How can role-playing be encouraged?

[Krissanasli]

After going through the whole database at mpogd, I found this game to be one of the five graphical RPGs that actually claimed to support role-playing. I don\'t need to spell out what this means, for PlaneShift and for online games in general...

As far as I could see when I logged on, there\'s a lot of potential for role-playing, but also a lot of things to discourage it. I\'m going to try to offer some solutions to the problems I\'ve encountered.

The first, and the most lethal to role-players of every kind, is the shout channel. Nobody wants to hear OOC chit-chat in the middle of a plot climax, or at any time when he or she is seriously role-playing. I couldn\'t find any option to mute this channel, but if there  is one, it should probably be added to the player guide - make no mistake, the shout channel can and probably will turn off a good number of role-players.

There\'s also the \"/me\" command... This is a minor thing, but it would be nice if there were an emit option as well. It would add variety and make things more interesting to read.

Another problem is the hybrid nature of this game: you\'re just as likely to find role-players as you are to find hack&slashers. The fact that all players have both a job and combat skills also blurs them together. To get around this, I propose letting every player, at any point in the game, pick between several \"playing styles\" - role-playing,  socializing, action and PVP. The \"who\" button would show not only names, but also playing styles, letting players know whether it\'ll be a quiet night at the arena or a bustling free-for-all.

Being allowed to do something besides hacking monsters is also useful to role-players. If some spells were purely utilitarian, and if a multiplayer element was added to the crafting skills, it would give players a way to interact meaningfully without having to crack open a poor monster\'s skull in the process.

Finally, role-playing is a minimalist affair. It doesn\'t need complex graphics, sophisticated tech or anything of the sort - in fact, it doesn\'t need graphics at all. It often relies more on the spirit of its players than on any gimmick. A very nice thing to have is a solid options menu, which allowed players with less than 1 Ghz in their processor to tone down the detail level. NWN allowed players to turn off pretty much everything... This is part of the reason why tabletop veterans play it.

[dfryer]

I don\'t need to spell out what this means, for PlaneShift and for online games in general...

Please do.  Some of us have a hard time determining where roleplaying fits in between hack & slash and a chatroom.

Presumably the shout command will have a limited range in the next or future release.  Someone in the dungeon will not be heard by someone in the city streets (unless it\'s a scream of ultimate suffering...)

I think multiplayer interactions in crafting and magic would be a big plus-  it\'s easy enough for people to team up and hack on a monster, but since the social aspect is very important in roleplaying, multiplayer \"non-combat\" options should be encouraged.  Bear in mind though, that this could be difficult to implement well - I think that the developers would like to have something playable working, as opposed to a whole list of \"really great ideas\" that never get finished because they just keep getting bigger.

Graphics wise, we hope that the Crystalspace engine gets better - switching to skeletal animation makes the game easier on memory but harder on the processor.  Realistically, the game can only be \"toned down\" so far, but I also hope for some scaleability here.

[Krissanasli]

Please do.

I was trying to suggest that PlaneShift is unique, and that the internet seriously needs more games like it. Beyond that, I could only wail at the huge number of games that look identical. It jaded me that so many games promoted themselves by saying \"you can kill monsters, trade items and much, much more\" or \"do everything you want\" when I wanted a lot more than a killing spree.

Some of us have a hard time determining where roleplaying fits in between hack & slash and a chatroom.

There\'s an easy answer: nowhere. It doesn\'t fit between hack&slash and chatroom. Nothing does, except maybe Everquest clones. I\'ve met a lot of role-players who told me they hated sitting around and talking, and a lot of role-players who were more interested in the art of expression than in what they were really expressing. The thing that makes role-playing what it is is a devotion to the character - an interesting character who beats up people for a living can be just as enjoyable as an interesting character who gossips all day. It\'s something that, to a large extent, determines the player\'s actions rather than being a part of them.

One of the ways to tell if a game is serious about RPing is to see whether there\'s anything to do beside combat. This isn\'t because there\'s something RPish about non-combat options, but because hack&slashes typically focus on fighting. When I saw the words \"realism\" and \"civilian\" in Planeshift\'s presentation, it was like rediscovering my innocence... Finally, there was a game where I could really play whatever role I liked!

I think that the developers would like to have something playable working, as opposed to a whole list of \"really great ideas\" that never get finished because they just keep getting bigger.

