PlaneShift

Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Siofra on November 03, 2006, 12:00:12 am

Title: In game languages
Post by: Siofra on November 03, 2006, 12:00:12 am: I understand that the player policy states that you should only speak english in main chat. However, I was warned with muting by a GM earlier on for speaking the *enki* language in the main chat.

Fair enough that it goes against the player policy, so I understand the GM's point of view. However.. can the players policy be modified to take into account in game languages like enki or dwarvish? I find they really add to the in game experience, adding a touch of realism and diversity to RP.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: zanzibar on November 03, 2006, 12:07:45 am: The problem with inventing languages is that they aren't a part of the settings and so you'll encounter problems like people not agreeing with them, or taking too many liberties with them, and so on. Personally, I think that if you "speak" a long lost language common to some obscure nomadic tribe, I think that's entirely believable. With the enki language, there are probably multiple enki languages and dialects from ancient times, so it can work out if several different people each invent a language.

Personally, I'd love to work on a written language for the game. It's something I've thought about from time to time. The problem is, there isn't a good use for it, there's no way to implimen it in game as a player, and it's a lot of work for little payoff... unless you write entire texts in the language, post them on the forum, and then have some sort of benefit for people to read said texts. But I don't like that either since I feel that RPing should be encouraged to happen in the game as opposed to on the forum.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Suno_Regin on November 03, 2006, 12:10:06 am: Think of it this way - We're all speaking the Yliakum language, just it's translated in English for the players outside of the characters.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: bilbous on November 03, 2006, 12:10:54 am: I'm just curious here but, is this language something you and other enkis have developed independently? Have you adopted an earthly language as the enki language? Is there an officially sanctioned language? Perhaps If you developed it among yourselves a good idea would be to post a link to an english-enki dictionary page on the forums and try to legitimize its use in game. I am not saying that this is all that you would need to do but certainly posting a discussion thread here in the forums might be a start.

Hey. I guess this thread could be adapted to the purpose. ;)
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Kalika on November 03, 2006, 12:12:24 am: i understand that not everyone understands the enki dialect and what not but i do agree with Siofra that using any dialect native to the game does heighten the experience of the roleplay

jsut like some of the Npc's say litttle bits and piece of whatever language they are speaking (i know none of the sayings) and you can still understand what they are saying. Im not promoting full blown use of the language in the game but being able to say hello and/or goodbye would be nice...i wasnt aware that there was any problem with this till today...
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Siofra on November 03, 2006, 12:13:39 am: Quote from: zanzibar on November 03, 2006, 12:07:45 am
The problem with inventing languages is that they aren't a part of the settings and so you'll encounter problems like people not agreeing with them, or taking too many liberties with them, and so on.

This isn't something invented by players. You can find out the various enki words and phrases by talking to NPCs in Oja etc. I figured as the *developers* put this in the game it should be allowed to be spoken in game.

Quote from: bilbous on November 03, 2006, 12:10:54 am
I am not saying that this is all that you would need to do but certainly posting a discussion thread here in the forums might be a start.

Indeed. I think Moogie (?) Did most of the hard work and and research to find out what the various words and phrases mean. With their permission I would like to post what has been worked out so far.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Karyuu on November 03, 2006, 12:20:52 am: Definitely post your findings -

Were you warned because you were using the non-English language extensively, or just bits and pieces?
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Siofra on November 03, 2006, 12:25:35 am: Quote from: Karyuu on November 03, 2006, 12:20:52 am
Definitely post your findings -

Were you warned because you were using the non-English language extensively, or just bits and pieces?

I was warned after using one phrase (three words). I use the greetings and farewells as often as I would normally say hello and farewell.

Below is the enki I have been sent to date. As said in my previous post, I can't claim any credit for discovering any of this, just for using it ;)

----------------

Simple words

mo = my
tabei = friend
samota = thanks

Suffix "olo" means "you" or "your". Examples: Samotolo (thank "you"), puntijholo ("your" presence)

Suffix "eti" is personal possessive. Example: Dirapheti (my child).

----------------

Phrases

Grrensholo, Taajho = I greet you, stranger. (Pleasant)

Grruenshgho, Taajho = Greetings, stranger. (Unpleasant)

mo samoti = my thanks

samotolo = thank you

puntijholo = your presence

samota de puntijholo = thanks for your presence

Mo samoti da rrrive = probably means "my thanks for your welcome" (after being welcomed with 'Sibh Tabei')

Mo tabei = my friend

bon shrdah = good journey/farewell

sibh tabei = welcome friend (not welcome = hello, but welcome = delighted to see a friend)

dhuryas en'ta = take care, be careful

Vensalla demahin da pontolo = Joy on the day of your creation (birthday)

Chulota jho napherr da mojilanodh = (I never worked this one out, so I don't know its translation)

Tresshalnolo, dirapheti. Aralost nofsa bishnahg. = patience, my child. All things in time.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: miadon on November 03, 2006, 12:26:42 am: i would love to use a in game language as a way of forming different communitie enki language, kran language, etc, and using English as the common tung. There already are bits and pieces of a yliakum language here and there, the prefixes on the names of some of the months show that
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Karyuu on November 03, 2006, 12:29:03 am: Wow, I had no idea all these were around :) How did you find them, just NPC interaction? Very cool.

Did you try explaining to the GM who contacted you that you were only using known Enkidukai words? I think in this case it's perfectly fine, and to restrict the usage of all non-English words in public is rather harsh. As long as you're not writing out paragraphs, that is ;)
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: zanzibar on November 03, 2006, 12:29:27 am: Whoa, you found all that out in game?! Shows what I know!
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Siofra on November 03, 2006, 12:35:04 am: Quote from: zanzibar on November 03, 2006, 12:29:27 am
Whoa, you found all that out in game?! Shows what I know!

*I* didn't find it out personally. Of course, i could have been misled by the whole thing :whistling: . Can others confirm any of this? :detective: Moogie?

Quote from: Karyuu on November 03, 2006, 12:29:03 am
Did you try explaining to the GM who contacted you that you were only using known Enkidukai words? I think in this case it's perfectly fine, and to restrict the usage of all non-English words in public is rather harsh. As long as you're not writing out paragraphs, that is ;)

I am not complaining about the GM as they were just doing thier job. My question was whether the player policy could be modified to allow usage of in game languages so that the GM does not *have* to warn about non-english languages all of the time.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Karyuu on November 03, 2006, 12:43:30 am: Quote from: Siofra on November 03, 2006, 12:35:04 am
My question was whether the player policy could be modified to allow usage of in game languages so that the GM does not *have* to warn about non-english languages all of the time.

It makes sense :) Silly to put in a language and then ask players not to use it. I'll add a note however that English should still be the main language, and playing a character that only speaks your (anyone's) version of Enkidukai or similar, won't do.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: zanzibar on November 03, 2006, 12:49:07 am: I think that it's safe to say that Moogie is a "cannon" source of information for things like this.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Siofra on November 03, 2006, 12:53:30 am: Quote from: Karyuu on November 03, 2006, 12:43:30 am
It makes sense :) Silly to put in a language and then ask players not to use it. I'll add a note however that English should still be the main language, and playing a character that only speaks your (anyone's) version of Enkidukai or similar, won't do.

Agreed. I like the flavour a few words can add to a conversation. That said, however, I would find it amusing to see a group of snobby enki sitting in the Kada-El conversing quietly amongst themselves in pure Enkidukai.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: zanzibar on November 03, 2006, 12:57:40 am: Quote from: Siofra on November 03, 2006, 12:53:30 am
Quote from: Karyuu on November 03, 2006, 12:43:30 am
It makes sense :) Silly to put in a language and then ask players not to use it. I'll add a note however that English should still be the main language, and playing a character that only speaks your (anyone's) version of Enkidukai or similar, won't do.

