PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Andrek on June 30, 2006, 07:18:30 pm
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*** 2006-06-29 by Enar Vaikene
- Added chat history and changed the /report command
Last 50 tell, say, shout and auction messages are stored to every character's chat history.
This includes what the character says and also what the character hears. The /report command
writes the chat history of the *reporter* to the log file and then keeps logging for next
5 minutes. The person being reported gets a warning about it.
*** 2006-06-28 by Michael Cummings
- Fix for Pet session time calculation
- Fix for Pet Relationships
- Started making pets capable of attacking
Please forgive me if this is already posted, I did not know how to search for the topic.
So /report is nice... but the pet relations and possibility of attacking pets is awsome!!! Kandrek has been teaching Little Sphinx to attack since he adopted her, though she never seemed to learn!
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:D on report [might be abused]
:D on pets - if I had one X-/
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Yes it was already posted.
Watch http://www.starterupsteve.com/swf/posting.html
There is this nice form on top of the screen with "Search:" in front of it, there you can search! ;)
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Watch http://www.starterupsteve.com/swf/posting.html
Man... this is AWSOME!!!!!! :thumbup:
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There is no way for /report to be abused, so put your fears at ease. The logs will all be on the server and out of reach for any and all modifications.
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I'm seriously uneasy about it reporting the reporter instead of the one being reported, for two reasons:
1) Privacy. It quite obviously violates the privacy of the one doing the right thing, not of the one doing the wrong thing.
2) Uselessness. The reporter may catch a say or two and use /report. The one reported may run away and do their thing elsewhere. Now instead of one consecutive log of abuses, you get a log with, at best a few, incidents by a whole lot of players.
I seriously don't see any benefit in this. The overall context would be just as well captured if the entire log, including what is received, of the offender was stored. The very low added benefit of a slightly more complete picture IMNSHO does not at all warrant such a liberal breach of privacy. This system feels more like the reporters are the bad guys. Is this the intent?
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I feel that it makes more sense to record the logs of the target, but Bereror worries about the privacy issue with that situation - anyone can type /report [NAME] and your logs would be saved to GMs, with or without reason. Though this situation doesn't matter to me at all, as GMs ignore logs with no offenses already, would this be a concern?
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Hi! I'm new here, and haven't gotten to play the game yet. I just had to say that "posting and you' bit is by far one of the funniest things I've ever seen! They should make it a viewing requirement for all new posters! :)
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No.. the server could get an overload of logs
Anyway I think it's Verry good, but try to secure it with report overload (max every 10 secs?) etc
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Well... i agree, the target should be the one logged. But if people run around /reporting everyone and the GMs eventually start to ignore the reports because 99% of them contain nothing, then its a problem because then there is no real effective way of reporting abuses other than physically calling over a GM at the right time, and not everyone knows all of the GMs, or at least the active ones.
So there's one potential problems. But who wants to go around /reporting everyone anyways?
Easton
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GMs will never ignore reports, just like we never ignore petitions even though more than half of them turn out to be nonsense like "HI GM" and "HELP ME PLZ".
The question is, would you guys be comfortable with other people having the ability to use /report like that?
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I think that the GM's will give out a warning to the one's that are reporting too much...
They're nor crazy you know, there must be a name from the reporter being logged on the log...
And Easton is right, who want to run around reporting everybody? I don't think that guy/girl is someone with the love for RP and eventually if they don't stop their "report-spamming" I think they'll be kicked or banned (I don't know the difference, and don't wanna find out ;) )
::) Péace Out!
^^
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There are people...
Is there a chat filter? That would help
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There is, Raven :) But people always find ways of going around it.
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If you keep the filter up-to-date (unlike other games) I'm sure you're going to have a great help from it.
The report button is verry good, but you should give it only to players who played at least.. dunno a few hours
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Ah, then you have people harassing newbies who can't do anything about it.
It's not about just keeping the filter up-to-date - people bypass it through using spaces, numbers, other characters, etc.
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Yes, I know that. That's why you have to have an up-to-date file of words used to bypass it. It's going to be hard but I'd be glad to help!!
Newbies cant do anything about it.. ok, but new people mostly arent that quickly aware of the full gameplay. Mabye if you had a tutourial players could follow in-game and then they can do whatever they want. OR they choose for a waiting time for shouts/auctions/reports.
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It always confuses me when people start talking about privacy and rights on our server. You have none.
You only have an expectation of privacy in a private place. (which includes private communications) This is our server, not yours, so you have no privacy. We can do whatever we want. That being said, we're talking about logging public chat here so it doesn't even apply.
By the way, if anyone uses /report every 3 seconds spamming GMs with logs, there's no reason they shouldn't get kicked or banned if they keep it up. Spamming in any form like that isn't allowed, even if it's only spamming the GMs. (ditto for people creating thousands of petitions)
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For the first time that I can recall, I disagree with Seytra. I think it's a good idea to log the reportee as well as the reporter. Why? To prevent entrapment. I don't know that this is a big issue, but it is certainly a possibility. If we only see a players responses, we are missing what may have provoked those responses. I don't see that privacy is a big concern here, partly for the reasons cited by DaveG, but also because the person who does the reporting is surely aware of what they are doing. They are choosing to allow themselves to be logged as a condition of having someone else logged.
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Bereror is going to change the system around to record/send the logs of the person being reported - but not just what they say, what they hear too. So all public chat coming in and out of their client will be saved, to know if there is provoking going on or similar.
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It's not that kind of abuse I was talking about.
Q: if there is a logfile kept for the next five minutes, and that person reports again after one minute, what happens?
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I think we need to test out what works best there.
Either a /report on the target with a clear WARNING that he is being logged or a quiet /report on the one who feels abused.. latter can be seen as handing the logs
of the victim to the GMs, without chance of altering.
The warning would have the psychological effect I described in the according wishlist thread, the quiet /report is rather sneaky.. and could backfire at the one who wants
to report, in any way.
But I agree that /report on the reporter might be less abusive.
Maybe its best to log both, reporter _and_ target, plus warning..
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Raven: It just says "Previous logging is still active." and nothing happens.
I think just logging the reportee is just fine. It'll have whatever was heard and any other portions that might've been missed. I think the warning is also fine, but I could be wrong about that one. (seeing as any idiot then has the ability to put that warning on someone's screen)
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does the warning tell the reported who reported them?
ex. "you have been reported by "X""
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That would be a very bad idea, and thus I doubt anyone would code that in.
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I'd also give warning codes, so you can classify the type of report
offensive language / not-RP and bug abuse are diffrent and might all be reported.
/report target nr (optional) "warning.."
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ok, i havent seen PS in its true forn quite yet, but on most games, the report command is never used. who cares if someone cusses you out? are you going to take that to heart? if you do you need to stop playing MMORPGs because, hey, it happens. and who cares if it does? the PS staff isnt out there to put out fires, they are there to help us RP and improve the game, find bugs, etc. someone can flame you all they want and you shouldnt take offense to it, thats i sign of weakness.
just my two cents :D
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The game is meant to be played by all ages - cursing does not belong, and GMs will prevent it as much as possible. It does not help RP. If you can brush it off, that's great - but it's a mistake to expect that of everyone.
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of course if the annoyer was right in front of the annoyee, annoying them, I think it'd be pretty obvious who reported them :-X
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you don't have to be next to a person to hear an offensive /say, or /shout, or /auction.
in fact, you can be rather far away for some of those.
i say you should log both reporter and reported because what if the reporter just arrived and heard the offensive language. but the reported had been doing it for 8 minutes before the reporter arrived. if you log only the reporter, then you may only get one small line of offensive chat, whereas if you log the reported, you get the past five minutes of their offensive behaviour.
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What is needed, folks, is for /report to go into the chat files on both reporter and reportees client, and record the last five minutes, not the next. Unless I am mistaken in my understanding, it does not do that. Giving someone a warning, then expecting them to continue their misbehavior makes no sense, unless the person is a true idiot. Anyone who knows of the time limit will simply be on their best behavior for the duration, then go back to their rudeness/trolling/vulgarness.
Example:
Vulgartroll says: You are a [insert random bad words, as the filter is quite weak]!!
Niceguynewb: /report Vuglartroll
Warning sent to Vulgartroll. Chat recording started. GM watches.
Vulgartroll says: Why sir, I do not know what your problem is. I think you misunderstood my words. Perhaps we can talk it out over a mug or two at kada's?
Time runs out on the /report as does the politeness.
Vulgartroll says: Niceguynewb! You little [more bad words and some not very nice threats.]
Niceguynewb: /report Vulgartroll
Vulgartroll says: Please stop following me, Niceguynewb. I do not wish to speak with one as rude as you.
GM tells Niceguynewb: Stop report spamming please. There are other people that really need our help.
Niceguynewb leaves game forever.
Now, though not a likely situation, it could happen. An automatic delve into the chat logs would fix this.
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Moon, I don't think you know the extent of true idiots. Expecting people to go on with offensive behavior after a warning is far from crazy, and they can stop for a minute and then start up again. It's much safer to just continue the log for some time, to make sure that the point was taken. If not, the GMs then have a better understanding of the person's mentality.
There is no reason to get the log of the person doing the /report. The chat going in and out of the target's client will be saved.
*edit* To clarify, report will be rectroactive - meaning that it will get a hold of the chat some time before the command was activated, and then continue some time afterwards. I thought that was already pretty clear.
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I'm a supported of fair-play in games and if there is the option to report people who spoil the game, I will use it.
As of now. We have the opportunity to work together on this game. (or at least debate about the things they'll add) and it would be :thumbup: if we helped create a report system other games would be yealous for!
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This is an interesting debate.
As a matter of fact, I agree with Kerol. The system has to be tested, keep in mind that there has been a bugged report function, and as I've been able to see in the BT, seems that some harassments have been happening around lately, fortunately with the new version the report functionality will work again. Testing is needed in order to see if it works or not, we cannot expect to cover all cases. There was a harm being done, that required urgent action. The action has been taken. Let's see if it works. Does it have room for improvement? Surely. Once there's found a flaw in the report system, there's out there a coder (in this case Bereror) that will be more than willing to improve what he wrote in order to prevent that exploit from happening again, the best system might not be the one sounding like that, but we'll all agree that the best system is that one that, amongst all tested, works better.
We've, as it's been stated before, a cache on the server (RAM memory) that stores the last 50 texts said by each char online (between tells, chat and auction) this has the advantadge that noone can alter the logs, as has been stated before.
I'll try to put pro/cons regarding the two possibilities that have been discussed in here.