You mean, like crouching and climbing?
Anyway, that really is a problem... A quick way to solve it would be to incorporate \"sparring\" (fighting without causing damage) once the combat animations were ready.  Sometimes, it\'s not about adding new features, but removing the built-in limitations of those you already have.

[Seytra]

Yes, RP really depends on the RPer. However, ppl. who just want to level quickly will in any case ignore any RP features. Therefore, we need to _actively drive away_ the levellers, instead of only giving more opportunities for RP. We need to make it _impossible_ to level-grind, to harvest, to grief, etc.. This will leave only the ppl. who are at least somewhat serious about RP or at least who are not into disrupting the gameworld experience.
I mean, one is a lot more likely to RP if everybody else does it. Ppl. who dislike it will most likely quit or start to grief, making themselves prone to being reported to The Mods[TM] and banned.
Also, less-hardcore RPers can easily be driven away from RPing if they consistently encounter non-RP, which is another reason why we need to _actively get rid_ of as many non-RPers as we can.

[Krissanasli]

Actually, there are a few easy ways to enforce RP. I\'ve seen them in a small number of MUDs and PBPs, as well as most of the MUSHes out there. While some of them wouldn\'t be available for a graphical game (I\'m talking about the free-form aspect and the lack of eye candy), a few could be incorporated. I say \"could\" because they won\'t be - this game strives for the middle ground. Everything on the site and forums points to that.

-player applications (this would definitely cut down on the number of players... In fact, it might actually be a valid idea when the game gets too big)
-moderated skill gain (that is, you only earn skill points if the moderators hand them over, and can only write a petition for skills if several people agree to sign it for you)
-spray \"RP enforced\" all across the webside, the install program and the game\'s splash screen.
-ensure that monsters can\'t be killed, iron can\'t be mined and fish can\'t be harvested by newbies without some assistance.
-institute permadeath, a full PK policy and other pro-RP measures (believe me, I\'ve seen full PK policies that encouraged RP tremendously)
-slow down the pace of combat to make it too boring for action-seekers, but enjoyable to role-players (who might use the extra time to emote and taunt each other)

The game can still appeal to role-players without these things, though. Role-playing is mostly a trait of the players, not the game itself... Though the game might contribute to this playing style, in its own little ways. A \"think\" command (\\think in the chat window) would go a long way to improving RP, believe it or not... This is actually one of the most popular commands in RPI MUDs, even the ones that don\'t feature psionic PCs. A MUD admin once described her fondest memory as a chat between two characters - a noble and his servant - who, in between gusts of pretty dialog, expressed their worst hatred of each other using the \"think\" command.

One suggestion (and I\'m very serious about this) is to create role-playing societies... OOC guilds whose aim is to \"spread the word\" and, among other things, encourage new players to join the fun. They would do this through a variety of ways: RP logs (stories posted in the RP forum) of long-forgotten events to show the wonderful adventures they went through, engage in RP with hack&slashers in an effort to bring these towards the \"light side\" (or at least pull them somewhere into the grey area) and/or create plots (real, natural plots, not the stuff an admin sprinkles on a bored player society) that can only really be solved through role-playing. Things like RP seminars, while useful in their own way, would only appeal to people who were already interested in RP.

What do you think about this idea? And if there\'s already a RP society somewhere on these forums, where do I sign up?

[Cyberchu]

If the planeshift world is going to be big why not have and area where the hack & slashers could go (preferable somewhere far, far away)where few RPs will go (Perhaps just a few difficult quests there).

Also you could make player quests; i.e. Player X is a blacksmith and Player Y is a miner.

Player X goes and tells the tavern keeper that he wants some rare ore, player Y later talks to the tavern keeper and accepts the quest to mine some rare ore.
When player Y returns, the tavern owner gives him some tria or something. Then player x arrives and payes the tavern owner for the ore. If player X never comes back the taver owner then sells it to a shop.

[Orikhra]

I know this wont happen but i would like to see a seperate server for hack and slashers, and another for the RPers. This way both parties will be happy, the hack and slashers wil be happy because they wont have RPers on thier backs for wrecking a storyline or the such. And the RPers will be happy that they are in an enviroment that every1 roleplays making it much more comftable and enjoyable to roleplay. Im aware that there probaly wont be 2 servers, but we can dream cant we.

