PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: zanzibar on March 06, 2007, 09:41:30 pm
-
Edit: Under the moon's post is a must read. Here is the link: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27959.msg321044#msg321044
***
Everyone who was playing in Molecular Blue was given a "ring of the past" which raises all their character stats by 20. I think that's great. I don't think there's a reason to give any more of the rings out, and I don't see any reason to take the rings out of the game.
Right now, it's pretty easy to max out your character. I'm not sure how long it would take, but it would definately take much less than two years. So it's possible to create a character and then in relatively little time make that character as powerful as any other character in the game.
So let's create a character stat that reflects how long you've been in the game! It would have a similar effect as rings of the past, and it could even be used to make certain weapons "Heros only". So there might be a sword or helm or hammer that you can only wield if you've been playing for a certain period of time. You might have powerlevelled your character, but it won't matter because you haven't been around long enough.
What led me to think about this is how several characters have returned all around the same time who I used to have contact with including Amheh, Sirunie, and others. A higher "Hero" stat would reflect the lore or reputation surrounding such characters - something that transcends and survives changing faces in the playerbase.
It should not matter if your character is good or evil, since there can be legends of any affiliation. Monsters could also have status as heros or legends. Certain spells might not work on targets with a legendary status which is too high or too low. So there are a lot of possibilities.
-
Great idea, Zanzibar! I mulled this over some, and I must say that many of the old players do not get recognition, and it would be nice to have a sort of "role model" to look up to in the game for the newbs, and it would inspire more rping too.
Rping such as "hero quests", find a hero, locate the hero's sword, all sorts of fun stuff.
-
I think it is a great idea but should be based on more than just how long you've played. For example, if I create a character and then don't play for a few years then should I get this kind of status just because of my character creation date? Or even just that I maxed out my stats, sword and armor and have been around for a while. I don't think Legendary Status should be given just because I spent the last 2 years camping spawn.
I would think that you could weight it based on creation date of a character along with a minimum number of quests done and certain skills trained. Maybe even include a certain number of GM events in which the individual has participated.
-
I would think that you could weigh it based on creation date of a character along with a minimum number of quests done and certain skills trained. Maybe even include a certain number of GM events in which the individual has participated.
I thought about that, but I think it would be a bad idea. Training, questing, and doing GM events already reward your character with items and skills. The legendary status would be specific to how long you've been in game. Also, if it was available through quests, then people would do easy quests over and over and over again just to powerlevel their heroism stat - and that's exactly the kind of thing we want to avoid and not reward.
In some cases, it won't make sense because the character hasn't done anything in the time it's existed, but that disadvantage pales in comparison to the positive difference the stat would make for the game. Even then, if you haven't been in game for a year, it's assumed that your character was still alive, off doing something such as travelling or studying or wandering.
-
What if your character is a farmer?
-
What if your character is a farmer?
I do think there's something mystical about old folkies. :) Especially if they have "past lives"...
-
I don't know about weapons and such, but definetly some quests with great rewards.
-
/me applauds
Yes, I agree to something like that. We had allready discussed something like a "trustme vote" or judging system. The difficulty will be, that these skill should be well weightened to prevent people from bad voted cause they are representing bad gays (which is in fact well done and positive).
Maybe a skill like this could be placed under faction?
Some other factors, which could be interesting:
- Age
- Experience (Known Places / Solved Quests)
- Count of Kicks / Struck downs
I need to sleep some nights over this idea, but I like it very much.
-
I don't understand the IC reason for this.
When people leave, they usually RP that they've moved off the first level, or have died, or simply don't RP it at all and fade out of existence. Why would lying in a grave gradually make you more of a hero...?
And even if it did, why would having a few legends floating around suddenly make you able to do certain things and carry around certain weapons other people can't?
I understand the sentiment, but It seems kinda OOC to me...
-
- Experience (Known Places / Solved Quests)
This would encourage powerlevelling of the stat.
- Count of Kicks / Struck downs
By this, I assume you mean that if you get in trouble with a GM, then your stats are affected. I think this is both inappropriate and OOC. A GM should only take away your items and stats if you cheated to aquire them. Given that the GMs aren't perfect human beings who never make mistakes, I don't think that this should be a factor.
I need to sleep some nights over this idea, but I like it very much.
I'm glad.
I understand the sentiment, but It seems kinda OOC to me...
If you understand the sentiment, then you must understand the in character reasons for it. It has to do with flavour, ingame history, the idea of lore, and it's a reflection of how long your character has been around and how much opportunity your character has had to make a difference. These things are all IC.
-
Uh, why? Why would you possibly want a stat simply because you've had an account for x amount of time. I mean, I've had a char since 2005, but I only really started playing in 2007. So I should get 'hero' status because of that? Mrmph... I've got another, similar idea which would have similar effects but I'll create another thread for it.
-
Uh, why? Why would you possibly want a stat simply because you've had an account for x amount of time.
I'm pretty sure I answered that in the first post of the thread. You can disagree with the reasons, but you can't deny that they exist.
I mean, I've had a char since 2005, but I only really started playing in 2007. So I should get 'hero' status because of that?
Yes. First off, you could pretend that your character has been doing something all that time; If not, you're free to delete the character and start a new one. Secondly, even if your character doesn't deserve it, giving your character a bonus is worth it if it means giving 'more deserving' characters a bonus.
Mrmph... I've got another, similar idea which would have similar effects but I'll create another thread for it.
I look forward to reading it.
-
If you understand the sentiment, then you must understand the in character reasons for it. It has to do with flavour, ingame history, the idea of lore, and it's a reflection of how long your character has been around and how much opportunity your character has had to make a difference. These things are all IC.
Not exactly. My great-grandma lived for 98 years, and in those 98 years she didn't gather even one hundredth of the fame Michael Jackson had by the time he was 12 :P
It's not about how long has been around, and you can't just say that even though you nor your character has had absolutely no part in the community for the last 2 years, that somehow your character has done 100 remarkable things (that no one's heard of until you come back and tell them OOCly) and is thusly more important than the leader of a prominent guild that's only been around for 1 year...
There's three main flaws:
1. Like I said, it doesn't make logical sense that legendary heroes just pop up all of a sudden after 2 years of no activity, without warning or pretense.
2. Save a free beer at the tavern, or maybe a flock of gushing fans, there's no advantages legendary/famous people really have. There certainly wouldn't be famous-person-only equipment that nobody else can wear. Though I can see NPCs being more likely to trust an important task to someone of legendary status... Still, that's flawed in itself, because...
3. It would be totally OOC, and totally stupid to have a whole bunch of 'legendary heroes' all traipsing around Harnquist. Most people have multiple characters - in some case as many as 7 or 8 - if you multiply that by the amount of people who've been around a few years (even those that stop in every so often to check up) that means there'll be a lot of so-called heroes running around. Probably more heroes than normal people.
Legends are legends because they're rare and amazing. If every other farmer/miner walking around has a handful of glorious stories surrounding him, it just defeats the purpose.
That's just the main ones. There's also some smaller things like the fact that ideals change with the times, and one person's 'hero' is another's 'terrorist', and also the fact that you can't compare the deeds of a miner to the deeds of a demon-slayer, etc.
-
...a "ring of the past" which raises all their character stats by 20.
Wow, i gues i won't be much wrong when i say the rings are becoming a legend, when you are saying that^^.
As about your idea, i don't like it at all. It strikes into realism too much.
Also, why the heck hero equipment is supposed to do something? Magical yes, but why the heck call it hero?
We had some heroes in our real history, leaders, generals - just 2 examples. What was so special about their armor? Besides it was crafted well and was giving them more charizma... i gues nothing more.
Some people liked to think of these armors/weapons as magicial and it's why i think you are assigning to hero title some magical properties... But where in real it was fairy tale, why should it be different in fantasy game? People are free to make such legends, but there is no reason for them to be true.
I just think that not only the title you are giving isn't best choice, but also what's behind it, strikes into consistency of the world too much. Why the heck if i want to give a "hero" weapon to some friend, he say he can't use it? Why not? Answer: because he did not play long enough. Very nice IC answer^^.
-
Also, what Niko said. That was kinda the point I was making in Flaw 2...
-
@emeraldfool:
i. Saying it's OOC doesn't make it OOC.
ii. It would go by how old the character is, not how old the account is.
iii. For some characters it won't make sense, but for the majority of characters and almost all active characters it will make sense and I think that the trade off is entirely worth it. Also, character which are returning after a long absense aren't simply "starting from scratch". They were active at one point and that does count for something.
iv. We're talking about something esoteric, transcendental, and mystical. According to the settings, each and every character has the potential to develope into a hero. Since the only characters who will really stick out anyway are the ones who are active, I don't think that you have anything to worry about.
-
Oh, and I forgot about my legendary mules :P
Hurmph, but anyways, I think older players do recieve a 'legend' bonus in a way. People are generally much more willing to help them out and such... and it seems to me that wealth is already too focused into a small percentage of older players in PS.
EDIT: Such as legendary Ehatihen, the Kran scared of Clackers!
-
For a character to have legendary status, what do they have to invest IC to acheive that status?
