From heros to zeros!

[dfryer]

I feel the oil argument is overused, and lacking in substance.  The US government has fairly good relationship to the Saudis, and I don\'t think Iraq\'s oil production rivals saudi arabias (although I\'m just making stuff up here!)  I do believe that Bush et al. moved against Iraq because they had 1) finally felt the sting of random acts of destruction which had so far only happened to countries with really wierd names 2) wanted to hit back, Afghanistan was a really hollow victory 3) Saddam is a Bad Man 4) Iraq was percieved as a \"hostile\" country, i.e. even though it *didn\'t* have WMDs, they would be willing to harbour people who would attack the US.  

As for the whole prisoner abuse scandal, it is truly an atrocity, but one that has happened time and time again - rape and pillage follow closely on the heels of war.  If your army becomes a place full of people who have gotten themselves worked up to despise a group of people so utterly that they cease to see them as human, nothing but tragedy will occur.

I was under the impression that america had less than half a billion people, I thought it was more like 300-400 million.  Then again, my facts probably came from my parents 1967 World Book Encyclopedia (One day, man might reach the moon! In 20 years everything will be nuclear!)  Revolution in a nation like america 1) won\'t happen and 2) will cause more bloodshed, more extremism, and will change nothing for the better.

I\'d substantiate my arguments, but that would take thought

[Taldor]

10: You can\'t judge the actions of an entire army by the actions of a few soldiers.  It took a soldier himself to report these abuses to his commanding officers!
Bush is not responsible for actions he did not know about. -_-

Bush is resposible for the entire USA government, including the army and his ministers...

12: If you don\'t like America, move here and change it.

I can\'t: you have to be born in the USA to become president :-(

[Davis]

Originally posted by Pogopuschel
Not entirely true. The official statement of most European governments was they didn\'t support the war without the vote of the UN, because the reasons/the right to intervene was questionable to say the least. However not every country stating so had a big majority of the population behind them. Furthermore all Europeans can\'t be seen as \"one opinion\", exactly like not all Americans can be frowned upon for the bad treatment of POWs.

That was the official statement. France, Germany and Russia were all benefiting from the Oil for Food program, and Russia was selling stuff to Iraq. Also, they all had companies with business in Iraq. That\'s the reason they didn\'t support the US, not because they thought it was wrong.

As does the war in Iraq help many American companies. From an American point of view I can understand why companies from countries that opposed the war are excluded from the program to rebuild what has been destroyed during the war, but some were shut out even before their opinion was openly stated. (Not too fond of argueing about money here )

It seems to me like you are entirely failing to address the Oil for Food program here. Don\'t forget that this was money that was supposed to feed Iraqis, and was instead making European politicians richer.

Originally posted by Taldor
I can\'t: you have to be born in the USA to become president :-(

Actually, you just have to live here for a certain number of years.

[Uyaem]

Originally posted by Davis

Originally posted by Pogopuschel
Not entirely true. The official statement of most European governments was they didn\'t support the war without the vote of the UN, because the reasons/the right to intervene was questionable to say the least. However not every country stating so had a big majority of the population behind them. Furthermore all Europeans can\'t be seen as \"one opinion\", exactly like not all Americans can be frowned upon for the bad treatment of POWs.

That was the official statement. France, Germany and Russia were all benefiting from the Oil for Food program, and Russia was selling stuff to Iraq. Also, they all had companies with business in Iraq. That\'s the reason they didn\'t support the US, not because they thought it was wrong.

Okay you\'re partly right, at least my government officially stated to \"not support the US in whatsoever way\", which is a stupid statement (like any unconditional statement is anyway) and they were/are still bashed by the opposition for that one . They added the UN-part later on, basically saying they were understood wrong. Whether one can trust this is up to each individual\'s opinion (I don\'t believe that part either).
Of course every country had a few companies profiting there, like in every other country, but the importance of that is questionable.
I agree that any government always mentions only the \'noble\' reasons publically (whether they helped make the decision or not). As is probably was the case here, but I don\'t think it was because of the few companies making profits down there but more because they had no resources (money + personnel) to support another contingency of armed forces in yet another part of the world (Somalia, former Yugoslavia, Afghanistan).
There are countries with >80 million people who have but 280.000 soldiers with a constantly decreasing budget instead of a constantly increasing one, you know. (sry, got no English link on that).

Originally posted by Taldor
I can\'t: you have to be born in the USA to become president :-(

Actually, you just have to live here for a certain number of years.

True for any governor, but not for the president IMHO. But I think there\'s already an Act on it\'s way that changes that (at least it has been suggested) so Taldor might actually get the chance.

It seems to me like you are entirely failing to address the Oil for Food program here. Don\'t forget that this was money that was supposed to feed Iraqis, and was instead making European politicians richer.