However, ppl. who just want to level quickly

I came to belive that there would be no leveling and that you would only get extra skill talents. Talking of which, having no visible levels would encourage RPing because you couldnt go around saying \'im level 45 charcter, your only level 12, feel my wrath mwhahahaa\' it just shouldnt happen when RPing.

[Danny]

Hello,

Because ps is a blank canvas you shouldnt really relie on ideas from members placed by from other games.. and go for wacky new ones because in doing this specialy quests you increase the RP feel of the game.. already there is the obvious RP feel being that your character is not human.. and the point that you get different skills and not levels is also good but with the tallents i think that instead of having just the one you should be able to have them all.. but they strength of that tallent should be determind by how much you use it..

i.e say you want to be a cook you dont just choose it on your character.. you earn it.. you have to go out and cook things... the more you cook the more exp you get towards your cooking skill.. and the same for the other skills.. because this would give a better sense of it being RP rather than that skill just suddenly being there allready... it would also mean that you could go out and hunt for your food or stay with in the city walls and pick mushrooms and vegatables.. or interact them with other players and there tallents such as ones that have a farming skill of a high level could grow crops witch a player trying to raise its cookery skill could purchase off of him...

Many thanks,
   Danny

[Krissanasli]

Because ps is a blank canvas you shouldnt really relie on ideas from members placed by from other games

Some people aren\'t \"placed\" from other games - they come with their own ideas, ideas that might have been the very reason they left those games. As for Molecular Blue being a pre-alpha version, I find it a wonderful reason to talk about role-play, especially since right now, even though there\'s nothing to do *but* role-play, nobody does it consistently... And few people do it at all.

already there is the obvious RP feel being that your character is not human

That doesn\'t always generate an RP feel... In fact, it rarely does, since it demands a greater emotional effort on the player\'s part. You can\'t relate to a truly strange creature as well as to a human (and by \"truly strange\", I don\'t mean cat-people or elves...), which means you can\'t role-play one as easily. Since every character *is* human, more or less, I suppose it\'s not an issue. Sure, there might be slight differences between the kran and the xacha, but not enough to make them truly distinct.

because this would give a better sense of it being RP rather than that skill just suddenly being there allready...

Gaining skills detracts from the role-playing experience, and adds a new (unworthy) goal to crafting, fishing or whatever. I agree that learning new \"job\" skills ought to be allowed, under certain restraints and in ways that encourage RP. In the end, one must consider that a person will only be physically able to do one job (or, in some rare cases, two) at peak efficiency, so having more than one \"job\" skill wouldn\'t realistically make a difference to the overall economy.

Anyway, it doesn\'t matter whether people can grow crops, build toy tops or fit pearls into a necklace, as defined by a set of skills... Role-playing has little to do with that. In the right contexts, they can encourage both RP and powergaming.

[Danny]

Gaining skills detracts from the role-playing experience

your just being lazy... having a none human character no matter what you say is already role playing... and gaining skills is even more so... if the skill was just given to you it would be boring and unlike you i dont want to stand around doing nothing... id rather gain that skill and be proud of it than be given the skill for nothing...

many thanks,
   Danny

[Seytra]

Having a non-human Char does have absolutely _nothing_ to do with roleplaying. As long as you don\'t give it a personality it\'s just a non-human looking image. Your statement suggests that having a human character equates to non-RP, which IMNSHO is entirely untrue.

You can do an _extremely_ good RP with entirely human characters and you can completely kill any RP even when having a non-human character. It all depends _entirely_ on you, not on your character. The character you choose is usually chosen to aid your RP, in the sense that you may feel more comfortable with a human char as you can more easily think up a personality for it, whila a non-human char can help you by giving a clearly defined set of distinctions that you can use to base your RP on and make up a personality or at least a set of traits (i.e. an Enki might lend itself more easily to a burglar than a human, while you might have less difficulty imagining a personality for a human burglar).

Gaining skill has indeed nothing to do with RP. It just gives variation to your RP as you come in contact with other ppl. due to the increased skills. However, indeed skill gains encourage PG, but I honestly believe that there are only _very very few_ ppl. who only wish to RP and _not_ to gain anything (after all, what\'s the real difference between skills and mones / items? Zero.
You have quests, so youneed skills. Skill gain can help you change your mind later or to refine your set of skills to better suit your style, but of course it also strongly encourages PG.