Which log use to actually create the file to be stored in HDD for further review of the ones in charge of dealing with harassment, the reporter (one that calls the /report function) or the reported?
Reported being used:
Advantages:
As Seytra mentioned, if that person has been openly harassing other persons before, and after the encounter with the actual reporter, even if those persons do not use the /report function, all of those actions will be stored.
Disadvantages:
Has been stated already, one can use the report function to simply send all that other player was saying, telling, etc. And this indeed affects privacy, as you don't know the report is fake till you actually read it. It's true that actions can be taken against those who exploit the report function in such a way, but, then again, the "privacy invasion" has been already done.
It might seem really stupid, as "why anyone would use /report in such a way?" but then again, "why anyone would join a game to harass people?" Just for the sake of annoying another one... if that is true, using /report on another person is also a way of annoying that person, regarding precisely "privacy".
This is indeed a very touchy disadvantage, an important one, I'd say.
This way, anyone decides when your "privacy is violated".
Reporter being used
Advantages:
Harassed: Since the reporter is the one that took the offense, it is sure that, if you use the reporter log, you'll have in there all the things that lead to cause that offense.
I am the one that decides to put "my privacy" avaiable. This also adds to a rational use of the report command.
Harasser: If you partner with someone to harass another player in game, since your log is the one sent, that will be spotted by the person reading through the log.
Disadvantages:
Harassed: The reporter is the one that exposes himself/herself in terms of privacy, it's true, and indeed can be seen as if that's unfair, since he/she is the one offended. This is absolutely certain.
But, if there has been harassment, and you're using the report function cause you've been harassed, I'm sure that the desire of that being solved, goes above any possible "privacy" issue that may be in your 50 previous talks, or in your next 5 minutes.
Only your harassment will be reported, and not those that might affect others. This, however, can be sorted out if the report function is allowed to be known by other players and they use it accordingly.
Harasser: As stated above, perhaps your agreement with other partners to harass, or cause a bad reaction from someone and then try to exploit the report function could be caught, but, for that being so, you'd require that "agreement" to be done in game. Having that agreement outside of it (using IM service of any kind) would break that advantage.
Comment:
With all this said, the log reporter form seemed good enough to me, at least, it deserved the chance to be tested, to my eyes.
Still, I tried to suggest and think of a way to keep as much as possible the privacy of the reporter (and even reported) as it's certainly an important issue.
When you call the report function, the server can know who called it, and also who is the reported one. With that information at hand, it may be possible to filter the text file, to only keep those entries that contain the names of the chars involved (reported and reporter) and that should be enough as to save the player's privacy.
This assuming that the private conversations you were having weren't with the reported, as it usually is the case.
This would require some more coding, but I think it would be the best solution (at least to my eyes, and on "paper" so to say).
This option, though, has a flaw, that is if someone else added to the harassment, and you don't use the report function on him/her, that person will be filtered out of the final resulting file. Anyway, I think this would be a minor issue in exchange of keeping the reporter "privacy" as much safe as possible.
I see that, when I hit "preview" on this, a warning came to me saying that lots of posts have been done while I was typing this. I haven't yet read them, I tried to put my ideas in here as well ordered as I could, I hope they're of some use.
Edit: typo.
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what you could do is have a temporary log of everything everyone has said, but that delets itself. so it would only keep the last 5 things or so that people have said. then, when someone reports a person the logs saves the chat for that moment and a GM can review it later.
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uhm...has everyone forgotten the /ignore command? i have found it quite useful rather than reporting everyone that i just don't care to hear from.
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uhm...has everyone forgotten the /ignore command? i have found it quite useful rather than reporting everyone that i just don't care to hear from.
exactly what i said in my last post...except i didnt realise there was an ignore command. if people dont want to hear cursing, then just use /ignore...
if they expose themselves to profanity and then cry about it later then thats their on fault.
not saying that the people who are flaming ppl are bad, but thats what happens in multipayer games and if they are consistent flamers then the GMs arent stupid and theyll hear about it one way or another...
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perhaps i should clarify...i said "for people i didn't care to hear from" ...i was not referring to general cursing and extremely rude behavior.
ignore only works for one's self, it does not preclude one's ability to destroy the environment for several players
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Myrthe: That's exactly what the thing does... Why isn't anyone understanding this?...
Nilrem: My god... how can you type so much about this issue?... Learn to be a little more concise.
Please people, stop trying to use the word "privacy" when talking about this. You have none here, in any way, shape, or form. Additionally, the logs are only viewable by GMs and devs. It's not like you're leaking conversations out to the public each time you use the command.
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allim trying to say is that instead of using the report command every time someone uses profanity against you, sve the GMs some time and just ignore the person.
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I implemented the new reporting and the chat history system so I feel responsible for explaining, how it is done currently. Everything can be changed if the majority of good players and GMs feel it needs to be done.
The current (new) system records everything that you say or hear others saying/telling you. If you feel offended, you issue the /report <player-name> command and last 50 messages that you said or heard will be stored to a log file on the server. The system will keep recording what you hear/say during next 5 minutes. Another /report <player-name> will extend the reporting time for another 5 minutes (from the moment when you issued the command).
I tried to make the system functionally equal to sending your chat logs from your own PC without the ability to modify them. It is what you heard and what you said. It should give a good picture what was going on there.
I agree 100% that reporting the chat history of the person being reported is a better way if only good players are going to use that function. But it is possible to pick a victim and use "report <victim-name>" without any reasons. Now your private chat would be stored into a log file on the server and made available for GMs to read it. You did nothing wrong and GMs are carefully chosen, but it is still your private chat that was stored there.
I have never been into a situation where I had a need for the /report command. But I have talked with people who did and I will do everything needed to stop actions that may need the use of the /report command. If it requires giving up some privacy, I don't care.
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Myrthe : Yes, people do need to learn to ignore these morons. However, bad harassment problems do need to be reported so they can be dealt with. One of the main reasons GMs exist is to deal with these things to maintain an in-game environment people actually want to play in. If these people are hindering that, they need to go.
You did nothing wrong and GMs are carefully chosen, but it is still your private chat that was stored there.
I have never been into a situation where I had a need for the /report command. But I have talked with people who did and I will do everything needed to stop actions that may need the use of the /report command. If it requires giving up some privacy, I don't care.
I'm not understanding at all where people are getting the notion that there's a privacy concern here. Who cares if some GM is reading some text you already said in public? It's not giving up privacy; you had no privacy to begin with.
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It always confuses me when people start talking about privacy and rights on our server. You have none.
A privacy statement would be highly required if we start talking on such a basis.
You only have an expectation of privacy in a private place. (which includes private communications) This is our server, not yours, so you have no privacy. We can do whatever we want.
I am very well aware of that. However, I had been under the impression that it was not the policy of the PS team to arbitrarily listen in on user communications. If I have been wrong assuming this, then, again, a very prominent warning would be the minimum I expect. Even if your email provider owns the servers you use, I think you wouldn't be terribly happy if they were just going to read your mail for fun.
Adding to that, as I have said on another similar occasion, it is of course true that one must not entrust confidential / truly private material to the internet without heavy encryption. Yet there is quite a bit of material that on one hand doesn't justify the effort, while OTOH it still isn't supposed to be in public view and thus should not be intercepted without good reason.
That being said, we're talking about logging public chat here so it doesn't even apply.
The OP explicitely referred to not only /say, but also to /tells, and /tell is the least public chat you can get in PS AFAICS.
Last 50 tell, say, shout and auction messages are stored to every character's chat history.
@Ralas / provocation: That's why I said if the entire log, including what is received, of the offender was stored
. "What is received" refers to exactly that: what the offender's incoming messages, not just outbound messages, are, just as the OP stated:
This includes what the character says and also what the character hears.
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@Myrthe: I'm sure that a lot of people can deal with that sort of thing appropriately. However, PS is supposed to be a family game, and also rudeness is bad behaviour. The fact that "it happens", especially "in other games" does in no way mean that it is in any way acceptable, and if it can be dealt with, then it must be dealt with.
Edit: the proposal of Nilrem and others of sayving both sides seems to have some merit as well. My proposal for /report is this:
When someone uses /report <XYZ> (also, for everyone else who afterwards uses /report on the same person, or multiple times), then the server should
- store the name of the /reporter, as well as the time the /report command was used
- store the public (/say, /guild, /shout, /auction, /help (and possibly /group, though one can find "private" RP in there)) chat of the reporter (incoming + outgoing, 50 messages back). There is no real privacy issue here, since all except /group can easily be considered public.
- store any /tell sent from the reporter to the reported, and vice-versa, within the 50 msgs back period
- inform the reporter of that fact
- store the full log of the reported (incoming + outgoing, including /tell) (50 messages back); this will serve to see if there are provocations: if anyone besides the reporter actually sends provoking /tells, then these will get logged on the receiver's end.
- warn the one being reported about that fact
- keep doing that for 5 minutes, renewing when a new /report comes in (again, storing /reporter name and time)
Also it would be possible to log the /tells of the reported one, but to only display them on request, so that actually viewing them is required only if there actually is evidence of abuse (in whatever direction). Tells sent from the reported to the reporter, and vice-versa, would be displayed by default, as they will be unlikely to contain private matters.
That way, it is ensured that no useless /reports are being conducted, that abusers automatically turn themselves in, that privacy is violated to a minimum extent only and that GMs always get as full a context as possible. The only thing this system does not catch is the case when a reporter sends /tells to someone else, encouraging them to send provoking /tells to the one reported. However, since the one sending the /tells will get caught, the likelyhood of that is small. Also, I suppose that if one willingly does such a thing, one is just as guilty, even if not doing it out of own accord.
An addition to the system could therefore be to also log /tells of the reporter that are sent to someone who also sends /tells to the one reported. However, I don't think that this will really do anything useful.
Possibly also introduce a "/report all" command that logs the reporters /tells as well, in case of being harassed in /tell, so that the reporter actively agrees to make available their private messages.
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It's rather strange to continue logging the person who started the report, when that wasn't the guilty party. And he/she isn't going to follow the guilty party around, trying to "prove" to GMs that the behavior hasn't stopped after they walked away. If you're innocently reported, you lose nothing. The GMs read over reports, don't see anything wrong, and throw them away. If a GM abuses anything, they're gone from the team, and possibly from the entire community.
This is the best way to actually see what is wrong, instead of piecing together incomplete bits and pieces from various logs - which would happen if person A harasses person B, walks away, harasses person C, walks away, and so on and so forth. I don't want this extra workload on GMs, to pour over logs after logs that are all about the same person, when one log can suffice. It's the target's behavior that we need to monitor, not the person who felt offended, long after the harasser walks out of range.