When I hear names mentioned in game and IC it doesn't have to do with that they have reappeared after years. You hear about achievments others have witnessed or their participation in more recent roleplay.
I disagree with the concept that it is better to accord legendary status to someone who may have been an obnoxiuos noob for two weeks and then show up 2 years later than to not give this to someone else.
-
We had some heroes in our real history, leaders, generals - just 2 examples. What was so special about their armor? Besides it was crafted well and was giving them more charizma... i gues nothing more.
Some people liked to think of these armors/weapons as magicial and it's why i think you are assigning to hero title some magical properties... But where in real it was fairy tale, why should it be different in fantasy game? People are free to make such legends, but there is no reason for them to be true.
We're talking about a fantasy game, so I think it's ok to have fantastic situations and ideas. Think about how armor is used in the Iliad, especially Achilles'. Think of how swords are used in the tales of King Arthur. Heck, even castle of the Winds had Thor's Helm and an Amulet of Kings.
Besides, we have weapons which you can only use if you have enough agility or intelligence. Why not have weapons you can only use if your character is of a certain age?
I just think that not only the title you are giving isn't best choice, but also what's behind it, strikes into consistency of the world too much. Why the heck if i want to give a "hero" weapon to some friend, he say he can't use it? Why not? Answer: because he did not play long enough. Very nice IC answer^^.
Instead of saying "Your character hasn't been around long enough", you could say "You aren't ready yet, but one day you will be" or "The sword will choose the right time for you to weild it. Trust its judgement.".
For a character to have legendary status, what do they have to invest IC to acheive that status?
Nothing. The assumption would be that if your character has been around for a while, then you've been doing things with it.
When I hear names mentioned in game and IC it doesn't have to do with that they have reappeared after years. You hear about achievments others have witnessed or their participation in more recent roleplay.
I often hear the names mentioned of people who have reappeared after long absenses. "Did you hear that Phinehas has returned?" and so on.
-
@emeraldfool:
i. Saying it's OOC doesn't make it OOC.
ii. It would go by how old the character is, not how old the account is.
iii. For some characters it won't make sense, but for the majority of characters and almost all active characters it will make sense and I think that the trade off is entirely worth it. Also, character which are returning after a long absense aren't simply "starting from scratch". They were active at one point and that does count for something.
iv. We're talking about something esoteric, transcendental, and mystical. According to the settings, each and every character has the potential to develope into a hero. Since the only characters who will really stick out anyway are the ones who are active, I don't think that you have anything to worry about.
1. If not OOC, it's at least a terrible act of god-modding to say you're character is better/more renowned than someone else's. If you play a 8 year old kid, then leave PS and come back 2 RL years later, will your 8-year-old kid (or say, 12-year-old, or however you want to play it) is more important than an adult character that hasn't been around as long (OOCly)?
2. What do you mean by that? What defines a character's age? Why should those with enough creative skill be punished for playing a child (if that's what you mean)
3. I'm not sure what you're referring to (whether these are new points, or rebuttals to my own ones are confusing me...), but like Niko said, Hero-only stuff doesn't make any realistic, IC sense...
4. There's easily 40% of the playerbase that's been with PS for over a year, in some cases even more. That means 40% of the interactive population are heroes. I know we're supposed to imagine that Yliakum's full of normal citizens, but regardless of that it diminishes the idea of heroism for those who truly deserve it (and haven't just registered an account a few years ago and decided to go play Runescape instead, got bored, then came back...)
-
@emeraldfool:
1. Think about a ring of the past. If you give it to a new character, then will that character be more powerful than everyone else? Not even slightly. The same is true here.
2. We're not talking about age -- we're talking about how long a character has been around. There's a difference.
3. Hero-only stuff makes perfect sense. It makes as much sense as a sword which can only be equipped if you have a high intelligence or agility stat. Not only does it make as much sense, but it would add more colour to the game because no amount of power levelling would allow you to use the item.
4. Who said that you'd be a hero after a year? And who said it would have to be so black and white? As far as your Runescape comment, see point number 1.
-
This starts to sound more like a legendary status as a civil service job.
It doesn't matter how well you do it, just how long you have held the position.
-
Well I suppose it shouldnt be a civil service, and an idea is it should only be awarded to those who have earned it with an act of bravery, and have been on for at least 2 years. Jut an idea that would narrow it down some more. 2 years could make some knowledgable, and legendary, heroes.
-
Such things should be based on the character actions in game, not on the time a player remained in Planeshift. Some people pass their whole lives without being famous, others are famous even as children.
Also there is nothing that really would fall on the category of "heroic quests" right now in PS, and once they are available, they should be not quests per se, but some unique types of GM Events that never happen twice. They should have several challenges ahead and dangers as well.
For me to become a famous hero your character should do something "heroic", like the examples below
1) Classic - Save many lives, a town, a region or the world from something provoked by an "evil". I.E.: Be the main responsible for leading/defending Yliakum first level against a mass invasion from the Stone Labyrinths, etc.
2) Populist(Grey area) - Improve the life conditions of the lower classes, and become some kind of "hero" in their view. I.E.: Making charismatic speeches and giving beggars and poor people aid to get a new life, etc.
To become an infamous and known villain your character should do a "great evil" like
1) Classic - Kill/Steal/Beat innocent people, destroy villages/cities/etc, take over a town and become its tyrant, etc.
2) Populist(Grey Area) - Exploit the ignorance of the lower classes for a selfish goal by promising them a better life among other rhetoric and demagogies, etc.
Although being a known villain means people would rally against your character thus it would not be an advisable path for a smart "evil" character.
-
Obviously the characters who are active in game would be in the best position to take advantage of the new stat.
If the stat can be altered by actions, powerlevellers will exploit the system. Plain and simple. Things would have to be highly regulated to prevent exploitation.
-
This might actually make sense if it resets to 0 every time your character dies and gets reduced whenever you do something unheroic like refuse a honorable duel or break a just law, other than that it is just silly.
-
This might actually make sense if it resets to 0 every time your character dies and gets reduced whenever you do something unheroic like refuse a honorable duel or break a just law, other than that it is just silly.
Bilbous, your ideas belong in a new thread.. They go against the reason for this wish.
There are many reasons why people would refuse a duel challenge. We all know what they are. It really doesn't need any explanation. And there's no way for the server to distinguish between an "honourable" duel (whatever that is) and whatever the alternative is. Unhonourable duel, I guess. Not that that really makes sense.
As far as it reseting if you die, that just makes no sense. The point of this is to reward people who have been a part of the community for a length of time. If it resets every time you die, then you're turning it into something completely different. If you see that added to the game, then start a new thread since it's a completely different idea.
-
Well perhaps you need a better name for it then because I've got a scar I've had for 40 years and there is nothing legendary or heroic about it but it does have longevity. Seriously I think that if you want to reward legendary characters for adhering to PS over the years it would be better to have the NPC's have some dialog about them and perhaps for really significant contribution a quest for some item they lost in days gone by.
By giving such characters a decided advantage in this way you are just creating a Leet Crew that would seem to go against the philosophy of the game.
-
This might actually make sense if it resets to 0 every time your character dies and gets reduced whenever you do something unheroic like refuse a honorable duel or break a just law, other than that it is just silly.
Bilbous, your ideas belong in a new thread.. They go against the reason for this wish.
Nope, this thread is fine for his statement. You just have to ask him to state his opinion as to why he believes those issues he has given should be related and should be a factor in your proposition to reward characters that have been around longer with something.
The "why?" rule.
-
Well perhaps you need a better name for it then because I've got a scar I've had for 40 years and there is nothing legendary or heroic about it but it does have longevity. Seriously I think that if you want to reward legendary characters for adhering to PS over the years it would be better to have the NPC's have some dialog about them and perhaps for really significant contribution a quest for some item they lost in days gone by.
If you would like to see that in game, then start a new thread and stop dragging this one off topic.
By giving such characters a decided advantage in this way you are just creating a Leet Crew that would seem to go against the philosophy of the game.
Care to elaborate?
Nope, this thread is fine for his statement. You just have to ask him to state his opinion as to why he believes those issues he has given should be related and should be a factor in your proposition to reward characters that have been around longer with something.
The "why?" rule.
No. Bilbous's wishes are different from the one this thread was created for, and so they belong in new threads not this one. Bilbous is dragging this thread off topic.
-
Basically I am disagreeing with the premise and trying to suggest ways that it might make it more acceptable to me. I have had the bilbous account nearly two years now and it has two other characters attached to it that together might have been in game a total of 24 hours, just a guess, but were created in the same month as bilbous. According to your plan -- from what I can tell -- they would qualify for nearly the same level of this stat as bilbous with whom I have logged hundreds of hours. This does not seem to make sense to me.
If the topic is your specific suggestion and nothing else I am against it (the suggestion) and it does not leave a lot of room for discussion. If the topic is how to reward players for sticking with PS and this is your suggestion, there is something to talk about. Since the former seems to be your desire, there is nothing more for me to say.
-
hmmm I like idea somewhat, but it is indeed strange if you look at it through IC eyes. I mean roleplay wise you're character has been around before you start playing it normally and we don't start playing the characters at the same age either. We don't all play characters that do heroic deed and we may even switch characters so often or powerlevel so much that almost noone has heard of them.