Therefore, you can view the current version of PS to be the purest MMORPG there ever will be, if it were not for the crystals (maybe AB was even better in this respect). In this sense, it\'s only going to become worse. However, being a RP/PG ba$tard (and I also believe that most ppl. are), I welcome options to gain things (material or immaterial in the immaterial game world), as long as they are not too important, i.e. as long as you can still have a good gaming experience (like do quests or other stuff) without them.

[Krissanasli]

id rather gain that skill and be proud of it than be given the skill for nothing...

I\'d like to gain skill points after a long RP session, where  someone explained actual, real-life principles of whatever craft he taught me. It\'s more rewarding overall, as I learn a great deal of information that easily goes into memory (since I\'m enjoying myself while I\'m learning it).

Think of skill gain as sex. Would you rather \"work hard\", or savour it as the fulfillment of a warm, delightful evening?

I honestly believe that there are only _very very few_ ppl. who only wish to RP and _not_ to gain anything

*raises hand*
Consider the MUSHes and  that work perfectly well without item gain or anything like that. Sure, people want to gain *something*, and they do. They gain understanding, knowledge, emotional sophistication and everything else role-playing has to offer (in copious doses). Also, remember that in games like Kyrandia 2, you lost all your items at several \"checkpoints\". But that didn\'t matter... They were useless. Your purpose in that game was to make progress and enjoy the puzzles/humour, not carry the biggest heap of trash around. In Kyrandia 1, gems could be found in the open... While you could\'ve picked them up, it was considered pointless.

(You know, Kyrandia was a paradise... Think about how lovely it was to have gemstones on the ground and flowers blooming in their beds, always ready to be picked. Now think about what it would be like if someone made a  Kyrandia MMORPG... People would be running around the village, scooping gemstones and throwing them into the altar for ph4t fl3w7z. Sounds familiar?)

[Jadd]

There\'s an old, yet very interesting and worthwhile thread you should read.

RolePlaying in its purest form

You have my support Krissanasli, along with many others.

[Krissanasli]

I actually read this two days after my first post. Looking at its size and scope, I wouldn\'t dare call it a thread... It\'s probably more of a hemp rope.

Oh, and I encourage everyone to read it. The whole nine pages of it. There\'s talk about how role-playing should be encouraged and carried out, a few discussions on what role-playing actually is and links to major RPG-related articles, as well as some interesting trivia on leetspeak and d&d.

[Seytra]

Well, obviously my interpretation of RPG differs from yours, Krissanasli. As I already stated I like to RP but I also enjoy gaining things (maybe I just haven\'t seen the light yet ).
I\'ve read the first few pages of the long thread and I agree with Mogura\'s post (1st page) on this issue except that I\'m probably not going to talk much at all. Still, I\'ll definitely trying to make absolutely sure I don\'t disrupt anybody\'s RP. I therefore would be really pleased with an OOC chat which I can use _if_ I have a question and don\'t feel like RPing it (I consider myself in a cave somewhere, hours of travel from the nearest house, asking myself \"was that orange building in Hydlaa the temple of Laanx or of the other guy, what\'s it\'s name?\". While I could ask this IC (after going back eventually), what if I\'d rather RP a char that knows this stuff? Or doesn\'t care? I\'d also like not to have to use a different programm like IRC to do that, or even a browser, since this _totally_ ruins the immersion. OOC talk reduces it, but doesn\'t kill it since there still is the view into the world. Also, it\'d be good if one could just close the OOC (and even IC) chats if one just doesn\'t want to have it right now.

I also like to see my char (no matter how unrealistic this might be) so I\'d wish a 3rd person camera view. I can immerse better if I can _see_ my char so I\'m constantly reminded _what_ I am. FP mode is nice (and I occasionally use it), but I prefer 3d person mode if it\'s done well. When it fails (i.e. if I\'m standing right in front of a wall), I default to FP mode. I\'m also a big fan of minimaps as I tend to get lost in game worlds. The maps should however not show anybody except me and maybe markers I put onto it, and also only areas that I\'ve either visited or otherwise gotten to know. There could also be a sketch-version like you get when someone is just describing the area. They obviously aren\'t going to mention every single tree if it\'s not important somehow.