PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Meredee on January 20, 2008, 10:19:48 pm
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I had discussions about the so called rp fights including rolling dices with some people and I thought to start a discussions about them here... So, here it goes.
There are many RPG systems with complicated structures of stats and skills, where you use dices. If you attack, you always have to roll. But the result of your attack doesn't depend only on what you have rolled but also on your skill. So before you attack somebody who looks much stronger than you (GM tells you that), you will think about your chances and resign or attack him together with your friends.
In case of Yliakum, you also have complicated structures of stats and skills, you have dozens of offensive and defensive spells and you have the possibility to use this all in duel. And if you have swords level 30 you will NOT always hit for (let's say) 130, your attacks will be between 100 and 160 (let's say). The rolling is included. Besides, while duelling people are moving all the time and it depends strongly on your luck if you manage to hit the opponent or not (and probably on your technique but I think luck makes 70% here).
So... if the system exists, why not use it?
You will say, that people with low stats have to have equal chances, but... WHY?! If somebody wants to have 5 alts or doesn't want to train at all, they should just play weak character and don't start fights with stronger people. Just like in real life - if some big guy would be insulting me, I would never start a fight, I would just ignore him, run away or call for help. The same in game - I wouldn't just attack somebody who "may be impossible to defeat", because it's not realistic. Why should big Kran has the same chances in a fight like a teenager Dermorian girl? It's just not logical.
Even in standard RPG you never start with a hero, who could just beat everybody. You start as average and then develop your character for months or even years. Why should this development be ignored in PlaneShift? Why shouldn't people just play characters accordlingly to their stats? I always did and I even included it in my description (at the beginning my character was looking naive and weak, later quite self-confident but not really brave, now I think I'm going to change it to self-confident).
There is also other thing about RP-duels, that annoys me. I haven't seen a sigle one RP fight in which it didn't come to a long OOC which kills real RP. People always start fighting about whose turn it was, about interpretation of rolls and such. Usually it also comes to fights about who is a good rp player and who's not.
In the moment I'm thinking about ignoring RP fights at all because I see Im not the only one person who thinks they're silly. As somebody said to me - it's like playing a game inside of a game. You have the whole system but you still roll dices and interpret the results in your own way. I can roll dices in case I want to slap somebody's face, not in a real fight. I will just stick to the fact that many people "are somewhat stronger" or "may be impossible to defeat" for me and will just avoid making them want to fight me.
...does anyone has a same oppinion as I do? Or you have some arguments that justify the fact that someone can just come to me in the middle of plaza, say "hello" and write ...
./.me unsheathes his Halberd and hit Meredee with it
...as it happened half an hour ago.
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Meredee, in-game stats are crap at this point. Game mechanics are crap at this point. There's going to be a wipe at some point. Some people just want to roleplay, which is what this game is for. We don't want to go through all of the grind and unnecessary things in order to play, we simply want to play. Many things in RP fights are justified by character histories or roleplays that happened ingame to make them how they are. There's no point in leveling a character up just to have him wiped or killed in an RP fight later on, it's better to have a fresh character with justified events to make him powerful. If you feel you have to grind just to play the game, this clearly isn't the game for you.
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If you feel you have to grind just to play the game, this clearly isn't the game for you.
if you dont feel the need to use game mechanics, then use these forums to RP and maybe the game isn't for you ....
why even bother having any skills in game.
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"/me" is for things outside of the game mechanics. That's exactly what it's there for.[/me]
However, at this point in the game, grinding's completely pointless. I don't see why it's a problem to be using /me.
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I like RP fighting ... but only if the other people involved are mature enough to do it without arguing. Why? Because the duel system is extremely limiting and I hate being limited in my options. :P
There are different ways to RP fight from my experience. Some ways involve a lot of dice rolling and including stats and numbers in every action that influences someone else. This usually makes things complicated really fast and it often ends up in arguing. Then there are the complete opposites where no dice rolls are used at all and people just 'bash it out' in text. Without any rules things can easily get out of hand as well though, unless both players agree on an outcome in advance .. but then where is the fun in that? The third way, which lies in between those two would be to include rolls but forget about technicalities like which stats to use when and all that. Both the attacker and defender just use a six sided die for every action and the highest roll wins.