Considering the very large and immediate benefits this system would bring, I honestly cannot find myself caring if a bit of "virtual privacy" is lost through accidental reporting.
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There's a very big difference between email and the PS server. Email is yours; PS is not. You don't have an assumption of privacy. It's ours, and we can do whatever we want with it. Techincally speaking, a free email provider could root through your email all they want, so long as they haven't agreed up front that they won't. We made no such agreements. That doesn't mean we're going to do all sorts of sneaky spying things, but we can.
I do, however, agree on the point that we should probably post a privacy policy somewhere stating this explicitly.
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There's a very big difference between email and the PS server. Email is yours; PS is not.
I own the mail servers just as much as I own PS: not at all. Still, the content of mails I send are mine. The contents of what I send through PS can therefore be expected to be just as mine.
You don't have an assumption of privacy. It's ours, and we can do whatever we want with it.
Just as the mail provider.
Techincally speaking, a free email provider could root through your email all they want, so long as they haven't agreed up front that they won't. We made no such agreements. That doesn't mean we're going to do all sorts of sneaky spying things, but we can.
I do, however, agree on the point that we should probably post a privacy policy somewhere stating this explicitly.
Be sure to include something about PMs on the forum, as I suppose they are just as "not private" as are /tells ingame...
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Ok, let me put it this way: The stuff you send is yours but you have no right to restrict viewing on it unless there was a prior agreement to that fact.
Yes, PMs on our forums also fall into that category. Any time you're sending stuff on someone else's system you have no expectation of privacy. It needs to either be your own private stuff or you need to have agreed beforehand that it must be considered private. Otherwise, it's public or at far least not private.
No one honestly thinks we're going to grab PMs or /tells and post them somewhere for people to make fun of, or something ridiculous like that. But, we do have the right to do so. All we care to do is look at a few stupid little things that someone complained about. It's already assumed that we have the right to do that, because it was never stated that we don't. (we run the servers, so the default assumption is we can do whatever we want)
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If someone reports someone being offensive in PMs, yes an admin can go and check along with you providing evidence of the offensive text.
I think this is just making a big deal out of things. It's not an "invasion" but a useful tool that can prevent in-game abuse and get quick GM help. If need be (most likely), a Privacy Policy will be added. I don't see this as a reason to panic.
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This is really just another case of people begining to understand these sort of issues, but missing many of the points. The other main example is that people know they need to get a firewall, but never bother to learn how to use the freakin' things. There are lots of issues like this that are very important but get skewed most of the time when talked about. Yes, privacy is a very important topic but you're applying the wrong concepts here. The only private information we have from you is the email address you used to create your account with, and we've already agreed we aren't using that for anything. The rest is stuff made on our server with our stuff, and we have absolute access to it.
Edited to add:
Another thing I should point out: If a email provider decided to root through all your email, you probably would just decide not to use them. So, they agree up front that they won't. If you don't like the fact that your chat might be monitored at some random time, tough, don't play on our server.
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Going off of Bereror's post, if the new /report command logs the person that initiated the report, then why even care about having to type a name after the /report? The way you have coded it, after the /report command isstarted, really, all those that interact with the reporter can be considered the reportees. Not saying that GMs aren't smart enough to figure out, but they'd have to sift through all the text done by various individuals and find which character(s) the /report command was aimed at.
Also, as it is stated, the reporter may not have haerd but a few lines of abusive chat, done the /report and walked away from the abusive player. Thus, under this system, GMs would only have those few lines to go off of. It makes more sense to keep the old way of how the /report worked, that is, start logging the person beign reported. Just have it be retroactive, so it saves a nice history. That was what was generally agreed on by the majority of people when the first conversation about it poped up. Hope this makes sense.
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Neko: Yes. That's what it's getting changed to. We already said we're going to have it changed to log the reportee and just be retroactive.
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Going off of Bereror's post, if the new /report command logs the person that initiated the report, then why even care about having to type a name after the /report?
It is used for the name of the report file: "report_chat_Spammer_by_Reporter.log".
Also it is stored at the beginning of the file to give GMs an idea, what is going on:
"Starting to log Spammer
Log by the request of Reporter"
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Ok, thanks for the carification. I read Miss K's post stating that earlier in the thread but then Bereror came in and stated his post so I wasn't sure which way the /report command was going to be used. Then the thread moved towards privacy concerns, (I'm agreeing with you on that subject btw, Dave), so I wasn't sure. Anyways, thanks for the clarification.
@ Ber, ah, I see. That makes sense then.
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By the way, for those who might be confused as to why the automatic assumption is no privacy:
There are exactly 2 posibilities here:
1) You have an assumption of privacy. We're not allowed to access or even incidentally look at portions of the data on our own server.
2) You have no assumption of privacy. We're allowed to access our own stuff.
The first makes no sense, therefore the second is the only logical assumption. Any deviation from that required prior agreement between all parties involved.
The more general statement is that you always assume the negative. There are no giant purple monkeys running havoc on the world, unless I have some evidence to the contrary.
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It always confuses me when people start talking about privacy and rights on our server. You have none.
What DaveG is saying is very clear.
What I can't understand why people feel they can do and say and have control over this project and feel justified in doing so. Then turn around and act surprised and offended when they are told different. Or worse yet argue it. That fact of the matter is, would you like to have spent five years on a project with a game, do all the hard work, lay down the rules, only to have the testers of that game take control of it and tell you what to do? I think not.
If people feel their privacy is being invaded even after the devs and GM's have told you otherwise, then don't play the game. It is as simple as that. This /report is put there for safety or people who maybe harrassed. Further more I can't understand what people would be so concerned about when it comes to privacy? Devs listening in to your conversation? Well I highly doubt they care to read those logs as I think they have lives and are busy with this project. You don't want the devs to know you are planning with your character? You are discussing personal information and don't want others to know? Well then get msn, skype, yahoo, whatever type of messanger and discuss it there. After all you should be playing the game right?
Over all this game does not belong to us testers. We have been invited to help on this project. Were are able to make suggestions and have input on issues concerning the game. In no way do we have the right to damand, because the simple answer to that is leave the game then if it is a problem.
In my opinion this all boils down to people who don't like being told no and having lack of control. Well that's life.
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Well said Zorbels. There've been lots of people around here assuming some odd levels of authority. I'm not so much offended as just plain confused as to where it's coming from. Don't take these things too seriously, and don't assume that it's "yours" unless you actually contributed to it. Just test and play the game and be done with it, and if you want to contribute, be my guest. But don't start ranting like you're somehow running the place.
Yes, I know people don't like being told when they have no control, but you simply don't.
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Something I seem to have to clarify: I fully agree that everything except /tell and /group is public, and I don't have real issues with that being logged and reviewed. That was not what my posts here are / were about.
My issues really just refer to /tell and to a lesser extent to /group, and I dont think it's unreasonable to have concerns about that.
It is an issue whether to have that available for GMs to sift through by default. It may be necessary in some cases, but it might not be in others. To give blanket permission to GMs isn't a wise thing to do IMO, because it's comparatively hard to check on the GMs. Not limiting the power of your guards to the extent truly necessary is not wise.
Regarding "the only private information is the email address": I don't think this is true. It is personally identifiable information, but private information AFAICS includes anything that is not supposed to be made public. This, obviously, means PMs and /tells.
The "If you don't like it, don't use our server" is a bit simplistic IMO, but the real message that people should be made aware of is "If you don't like it, don't use our server for private matters". This, though, will still not include "private" RP which might be conducted with and intended for only very select players, nontheless being fully IC.
What I want to see is not a grant of full privacy, but a "only if necessary for ensuring proper operation of the game, including maintaining an enjoyable environment" sort of statement, and an effort being made to actually not view /tells unless truly necessary, which would be helped by the "display /tells only upon specific request" I proposed.
Oh, and BTW, I feel that I have been contributing by raising this issue (Edit: and the amount of constructive feedback proves that I'm by far not alone), as it may lead to a more concise policy. Yes, it is correct that you guys own the place. However, once you have more people in, not only on player side, but also on GM and even dev side, a viable policy is needed. Otherwise, people won't feel at home / welcomed in PS, as without a policy, there will be "incidents", and no way to deal with them. Edit 2: I think that that's by far not too much to ask, especially not since the intent is clearly along the same lines.
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Yes, we need an official policy. Basically just saying something to the effect of "you have none, but we won't plaster your chat publicly".
I'm sorry, but I'm using the word "contributing" differently than you. Everyone who tests and reports bugs is also contributing, but they don't go out and actually fix them. Pointing out something and spending days upon days actually fixing it are completely different things.
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It's not that hard to check on GMs, really. Our own commands are logged all the time. If it would make people feel better, I suppose logs can be off-limits to all but the highest and the dev team, to prevent any "newbie" GM from sifting through them for interesting gossip.
However, there can be a lot of abuse carried out through /tells - I've caught people and had people admit to it - so it is necessary to include this when it comes to reporting. I'm not quite understanding what suggestion you're written in regards to handling this - can you elaborate just a bit more? :>
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Yes, I also agree we should be restricting logs to at least GM2 or GM3.
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There've been lots of people around here assuming some odd levels of authority. I'm not so much offended as just plain confused as to where it's coming from. Don't take these things too seriously, and don't assume that it's "yours" unless you actually contributed to it. Just test and play the game and be done with it, and if you want to contribute, be my guest. But don't start ranting like you're somehow running the place.
I don't think I've assumed any sort of authority, nor have I been ranting AFAICS. Yes, the levels of contribution are different, I didn't deny that. Still the way I see it is that you want for input like this, as there is a board and a wishlist, for good reasons IMO. Disregarding syntactical differences and choices of words, all I have done (or intended to do) is to raise an issue which I (and obviously others, too) find quite important, and proposed, like others, ways to improve the situation.
@Karyuu: Sure. I've said that /tells should not be viewed unless necessary. The need to actually log them obviously is there. So whose /tells must be logged and when / how shall they be made viewable?
IMO the /tells of the one reported should be logged. The tells that were exchanged between reporter and reported should be displayed within the normal log viewer. However, the remaining tells, (those to or from the reported by some other than the reporter) should be hidden unless explicitely requested by the reviewing GM (and limiting it to higher GMs is good as well).
That way it is ensured that "private" things are viewed only when required. It won't stop abusive GMs, obviously, though if these "requests to view" are logged as well, then it may not get abused easily.
After all, the initial drive to log the reporter, not the reported, was to protect the privacy of the reported. This system would do that unless abused by GMs. It might be possible to require a second GM to agree to the tell viewing, though that might be too much overhead to be feasible, and could also be abused.
