Klyros!

[Kuiper7986]

I\'m sure the Klyros would most likely be hovering rather than flying. Besides walking, that\'s what I believe.

[Seytra]

I\'ve thought about that after you mentioned it. So you\'re saying that they\'d not be able to lift themselves into air but would need to climb a high tower and could then glide down or, given an upstream, gain height, like a human in an hangglider? I\'m not inclined to think so, because there have been ancient dinosaurs that could fly and these had about the same size IIRC.
Therefore, it mostly depends on the body structure, which has been said to be made for flying, at least when it comes to weigt. I can, however, see the need for a means of directing the flight, which could, IMO, be accomplished by winglike extremities near the feet. These would be able to be folded in almost completely because they wouldn\'t need to be big or strong, as they don\'t lift anything. These would be like a fan, in result (not an electric one! More like the basic, hand-powered fans made of paper or fabric, with wood or plastic supports). They would probably be on the back of the legs (as opposed to the front) to be not damaged as easily when flying low. They would need to be located there for better control (like on an aeroplane). However, there could also be stabilisers on the sides of the legs that are modeled in the same fashion that improve vertical stability and serve as steering method for the vertical direction (also like in aeroplanes and birds\' tails), because the body weight is low so it might not suffice to ensure a steady flight.
Seeing bats, however, this doesn\'t have to be necessary, but one should consider it, maybe to make up for the less aerodynamical body form and the arms (especially when carrying stuff (not much, though, due to weight)).

Or did I get you all wrong about \"hovering\"?

[Melbourne]

Originally posted by Seytra
I\'ve thought about that after you mentioned it. So you\'re saying that they\'d not be able to lift themselves into air but would need to climb a high tower and could then glide down or, given an upstream, gain height, like a human in an hangglider? I\'m not inclined to think so, because there have been ancient dinosaurs that could fly and these had about the same size IIRC.

In a game like this I\'m not sure I\'d like people having full flight.  The only use for full flight would be for getting from point A to point B faster, any other use could make it unbalanced.  What I like is like stated above.  Perhaps they could give the klyros a dowble jump where they flap their wings the second time to gain a little more height, then you just hold the jump button to spread you wings and slowly float down.  It would seem similar to many platform games.  It could also be that you could only float for a short time before your wings give out and you fall to the ground.  This, I believe will give the klyros a special ability that makes them unique but won\'t unbalance the game too much.

[Seytra]

The description states that Klyros are \"fast in (...) air\", which doesn\'t sound like hovering to me. However, as I already said, _full_ flight would not be available for the average Klyros in my system anyway. They\'d need to especially train flight in order to extend the flight duration they can achieve beyond the basic time, simply because it takes much effort to fly. Therefore, the player of a wannabe full-flight Klyros would need to sacrifice other options in order to even be on the right track. Like a mage will have to sacrifice most warrior-options and vice-versa. This way, a full-flight Klyros would be a long way to go and could not become overly powerful in other skills. Talking about mages, full flight would not upset game balance if there were magical ways of achieving flight, at least for some time. If Klyros can fly (and be it only minutes), I\'m sure some mage will come up with a spell to fly as well, for about the same duration anyway. Such a spell would drain mana, obviously, because otherwise the mage would be too powerful.
So even if flight were of use for travelling faster, it would not be useful for transportation of goods beyond the own backpack and arms (too weak). Shooting arrows or crossbows would be near impossible in-flight due to the wings getting in the way and general steadiness issues. Magic, OTOH, could be cast, however, failure rate would skyrocket as you\'d need to concentrate very hard while doing serious physical work.
Therefore, I don\'t think it would set off the game balance to allow real flight. It\'s not for warriors, because Klyros can\'t even wear heavy armor and couldn\'t carry the stuff needed for a warrior.
It\'s not for mages, as they wouldn\'t be able to cast very well.
It\'s also not for merchants, as it takes much effort that would be better spent on acquisition.