The last option has worked the best for me so far and I've had a couple very fun fights that way, even the ones I lost.
Or you have some arguments that justify the fact that someone can just come to me in the middle of plaza, say "hello" and write ...
./.me unsheathes his Halberd and hit Meredee with it
...as it happened half an hour ago.
That is what we call godmodding .. a big risk when RP fighting and something less experienced people tend to do a lot. It's never fair to enforce an action onto another player without giving them a chance to defend themselves, even if it's a very small chance.
Instead the guy should have said ... /me unsheathes his halberd and tries to hit meredee with a surprising blow ... after which you agree on a form to continue your fight. Either one of the above methods or starting a duel.
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I didn't say it was completely unusable in RP, but solely using /roll to emulate fights accompanied with godmodding and stories that are clearly against settings goes one step too far in my opinion.
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I didn't say it was completely unusable in RP, but solely using /roll to emulate fights accompanied with godmodding and stories that are clearly against settings goes one step too far in my opinion.
Well d'oh. That's like saying, "I think people pouring poison into my city's water system is one step too far.
Balance is necessary. The more mature the players, the easier it is to find.
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godmodding and going against the settings are always too far. It isn't necessarily tied in with RP combat though.
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Firstly I'll say that when it comes to rping with dice I do dislike it. I think the dice rules for rp fighting personally are silly and that they aren't fair no matter how you do it. Too much relies on luck and not the actual abilities of the character you use.
Secondly I'll say I think pvp is worst. First thing it gives people the idea that "if its not in the game it should not be done." The game is incomplete so there are things that can not be done yet. However role playing is acting as if the game is complete. Does that mean that mean that if swords aren't implemented I can't role play to have one? No.
Secondly it gives people the idea that just because you level your character really high you can't be a god modder. Just because you have more time to play the game and level doesn't mean you should feel anyone who doesn't have the luxury is under you. I personally feel it just as unrealistic for someone who's just started the game to suddenly be able to rp himself all powerful because he spent a week grinding as I feel it silly for someone new who's just started to think himself all powerful but never trained. Just because you've got the stats to back you up doesn't mean that your in the right.
So why do I rp fight? Obviously because its the most realistic, not limiting like pvp, and whether you've trained or not its fair. I can rp fight and use magic and actually win unlike when I pvp and use magic which always ends in failure. Actual things like character intellegence and strategy can be used in an rp fight. Having maxed intellegence doesn't mean anything when in pvp so what would be the point after all :P
As for god modding period I'd like to say two things. First god modding is when someone forces their abilities on another. So if someone says "/me kills you with a knife" that would be godmodding. Get where I'm going with grinded abilities? Just because my agility and strength are way higher than yours that doesn't mean I get to say "/me kills you with a knife." Even if you say "/me tries to kill you with a knife" I can bet you there are people out there who are going to say, "You should get killed because my level is obviously higher than yours." Secondly god modding isn't "/me is a demon" or something of the like. That again is touching on that whole "pvp makes one think if it doesn't exist ingame I don't have to listen to you." Having a special power is a touchy subject but I'd say things like that are fine as long as you have a consequence. For example if I say that I have a spell that inflicts perma death I have to have some kind of sacrifice like maybe after using the spell I have to spend an rl month in Death Realm. It needs to balance.
Thats all for today :P
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While I disagree about some points, all in all what Duraza said is fairly solid and more or less an accurate representation of my feelings on the issue.
/me pats Duraza on the head:
Good boy.
/me then knocks Duraza flying across the room, just for the heck of it and to model godmodding.
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Besides, I'm pretty sure everyone who's posted here has already gone out of the settings.
For example, Meredee:
Your ingame boyfriend Fesek has a water glyph, which doesn't even exist. Does that mean he godmodes in your definition?
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Besides, I'm pretty sure everyone who's posted here has already gone out of the settings.
What's your point?
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Then why always the need to fight with a character without skill, start a Yulbar pet shop or something ;D
Most RP's are either about a representative of some (un)known deity, being the heir to some throne somewhere or having discovered ancient powers that make then nigh invulnerable. If I lived in such a city I'd run off to the country and hide untill all deities, newfound kings and queens and ancient powers were done fighting. If there was a Hydlaa to return to ....
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Besides, I'm pretty sure everyone who's posted here has already gone out of the settings.