I feel you are wrong to say it's the same as inteligence when equiping a weapon. Although you might think it's strange that it would be a requirement you can point at it ICly becuase intelligence exists IC.
Also if you would be able to give it an ICexplanation I feel it would still havve to be more then just the time played. Perhaps you need to have done a quests aswell to gain heropoints and you can only gain one point per week you have played or something similar to that or have a week only count if you have a high enough avarage actually being in the game. Those don't sound to good solutions really but feel it should be more then just the character creationdate.
-
Basically I am disagreeing with the premise and trying to suggest ways that it might make it more acceptable to me. I have had the bilbous account nearly two years now and it has two other characters attached to it that together might have been in game a total of 24 hours, just a guess, but were created in the same month as bilbous. According to your plan -- from what I can tell -- they would qualify for nearly the same level of this stat as bilbous with whom I have logged hundreds of hours. This does not seem to make sense to me.
I've answered this concern several times in this thread. Such "inactive" characters, since they haven't been active in game, will not benefit as much from the stat since they won't have done what is necessary to obtain hero requirements. Since they haven't spent time levelling, their levels will be less than average. In essense, it doesn't make much of a difference. Where it does make a difference, you can invent some sort of backstory to justify it. And if you're completely unable to justify it, then just accept the tradeoff as well worth it.
@Garile: I mean no disrespect, but I've explained how it's IC several times already in this thread. Please read through the thread to find the answer to your concern. As far as getting a bonus from doing quests, I've already explained how that would lead to powerlevelling and why that would be extremely undesireable for this stat.
-
I'm sorry Zanzibar but that is no answer and you know it. Your answer is that you feel it would do more good then bad. That doesn't make it IC.
Also the idea of heroes and legends could be IC but I'm not talking about the idea it should represent but the mechanic you are chosing to represent this ingame and I haven't seen any explanation how that would be realistic. The measure of how long someone has been playing the character is an OOC measure plain and simple. A measure that has been pointed out is even OOC questionable about it's effectiveness to represent heroism.
-
I'm sorry Zanzibar but that is no answer and you know it.
If I knew it, then I wouldn't be saying otherwise.
Your answer is that you feel it would do more good then bad. That doesn't make it IC.
That was not my answer.
It has to do with flavour, ingame history, the idea of lore, and it's a reflection of how long your character has been around and how much opportunity your character has had to make a difference. These things are all IC.
Also the idea of heroes and legends could be IC but I'm not talking about the idea it should represent but the mechanic you are chosing to represent this ingame and I haven't seen any explanation how that would be realistic. The measure of how long someone has been playing the character is an OOC measure plain and simple. A measure that has been pointed out is even OOC questionable about it's effectiveness to represent heroism.
It wouldn't be realistic. It would be something of a more mystical nature.
-
It wouldn't be realistic. It would be something of a more mystical nature.
Well glad we agree atleast that it wouldn't be realistic to implement such a skill. Guess I only have to remind you then that the goal of PS is to make a realistic world.
It has to do with flavour, ingame history, the idea of lore, and it's a reflection of how long your character has been around and how much opportunity your character has had to make a difference. These things are all IC.
Looking past the fact that your selfquote is not an answer, I already said heroism as a concept might be IC but that the mechanic is not.
Look at it from a characters point of view.
Char A talks with Char B and sees Char C walking around with a heroshield.
Char A: Do you know that guy?
Char B: Uhm believe I saw him begging for money two year s ago but haven't seen him since.
Char A: So why can he wear that heroic shield then and I can not while I was the main savior of the three rogue invasion of Oja?
Char B shrugs not knowing what to say
With a quest you could say it is IC or with a GMevent you could say this becuase someone did something IC to earn it. You want to use an OOC measure what can't be explained IC and only OOC and so your plan is OOC. There is nothing mystic about that.
-
Well glad we agree atleast that it wouldn't be realistic to implement such a skill. Guess I only have to remind you then that the goal of PS is to make a realistic world.
A realistic world full of magic, giant one eyed rats, gods, and rock men. Not to mention giant flying bat-things and glyphs that channel strange energies.
It has to do with flavour, ingame history, the idea of lore, and it's a reflection of how long your character has been around and how much opportunity your character has had to make a difference. These things are all IC.
Looking past the fact that your selfquote is not an answer...
You asked a question that I had already answered. You then pointed at something else I said as the answer, however that was not the text relevant to your concern. So I quoted the relevant text.
I already said heroism as a concept might be IC but that the mechanic is not.
Look at it from a characters point of view.
Char A talks with Char B and sees Char C walking around with a heroshield.
Char A: Do you know that guy?
Char B: Uhm believe I saw him begging for money two year s ago but haven't seen him since.
Char A: So why can he wear that heroic shield then and I can not while I was the main savior of the three rogue invasion of Oja?
Char B shrugs not knowing what to say
With a quest you could say it is IC or with a GMevent you could say this becuase someone did something IC to earn it. You want to use an OOC measure what can't be explained IC and only OOC and so your plan is OOC. There is nothing mystic about that.
By your logic, all stats are OOC.
-
By your logic, all stats are OOC.
Why's that? I look back fondly on weight training with Trasok :)
-
I didn't say that I agree with her logic.
-
I'm not sure that you cought what I was getting at. IC my character went to Trasok who gave him some strength training. What did your char do with this system that has made him stronger? Been there? Last time I checked sitting around doing nothing tends to dull the mind and weaken the body.
-
Your logic is so flawed its not even funny that you are acting like mine is strange.
Ofcourse Strength points are OOC in the points themselves. Can we really be that exact in RL just by looking at someone? No ofcourse not. The point however is that that system is logic becuase there is a cause and effect. You train strength at a trainer --- > you get more points in strength representing you getting stronger ----> you can carry a heavy sword effectively if you have a certain strength.
Cause and effect makes the gamemechanic realistic. Your system is not becuase the cause is OOC. Playing it for ?? years. It has no IC cause but the effect is IC and no that is not logical. Specially if you couple it to a title like hero, becuase realisticly there should be an IC reason why people are going to call you a hero.
-
Your logic is so flawed its not even funny that you are acting like mine is strange.
Ofcourse Strength points are OOC in the points themselves. Can we really be that exact in RL just by looking at someone? No ofcourse not. The point however is that that system is logic becuase there is a cause and effect. You train strength at a trainer --- > you get more points in strength representing you getting stronger ----> you can carry a heavy sword effectively if you have a certain strength.
Cause and effect makes the gamemechanic realistic. Your system is not becuase the cause is OOC. Playing it for ?? years. It has no IC cause but the effect is IC and no that is not logical. Specially if you couple it to a title like hero, becuase realisticly there should be an IC reason why people are going to call you a hero.
In this case the cause is "the character exists" and the effect is "the character has existed". So unless having a character is OOC...
-
OOC wise, the character has been around for a few years. IC wise, the character has been around for 20+ years (going off the assumption that most characters are RPed as being around age 20 or so.)
You are trying to use an OOC time frame to base an IC reward off of.
In this case the cause is "the character exists" and the effect is "the character has existed". So unless having a character is OOC...
In this case, the character exists and has existed, just as every other character has. Unless you are RPing a newborn.
So everyone is a hero. So everyone should get the reward. Of course, I believe that some devs have had the opinion in the past that every character created by a player is considered a hero type player and that the NPCs will be the normal every day folk. Which explains why player characters leave the DR and NPC mobs do not. But thats a slightly different subject.
-
OOC wise, the character has been around for a few years. IC wise, the character has been around for 20+ years (going off the assumption that most characters are RPed as being around age 20 or so.)
You are trying to use an OOC time frame to base an IC reward off of.
It depends on how you look at it. If you think of the amount of real life time, then that can be interpretted as time the character has had an opportunity to make a ripple in the community or to do things in game. So if the character has been active, then the bonuses will be noticeable since the character will have higher stats and perhaps access to heroic items. That character will be differentiated from characters which have powerlevelled in a shorter period of time. Characters which are innactive will not notice as much of a benefit from the same bonus.
I've been answering all the questions, so here's a question for you guys: Let's say that it reaks of OOC. I don't think it does, but let's say it does. What other argument is there against it?
-
How do you propose to base which character "makes a ripple" base solely on a time of how long a certain character has been around? How do differentiate between two characters that have been around, one that plays a half hour or so every couple of days for 1 year, doing a bit of interacting, leveling some stats and skills as they go, as opposed to another that played 5-6 hours a day for a few weeks, maxed everything and quit, and now returns after being gone for a year?
Both have the same length of time they have been around. Both have similar hours played time. Both have similar stats and skills levels. Where they are different lies in the impact they made on the community. The one that simply logs in every so often and keeps coming back will be remembered much more than the one that was around for a few weeks and then suddenly vanished. One should get the reward for making a mark on IG world, the other not so much.
-
To be honest, I don't see the problem. My intention is for it to be a more mystical quality than anything political or rational, if that helps explain things.
-
Uhm... no it doesn't.