All of these can use the usual flying animals way better, though they\'ll cost.

So this leaves artists and scouts, and even the latter would not necessary benefit due to everything being underground.

There\'d be serious thought going into a wannabe full-flight Klyros AFAICS, so I would not expect too many to be around, at least for long time.

OK, one could take children for rides for lower fares as would be charged for the flying animals, but that\'d mainly be for desperate artists...

[Melbourne]

Then it seems like there is no point to full flight other then the ability to look cool.  Functionaly its not for this game and there is really no good reason for it.  The system I prefer is not really hovering but gliding, they don\'t have the ability to gain height but they can certainly prevent them selves from losing height.  With gliding, you have the ability to move rather fast, and if you got off from a good height you can go in for a dive, then pull out and keep your speed.

[Seytra]

Originally posted by Melbourne
Then it seems like there is no point to full flight other then the ability to look cool. Functionaly its not for this game and there is really no good reason for it.

There in fact _is_, it\'s just not uber. The mere ability to gain height is useful. The average, untrained Klyros could easily cross a river or gap if it can gain height; if it can\'t, it can\'t. It would not be able to scout enemy cities, or follow someone, unless it\'s well trained for extended duration. And, as I said, one can be an artist in this special field. It just wouldn\'t be so terribly useful that it would be \"the\" thing, without which one would not survive.

Originally posted by Melbourne
The system I prefer is not really hovering but gliding, they don\'t have the ability to gain height but they can certainly prevent them selves from losing height.  With gliding, you have the ability to move rather fast, and if you got off from a good height you can go in for a dive, then pull out and keep your speed.

This would be of less use than full flight, since it requires a starting jump (especially unsuited in an underground setting). Therefore, it\'s use for the player would be reduced further while still taking the same effort to include it in the game. Actually, it takes even more effort, because there already are full-flight creatures in the game; this system would need to be amended in order to limit Klyros\' flight to gliding while allowing full flight to other creatures.

Without this limitation, it could be copied or reused, because one would only need to have the exact same variable for Klyros as for the other creatures that can fly. Just give the average Klyros, say, a value of 15 while the other flying creatures have, say, 1000, and you\'re set. The Klyros can increase this value by training, just as increasing the chance to hit by training, or increase mana, or whatever.

Therefore, the development effort would be increased while the chances of it actually being used would be decreased further, so this might cross the point of being worth the effort at all. Anyway, I\'d really like to have Klyros fly in one way or the other, just to see the average newbie jump off the edge of the first level and fall like a rock, because of too much heavy stuff in the backpack
But I\'d much prefer full-flight. Maybe one could even \"stand still\" at one point in the air if trained. That would be nice, but not uber as well, as circling would essentially work, too.

[Melbourne]

Originally posted by Seytra
This would be of less use than full flight, since it requires a starting jump. Therefore, it\'s use for the player would be reduced further while still taking the same effort to include it in the game. Actually, it takes even more effort, because there already are full-flight creatures in the game; this system would need to be amended in order to limit Klyros\' flight to gliding while allowing full flight to other creatures.

Without this limitation, it could be copied or reused, because one would only need to have the exact same variable for Klyros as for the other creatures that can fly. Just give the average Klyros, say, a value of 15 while the other flying creatures have, say, 1000, and you\'re set. The Klyros can increase this value by training, just as increasing the chance to hit by training, or increase mana, or whatever.

Anyway, I\'d really like to have Klyros fly in one way or the other, just to see the average newbie jump off the edge of the first level and fall like a rock, because of too much heavy stuff in the backpack

Well it was just an idea. I\'m not really a big fan of players having full flight.  As you said flight won\'t be all that usefull , only thing worthwhile is for travel or exploring.  In that way it only seems like a novelty.  The devs have stated they are against teleportation of any kind.  Flight and teleportation are similar in the way that they are mainly used for traveling long distances fast and escaping enemy groups.
Even though it would be funny to watch people jump off cliffs to their doom.