What's your point?
That people are hypocrites. They complain about people going out of the settings and whatnot when they themselves do the same thing they're complaining about.
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There is a difference between going out of settings and against settings in my eyes.
Having a water glyph is out of settings since we can't know such a glyph exists but with many other glyphs existing it's also not completely unthinkable to have such a glyph existing.
Claiming to be a vampire is against the settings. Planeshift has no vampires, planeshift has dark way mages with life draining spells. :P
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It seems like going out of the settings (with the right justifications of course) is a lot more fun than following the settings. Hydlaa is a medieval town that apparently has a ridiculous amount of guards, where people walk around and talk about some of the most boring topics at times. Evil characters and "godmoders" as Meredee calls them, people who are going out of the settings, add a much more fun and exciting aspect to the game.
Besides, it's still alpha isn't it? What's the worry? When settings expands a lot more and things are concrete, that's when things like this should be stressed.
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I agree with Zan on this... Although in my mind going "out of settings" too far can become "against settings". Making up a new glyph is out of settings, making up a new city is out of settings to the point of almost going against the settings.
Also, I see Quq's point. However, it seems to me that those are mostly the immature RPers. I've engaged in many much more commonplace RP storylines in my time here.
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Honestly, i am quite sick of RP fighting at the moment. I actually do support the idea that if you train your character, you should be able to portray yourself as more powerful, and therefore have a slight advantage in an RP fight. Im not saying that everyone who RPs an untrained character as super-powerful, is wrong and that they cant be a great RPer, its just that i have encountered so much BS lately, its been driving me nuts.
That said, i DO prefer to use rolls when RP fighting (if at all). Yes, it is random. But the alternative, is far too annoying, and gets way out of control. In the times that i have RP fought like that, it has resulted in godmodding, invincible barmaids, and a whole mess of irritating situations i do not wish to repeat. I think to be a good RP fighter, you have to be willing to let your character fail. If you go into every fight not willing to lose, to get seriously injured or killed, then that is completely unrealistic. In real life you wouldnt pick a fight with a fully armored person (ok or person with a gun/weapon then :P ) if you didnt plan on getting hurt at all. If you dont want your character to die, running away is always an option, and in fact i have had my character do that.
Lately i have been trying actual dueling with several friends, and i find it a lot more fun then trying to outstab someone who is determined that their character is invincible.
In a perfect world, rolls wouldnt be necessary because everyone would be mature to RP the fight in a fair fashion. At the moment i dont see this as possible.
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Evil characters and "godmoders" as Meredee calls them, people who are going out of the settings, add a much more fun and exciting aspect to the game.
Why don't I see her saying that then? Is it just you seeing that? Nothing wrong with evil characters, just as long as RP isn't forced upon you, like in the example meredee uses
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It isn't in this actual post, but it's the discussion we had leading up to her posting this. When I feel like digging through the log I'll post it here.
Edit: In the example, that was a bullcrap way of doing it. However, if you're being randomly attacked, you shouldn't really have a choice and say "I don't want to be attacked today, maybe later."
It was an immature roleplayer, but in cases like that the only problem was not adding "tries to" in the action.
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RP fights can be far more descriptive, and thus entertaining, than duels. As long as your opponent is mature enough to understand they can lose, RP fights are the best things about RPing, and since RPing is the best part of PS...
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(http://www.thestarwarsrp.com/forum/image.php?u=43&type=sigpic&dateline=1199065491)
Quite self explanatory...
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Personally I am a lover of RP fighting sans dice but as mentioned before it does take a certain maturity to be able to accurately and honestly assess the damage given and taken.
Some reading for those willing to try proper RP fighting.
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=19339.msg212536#msg212536
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26809.msg302810#msg302810
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This is a very old argument that keeps cropping up. The same old suspects posting the same old viewpoints with random newcomers lining up on every side. I said it before I'll say it again. If you want to play whatever you like then make the skill/stats user adjustable. Create a system so that when something is increased something else is decreased so that nobody can be maxed out in everything and then do away with training altogether. I get along fine without PVP either real or imaginary. Of course I also do not play much anymore either. That is kind of sad considering how much time I spend on the forum.
