PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Volund on February 10, 2007, 12:33:51 am
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The new type of combat put into the game is horrible, its more of a bane to dueling than the lag in my opinion, you have to face the enemy, the attacks dont stop and timing is all off, I would like to have it put back the old way I know that many others would want it back the old way
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I like the fact that you actually have to face the opponent in order to hit them. It looked so stupid when people would strike the wall and the enemy would get hurt...
As for "the attacks don't stop and the timing is all off"... I'm not quite sure what you're talking about...
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the fact that you have to face your opponent means no sneak attacks, the duel would be a joust, I get EVEN MORE LAG with this new system
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Agreed, now it seems magic is the best way to kill in duels thanks to the new combat system, and that can lead to crashing. So it would cause only more irritation but hey, the rest of the new updates are pretty nice, just haven't found how to make maps yet that's my main irritation since "I don't duel all that often" ;D yea that's a fantasy, lol
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It's like the PVP duelling now uses a similar or identical repeat-attack-mechanism to that used when killing mobs... this means you can't do a timed-attack... pause, evaluate and initiate another timed-attack easily.
If you haven't done much PVP duelling, no disrespect.. but I wouldn't expect you to understand!!
Sure the game mechanics looked like you were slashing forward when you attacked people behind you (or to the side)... but "imagine" or "roleplay" that the attack was a slash behind... or a slash to the side of the player and all is fine.
Right now.. you effectively can't slash behind or to the side of you. --- I could understand this for killing mobs.. but in duels it's become essential... unless they change the game mech. to allow you to turn around as quick as you can in real life!!
More importantly though.. the overall duelling technique requires you to start an attack... and then stop the repeated attacking before you can do a properly timed attack again... I think (though I could be wrong)... that this auto-attack / timing thing may be what most people object to and should be considered the more MAJOR issue with the changes.
If anyone else thinks otherwise, please feel free to correct me... I'm just going off how I feel about the PVP system.
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the fact that you have to face your opponent means no sneak attacks, the duel would be a joust, I get EVEN MORE LAG with this new system
What do you mean 'no sneak attacks'? Only the attacker has to face the target, the target could have their back to them...
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i gues i ave to trust you on this guys, that dueling became even worse, although i won't say it until i try ;P
Volund, you need to be more descriptive. For now, reading what write, makes me think that your are just annoyed that the abuse of the system was eliminated, what's just silly to complain about.
EDIT: Drah, you mean that attacked makes a step forward to be in the range, the timer stars ticking and, before you are about to hit, the defender makes step back or forward, and you are eighter too far, or you are not faced to your enemy ;) that pretty much sux indeed ;P
And yeah, working mouslook, where you can turn fast and actual strafing (currently it is so slow, that looks more like a joke, please, no offence) would be good, i say it since CB came out.
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Okay.. I'll try to explain clearly:
Pressing "4" initiates an attack.
When using swords, there's approximately a 2 second delay from pressing "4" to actually slashing at your opponent.
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In PS 0.3.017
You would evaluate your opponents distance... press "4" and try to time it so you ran into them at the time of slashing.
You would then be free to evaluate distance... press "4" again.. and time another attack.
In PS 0.3.018
You evaluate your opponents distance... press "4" and try to time it so you run into them at the time of slashing.
Then... every 2 seconds... your client will repeatedly try to attack again... which throws the timing off (and makes it so your character is effectively slashing repeatedly... though this isn't reflected in what you see in-game)
You then have to press "5" to stop the attack... then you can evaluate distance, etc. again and press "4" to do a timed-attack again.
However, this means that every time you fail on timing.. or your opponents LA skill allows them to dodge/block the attack.. you have to press "5" again to stop the inaccurate repeated-attacks... if you want to be allowed to do an accurately timed attack again.
This really complicates PVP.
Although it was buggy before... it was a good model for pvp-duels and the timing was really the core of what made duels in PS so good...
Now though... I don't know... it's either not such a good-model... or it is going to take some getting used to!!
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oh, so even though the new system was supposed to stop hit and run attacks, you still can use the tehnique, but only the first time, because then you have to cancel the attack manylly each time, before you are going to evaluate the proper timing, so that you can hit in the moement while in range.
I'm sorry to say people, but you are abusing the game by using hit and run attacks and you can't complain that now it became more annoying.
I used that tehnique too, because who wouldn't if you want to win a duel. The thing is that oce people are doing something better than you are, you have to learn this and do do the same. Abusing game or not, you have to. So, now it will be even more annoying, but there is nothing to complain about people.
As combat got semi fixed, now we have to wait till the process will be finished. So go ahead, give ideas, but forget about hit and run attacks, in this form it was for so long.
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http://planeshift.cvs.sourceforge.net/*checkout*/planeshift/planeshift/docs/history.txt (http://planeshift.cvs.sourceforge.net/*checkout*/planeshift/planeshift/docs/history.txt)
*** 2007-02-05 by Keith Fulton
- Made several small but important revisions to combat.
a. Now if you go out of range, you don't lose combat mode. This will prevent players
from jumping in and out of range to kite npcs and duel in unfun ways.
b. Now if you are hit by an attack, you are not interrupted if you are casting spells
or crafting, etc. You will only auto-target if you are at PEACE mode, doing nothing.
c. We now also do angle of attack checking on each hit. You must be roughly facing
the mob in order to hit it now.
:)
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sneak attacks as In while the opponent runs you time your attacks and hit them from the side, that is a sneak attack. With this new way its a joust
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Fighting should be about character skill, not player skill. That's pretty much what this combat system is trying to accomplish.
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The new type of combat put into the game is horrible, its more of a bane to dueling than the lag in my opinion, you have to face the enemy, the attacks dont stop and timing is all off, I would like to have it put back the old way I know that many others would want it back the old way
I have to agree with you, the new combat system is horrible. A huge setback, in my opinion.
Dueling in PS was nothing less than an adrenaline rush.
It was one of those things that made PS special and a class above other games.
With the new combat system, its much more difficult to carry out a hit and run strategy and nearly impossible to protect from a "sneak from behind" attack. The new system's apparent goal seems to be the anhiliation of mobile dueling based on timing and the weapons + skills involved. As if thats not enough, the attack radius has been reduced which further disrupts the timing of various weapons and their corresponding speeds. The end result is that network lag has an increased effect on combat and renders dueling virtually impossible.
I can see myself adjusting to the stance staying active (one can always /stopattack to reset) but the same can't be said of the other changes.
I can't understand why one of the best parts of PS needs to suffer through so many changes simultaneously.
I have yet to find any dueling participants with a thumbs up for the new combat system.
Drah's post explains perfectly the specific issue involved. Thanks, Drah.
/quote
...the timing was really the core of what made duels in PS so good...
/unquote
Eila
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neko, that was so constructive... especially that we have just found out that point a) isn't fully valid and you didn't even comment it. pfff...
Volund, it is hard to understand you, but i think i get what you mean. This would be possible if the mouslook would be working, of course you would still have to be faced to the enemy, so you would have to keep turning. But the fact you don't kill things all the time while turned back to them, is much better, than that now you can't attack, while having enemy at your side. Besides such attacks don't really happen often in real fight, and you always try to face your enemy, because this guarante you the longest attacks, while being ready for the contrattacks.
EDIT, ella, did you ever read what i wrote?^^ I see no single comment, so what you did is stepped in, complained a bit, made some mess and went away. Yeah, but whatever, mayb i just stop carring too.
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IT IS HARD TO TIME ATTACKS
go ahead and copy that and mess with it, MANY people want the old way back, go to DR and duel check it out, PLAYER skill should dominate, this game is not about powerleveling and if character level dominates dueling then powerleveling is what people would do POWERLEVEL only, I likedi t when you timed and thought out your attack
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Fighting should be about character skill, not player skill. That's pretty much what this combat system is trying to accomplish.
Thats incorrect and wrong, in my opinion. Combat should not be the equivalent of 2 static entities facing each other on some hex map with only character skills as the determining factor. Player skill is much more difficult to achieve than character skills. Player skill relies on talent and hard-earned experience gathered by the player. Thats why a system involving different races works.
Experience should be emphasized and encouraged, certainly not hampered, disabled or ruled-out.
Eila
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I really think the devs dont like our type of dueling, guerilla is my way hit and run is pretty much everyones way of dueling, it really helps create a good experience
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Regardless of "mechanics" and regardless of duelling styles. It is a fact of combat that in a life and death combat, both parties will hit however they may. Individuals who practice hitting only what is in front of their face will die. All self defense teaches the person to not only be aware of their surroundings but means to defend yourself, and to counter attack regardless of the direction of the original attack. I completely and fully disagree with the new "combat style" which is not combat but target practice.
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I'm downloading v.18 as I type this post. I understand the new mechanics of combat and I don't think I will be dueling quite as much as I used to (if my client works at all) but then there are many things about combat that need tweaking and it's good to hear the team is taking action. Now, about that, Neko's quote caught my attention:
*** 2007-02-05 by Keith Fulton
- Made several small but important revisions to combat.
a. Now if you go out of range, you don't lose combat mode. This will prevent players
from jumping in and out of range to kite npcs and duel in unfun ways(...).
Obviously, not that small but then that depends on how you see PvP and how important it is for you. Is it for PLers? for PKers? for everyone? Do people in charge of the development of PvP think changing completely how you fight is actually a "small" thing?
Last time I played (back with v.16), jumping when hitting the attack button prevented falling through the floor and getting killed by the world. That was one of many bugs we had to deal with in combat. It was kinda tricky to get a hold of but I wouldn't call it unfun. In fact, I found it quite enjoyable once I got used to it. If there was anything unfun about dueling then was actually falling through the floor or getting teleported or pushed back as you tried to move (or simply being a victim of any of the combat bugs).
But, despite the fun many may have had dueling with good old slash and dash and our interest in having it back and as bugless as possible, it seems that the devs are still trying to find a system that they find best. We have to remember that it is still work in progress and things are tried, changed and, sometimes, messed up. Part of the process is evaluation and making the the necessary changes so the final outcome is enjoyable for all.
Remember when you had to call NPCs by their name to start a conversation with them? Well, that one didn't work so smoothly but it was worth trying. I say be patient and try to post your opinions constructively. I think the devs appreciate an honest opinion but remember that we are in no position to demand anything from anyone as if we were complaining about something we bought and now wish to return.
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Fighting should be about character skill, not player skill. That's pretty much what this combat system is trying to accomplish.
Nurahk, this sounds okay in theory, but currently a person moderately trained in Sword and carrying a nice weapon can kill a character maxed in everything in one hit, and it makes a duel pretty much a coin toss: The person who hits first, wins. Not fun at all.
The way dueling was prior to 3.018, some skill was involved beyond blind luck and training. Luck and training were still factors, but not the only factor.
-Roahn
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I don't think this new system is the reason why player skill or character training has so little to do with winning a duel. It just makes it more noticeable.
Luck, skill and speed used to be somewhat balanced before weapon quality was introduced. When that happened, weapons turned from Q=10/10 to Q=50/50 and all damage output raised considerably. This made any half-trained, well-equiped char lethal. So, if your character was a skilled fighter or even a master in combat, it didn't really mean anything. So, in a duel, about a 50% chance to win depended on luck, while the other 50% depended on speed and skill (25-25, 20-30, or something like that). But at least with the other system we still had a chance to win skillfully.
Now, it seems we don't have that chance. Combat needs tweaking but I wouldn't look past other issues like weapon quality and speed, damage output and combat skill/training.
So much work! And I'm still downloading... hopefully I'll be able to test this new system soon.
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So much work! And I'm still downloading... hopefully I'll be able to test this new system soon.
I hope it works for you too, Zhai. I miss you! Come back!
-Roahn
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Timed Attacks / Hit and Run Attacks = Cheating, Cheesy, and Cheap.
I'm glad they're finally gone! Things will be fairer now. No more treating the game like an arcade game. No more abuse of the game mechanics in duels.
Impossible to protect yourself from being attacked from behind? That's great! It's called a backstab!
Anhiliation of mobile dueling? Excellent! I've been asking for this for a while!
