Can Krans bleed?

[Cirque]

Good work. I think its possible some people were associating the humanoid form with how humans actually breath.

There was a very old episode of Star Trek that was about a silicon based life form attacking a mining colony. Turns out it was just protecting its young (insert moral here). From memory Spok (spelling) went into some discussion about how it may function.

I believe that the creature had highly acidic blood and used acid to borrow around through rock. If theres any Trekis here perhaps you could offer some information.

^^^Biol, chem student Saphire?^^^

[Saphire]

No, i just picked it up as i live my life.
Most of it\'s just guesswork and simple 2+2=4, though.

Wow, all that and i still didn\'t explain how Krans bleed. LOL! 8o


Anyways, the way Kran bleed would be very similar to a tree; Krans have a sort of sappy, sticky substance in what you could call their veins, which when it comes into contact with a un-bonded O2 molocule, becomes similar to a jell, which later hardens and falls off like any normal human\'s scab. After awhile, the Kran regenerates and it\'s wounded flesh flakes off, revealing a newer, shining - and most importantly unwouned - surface of silicon flesh.

[rumblebelly]

i\'m an old trekkie fan and i remember that episode the lifeform was like a big blob and it had a hard outer shell they had to use phazer\'s to break a piece off a piece so they could study it.
it was more like a large single cell organism but it was inteligent and spock did a mind meld with it to find out what it wanted. that\'s all i remember about that show it has been a long time since i saw that one  

[Kuiper7986]

If what you guys are saying is true, then most likely a Kran is not pure Silicon, its probabaly got some impurities.

[vordul]

Even if Krans wanted to breathe, they still couldn\'t.

A silicon-based life form means that its molecular building blocks are silicon-based.  Human beings are carbon-based, because we are composed of complex organic molecules with carbon backbones (think DNA, Krebs cycle, &c.).

Carbon\'s valence shell is half-empty/half-filled, so it allows for easy bonding with other carbon molecules, allowing it to form these complex chains (organic molecules).  Complex structures are the building blocks of all life on Earth.

Silicon has the same properties valence shell as a carbon molecule, so people generally thought: \"Well, if carbon-based life forms exist, why not silicon-based life forms?\"

BUT, and this is a large but:

The silicon atom is larger, and so its bonds with other elements are weaker.  Just look at what happens when two oxygen molecules bond to carbon/silicon; in one case we have carbon dioxide, in the other, sand.

So basically, Krans wouldn\'t be able to breathe (at least, not the air that a human could breathe), and if it didn\'t breathe, it couldn\'t possibly have any use for blood.  Of course, a Kran would be incapable of having complex structures like a cell, because of silicon\'s chemical properties, so it would be impossible for them to have muscles, or any means of physical locomotion other than being pushed by the wind.

Pure silicon forms into crystals, eventually, with enough heat and a silicon-seed.  The crystals would be extremely abnormal, so it doesn\'t make much sense that they could all just grow into humanoid shapes.

Of course, this is a fantasy world, and anything goes.  The Kran would be a being of magic, or something.  Science plausibility doesn\'t need to exist in video games -- of course, if it does, things make much more sense.

The point is, the Kran couldn\'t possibly have lungs (since they lack the basic properties to be able to have cellular structures).  As well, they wouldn\'t eat normal foods, since as a silicon-based life form, their metabolic processes would be based on silicon-based molecules, rather than carbon-based molecules (like a human).  And since the Kran can\'t have cells, once again, due to the chemical properties of the silicon atom, it can\'t have blood cells, it can\'t possibly garner any use for oxygen (which is used in human cells).  So, in short, Krans could not breathe.  Nor would they have blood.  Unless, of course, they had it for no reason.  \"It\'s a sort of magic!\"

So thinking of a Kran in any way approximating a human would be absurd in any scientific sense.  You\'d have to either blame magic for what they are, ignore the chemical/biological properties en masse, or somehow change what they are to afford for these errors.

Then again, it\'s fantasy.  People can think up whatever they want.