I don't see how it's mystical to make a beggar who has been online for a few hours in several years a hero all of a sudden. Thats not mystical thats just silly. You don't become a hero for just standing around doing nothing. A hero is someone known for his great deeds.
-
No.
This goes along the same lines as making someone to be more "heroic" because of their forum post-count. Doesn't make you any more special or credible. It only shows that you like to post a lot.
Commercial games might sometimes give some extra "social clothing" or "social items" for party events to old-timers because of a monthly subscription (so that being active doesn't matter, as long as you pay) but that's it. And this isn't a commercial game. :)
-
Is there the slightest doubt in your mind that this isn't the greatest idea ever conceived, Zanzi? :P
I mean, isn't there the possibility that everyone else might be on to something and you might have missed it? Or perhaps overlooked the importance of and/or degree of IC confusion this would cause (as Garile pointed out)?
Even geniuses make mistakes sometimes :P
Besides, disregarding everything else - How are you supposed to RP a legendary character if you're the only one who knows/has ever heard of these legends? In fact, you would be the only person who even knows this "legendary hero" exists, unless someone remembers you from ages back. But even then, they'll remember you as a commoner...
-
How is this explained ICly?
I have characters that are far older (as a character) and more worthy of 'hero'ness than the character I've created when I started playing, Zan. Rewards for player ancienty are quite OOC if you ask me. This doesn't mean there shouldn't be any rewards but the rewards shouldn't affect one's character. They could be 'useless' objects that can't be gotten or exchanged in any other way.
-
You all have made several good points that throw the original argument down the tube. However, maybe the hero status could be attained through a quest of sorts that is only "unlocked" by having been on for a minimum of say...100 hours, and stats are up to a certain level, and you have a vote of sorts by the people after doing the quest that propels you into the hero status, like a vote by some current heros, or gms maybe. just an idea.
-
Uhm... no it doesn't.
I don't see how it's mystical to make a beggar who has been online for a few hours in several years a hero all of a sudden. Thats not mystical thats just silly. You don't become a hero for just standing around doing nothing. A hero is someone known for his great deeds.
Have you ever seen (or read) King Lear? The Fool is perhaps little more than a beggar, but he is very wise and even heroic in his dedication to his master.
Perhaps "Heroism" is the wrong word and it should be called something like "Aura" instead. But then I'd have to rethink the IC justification of it.
You all have made several good points that throw the original argument down the tube. However, maybe the hero status could be attained through a quest of sorts that is only "unlocked" by having been on for a minimum of say...100 hours, and stats are up to a certain level, and you have a vote of sorts by the people after doing the quest that propels you into the hero status, like a vote by some current heros, or gms maybe. just an idea.
Again, this would reward powerlevellers. My idea is to find some way to reward people who have been around for a while simply for being around, and to have that reward built into the game itself rather than having items handed out at exclusive GM events. It has to be something which is unobtainable by powerlevelling or else it's pointless.
-
With all the back and forth I want to make sure I clearly understand the proposal.
As I understand it, you are advocating a special status(with the possibility of special items awarded) based solely on the the amount of time that has passed since a character was created.
There is no requirement that they have ever:
- trained a skill
- participated in any rp
- spent a minimum amount of time actually on line
- interacted with any other character
Am I missing anything?
-
Am I missing anything?
Nope, I think you got it.:)
The thing is that you can't really use numbers or quests or stats or trias to judge how much a player is roleplaying. So the assumption would be that most of the characters who have been around for a while and who are still around have been active and meaningful in some way. The people who are "undeserving" wouldn't affect much of anything since they wouldn't be in a position to really use the attribute.
-
Again, this would reward powerlevellers. My idea is to find some way to reward people who have been around for a while simply for being around, and to have that reward built into the game itself rather than having items handed out at exclusive GM events. It has to be something which is unobtainable by powerlevelling or else it's pointless.
Not exactly, just an idea, that is why I also proposed the voting idea, maybe it could be done my members of the community held in high regard, or something.
-
Surely you become a legend in game just like you do in real life. No game mechanics. You just do things that get people saying your name. Game mechanics for it would be pointless.
-
Not exactly, just an idea, that is why I also proposed the voting idea, maybe it could be done my members of the community held in high regard, or something.
That's a horrible idea for countless reasons. It's also been suggested several times before.... do a search if you want to know why it's such a bad idea.
-
First off, folks, you need to widen your definition of 'hero'. A hero is not someone who does the greatest of deeds, or is the mightiest. A hero is simply someone other people look up to for whatever their reason.
However, hero and 'legendary' are not the proper terms to be using here. What Zanzi is proposing is not based on being a hero, nor a legend. It is based on sticking with this game, despite the bumps and tumbles. It is based on seniority. I suggest something a little different.
Before anyone comments on that, let me explain. In most places you work, the longer you have been there, the more benefits you get. It does not matter if you are the floorsweep, or the big guy in the big leather chair. Every year, they can get a pay raise, extra vacation time, seniority bonuses, or many other things. The point is, you get rewarded for loyalty, and time spent. Does the humble floorsweep get the same rewards as the chairman? Not in the least. But, he does get something.
In MB to CB terms, this is the Ring of the Past. For the people who have stuck around for the two years since then, there has been nothing but watching newbies become as powerful as you (for the fighters), or being called a n00b yourself by the folks who have been around a week just because your character is not maxed out. This has happened to many of us, including me. My very first character was laughed at and killed by a person who had been playing for maybe a week (you may remember how that turned out ;) ). I had never trained, nor quested with this character. Would the outcome of the fight changed any if there was some way of seeing that "This character has been around for some time". No, not likely. But the mood would have.
Now, I have seen the arguments against this, and I dismiss them. Should players be rewarded for staying around? Yes. Does it have to be 100% in character? It can, but does not have to be. That argument is silly. GMs can hand out money, PP, and items for being in events, as they should. Now, where do these moneys, PP (especially PP), and items magically come from? Why, that would be the GMs OOC pockets.
Now we come to rewards. All players are not equal, so all rewards should not be equal. The player who spent a week powerleveling two years ago, then comes back now should not get the same reward as the character who has spent a few hours a week in the game for the same two years. A player who did nothing but chat should not get the same reward as the one who did every quest they could get their hands on. A character that has never left the tavern in two years should not get the same rewards as the character that has seen every nook and cranny there is to be seen. This, folks, is how you make it in character. The following is a list of -could be- rewards.
The weekend warrior from two years ago: Special shiny polish for all their armor. What does it do? Not much, just helps you stand out in a crowd.
The steady-as-you-go leveler of two years playing (non-quester): Nifty weapons and armor no one else can get. What do they do? A bit of stat boost here and there, but nothing great. Oh, and they also get the shiny polish. :D
Bah, this is too hard listing off things that way. Here it is laid out. You can get MULTIPLE rewards for being in each of these categories.
High level (anything): Nothing. You can get a high level in a week. The high level is its own reward.
One year (this means your character has existed for one year, not that you played it the entire time): Shiny polish for all your metal tools. Special clothing that looks just a little different then everyone else’s. NPCs may give you better prices. Note that you do not automatically get these things, they just become available. IC reason: NPC says "You have been around for a year now (ignoring the ridiculous timescale we have now), haven't ye? You must be getting bored with your old things. Say! I have just the things. Right this way."
Two years: Extra shiny polish, and clothing that stands out in a crowd. NPCs give you good deals. IC: Same as above.
Three years: Same polish and clothing, but you have access to items that no one else does. Not sure what kind of items, but nothing that drastically changes your stats. Perhaps training and item costs would go down a bit more.
High hours: Nothing in itself. You can log in for a week straight and do nothing and get high hours. High hours is a bonus added to the times above. What do you get? Not really sure, as the game does not have a lot to offer yet. IC reason: NPC says, "I have seen you around quit a bit, haven't I? Come on in and I'll fix you up with something special." Player IC reason: You have been around the block a few times, so know where to find the 'good' stuff. High hours may change what you get from quests or as loot as well.
Note 1: You have to be doing -something- for hours to count, be it talking, moving, or anything else. Idle time will not count.
Note 2: To prevent old players who spent little time playing a year ago from coming back and 'Power-Houring', ONLY hours spent in the game over six months ago fully count. Perhaps so many hours per week would count after the six months. Let's say ten hours a week. Anything more than that would not be counted until they are six months old. If you stop playing for a few months, hours would be subtracted, as people (and NPCs) would start to forget you. Such is life.
Note 3: Hours are progressive. The more time you spend, the better the reward.
Note 4: You do not get a -lot- of rewards. They are more like milestones. After (x) many hours and <# year in game>, <this item> becomes available. You still have to find and procure it, though.
High level (fighter-skill): This is what most of you see as heroes. Once you have a year under your belt, and have a high level fighter, you can get rare weapons in the skill you are high in. The higher the level you are, the nicer weapon (or armor/shields for those skills) you can get. At two and three years, these weapons get even more unique. Not uber-powerful, just unique. Perhaps some of them will never break. IC reason: NPC says: "You have spent a long time training with me, and I think you are ready to have this."