The only reason you should run while in a duel is if you're running away from the fight, in which case you should LOSE. However, people have been exploiting the fact that the duel carries on. If you want an arcade game, go play Soldier of Fortune II and find a knives-only server.
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Fighting should be about character skill, not player skill. That's pretty much what this combat system is trying to accomplish.
This is entirely correct. A new player should not have to learn some obscure method of jumping in and out of combat and 'timing' their attacks to fairly duel with other players. All the old system did was to give people with a working knowledge of the attack system an advantage over other people. PS combat is about simulating what would happen to the characters. There should be little need for excessive player skill. If thats what you want, go play a FPS, honestly.
Additionally the new changes will improve the NPC behavior so that players can not do this to NPC's and kill them without them landing a blow on the player. For that reason that feature I imagine will definitely not be taken out no matter how much it messes with PvP, unless a way to keep the old system (which is unlikely to be wanted as I said above) while fixing the npc problem. And personally, this is just me, but I don't see that likely to happen ;)
It's unfortunate if you came accustomed to and found fun the old system, because that's not how it was meant to be.
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Timed Attacks / Hit and Run Attacks = Cheating, Cheesy, and Cheap.
I'm glad they're finally gone! Things will be fairer now. No more treating the game like an arcade game. No more abuse of the game mechanics in duels.
Impossible to protect yourself from being attacked from behind? That's great! It's called a backstab!
Anhiliation of mobile dueling? Excellent! I've been asking for this for a while!
The only reason you should run while in a duel is if you're running away from the fight, in which case you should LOSE. However, people have been exploiting the fact that the duel carries on. If you want an arcade game, go play Soldier of Fortune II and find a knives-only server.
Have you even tried the new system?
To put it in one sentence, it's now purely luck and there is absolutely no skill involved, it's just push a button and hope you win.
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Have you even tried the new system?
Yes, and I like it.
To put it in one sentence, it's now purely luck and there is absolutely no skill involved, it's just push a button and hope you win.
Sounds perfect.:) http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=23232.0
Once different strategies are added to the game, including bonuses against certain types of armour by certain types of weapons, things will get slightly more complicated.
Planeshift is a roleplaying game, not an arcade game. Even as an arcade game, duelling relied heavily on things like bugs and lag. Hit and run attacks used to be illegal, and then the devs gave up trying to enforce it because too many people were doing it. I'm happy with the changes.
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Well some people like to PvP, I see nothing wrong with that. I'm big on RP and PvP and if everyone frowns on PvP in general I suggest removing duelling altogether and levels/stats. It seems the only people happy with the system are people who don't duel in general.
In the new system you autostance correct? Wouldn't that mean a dagger users chances have also been dramatically improved due to it's timing?
Why the only attacking from the front system? Is there back invincible to a dagger/sword/axe? I think not.
And for people who say "go to another game". Why? Can't someone like RP and PvP?
Does the fact they duel make them frowned upon?
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RP and PVP don't have to be two different entities.
You can attack someone's back. You just have to be facing it. You can't attack something when you're facing the opposite direction from it.
Autostance is set to full defensive. In full defensive you deal no damage. Dagger speed doesn't help.
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Well some people like to PvP, I see nothing wrong with that.
I love player killing as well. I have over 95 duel points on my main character. (65, really, because I lost 30 due to a bug.) My main character is hated by some as a serial killer. So I definately have a fondness for PvP.
Why the only attacking from the front system? Is there back invincible to a dagger/sword/axe? I think not.
I thought that you can backstab someone, you just can't hit someone who's standing behind you?
Does the fact they duel make them frowned upon?
It's the way you duel which is the problem.
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And for people who say "go to another game". Why? Can't someone like RP and PvP?
Does the fact they duel make them frowned upon?
You can RP and PvP, but you have to accept that 'PvP' is going to be defined as how the development team wants it. If you want RP and PvP that depends heavily on player skill and obscure knowledge, I suggest you'd best find another game rather than waste your time trying to convince the team to change it to how you want it.
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Autostance is set to full defensive. In full defensive you deal no damage. Dagger speed doesn't help
I killed someone several times today with autostance.
So you have to /stopattack to stop the autostance then try your stance again?
If so then it's not as bad as I thought but it was very much luck, a pure 50/50 even if your 30 levels behind. At the moment there's really no need to train to a very high level in your weapon.
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I killed someone several times today with autostance.
I could be wrong then. I was under the information (from what I read around here) that when a character is attacked by an enemy, they automatically go into full defense stance. The devs had changed this from going into a normal stance, to prevent people from abusing the rats in the sewers (or any mob really) aggressiveness to get free PP without them actually being there at the computer.
Maybe this is different when the enemy is another player character as opposed to a npc mob.
Sounds like something someone can go and test. :)
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Add me to the list of displeased duelists. While the correction of some of the movement bugs is most welcome(and appreciated!), the overall changes greatly detract from what was one of the strengths of planeshift, which is moving combat capabilities.
Everything is still possible on the move, but requires absolutely pinpoint timing now, which will make it that much harder for new players to learn the art. I hope that the old attack mechanics are restored.
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Hmm. We could go to the pre-CB days when there was no combat in the game at all. :-D I'd like to experience that, I'm too new...
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oh, so even though the new system was supposed to stop hit and run attacks, you still can use the tehnique, but only the first time, because then you have to cancel the attack manylly each time, before you are going to evaluate the proper timing, so that you can hit in the moement while in range.
I'm sorry to say people, but you are abusing the game by using hit and run attacks and you can't complain that now it became more annoying.
I used that tehnique too, because who wouldn't if you want to win a duel. The thing is that oce people are doing something better than you are, you have to learn this and do do the same. Abusing game or not, you have to. So, now it will be even more annoying, but there is nothing to complain about people.
As combat got semi fixed, now we have to wait till the process will be finished. So go ahead, give ideas, but forget about hit and run attacks, in this form it was for so long.
Stop moving attacks? What in the name of the gods would you want to do that for? Those are the strength of the Planeshift combat, and require real skill and timing to use!
Taking out the moving attack is NUTS.
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If you want to duel people using OOC player skills, go play Subspace: Continuum. Planeshift is a roleplaying game, and as such, it is the skill of your character that should make the most difference.
Hit and run attacks almost completely bipass the game mechanics. They bipass character skills in favour of player skills. Hit and Run attacks, in duels, is cheating.
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Fighting should be about character skill, not player skill. That's pretty much what this combat system is trying to accomplish.
Nurahk, this sounds okay in theory, but currently a person moderately trained in Sword and carrying a nice weapon can kill a character maxed in everything in one hit, and it makes a duel pretty much a coin toss: The person who hits first, wins. Not fun at all.
The way dueling was prior to 3.018, some skill was involved beyond blind luck and training. Luck and training were still factors, but not the only factor.
-Roahn
Its no coin toss at all. The skilled duelist will land that blow 85% of the time at least.
And in real life if you get hit by a razor sharp super high quality Short Sword in the hands of a 'moderate swordsman', even if you're chuck norris himself, you're going to die.
The old system was very realistic IMO. One of THE strengths of the entire game. :(
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Hit and Run attacks, in duels, is cheating.
And standing and duelling would be death to a sword user against a dagger user everytime.
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If you want to duel people using OOC player skills, go play Subspace: Continuum. Planeshift is a roleplaying game, and as such, it is the skill of your character that should make the most difference.
Hit and run attacks almost completely bipass the game mechanics. They bipass character skills in favour of player skills. Hit and Run attacks, in duels, is cheating.
So just stand there and "slog it out toe to toe" then?
TOTALLY LAME. Everyone ive spoken to in game tonight, everyone without exception, has agreed. And installing the combat mechanics of "push button, watch attack as you are totally uninvolved" is REAL fun, let me tell you...
Real sword fights are highly mobile affiars. There is lots of bursting in and out, circling, and sprinting. NO ONE just stands there and stabs each other. It is totally unrealistic, totally uninvolving....boring.
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Hit and Run attacks, in duels, is cheating.
And standing and duelling would be death to a sword user against a dagger user everytime.
Not all the time.
Remember that the combat system is still, like everything else, a work in progress. In the end, each weapon type will have advantages/disadvantages towards other weapon types, armor types, stances, etc.
Maybe it would be like that, as of right now with a not even half finished combat system, but probably not when it's all said and done. :)
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I don't think that in PnP RPGs the player skills with such tricks like timing and "hit and run" matter, but I disagree with the way the combat system was changed, I have some things to add about this system that would make it better.
1) You should be able hit someone that is not right at your front, but a little right or left from you and still ahead and with you facing the same direction from him, by horizontally slashing the target with a larger weapon (longsword) drawn to your left or to your right. Hitting enemies at your side would be easier with daggers, very hard with larger weapons and impossible with spears and polearms obviously. Only the hitting enemy on your back should be blocked.
2) A turn 180 degreess command(which speed of turning would depend on AGI) would be very useful in the case someone tried to backstab your character and immediate reaction is needed.
3) The "lock" attack seems to be just a temporary fix against the "hit and run" exploit. I think the best solution would be to make character collision and weapon ranges matter, right now you can't hit someone with a longsword before this one hits you with a dagger. There is another way of doing "hit and run", by changing it into withdrawing from range of your enemy, something that should not be so easy and that would give the enemy an opportunity to hit you before you withdraw.
4) Charging against your opponent instead of moving slowly to him should give you an offensive advantage and a defensive disadvantage. It should automatically change your instance to beserk or aggressive or perhaps add its effects to the stances.
5) Piercing, slashing and bludgeoning are equally sustained by all types of armor now, and a short sword is as effective to slash through a chain mail than a longsword. Kinds of weapons, damage types, sizes and such, for now, have no influence on the way armors will react to their strike.
6) Remove or reduce the power of the "one hit kills uber-weapons", they are the bane of all and turn combat into pure luck as someone with lvl 30 in daggers and 0 in light armors can kill anyone with some luck and two silverweaves(This is the case on the previous combat system as well, but in that case it was "someone with lvl 30 daggers, 0 in light armor and master of the timing and 'hit and run' can kill anyone with some luck". Also avoiding to use anything beyond a random number between 1-20 for combat rolls would be wise to avoid excessive randomness of combat.
7) Intelligence stat should be important as well. A smart character could actually withdraw automatically from combat if losing and take advantage of the environment.
And after all I disagree with such "fix" that seems to have brought more balance problems than to have solved the previous ones. The transition to character-based combat would definitively be better if it was implemented later after being a little more complete.
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So just stand there and "slog it out toe to toe" then?
TOTALLY AWESOME!
Fixed. :D
Real sword fights are highly mobile affiars. There is lots of bursting in and out, circling, and sprinting. NO ONE just stands there and stabs each other. It is totally unrealistic, totally uninvolving....boring.
To an extent, yes. But hit and run attacks in PS do not reflect that. They're of a very different nature.
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How do you people make 3 pages so fast? Anyway, what is this new style exactly? Is it just made so you have to face them to attack them, or is there something else?
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How do you people make 3 pages so fast? Anyway, what is this new style exactly? Is it just made so you have to face them to attack them, or is there something else?
Basically, you set your character to autoattack the target the instant you get into range.
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Good, I always wanted that. Now I don't have to keep mashing my mouse button down and spamming the chat window. This should also stop the "falling through the world" thing.
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Greetings everyone,
well, i have only been here in PS since 6 months ago or something, so i havent been around, when hit&run duels were called abusing the game mechanics or cheating, nor did i know, that it was illegal to fight like this. But what i can say is, that if I were a sword swinging guy in RL, who would have to fight someone, I wouldnt stand still either, if one good slash from my opponent would kill me instantly. I would skip around him, avoid him and try to get into his back or his side, and since most of the duels i fought [and that arent too less] were one-hit-kill duels, i did transfer the style i would use in RL, to PS. I apologize for the lack of knowledge i have, due to my late joining to PS, but i cannot understand, why running (or even moving is considered as cheating. I would do so in RL too, i would get a nice distance to my opponent, prepare my strike and rush into him, and if i failed, id repeat the whole procedure. Of course, this is a game, and comparing it to RL might sound silly to some of you. But I think it shows how careful Id be, if my life was in danger. And since this is a roleplaying game, i am allowed to roleplay my character, like i want, and if I want to let my personal way of sight influence my game character, it shouldnt be forbidden.