If the reporter is being abused in /tell, and wishes to have that directly available to GMs, then "/report <name> full" could be used, which would then display all /tells to and from the reporter by default.
Whether or not to log the non-/tell (and possibly, non-/group) of the reporter is of nearly no concern to me, as it is, as has been said, already public.
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All sounds well and good. Appreciated the edit clarifying that it is retroactive(; i understood next 50 posts meaning if i am an offender i just go '/who game' to see if a gm is actively monitoring, and if not i can count to fifty in public then call the person a name for reporting me). The reasons I see for people being hesitant to report based on actual privacy are as followed (based on my (and others') experience/s):
-1) having negative opinions of gms. I've had issues with the way a gm is talking to a player (usually a noob) on multiple occasions. I would be very hesitant to report someone right after /telling someone else they shouldn't take the way they are lectured at personally because some gms have god complexes and power trips. [even posting this, if not for this bracketed comment, i would expect a reprimand of some sort...even with this part, i still anticipate one].
I know some of these may seem insane. inane. or for whatever other reasons not worth mentioning.
That's it. That's the only valid reason i can think of why people respecting ps guidelines etc would have to be genuinely concerned about privacy when reporting to a gm (unless thay are just shy or some such silliness--but like i said valid)... Some may be unclear on policies & fear they did something wrong too, but like i said, the above reffers to those who have been actively respecting all ps policies...
BUT--
I had a friend who saw someone several times over the course of more than one gameplay session: arrive where groups of more than one player had a mob camped; walk up then either kill it over & over without asking for a turn nor letting the others get one--or ASK, but then kill several times in a row, or constantly skipping every other waiting player so every second kill is his... Before reporting to a gm (as none were on at the time) my pal challenged the guy to a duel, which was obviously rejected, then called the guy a "pussy" -- [now here he knows he was wrong for using a modern word in character (even tho there is a race of pussycat people)] -- the ofender started to claim to be an alt char of GM AND multiple well known players & saying he would have my buddy's account banned & character deleted etc...
long story could be far longer...
Eventually my buddy reported this to a gm he was aqquainted with who told him he'd gotten multiple complaints about the same offender & to send the log... He sent his chat log in...
Point is: guess how this got resolved?
My buddy got invited into a group with multiple gms, players, and the offender. The offender littereally wrote that he was laughing at one of the folks in the group who he had impersonated-- then cursed every other word, like 'o i'm so#%$ sorry you GMs, last thing i meant to do was %^$# off a gm, i was just %$^# defending myself I am so %$% sorry. this %%^#%^sucks ' (not a direct quote) and kept using total sarcasm to make fun of everyone who took the convo seriously. . .
. . . I'm gonna reduce the story more because it's really hard not to name names & getting way long while leaving stuff out. [I know this is a confusing way to tell the story-- I have a copy of the portion of log pertaining to this but don't want to send it till i can get permission from my buddy to paste from it]... to summarize: the guy did equivalent of apoligizing while spitting in everyone's face. Then my buddy got told that HE-MY BUDDY, had to aploigize & that HE was going to be under probation, and should never insult anyone at all ever in the game no matter the reason at all; in character or out. Since hearing about all that it astonishes me that he still even plays. He explained to me that his new way of dealing with problems with other players is to just ignore them, never report them, at most warn his friends they may want to avoid the person.
ALL that to say: I also adopted his philosophy after reading what happened. Who in their right mind goes to the authorities if they're gonna cause you more trouble than ignoring someone? (not to mention more trouble to you than the person you're reporting)... Sure we all want to improve the community, but at our own risk??... let someone else make the report; assuming someone else can guess when an offender is lying about being a gm or other person of authority's alt... and let them take the hit of being investigated if they do anything other than shut their mouths & send a report.
So evidently, whether you report thru a command or sending a log or just a tell, you are putting YOURSELF up to (what seems to me) possibly more scrutiny than whoever you choose to report. The problem here isn't the report/reporting system itsself; it's how the person making the report is essentially treated as an equal (or worse) offender to whoever they are reporting.
[It reminds me of rape laws & how the victim can't be put on trial. or rather it reminds me what things must have been like before those laws passed; blaming the woman to say she was asking for or inviting it; using the fact she had one rape case before as a defence for the person she is attacked by next... I'm not comparing in game offences with rape: I am comparing one instance of criminalizing a victim (in cases where a victim is often the only witness/one to report it) to an instace of criminalizing whoever witnesses & reports an offence (victim or not).]
Uggh... I'm hesitant to even hit the 'post' button for fear I will get a huge pile for posting so honestly. If i do, it tells me that i should probably apply the philosophy I currently apply to reporting players, to making posts on the boards. hopefully by the time I have to defend this post I will be able to ask my buddy & get permission to post his log.
To be clear tho. The new system with the command etc seems IN NO WAY WORSE than any other system i heard of. in fact it sounds like it could be better... like leaving a message on police answering machine rather than having to mail them a letter... Problem is: if the justice system still penalizes the person for reporting an offence either way it changes nothing of import.
I would NOT have posted this as a reply to the original post in this thread. I am posting this because many nay-saying replies seemed to be percieved as revolving around notions of 'privacy'-- when to me it appears what is done AFTER report/log is made/sent (and how the sender is regarded/treated/investigated) is what they have concerns about.
[i am so gonna regret opening my mouth on this one at all X-/ ]
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Whew! That was quite a read, Anne ;)
There is no way that I can reply to every point you made, but just so you are aware - we do have a way of reporting inappropriate GM behavior. If you feel that an action was done unfairly, you do have a means to raise the issue and make sure that the problem is understood and similar won't occur again if a GM was in the wrong. Click on the Reporting Abuse link in my signature for further information, and feel free to ask any questions you may have. Players should not ignore issues, but pursue better resolutions if they have the opportunity.
Moreover, we're not tyrants :) We honestly don't care if a player says something mean about this GM or that, as long as they aren't spreading lies/rumors or are cursing or making serious threats, etc. We're not going to sift through logs of someone to find that they said "GM [NAME] is an effin' pain. They are completely ruining my experience, and this has been really pissing me off lately," hunt that person down and give them a lecture, or worse. That's not our job. People are free to think whatever they want, even though as a team we want them to have positive thoughts. So while I can definitely understand the hesitation in sending a report in this case, we're not going to go around controlling opinions about PS staff, as long as it isn't damaging - as purposeful lies would be, for example.
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[i am so gonna regret opening my mouth on this one at all X-/ ]
Well, it indeed has been stated that issues with GMs should not be discussed on the boards. This is technically not doing so, and instead citing an example in order to make a point.
Anyway, I haven't had such issues with GMs yet, be it because I don't usually camp MOBs, don't usually call GMs in for share-unwilling spawn campers, or that I was just lucky. Be it as it may, it looks like a reason to "limit the power of your guards" (GMs).
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By the way, for those who might be confused as to why the automatic assumption is no privacy:
There are exactly 2 posibilities here:
1) You have an assumption of privacy. We're not allowed to access or even incidentally look at portions of the data on our own server.
2) You have no assumption of privacy. We're allowed to access our own stuff.
The first makes no sense, therefore the second is the only logical assumption. Any deviation from that required prior agreement between all parties involved.
The more general statement is that you always assume the negative. There are no giant purple monkeys running havoc on the world, unless I have some evidence to the contrary.
That is as clear as mud ;D
Also a point to note hear it is stared on my private computer also, so ditto that makes it private to me. Just to let you know ;D
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Seytra: The main point I'd like to make in response to that, is that there's no reason to overcomplicate this thing. Just do /report and it logs stuff. I don't care if someone wants us to have it or not, we're not going to filter through stuff, we're just going to log what we want and be done with it. It's not a big deal. There's simply nothing here to care this much about, and nothing involved that really needs any extra care. It's just logs, and we can log anything we feel the need to. (side note: it annoys me quite a bit that we really need this sort of stuff)
By the way, my comment on people assuming unwarranted authority was only mildy directed at you. Yes, I think you're assuming there's something at issue here that is not, but there've been plenty of people going way overboard with things recently. The prime example was Janner somehow thinking that it could be illegal for us to keep track of advisor points without making the tally public. This sort of weird stuff has been popping up more and more on the forums, and it just beweilders me. (I could go further and list names of people who go waaaay too far down the "this is the players' game" path, but I don't want to spark a flame war here...)
Anne Ominous and everyone on this forum: If I have to maximize my window to read your post, and it still barely fits onscreen, it's too big... >.< Be concise people! Don't ramble if you want to get your point across.
Janner: Using your logic: Your post is also on my computer, therefore it is my private property. Simply put, if it's ever public it's never private afterwards.
About crappy GMs: Yes, they have existed. Not much we can do about that sometimes. They're people too. We have a ranks system, and they only get access to the commands and abilities they need and are allowed to have. If a GM ever abuses a command or their authority, then guess what... we've got another use for the /report command.
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A tells is not public it is sent to a player not to the server, so if you wont to get technical it not public property.
But i do see the need to access it if a player is being rude ect. So I give my permission to accesses it in my case if needed ;D
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No, it's not public property. It's a message sent on our system, so it's our private property. (using the word "property" loosely)
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From players guid:
Talk to someone privately. With this command you can send text only the person you specify can see. It is possible to use /me and /my in tells, eg: /tell recipient /me sits down
So its not private to me and the player I am sending it to, better take care what I talk about then :thumbdown:
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Really, you shouldnt be talking about anything you don't want other people to know through a game's chat in the first place. Private in the context you quoted is referring to something you want to tell someone but not clutter the main chat with it, or say something to only one other person and not let other players see it. That doesn't include devs or GMs, its thier job to police, so they need to see tells, else they couldn't do their job to the fullest potential.
Bottom line, don't type anything you don't want someone to see, especially through a public game.
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Conversations that are not in /say or /shout, have an expectation of privacy, for exactly the same reason that Emails and private chat sessions do.
They have a limited intended audience, that is not public.
That they pass though the Laanx server is irrelevant, and it is no different than any other mail or chat server.
There is an expectation that the messages will not be intercepted, except perhaps by law enforcement officials, who first must show just cause, and obtain a warrant from a judge to allow them to do so.
So no, just because a message passes through the Laanx server, it does not make it legal for someone not a party to the communication to log or intercept it.