High level (crafter): Cooking, mining, basket-weaving, whatever. These folks are known as heroes to others as well, even though they may have never done great deeds. After a year and a higher level, you get better tools of your trade that allow you to do those trades faster or better. You may also get 'master' status in the crafts you are high in, and get special outfits to match. IC reason: NPC says, "<same as fighting>". Reason for master rank: It is a time thing, pure and simple. No one is given master status until they have been in the craft for a certain amount of time, no matter how skilled they are. This is taken straight out of real life. Now, for two or more years, you may get a 'Grand master' (or some such) status.
The Quester: Do a lot of quests, be around more than a year, get more quests. Simple. IC reason: NPCs are going to use a faction system that makes you known to them as you do more quests. At a year, some would say something to the affect of, "I hear you be quite the adventurer, and still alive to boot. You might be just the person I'm lookin' for, if you be interested."
The Explorer: What reward can you give to someone who has crossed the world hundreds of times, and seen all there is to see? No, not more to see (but maybe). Give them better shoes (or ointment for those without shoes). Seriously. The shoes would give them a bit of a speed/stamina boost. IC reason: Do you need one? They have been running all over the world. A bit of a speed/stamina boost is deserved. What, still need an IC reason? Fine ;): NPC says: "Sonny, your feet look like they're about to fall right off. Give me a moment, and I'll give you something to open the world to you!"
The Talker: Ya, that would be me. We deserve a bit of a reward as well for staying around for a year, and never using a single feature. Not sure what, though. ;) Unless, perhaps, it is putting that character's name somewhere. *shrugs*
So, what does a character get who is a high level in a lot of things, is a good fighter, and has been playing for two years? Extra shiny armor that no new person can get, a cool swords handed to him by his trainer, sweet cooking pots for which to make excellent stew in (but not much better than everyone elses), unique clothing for which to do his little turn on the catwalk, and some interesting quests to go on. And every single bit of it -in character-.
-
Finally, a human reaction! I was getting worried!
-
The Talker: Ya, that would be me. We deserve a bit of a reward as well for staying around for a year, and never using a single feature. Not sure what, though. Wink Unless, perhaps, it is putting that character's name somewhere. *shrugs*
My main character is that case too, and here's another possibility as well
The Guild Leader: Anyone who manages to keep and lead a guild for 2, 3 years or more(Or perhaps the founder of a longlasting guild). Well, it would be good to listen to things like "Greetings honorable *title* *character name* of the *guildname* " and to have longlasting guilds recognized. Anyway it should differ based on the type of guild. And obviously it wouldn't apply for IC Secret Guilds(Though the secrecy flag is not always used for IC, but for countering the OOC Guild ID above the character's head so it can be replaced by the proper insignia/uniform/etc on character description).
But this would prompt reactions from the noobs with "This is unfair threads", etc, etc.
-
But this would prompt reactions from the noobs with "This is unfair threads", etc, etc.
I'm sure we could handle such threads.
-
I like this idea alot, it would give a little bit of an edge over some of the 'old faithful' kinda players. I believe that people who have been in PS longer should have a small advantage, not huge so as to cause a jealousy fude, but enough to make a tad of a difference. Honestly I never heard of the ring of the past until now, though thats a great idea.
-EL
-
It still seems to me nothing but "look at me, I am elite" but hey if you can talk the devs into it, more power to you.
Why do you want stuff other people can't get? I can't go back and start a character on the very first public server, nobody can. I would suggest that if such a plan were to be implemented the clock starts ticking at that time and no retroactive bonuses apply.
Hmm wonder when I'll be able to steal one of those rings out of somebody's pocketses.
-
I wonder what in gods name ever made people start saying being an elite was a bad thing. Nothing wrong with being better than everyone else, as long as you don't use it to belittle others. It is an odd view this community has taken.
And yes, it is saying 'Look at me, I am an elite'. If you can stick around here for more than a year, you damn well deserve to say it as well. and there is nothing that you can get that others could not. They would just have to invest the same amount of time as you did.
As for the bonuses, most of them would have to start at the moment of implimentation.
-
It still seems to me nothing but "look at me, I am elite" but hey if you can talk the devs into it, more power to you.
I vote that we abolish individuality.
-
I vote we abolish collectivism
I vote we abolish distinction between the n00bs and the 13375
I vote that old players have access to subtler advantages and rewards that will prevent "1337ness" ( as 1337 = "Elite" ) .
Possible Scenario:
*cough* being friend with someone of influence inside dev team = favouritism ? *cough*
-
Alright, if you guys don't even try to explain this ICly, then I'm fine with it.
Otherwise, unless you come up with a really, really good explanation, I'm going to completely ignore it IC :P
-
Did you even -bother- to read my post, e-fool?
-
Alright, if you guys don't even try to explain this ICly, then I'm fine with it.
Why are you ignoring the explanations people have already given you?
-
Did you even -bother- to read my post, e-fool?
Sure I did. And I don't agree with it - if your character gets in-character privileges, there should be a decent in-character explanation. I understand oldbies like to be rewarded for sticking around, but how long you have been around has nothing to do with Yliakum and its inhabitant's daily lives.
Alright, if you guys don't even try to explain this ICly, then I'm fine with it.
Why are you ignoring the explanations people have already given you?
Quite simply, because they were crap :P
-
UTM gave some wonderful in-character reasons and he went into great detail on them. If you're going to dismiss them as "crap", then you're welcome to leave the discussion since you've said your bit and you have nothing further to contribute.
-
Agreed. I went back and read UtM's post just in case they were crap, but as usually it was a lovely and well explained piece of work with many good ideas. In fact I agreed with most of them. I don't really level my character much either these days - feels pointless because of the wipes. But I've been around since Molecular Blue too and understand the frustration that can come as a result of being an "oldbie". My personal preference is not to have much in the way of status as I find it uncomfortable truthfully. When people come to me and say ohh your work inspired me to do "somerandomthing" I'm kind of uncomfortable about it. But some people love that and relish it and thats fine too. Given the time they have spent in the community I have no problem with them showing off a little bit of status in some way. Those people are the real soul of the community. Emerald Fool, I don't know how long you've been here but you havn't been on the forums all that long afaik. Thats not a bad thing and it doesn't mean that stuff you say doesn't matter or should be ignored as is often the case when new people come in. Its a good thing because new people bring new energy and different perspectives, but keep in mind your perspective will be different of you are here in 2 years, arguing with new players lunging in. Food for thought and nothing more, just quit being so dismissive. Sometimes what makes a good idea is the way you look at it so try stepping out of your comfortable familiar zone and look at things in different light - its amazing how different things can look when you see them in a new way.
-
I went back and re-read UtM's post as well. :P
I would like to further that post by saying it is not only rewarding players for sticking around, or coming back, but it would UN-realistic to not have such a sytem in place. People who have been around longer -are- treated differently.
Let's take it to real life. The bus driver who has ben around for ten years will get cookies from his long time passengers. A new one will not. A returning driver will get welcome back gifts from the people he knew. A new one has no welcome back. An old solder will be pointed at by people, and things will be said like, "He was in the...". A new recruit will not have much of anything said about him, if he is noticed at all. You are going to invite people you have known for years to your next party faster than the new guy down the street. Even here in the forum, an oldbie, as you like to call them, will have greater weight taken from their words(or less if they are a known troll), than a first time poster.
That is how the world works. We are not an objective race, and to say that being known has nothing to do with daily life is just foolishness.
-
Those are things that are freely given by the givers, to expect them as a right destroys any meaning they may have.
-
I'm not sure the intent here is to expect any of this as a right. Instead the general gist is that such a system exists in real life and so the game world should respond to that in the interest of realism. Players can and do often respond like this naturally, but the NCP's should as well, possibly in the manner that UtM expressed, or perhaps some other way. It would make the game world more immersive if things in game responded to duration.
-
Those are things that are freely given by the givers, to expect them as a right destroys any meaning they may have.
Right... because NPCs have free will... ???
-
The point is that to incorporate it into the game system is to make it a right, x hours = y reward. I see this as something far better being done by the game masters on a case by case basis or not done at all. That way it actually has some meaning.
I suppose you could have it so that the NPC's keep track of how many times you interact with them and have that color their reactions to you but, for example, I have lived in Ottawa for more than forty years and the mayor would not know me from Adam, much less give me cookies. You seem to want all NPC's to regard you with awe just for hanging around for a while.
-
You are completely confused, it seems. Yes, the NPCs WILL keep track of who they know and like. It is called the faction system.
x hours = y rewards? You did not read what I wrote, did you? That is just one aspect. Does a player have the right to do more damage if they spend more time training? Yes. Do they have the right to make better swords if they craft longer? Yes. Do they have the right to be more well known if they have been around longer? Yes. Not having this kills any meaning to being around in the game for a long time. It kills the contiuing feel of the PS world. Power to the n00bs.
GMs determining player notability? That is just silly. GMs can not be around all the time, and they can make mistakes. GMs give out rewards for being in events, not for being around longer. Can't you imagine the flack GMs would get for this? It is not only silly, it is insane. Having your character validated by a GM is just plain wrong, and far too much work on the GM's part.