Now some of you will say: "you can still fight like before, hit&run is still possible" Yes, that is true, you can still make a new shortcut with /stopattack and if you failed to hit your opponent, you can start over again, but since your opponent has the possibility to stay in stance, it is like fighting someone, who swings his sword blindly, every 2 seconds, like a berserk. At least I dont want to be near such a fighter. I really appreciate the work the devs have done, in order to improve the duel/fighting system, and i do not mean to be rude or respectless to them or to anyone here with another opinion, than mine, but I can say, that the PvP system, like it was before, was IMO way better and more realistic than it is now. It was not perfect, you had not only to fight your opponent, you also had to fight some "bugs", as for example the pushing and pulling, you were effected by, when running in duels while in stance, or the instant-hit-kills on the other hand. (some people really called this a feature) To the last one: I do not really know, if it was a bug, because i heard someone saying, that the devs added this to the game code, to give ppl with bad connections the chance, to win against ppl with good connections. True or not, I hated it, it didnt have anything to do with your own duel skills, and i felt sorry for everyone, I killed due to this "feature".
If i could decide, I would change the combat system, to what it was before the update, hit&run is the ONLY way, to win a duel, axes vs daggers for example. Of course, i could switch to daggers, im maxed in every weapon skill (well, since swd goes higher than 80, you can leave this one out of consideration) and now that my STR is 200, i could one-hit-kill my opponent also with daggers, what was hardly possible before. But if everyone would do so, the devs wouldnt have to support or to invent any other weapon type anymore, because if daggers are the only way to have a chance in battle, everyone will stick to them from now on. Entire Yliakum would be populated with dagger fighters; swords, axes, hammers and whatever was planned to be implemented in the furure will become pointless. And your chance on winning a duel then, would be 50/50, if you fight someone with the same amount of training (stats and weaponskills). Before the update, you were able to defeat a higher skilled fighter (again, stats and weaponskills) and this was perfectly fine with me. Because otherwise, if someone challenges you, you would only have to check the other one's description (or now, to use the nice humanoid glyph ;)) and when you see, that your opponent is either weaker or stronger than you, only accept the challenge or decline it.
If you only see the stats and skills behind the fighter, the new system might seem like an improvement to you, but i also see the experience and the training in duels, many players obtained in their 2nd life in Yliakum, and now, due to the new combat system, all this means a damn nothing. If you werent good in hit&run duels, okay, but it was trainable, you made experience and you got better and better every time. To train anything now, is pointless, as there is nothing to train, except for stats and skills. The new combat system didnt add a new skill to PS (which also wasnt planned at all, i know :)), but it has taken out one of the skills, that meant most to me, and im sure to many other people: your own duel skill!
Now go on, agree with me or disagree with me, ignore me or offend me, tell me to go play another game or whatever, i wanted to make my statement, and so have I done now.
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Rongar Elani, what is your reaction to my criticisms of the old system?
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\\o// \\o// \\o// Awessome!! Finaly!!
ok now this alone is reason enough to get my A## back in Hydlaa plaza .
Really now , i do agree with most of the arguments about beeing able to move in a fight , but the "movements" , dodges and other things should be linked to character skills and stats not the player bashing keys . So yes i`m VERY happy with click the attack and wait for the results . If by player skil you understand the player ability to bash 1000000 keys / second and time the process aswell , as in bash key 102 at exactly 0.12231 seconds from the combat start , then this type of player skill should have no place in PS . Go play a shooter and attempt to get a headshot on the guy behind the wall while jumping backwards and twisting in mid-air or somethig . The runing back-and-forth attempting to time your attack requires only one skill : avoiding game mechanics lvl 30 or higher
As for PvP , I am a big suporter of it , actually free all-around PvP , that is the ability to attack anyone anywhere would be great in later stages of the game , however with SERIOUS implications for killing other people , if caught ofcourses , such as (NPC)guards baning you from the towns , NPC`s denying you services prison time or such . Anyone remember the consequences of killing a guard or two in Morrowind?
Ofcourse this will only be posible when Death Realm is actually completed to some degree and death becomes a "serious" thing , not just a free trip to a vendor . PvP in RPG`s should NOT be similar with PvP in FPS`s , where the emphasis is on geting 1000 kills/game and on top of it that l337 uber h3adshot
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Go play a shooter and attempt to get a headshot on the guy behind the wall while jumping backwards and twisting in mid-air or somethig . The runing back-and-forth attempting to time your attack requires only one skill : avoiding game mechanics lvl 30 or higher
Why should we? We play PS because it's the best RP game around, telling us to "play another game" because we disagree that dueling changed for the worse is idiotic. Yes there's no player skill involved now but levels don't matter much either, making duels pretty pointless altogether.
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If you want to duel people using OOC player skills, go play Subspace: Continuum. Planeshift is a roleplaying game, and as such, it is the skill of your character that should make the most difference.
Zanzibar, I've tried to ignore your posts, but you keep saying the same thing over and over again. You make many assumptions about what Planeshift is "meant to be." Yes, Planeshift is a roleplaying game. But it is also a monster-smacking game, a PvP game, a war game, a game of chance (I consider looting rogues and hoping for the "jackpot" of a silverweave to be akin to a slot machine), a social gathering, and a dating service. Planeshift is any sort of game you wish to make it.
It is apparent that YOU do not wish to have player skills influence the outcome of a duel. A couple others probably agree with you. However, the vast majority of the large groups of people that regularly get together in the DR to enjoy the PvP part of Planeshift would disagree with you.
Much RP also involves some sort of PvP. Look at the major RPs that have taken place this last year. Most of the long-term RPs as well as short-term RPs have had PvP at their center. Dwarvesbane and their war with Dwarven Star, the Magi/Outlaws war, the slavers war... Hours and hours of RP were involved in these battles. If the devs take the excitement out of PvP and turn it into a coin-toss to decide the outcome, and I think much of the interest of Planeshift will vanish. Nothing left to do but stand around and god-mod.
Hit and run attacks almost completely bipass the game mechanics. They bipass character skills in favour of player skills.
You are mistaken.
Using Hit and run attacks is USING the game mechanics as created by the devs, not bypassing it. Also they do not bypass character skills... they are merely another variable. Player skill + character training + weapon quality + luck. If anything bypasses character skills, it is overpowered weapons. When someone with a relatively low skill kills a maxed character in one hit, then training skills to a high level become a waste of time. If you do 220 hp damage per hit, you'll kill anyone in one hit. Training higher so you do 450 hp damage is purely overkill.
Hit and Run attacks, in duels, is cheating.
This is a completely and utter lie. If Hit and Run attacks are cheating, where is this rule listed in the handbook that states this? Why are people not being banned en mass for dueling? Why has a GM never come to the DR while a dozen people are using Hit and Run attacks and said "Stop, cheater!"
Just because you don't want to fight someone who learns the combat system doesn't mean that using that system is cheating.
-Roahn
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I really think this will turn into powerleveling game, I made this thread so people could talk about this, and like rongar said running while someone chases you with a sword is smart, jumping around and slashin em is tactical, better experience and more fun, with the new combat system its *click* 1.4 seconds hes dead yay, .98 duel points for me, Im awesome!!!!" I liked when people timed, worked for their player skills not click "DAM I died...son of a ulbar"
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Oh no, Roahn, hit and run attacks do bipass the game mechanics. Not only are you bipassing certain game mechanics - you're bipassing those mechanics by exploiting others. As far as learning how to duel using hit and run attacks, I've pretty good at it, so I don't dislike it for lack of personal ability.
@Volund: Some people play this game without ever getting into a single duel.
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Sounds like a system I'd love .. not that I duel much. ;D
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Rongar Elani, what is your reaction to my criticisms of the old system?
Sorry? I dont get that question. And just "Rongar" will do ;)
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Not much to say here other than the fact that I hate the new combat system.
It's boring and no fun, and duels are as Gharan said, pointless.
Press the button move in and pray. Or run around like an idiot attempting to get
behind your opponent, risky due to lag (he could be behind you.)
Either way you might as well roll 2 cubes and have the low roller /die.
I noticed on moving NPCs I can never hit them till they stop due to not facing
and them not being where my client tells me I guess, another annoyance
for me I don't like camping and like to run around like an idiot.
Quote:
If you want an arcade game, go play Soldier of Fortune II and find a knives-only server.
Go play a shooter
Sure just tell people to leave the game that's what we need.
Has anyone ever heard of an action roleplaying game???
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ok , again , PvP is necesary, imperative , with out PvP PS would never be complete . I dare say there can be no real RP without at least the posibility of PvP
action-game style PvP , in my humble opinion , does NOT belong in a RPG game
action role playing games as some games are called are fun , i play them , I play shooters aswell , i enjoy fast-paced action and adrenaline rushes every now and then , but these games are NOT rpg`s , no even so cold action rpg`s are NOT ROLE playing games .
Combat in Planeshift , especialy PvP , is FAR from functional at the moment , much less perfect . But things seem to be moving in the right way
"Either way you might as well roll 2 cubes and have the low roller /die"
hmm...well A LOT of cubes actually , or dies , to calculate all the variables (eventualy) present in combat such as weapon type vs armor type , chanche to hit , to miss and so on...and get the result "x hits Y" for # dmg" , " Y dodges X `s hit" ...this is the way characters (should) perform dodges , evades , sneack attacks and such things , not by bashing the keys and by the Player knowing better then his oponent Player when to move forward and backwards
Remember it`s not you in there , it`s your character . The player skill should manifest it`s self (eventualy, in a final version) in the decisions you make about your character and in what he(she) becomes
well at least this is my opinion on things and how a RPG should be . But then again , if things go the other way , as it seems the vast majority of players now actually belive "diablo" , "dungeon siege" and "WoW" to be Role playing games (yes they are great games but not role playing games) , it`s fine with me , after all the players are the ones that make an online game worth playing or not
and i`m not telling people to leave the game , i`m just saying that if they want "action" and"excitement" they should play shooters , i know i do
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Note to the Pro-RP-Only crowd... some of us duelers like RPing too... and when you keep telling us to go play another game... it's offensive... for one thing it's dismissive of our RP... but it's also not the way to handle maturely debating things like game mechanics... we make a few valid points... and you say "go play a shooter"... you're missing the point and making idiotic suggestions which don't help contribute to anything useful.
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So just stand there and "slog it out toe to toe" then?
TOTALLY AWESOME!
Fixed. :D
Real sword fights are highly mobile affiars. There is lots of bursting in and out, circling, and sprinting. NO ONE just stands there and stabs each other. It is totally unrealistic, totally uninvolving....boring.
To an extent, yes. But hit and run attacks in PS do not reflect that. They're of a
very different nature.
To the contrary, the running attack capabilities, with the exception of being able to run right through an opponent, were FANTASTIC before this fix. Unique, and perfectly suited to the various timing delays of the weapons. And whats more, i can STILL do all those things, but now it requres even more timing and practice, meaning once perfected, my edge will be even more prohibitive against somone who's not bothered to take the time to set up key bindings and learn the basics of moving combat.
Ver 03018 has taken the very STRENGTH of PS, the absolutely FANTASTIC mobile combat, and is trying to relegate itself into another point and click bore-a-thon that requires no skill, actually ENCOURAGES powerleveling, and in essence makes you no more than an interested bystander as your combat is resolved by stats alone, requiring no more than a mouse click of input.
Again, after many more hours ingame, there is widespread hatred of this new rule. Yes....hatred.
*edit*
Note to the Pro-RP-Only crowd... some of us duelers like RPing too... and when you keep telling us to go play another game... it's offensive... as it's dismissive of our RP.
In my experience it is the dueling crowd that actually does MOST of the RPing.
**edit**
ANYONE that wants to learn the basics of dueling shoot me a /tell in game anytime, and i'll gladly teach you. Those non-duelers among you are missing out entirely on one of the true strengths of PS, it's absolutely fantastic pvp dueling/mobile attacking capabilities.