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I just had a late-night thought \\o//
What about logging retroactively 50 lines and till logout of the one who is reporting, not filtering specific channels, not even warning the one who is the target, but giving out a system message "the report has been stored to review in ../planeshift/logs/reports/". With the command /reportstop you can stop the logging before actually logout; with /reportsend you send the latest report done by you and with /reportcancel you can delete the latest report by you from the server (not the client).
If someone is already sure he has no concerns and wants to get rid of a n00b, /report n00b; wait a bit; /reportstop; and directly /reportsend. If someone isn't sure if it is worth the hassle afterwards or the mess got cleaned up already and the /report was in vain or the player has issues about his privacy, just read the report which is stored on the client (and also on the server, therefor not modifyable) and /reportsend or /reportcancel.
With that players could review their own reports before they are sent to the GMs. That solves all privacy concerns, makes it redundant to repeatedly /report and reduces the number of false alerts. Having that, there would neither be a problem to have all GMs looking through the reports nor the reporter would be left in darkness what actually is in the report and reviewable by the GMs.
Enough late-night/early morning thoughts >.>
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By the way, my comment on people assuming unwarranted authority was only mildy directed at you. Yes, I think you're assuming there's something at issue here that is not, but there've been plenty of people going way overboard with things recently. The prime example was Janner somehow thinking that it could be illegal for us to keep track of advisor points without making the tally public. This sort of weird stuff has been popping up more and more on the forums, and it just beweilders me. (I could go further and list names of people who go waaaay too far down the "this is the players' game" path, but I don't want to spark a flame war here...)
Pardon I never said that, get it right, I was refering to why I think the way I do, not saying it was iliegal. To clarify in my country all I have to do is ask and I will get acscess to it, info stored that is related to me. This includes all files the police have on record of me.
I consider anything Janner says as me as it is me typing and playing him.
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Overreacting.
Everyone.
/tells will be logged and a Privacy Policy with a clear explanation will be added. If you don't want the GMs to see something or other, don't use the game for it. I don't understand why people fight against something that can help the game so much, when they really have nothing to defend. Nobody cares what you type as long as you don't break any rules. You don't, the log is thrown away. You do, the report function was made just for you.
Anyone who makes frivolous reports for no reason will find themselves with severe consequences to make sure it doesn't occur again.
You're not sending private emails, you're using our server which has never offered a concrete agreement to your "privacy."
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Would like to point out I am not fighting the reason as i agree with it, I don't agree that it is not privet.
Erm your server ? Thought it was Laanx Fragnetics. ;D
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Fragnetics provided the server for our use - as long as we don't kill it, we are free to use it however we want. So yes, it is our server.
*edit*
It's very possible that we'll just log the /tells shared between the reporter and reportee, and ignore everything else. That way people don't have to worry about any other private interactions, but still catch harassment if it happens.
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Fragnetics provided the server for our use - as long as we don't kill it, we are free to use it however we want. So yes, it is our server.
It is irrelevant who owns Laanx.
Only a person who is a party to a non-broadcast communication is allowed to intercept or record it.
The corporate exceptioon is where the computer that originates the message belongs to the corporation as well, and they are keylogging it.
The players' computers do not belong to you, so this does not apply.
In other words, if a GM is monitoring /tells without the knowledge or consent of any who are a party to them, then they are quite probably commiting a crime.
If PS is designed such that any GM that feels like it, can be a voyeur, and eavesdrop, then Talad and the Devs of PS could be accessories in any criminal prosecution that might result.
Finally, if a player has to chat outside of the Laanx server in order to be private, why would anyone want to use the Laanx server for anything but /say?
(ps: I second Kerol's proposal for the proper function of /report.)
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Verrliit, it's like you haven't read much of anything posted.
"Privacy Policy" implies that players have to agree to such terms before playing. Not all GMs will have access to reports. If a player needs to discuss private issues such as family finances, drug-abuse, or similar, they should do it out of the game. The game was not provided as an OOC chat medium.
Perhaps you can paint us a scenario in which a crime is committed and the devs become accessories to that crime through /report?
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Janner: For the billionth time, personal data is data about you, the person. The closest thing we have is an email address, which we don't use. The law you quoted simply doesn't apply. Just read the thing you linked to (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1998/80029--a.htm#end):
"personal data" means data which relate to a living individual who can be identified-
(a) from those data, or
(b) from those data and other information which is in the possession of, or is likely to come into the possession of, the data controller,
We have an email address (usually a junk one) and... that's it. We don't know who you are and nothing we have is related to you, a living individual, therefore nothing we have is "personal data" based upon that law. You have no right to demand to see your stupid advisor points tally, no matter how much you want to, for whatever strange reason.
Verrliit: I'm sorry, but what you just posted is mildly insane. "criminal prosecution" for looking at a /tell? You'd be laughed out of a courtroom. You have no legal expectation of privacy unless agreed upon. When you call tech support, it tells you "this call may be recorded" and if you don't like it then hang up. However, what in the world could you possibly say to that tech help guy that you couldn't stand to be recorded? Same here, we're not forcing you to use our server, and if you don't like the fact that logs can be taken then don't play. And if you really need some chat to be private... so private that no one around here can incidentally hear (and why would we even care?) then what in the world are you talking about?!
Simply put, you have no idea what you're talking about. Do you not see how insane it'd be if there were parts of our server we were allowed to look at and parts we weren't? That'd mean such stupid things as it'd be illegal to look at or even make a core dump when it crashes, as that would contain chat messages at the time. It's our system, and we dictate its usage. You simply have the choice to accept it or not.
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Actually, please DON'T accept it. :-)
You don't have to play this game.... you could show us you mean business by boycotting us.... :-)
- Venge
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I don’t know but I seem to miss a point here. Will the chat be logged all the time or only if you are /reported? If it is the later, what’s with all the ranting about privacy? You got reported for braking a ingame rule so, as american police would say, everything you say, can and will be used against you. By braking a rule you can have no claims to anything regarding the game. It is that simple. People won’t log others for fun, they will do this only when they feel offended by others and when that happens it is your fault not theirs.
PS: By saying "you" I mean all of us who play PS so there will be no confusion as to who is this reply directed to.
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I will repeat:
If a GM is monitoring /tells without the knowledge or consent of any who are a party to them, then they are quite probably commiting a crime.
If PS is designed such that any GM that feels like it, can be a voyeur, and eavesdrop, then Talad and the Devs of PS could be accessories in any criminal prosecution that might result.
If these things are not possible, or are only done under court order, then there is no problem.
If I am wrong about the legailities of the situatioin, then there is no problem.
But before you say the players have no rights, or right to privacy, I would recommend a consultation with an attorney who specializes in civil rights.
Just in case.
(ps: DaveG, the server is yours. But I think the chat is not.)
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Once again you are not reading the post correctly, I was trying to convey the reason I think like I do, not saying that the data you have on the server belongs to me, personally i don't care how owns it, at the end of the day it is only a game.
The point trying to be made hear that /tells should be privet, in most cases info is sent from one privet computer to another. It can be argued that you are in fact eavesdropping if you log the message, if i send a e mail through say BT. I am using there sever and services, going by your argument they have the right to read my mail. Don't think so do you ?
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The main point here, that no one is getting, is why does anyone care?...
Verrliit, please take off your tin-foil hat and examine the lunacy of your statements and their implications. Many servers have far worse privacy practices. We're logging a few chat messages on our server, and you know it's a posibility. If we told you we were logging every thing down to your system specs, and upon running the thing it would delete everything on your hard drive, and you still ran the thing, tough. You agreed to it.
Even if there was some nutty law that did exactly what you are saying, it'd be invalid and we could state so in court. (there's not a single law related to this that can't be overturned; they're all bran new and in flux) We have an absolute right to use our server in any way we see fit.
Janner: I have no idea what you just said.
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Allow me to repeat, Verrliit.
If a GM is monitoring /tells without the knowledge or consent of any who are a party to them, then they are quite probably commiting a crime.
Privacy Policy.
If PS is designed such that any GM that feels like it, can be a voyeur, and eavesdrop, then Talad and the Devs of PS could be accessories in any criminal prosecution that might result.
GMs will only have access to reported logs, not to every tell ever sent in the game. You still haven't provided me with an example scenario, as I requested. Perhaps if I ask you one more time.
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@ Janner: From a legal standpoint, they do. Unless stated that they won't as part of thier user agreement policy that you agreed to upon registering an account with them to use thier services. Example, skype: Read the user agreement policy sometime, it states that they have the right to look at whatever flows through their network. (At least, this was the way it was a year ago, not sure if that has change since then) Not sure about PS, is it stated in the user agreement policy what the PS team states about what they do with the chat that flows through thier server? Never really looked myself.
Edit: And since you brought up the subject of email, if you have a gmail account, in the registering for one, you agree that google may read your mail, and store copies of it for thier own purposes (mostly marketing) and whatnot. Reading the ULA sometimes can be quite the eye opener.
Last edit while I still remember it: MySpace: Reading the ULA you will see that anythin and everything posted to myspace becomes property of myspace. You agree to those terms if you create a myspace account. Again, it's all about whatthe ULA states.
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If there will be something like “By playing PS I voluntarily agree to donate my house to the PS team and my soul to Satan” in the license agreement and you click “accept” on that you have no rights to rant about anything when the devs will take your house. If the policy between the players and those who own or have rented the server states that all the communications on the server aren’t private then they just aren’t. Don’t get me wrong, I think that people should have the right to “intimacy” (notice the use of the term different from “privacy” that refers to personal data as DaveG said) but I also think that from the moment they chose to harass others or speak in a not appropriate manner OOC they also chose to give up that right.
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Verrliit,
The idea that watching the server is breaking the law is so retarded I can't resist responding to your assertion here. :-)
1. Google hit #1 when I searched on this just now was http://www.rbs2.com/privacy.htm which explains a lot about US privacy law. In its initial definition part of it says "The right of privacy is restricted to individuals who are in a place that a person would reasonably expect to be private (e.g., home, hotel room, telephone booth). There is no protection for information that either is a matter of public record or the victim voluntarily disclosed in a public place."
2. The PlaneShift server is a public place, with no expectation of privacy. The code is open source and anyone can see that the devs have access to chat data from there. The /report command is public knowledge and is well documented in code, manuals, websites and forum threads like this one, as are the (lack of) privacy issues implied therein.
3. With no expectation of privacy there is no invasion of privacy.
4. These are all USA definitions I am using because I'm American. I don't know where you are located, but perhaps Italian law should be operative here instead of USA law, since Talad is the director? Perhaps Singaporean law should trump all others because the server doing the monitoring and reporting is physically there? Perhaps the jurisdictions of the two parties involved in the leaked chat should apply? Perhaps the laws of Sweden should apply because the mirror you downloaded your client from was there? What definitions do we use? I have no idea. You seem to have a certain country's laws in mind as you write your vague accusations. What country is that?