[SaintNuclear]

You need to read the Setting...
Krans eat mineral rich materials.
And since they eat, they need blood. Blood carries nutrients to all parts of the body, not only oxygen. And even if they don\'t have cells blood would be efficent for delivering the nutrients and oxygen to all parts of the body.

Think of a glass of water, you pour into it one of those concentrated yucky instant juices things. It takes alot of time for the concentrated juice to spread in the water. Now, if there was a network of tiny pipes that could deliver the juice to all parts of the glass, it would spread easier.

Same with blood vessels, they\'re there so the nutrients and oxygen will be delivered to all parts of the body faster. Krans eat, so they need blood vessels. The blood don\'t have to be red blood cells to be called blood.

Krans don\'t need lungs, as they breath through their skin. From the skin it reaches blood vessels, and gets carried to all parts of the body.

They don\'t necessarily dissolve due to the silicon and oxygen connection. But who said that Krans breath and their body becomes SiO2? Maybe they got 4 oxygen atoms attaching into each silicon molecule? Maybe 3? Or 1?.
I just read a bit about SiO (check this)), couldn\'t find much about SiO3 or 4.
From what I read about it, it seems like it could be what Krans are made of.

Oxygen gets attached to their skin, creating SiO2. One of the oxygen atoms break and attach to one of the near silicon atoms. The skin keeps attaching oxygen atoms into itself, and transferring them to the other silicon atoms.
The oxygen atoms slowly reach the blood vessels. In the blood vessels the oxygen atoms get attached to silicon atoms and form sand.
The sand (Kran blood) flows in the vessels.
From here it\'s just like human blood, only with molecules and atoms instead of cells. The oxygen leaves the sand molecules and gets attached to silicon atoms, forming SiO.

This probebly explains things. Can anyone that actually learned chemistry confirm this?

vordul
Pure silicon forms into crystals, eventually, with enough heat and a silicon-seed. The crystals would be extremely abnormal, so it doesn\'t make much sense that they could all just grow into humanoid shapes.

I think that this can definitly be answered with \"it\'s magic\". We shouldn\'t forget that Krans were created by magic afterall.

[karakth]

Good...Now we\'re getting somewhere

Let\'s look at the whole point of eating: Energy.

We use oxygen because when you react it with sugar (carbon-based) it gives off tons of energy which we can use to move about, think, etc.

What would a Kran do with Oxygen? It would have to eat silicon-based sugar (Si6H12O6) which can\'t really exist unless you create it at high temperatures and pressures.

What if perhaps a form of \"magic\" provides heat and pressure inside a Kran?

I still think it would work best if Kran were diatoms. Their body would function normally as a human being\'s, but the cells along the skin would provide a protective epidermis of silicon-based chemicals.

Also, silicon is very conductive, so I\'m guessing their brains would be largely silicon-based (i.e. The axons and dendrites of their neurons would be pure silicon).

Originally posted by SaintNuclear

Oxygen gets attached to their skin, creating SiO2. One of the oxygen atoms break and attach to one of the near silicon atoms. The skin keeps attaching oxygen atoms into itself, and transferring them to the other silicon atoms.
The oxygen atoms slowly reach the blood vessels. In the blood vessels the oxygen atoms get attached to silicon atoms and form sand.
The sand (Kran blood) flows in the vessels.
From here it\'s just like human blood, only with molecules and atoms instead of cells. The oxygen leaves the sand molecules and gets attached to silicon atoms, forming SiO.

What would be the point of that? And Krans wouldn\'t be made up of SiO, because the molecule is just too simple to support life.

Hmm...Then again, what if a Kran would work like this:

The main part of Krans would be made of one type of silicon-based compound, which responds differently when reacted with various chemicals.

Running down the Kran\'s middle, in the place of a spine is an organ which has a vast storage of different chemicals. This organ is connected via silicon neurons to the Kran\'s brain. When the brain gives the signal, the organ releases the type of chemical into an area of the Kran\'s body, making it react accordingly.

So, if a Kran wanted to move his finger, a message would be sent to the organ, which would then release the chemical into the finger area to make the silicon-based compound act accordingly.