Your example with the mayor makes no sense to me either. Of course an NPC you never deal with is not going to reward you with lavish gifts. Only the ones you know, and have worked with for a long time will give you special rewards. Go back and reread my post. It is all there.
And the "regard in awe" is another pointless statement that has little to do with some of the ideas suggested. The object is to just make you known to NPCs and other players as a long time character, -if you wish-. If you don't want any of the rewards, don't take them, and stop being silly. Awe has nothing to do with it.
I dismiss all of your arguments.
Since you are so down on this wish, bilbous, I want you to suggest what -you- think would be a good idea.
-
I made my suggestion in this thread. (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27966.0) This idea sounds like nothing more than pure unadulterated greed to me. Certainly your refinement makes it less obvious but if we start down this road the developers may as well start giving in game rewards for people who donate their cash. What you are suggesting, it appears to me, is that you (generically speaking) as someone from atomic blue -- or whatever it was -- should be able to start off after the next total wipe with a decided advantage over anyone newer. I say this because you want to reward the player and not just the character. That is perfectly fine as long as you just want to play with yourselves but it won't help attract new people to the game. Just because someone has been around for a long time does not mean they have done anything other than tie up resources (still speaking in general terms with no specificity in mind.)
As I said before that is fine if you can get the developers to go along with it but I think it is a lost cause from the get go. Heck I won't refuse whatever meager rewards I can get for having had an account for a couple years.
As for your dismissals, they mean nothing to me, they are just so much hot air. If you are only here for whatever rewards you can get and not because you enjoy being here then I don't know what more to say. I am sure to think of something.
-
I would like to see the opinion of a "newbie" in this thread.
Most opinions here are biased to just one side, as most of those who posted until now are oldbies and this proposal is nothing but the idea of creating a "noble class" of old players based purely on time. IC this would mean unfair and unreal differences between an old character and a new one regardless of which one struggles more to become a true hero. Again this is nothing but elitism. Or as I prefer to say : "1337ness".
Also this would divide fully the "community" between the oldbies and newbies instead of uniting it.
-
The point is that to incorporate it into the game system is to make it a right, x hours = y reward. I see this as something far better being done by the game masters on a case by case basis or not done at all. That way it actually has some meaning.
Whereas I think it needs to be automated and systemic or else it would place too much of a workload on the GMs, it would open the doors to favouritism, and many people would complain about being overlooked.
I would like to see the opinion of a "newbie" in this thread.
Why?
-
I would like to see the opinion of a "newbie" in this thread.
Why?
Because this proposal is completely biased on the side of the oldbies. If a "newbie"(experience RPer, new to PS) comes here to post the bias of the other side in this matter, it will balance things a bit. For now I will reply as if I just came from Planeshift.
As I said, asides from being unrealistic, this will create a "noble class" and divide fully the community between new and old players.
-----/me enters Planeshift for the first time, and notices some characters that rarely are "online" but still have many privileges
Cool game! What? Why does that character has that shiny armor while we have these crappy stuff?
....
Bah this is stupid and unfair! I'm leaving for another game!
-
Already read that thread, and agree that NPCs might drop your name, or give you a hollar-out. But that has nothing to do with long term players. An NPC should only know you in this way if you talk to them a lot. A new player could sit and talk to an NPC for a week straight, and the NPC would realistically drop his name. "<name> is a great guy. He stops by and chats all the time." or " <name> will not stop coming around and bothering me." Or, you could be in the game for ten years, and never talk to any NPC. "Tell me about <name>" NPC: "I have no idea what <name> is."
If you have been playing for those ten years, an NPC will know who you are, even if they do not know your name. It is not a big stretch to think they might wave you over to their shop and offer you some goods. As I said, just -existing- where the NPCs can see you will make them treat you in a different way after a long time. Why? Because NPCs are supposed to be people, and that is how people act.
I say this because you want to reward the player and not just the character. That is perfectly fine as long as you just want to play with yourselves but it won't help attract new people to the game.
What? I think you are missing the bigger picture. An acount is not rewarded. Only characters are. If you player for 100 years, and created a character today, you get no rewards. New players do not automaticly get level 80 characters when they start the game. Does that turn new players away? Perhaps some, but such is life. Is giving older characters rewards going to drive away new players? Perhaps, but it will make the ones who are here want to stay a little longer. People like time achievement, and they like rewards for that time. Who cares if it drives away the l33T 'I wanna be the best their is, and have all the best loot in under a week' crowd. Is that who you really want to cater to?
Finally, the poularity contest...well, everyone hates the beauty queen. I would not want to become a known character this way in the game, and think it is a horrid idea.
Hot air can burn was well as fire.
-
Because this proposal is completely biased on the side of the oldbies. If a "newbie"(experience RPer, new to PS) comes here to post the bias of the other side in this matter, it will balance things a bit. For now I will reply as if I just came from Planeshift.
I think most experienced RPers would think the idea is good. Most other games already have something like this.
As I said, asides from being unrealistic, this will create a "noble class" and divide fully the community between new and old players.
Well, a "noble class" is realistic for a medieval world. As far as dividing the community... I think that's bullcrap. It won't divide the community any more than it's already divided. If anything, it will help bring the community together because some of the more obnoxious new players might shut up once they realize they don't own the game.
-----/me enters Planeshift for the first time, and notices some characters that rarely are "online" but still have many privileges
Cool game! What? Why does that character has that shiny armor while we have these crappy stuff?
....
Bah this is stupid and unfair! I'm leaving for another game!
Good! If that's your reaction, you must suck as a human being roleplayer!!
-
If you have been playing for those ten years, an NPC will know who you are, even if they do not know your name.
I have an alt character I play once in a month, or even less, will he be well known while a character that struggles to become a real hero and famous one will be nothing because he was "created" earlier?
It is not a big stretch to think they might wave you over to their shop and offer you some goods. As I said, just -existing- where the NPCs can see you will make them treat you in a different way after a long time. Why? Because NPCs are supposed to be people, and that is how people act.
I lived in a town for five years and the people I didn't know never acted in such way. To be well known a character must be active, not passive , lazy and morose(IC I consider "offline" characters as resting/inside their homes/etc ).
I say this because you want to reward the player and not just the character. That is perfectly fine as long as you just want to play with yourselves but it won't help attract new people to the game.
Bilbous said it all, the goal of this new stat is to create an "elite" of old players, a OOC "royalty" inside PS. Such distinctions only breed disunion, jealously and complaints. Also they aren't much different from things like "Premium Accounts" on commercial MMORPGs(Except that here you wouldn't be able to pay monthly for a "title of noblesse".
What? I think you are missing the bigger picture. An acount is not rewarded.
I can create and upload a character, and never play him/her, still this character will have many advantages using such system. The "Big Picture" is the Community, the need of expanding it in both quality and quantity, and this will be harmful to it.
Does that turn new players away? Perhaps some, but such is life. Is giving older characters rewards going to drive away new players? Perhaps, but it will make the ones who are here want to stay a little longer. People like time achievement, and they like rewards for that time.
Planeshift isn't a job, it is a game(although alpha it's still a game). Nobody should be OOCly rewarded for having fun on it.
Who cares if it drives away the l33T 'I wanna be the best their is, and have all the best loot in under a week' crowd. Is that who you really want to cater to?
I don't think I'm a "1337", I would probably go away from seeing such absurd distinctions between the new and old players. There are enough of "upper classes" IRL.
Finally, the poularity contest...well, everyone hates the beauty queen. I would not want to become a known character this way in the game, and think it is a horrid idea.
Simply put, "fame and glory" should be completely based on what the character does in game, and not on how many time it exists. Some old people lived their whole lives in anonymity while younger ones sometimes become famous. This is an OOC measure to please the old players in detriment of the new ones.
Because this proposal is completely biased on the side of the oldbies. If a "newbie"(experience RPer, new to PS) comes here to post the bias of the other side in this matter, it will balance things a bit. For now I will reply as if I just came from Planeshift.
I think most experienced RPers would think the idea is good. Most other games already have something like this.
Presumptuous to claim such thing, and on these other games it is usually called the "Premium Accounts".
As I said, asides from being unrealistic, this will create a "noble class" and divide fully the community between new and old players.
Well, a "noble class" is realistic for a medieval world. As far as dividing the community... I think that's bullcrap. It won't divide the community any more than it's already divided. If anything, it will help bring the community together because some of the more obnoxious new players might shut up once they realize they don't own the game.
You must struggle to reach the "noble class", not only create an account and a character to play once in a month. And I meant it as a totally OOC "noble class" to please older players in detriment of newer ones. It may encourage arrogance as well, as any form of elitism.
Good! If that's your reaction, you must suck as a human being roleplayer!!
I don't feed trolls anymore. I just put myself under the point of view of a "noob".
/me throws a bucket of water against the flame
-
lordraleigh, by your logic, we should take levelling up out of the game entirely. The settings themselves say that characters start off as nobodies and then with time become heros. Your way of doing things is OOC, not ours.
on these other games it is usually called the "Premium Accounts".
I guess you never played any of the elderscrolls series. In Daggerfall, after doing jobs and quests, people you talk to on the street and in stores begin to know you by name - for better or for worse. This business about "premium accounts" is without any substance whatsoever, we're talking about something fundamentally different.