5. If you think Sony Online and Blizzard aren't doing the same thing, (or more by logging *everything*) then you are naive. I could equally as validly argue that we on PS should log EVERYTHING anyone ever says permanently so that we have the audit trail if we are ever sued. Imagine someone kills themselves and others claim he only did it because people in PS told him to. So his parents sue PS (in what country who knows). How do we prove what happened or disprove those stories?
I'd certainly be fine with logging all chat permanently. That might be the safest legal solution for us, and disk space is cheap...
- Vengeance
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Thank you Vengence ;D
No7 Content of e-mail in public systems are confidential. 18 USC § 2702(a).
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The problem here, is that they are NO privacy statement which means no rules. So the people who says "We are going into our privacy, you should stop it" aren't wrong, but aren't right. Same for the people who say "The DEVs/GMs have the right to review any/all the logs", they aren't right but aren't wrong neither.
So please, create at least a privacy statement which CLEARLY states that any message whatsoever sent using PlaneShift or on the PlaneShift server can be logged and viewed by any authorised person which includes but is not limited to administrators and game masters.
And why don't you have a License and agreement which is displayed in the forum and when installing PlaneShift which says all the things you can and cannot do (it would also include the player's policy).
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Luckily Janner, you aren't sending emails.
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After reading so many "slightly off-topic" replies, I will just tell you my opinion here (after a brief chat with Bereror) and then probably never look at that pile of a thread again, some people obviously prefer nitpicking over basic problem solving...
It is definitely necessary for a report to see the chat log of the reporter. Because: It is not only interesting what kind of offending messages he received, but also in which context - and what he maybe did *not hear*. You will probably agree: Only half the truth is already a whole lie. There are bugs like the occasional "deafness" after crossing sector borders, not sure if they already are reliably fixed; but until we know for sure, we must assume that not everyone is able to hear the same as the person right next to him. Also talk ranges will be taken into account here. And it is always possible that a half-understood discussion may lead into a feeling of offense. Furthermore, the reporter is able to give consent to reveal his private chat in a report.
Instead, the reported target will need a certain level of protection agains report abuse. If not, it would be possible to reveal even private talk of people who are not at all offensive at that moment, just because he made an enemy who takes "revenge" by reporting and limiting the privacy of the player being reported without emergency. Especially when the reporter tries to get advantage of the fact or rumour, that his target may often talk privately about topics the staff might not enjoy...
But here I would even think, that GMs who were using e.g. criticism out of private talk from a report against the target would tend towards a level of corruption. So this would be a strong argument agains reporting the target's logs. Please note that this is just a "what-if" thought, for the case that target logs were stored! I did not call the GMs as a whole, or one specific GM, corrupt here!
So far, my personal opinion. I would enjoy if it was not used much for further nitpicking.
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I do not argue with the report function, and I like Kerol's proposed improvements to it.
I do have a major problem with the idea that a GM can eavesdrop on anyone's /tells at will.
In response to many posts, no one said that GMs can't do that.
Instead, there are attempts to justify it.
Not only is a /tell on Laanx precisely equivalent to a PM chat on the public IRC servers of Freenode, or an AOL IM, but even the official PS text says to use a /tell to whisper privately to a friend.
The expectation of privacy would remain quite clear however, even if the server were to suddenly stop saying how to use a /tell.
I find it disturbing how passionately some are insisting that they have to eavesdrop on /tells.
I find it disturbing as well, that replies to my posts would contain terms like "insane", and "retarded".
Personally attacking me, is not the response of those who feel they are firmly in the right.
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They aren't attacking you, they are attacking your weird arguments.
I have said time and time again in my replies to you that GMs cannot "eavesdrop" on anyone's /tell at will. What you don't understand about this is beyond me, but I am willing to offer further explanations as needed. The only way a GM can look at a player's /tells is if the report function is used. If it is used without any reason, the reporter will be severely punished and the useless log will be removed immediately.
We provide you with a service, and we have every right to monitor the use of that service. Is there anything further that you would like explained?
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GMs cannot eavesdrop anyone's tells. They can use their "invisibility" and eavesdrop public chats, but not tells.
The current report function is implemented in a way that is functionally equal to sending the log files from your own PC without the ability to edit them. I don't see any privacy issues here since it is your decision to give them away.
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I find it disturbing as well, that replies to my posts would contain terms like "insane", and "retarded".
Well at least they're accurate about that...
Imo, we can do what we like and if you don't like it, don't play, and no I don't care if you play or not. Maybe we should add a small section stating that we record such info in our license agreement so people can't complain. It's perfectly legal for us to record anything we like. Just like websites may keep logs of what is done on them, we may keep logs of all info that passes through our server.
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Verrliit, if the privacy policy or the Licence and Agreement says "All message sent/received while playing the game or any service provided by PlaneShift can be viewed by any authorised, this includes but is not restricted to Adminstrators and Game Masters" then, you have absolutely NOTHING to say about it, if you installed and use PlaneShift and if those statements existed, you CAN DO ANYTHING about it. But there, they are not clear Privacy Policy or Licence and Agreement, so I am afraind you aren't right or wrong (and no one is until there is a privacy policy or a license and agreement). I must say also that I didn't find anywhere here a statement which clearly says that "Any information collected on this website will not be delivered to any third parties", so yes Verrliit, your SOO precious privacy is at risk, but I trust that the DEVs/GMs won't tell in the street to everyone where you live, your real name etc.
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I know only one kind of people who would be able to read tells:
People who have direct access to the database tables. Count those on one hand!
All the others will onle see public chat, and a few lines from the reporter's log when a report was taken.
No GM can read private tells in general.
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That was in reply to a previous post.
I thought I was pointing out a posable problem area, seams I was right. Also would like to point out we are encouraged to point out posable as well as problems in game, part of being a tester, not a excuse to kick some one in the teeth because you don't agree with them. I fell very strongly that Verrliit is owed a apology,as she is only doing what we are meant to be doing.
If I am wrong then say so but don't try to kick me I bight back.
Also saying if you don't like it you don't have to play, very encouraging to see this why does anyone bother to play, test your own game if you truly believe that take vastly many more years to even think about getting a game out.
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I tried to make a lenghty post before, that could serve to fix ideas, as well as expose mine. It seems I failed in the purpose.
Situation:
1) We had a non working report function that needed to be addressed, as harassments were made, as it's reported in the BT.
2) Report function is fixed, and implements the "backwards" tracing. A dilemma arises, whose log to use, reporter or reported one. (I tried to state pro/cons of each solution. My suggestion has never been log both.)
3) Seeing concerns about privacy, I tried to suggest a method that could protect as much as possible that privacy (intimacy better, thanks Syilph) intrusion that some might feel, through a filtering system.
4) That filtering system is, right now, not implemented. Having that situation in mind, the best solution, to my eyes, was to have the reporter logs used. Because in that way the reporter and no other has the power to show or not that intimacy. As we need a report function running, I supported the have the reporter log form, since the filtering option wasn't yet implemented.
IF that option is ever considered, then surely Seytra, don't worry, tells will be surely filtered (just using the name of the reported should be enough "reported tells you" "you tell reported") so with that, I thought, any intimacy concerns would be solved, and the report would be equally useful (to my eyes).
If that filtering option is ever included, then the reported logs could be used instead of the reporter ones, without having a significant difference.
I tried now to be more concise. Let's all try to aim for a constructive suggestion posting.
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I think at this point we should just see how the system Bereror originally implemented works before suggesting modifications - that is, taking the logs of the person typing /report. If issues arise, they will be addressed then instead of now, as this is becoming a messy discussion. Volunteering your logs has no breach of privacy at all, especially if the /tell filter is put in place, so there should be no problems in that department.
Hopefully everyone will be satisfied and no tweaks will be necessary.
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I'm sorry to say this Verrliit, Janner and all those who whine about privacy being disregarded by the GMs but I feel pretty offended by these complaints. And it seems I'm not the only one. So don't complain when people will react the same way because from what I understand so far from this useless thread, all the GMs are perverted voieurs that have nothing better to do all day but to listen to what other people talk.
The report system was implemented to protect YOU from harassment, NOT to alow the GMs to evesdrop on your not-important "I-don't-care-about-it" conversation. Again, I repeat, you have to be /reported for ar GM to see your /tells and whatever the death realm you were talking about during the time you are logged. This can happen in 2 situations:
1) You offended somebody and in this case you have NO RIGHT to whine about being reported.
2) Somebody thought it is fun to report you (had that happen to me too once O.o) and in that case the person who is abusing the /report command and making us read useless logs will be punished.
I still don't see what is the problem...
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I'm sorry to say this Verrliit, Janner and all those who whine about privacy being disregarded by the GMs but I feel pretty offended by these complaints. And it seems I'm not the only one. So don't complain when people will react the same way because from what I understand so far from this useless thread, all the GMs are perverted voieurs that have nothing better to do all day but to listen to what other people talk.
The report system was implemented to protect YOU from harassment, NOT to alow the GMs to evesdrop on your not-important "I-don't-care-about-it" conversation. Again, I repeat, you have to be /reported for ar GM to see your /tells and whatever the death realm you were talking about during the time you are logged. This can happen in 2 situations:
1) You offended somebody and in this case you have NO RIGHT to whine about being reported.
2) Somebody thought it is fun to report you (had that happen to me too once O.o) and in that case the person who is abusing the /report command and making us read useless logs will be punished.
I still don't see what is the problem...
It seams you mist my post saying "But i do see the need to access it if a player is being rude ect. So I give my permission to accesses it in my case if needed " also like to pint out not once in this thread have i complained "whine about privacy being disregarded by the GMs"
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I know only one kind of people who would be able to read tells:
People who have direct access to the database tables. Count those on one hand!
All the others will onle see public chat, and a few lines from the reporter's log when a report was taken.
No GM can read private tells in general.
GMs cannot eavesdrop anyone's tells. They can use their "invisibility" and eavesdrop public chats, but not tells.
Thank you so much, sweeties. That was the only technical concern that I had issue with.
As for those who decided to flame me, rather than simply provide such an answer:
I find it disturbing as well, that replies to my posts would contain terms like "insane", and "retarded".
Well at least they're accurate about that...
Imo, we can do what we like and if you don't like it, don't play, and no I don't care if you play or not. Maybe we should add a small section stating that we record such info in our license agreement so people can't complain. It's perfectly legal for us to record anything we like. Just like websites may keep logs of what is done on them, we may keep logs of all info that passes through our server.