Agreed. I like the flavour a few words can add to a conversation. That said, however, I would find it amusing to see a group of snobby enki sitting in the Kada-El conversing quietly amongst themselves in pure Enkidukai.

That's the kind of distasteful and exclusive behaviour people are hoping to avoid though. It's like having a private discussion (group chat) infront of Harnquist, or having a loud "RP" infront of Harnquist but not letting others contribute or interact with it.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Kalika on November 03, 2006, 12:58:36 am: than someone could politely inquire as to the meanings in conversation if they cared enough :flowers:
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Siofra on November 03, 2006, 01:02:52 am: Quote from: zanzibar on November 03, 2006, 12:57:40 am
That's the kind of distasteful and exclusive behaviour people are hoping to avoid though. It's like having a private discussion (group chat) infront of Harnquist, or having a loud "RP" infront of Harnquist but not letting others contribute or interact with it.

I completely disagree. They would still having the conversation in public chat, and potentially others could understand if they had knowledge in the language. It would be in character with the world, whereas any group or guild chat is simplly OOC in my opinion. I have passed large guild meetings many times and wondered why a huge group of people were standing around in silence. If someone is having an loud RP in from of Harnquist and does not let anyone else interact, that is simply a bad RPer.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Seytra on November 03, 2006, 01:37:40 am: First off, I don't think that one can actually have much of a conversation, given the limited set of words and phrases, let alone grammar.
Second, it shouldn't be overdone, as usual. Sure it's nice to drop a few phrases here and there, or to sprinkle some words into the conversation. However, the question that one must ask oneself is: "would my character actually do that?". The reason is simple: when you are brought up with two languages (one "local" one "universal"), and you talk to someone who isn't from your "local" group, would you not avoid using words and phrases from your local language, as much as possible, in order to reduce chances of misunderstandings and out of courtesy?

The way I see the NPCs in Ojaveda, for example, is that some words of the Enki tongue have migrated into their local dialect of Yliakums common tongue. I don't think they're merely unable to speak the common tongue properly (if this were the case, they'd have trouble with more complex phrases, not with the common ones like "tabei"!).

Even if it were different, it would not be good to de-facto require any player to learn an additional language simply to be able to play a specific race. If nothing else, it would more or less force players who have comparatively little time to play only the races with no own language, which we clearly cannot allow to happen.

Additionally, the use of full phrases in /say, especially if prolonged, may create the impression that foreign languages are allowed to be used in /say. A new player will be unable to see any difference between the Enkidukai language and any one of the many RL languages the player doesn't speak, quite possibly resulting in the formation of RL langauge groups. This will in turn add to the confusion.

The use in special, character- or quest-specific, occasions (like notes, etc.) is OK, but there must be a public and easily accessible dictionary at least, in order to not exclude players. It would be better to immediately provide the translation in brackets, and let the reader decide if / how well they understand it. I've come accross one player who does this (though IIRC with elvish).

Therefore, I think
Quote from: Karyuu on November 03, 2006, 12:29:03 am
As long as you're not writing out paragraphs
should be more like "as long as it's just a few words at a time".
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Darkmoon on November 03, 2006, 02:41:58 am: I think it's time I step in.

Enkien is a language I began developing while designing several hundred Enkis for Ojaveda a couple years ago. At first, it was a simple smattering of a few words to mix into the common tongue in order for them to retain and display pride in their native culture. It has since grown into what it is today, and is still growing. I see nothing wrong with players using this language in-game, as long as other players don't feel ostracized by it (i.e.- using it exclusively in order to separate yourself/group from the rest).

I do come on IRC from time to time and drop a few words or phrases, which tends to cause confusionfor those who don't know and elation for those who know what it is and recognize it. Overuse in-game is very frowned upon, but feel free to sprinkle words/phrases in your RP.

Here are some additions to what's been posted so far:

Mo samoti da rrrive topatendho - I am thankful that here you have arrived anyway. (thankful you are here/have gotten here)
Mo dhorreti ento dhorretolo siino tonphrren - My language and your language are not similar
Ashreto-de - too bad/a shame
Noti venna dhorrhet - you don't know the language I speak
Not'Eso sebhtolo - you're welcome
Joh tiishme? - what is wrong?
Joh tiishmolo? - what is wrong with you?
Dajiil - indeed
Ajha - sure/okay
bonnhetolo - good for you
phonweh - place
jhu phonweh - this place
gwa - why
osghet - quiet
du - so/very
vaatholo - idiot (you)
vaatjho - idiot (general)
osghet - quiet
osghetholo - quiet, you; you be quiet
Taajho - stranger

This is still not everything, but represents 90% of it. Have fun. :)
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Siofra on November 03, 2006, 02:49:59 am: Quote from: Darkmoon on November 03, 2006, 02:41:58 am
Here are some additions to what's been posted so far:

Wonderful! Thank you Darkmoon.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Arka on November 03, 2006, 09:15:27 am: I for one, am all in favour of developing in game languages - my character is a linguist and inherited several notebooks from her mother on the 'lost' language of the Stonebreakers. So when I pick up smatterings of Enki or Elvish (as I have in talking to other characters) I am delighted - it adds to the realism for me.

There are several of us now that have brief conversations (in /tell) completely in Stonebreaker, there are also stories and songs written in Stonebreaker. I occasionally drop small phrases in 'open' speech, like 'Garamdor' (Thankyou) or 'Dol Garartth' (Good luck)

The logic is that we all come from different races, with different origins. Over time we will adopt the dominant language, Ylian in this case. But culturally we will have retained sayings and phrases from our hertage - this is one of our differences, as is our appearance, our psychology and our physical attributes - part of what makes this a diverse society. Language defines culture. Having the option to learn your ancestral language can only deepen your commitment to your race and build greater rapport between you and your IG character. This has to benefit RP, rather than distract from it.

As for Stonebreaker ('Pel Perrakithor'), the dictionary now has 500+ words and is still being developed, and there is a fairly full grammer structure. Those of you who are interested might want to PM me - I haven't gone 'fully public' with this as I wanted it to be more complete and I can't cope with mass teaching (although I have about 10 students in game who are making good progress).

I showed Talad the dictionary altough it was in the early stages then and he expressed some interest.

@Darkmoon - I'd like to exchange notes with you and will PM you my sources.

Let's keep an open mind on this - a lot of people are having a whole load of fun with this.

Dol Felim (Joy to you all)

Arka Garam
Praesidior and Head of Faculty, Language and Culture
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Peacer on November 03, 2006, 09:39:17 am: I've been speaking elvish for a long time now... the first one to use an in game language. (I think.)

The language is tolkien, a worked good worked out language. Until a lost book of yliakish elvish is found I will continue using this ^^.

aaye, oio naa eleala alasse' sut naa lle umien?

quel diola lle

namaarie ar' quel marth edan
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Akaye on November 03, 2006, 09:52:30 am: Absolutely awesome Darkmoon! Love the language. I have notice these enki phrases around lately and have been meaning to find out what they mean but love how they enter my roleplay. It isn't over done and it is very fun ... something new ... and something us players who have been playing planehsift awhile can appreciate because of it's ablities to add to roleplay.