Having this system is absolutely beneficial to the RP quality of the game. Cebot is a fantastic RPer and one of the top duelists. I dont see how driving people like him away is going to increase RP quality for anyone. It will only hurt the game.
I think whats at play is laziness among many RPers who cant be bothered to spend 30 mins to learn to duel/fight on move, and who get miffed when they subsequently get owned in duels by those that have.
Moving in melee combat is no "exploit", it's just plain common sense. No two ways about it.Go play a shooter and attempt to get a headshot on the guy behind the wall while jumping backwards and twisting in mid-air or somethig . The runing back-and-forth attempting to time your attack requires only one skill : avoiding game mechanics lvl 30 or higher
Why should we? We play PS because it's the best RP game around, telling us to "play another game" because we disagree that dueling changed for the worse is idiotic. Yes there's no player skill involved now but levels don't matter much either, making duels pretty pointless altogether.
EXACTLY. It was best RP around and ALSO had a fantastic mobile combat system to boot! Best of both worlds it was!
Please unfix it devs. :(
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If you want to duel people using OOC player skills, go play Subspace: Continuum. Planeshift is a roleplaying game, and as such, it is the skill of your character that should make the most difference.
Hit and run attacks almost completely bipass the game mechanics. They bipass character skills in favour of player skills. Hit and Run attacks, in duels, is cheating.
Here is something that might astound you, I know many if not most of the duelers in this game. All of them, without exception, are exceptional RPers (to the core). They are dedicated to this world, through and through. They roleplay even in the most strenuous of duels and they RP passionately when not dueling. Dueling has become an integral part of RP. Its what makes a warrior a warrior, a ranger a ranger, a fighter a fighter.
In the real world, a swordsman doesn't do what you claim he should do. Mobility is the key to combat, specially when you are outclassed. A fencer does not stand staticly before his opponent in real life. Why should that now be disabled here?
A character's skill already has a huge impact on a duel's outcome. Since its obvious you've had little or no experience dueling, perhaps you might consider trying it. Hit and run attacks is real, its how real fights occur. Perhaps you were planning to stand before the Ulber and let character skills apply there too?
Eila
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WHAT!? you mean I cant fight my opponent when I cant even see them? How ludicrous! :whistling:
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What Eila says about mobile melee engagements is true. If i have a 30x30 room, i'll use every inch of it in a fight. Esp if fighting multiple opponents.
What i wont do, ever, is just stand there and trade puncture and slash wounds with my opponent...
If you face me and you have 'better stats' but i am still very competent, you bet your but i can beat you in a mobile fight if it breaks my way. Many, many, many 'superior' warriors have fallen to lowly foot soldiers and men at arms. From the dawn of history on.
This is personal melee combat. The entire notion of "Rules" or "cheating" to begin with in these sorts of street or wilderness encounters is quite ludicris at it's base.
And beyond that, it really takes away from one of PS's best strengths and most appealing features.
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Look people ... there was a time when the old combat system wasn't so old yet when dueling was nothing more than standing opposed to eachother and seeing who is strongest. Then a few people learned that tactical fighting was much better than just standing there. So the started moving around, making sure they could hit but weren't hit as much as possible.
Now a new system is in place, far more realistic and in my opinion far superior.
People are falling back to the old 'stand opposed to eachother and hack away' routine ... again until a few people will work out tactics and show their superiority. With the factor of needing to face your opponent, tactical fighting is really born. Before it was the one who was running around and spamming their attack button the most that won, now it will really require tactics and skill to win. It's an entirely different approach but with a lot more options and a lot more actual thinking instead of sheer luck.
The only thing that would make it perfect is more mobility with strafing and turning.
Now quit yer whining and learn to fight! :P
Edit: Ok I found one thing that's not fair. NPCs don't need to face you to attack, just like before but we still do. I'd rather have them obey the same rules than us.
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Wow, this is just amaizing, 5 pages in less than 24h and do you know what is this thread?
it is bunch of people who are eighter go for it, or complaining. I doubt that a single person who posted up there got convinced to change side. The ones who are comlaining don't listen to those who are "go for it" and the second group sometimes do the same, I gues because they don't like being ignored.
Have fun arguing.
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This just the way I thought the PS Fighting/Crafting/Skill system was supposed to operate.
One goes to a trainer to learn a skill/technique, one practices till perfected which then raises ones ability (Hit power, HP or crafting ability)
One also goes to a trainer like going to a gym to improve stamina, strength etc.
So that when one duels/mines/crafts the accumulation of a chars natural ability (creation stats), quality of equipment and training will decide the outcome of a fight or even the quality/speed with which one crafts items.
So while currently the chars stand toe to toe, the game mechs are going through a complicated process of deciding who is fastest, strongest has the best tactics reactions etc. May be one day it will be possible to animate this process but just because we can't be seen running around the room darting in and out doesn't mean it is not taking place.
This leads me to hit n run timing ones clicks and spamming the attack button and any other ooc techniques used in duelling. Most of the points in this thread seem to say it is a valid part of duelling but in my opinion they invalidate much of the already inplace game mechs, if as implied a significant difference can be made then the stats/skill levels may as well be fixed and the Player ability as opposed to Char abilty will make the difference.
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To add clarification...
The biggest issue is the timing being complicated by an unnecessary keypress to stop auto-attacking.
The majority of duelers against the new system aren't looking for an ability to slash behind them... if anything it's just sideways... and even then... the real upset is caused by the automated repeat attacking mechanism more than anything else. (@dying_inside your picking on the trivial, less-important issue... but what about the timing? - the thing that we're more bothered about.)
As for attack spamming, you could easily put a client-side timer that stops further attacks being sent until the current attack is complete. -- If someone hits attack whilst already in an attack, they'd get a "You are already attacking" message.
So.. to be a good dueler now, just use SW daggers, power-level and keep your back against a wall. (though in real life that'd probably be the worst combat tactic!!)
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Not much to say here other than the fact that I hate the new combat system.
It's boring and no fun, and duels are as Gharan said, pointless.
Fighting usually is pointless, so....
Here is something that might astound you, I know many if not most of the duelers in this game. All of them, without exception, are exceptional RPers (to the core).
That has not been my experience.
In the real world, a swordsman doesn't do what you claim he should do. Mobility is the key to combat, specially when you are outclassed. A fencer does not stand staticly before his opponent in real life. Why should that now be disabled here?
Hit and run attacks do not at all reflect real world combat.
And beyond that, it really takes away from one of PS's best strengths and most appealing features.
If PvP was Planeshifts most appealing features, perhaps this change is good.
Combat is new to PS. Don't forget that.
The biggest issue is the timing being complicated by an unnecessary keypress to stop auto-attacking.
So don't stop the auto-attacking.
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I sympathize with all players who liked the old way of dueling, I see that many of them like to RP as well, and will definately not tell them to find another game. There are a few points I want people to consider though.
First of all, an obvious one, combat as it is now is not as it will be when it is finished. Arguments like 'in real life you move around' are true for now, but not when it is taken into account in both formulas (for dodge, etc) and animation (in the end, you may see characters run around the room in fights that take minutes). This includes fine tuning things to not result in one hit kills. There are long threads about how this could/should work, but things like length of weapon, using weapons for defence will probably taken into account in later versions (10 years from now :) ).
Secondly, there is the point of player skill vs character skill. What is difficult to distinguish in many posts, is which of the two 'I's is speaking. So I will try to make that clearer here.
I, the character Lanarel, am not too bad in using a sword and defending myself using light armor (about level 35 in both). I can easilly kill many monsters and all that lives in the arena (so not including visitors :) ). It may even get easier if I find some better swords. I have not duelled much, since I do not like to kill others for fun, especially if they are much weaker than me, and I fear what guards might do if I just murder someone, or how trainers will think of me when I go to them to train, and they know that I use my skills for killing for fun. If there were a reason to fight for a good cause (such as that battle near the face some time ago), I am not afraid to risk going to the death realm (as I surprisingly did, despite my skills).
I, the player behind Lanarel, am playing this game on a PC that is able to run it, but sometimes with some lag due to memory limitations. It makes movement sometimes look a bit strange, but luckily it does not matter in fighting npcs, due to the way the combat system is made. It would make dueling another player who uses a hit and run technique impossible though, even if their character would be much weaker. Making a character that would be a good dueller does not make sense if the outcome of a duel mostly is defined by hardware and training in using the right shortcuts.
In real life, I have been fencing for almost 20 years. At the moment I am one of the better sabre fencers in my country, which arguably does not say that much compared to countries with more fencing tradition, but definately means something relative to many fencers, let alone people who never have held a fencing weapon. However, this should not help my characters in game at all. However, my reaction times are well better than average. As such, if my hardware were better and if I would spent a bit of time on training hit and run, I should be able to beat many players, despite their character being more skilled or having a better weapon. As a fencer, I would think it was completely unrealistic, especially taking into account the skill of my character.
To come back to a few points made in other posts:
Here is something that might astound you, I know many if not most of the duelers in this game. All of them, without exception, are exceptional RPers (to the core). They are dedicated to this world, through and through. They roleplay even in the most strenuous of duels and they RP passionately when not dueling. Dueling has become an integral part of RP. Its what makes a warrior a warrior, a ranger a ranger, a fighter a fighter.
I cannot (and do not want to) disagree with that. I wonder though, how selective the run and attack way of duelling is. In other words, how many players would have duelling characters if combat was less depending on hardware and player skills (and combat was more developed :) ). From reading this thread you get the idea that (almost) all duelers like the old way. But isn't it like asking people on an invitation only party what they like about the picture on the invitation? And then telling someone at the door "Sorry not interested in your opinion, you were not invited". Ok, maybe this is not a perfect analogy, but it shows what I mean.
In the real world, a swordsman doesn't do what you claim he should do. Mobility is the key to combat, specially when you are outclassed. A fencer does not stand staticly before his opponent in real life. Why should that now be disabled here?
As you can read above, I fully agree with that, except for the last question. It is exactly the reason it should be disabled FOR THE PLAYER, it
just is not yet implemented (as an animation, balancing, formulas) for the character.
A character's skill already has a huge impact on a duel's outcome. Since its obvious you've had little or no experience dueling, perhaps you might consider trying it. Hit and run attacks is real, its how real fights occur. Perhaps you were planning to stand before the Ulber and let character skills apply there too?
Hit and run attacks are not real. Would my opponent in fencing be surprised if I would run right through him and attack him from behind. To be
fair, fencing as a sport has to have its limitations as well. Since no blood is involved, rules are made to prevent you from running into your opponents weapon with your hearth because you are going to hurt his toe. Hit and run has its similarities to how you play with distance in a fencing match, but again, me the player being very good at that should not mean all of my characters are as well.
And yes, my character would stand in front of an ulber and die (I have some nice screenshots to prove that :) ). And my character should be killed. If an ulber is that strong that it requires more than one to kill it, it should only be killed by more than one.
What Eila says about mobile melee engagements is true. If i have a 30x30 room, i'll use every inch of it in a fight. Esp if fighting multiple opponents.
What i wont do, ever, is just stand there and trade puncture and slash wounds with my opponent...
Again, this is what you see, because computations are hidden, animations are not shown, and combat development just is not ready yet. In the end, this all should be taken into account and be visible, but not requiring skill from the player.
If you face me and you have 'better stats' but i am still very competent, you bet your but i can beat you in a mobile fight if it breaks my way.
Many, many, many 'superior' warriors have fallen to lowly foot soldiers and men at arms. From the dawn of history on.
This is a nice example of the two I's. It should say, "If you face me, 'the character', and you 'the character' have better stats, but I 'the character and/or player' am still very competent, you 'the player' bet your 'character's' butt, I, 'the PLAYER' can BEAT YOU 'the CHARACTER' in a mobile fight"
Ver 03018 has taken the very STRENGTH of PS, the absolutely FANTASTIC mobile combat, and is trying to relegate itself into another point and click bore-a-thon that requires no skill, actually ENCOURAGES powerleveling, and in essence makes you no more than an interested bystander as your combat is resolved by stats alone, requiring no more than a mouse click of input.
Again, after many more hours ingame, there is widespread hatred of this new rule. Yes....hatred.