[Seytra]

Originally posted by Melbourne
Well it was just an idea. I\'m not really a big fan of players having full flight.  As you said flight won\'t be all that usefull , only thing worthwhile is for travel or exploring.  In that way it only seems like a novelty.  The devs have stated they are against teleportation of any kind.  Flight and teleportation are similar in the way that they are mainly used for traveling long distances fast and escaping enemy groups.
Even though it would be funny to watch people jump off cliffs to their doom.

Well, yes, they\'re somewhat similar, but flight is more limited as it still takes some time and transport weight is rather limited. Still, it provides options teleportation does not, but overall, I believe it can be managed to blend well.
Teleportation, however, can be used for swift and powerful attacks, backstabbing and even within buildings, whereas flight cannot. Not to mention that you can escape out of imprisonment with teleportation, not with flight (if the captor isn\'t utterly stupid, that is ).
Therefore, if teleportation can be successfully implemented in a MMORPG (not necessarily PS, if the devs don\'t want it there), then surely can full flight.

I must admit that at first I also thought full flight would be uber powerful, while after thinking about it when reading / writing the replies, I had it down to uselessnes. IOW, it scales, it just hasn\'t been used anywhere I know of so there isn\'t any experience to build upon.

I\'m sort of pro-choice. I\'d like players to have the exact same options that NPCs have. This is not limited to what I\'d like to play as, it\'s a general opinion. Some things may be too hard to do to be worth the effort (like players becoming gods / demons), but there are many things that just need some careful thought and experimentation.
And I\'m a big fan of creative use of things. Like using a firebolt attack spell to heat a kettle. These things, however, are the hardest to implement in computer games as they need to be thought of in advance. I hated Neverwinter Nights for it\'s lack of flexibility in the \"creation\" of artifacts, for example, and I don\'t wish PS to exclude options that can be worthwile.

So if we (the PS community as a whole, including devs) can\'t, even by experimentration, come up with a way to do it properly (i.e., if we end up with everyone or nobody being Klyros), the (full) flight option needs to be removed, but I\'d like to at least give it a try.

[Kiva]

In order for a bird to stay in the air, it needs to beat it\'s wings X amount of times related to wing size and weight. If any of you have seen the movie Monty Python and the quest for the holy grail, you might remember them talking a lot about swallows having to beat their wings 56 times per minute to stay in the air, that\'s why they can\'t beat fast enough to carry a coconut (they would be too heavy).

Now, a Klyros is a bit of the same as a Klyros\' wings aren\'t big enough to carry a fully grown Klyros body for a long period of time, meaning it will only be able to sway through the air if it jumped from a high place with moderate speed. So unless you find a way to expand the wing size of a Klyros, you will never be able to obtain full flight, simply because they weigh too much.

Another example is the albatros. It has huge wings, but an even heavier body and they have big problems getting into the air in the first place, simply because they are so heavy, and it\'s not uncommon if they fall down because they\'re too heavy to steer around a big obstacle.

Try doing a little research on the subject before you request Klyros\' to have full flight, etc.


Oh, and don\'t expect the Klyros race to be out with CB. As far as what I\'ve been told, they haven\'t even made concept art for it yet.

[Seytra]

Originally posted by Gronomist
In order for a bird to stay in the air, it needs to beat it\'s wings X amount of times related to wing size and weight. If any of you have seen the movie Monty Python and the quest for the holy grail, you might remember them talking a lot about swallows having to beat their wings 56 times per minute to stay in the air, that\'s why they can\'t beat fast enough to carry a coconut (they would be too heavy).

I didn\'t like the movie\'s idea and therefore I didn\'t watch it. Also, I don\'t know if some comedy movie is the best source of information...