I was concerned by the idea of a GM reading private /tells, without anyone knowing...
I insulted no one, at any time.
/report Xordan.
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The only problem I see in all this off-topic chatter is that we miss an EULA with a clear statement on privacy data, intimacy and under what circumstances devs and GMs will take advantage of their right to read through logs.
This problem can and will be solved; and after it became clear for everyone that devs don't eavesdrop although they could (I think they have better things to do ^^) and GMs simply can't read /tells without /report I think we can go back on topic.
So far I only got one reply on my suggestion to review what has been logged, what do other people (Bereror?) think about it?
I don't like the suggestion to filter /report in any way, as many people insult in public, no matter what. And as GMs are supposed to take players logs only as hint and not as evidence (as they can be altered), griefers will just do all insults in public.. and would be pretty safe as long as a GM isn't around and hear it by himself.
If only the communication between reporter and target is logged, it would be very hard for GMs to find out eventual missing pieces in many cases.
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Well ... reading a report before sending it, could be useful for those cases where the target was convinced that his sentences were offensive, which is not tolerated, and he apologized credibly and will avoid it in future - so the reporter gets a chance to cancel the report. It is usually a good behaviour to "sleep a night before accusing someone".
The risk here might be that the { server / reporter's client } crashes before the report was sent.
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I don't like the suggestion to filter /report in any way, as many people insult in public, no matter what. And as GMs are supposed to take players logs only as hint and not as evidence (as they can be altered), griefers will just do all insults in public.. and would be pretty safe as long as a GM isn't around and hear it by himself.
If only the communication between reporter and target is logged, it would be very hard for GMs to find out eventual missing pieces in many cases.
The filter suggestion affects the tell channel, as has been agreed is the one that most likely will contain intimacy issues. So only the tells between reported and reporter are the ones surviving. Chat and auction are left without filtering (unless after testing the system, its seen the need of trying to filter those channels too.)
Also, having the server keeping track of what is being said, ensures that the resulting logs haven't been altered by players.
As for your suggestion, I personally find that, adding more commands/parameters, complicates things. If one is being harassed, the easier for him/her to launch the report process is, the better.
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If the server just keeps on logging until the reporter cancels or logs out, then people will forget, meaning gigabytes of useless logs. That's why there must be a timeout. A command for retroactively cancelling one's own report (not reports on the target in general, as others obviously may have had otrher reasons to report them) sounds viable as well, and it wouldn't have to be used or known.
Anyway, a privacy statement on the website is preferrable to putting it (solely?) in the EULA, since the EULA is invalid in many countries.
However, let me state some things that I mayh notr have made clear yet:
The issue is not that I think that GMs are, by default, malicious voyeurs. In fact, I view the GM team as quite integer. Yet, there have been and will always be cases where that isn't the case. These will be individual cases, not general ones. Still, this should be adressed and it's effect reduced to a minimum, not least in self-interest of the GM team for maintaining credibility.
The filter would (or should) not apply to any public channels. In fact, it should aply solely to /tells. I think that is the intent, but seems to have not come accross correctly.
Logs aren't permanently stored, and instead removed when dealt with.
The combination of a privacy statement ("We reserve the right to intercept traffic and read it to maintain a good environment and proper operation, but won't do so without reason") and a logging feature of the sort described (with /tell filter and public logging) seems as a solution that is fair to everyone. It would indeed be stupid to try to restrict the devs / GM's access to things they reasonably need, like look at core dumps and /report logs. It would, however, also not be wise to needlessly reduce player "rights".
In light of this, it is my opinion that insisting on laws of some form or another is very counterproductive, since it not only creates unnecessary tension complicating things, but also is quite muddy since it is not clear what law could / should possibly apply. There is already way too much suing in the world, most of which could have been avoided by use of common sense on both sides.
Thus, even though under law it would likely be possible to construct an EULA/privacy statement combination that takes any right to privacy and intimacy from the players, doing so would be a mistake. Likewise, the opposite, forcing the PS team to ask for each and every line of communication, would be a mistake.
The middle ground everyone should be (and AFAICS is) aiming for is to log and look at only what is reasonably necessary, and it seems that throughout this (comparatively civilised discussion considering the topic and length) a sort of consensus about that has already been reached anyway, and that is:
Log the public chat of either reporter or reported (or both in light of the selective mute bug, which at least wasn't solved before laanx was taken down).
Also log /tells exchanged between these parties, via the filter.
Put that in the privacy statement, along with a line stating that while best efforts are made, it cannot be guaranteed that other things get reviewed accidently.
It would allow the team to do what is necessary, and be reasonable towards the players. Also, the team will not have to worra ybout possible abusers within their own ranks, not players in that case. What isn't there can't be abused, so it is, in a way, also a protection for the GMs.
It is my impression that this discussion has been far from useless, as it has given rise to issues that would likely have caused serious grief in the long run.
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The filter suggestion affects the tell channel, as has been agreed is the one that most likely will contain intimacy issues.
I think you will find that most intimacy occurs in /group. It does for me.
Romantic RP can take hours. No one really does that in /tell.
Additionally, if a player refuses to group with an abusive player, there can be no problem in group.
Worst case, a group of more than two, with an abusive player as a member, can disband and reform without the abusive player.
Abuse that is in private, must rise to a severe level indeed, to require intervention.
Guild chat is similar.
A guildmaster can kick a player, and players can leave a bad guildmaster.
I do not see the need for the system to log any private convsersation at all, unless it involves a RL criminal situation, or conspiracy.
Short of harrassment, I believe privacy includes the right to be merely obnoxious.
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EULAs exist to inform you of what's already being done, and not as an agreement. It's already been ruled many times that no one can really put whatever they want in there. The point is it's our server, and we by default have the right to do whatever we want with it. The default situation is that players have no privacy and no rights, and it's arrogant to think that somehow you do. It's also insane to think that somehow you should care.
Please people, don't pretend that there's somehow piles of legal precedent here valid in multiple countries. Take all these laws together and everything is both legal and illegal. We don't really care what some random country says; we'll go on American and British law because (like it or not) they have the most infulence over these things. If some country made some law saying this wasn't allowed, good for them, they have not say in the matter.
The main point that's being missed by people assuming some sort of privacy or rights is the concept of what's "yours". You're saying "it's my data" or stuff about "my character". That's the fundamental flaw in your logic here, it's not your data. It is and will always be our data on our network using our server, and we grant you the privelege of using it. You're not even paying for it, and that wouldn't really change much unless you agreed to a contract to the contrary. The privacy laws protect us from you.
The main reason we don't want to filter or agree to selectively log is because it'd be a messy nightmare. We're not going to agree to have to tiptoe like idiots over our own servers. And we don't care at all about your invalid privacy concerns. You're ranting like there is something in your favor, and there never was. You can't just claim privacy. We're not going to handicap our ability to even look at our data just to satisfy a meanigless claim.
Additionally, you should remember that everything you do here is annonymous. We don't know who you are. Therefore no privacy laws apply, as they require personal data.
Unless someone can even come up with something legitamate that would need protection of privacy from us, and something we couldn't legitametly see, shut up. You're spinning your wheels here without the slightest shred of backup to your claims. You're missusing laws to apply them to stuff they have nothing to do with. Sorry to break it to you, but we have rights too, and our rights protect our ability to use our server.
Verrliit: Are people having cybersex in /tells or something nuts like that? What in the world would be that private? And, on top of that, how could you justify that it's still your stuff and you're somehow allowed to magically extend your rights into our server? Especially because even if it was made public, it couldn't be traced back to you unless you were already stupid enough to put up enough personal info for someone to figure out who you are.
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Well put DaveG
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I can "put it" how ever I want, but I find it highly unlikely that anyone will either understand or stop ranting.
Let's say it again for those who missed it. Common people, say it with me:
It's not your data.
It is our server.
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DaveG:
I could be wrong.
But I believe that the laws that apply to every other chat and IM server, also apply to Laanx.
And I imagine that some of the married couples who play in PS, do indeed and quite appropriately have chat-sex, prior to, or instead of the real thing.
I also imagine that more than one RL love affair has begun in PS.
What is so nuts about that?
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It seams you mist my post saying ....
Janner it seems every where you post and every topic you talk about ... you say this statment ALOT. *Zorbels points above* Maybe the problem isn't the people who are reading your posts and trying to understand you and answer you. Maybe it is the way you are communitcating. I think it is time someone pointed out that maybe YOU are not the on who is clear. I read your posts in this thread over and over trying to understand whay you were saying, I still can't figure it out and I don't want to ask because the first thing you will say is what I quoted up top. Can I suggest one thing..... When writing a post could you maybe google some of the words you using and look at the definiton to make sure it fits into the sentence. WIth most of your posts I feel that I have to play the guessing game ... does he mean this? Or does he mean this? I am not trying to attack you in the least, I am only trying to help, but I am getting sick of seeing what is quoted above.
About the rest of the topic ... This is really so sad that so much time and thought was put into these foolish arguments. The Dev's, and GM's have stated many times they cannot just listen in to a /tell, the proper steps have to be taken first. Even if they could, what the hell are you hiding that you don't want them to hear in game. If you are that bothered by them having access to /tell and /group, as I suggest ealier in this thread, take it into a messanger. There problem fixed. This is a roleplaying game, not a secret government site. I still don't see the point in all this worry.
As for intimacy and the fear of the GM's and Dev being able to see it. Well I think that fear is healthy. You want to know why? Because there are alot of kids who play this game and there are also alot of sick people out there. I personally would hate to see a 12 having "intimacy" with another player who maybe a 30 year old child molester. So for the safety of the children, remember this isn't just a adults game and try not to be so selfish with your requests, keep their safety in the back of your head. As a mother I would appreciate that.
(http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/4125/throwingpaper1da.gif)
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Verrliit, please read. It'll do you ever-so-much good in the end.
I do not see the need for the system to log any private convsersation at all, unless it involves a RL criminal situation, or conspiracy.
As I have said here before, I have caught, and have had people admit to, harassing others in /tell. It happens. It exists. It has to be dealt with. So you can close your eyes and put your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALA" or you can listen to a GM who knows what measures are necessary to cover multiple bases and prevent abuse.
I love this selective reading we have going on in this thread.
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But I believe that the laws that apply to every other chat and IM server, also apply to Laanx.
They do, and as I already said, the law allows us to do whatever we want with our servers. Chat servers agree to give you privacy, and I think it's fair to say that they don't call it absolute. (don't be so dumb as to think your AIM messages are guaranteed to be private; that's nuts) Also note that Laanx is not a chat server. Yes, I know people seem to act like that, but it's a freakin' game people. Chatting should not be your primary activity.