-
I have an alt character I play once in a month, or even less, will he be well known while a character that struggles to become a real hero and famous one will be nothing because he was "created" earlier?
Yes and no. It depends on what you did in you time online. Read this again http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27959.msg321044#msg321044
You seem to only want to reward powerlevelers. Bravo. There is no way to reward the RP 'struggling' to become a 'hero'.
I lived in a town for five years and the people I didn't know never acted in such way. To be well known a character must be active, not passive , lazy and morose(IC I consider "offline" characters as resting/inside their homes/etc ).
Well known? Who said anything about well known? Read this again: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27959.msg321044#msg321044
Particually the parts about different rewards for different kinds of players.
And you are comparing your seperatist modern view of mostly independant people and superstores to the small medieval world of PS. It does happen in your town, you just don't notice it as much.
Bilbous said it all, the goal of this new stat is to create an "elite" of old players, a OOC "royalty" inside PS. Such distinctions only breed disunion, jealously and complaints. Also they aren't much different from things like "Premium Accounts" on commercial MMORPGs(Except that here you wouldn't be able to pay monthly for a "title of noblesse".
Plah, foolish talk. I would tell you to read that post of mine again, but I assume you read it a few times over by now. There is nothing noble about it. The way PS is now, only script kiddies who have tons of time to waste on there hands get all the best stuff in the shortest amount of time. They are your 'nobles' of PS, and the time they have gives them the 'premium accounts'. Perhaps we should have people change their names once a month as well, so you can never become known to player or NPC. Make everyone equal. Power to the n00bs.
I can create and upload a character, and never play him/her, still this character will have many advantages using such system. The "Big Picture" is the Community, the need of expanding it in both quality and quantity, and this will be harmful to it.
Oh come on. I am sure you -must- have read that post of mine. What many advantages would you have? Maybe some shiny polish for you tools that does absolutly nothing gamewise? Whup-D-who-ha. The newbies will be crying a river, and leaving in droves. Giving older player incentives to stay around more will enrich the game more than 100 new folks a day. I don't understand your reasoning.
Planeshift isn't a job, it is a game(although alpha it's still a game). Nobody should be OOCly rewarded for having fun on it.
Huh, then I guess we should take quests out, and leveling, as all the rewards I stated were very clearly IC.
I don't think I'm a "1337", I would probably go away from seeing such absurd distinctions between the new and old players. There are enough of "upper classes" IRL.
Are you reading the same thread as me? Do you really think existing characters are going to open their arms to new players just because their is not a visible distinction in the game? You really don't understand how people work, do you? The opposite is true. Old players often shun newer ones beacuse the old players are treated as if they are just as new. Guess what, people have been leaving because of this, and it is not just the new players. have a look at some of the 'I am leaving' threads, and you will see what I mean. You CAN NOT force people to all be the same, and expect them to be happy with it. Communism tried that. I do not see where you are seeing an absurd distinction anywhere. The only thing absurd is how a powerleveler of one week can get better in everything, and have all the best things, then belittle the people that have been around longer because there is no way to tell them from newbies.
Simply put, "fame and glory" should be completely based on what the character does in game, and not on how many time it exists. Some old people lived their whole lives in anonymity while younger ones sometimes become famous. This is an OOC measure to please the old players in detriment of the new ones.
You don't even realize you are agreeing with me, do you? Well, except for that last part. This is starting to get idiotic. All the character rewards would be IN character. You also seem to think that this would be a reward system for only old players. Well, guess what? New players become old players. Everyone gets a chance at doing this. You just have to stick around longer. And, to get the better rewards, you do actually have to do something. Nothing would just be handed out. No fame, no glory. Oh, maybe you wnat everyone to have a mind wipe so they don't remember what characters are older or newer. That would be lovely.
Presumptuous to claim such thing, and on these other games it is usually called the "Premium Accounts".
Again with those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean. A premium is something you pay to get things others can not. Anybody can get the rewards, just not right away. That is not a premium. That is the carrot on the end of a stick. Let me guess, if you started a guild, every new member would have the highest rank instantly, and have equal rights to do as they pleased. What does time spent loyal to a guild mean anyways? That was sarcasm, if you missed it.
You must struggle to reach the "noble class", not only create an account and a character to play once in a month. And I meant it as a totally OOC "noble class" to please older players in detriment of newer ones. It may encourage arrogance as well, as any form of elitism.
Rewards are only equal to what you do in the game. There is no 'noble' for a person who does not do anything in the game, just a "Thanks for staying". So you are basically saying to older players "Ya, well, screw you guys. You should just have worked harder, and played only the type of character that gets all the best things. No, you are equal to n00bs in our eyes." Lovely notion. I makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.
Just one more question. How many new players do you know that left because they could not get a Ring of the Past? I await your answer.
-
The ring of the past was a well kept secret as this thread is the first I have heard of it in almost two years. I presume it was given to players at the time as an incentive to recreate their characters after a complete wipe. Tell me, was it one per account or one per character? Does it let you qualify for training otherwise unavailable due to otherwise unachievable stats?
a "ring of the past" which raises all their character stats by 20
It certainly seems like it would accelerate training because you qualify for this weapon or that skill level sooner, of course if you don't bother to level it doesn't make enough difference to be objectionable. Does it have a maximum level to which it can be effective? If you wear two are they incremental? Is it considered cheating to wear one while dueling? Where can I get one?
I can understand why the developers would want to reward long time adherents, I can even understand why those people should feel like they ought to be rewarded. To ask for a reward, essentially for being a volunteer, is the height of bad manners and poor taste. To continue to push for it in the face of resistance seems like nothing more than demanding a bribe. The seed has been sown, if you water it too much it will die, no different than if it gets no water at all.
-
The ring of the past was a well kept secret
No it wasn't. There are a bunch of threads on the forum about it including at least one sticky.
It certainly seems like it would accelerate training
No it doesn't. It doesn't change the stats, it only acts as a modifier.
To ask for a reward, essentially for being a volunteer, is the height of bad manners and poor taste.
No one asked for it. It was given to MB players by Talad as thanks. This wish is similar but different, and I'm not asking it for myself - I think it should be given to everyone who qualifies and I think it should be on a sliding scale.
To those reading this thread for the first time: Read this. (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27959.msg321044#msg321044)
To the moderators: This thread needs to be locked with this post as the last post. The discussion is going nowhere; UTM is being forced to repeat himself while others are repeating themselves while ignoring the responses given to them. (For example, Emeraldfool said that there were no IC reasons given, despite a bunch of posts dedicated to IC reasons - including a few which were direct replies to his earlier posts.) Nothing new is being discussed and no one who is engaged in the discussion will change his mind on anything, so let's lock it.
-
Would you be so kind as to point out some of those threads, especially the sticky where the ring of the past is discussed? A standard forum search lists three pages with this thread being the only one where the phrase exists. An advanced search lists twenty nine pages that are not worth sifting through. I realize this is off topic, strictly speaking, but I would appreciate you doing so.
-
The Ring of the Past was not a secret. In MB, I believe you were only limited to one character per account, and you only got a RotP if you had some crystals transferring over to tria. No crystals, no RotP, even if your character name itself was migrated.
-
I did not really mean it was intentionally kept from others, just that it was not common knowledge. I apologize if my poor choice of words left the unsavory impression I thought there was some hidden agenda. What you are saying is that essentially it was a quest reward and only incidentally a reward for past participation, would that be fair?
-
I thought there was some hidden agenda.
Of course there is.
Besides it already bost all stats by 20.
-
Would you be so kind as to point out some of those threads, especially the sticky where the ring of the past is discussed? A standard forum search lists three pages with this thread being the only one where the phrase exists. An advanced search lists twenty nine pages that are not worth sifting through. I realize this is off topic, strictly speaking, but I would appreciate you doing so.
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=23517.0 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=23517.0)
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=11943.0 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=11943.0)
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=20616.0 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=20616.0)
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=11940.0 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=11940.0)
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=14268.0 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=14268.0)
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=18218.0 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=18218.0)
The search is magical. I didn't find the stickied thread but then I only spent about 1 minute doing that search. Undoubtedly there are probably many more.
Besides it already bost all stats by 20.
My ring was tragically stolen :( When Xordan was out of town I took the initiative to create a Linux installer temporarily for the linux users. Unfortunately before I packaged it I tested it with my account and forgot to remove the login. That was all that was stolen though... well - that and my energy glyph. :( I'll have to wait for another wipe/MB Migration to get it back I guess.
-
Thank you for providing those links, I was having trouble with the search functionality (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28027.0) which I should not have had.
Of course, in order to search for something you have to know what it is and it is not like a lot of people go around showing off their rings in game anymore. It is old hat.
Sorry to hear about the theft.
-
Thank you for providing those links, I was having trouble with the search functionality (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28027.0) which I should not have had.
Of course, in order to search for something you have to know what it is and it is not like a lot of people go around showing off their rings in game anymore. It is old hat.
Sorry to hear about the theft.
I don't believe there was ever a time when people went around showing off their rings.
I don't think it's necessary to inform everyone OOCly of every feature of the game.