This quote shows some sentiments present in many posts (although a bit more strongly here). The thing is, these are opinions, that are possibly shared by many. My opinion may be different, and it is. I do not think the mobile combat is FANTASTIC, nor that it is the very STRENGTH of PS. It should require skill, but character skill, not players. The new combat (which is not finished) may get some people power-leveling, but it would not affect me. Because those may not be the people I would duel with when it is part of RP. Besides, I hope that at some point, there are so many skills, that you cannot level them all to max, making the outcome of a duel not that easy to predict. Again, I understand many players think the previous way of combat was more fun, but that does not mean everyone does. Or even that if everyone who does something likes it, all others would not do it if it were different.
Some of the posts giving an opinion (from both sides) are being attacked not on the opinion, but on the sound of the message. Someone says "it does not fit RP", another replies "We are also RPers". Can we just agree there are different opinions, and try to use our energy to come with suggestions to improve the combat system for everyone, to fit the character, but also be fun to use?
And sorry for this getting so long :)
Some new posts since I started, one of them says:
Wow, this is just amaizing, 5 pages in less than 24h and do you know what is this thread?
it is bunch of people who are eighter go for it, or complaining. I doubt that a single person who posted up there got convinced to change side. The ones who are comlaining don't listen to those who are "go for it" and the second group sometimes do the same, I gues because they don't like being ignored.
Have fun arguing.
I hope the arguing will stop, and people seeing they are not necessarily all on different sides, just at different stages of combat developement. Some say "It will be great when finished", others say "It is not fun at the moment". Not sure if my post helps though (by adding another page).
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This new system has solved one problem and replaced it with another one.
There is a lack of skill now, when it comes to dueling, and that was it's biggest promoter, the skill needed to be good.
With that taken away, we have a group of people saying that it should be your character skill determining the outcome of the battle.
And should such skill be= to your opponents, you have a 50% chance of living or dieing.
I just have to say.... where is the fun in that?
Why not just take all skill out of the equation, and become like WOW, where skills are all that matters really.
Just point at a person, click, and stand there, no need to run away.
Why not do that?
Because there is no mid road.
Either you allow player skill to always be the reason for winning.
Or you allow ranking skills to be the victor.
Currently the game forced some level of character skill, you can't kill with a weapon in 1 hit, with skill in sword/axe/dagger less than level 5.
Widely practiced was the need for people to get to a minimum of about 20-30, with others maxing stats.
But those at rank 30 could beat those with maxed stats with player skill, yet those with skill 1 coudln't touch anyone really.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My point of this is that, we had stance problems before, i agree, i reported them and waited for a solution.
This isn't the solution.
This is the box to a plethera of other problems.
If you want a full roleplaying game, please go play a Mud, any mud, there are millions.
And if you want to play a dueling game please play silkroad ;) ;D (quite fun actually lol)
And if you want to play a game that's ALL about rank play Kings of chaos (Very fun, i'm BGF_kill).
You know what i like saying, when i speak about planeshift.
We're all three!! We RP, we duel, and we need SOME level of rank to succeed in duelling and killing mobs, rank plays a part.
Again to those who want rank to be everything, you want to turn this game into a point click and lay back duelling game.
It's funny that i don't see any of the good duelists wanting this ;) ;D
The games not mine to mold, so we'll see what happens, Lord knows the Community has no say on the game lol, that's been proven time and time again.
~~Datruth
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I mentioned and Lanarel continued the main difference I see between the two viewpoints is the apparent inability of the PvPers duelists plers whatever one wishes to call them to differentiate between Player skill and Char skill.
Here is something that might astound you, I know many if not most of the duelers in this game. All of them, without exception, are exceptional RPers (to the core).
I don't entirely agree with the "all of them", I am not so conceited to think I am exceptional myself and I try not to judge and accept all as they come good or bad, but if they are exceptional why not rp the entire duel it can be a lot more fun than just hammering keys They are dedicated to this world, through and through. They roleplay even in the most strenuous of duels and they RP passionately when not dueling.
to type and rp while running madly about?
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The games not mine to mold, so we'll see what happens, Lord knows the Community has no say on the game lol, that's been proven time and time again.
Too true, any arguments against the new system will fall on deaf ears and why there's is a wishlist i'll never know. I'd rename it to the never read spam list. From what i've heard dueling willl just go further downhill in the future so i'll stick to RP. If anyone wants to duel me bring your dice or go home.
@Socia I will miss you I hear you deleted your char :(
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I miss the old PS generation and you know who you are, whoever is left, anyway I know that dueling the old way seemed to make things more fun and apparently this thread is either your on one side or the other. Gm's dont seem to hear us and I hope their is a compromise. The people who like it the way it is, maybe you dont like dueling but for the majority MANY people LUUUUUVVVV dueling the way it was, DR was packed with people training, and even lag didnt stop them. There was always the OOC /tell good duel.
I dont powerlevel, and I wont, most of my RP is part dueling, jumping and attacking, you dont have to smash your keyboard for gods sake, time your attack.
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Just because there is no response does not mean that you are not heard.
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apparently this thread is either your on one side or the other.
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27534.msg313272#msg313272 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27534.msg313272#msg313272)
Am I the only one that dislikes both the previous combat system and the current one and that see both as flawed?
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Just because there is no response does not mean that you are not heard.
Being heard and listened to are completely different.
Am I the only one that dislikes both the previous combat system and the current one and that see both as flawed?
No, It's just most and I mean MOST of us see it has taken steps back than forward.
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It is unfortunate, Dueling will become pawnage rather than a sport/art form. There is no real challenge or real skill needed to win a duel it has been reduced to levels. The PLers will love it. While the older duelists will be found sitting in the tavern sobbing over their ales remembering the good old days when a duel was honorable. It is the end of the golden age of dueling. with the advent of the machinegunsword attack.
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It is unfortunate, Dueling will become pawnage rather than a sport/art form. There is no real challenge or real skill needed to win a duel it has been reduced to levels. The PLers will love it. While the older duelists will be found sitting in the tavern sobbing over their ales remembering the good old days when a duel was honorable. It is the end of the golden age of dueling. with the advent of the machinegunsword attack.
omg, i was laughing so hard when i read that lol ;D :woot: :lol:
It's soo true though.
We listen to the community, we listen, we try to do what's best.... ~~Our Centrally controlled game
You've heard the community.
We'll wait for the actions, and see if you such up your pride and do what's best.
My bet is, the machinegunsword wins.... :(
I had fun while it lasted guys, you can always check out some of my old vids for a glimpse into the past.
~~Datruth
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seems like the duels will be done the same way as they are in other, lesser, RPGs such as silk road, no skill, only levels. tis a sad sad day indeed.
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I hope we are being heard AND listened to, this thread and all this arguing for nothing...I hope not. gwinn was true when she said no challenge at alll, why not click wait a second and roll a dice? fun right? instead of slashing, jumping running and shooting arrows...yeah *click* IISS SSOOo much better than what it used to be. I like Rp of course, but duelign was a big part, the old combat system had flaws but those were fixed and then replaced with these flaws. It is a sad day redic...another WoW or silkroad...or Runescape...maplestory the same story, but really this game is about fun, lets have some, this thread is about the old dueling which was fanatically awesome.
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Very few people seem to understand the underlying argument of "player skill" versus "character skill." I find this disappointing. I also find a lot of the melodramatic "those were days" attitude a turn-off in this thread. Why do you go about moaning as if every feature that gets added is now set in stone, and defines the way PlaneShift will feel in the future? "This is the end of fun duels," "PlaneShift will now be like every other game," etc., etc. If we're posting material for the developers to read, let's post maturely instead of going off into a nostalgia about something in a beta game.
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Very few people seem to understand the underlying argument of "player skill" versus "character skill." I find this disappointing. I also find a lot of the melodramatic "those were days" attitude a turn-off in this thread. Why do you go about moaning as if every feature that gets added is now set in stone, and defines the way PlaneShift will feel in the future? "This is the end of fun duels," "PlaneShift will now be like every other game," etc., etc. If we're posting material for the developers to read, let's post maturely instead of going off into a nostalgia about something in a beta game.
I'm just curious... what was so mature about your comment?
Did you really add anything to the arguement?
Do you know why some of the best players in the community are expressing outrage?
Do you know of any reputable players who feel this new system is great, and an improvement?
Please... if they took the graphics away and made it an all text game, you'd defend the PS team to death.
You're loyalty is flawed, the community is what makes PS great.
If something is wrong with a key piece of the game, would you sit back and take it?
Please, let us hear your opinions about the subject, i don't know where you stand, except for telling us to shut up about our opinions.
So please share your opinion with us, we promise we won't tell you to stop talking.
~~Datruth
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the fact that PS is a alpha version means we all need to contribute to make the game better, and I do but the old way of dueling was a whole lot of fun for majority of PS populace
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Player Skill vs Character Skill
Why would we have sub-games like the one in Brado's then... if it's all down to JUST the character... wouldn't the character automatically play the game based on a level or a roll of a die??
This is why the char skill vs. player skill thing doesn't hold up as a solid rule of the Planeshift world.. if it does... the devs have made a contradiction to your argument.. and it's sat in Brado's tavern.
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Datruth, I noticed that you have a habit of being very hostile and aggressive when someone disagrees with either your opinion or your posting manner, and my personal suggestion would be to lighten up.
I commented on what I thought was unattractive in this thread. As far as I am concerned, we do have the right to our opinions. Notice how I didn't tell anyone to shut up, nor stop talking. I mentioned being disappointed about some posts and offered a suggestion. So don't turn me into something I'm not - an asskisser. I don't know you a whole lot, but you know next to nothing about me - our interaction has been comprised of a few posts on this forum, and you have very little right to make assumptions about me, or my loyalty.
I'm not going to share my opinion on this feature in this thread - this is a hornet's nest that I am not too keen on entering deeper. I know how to forward my thoughts to the developers directly, and have done so. The bickering here is not the sort of atmosphere I consider productive.
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I am not hostile, I created this thread so the devs would hear ME and US out, I WANT MY OPIONS HEARD anf the same goes FOR EVERYONE ELSE, anyone can give some wisdom here, Im all open :thumbup:
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My Inclination is to agree with Shakilai on this (and previously Nurahk, and Ram and Zanz and likely others). Imagine a game of D&D. You get moves per round, and for each of those you get to say what your character attempts. Then a combination of _His_ skill (levels) and _His_ luck (the roll) determines the outcome. Not _your_ skill and not _your_ luck. It is my understanding that Planeshift is meant to closely resemble a PnP RPG. Also, it's been implied in the past (though i don't know where off the top of my head) that so called 'Hit-n-Run' dueling would not always be possible. The idea, I think, is to make it more like i've described.
The game board is different for this reason: In the duel you determine your character's move, just not the outcome. On the gameboard, there is no outcome, there are only moves. Which you determine.
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My Inclination is to agree with Shakilai on this (and previously Nurahk). Imagine a game of D&D. You get moves per round, and for each of those you get to say what your character attempts. Then a combination of _His_ skill (levels) and _His_ luck (the roll) determines the outcome. Not _your_ skill and not _your_ luck. It is my understanding that Planeshift is meant to closely resemble a PnP RPG. Also, it's been implied in the past (though i don't know where off the top of my head) that so called 'Hit-n-Run' dueling would not always be possible. The idea, I think, is to make it more like i've described.
The game board is different for this reason: In the duel you determine your character's move, just not the outcome. On the gameboard, there is no outcome, there are only moves. Which you determine.
Yes, but you can evade your enemy, if willing to risk to receive an "Attack of Opportunity" and run again towards him after it. Thus hit and run tactics are valid, but they should present a new risk to the one trying them.
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I think it is interesting that people think that PvP should NOT incorporate the Player's skills as well as the Character's skills. You see, the Player adds in skills more than just physical. It would be practically impossible to completely separate the Player's abilities from the Character, because the Player's tactics and strategy come into play, as well as fast reactions or accurate timing.