To mantain this vast number of chemicals, the Kran would have to eat a lot of mineral-rich foods to get as many different chemicals as possible.

The chemicals could all require oxygen to make.

So, in effect, if a Kran stops breathing he will stop moving and functioning after a while (when the chemicals run out).

This explains why Krans move slowly as well as why they can go long period of time without oxygen.

And yes, I do realise that this goes against the background.

[AendarCallenlasse]

Magic.

There you now know how and why Krans function.

[Saphire]

LOL. This is fun... :]

[karakth]

You know what Aendar? And all you other people who go \"It\'s magic! No more explanation is needed, surely?\" are all living in medieval times. Which is alright since this is a medieval game. Here\'s an idea...While we\'re at it, let\'s pretend it\'s all the matrix so it doesn\'t have to make sense!

[SaintNuclear]

Originally posted by karakth
And yes, I do realise that this goes against the background.

Actually, it\'s not. You said that Krans need oxygen and minerals to maintain these chemicals they got, and in the Krans page it says they eat minerals and breath oxygen. So it doen\'t go against the background.

Originally posted by karakth
While we\'re at it, let\'s pretend it\'s all the matrix so it doesn\'t have to make sense!

lmfao

[dfryer]

I don\'t believe ordinary chemistry would be sufficient to explain the rocky Kran(s?) (Is the plural of Kran really Krans? Seems unnatural.)  Silicon-based lifeforms have been debated endlessly before, especially by Trekkies.  For all we know, however, \"ordinary\" chemistry isn\'t the way things work in the Planeshift world.  Supposedly Kran eat crystals, which are a form of nutrients.  Since magic in Planeshift seems to be related in some way to crystals, perhaps consuming these crystals provides both minerals and magical energies.  An injured Kran might just \"chip\", or perhaps some watery fluid would leak (maybe even oil! hmm... \"Kran oil beauty products\", wonder how those would sell..)  If instead of being truly \"rocky\" they simply are very thick-skinned and big boned, they must have a very peculiar digestive system if they are to eat rocks.  Having a biological explanation seems more satisfying than relying on Kran simply being magically-constructed golems of stone.

So yes, \"magic\" is how they work, but what we\'re looking for is *details*.  Do Kran have organic brains?  How about muscles? Or is their movement accomplished by magical currents causing rock to deform?

[SaintNuclear]

There are definitly magical aspects in the Krans (I prefer to call them Krans ), and it\'s not all scientific.
I think that the movement, for example, is magical.
Let\'s take an arm for example. It\'s ordered to move from the Kran\'s brain, it needs nutrients (or chemical reaction, whatever) to be able to move, but the thing that actually move it is magic.

Originally posted by dfryer
If instead of being truly \"rocky\" they simply are very thick-skinned and big boned, they must have a very peculiar digestive system if they are to eat rocks.

But they\'re not just thick-skinned and big boned. They\'re made of silicon. They were created by Talad from the rocks. They might have organic materials in them, etc, but most of their body is silicon.

[vordul]

The Kran would be incapable of having blood for reasons I already stated.  Silicon-based life form, by definition, means that it\'s building blocks are based on silicon.  Which, basically, means that you replace all the carbon atoms in a human with silicon, and you\'d have a silicon-based being.  Of course, no cells would be created, nor complex organic molecules (needed to make blood, needed to make cells, needed to make * in the human body).

Of course magic is the only explanation, because a Kran could not possibly exist in reality.  So don\'t try to give reasons why a Kran can exist, or why they can bleed, because it just can\'t happen.

They should just remove the background page and say \"it\'s magic!\" because it\'s just making people think absurd, silly things.

I like the whole magic reasoning far more than I like misrepresented information and pseudo-scientific lies.

[Saphire]

Who the hell said blood must be organic?

Water, filled with minerals and metals and various other chemical compounds. A chemical for sealing wounds, and a chemical for transportation of various things.

There\'s the krans\' blood.


You can think whatever you want, \"it\'s magic!\" but have you ever thought that it might actually be fun to think of how something works other then saying \"it\'s magic!\"?