Originally posted by Gronomist
Now, a Klyros is a bit of the same as a Klyros\' wings aren\'t big enough to carry a fully grown Klyros body for a long period of time, meaning it will only be able to sway through the air if it jumped from a high place with moderate speed. So unless you find a way to expand the wing size of a Klyros, you will never be able to obtain full flight, simply because they weigh too much.

Another example is the albatros. It has huge wings, but an even heavier body and they have big problems getting into the air in the first place, simply because they are so heavy, and it\'s not uncommon if they fall down because they\'re too heavy to steer around a big obstacle.

Try doing a little research on the subject before you request Klyros\' to have full flight, etc.

But I _did_. That\'s why I mentioned this ancient flying dinosaur. It didn\'t have feathers and it was pretty big, while it\'s wings weren\'t as huge as one could expect. It is supposed to have had full flight nevertheless.

originating from
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/9020/pterosaur/index.htm#largest

What is the largest known pterosaur?

Until the 1970\'s, the largest known pterosaur was the North American Pteranodon, a genus with a 8-meter (25 feet) wingspan. Then along came a pterosaur with a wingspan that may have been twice as wide. Discovered by a team headed by Wann Langston, this behemoth was named Quetzalcoatlus, after the Aztec feathered-serpent god. Based on extrapolations from smaller pterosaurs, the partial skeleton would have fleshed out a creature with an estimated wingspan of (hold your breath) 20 meters (65 feet)! This is actually the upper range of the estimates, and most paleontologists accept a more modest spread of 15 meters (50 feet). Biomechanists wondered how a creature with such a wingspan could possibly flap its wings without placing enormous stress on its wing bones, but the general consensus is that it could have flown, albeit with slow, deliberate flappings of the wings, as many large sea birds do today. By the way, Quetzalcoatlus is not only the largest known pterosaur, it is also the last.

As one can see from the images of these, the wings weren\'t disproportionally large compared to their bodies. This means that a Klyros could achieve full flight given that (as already stated in the description) their body weight is quite small compared to their size. This is possible, because if the average bird did have the same bone structure as a human, it wouldn\'t be able to fly, either. Also, the description clearly states that the Klyros are physically less durable because of this fact, so it\'s more than just some minor decrease in weight (as you recall, elves usually weigh considerably less than a human of the same size, but are not considered to be much less durable). A Klyros of, say, 1.8m height would, IMO, weigh about 25 - 30 kg. This even _is_ possible for humans, as people who have eating disorders are reported to weigh around 40 kg with a size that would require ~ 80. If we now give them birdlike bones, they will weigh around 25 kg even without further modification. Therefore, assuming an optimised skeleton (fewer and thinner bones), birdlike bones, less flesh (just muscles and some fat to keep them warm), could easily bring them down, even accounting for the additional weight of the wings. As for the wing size: do you know what a bat wing looks like? it can be folded to a tiny space but when unfolded it is really huge compared to this. The only picture tere is of a Klyros does only hint at the wingspan of it\'s wings, but what I can imagine given this image it looks reasonable to me.

Originally posted by Gronomist
Oh, and don\'t expect the Klyros race to be out with CB. As far as what I\'ve been told, they haven\'t even made concept art for it yet.

I know that, but that does not mean it\'s bad to discuss the options, does it? On the contrary, if a \"theory\" or a \"plan\" on it has been worked out _before_ any concept art is being made, no wark is wasted due to changes of the concept while in mid-creation of the relevant art.

[Melbourne]

Originally posted by Gronomist
Try doing a little research on the subject before you request Klyros\' to have full flight, etc.

And you should do your research. If you would have actually looked into it, you would have realized that humanoid lizard creatures with wings don\'t exist.

I\'m well aware of the mechanics of flight, but I don\'t really care.  As long as it\'s not too far out there and benefits gameplay, I\'ll give it a chance.(unless it\'s a stupid idea)

Seytra
 I didn\'t like the movie\'s idea and therefore I didn\'t watch it.

BLASPHEMER!