There are many ways to use tactics in PvP that don't rely on physical abilities, but on mental. Here are some examples:
I hit someone in a duel, knocking them down to 5%. They can kill you in one hit, so it's very risky to try to hit them a second time, so I fall back and fire an arrow to finish them off from a safe distance. Of course, a few players who have not bothered to train in magic might call me a cheater because I used a tactic they didn't expect, but that's just using tactics.
I fight someone far, far more trained than I. The moment it starts, I run and hide, and shoot missiles or arrows at them, knowing I have no possible way to scratch through their armor. (I did this several times when I was a brand new character). Run, hide, shoot. Run hide, shoot. It isn't easy, it takes a LOT of tactics (on the part of the Player), but it is possible to beat someone who's Character is highly trained in combat, but the Player is not. Again, those that haven't bothered to learn the use of magic and prefer to just stand still and slog it out without tactics might whine.
Using the terrain to your advantage: Someone challenges, you accept, then circle around to a rock, ledge or couter and hop up on it. Now they have to circle around to reach you, so you can jump down as they go past, and whack them while they are facing away.
These are only a few examples of *mental* strategies that incorporate the Player's skills rather than the Character's skills, and can often make the difference between a win and a loss.
I look forward to the day when other spells become useful. Right now, Freeze, Meteor, Weakness, Darkness and many other spells are useless. But suppose they fix the magic system, so Freeze slows you down, Meteor (a very high level spell that is very slow to cast) kills you in one hit if you give the caster enough time to cast it. Suppose Weakness actually weakened you, making your unable to do much damage, and could be cast from more then touch distance away. Suppose Darkness would surround the target, causing them to not be able to see well for a period of time, instead of following the caster (how silly is that? Look! I can use magic to blind myself! Woohoo!)
If and when these other existing spells are made more useful and balanced, I think there will be much more variety in duels, and will give advantage to the Character that takes the time to train them, and to the Player the practices their use, and knows when to use which spell.
Again, it is pretty close to impossible to completely remove the Player's abilities and tactics from the game, without reducing it to a simple "let's roll the dice, and the one who rolls the lower number types /die" type of combat. If this happens, I am 100% sure that I will leave Planeshift, and so will many other of our most active RPers.
-Roahn
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Datruth, I noticed that you have a habit of being very hostile and aggressive when someone disagrees with either your opinion or your posting manner, and my personal suggestion would be to lighten up.
Personal attack first... o.k moving on....
I commented on what I thought was unattractive in this thread. As far as I am concerned, we do have the right to our opinions. Notice how I didn't tell anyone to shut up, nor stop talking. I mentioned being disappointed about some posts and offered a suggestion. So don't turn me into something I'm not - an asskisser. I don't know you a whole lot, but you know next to nothing about me - our interaction has been comprised of a few posts on this forum, and you have very little right to make assumptions about me, or my loyalty.
Gee... asking us .....
". Why do you go about moaning as if"
Doesn't really make us feel you respect our opinions.
And as you so nicely pointed out
"The bickering here"
If that isn't telling us our words arn't important and serious.... than i have no clue what that is.
And if that isn't a plea trying to get us to stop voicing our "moaning" or "bickering" i don't know what is.
I'm not going to share my opinion on this feature in this thread - this is a hornet's nest that I am not too keen on entering deeper. I know how to forward my thoughts to the developers directly, and have done so. The bickering here is not the sort of atmosphere I consider productive.
So basically you don't want to share your opinions, and just came down to tell us to stop moaning... that's very productive of you bro.
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One last thing:
Datruth, I noticed that you have a habit of being very hostile and aggressive
I don't know you a whole lot, but you know next to nothing about me - our interaction has been comprised of a few posts on this forum,
For someone who doesn't know me a whole lot, it's very funny you start mudslinging so early.
Get to know me, i don't bite.
And accusations about one's character... don't give you cookie points. :thumbdown:
Keep that in mind son. ;)
~~Datruth
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Glad to see I wasn't mistaken :) That's exactly what I meant when I made my previous post - I said "I noticed that you have a habit of being very aggressive [...]" (how is that a personal attack, I will never know) and you go on and prove me right.
This is why a lot of players don't like these forums, and I imagine why a lot of the developers remain silent as well. Many people here like antagonizing each other and never enjoy being told that their posting methods are less than agreeable. Maybe if you change your attitude, you will see your opinion and your voice welcomed a lot more. And maybe then others will allow you to speak for them.
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Again, it is pretty close to impossible to completely remove the Player's abilities and tactics from the game, without reducing it to a simple "let's roll the dice, and the one who rolls the lower number types /die" type of combat. If this happens, I am 100% sure that I will leave Planeshift, and so will many other of our most active RPers.
Roahn is completely right, I along with many others will leave if this happens, sorry but hey
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What is SO BAD about making dueling equally dependent on player skill?? ... when playing the only sub-game in PS depends solely on the player-skill, tactics, etc?
Why don't we have a lockdown on RP too... because that depends on the players OOC acting capabilities!?
Same argument!?!
Making use of player-skill AND acting-ability makes the game more fun and exciting AND interesting, respectively... what's so bad about that??
Whatever your reasoning.. whatever your justification... plenty of people are extremely disappointed by this whole situation... their fun has been spoiled by what they see as a backward step for the pvp side of the game... something that made PS unique in a good way has been spoiled in their (and my opinion).
No offense intended, we're just disappointed.
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Datruth is better off being ignored most of the time, he does his name too much credit in his own eyes. :P
As for dueling being dependent on player skill .. nothing against it. however making it dependent on equipment and hardware practically always comes together with that and I do have something against this. Why? Because then the one with the more expensive hardware has an advantage.
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This is why a lot of players don't like these forums, and I imagine why a lot of the developers remain silent as well. Many people here like antagonizing each other and never enjoy being told that their posting methods are less than agreeable. Maybe if you change your attitude, you will see your opinion and your voice welcomed a lot more. And maybe then others will allow you to speak for them.
shakila you are wrong, MANY players like and use these forums
and ya know what majority of PS active rpers...duelers...players will agree
old combat system ruled
who cared about lags, we were all friends OOC about it
Its alot more fun
this game is in its beggining
lets make it better
we are trying
GET USED TO IT! :)
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/me hands every dueler a set of dice. X-/
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Datruth, I noticed that you have a habit of being very hostile and aggressive when someone disagrees with either your opinion or your posting manner, and my personal suggestion would be to lighten up.
I think it is interesting that Datruth was being hostile and aggressive with Shakilai without provocation, Shakilai pointed this out, then Datruth posted another two screens full of hostility and aggression.
Let's stop with the personal attacks and discuss this dueling/character vs. player skill thing with a bit of politeness.
Thanks!
-Roahn
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hardware doesnt matter zan in the truth of it, play the game, my PC isnt the best but I know where the game is less lag and more of it, its a fun game, but dont focus on the bad side because you dont want to be at a disadvantage because of your computer, what about other people? what if their computers are okay, thats good right? let them have their fun, Im telling you a month and a half ago I came into PS and found dueling awesome, got into RP and enjoyed it
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/me hands every dueler a set of dice. X-/
Roahn sees that Gharin has challenged him to a duel. Roahn clicks "Yes" to accept the duel.
Roahn quickly rolls a 20 sided die, and groans as a 6 come up. He waits with some trepidation to see what Gharin will roll...
-Roahn
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Gharin rolls a one and knowing Roahn can't hit and run (cheating apparently) he stabs his-self for Roahn. :lol:
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Roahn watches Gharin stab himself, then stands above Gharin's body, proud that he rolled a higher number than Gharin. "Victory is mine!"
-Roahn
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hardware doesnt matter zan in the truth of it, play the game, my PC isnt the best but I know where the game is less lag and more of it, its a fun game, but dont focus on the bad side because you dont want to be at a disadvantage because of your computer, what about other people? what if their computers are okay, thats good right? let them have their fun, Im telling you a month and a half ago I came into PS and found dueling awesome, got into RP and enjoyed it
Volunds right, if it was all about hardware i'd win nearly all my duels.
That's not it though.
It was about skill plain and simple.
Not who clicked the fastest.
The fastest usually lost.
And the one who was most accurate succeeded.
/me hears
zan whispering something
What'd he say? I'm too busy ignoring him.
Maybe if he'd stop spitting Bs and answer some questions(see weapons price thread) i'd listen to him more often.
And as for roahn... i hate him, but he made a good point, to stop argueing with each other, and address the issue.
I must say, that Shakilai started it by saying we were moaning and whining.
/me rolls the dice..... error*.... oh well :( :lol: :woot:
~~Datruth
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Change is always tough.
The devs felt they had a good reason for making changes to combat. Whether I agree with their reasons or not doesn't really matter at this point.
I have tried dueling under the new changes. If it was really chance then I should have won 50% of the time. From what I saw I could have a fair impact on the outcome. Is it as satisfying as the old way? No.
The devs are human, I'm sure they would rather hear if there is anything positive from this new system and constructive feedback than hear the sky is falling. How often has anyone ever found this a successful strategy when faced with change?
I'd say give it a month and really test it. Or just go sit in the tavern and complain and stay out of everyone else's way.
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hardware doesnt matter zan in the truth of it, play the game, my PC isnt the best but I know where the game is less lag and more of it, its a fun game, but dont focus on the bad side because you dont want to be at a disadvantage because of your computer, what about other people? what if their computers are okay, thats good right? let them have their fun, Im telling you a month and a half ago I came into PS and found dueling awesome, got into RP and enjoyed it
Maybe you have a point .. I still think hardware matters somewhat though. Not that I claimed that my hardware sucks .. it did for a little bit with the Nvidia problems PS was having but that's mostly fixed. I was mainly thinking about people with not so fast computers.
Either way this whole mudslinging is leading absolutely nowhere so I'm out of here.
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The devs are human, I'm sure they would rather hear if there is anything positive from this new system and constructive feedback than hear the sky is falling. How often has anyone ever found this a successful strategy when faced with change?.
There's something positive, before combat was based on timing and luck, now it's based only in luck. The best thing against this "hit and run" would be to create some kind of "Attack of Opportunity" against anyone who tries to run from fighting that will give an extra attack for the other duelist(Realistically if you turn your back and run or if you just stop blocking the attacks and focus on running you will become vulnerable to your enemy).
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For the love of good please re-institute the old system....please.
Please.
One thing Devs OBVIOUSLY did not consider. In static toe to toe system, daggers will ALWAYS win. You just removed the impetus to use any weapons but daggers now. Their 1.4 speed will always ensure first hit in any static non-mobile duel.
Always.
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Gharin rolls a one and knowing Roahn can't hit and run (cheating apparently) he stabs his-self for Roahn. :lol:
You can do better than that, just use a sword, Gharin, any sword. The only viable weapon now is a pair of sw daggers along with the corresponding skills. That combination is now virtually invincible. In fact, why not change the name to DaggerShift (tm) and just eliminate all weapons except for daggers and long range weapons.
So much for the suggestion that new combat system somehow "emphasizes" character skills.
It in fact destroys it completely.
Eila
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Gharin rolls a one and knowing Roahn can't hit and run (cheating apparently) he stabs his-self for Roahn. :lol:
You can do better than that, just use a sword, Gharin, any sword. The only viable weapon now is a pair of sw daggers along with the corresponding skills. That combination is now virtually invincible. In fact, why not change the name to DaggerShift (tm) and just eliminate all weapons except for daggers and long range weapons.
So much for the suggestion that new combat system somehow "emphasizes" character skills.
It in fact destroys it completely.
Eila
It was an uncomplete and partial change that caused more problems from the previous and already flawed one than solved. At least on the previous one you could have a chance of defeating someone with daggers using short swords, although this victory would depend fully on player skills. This current system ignores player skills, but emphasizes player's luck
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seems like the duels will be done the same way as they are in other, lesser, RPGs such as silk road, no skill, only levels. tis a sad sad day indeed.
Instead of assuming how duels will be done in the future, and giving only examples of what you would not like, are there any ideas how it should be done? How would you like to balance player and character skills? Would you like a system relying on how quick you can press a button or how well you could time an action? Could you live with a system where there are less time critical actions, such as selecting which tactic to use (more than offensive/neutral/defensive)? Would you mind there being an advantage to having trained part of many things influencing a fight?