I highly recommend that you trade notes with Arka as she has been working hard with others to create a dwarven language and has been successful with it.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Hadfael on November 03, 2006, 10:01:52 am: It is always possible to develop sub-cultures, dialects, slangs, tongues, customs and such. It helps to feel part of community to know them.
Why not encouraging them?
To develop some kind of 1337|\|355 is not really the best thing to do in order to have a friendly welcoming community.
If the community becomes too communal or clannish there is little need to share a common server.
It is already enough to call people n00bs when they are only newcomers.

See the potential and evaluate the risks.

Don't forget that the main purpose of language to transport information from the one talking to the one listening. Trying to catch the listeners attention by hidding you message one thing. So unless you want to use cryptography in your dialogs you better use the common language.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Peacer on November 03, 2006, 10:07:05 am: Quote from: Hadfael on November 03, 2006, 10:01:52 am
It is always possible to develop sub-cultures, dialects, slangs, tongues, customs and such. It helps to feel part of community to know them.
Why not encouraging them?
To develop some kind of 1337|\|355 is not really the best thing to do in order to have a friendly welcoming community.
If the community becomes too communal or clannish there is little need to share a common server.
It is already enough to call people n00bs when they are only newcomers.

See the potential and evaluate the risks.

Don't forget that the main purpose of language to transport information from the one talking to the one listening. Trying to catch the listeners attention by hidding you message one thing. So unless you want to use cryptography in your dialogs you better use the common language.

I do it because My character honours the elven traits and the tongue. and I usually put the translation in brackets, sometimes I don't maybe because I don't have time to type it. And sometimes I forget, other times I do it with someone I know who is very IC most of the time. Else most of the times I do put it in brackets everyone seems to understand... and I have put in my description that my character may speak elvish some times, and that is up to that player to decide if his character can understand it or not.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: drah on November 03, 2006, 10:16:47 am: In most cases where I've seen Enki use their own tongue, it's typically been the odd line here and there... and most commonly.. as a greeting or a farewell.

I've also noticed that Peacer, Siofra and others often post the english translation (in brackets) along with it when there are others around who are unlikely to know that particular language being spoken. Thankfully :)

Still.. I'm going to try to remember some of the words and phrases... just so my Enki can be more Enki-like.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: miadon on November 03, 2006, 01:51:16 pm: As I mentioned earlier the months in game have their own language inserted in them, its mainly a mixture of language from our own world and in game world. This is just my observation and understanding, some of it may be wrong, some of it is right. :)

Month - prefix - equivalent - meaning\reason

Unodin - Un\o - Un - as in one - (1st month)

Byari - By - Bi - as in two - (2nd month)

Treman - Tre - Tri - as in three - (3rd month)

Kravaan - Kra - ? - something to do with krans??? :s

Quintahl - Quint - quint as in the five - (5th month)

Azhord - Az - n\a - simply to do with the harvest season and AZure sun and the symbol for this month: AZriim (a symbol of a sun) so also comes from: AZure sun.

Ylaaren - Yl - ? - something to do with yliakum?

Dwanden - Dwa - n\a - to do with dwarves, symbol for month is about forging.

Novari - Nov - Nov\n - as in nine - (9th month)

Yndoli - Yn - ? - one unit of ten - (10th month)
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Parallo on November 03, 2006, 02:22:43 pm: Quote from: miadon on November 03, 2006, 01:51:16 pm
As I mentioned earlier the months in game have their own language inserted in them, its mainly a mixture of language from our own world and in game world. This is just my observation and understanding, some of it may be wrong, some of it is right. :)

Month - prefix - equivalent - meaning\reason

Unodin - Un\o - Un - as in one - (1st month)

Byari - By - Bi - as in two - (2nd month)

Treman - Tre - Tri - as in three - (3rd month)

Kravaan - Kra - ? - something to do with krans??? :s

Quintahl - Quint - quint as in the five - (5th month)

Azhord - Az - n\a - simply to do with the harvest season and AZure sun and the symbol for this month: AZriim (a symbol of a sun) so also comes from: AZure sun.

Ylaaren - Yl - ? - something to do with yliakum?

Dwanden - Dwa - n\a - to do with dwarves, symbol for month is about forging.

Novari - Nov - Nov\n - as in nine - (9th month)

Yndoli - Yn - ? - one unit of ten - (10th month)

Wow! I didn't even notice. Nice! Good job! :thumbup:
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: zhai on November 03, 2006, 04:44:50 pm: I'm all for developing in-game languages. The phrases provided in Enkidukai tongue so far are great and although they don't allow a fluid conversation (maybe for the better), if it is still work in progress I wish to volunteer, so feel free to contact me. I'm sure the community can rise up to the challenge and help out with a little creative organization, say for example phrase or particle making, given certain guidelines. The work of volunteers could then be revised, edited and integrated and bam, a sticky is born. Same goes for other languages that can take place in-game.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Dilphemor on November 03, 2006, 05:26:57 pm: Quote from: Siofra on November 03, 2006, 12:53:30 am
I like the flavour a few words can add to a conversation. That said, however, I would find it amusing to see a group of snobby enki sitting in the Kada-El conversing quietly amongst themselves in pure Enkidukai.

/me chuckles to himself, "C'mon, there aren't ANY snobby Enki in the entire realm" :)

*edit*

Quote from: drah on November 03, 2006, 10:16:47 am
In most cases where I've seen Enki use their own tongue, it's typically been the odd line here and there... and most commonly.. as a greeting or a farewell.

I've also noticed that Peacer, Siofra and others often post the english translation (in brackets) along with it when there are others around who are unlikely to know that particular language being spoken. Thankfully :)

Still.. I'm going to try to remember some of the words and phrases... just so my Enki can be more Enki-like.

I like to use some basic phrases, such as greetings, farewells and thanks, in conversation with others. However, I prefer not to bracket the translation. I feel it's more realistic if the other character says, "I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you said." Then I apologize and translate it for them." I think this resembles a RL conversation more than it would to say something in my native tongue and immediately say the translation without some sort of indication from the listener that they didn't understand me.

I think the use of basic phrases by the various races during conversation with each other is a great thing. It's no different than the manner in which some phrases cross cultural lines IRL. I'm not Hispanic, Japanese or German, but I know several basic phrases and words in each of those languages. I learned them by talking with people of those cultures.

So it is in PS. So many races interacting in Hydlaa and Ojaveda. There is bound to be some instance of us learning bits and pieces of each other's languages. I completely agree with others that it adds to the RP experience and I enjoy it.

(http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/8857/doublepostod7.gif)
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Irri on November 03, 2006, 08:29:38 pm: Here's the lineage of our phrase collection :D

I saw Moogie's post mentioning language when I was looking to learn more about Enkidukai culture and society, and I sent them a PM. Moogie had a list of Enki phrases that Darkmoon had compiled from NPCs, and sent it to me. I have since then shared it with other Enkidukai players, and I assume they are passing it along to others...
:)

We like finding the words enough that when the new archaeologist fenki NPC turned up at the BD waterfall, one of us made a trip out there to see if she might have new words for us to discover!
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Eagel on November 04, 2006, 01:49:54 am: [IC]
Grrensholo, tabeieti!
Mo dhorreti ento dhorretolo siino tonphrren.

That's why I have to speak Yliakum language.
My mother always told us about Ancients Enkidukai and frequently spoked that dhorreth.
She always was singing some Enkidukai songs.

Ashreto-de noti venna dhorreth!
Farewell now... Bon shrdah!