I fail to see how politicians directly draw money from that, last time I checked that\'s not how economy works here.
Otherwise I would have become a polititian, not a damn software dev.

[lynx_lupo]

Ok, just one thing about oil proces to clear up. Another big reason why our oil is much more expensive is that we use purer oil! The engines we use need it - a car driven in Europe would collapse in US after some 50Mm...

[SaintNuclear]

Originally posted by Davis
Also, they all had companies with business in Iraq. That\'s the reason they didn\'t support the US, not because they thought it was wrong.

There were \\ are american companies in Iraq too, so saying the europeans didn\'t support the US because they had companies in Iraq is pretty stupid.

[DepthBlade]

Ok good good, we stayed away from continuing flames Just to point out something that has to do with the War on Iraq but breaks off into Canada and USA. It was convenient enough when my country decided that the War on Iraq was crap and we wouldn\'t help, the USA suddenly found madd cow in the beef we send to them and then closed their boarders and continually do so saying they are finding more and more cases when we do not? Its true there was one or two one based in USA and one in Alberta, Canada? The cow found in the states claimed to be from Canada RIGHTT!!? I think just another way to show the little brother that the big one makes the decisions Anyways when they decided to put all these boarder limits up FOR SO LONG! They bankrupted literally thousands of cattle farmers and what not including my uncle so thanks! Another reason I dislike your government with passion!

[TheTaintedSoul]

Indeed, complements to everyone for not flaming others just because of different opinions. And Canada is cool, too bad the immigration is so strict else i moved there right now

[snow_RAveN]

the fault is everyones form the Us to the radicals

U.s Was in the wrong for attacking iraq instead they should haved introduce a culture revelution (to free its people) instead of useing violence to solve violence Which only makes things worse
also their forgien policy which countless people hate ( iam netural on the subject) esp the weapons (dealing) part

And also the failure to commit of troops and equiment into iraq. this is particaly due to the ordinary american who wants the soilders brought home From where they are needed badly

I belive this is war is not to be fought on the the desert but on hearts and minds that live on it.
you cant teach a man if he doesent want to learn he has to be willing if not he will only have spite for his teachers
They have to be willing to learn form a moderate muslim and change themselves and their country for the better

[SaintNuclear]

Originally posted by snow_RAveN
U.s Was in the wrong for attacking iraq instead they should haved introduce a culture revelution (to free its people) instead of useing violence to solve violence Which only makes things worse

Actually, countries (atleast Israel and the US) tried stirring the iraqies to make coups \\ assasinate Saddam since atleast \'91, probebly before.

And you know, if it won\'t go by the brain, it\'ll probebly go with a Howitzer.

[Davis]

Originally posted by SaintNuclear
There were \\ are american companies in Iraq too, so saying the europeans didn\'t support the US because they had companies in Iraq is pretty stupid.

It was definately a factor.

[tygerwilde]

I think we need to do something about our government too. we have a total screw up for a president. he didn\'t even get in by popular vote, he had to rely on the electorial college. we\'re SUPPOSED to be a DEMOCRACY, in other words, my vote should count, but his presidency proves that we aren\'t and it doesn\'t. as a nation, we aught to be able to rectify this, but we can\'t without rebelling. it totally sucks a$$ho1e big time.

If the american public can\'t be trusted to vote in the right president, then why even pretend that we\'re a democracy?

[tygerwilde]

btw, depth, where at in canada do you live, I\'m visiting my mother in law next year in maine, and my wife wants to visit canada while we\'re there.

it\'ll be my first time out of america.

[Davis]

Originally posted by tygerwilde
I think we need to do something about our government too. we have a total screw up for a president. he didn\'t even get in by popular vote, he had to rely on the electorial college. we\'re SUPPOSED to be a DEMOCRACY, in other words, my vote should count, but his presidency proves that we aren\'t and it doesn\'t. as a nation, we aught to be able to rectify this, but we can\'t without rebelling. it totally sucks a$$ho1e big time.

If the american public can\'t be trusted to vote in the right president, then why even pretend that we\'re a democracy?

While we\'re at it, let\'s get rid of term limits on senators and start some more political parties.

[DepthBlade]

OT :heh right now I am located in Estevan, Saskatchewan Canada, The province is flat prarie land with farming of all kinds here we distribute wheat to most of the world! Its so flat you can\'t even lose your dog stand on a stool and you can see it running a few miles out Once I graduate ill be off to Saskatoon to live with my real dad which will be june 4th approximately!

  In the past, war was a benefactor to the depression, it gave jobs to millions. Most people that were starving and hungry were saved by world war 2! War also is a excuse to advance in technology! Maybe this was the U.S plan start a war so they can conduct biochemical testing in nevada and create robot monsters who can destroy whole armies, or MAYBE NOT !