If you go for purely player skill, would you also want other abilities to be character skill independent? How would you balance things.
@Datruth (post to far back to quote):
You seem so sure the vast majority agrees with you. That may be true for the majority of players complaining here, or of all duelers, I don't know. I do know many players will skip a thread that grows this long in a day and gets to a 'me too'/'me not' point. Do not assume to know what all other players think.
That said, it is clear I am more for the character skill side. However, as long as this does not result in an interesting fight (because lack of balance, animation) I do not mind it depending on player skill to make it a bit more interesting. And if in the end it will in some way depend on player skill so more people like it, fine with me. However, I am against moving back in development, just because the state at the moment is not to everyones liking (or the liking of a single person stating his liking is everyones :) ).
My idea of how it would be in the end, is possibly selecting tactic (run more or less, attack or defend, use a special school of fighting) based on what you know are your skills, and how you estimate your opponent. And you may change tactic during a fight (which may take minutes). The outcome of the fight would depend on these tactics, your stats, many skills, and some randomness. And of course this would be shown in a fabulously animated fight that would make your adrineline go up, while you are thinking, is my tactic working, should I change it.
ALthough choosing tactic seems to contradict character skill, since your character has related skills, you could assume (s)he knows when to use them.
Just my idea, and it is a looooooooooong way from being implemented :)
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Let me put down the ludicrious rules people
-Dagger first hit, Silverweaves ONE HIT DUEL
-Timing is thrown off completely, cancel attack and that cuts out other shortcuts for magic, potions etc.
-Roll a dice, its probably a better chance
-If you dont like these, to bad, maybe your voice will be heard in the next decade or so [im just kidding]
-noobs with a silverweave pair can kill a maxed all stat hardcore experienced player in a hit without player skill
-No more sneak attacks, face your opponent and have a nice old fashion joust
Have fun ladies and gentlemen!!!
*edit*
If you go for purely player skill, would you also want other abilities to be character skill independent? How would you balance things.
@Datruth (post to far back to quote):
You seem so sure the vast majority agrees with you. That may be true for the majority of players complaining here, or of all duelers, I don't know. I do know many players will skip a thread that grows this long in a day and gets to a 'me too'/'me not' point. Do not assume to know what all other players think.
yes lanarel we want a balance a compromise, it should be BOTH player skill and character skill, so all are included and everyone has fun, majority planeshift population wants both and is in love with player skill,it gives you pride and a chance to get better
[ Please avoid making one post right after the other in the same thread. Just "Modify" your first post to add more information. --Karyuu ]
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I'm not against change, it's good idea to do changes in combat because the old was bad, but this new is .. vengeance sorry but worse. Reason? Continual stance makes it pure random who hits or not and I tried to use stop attack stance what worked better (I'm happy that instant hit isn't there anymore) but 'wall' or 'teleport' bug remind, so fix was only on instant hit and to ruin idea. I accept that devs don't like people fighting in hit&run style but it was logical way outgoing from syste, I'm sure that people will find sme way on this system and again they will do the same [actualy I already fought against npcs in hit and run way and it's same, so you only ruied duels].
Why I'm leaving? not cause of change but cause of respond of dev team on players opinions. I was recomended to leave if I don't like the change, so I left. Sorry Talad but this game will never be linux of mmorpg if developement will work this way, noone know what are people working on, noone knows what changes are going to happend. This game is like others proprietary games, but it's just free and you can compile it.. whey!!! Anyway I hope that you won't stop, it's hard to be dev, you always have to listen to people weeping about changes...
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Socia, The game itself is proprietary . Only the engine is GPL.
There's little difference between freewares and this Game(as a design) besides the fact the source code is open.
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I haven't seen a single dev reply in this thread and tell you that you should leave if you don't like the change. There have only been player responses so far.
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She wasn't on about the forum she was talking 'bout IRC ;)
@Socia re-consider please we will miss you if you don't return [and the message you left on guild got cut-off ::)]
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What happened on IRC?
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Easy to guess:
"Suck it up, you're testers!"
or:
"The dev team and Talad do whatever they wish, if you don't like, leave. It's their game, not yours"
or anything on those lines
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That sounds like it would come from other players, though.
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silkroad online FTW!!
got five spaces open in my guild sparta server!!!
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You want something useful and constructive. I'll say it again..
- The attack-flooding could have been resolved with a client-side timer to stop attacks being sent to the server.
- The not being able to attack behind oneself is considered good by quite a few of the experienced duellers.
- The fact that the attack-flooding has stopped has helped reduce lag a little as well as sort out the 'pushback' bug.
===
That's the positive/constructive.
But the auto-repeat-attack, the inability to attack to the side (at least) and how this complicates PVP, especially making timing awkward are all negative points according to a majority of those I'd consider keen and active duelers. It's taken a large part of the player-skill element out, the bit that made dueling an artform almost... and made it exciting for those that were experienced in it.
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I haven't seen a single dev reply in this thread and tell you that you should leave if you don't like the change. There have only been player responses so far.
Wanna know why? Cause they made a mistake and there is no excuse, no backdoors, no loopholes.
WANT THE ANSWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HERES your answer:
GET rid of Venge's Crap and Revert back to the old system, done.
No offence.
Anyone Agree?
~~Datruth
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Dude, seriously - why don't you try posting without any hostility here? There are people who made some really good posts (Lanarel especially) and then I see you spazzing out, and it just completely turns me off from wanting to listen to what you have to say. How can you post what you post, and then say "no offence"?
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Okay, so does the devs plan to have a fighting system, relatively (or more than relatively) compareable to star wars KOTOR in the end? If you dont know KOTOR; or how the fights there looked like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWv8QjZJnAA
If you have seen this video, you might think "yea, those fights looked nice and realistic" but let me tell you, I have played KOTOR I&II, it was a nice RPG, but that was about it: "nice". The fights in KOTOR looked really cool IMO and some of them took a few minutes in which you could enjoy the nice movements of your character, but, you havent done much, to make the fights look like this. If you told your character to attack just once, by clicking one simple button, the game repeated your command, until the fight was over, or until you decided to do something else (like using the force, throwing grenades, whatever) The fact is, if you wanted, you could go and make yourself a cup of tea in the meantime of the fight, because, due to the repeatedly autoattack (compareable to the one PS has now) the game did all the actions FOR you, it wasnt really YOU, who made the fights, nor was it you, who made them look that nice and real. Like i said, I liked KOTOR, but I was so bored, due to this fighting system, i played all my party members simultanously and told them, what action to do next, in order to have something to do, during a fight. Now, here in PS, if the combat system would be like the one in KOTOR in the end, reduced to only one player to steer around, there wouldnt be much more fun in fighting or dueling, than to choose a simple tactic, by clicking a button every now and then, and to watch the game doing the fight for you. If that is really, what PS is about to be like in the end, im not sure, if many players, including me, would have so much fun in dueling, like they would have, by letting the PLAYER fight, and NOT the game.
Just my two tria
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Dude, seriously - why don't you try posting without any hostility here? There are people who made some really good posts (Lanarel especially) and then I see you spazzing out, and it just completely turns me off from wanting to listen to what you have to say. How can you post what you post, and then say "no offence"?
Dude how long have you played this game for?
Do you even know the dueling we're talking about? Did you take part in it?
If not, then this might not be the right discussion for you.
It's the equivelent of taking a person, stopping them from running and walking, and crawling, and going through PS.
That'd be hell bro, it'd take forever to get anywhere.
Exactly where we are at with dueling.
And Rongar is right, we don't want to copy Kotor and the boring clicking action.
This system doesn't accomplish anything, neither player skill, or computer skill, no one duels simply.
~~Datruth
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Well I to have decided not to play much anymore, not because i've spit my dummy out over a new system, I in-fact expected it one day. But in all honestly the system is the blandest i've ever seen and there is no fun involved. I really hope it improves sooner rather than later. I'll be all RP from here on out when i'm on PS afterall that seems to be what the Devs are striving for. If so remove /challenge and all stat/skills and just RP.
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But Rongar this is RP game so why are you even fighting anything?
LoL i love that line.
If this is only a RP game why in the Sam Hill do we even have skills to train a dueling sytem or monsters too fight.
We are all testers right?
DOn't the Devs want player opinion to make the best game?
Well my opinion is this new system is :thumbdown:
Fix it :thumbup: :devil: :devil:
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Datruth: There's no need to be so condescending to me - I play the same game you do, and I've been around for a very long time. My forum registration date is nothing. All I'm asking for is for people to chill out and not post as though steam is coming out of their ears, or to act as if it's the end of PlaneShift.
Personally I think leaving the game just because of a change that has just been introduced and isn't even set in stone, is a very stupid thing to do.
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or just get pens, paper and dice... and lets meet up on IRC!! ;)
Seriously though, before we start reacting... let's give the devs a chance to respond officially.
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PLAYER fight, and NOT the game.
Just my two tria
Sorry.. I have to disagree...
In my opinion should GAME fight... cause its RPG, where depends on character's skills, not on players.
Its not realistic, when weak character, but skilled in PvP kills someone trained, just cause OOC reasons and player's PvP knowlidge.
For player's skills are here 3D shooters games...
Just my opinion...
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You can do better than that, just use a sword, Gharin, any sword. The only viable weapon now is a pair of sw daggers along with the corresponding skills. That combination is now virtually invincible. In fact, why not change the name to DaggerShift (tm) and just eliminate all weapons except for daggers and long range weapons.
So much for the suggestion that new combat system somehow "emphasizes" character skills.
It in fact destroys it completely.
Eila
Oh GEE Eila, it's almost as if it's a BAD IDEA to fight someone if they're an expert in daggers and their daggers are REALLY SHARP AND POINTY! HOW UNREALISTIC!
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Oh GEE Eila, it's almost as if it's a BAD IDEA to fight someone if they're an expert in daggers and their daggers are REALLY SHARP AND POINT! HOW UNREALISTIC!
I don't think you got what Eila meant somehow, or in-fact that you even care.
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You know what, i doubt the community will do anything.
We could have 100 people scream to revert it back, and it wouldn't happen.
But lets proove that the vast majority of people want it reverted:
http://www.petitiononline.com/PSDuel/petition.html
If you want the Dueling system fixed back to the way it was, be sure to sign that petition.
~~Datruth
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We don't do petitions, sorry :)
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I don't think you got what Eila meant somehow, or in-fact that you even care.
Silverweave daggers were already the best weapons, and I don't think YOU get what I meant. If you're really good with daggers, and if you have really good daggers, then it's only right that you're very dangerous. This is no the problem Eila suffers from. The problem now is that there's no way to protect yourself from a devestating one hit kill from a dagger, but that will change in the future as armor is further developed.
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You don't have to "do" petitions Karyuu..
But surely the community can "do" petitions if they wish... they can then gauge how much player opinions matter to you, the devs and the GMs.
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You don't have to "do" petitions Karyuu..
The dev-team can just continue to ignore the players if they wish... it seems to increasingly be becoming a trait.
That's exactly what it's there to prove, if karyuu had actually read my post....
Here it is for her to glance at again:
We could have 100 people scream to revert it back, and it wouldn't happen.
Did you read that karyuu?
You only further backed up my point by saying, we don't do petitions.
Thank you for that, now go do some dev work, that's very important, and doesn't waste your time, that can't wait.
~~Datruth
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If you're going to continue being an ass to us, we're going to continue ignoring you :) Just a FYI.
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Gm's dont seem to hear us and I hope their is a compromise.
This seems to be quite a common mistake. Gm's are do not have the creative liberties to alter the game in anyway. We are NOT responsible for the games changes. We volunteer our time to help police the game so that the Dev's have more time to work on the game and it's coding, bug fixes, etc. We are regular players with an extra title and a few extra commands to help us deal with problematic players who do not follow the game rules.
As for the Dev's, they DO listen. No matter how much the player base whines that they do not. Wouldn't you be interested in what people had to say or suggest if they were playing a game you created? Just because the game doesn't change fast enough to fit your needs, does not mean that they don't hear you or your suggestions. Here are two examples of them listening (1) Pets - Players requested them and guess what, they were added. (2) More emotes - As of the new client they are now implimented. To top it off there are plenty. Now what should be proof to you players that the Dev's do hear you, is the past client releases. There are many things implimented in these releases that show the Dev's have heard your requests. Come on people, it isn't as bad as you make it out to be!