[OOC]
Ok, I suppouse that "my friends" could be "tabeieti" since there's no sintactical rules. :beta:

I would like to improve the enkidukai language... and maybe write some sintactical and semantical rules
Somebody to join this project?
Or should I say... Can I start a project like this? :thumbup:

Imagine possibilities... a drunken Enki raising from his chair at Kada-El with a mug of beer in his paw, singing an enki song, and many others joining in!!
I respect that english is official language of Yliakum and must be talked by all gamers, but I think that an Enki language will improve RPing (the same for dwarf, elvish, and other races languages)
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Arka on November 04, 2006, 02:08:27 am: Do it Eagel.

I have had great fun developing the grammar around Stonebreaker and teaching it to others. If you want to take a look at what I've done so far, drop me a PM and I'll happily share ideas with you.

Arka :D
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Einnol on November 04, 2006, 04:32:30 am: I find this topic absolutely fascinating and exciting. I think in-game 'race' languages are a huge boost to RP and add a lot of depth and immersion.

As some are already aware, I have been an avid student of Arka's Stonebreaker language for about 11 months now and even chose a Pel Perrakithor name for the guild that was handed down to me. My character and I have both been learning the language at the same pace. From my character's perspective, he grew up with parents that basically sold their wares to the general public and spoke only the normal 'common tongue'. Combined with the fact that Arka's Stonebreaker was almost 'lost to history', he was never exposed to it until after meeting Arka and learning of her research. So, learning it now is his way of 'getting in touch with his roots' so to speak. Although my guild may have a Stonebreaker name, one of the main beliefs of it is that there is something worthy about all races and their cultures (including their languages). While my character is very proud of his Stonebreaker heritage (and language, of course), he is very interested and open to the cultures, beliefs and languages of other races as well (as am I as a player). We are both very interested in learning more about the Enki language that Darkmoon is working so hard to develop. Cheers to Darkmoon. \\o//

I don't see in-game languages as a way of excluding players or characters, but rather as a tool for immersing myself deeper into RP. If I use Stonebreaker, I am always willing to translate if someone does not understand. I am not sure if Peacer's OOC translation is the best way solution, tho. Although technically the player would understand, our character still may not understand what was said. I will often just state something in Stonebreaker with the translation right after (both IC). It makes sense to me that way because not only is my character reinforcing what he is learning by stating it in both languages, he is also being considerate to other characters who may not speak it or speak it well. Furthermore, I see it as a possibility that when learning a new language, you may just say something in that language without realizing it. So, along that line, I will occasionally purposely throw out a Stonebreaker phrase (usually when with others that I RP with frequently). Often this provokes a 'Pardon me?' type of response to which my character will respond with 'Oh. Sorry. <translation>.'

While everyone might not have the time, will, or ambition to learn even one race language completely, most can probably pick up on a few basic greetings such as 'Hello' and 'How are you?' fairly easily. And for those that have the desire to learn and incorporate it into their characters, they can enjoy it, share it with others and provide a translation. So, I see no harm in that.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Arka on November 04, 2006, 09:00:46 am: Has it been 11 months already?! :o

It's no wonder I never have time for anything else :)

Well said Einnol.
It's about time we opened up the Stonebreaker course more widely (11 months is probably long enough as a pilot).

On a slightly different tack I find it interesting that we are having this debate. There has always been a battle to support and preserve 'minority' languages - almost every time you find a dominant culture you find minority languages being supressed. This includes the English banning Irish and Welsh, and the americans banning French being spoken in Southern states. IMHO it's a sign of maturity when a state accepts its minority cultures and starts to acccept, support and promote minority languages. Maybe one day we will see a Stonebreaker village with street signs written in Pel Perrakithor and Shop signs in Akkaio written in Enki? Who knows? I, for one would welcome that.

Arka :D
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Nurahk on November 04, 2006, 10:28:24 am: Quote from: Peacer on November 03, 2006, 09:39:17 am
the first one to use an in game language. (I think.)

Believe that would be Elkindel(sp?) made a whole Enkidukai language...Was quite fun. Made him make one of my character's name mean "Great One"

And then somebody else also made one, though I never say her use it ingame.

I do find it interesting that made up languages are alright in public chat whereas french and german are unwelcome...but that is just crazy me ;)
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Karyuu on November 04, 2006, 10:49:30 am: Elk and I played around with Enkidukai tongues specific to our tribes. His was quite rich, and he loved to use it whenever possible :]

The difference with "made-up" languages is that they are specific to this game and to the setting, not influenced by OOC nationalities.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Eagel on November 04, 2006, 06:14:23 pm: Something its true... a common tongue to EVERYBODY is english.
Other languages like french, german, italian or spanish (in my case) are out for IC and OOC.
I agree about making a group with other spanish player's (for example) and chat in the group channel, but in main, tell, even guild channels must be english.

I think that languages in-game like Enki, Stonebreaker, elvish, etc... should be accepted not as a common tongue, but as a way to sprinkle a conversation with some words or phrases. Sometimes it's hard to me to tell or say something in english, because its not my primary language, but I try.. I use a traslation dictionary for.
I will do the same if I could improve an enki tongue... that's why I asked Darkmoon (in PM) if I can start a project like this. Take his work and continue to make some grammar rules and sent the basis for an enki language.

*Eagel takes his notebook and write some words in it*
Tresshalnolo, mo tabei... Aralost nofsa bishnahg...
Patience, my friend... all things in time
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Shooree on November 04, 2006, 08:17:45 pm: Hi

We here at the Felines Lair have been in possesion of the aforementioned phrase list for some time now. Our efforts to expand on it have been futile so far, though, due to the obvious lack of gramatical underpinning available. This new addition promises to expand our knowledge and ability to study the language further, a prospect our guild is overjoyed with.
Felines Lair will, for the time being, officially stay neutral in the debate concerning whether or not and/or how much should "other" languages be used in regular conversation. Our only goal at the time of writing this is to join forces with other devoted individuals/organizations for the purpose of establishing a workgroup that will concern itself with the study of the Enki language. Of course, all this pending Darkmoon's blessing.

It is my personal view that this community has enough talent, skill and will to develop any racial langague into an RP boon. The one thing we need is unity and a set up system. Now, Darkmoon has been working on this for quite some time now and even though the language he made cannot be considered his property anymore (not trying to be legal here, just pointing out that now that people start learning it, he cannot take it away from them, technically), I sincerely hope that he will be willing to accept input from the community. Also, it is my view that he should be the ultimate censor and have the first and final say in matters of organizing this would-be activity group.

Thank you for your time.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Eagel on November 04, 2006, 09:36:14 pm: Quote from: Shooree on November 04, 2006, 08:17:45 pm
It is my personal view that this community has enough talent, skill and will to develop any racial langague into an RP boon. The one thing we need is unity and a set up system. Now, Darkmoon has been working on this for quite some time now and even though the language he made cannot be considered his property anymore (not trying to be legal here, just pointing out that now that people start learning it, he cannot take it away from them, technically), I sincerely hope that he will be willing to accept input from the community. Also, it is my view that he should be the ultimate censor and have the first and final say in matters of organizing this would-be activity group.

I agree with that...
If Darkmoon bless our intentions, we can start building up a small workgroup open to anyone who wishes to join.
Thanks for your time, all of you, mo tabei. :D
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Shooree on November 04, 2006, 09:56:19 pm: Hm.
See, I sort of disagree with you on that one. Call me elitist (as many of my friends do) if you will, but I think it's just reasonable for the group to consist of carefully chosen members. Naturally, the one who should decide on who joins in and whether the group is formed at all is Darkmoon. I suggest a system of applications for membership to be set, by i.e. PMs with work done so far, sent to him for evaluation or whatever. Just a thought. I support this view, because I strongly believe that a big (over 5-7 people) group is able to lay uniform and believeable gramatical foundation. Afterewards, when the time comes for expanding the dictionary and whatnot, the more the merrier, I believe.
Now, I usually get accused of taking play too seriously. This just might be another case of my myopia and disregard for the "fun factor", whatever that may be.