I love this selective reading we have going on in this thread.
Welcome to laws.
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Verrliit, please read. It'll do you ever-so-much good in the end.
I do not see the need for the system to log any private convsersation at all, unless it involves a RL criminal situation, or conspiracy.
As I have said here before, I have caught, and have had people admit to, harassing others in /tell. It happens. It exists. It has to be dealt with. So you can close your eyes and put your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALA" or you can listen to a GM who knows what measures are necessary to cover multiple bases and prevent abuse.
I love this selective reading we have going on in this thread.
My very next line was:
Short of harrassment, I believe privacy includes the right to be merely obnoxious.
As you can see, we are in agreement about harrassment.
I believe you maye be guilty of the selective reading yourself.
But I doubt it was intentional.
And I remember missing a date stamp myself, not so long ago...
It was rather embarassing when Seytra pointed it out, quite properly, and with unusual sensitivity. Smiley
Also note that Laanx is not a chat server. Yes, I know people seem to act like that, but it's a freakin' game people.
The fact that this chat server is used to play a game, does not mean it ceases to be a chat server.
Chatting should not be your primary activity.
So much for RP...
Bah! Sorry, hit the modify button instead of quote... It's all back... I think... >.< --DaveG
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As you can see, we are in agreement about harrassment.
Awesome, so there is then no further reason to posting :)
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Chatting should not be your primary activity.
So much for RP...
This thread is beggining to annoy me, so I'm going to go the lazy way and quote what's been said a billion times:
Moreover, there are a lot of people who for some strange reason think that roleplaying means standing in one spot and being all "bardic." This is nonsense. Roleplay is doing anything in-game as your character, instead of the player sitting at the computer. You can train at the Arena for hours and be in-character. The only thing that matters, is that you interact as much as possible with the characters of other people, instead of the players.
Chatting furiously is not what I'd call a video game.
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I insulted no one, at any time.
Didn't say you did ;) I was speaking generally.
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If someone when this thead started had told me it would go to 9 pages, I would've laughed at him.
What are all you people whining about?
This is a game, it's not real life, why would you care some GM reads your chat?
And in normal conditions, you wouldn't even end up in the situation that someone reads your chat.
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Xordan, [hope i'm not stepping on anyone's toes, or misinterpretting-- but] i think the point o verrliit saying that thing about not having insulted anyone was:
It appeared you were [whether directly or indirectly] insulting that user when you quoted verrliit & made the statement proclaiming the accuracy of judgements regarding insanity and retardedness, which are definitions the individual had already made clear s/he found disturbing. (not sure if verrliit is fe/male)
note: at the end of the post you've most recently quoted was the command '/report xordan' [presumably jokingly, but still; pretty clear message IMHO]
PS--ThomPhoenix: are you posting that just to make it longer? Cause it seems to me that you are not contributing to the discussion by asking "What are you people whining about?"--if you read the entire thread before replying then you already have an idea. Same goes for your following question. The last statement you make seems inaccurate, or at the least unclear. Either way, without being certain what qualifies as spam or needless posting; i get the distinct impression your recent post falls under one of those headings.
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Let's not end up beating a dead horse here :)
All information passed through our server may be recorded and used at our descretion. This is entirely legal, and we will definitely make this clear and visible for all players. All communications, actions, stats will never be disclosed to third parties, and can be analyzed only by trusted Game Masters with the purpose of ensuring a strong enforcement of anti-harassment rules, with the final objective of having a better game for all players.
If this does not sit well with anyone, we do not force you to play our game, nor do we charge you for your time nor require any expenses. I do not think that this is an unreasonable action on our part, and although we do listen to player input, policies ultimately rest in the hands of the PS team.
As long as this is added to the end user license agreement, there are no issues here.
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EULAs exist to inform you of what's already being done, and not as an agreement.
That's wrong. EULA = End User License Agreement
It indeed _is_ an agreement between provider and user on the rights and restrictions, terms and conditions of a service.
As to which law applies, I wondered that already because of another thread sometime ago. Here is the answer:
[11 Jun 06 15:58] Ker_lap: just wanted to know under which constitution/law of a country PS is, for instance in regard of storing personal data
[11 Jun 06 16:32] Talad: the non profit org is registered in Texas, USA
Romantic RP can take hours. No one really does that in /tell.
Additionally, if a player refuses to group with an abusive player, there can be no problem in group.
Worst case, a group of more than two, with an abusive player as a member, can disbnd and reform without the abusive player.
That doesn't hinder sick children abusers to invite into /group and actually rape (in "RP") with the threat to not tell a GM.. If /report would filter such channels there would be no way to conter that.
For the billionth time, personal data is data about you, the person. The closest thing we have is an email address, which we don't use. The law you quoted simply doesn't apply.
Actually email-address is more than sufficient to relate data to a natural person. I tell this according to a crime inspector I had a conversation about virtual crime investigation.
Police wouldn't need the chat logs on our server to investigate in a RL crime committed (respective planned) in PS. The /reported logs are for GM use only, at first hand.
Additionally, you should remember that everything you do here is annonymous. We don't know who you are. Therefore no privacy laws apply, as they require personal data.
It is true that _we_ don't know who you are, but it is very much possible to find out the identity of someone, just not with the means we have usually.
Laws however don't take into consideration what we or someone else knows, but usually apply in general. Therefor I beg to refrain from that generalisation.
The risk here might be that the { server / reporter's client } crashes before the report was sent.
If the log gets written directly while logging, this risk would be minimized. It would just run till the client either sends a "stop logging" or disconnects. Don't see a real issue there.
If the server just keeps on logging until the reporter cancels or logs out, then people will forget, meaning gigabytes of useless logs.
I disagree. Take a look at your own chatlog. The biggest chatlog of mine is about 13 MB big, and thats for about a half year with over thousand online hours.
So this would be an issue if all players hit /report each and every time they log on...
or both in light of the selective mute bug, which at least wasn't solved before laanx was taken down
I guess this bug is client-sided, but even if it is server sided, we shouldn't take bugs into consideration when discussing things like that.
I believe this thread doesn't serve much purpose if the majority isn't able to keep cool..
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Let's not end up beating a dead horse here :)
But that's all these forums are for. :P
Kerol: Yes, you're talking about the intent of a EULA. I was being pragmatic, and reffering to the general abuse of such systems.
Anyone can find out who anyone is, with less information than an email address. Annonymity is an illusion; we can find out who you are if we feel the need to put the effort in. As I already said, yes an email address counts as "personal data", but that's all we have. We don't have any pesonal data that can reasonably be used by us to trace back to a living individual. (we're not exactly the NSA here)
Again I say, there is no report sent. The entire process is done on the server. The server keeps a running buffer of recent messages, and then after a /report writes to a file and continues logging to that file afterwards.
Speaking of tells, there used to be a bug where tells would randomly be misdirected. I remember more than one occasion when I got a tell conversation from someone else. :P
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Romantic RP can take hours. No one really does that in /tell.
Additionally, if a player refuses to group with an abusive player, there can be no problem in group.
Worst case, a group of more than two, with an abusive player as a member, can disbnd and reform without the abusive player.
That doesn't hinder sick children abusers to invite into /group and actually rape (in "RP") with the threat to not tell a GM.. If /report would filter such channels there would be no way to conter that.
As for intimacy and the fear of the GM's and Dev being able to see it. Well I think that fear is healthy. You want to know why? Because there are alot of kids who play this game and there are also alot of sick people out there. I personally would hate to see a 12 having "intimacy" with another player who maybe a 30 year old child molester. So for the safety of the children, remember this isn't just a adults game and try not to be so selfish with your requests, keep their safety in the back of your head. As a mother I would appreciate that.
(http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/4125/throwingpaper1da.gif)
I am glad someone agree's with me. Makes me think better of this conversation about the /report command. It is very easy to talk children into doing things they don't understand or shouldn't be doing. Mostly because they are curious and don't know any better, or do know better but are given the option to do it. I know for a fact .... though I will not name names ... That there is a player in this game who is in their 30's and cyber's with a 13 year old. I find that very unsettling and wrong. The adult should know better. So if I have to sacrifice my privacy to prevent that sort of situation from happening and have this 30 year old fear being caught. Good! I am all for it.
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My goodness this is an exhaustively long thread. Anyways, on to my personal input.
I support the system described. I feel that having some previous /says also recorded would prevent a harasser from logging out to avoid incrimination. I would be somewhat concerned about the warning that is given, because if a person is harassing someone it would be easy to figure out who sent the report. The harasser could then get others to bother the reporter. Personally, I have had someone bother me in game, insulting and cursing and such, so I feel the /report command is good when someone just won't leave someone else alone.
As it has been pointed out earlier, the devs and GMs are doing this service for free. It seems rather childish and very ungrateful for some people who take advantage of this service they provide, to then yell at them and threaten to bring law suits against them.
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I believe this thread doesn't serve much purpose if the majority isn't able to keep cool..
Unfortunately, the ones losing their cool were staff members.
This, all by itself, serves to undermine confidence in them.
And those who are certain their position is valid, do not attempt to convince people by yelling and name-calling.
DaveG:
I see from your previous post, that you have regained your composure, and I thank you for informing us of the mechanics of /report logging on the server.
I found it very helpful.
Zorbels:
Sweetie, I have two teenagers, and though they are boys, I worry about them too.
But I do not see how a predator could threaten a child to silence, in PS.
I think that only a GM or Admin could possibly do it.
If there are any predators, perhaps that is the first place to look.
I also believe that teenaged children have the right to RP a romance, and to have a RL romance as well.
Of course, this means that the grownups have to be wary of children pretending to be older...
It is not too difficult to handle...
Suzuka249:
No one yelled at GMs, or threatened them with legal action.
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Verrliit, your reluctance to let this argument go and understand the necessity of /report with /tells is both disturbing and comical. You can feel as confident as you want about your ludicrous positions, but I have absolutely no qualms about stating them as such, just as I have no problems justifying feeling irritated if an individual in a discussion does not understand the points that have been made, time after time.
I understand that you are very distrustful of all authority figures except yourself and those under you, and cannot help but sprinkle mud on the GM team whenever the chance arises - I have never seen you miss a chance. I am sure that in your mind your actions are perfectly justified.
However this continuous back and forth "debate" is just sinking lower and lower, and I do not appreciate many of these finger-pointing posts.
If there is anything further that you or anyone needs explained about the implementation of the command, my PM inbox is open.