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Hi everyone. I know that this seems like a long post, but I’ve made my points using very few words. It's actually a very quick read. I encourage you to read through this if you want more insight into what the other side of the argument really is.
I miss the old PS generation and you know who you are, whoever is left, anyway.
You are not the old PS generation. I've been here for two years and I'm not even a part of the old PS generation.
Note to the Pro-RP-Only crowd…
I'm anything but a Pro-RP-Only person. I duel a lot, like I said in my earlier posts. And I fully embrace the new system.
Ver 03018 has taken the very STRENGTH of PS, the absolutely FANTASTIC mobile combat...
The strength of PS is its emphasis on roleplaying. Dueling is a relatively new thing to PS.
ANYONE that wants to learn the basics of dueling shoot me a /tell in game anytime, and i'll gladly teach you.
I duel a lot and I’m good at it. I also hated the style of hit and run dueling, I found it horribly OOC.
Hit and run attacks are lame. It's cheating for all the reasons I've given in my other posts: You're exploiting certain mechanics of the game to bypass other mechanics of the game. And it's not "realistic", not even slightly.
Cebot is a fantastic RPer and one of the top duelists.
Cebot is anything but a fantastic RPer. He just goes around challenging people and then he calls them a coward in /shout when they decline. He's annoying. Even more annoying than I am.
I think whats at play is laziness…
The RPers know how to duel.
This new system has solved one problem and replaced it with another one: There is a lack of skill now, when it comes to dueling, and that was it's biggest promoter, the skill needed to be good.
This new problem of yours is not a problem at all. The overpowering influence of OOC player skill WAS the problem, and now it's been greatly reduced.
There was always the OOC /tell good duel.
Crap like that is disruptive to the in-character atmosphere. If you want to tell them something, just stand over their body and say "Well fought, friend." or something.
It is unfortunate, Dueling will become pawnage rather than a sport/art form.
Art? You mean having the best ping?
This current system ignores player skills, but emphasizes player's luck.
Not true. "Luck" is determined by the skills of your character. It's only right for the chances between two equally matched characters to be 50-50.
GET rid of Venge's Crap and Revert back to the old system, done.
You mean like when there was no combat in the game at all, and people just stood around and chatted with one another?
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We could have 100 people scream to revert it back, and it wouldn't happen.
But lets proove that the vast majority of people want it reverted:
http://www.petitiononline.com/PSDuel/petition.html
~~Datruth
<sarcasm>
Ooh, wow! That's proof! FIVE people signed it!
</sarcasm>
Ya, five people plus you throwing insults at everyone that disagrees with your point of view will surely make things happen. Not.
-Roahn
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These changes happened because players asked for them to happen. The devs did this because they are listening to us, not because they're ignoring us.
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Dude Zanzibar, you don't even know cebot.
You almost NEVER log on, and never talk to the community.
And yet you say cebot's annoying.... where do you get this from?
You've lost all credibility in my eyes bro.
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And roahn, it just opened right now, in 1 minute 5 sigs, don't act like a n00b.
~~Datruth
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Five signatures and they are already being faked? That's awesome :) We will definitely give in to your demands now that we know you're serious! Gee golly!
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As much as I signed it... because I do prefer the old system, I can't stand by DaTruth's posts..
I think the changes are a mistake... but we're likely to achieve more towards fixing the issues the update has caused by being polite and clearly explaining things...
Harassing them endlessly may achieve something BUT being rude or offensive will not. So just keep complaining... and complaining... and complaining... but don't sink to insults or rudeness... it will NOT add any credibility to our argument.
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Five signatures and they are already being faked? That's awesome :) We will definitely give in to your demands now that we know you're serious! Gee golly!
Lol who faked?
What is wrong with that thing sitting above your shoulders karyuu.
Did your parents teach you nothing but how to lie?
Who faked?
God, sometimes you just irratate me to death. :thumbdown:
~~Datruth
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Maybe you should go read the signatures :)
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/8789/0009nk4.gif)
Look, if you want to have something done, stop being a jackass.
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Roahn we know you have no love lost for Datruth but being sarcastic like that is just being an idiot an ruining the thread.
Let's stick to discussing the topic not everyone picking at each others throats like morons.
@Kary that's my sig it was a test because my first attempt was denied.
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Maybe you should go read the signatures :)
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/8789/0009nk4.gif)
Look, if you want to have something done, stop being a jackass.
THAT'S GHARAN!!!!
I told him to go sign it, and he signed it as that, cause he was busy, If you don't belive me ask him yourself.
Don't accuse people and start making up Stuff karyuu.
You could have just simply asked, whose that, and gharan would have told you right away, me, him, and chaz are on msn right now, laughing our asses off at you.
~~Datruth
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Dude Zanzibar, you don't even know cebot.
Yes I do.
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Because of course you can sign as anything you want with a petition and still say that it's credible! lollerskates! :)
A lot of people have made really good points in this thread (thank you!) but others just have their heads stuck where the sun don't shine. And it's a real pity.
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I duel a lot and I’m good at it. I also hated the style of hit and run dueling, I found it horribly OOC.
You duel a lot? I have been playing for over a year, and I have never seen you practice in the DR. I have seen you duel two noobies one time, long ago, and both times, you used potions to boost your stats.
You say you are good at dueling? I found two threads here in the forums about two of your duels. In one, you lost to a weaker character named Quittaa who killed you with only magic, and you called her a cheater for killing you with magic:
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=23387.0
In the second, you fought Drahlian. She hit you five times with her Silverweaves, each one a killing blow to one not hopped up on potions, before you finally got in one hit with you dagger, doing super-human strength due to potions:
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=23388.0
I'm just curious what you compare yourself to when you say you duel "a lot" and that you are good at it...
-Roahn
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Yeah Zanz I seen you noob challenging a few days ago on the Plaza yet when someone your level approached for one you quickly disappeared.
and btw I'm not trying to argue in anyway i'm just very disappointed in the new system that is all.
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I duel a lot and I’m good at it. I also hated the style of hit and run dueling, I found it horribly OOC.
You duel a lot? I have been playing for over a year, and I have never seen you practice in the DR. I have seen you duel two noobies one time, long ago, and both times, you used potions to boost your stats.
You say you are good at dueling? I found two threads here in the forums about two of your duels. In one, you lost to a weaker character named Quittaa who killed you with only magic, and you called her a cheater for killing you with magic:
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=23387.0
In the second, you fought Drahlian. She hit you five times with her Silverweaves, each one a killing blow to one not hopped up on potions, before you finally got in one hit with you dagger, doing super-human strength due to potions:
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=23388.0
I'm just curious what you compare yourself to when you say you duel "a lot" and that you are good at it...
-Roahn
;D
THATS HILARIOUS
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PLAYER fight, and NOT the game.
Just my two tria
Sorry.. I have to disagree...
In my opinion should GAME fight... cause its RPG, where depends on character's skills, not on players.
Its not realistic, when weak character, but skilled in PvP kills someone trained, just cause OOC reasons and player's PvP knowlidge.
For player's skills are here 3D shooters games...
Just my opinion...
Youre right, its a roleplaying game. so I want to be the one, who roleplays my character. Of course, I cannot control every action of my character, some things have to be controlled by the game itself, how good you block an attack, how hard you hit, your success in dodging... all this is related to your stats and skills and it also should be, since this is an RPG, a genre, which always demanded the use of those. but there are other games, like Elder Scrolls: Oblivion for example. You decide, when you slash, and you decide, when its time to rise your shield, you run around and use the environment to your advantage, etc... . Im not saying "hey, lets advice the devs to copy this or that game's combat system", but why not saying "lets lookout for elements, that have been successful and interesting in other games", in order to be constructive in this thread.
Personally I would like to hit my shortcut and slash, I would like to hit another one and rise my shield. Not implemented yet, i know :), but your weapons would do that job too and until shields are fully implemented to the game, it should also be possible, although not very realistic, to block an axe, with a dagger.
The best combat system, is a good-balanced one between character skill AND player skill, if you ask me, and the the previous PS combat system, did offer you that. If you werent good in one of the 2 skills, it might have happened, that youve been owned by another player. But both skills were trainable, and it was so much fun, to develop both of them and to reverse the outcoming of a fight against your "owner".
Again: It shouldnt be only one of the two skills, that dominate a combat system.
@Datruth: Please calm down mate, i know how you feel, a dream would come true, if we got the old system back, but getting excited like this, is not a solution to our current position, it just makes the people ignore you or laugh at you, for getting pissed that easily. Calm down, and lets talk, not argue. And I want to make this suggestion not only to Datruth, but to everyone posting here.
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What is wrong with that thing sitting above your shoulders karyuu.
Did your parents teach you nothing but how to lie?
Who faked?
God, sometimes you just irratate me to death. :thumbdown:
~~Datruth
Datruth,
I'm so glad to see that you have learned to be less aggressive, hostile and insulting now. Do you realize that when you throw insults and call names, people will ignore your arguments?
I believe Karyuu is refering to the one named "ewbhjfbweij" that signed your petition. I doubt that is a real person.
-Roahn
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Roahn read back and learn.
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I love how PlaneShift forums seem to be becoming a place for players to whine.
The old system isn't what the devs wanted. I don't see any point to discuss it further.
I understand the frustration but, at the same time, it's something you have to get used to.
As for the petition, sign your real name, it's how petitions work.
Try bringing a petition somewhere with a name like that on it and you will be laughed at and the signature ignored.
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Dude Zanzibar, you don't even know cebot.
Yes I do.
Don't lie, if you know him so well, tell me how many times you've seen him in game, and how many times you've spoken to him.
But sadly he's right, Zanzibar, you were never a good duelist, and so you are bitter about dueling all together.
You hardly go in game as it is.
And you want us to take your in game experience? What experience?
OH and roahn, that's Gharan, believe it or not i don't care.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Because of course you can sign as anything you want with a petition and still say that it's credible! lollerskates! Smiley
Not everyone does that karyuu, some of us have a sense of morals and ethics....
A lot of people have made really good points in this thread (thank you!) but others just have their heads stuck where the sun don't shine. And it's a real pity.
Stop speaking to yourself in the third person.
~~Datruth
[ Edited out the revealing of someone's alts. This is against the forum rules. --Karyuu ]
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The more of an ass you are, the closer I am to locking this thread :)
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Woohoo lock it down 10 pages already LOL
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Please don't lock it Kary.
Can we all stop the childish comments PLEASE!!!
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oops 11 pages and why am i even posting i dont even play no more \\o//
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Gharan, you know I respect you. But this thread will just keep reverting to a flame war/childish idiot hangout.
The idea of the game is that it is Roleplaying to the extreme, therefore, the duel system should depend almost exclusively on Player stats not player skills. That's what is going on.
You may disagree with it, but it's the devs game and it's what they want.
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The more of an ass you are, the closer I am to locking this thread :)
Didn't i tell you to stop speaking in the third person? You're gonna need pills for that i guess.
PS = Censorship
Stalin= Karyuu
Watch the lock friends.... It was good, but our words mean nothing.
If you want change, sign the petition:
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?PSDuel&1
Maybe talad will listen to us.
~~Datruth
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Hi again everyone,
It's too bad that things got so ill spirited. I have a few things to say in my personal defense:
i. I duel a lot and I am a regular in game, but "Zanzibar" is not the name of any of my characters save one that I used for a mere two days for a specific RP storyline.
ii. I am in fact very skilled with the old style of dueling. Despite that, I still frown upon the practices that were common before the update.
iii. Quittaa was not a weak character, and yes she did kill me using the energy arrow spell. She attacked me from the other side of the plaza. I did not mean to kill Drahlian; I only fought back when she refused to yield.
iv. I didn't fight Cebot because I see his aggression as OOC and I don't want to support that behavior. I do fight and challenge high-level characters every so often, especially if my character is cornered such that it is unrealistic for me to escape an attack.
v. I do in fact know Cebot from RPing with him in game and from watching him interact with others.