Just my two trias.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Arka on November 04, 2006, 10:15:31 pm: Just a small contribution at this stage.

If you do form a group, use it for testing out the laguage and exposing its weaknesses. Don't try to write the language as a a group - better this is done by one or two people working very closely together - otherwise what you come up will lack integrity. Everyone will have different ideas about structure and the roots of vocabulary. If you try and create the language democratically you will end up with a mish-mush of different concepts.

Having the langauge designers answer difficult questions and correct inconsistencies is IMHO the best way forward. Hard questions will produce good results (I have Einnol to thank for that!)

That having been said, I would be happy to be involved as a tester.

Arka :D
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Shooree on November 04, 2006, 11:39:38 pm: Yes, fantastic. I fully agree. We should not strive to join Darkmoon as the creators, but offer him our services in being the guinea-erm.. cats? instead.

Felines Lair, for one, is an exclusively Enkidukai guild, and it has me as the one responsible for things scholarly. We would be more than happy to provide manpower for this task, in addtion to all the good people here.

Cheers.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Seytra on November 06, 2006, 03:32:05 am: Just be careful that these languages don't lead to separation instead of cooperation. That there are race-only guilds, that there is race-specific architecture, that there are race-dominated cities already is bad enough, and it may easily boost a separation of races that clashes violently with the settings.
I'd not want separated races, nor do I think that the original languages would still be in use today (i.e., similar to the Stonebreaker tongue mentioned). And last but not least, I'd not want to be forced to learn a language in order to play a character, as stated.

BTW, I don't think that you would accidentally be saying somethiong in a language that you are just learning. This sort of thing only happens when you have already more or less mastered the language, and have been actively using it more or less exclusively for an extended period, because otherwise you'll still be thinking in your native language, and switching takes effort, which doesn't occur accidentally, at least not for talking. It didn't ever happen to me, anyway, and I think my english is comparatively good.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Eagel on November 06, 2006, 01:24:07 pm: Soooo...
Just we need Darkmoon's blessing... :-\
I see many people interested in this project \\o//

And as Seytra says, I don't think a newcomer player must to learn an enki language to play the game. I believe that an Enkidukai language is a powerfull tool to improve ourself roleplaying. Besides, as a new player, I have to talk english which is not my country language and I do it because I like the game very much. I think it will be the same situation when a player see that he could talk 'enki' if he wants to learn...it's not an obligation.

Is there a language for a determined race?... good!
Do you want to learn?... naahh...
Ok, then your character simply could have many background histories (like don't respect tradition, or forget ancient language...)
I think an in-game language is an option to roleplay.

It's true that there will be separation (if we aren't careful)... Different thoughts and opinions...

I propose this:
* ask him and wait for Darkmoon's bless (as said by Shooree) ----[I already asked him :sweatdrop: ]
* ask him for two people who will lead the project and work on language basis (as sayd by Arka)
* test the language in the group (as sayd by Arka)
* give all material to Darkmoon's to his approval (as said by Shoree)
* maybe, when its done, publish language rules into the forum to give access to all player for this language
I repeat... enki language it is not an in-game obligation, it is an option. Also it's true that could be many variants of an enki language (like RL with english or spanish i.e.) but if we could give a basis, a big range of original language will be the same for all.
Actually, as said by Nurakh and Karyuu, everybody can made an in-game language and use it... actually english has variants in-game... there're not equals british, american or australian english but they have the same basis.

to close my point of view:
An enki language will be a huge boost to RP.
It's true that we must to respect Darkmoon's work and see him like a leader and being under his supervision.
We should try the language in a small group to test it.
I we are succeded, post a thread with the research for the community.

:surrender:Oh... Oh... It just came to my mind... It's true that if we use enki language in-game, the most 'public' words will be for salutation and a handful of simple phrases... because will be easier to express an idea in english than enki... so I don't think that will be separation...
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Kerol on November 07, 2006, 03:42:08 pm: Hi all. Decided tonight in the settings team that we move this language project onto the ps wiki.

Linky: http://pswiki.xordan.com/index.php/Main_Page#Language_Project

It would be a good start to copy&paste all the existing pieces of the languages there and discuss the details on the discussion page (dont forget to sign your comment on the discussion page with --~~~~).
We, the settings team will review the work there and are looking forward to work with you guys. :sorcerer:
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Arka on November 08, 2006, 09:14:00 am: Thanks Kerol

Noted - I have started the process of transferring the materials over to the wiki - it will take a little time, as I've accumulated a lot of language in 11 months!

Note to Stonebreaker Students - please take a look at what I am doing and ask questions in the discussion pages or edit stuff that's obviously wrong (yes I make mistakes too!)

For the moment, let's just map out what already exists - no new stuff until we are all clear about the starting point.

Thanks to the Settings team for this opportunity

Arka :D
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: DAudioLink on November 10, 2006, 08:16:51 am: :'( What about the Diaboli? They surely have their own language, right? Alcarin grew up in a village full of them, yet I've not been able to use one lick of Diaboli IG IC. Then there are my Diaboli characters... I have a question about Elven too, can we use what's already out there, at least for now, or should we wait until the PS Elven has been created?
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Kerol on November 10, 2006, 06:04:25 pm: You can make a new page/section for diaboli language and others on the wiki similar to the languages already there.
I don't see any reason to restrict the offer from the dev team to work with you guys on languages should be restricted on only one or two languages. We will see how things work out and eventually put them ingame.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Seytra on November 10, 2006, 09:00:47 pm: Quote from: DAudioLink on November 10, 2006, 08:16:51 am
I have a question about Elven too, can we use what's already out there, at least for now, or should we wait until the PS Elven has been created?
I think it would be preferrable to wait, or start on a PS elvish. On the net, there is more or less one major elvish language, Sindarin, and very few minor, yet somewhat known ones. If you would "semi-officially" start using any of those in PS, it might find too many users too fast in order to be replaced by the PS elvish once it is done. Unless PS plans to use for example Sindarin for it's elves, of course, though I'd be surprised by that.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Parallo on November 10, 2006, 09:14:19 pm: Yes there are already many people useing Peacer's elvish whatever that may be.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Darkmoon on November 11, 2006, 12:53:50 am: The whole reason behind these languages is that they are developed from our races in our game world. Sindarin was built from Tolkien's world and is part of its history and is integrated with its cultures. We might be able to borrow some concepts for the language base, but any languages in PS should be our own. With that, I can probably plan on (sometime in the future) developing some basic stuff for the various racial languages. Not all races will have their own languages outside the common tongue. This is also something that's not top priority, so it will likely be a while before anything is done or released. I do, however, appreciate the interest this has generated. :)
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Under the moon on November 11, 2006, 07:53:29 am: Ok, someone poked me about the Boli tongue, and what I would know about it. Well, as of now, nothing. But, we can let logic and the Settings dictate the path it might take.

The Boli came from a land of smoke, flame, and danger. This would lend to a certian type of speach. Due to the smoke and heat, the words would be kept as short as possible to conserve breath. Also, for this reason added to the danger factor of prowling beasts, most harsh sounds would be eliminated so as not to carry on the winds. Add into this the fact that the Boli are considered a charasmatic and aluring race. This lends to thinking that their language would be smooth and pleasant to the ears. Klingon is simply not aluring.