Here's yet another thread that deals with rings of the past: August 04, 2005 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=18172.0). It's sticked to the top of the Server Status forum.
-
Reading the initial post i like the idea of "hero" type players that can get items through age and experiance.
But what of some people who have changed identity since then? Ive been known as 3 different characters before this one. And one of them happened to be in Molecular blue and good friends with Amheh. Im not asking for a ring, im just saying that this idea will work for people who have kept the same character since then and continue them now. And this may cause arguements between people who are like me..
-
Reading the initial post i like the idea of "hero" type players that can get items through age and experiance.
But what of some people who have changed identity since then? Ive been known as 3 different characters before this one. And one of them happened to be in Molecular blue and good friends with Amheh. Im not asking for a ring, im just saying that this idea will work for people who have kept the same character since then and continue them now. And this may cause arguements between people who are like me..
It depends on what your goals are. If you're trying to reward players, that's one things. If you're trying to set apart characters based on how long they've been around, then it's another.
-
I dunno if Im ranting again, but iis this game so obessively based of off WoW its point blank creeping me out. I can find so many things similar that I cracked up. Im sure it wasnt WoW copying a small populated alpha game either. Neither way, HONOR, LEGENDARY, ELITE all are part of WoW as well, though giving those titles to players would be a bit off lame because someone could find a way to hack that. Hell, do it like WoW and make armor drops with 5+ stamina, 2+ agility and so forth. Thats how it goes.
-
I dunno if Im ranting again, but iis this game so obessively based of off WoW its point blank creeping me out. I can find so many things similar that I cracked up. Im sure it wasnt WoW copying a small populated alpha game either. Neither way, HONOR, LEGENDARY, ELITE all are part of WoW as well, though giving those titles to players would be a bit off lame because someone could find a way to hack that. Hell, do it like WoW and make armor drops with 5+ stamina, 2+ agility and so forth. Thats how it goes.
I've always seen it as closer to Daggerfall only with 3d models and a "classic RPG" NPC chat interface.
-
I dunno if Im ranting again, but iis this game so obessively based of off WoW its point blank creeping me out. I can find so many things similar that I cracked up. Im sure it wasnt WoW copying a small populated alpha game either. Neither way, HONOR, LEGENDARY, ELITE all are part of WoW as well, though giving those titles to players would be a bit off lame because someone could find a way to hack that. Hell, do it like WoW and make armor drops with 5+ stamina, 2+ agility and so forth. Thats how it goes.
I've always seen it as closer to Daggerfall only with 3d models and a "classic RPG" NPC chat interface.
When I mean based on, it has to do with names like tria and character creation, etc.
-
When I mean based on, it has to do with names like tria and character creation, etc.
Are you saying that WOW invented "character creation"? Tell me you're joking.
-
no...I mean that the way it looks from both sides. Ah forget it
-
Sorry, I haven't had time to read everything, so that is the reason why it might be off topic.
I believe the heroism should be based mainly on the time the character has existed, how many people have put this character in their buddy list, and also of the character's parents/childhood. It should also be based on the stats, the distance traveled, the quests achieved and maybe also creatures killed (taking in account how powerful they are).
Obviously, the longer a person has existed, the more known he will be, because he had time to do many more things then a new person.
For the buddy list system, I reckon it might be a good idea because for a person to put you in their buddy list, you must be interacting with them, either by helping them, or by simply talking to them.
The parents and childhood should be taken in account because the child of two normal farmers will never be as recognised as the child of two exceptional octarches.
The number of quests accomplished will mean that many more NPCs will know you.
The stats can only be acquired by time and effor, so it should also be counted.
The distance traveled should also be taken into account because by traveling, you see more people/NPCs, fight more creatures, and know more of the area/landscape.
The number of creatures killed will mean also how active you are, just like traveling.
My main reason to have so many things to be taken into account is that for a person to gain heroism, he well need to do many things, and also, a hero doesn't do just one thing; He those many. By having many difference things to take into account will also mean that it will be harder to hack.
-
Josellis: Please read through the thread.
Parents: A child can exceed his or her parents, or a child may never rise to the level of their accomplishments. Since a peasant can become a hero and a king a fool, I think parents should have nothing to do with it.
Buddy list: It's a horrible measure and it would VERY easily be abused. You can have a guild of old players which only has 10 people in it. You can have a guild of players who only play the game for a week before leaving, but that guild can have over 300 people in it. And you could make new characters just to add your main character to their buddy list. It's just a bad idea. And it's not very interesting nor does it really make sense. There are better measures, no matter what your goal is.
Quests should be their own reward. Again, opens the door to abuse.
Distance travelled would open the door to abuse.
Creatures killed would probably be the dumbest measure of them all. Time spent killing things = time not spent RPing. Plus not everyone plays the game to camp mobs. It's just a stupid idea, to be honest.
Read the thread.
-
If Planeshift in the future will have a better and unique type of character skills development system, more tailored to Roleplayers than to powerlevellers, the criticism about including "stats" or quests done on the way an hero is recognized wouldn't make any sense. Unfortunately this is not the case for now. And buddy lists, well I add lots of character names to mine to know when there are RPers online. Same with number of monsters killed without any relation.
Killing a monster in the wilds: Your luck, but nobody will claim you as a hero
Helping in a great way to defend Hydlaa against an invasion of the Stone Labyrinths: Here is one for your character to start becoming famous.
Getting into social campaigns: Help the poor constantly, you will sooner or later become a populist hero on their view.
Helping gov: First step if you wish to have your own lobby :devil:
Now...
Being an older player and gaining advantages just because of time without having to do any other effort for it besides waiting: :thumbdown:
The other choice is very OOC, regardless of the seemingly logical arguments from its defenders. I would be surprised to see an alt I almost never play to become famous among NPCs instead of a common individual.
For those insisting on this "old is better" talk, remember that M$ is much younger than IBM and still grew much faster than it. Let's make one deal: older player characters don't get any patronizing, just the acknowledgement of the other PCs(only if they are commonly online), an new PCs have harder begginings already(0 tria and no items).
-
Actually Heroism is good idea but not now, too many other things to do first... Also based not on time existed but existed in-game = online...
Surely ur relations with others should be taken into account (but i don't know how to do that... make ppl vote for u? ;D), Skills - yes, but i suppose something like - u need to have 1/2 of skills 20+(40+,60+) lvl... maybe some of them r a-must-have skills.... Kill-count - no; Buddy list - no; Parents - stupid, cause i can choose not to choose any (can i? ???); Quests - errr... maybe... maybe all? :P Distance travelled - ..... u suppose server not to crush every 10 mins?? imagine - 100 players running... & server need to track all of them... also this will need to implement more exact metric system...
So... it's good idea but i haven't said im for it ;)
Regards,
Didar.
-
Other thing: Someone could easily exploit this by running another client in parallel(I don't have the rig for that) and keeping online mostly AFK with a character to make him/her become "famous".
After some months... you got another "famous" character!
-
Being an older player and gaining advantages just because of time without having to do any other effort for it besides waiting: :thumbdown:
The other choice is very OOC, regardless of the seemingly logical arguments from its defenders. I would be surprised to see an alt I almost never play to become famous among NPCs instead of a common individual.
For those insisting on this "old is better" talk, remember that M$ is much younger than IBM and still grew much faster than it. Let's make one deal: older player characters don't get any patronizing, just the acknowledgement of the other PCs(only if they are commonly online), an new PCs have harder begginings already(0 tria and no items).
Recognition from NPCs isn't something that I had proposed. That's part of UTM's idea.
That said, I still see it based on soley on time as the only way to realize the intention of the stat while avoiding both favoritism and exploitation.
Also based not on time existed but existed in-game = online...
Exploitable. People would just leave their characters online all the time. There are already a few people who became well known for this because there was a webpage which showed the stats for who had the highest stats, who was online the most, who had the most advisor points, etc. So people left their characters online all the time without being physically present at their computer so that they could have bragging rights.
Listen, this can be done in different ways but let's not forget the fundamental intention of the wish: A way to distinguish old characters from new characters such that old characters will always have certain, if small advantages over new characters - even if the new characters are power levelled and rich.
It might be a slight boost to stats. It might mean access to certain items and quests. It might mean the ability to equip certain items in the same way that certain items require a certain level of strength or intelligence to equip.
Will it be unrealistic for certain characters? Yes, and it won't matter because such characters won't be particularly active. Further, this stat will be largely transparent and invisible so you won't even notice it in most cases - especially if the character in question hasn't taken advantage of the benefits available to him or her.
Why can't it be affected by in game activities? Because no matter how you do it, it will open the door to powerlevelling and exploitation, and it will go against the intention of the wish. Because of the reason for the stat to exist, there's no reason for the stat to be based on in game activities.
Does it have to be called Heroism? No. Does it have to be called legendary status? No. Does it have to have ANYTHING to do with reputation or how well known you are? No. Does it have to be terribly in character and realistic? No. Call it "aura" for all I care. Call it "the force". Call it "we're going to insert a creative name for this stat sometime in the future but for now just think of it as a sort of abstract principle that is mostly representational in nature". It's a means to an end.