What that adds up to is a semi-whispered and flowing tongue using many soft 'c's (like in a whispered coo), few 's's, some light 'v's and a lot of 'l's.

However, the shouted words of the Boli would be much different. Harsh and brutal, and sounded to carry for long distances.

The Diaboli are survivors and nomads of a dark land, and their lauguage should reflect that.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Arka on November 11, 2006, 08:56:30 pm: Quote from: Darkmoon on November 11, 2006, 12:53:50 am
The whole reason behind these languages is that they are developed from our races in our game world. Sindarin was built from Tolkien's world and is part of its history and is integrated with its cultures. We might be able to borrow some concepts for the language base, but any languages in PS should be our own. With that, I can probably plan on (sometime in the future) developing some basic stuff for the various racial languages. Not all races will have their own languages outside the common tongue. This is also something that's not top priority, so it will likely be a while before anything is done or released. I do, however, appreciate the interest this has generated. :)

Excellent point Darkmoon. In developing Stonebreaker I have always made it clear that this is not a dialect of Dwarfish, but a wholly new language, devised many generations ago to enable the Stonebreakers to trade with other races without disclosing the Dwarfish language (which is secret anyway).

As for the elves, I would imagine that many would have knowledge of Sindarin as the laguage tihe High-Elves - but of course there were many races of Elf, as there were of Dwarfs (and I have a theory that Stonebreakers were split from the Petty-Dwarfs, but that is a different story) So a derivative language for the Dermorians would be completely believable. And, just as Stonebreaker reflects the environment for these Dawrfs - the sound of steel on rock, the deep rumbles and echoes of the world below ground, and Enki reflects the sounds of the open plains, the rustle of the wind in the grass, I would imagine, Dermorian would reflect the sounds of the forest; birdsong, the rustle of the leaves and the sighing of the wind in the boughs. But it would also lean towards Sindarin, as Stonebreaker leans towards Old Norse.

Just my 2trias worth....

Arka :D
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: zhai on November 12, 2006, 11:56:13 pm: In order for any language to grow, "speakers" should be competent in creating new constructions. Therefore, a certain language logic is required. Creating an extensive glossary is important but setting language rules is even more important. Those behind in-game languages like Arka and Darkmoon may already have all this in mind, I really know little of how advanced these projects are beyond what's been stated in this thread, but just in case, you may find these questions useful:

How does the language specifies inflections of gender and number?
In English, for example, the particles "-s", "-es" and "-ies" are used on nouns for the regular plural form, and the suffixes like "-ess" to specify gender. Adjectives and verbs do not suffer any change in either case. In Spanish, every word suffers some sort of change regarding gender and number: verbs, nouns, adjectives, and so on. So, how does this work with the Stonebreaker and Enkidukai tongues? I can use the word "tabei" for 1 friend. Is it "tabeis" for 2 or more? Same with the adjective "kera" (dear) in Stonebreaker. I can say "Kera Indygo", can I say "Kera Indygo and Einnol" or "Kera Zorbels" (with no distinction of number and gender)? The word "urpnam" means warrior in Stonebreaker. What's the plural form? "Urpnams"? Stating these rules of inflection will allow players to use the language in a more flexible way.

How does the language conjugate verbs?
Maybe we don't need to specify all grammar tenses. That would be a LOT of work. However, how verbs work for the imperative form (used to give commands such as "(you)Shut up" or "Let's go") may come in handy. This could be very simple if we already have a list of verbs.

How do syntax and word formation work?
English is a language of word order. In plain, that means that the word that preceeds another modifies it. So, if we want to refer to a sword that is heavy we say "heavy sword". It's a very simple way to interconnect words and meanings. This can be used to combine particles of the language. For instance:

bonnhetolo - good for you
phonweh - place
bonnphonweh - good place?
The same can be applied for word formation. For example, using the word "urpnam" again and the particles (which I just made up for this particular example) "hrjun" for "group" and "Virr" for "leader":

urpnam - warrior
hrjunurpnam - army?
urpnamvirr - war lord?
Again, these are just some suggestions. If we know how the languages work, a glossary will allow new combinations and player can use their own competence to use them and understand them.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Eagel on November 13, 2006, 12:16:40 am: Thank you Zhai for your comments, enkien has now a little introduction (alphabet, numbers) and it's open to discussion.
Want to colaborate? :thumbup: visit PS Wiki (http://pswiki.xordan.com/index.php/Main_Page#Language_Project) page and make your adds.

I'm working right now in verb tenses... just past, present and future for now... and again, it's open to discussions ;)

*EDIT*
I saw Laris work... and it's really really good... His works have sense...
I apologize here (I do it by PM also) because I never saw his work... I never ever want to destroy any's work.
Please, feel free to modify all wrong material in the wiki :thumbup:
*EDIT*
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Shooree on November 13, 2006, 03:07:04 am: Yes, indeed, Zhai. That is exactly what I was reffering to when I said that Darkmoon should lead this effort in every sense. I, of course, hoped that he will be able to answer all those crucial grammatical questions, because the issue of vocalbulary developement is comparatively easy and I find it more plausible that that part can be done as a communal effort. The rules that should guide the language, though, are best left to the creator himself though, I believe. This is not to say that any interested parties should refrain from contributing in that sense as well. It's just that I really would like to see, as well as hear, consistency. I hope you all catch my drift. With that being said, I'm off to examine the few Slavic languages I speak and their grammar... there's a few niceties there, that might just fit in. Cheers and good luck to all involved!

*EDIT* http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26335.0 <---- the guy kickstarted the thing, but in a different subforum. If Darkmoon doesn't mind, wemight start from there? *EDIT*
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Einnol on November 13, 2006, 03:54:56 am: @Zhai: Very good points that you have brought up. In the case of Pel Perrakithor (Stonebreaker), I believe the answers to all of your questions already have answers. Most of those answers can already be found here (http://pswiki.xordan.com/index.php/Stonebreaker_language). I'll let Arka handle any more detailed answers. ;D
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Arka on November 13, 2006, 01:35:20 pm: Thanks Zhai

Well observed; here are some answers for you:

Quote from: zhai on November 12, 2006, 11:56:13 pm
In order for any language to grow, "speakers" should be competent in creating new constructions. Therefore, a certain language logic is required. Creating an extensive glossary is important but setting language rules is even more important. Those behind in-game languages like Arka and Darkmoon may already have all this in mind, I really know little of how advanced these projects are beyond what's been stated in this thread, but just in case, you may find these questions useful:

I agree. Stonebreaker is very extensible - there is a clear structure that links nouns and verbs and makes it very easy for anyone to add words or develop new words by combining existing ones. I built this in from the beginning, knowing that others might want to contribute (and Einnol already has)

Quote from: zhai on November 12, 2006, 11:56:13 pm
How does the language specifies inflections of gender and number?
In English, for example, the particles "-s", "-es" and "-ies" are used on nouns for the regular plural form, and the suffixes like "-ess" to specify gender. Adjectives and verbs do not suffer any change in either case. In Spanish, every word suffers some sort of change regarding gender and number: verbs, nouns, adjectives, and so on. So, how does this work with the Stonebreaker and Enkidukai tongues? I can use the word "tabei" for 1 friend. Is it "tabeis" for 2 or more? Same with the adjective "kera" (dear) in Stonebreaker. I can say "Kera Indygo", can I say "Kera Indygo and Einnol" or "Kera Zorbels" (with no distinction of number and gender)? The word "urpnam" means warrior in Stonebreaker. What's the plural form? "Urpnams"? Stating these rules of inflection will allow players to use the language in a more flexible way.

Plurals in Stonebreaker are usually formed by adding 'th' or '-eth' as a word ending, depending on the existing word ending. 'Urpnam' is derived from the verb 'urpna' (to fight) which, in turn is based on 'Urpem' (warfare). The plural of urpnam is 'urpnameth' as the -am eding takes -eth in the plural ('urpnamth' is too clumsy to pronounce).

Gender is hardly expressed in Stonebreaker. It is rumoured that dwarfs are a little 'hazy' about gender (at least if you believe Trerry Pratchett). It has been said that the main difference is that the females occasionally shave, while the males do not! So no gender types except for a few words: Pekart (boy) and Pekarta (girl); Arka (beautiful) and Arkumin (handsome). Other adjectives do not need to agree in either gender nor number. They are paired with the following noun (and are often joined to the noun they qualify)

Quote from: zhai on November 12, 2006, 11:56:13 pm
How does the language conjugate verbs?
Maybe we don't need to specify all grammar tenses. That would be a LOT of work. However, how verbs work for the imperative form (used to give commands such as "(you)Shut up" or "Let's go") may come in handy. This could be very simple if we already have a list of verbs.

All that has been done in Stonebreaker (and yes, it was a lot of work :) )

Quote from: zhai on November 12, 2006, 11:56:13 pm
How do syntax and word formation work?
English is a language of word order. In plain, that means that the word that preceeds another modifies it. So, if we want to refer to a sword that is heavy we say "heavy sword". It's a very simple way to interconnect words and meanings. This can be used to combine particles of the language. For instance:

bonnhetolo - good for you
phonweh - place
bonnphonweh - good place?
The same can be applied for word formation. For example, using the word "urpnam" again and the particles (which I just made up for this particular example) "hrjun" for "group" and "Virr" for "leader":

urpnam - warrior
hrjunurpnam - army?
urpnamvirr - war lord?

This is exactly the way I see it working.

Quote from: zhai on November 12, 2006, 11:56:13 pm
Again, these are just some suggestions. If we know how the languages work, a glossary will allow new combinations and player can use their own competence to use them and understand them.

Very insightful, very useful, You will make a good tester for the language.

Arka :D
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: themule on November 15, 2006, 08:35:54 pm: Languages are cool, but they do have big drawbacks.

If many Enkis start using common phrases in their own language, my character will soon learn them, and very likely will start using then when addressing other Enkis.

While it may sound cool and nice in a RP way to have a Kran say 'Pardon me' when some Enki says something he doesn't understand, the other way around is neither cool nor nice, and actually breaks RP.

My char can enter Ojaveda and start calling other people 'Tabei' but what if they don't understand? It makes no sense. This means that in order to play a Enkindukai just decently, you have to learn the language.

Unless you place some (weird) restriction such as 'only Enkindukais may use the Enki language'. It makes really no sense to have a Kran who speaks the Enkis' native language while most of then don't.

I don't see any problem in putting one Enki word here and there when chatting, just like NPCs do

But I've just learned today that 'Tabei' means 'friend'. I thought it meant 'stranger', which is closer to the Enki race psicology (everybody addressed me like that the first time i was in Ojaveda... 'How can I help you, Stranger' sound way more appropriate for Enkis than 'How can I help you, Friend').

Just my two trias.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Parallo on November 15, 2006, 09:22:31 pm: Anyone can speak any language in RL. Why not in PS? I'm Irish and I don't know much Irish. My girl friends English and she knows more Irish than me.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Dilphemor on November 15, 2006, 10:26:32 pm: Quote from: themule on November 15, 2006, 08:35:54 pm
I don't see any problem in putting one Enki word here and there when chatting, just like NPCs do

But I've just learned today that 'Tabei' means 'friend'. I thought it meant 'stranger', which is closer to the Enki race psicology (everybody addressed me like that the first time i was in Ojaveda... 'How can I help you, Stranger' sound way more appropriate for Enkis than 'How can I help you, Friend').

Just my two trias.

Actually, you have to remember that is coming from the merchants who want your business. They have a motive in calling you "Friend" rather than "Stranger". This is a common practice in many cultures. I have had it happen to me in shops in Korea and The Philippines. A merchant who wants to do business with you is going to want you to feel like you are his friend.

Now if I, as a player character, were to call you "Tabei" the first time I've seen you, that would be odd. Unless I'm just overly friendly. More than likely, I would use the proper friendly greeting for a stranger, which is "Grrensholo, Taajho". Just in case you didn't know, Taajho means stranger.

Personally, I like the idea of the languages adding a richness to the RP experience. I think that players just have to use some sense when interacting with others. If you use a basic phrase and someone doesn't understand, then stop using the language and revert to the common tongue. I've found that it actually sparks interest in others who ask if I can teach them some more.

I also like the idea of characters of various races learning some basic phrases. That also happens when you visit a foreign country. When I lived in Germany, I learned some basic German. But I was FAR, FAR, FAR from being fluent. So my German friends, while appreciating my effort to learn their language, would speak to me primarily in English.

I don't really think it's all that odd that a Kran who is frequently in Ojaveda might encounter an Enki who doesn't speak Enkien. Think about it, perhaps the Enki you encounter isn't from Ojaveda. Maybe they live in another land and they're just newly arrived in Ojaveda. Not everyone of a particular race or nationality speaks the language of that race. My family is of German descent, yet I knew no German before I lived in Germany and still don't know much of it.

I don't think it really breaks RP that much. Just RP it as you would act IRL in a similar situation. Does that make sense?
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Nikodemus on November 15, 2006, 10:50:53 pm: Quote from: themule on November 15, 2006, 08:35:54 pm
My char can enter Ojaveda and start calling other people 'Tabei' but what if they don't understand? It makes no sense. This means that in order to play a Enkindukai just decently, you have to learn the language.

But I've just learned today that 'Tabei' means 'friend'. I thought it meant 'stranger', which is closer to the Enki race psicology (everybody addressed me like that the first time i was in Ojaveda... 'How can I help you, Stranger' sound way more appropriate for Enkis than 'How can I help you, Friend').
With different languages, in this case also cultures, simple logical translation word to word isn't going to work.
Nikodemus is enkidukai
Maybe i got completly wrong feeling, but there is noone who is not enkidukai and who would call me Tabei. This make me think that it is not because only enkidukais know that word, but because enkidukais use it only when talking with themselves.
Concluding: maybe i would feel bad about non-enkidukai who call me Tabei. I mean, other enkidukais, even if stragers have the right, others don't.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Dilphemor on November 15, 2006, 11:22:41 pm: Quote from: Nikodemus on November 15, 2006, 10:50:53 pm
This make me think that it is not because only enkidukais know that word, but because enkidukais use it only when talking with themselves.
Concluding: maybe i would feel bad about non-enkidukai who call me Tabei. I mean, other enkidukais, even if stragers have the right, others don't.

That's not entirely accurate either. Jirosh calls everyone "Tabei" does he not?

Someone who's not an Enki, please confirm or correct what I'm saying. Thanks.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Arka on November 15, 2006, 11:30:22 pm: Indeed he does, mo tabei ;)

(or should that be Amart or't?)

Arka
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Shooree on November 15, 2006, 11:51:40 pm: bleh. I visit this thread alone at least three times a day, because I took serious interest in helping the kind people that have started the language development projects. I hope to see substance and my heart starts racing each time I see a new post. But this has came down to (no offence meant) just random people spilling their raw thoughts on the subject of foreign languages in a game, without anything new being said for the last 4 days or so. Why do you post if all you're going to do is rephrase the first critique? This is a natural thing on a big forum like General Discussion, I guess. To whom it may concern, though, there is a separate thread in the Roleplaying forum, dealing with the actual work on Enkien. Do stop by if you have anything meaningful to add. The PSwiki is the repository of it all, of course, both Enkien and Stonebreaker.

Hm... I don't really know my motive for being so spitefull. I'm usually not like this. I apologise, but I guess this means a lot to me and I'd like more people to actually try and do something instead of saying "IG languages are great, but I think..." and state the same reasons for the 5th time.
Once again sory for the rant. I didn't mean to offend anyone. :innocent:
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Kerol on November 16, 2006, 12:19:10 am: I think this
Quote
when some Enki says something he doesn't understand, the other way around is neither cool nor nice, and actually breaks RP.
actually is a problem.
You can't really RP to know the language unless you actually know the language - well, you can try, but it wont work out without a huge effort to not break realism with too many OOC interruptions.

This brings me to the conclusion that with the introduction of ingame languages the policy should be changed like following:

All chat in public channels should generally either be in English or, if it is in any other language than English (whether real or one of the official artificial languages conceived especially for PlaneShift like Enkien), a direct translation should be provided subsequently.

I think this is a good general solution that also would solve the steady "why the hell cant i talk [put any language here]?!?!" with the answer - You can, but you have to provide a direct translation to english.

Quote
[...]without anything new being said for the last 4 days or so.
I suppose this isn't quite the "news" Shooree anticipated, but still ;)
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Shooree on November 16, 2006, 12:43:58 am: heh... to be honest, I saw your nick, Kerol, and was somewhat prepared for what follows. On the constructive side (see? I do have a reason for posting, afterall), I guess that the rule you just proposed should be accepted for the time being unconditionally. Once the two languages have evolved a little, further thought might be required, but for this phase, I thinks your solution is in the best interests of all parties.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: themule on November 16, 2006, 01:29:23 am: Well I'm not against it, I just pointed out some drawbacks. My char would for sure learn how to greet people in Enkien and use it while in Ojaveda (he spends a lot of time there). Just it should be used with great care... when I'm talking to someone i know, and know he can speak Enken, i can dare to use it more. But when dealing to unknow people (i mostly mean players here) i would reduce it to the bare minimum. The first command a newbie enki would learn if he/she can't understand a word of what's happening around is /quit.
It's hard enough to start knowing nothing, let's keep language barriers to a minimum.

After you set some context (and everyone involved knows it), you may start heavier use of languages.

As for 'Tabei', Enkis are known not to trust strangers much. That would be true for merchants too.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Shooree on November 16, 2006, 02:47:01 am: be honest, now. have you spent more than a minute even -looking- at my, and other people's previous posts, let alone reading them and contemplating? At least the one where I whine about people posting when it's absolutely, painfuly, horrendously, irritatingly obvious that... gah! Why do I bother?!

please... pretty please... post when you have something to say, at least in constructive topics such as this. And by "having something to say", I absolutely DO NOT consider the first thing that associates itself in your mind when you read 4 similar posts. Mainly because that association is more than likely to be less than derivative. Let's keep the ball rolling, eh?

Cheers
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Under the moon on November 16, 2006, 04:18:54 am: Hush now.

If it was up to me, which it is not, I would not waste so much time actually learning the languages that will never be useful outside of the game (and not very useful ingame either, to tell you the truth). Instead, I would create a 'feature' of the filter to automatically convert your speech into the tongue you are speaking by use of a command.

Example:

/Diaboli How are you today, my friend?

Someone who knows The Boli tongue will see:

<player> says in Diaboli: How are you today, my friend?

Someone who does not will see:

<player> says in Diaboli: Wen uah resha fannala, rasha hei?

Or, possibly no words at all, so that the -player- will not be able to understand if the character does not.

<player> says six words in Diaboli you do not understand.

It is possible that you would know part of the language in question (based on time spent reading, or being taught by a teacher) so as to sound like this:

"How *uah you *fannala, my friend?"

The reason behind this is that our -characters- would know (or not know) the languages whether we do or not. This calls for game mechanics, rather than RP.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Shooree on November 16, 2006, 05:39:59 am: <sheepish> you have a point there, Master Moon. That solution would be the best and most useful by far. Its implementation would possibly be one of the most revolutionary steps that this game has ever made. It would distingusih it even further in the sea of mmorpgs. I love it and support you with all my heart, I really do. But it has nothing to do with this. Almost nothing.</shepish>

This is fun. I might go that far as to say that it's similar to l'artpourl'artism. A few people with nothing better to do late at night that fantasize and put their linguistic hats on. And if we get a kick out of doing it, then hey. But your proposal rocks.

thank you for being a bright example of constructive criticism and forum etiquecy once again, as well.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Dilphemor on November 16, 2006, 06:12:30 pm: Quote from: Kerol on November 16, 2006, 12:19:10 am

This brings me to the conclusion that with the introduction of ingame languages the policy should be changed like following:

All chat in public channels should generally either be in English or, if it is in any other language than English (whether real or one of the official artificial languages conceived especially for PlaneShift like Enkien), a direct translation should be provided subsequently.

I think this is a good general solution that also would solve the steady "why the hell cant i talk [put any language here]?!?!" with the answer - You can, but you have to provide a direct translation to english.

Actually, I think that would kill it. I would quickly grow weary of saying the same thing twice every time I say something. I would just drop the freakin' Enkien and speak English. I think it can be RP'ed like any RL conversation between two individuals who don't speak the same language. They manage to get through it in RL, so why not in RP?
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: themule on November 19, 2006, 03:22:43 pm: Quote from: Under the moon on November 16, 2006, 04:18:54 am
I would create a 'feature' of the filter to automatically convert your speech into the tongue you are speaking by use of a command.

Unless you want a real translator, it is possibile to have engine support for languages.

That's the way some LPMUDs implement the 'language' skill. Instead of use the 'say' command there's 'rsay' which lets you specify the language (r for race). Since there's only one skill, you can't really learn a single language. When you hear some words not in your race language, either you get a message "xxx says something..." or you do get the words, but mangled with random chars (I feature I presonally don't like, but it's quite effective since sometime you can make something out of it, sometimes you don't get a single word). At higher skill levels, mangling is reduced and you can understand almost everything.

A different LPMUD I've played had extensive language support with one skill for each language, and training sessions based on listening. In order to learn a language, you either had to listen to other players (speaking natively) or ask a NPC to tell you some stories using that language. The process was very time consuming.

On PS, with each skill split into theory and practice, you could learn a language the usual way (PP+money) and practice just by using it.

Again, this has nothing to do with developing a whole, real, language.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Kerol on November 19, 2006, 06:25:22 pm: Think I should contribute something here before Shoo freaks out ;)

I think we first should concentrate on syntax in each language.
As I see Klyros as some sort of weird reptile bird thingy, I think a language is appropriate that uses a sequence of short words (see this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytic_language)).
As a consequence, words of the Klyros language may be simple phonems, without many synthetic constructions (like e = with; a = not; a e = without).
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: miadon on November 19, 2006, 06:32:04 pm: also possibly have an "ssss" type sound to it too :)
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: Shooree on November 20, 2006, 04:18:16 am: dontcha worry, dear Kerol, that was just a bad day... and anywas Master Moon has a very effective way of making me shut up. For good. For better or worse.
Title: Re: In game languages
Post by: LigH on March 16, 2007, 11:02:57 pm: I'm looking for a suitable female form of a leader, like "queen". Could that be

ylol + ~yba => ylolyba ?