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It seems like going out of the settings (with the right justifications of course) is a lot more fun than following the settings. Hydlaa is a medieval town that apparently has a ridiculous amount of guards, where people walk around and talk about some of the most boring topics at times. Evil characters and "godmoders" as Meredee calls them, people who are going out of the settings, add a much more fun and exciting aspect to the game.
Besides, it's still alpha isn't it? What's the worry? When settings expands a lot more and things are concrete, that's when things like this should be stressed.
And who's it to justify the "right way"? Phinehas indeed is right saying it's a dangerous thing, and can turn into as well justified complaints about "godmodding".
The alpha-thingie.. devs once told us we will always have to be prepared for changing our chars history in case of extensions. Thats quite understandable for me, but adding stuff to the setting wildly, claiming sooner or later it will be added anyway appears quite a bit off to me.
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In response to the general ideas of things that go out of the settings (such as makin up new glyphs, powers, etc) I'll say what I said before. Any power you make should have an equal consequence. If I have a sword that can slay someone in one slash because of some kind of magic spell then that sword should have a consequence like killing me as well. If I have a glyph, depending on what it does, it could simply cost me mana or it could drain away strength. You want to create a new power then create a negative consequence to go along with it till that power is represented in the game.
Now there is something that I think of when I rp fight (that Anumesa kind of touched on) and thats what seperates who is a good rper and who is a bad rper in my mind. While your character may have every IC intention to win a fight you must keep IC wantings and OOC wantings seperately. Many people get attached and don't want their character to lose OOCly. ICly not wanting to lose is fine but OOCly you must go into a fight prepared to lose. Just always saying "/me tries to stab you with a dagger" isn't good enough for you to claim to not be a god modder. You must be willing to get hit by a dagger when its your opponents turn. You must note your limits because you can't get hit everytime and keep going, its still god modding. In the end its the person who losses every match that I would rather rp with than the person who has defeated everyone he/she has gone agaisnt.
Oh and one last note for all those who still think "oh well I don't do any of that stuff he said so I'm not a god modder." One of the biggest causes of god modding that I see is when players try to force death on another player. I mean obviously when it comes to some things, like a new evil enslaving your friends, you ICly want them dead. However take that other player into consideration. Its not easy for someone to let themselves lose every fight. A lot of players I know who take that path usually get sick of it quickly because if they try to hard to win they lose (because god mod accusations) and if they don't try hard enough they lose. Its not easy to be the person everyone wants to kill and it can be really fustrating when you spend time trying to do something only to end up losing because everyone expects you to die.
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I would still say, Duraza, that just having a weakness doesn't justify giving yourself enormous power. If somebody showed up and RPed a character as powerful(though well-balanced) as my character, Phinehas... I'd be ticked off... I think there has to be a little more to accumulating power than just being able to write a backstory.
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I would still say, Duraza, that just having a weakness doesn't justify giving yourself enormous power. If somebody showed up and RPed a character as powerful(though well-balanced) as my character, Phinehas... I'd be ticked off... I think there has to be a little more to accumulating power than just being able to write a backstory.
Yeah I know. However, people are going to rp having great powers no matter what and there really isn't any way you can stop that. I rather have people make themselves also have weaknesses then just letting them run around as all powerful gods. :P
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RP fighting is one of those things that has the potential to be really awesome but, too often ends up lame, boring, and pretty pointless. In my opinion there are a few requirements that need to be met if an RP duel is even going to have a chance of turning out well.
1. A well developed character.
If a person does not know their character well enough to honestly know their limitations, then I don't see how they could duel in any manner that is realistic.
2. The maturity to actually stick with a character's limitations.
For many people, I think the temptation to suddenly RP some new found power/ability in order to avoid being defeated is too much to resist.
3. No Dice.
It just clutters things up, robs the fight of aesthetics, and in my opinion isn't necessary as long as a person meets requirements 1 and 2.
Another thought I have about RP duels is that people should at least try to make it "artistically fought" (well written). Too often I seem to see duels that go something like this:
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*Stabby Bob lunges forward with moderate power.*
[roll dice]
*Al Battle-Axe is stabbed 3 centimeters in the left shoulder.*
*Al Battle-Axe's swings his axe in a 3 foot arc at Bob's knees.*
[roll dice]
*Stabby Bob receives a shallow slice on his right knee-cap*
and so on... and so on... and so on...
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Yawn... It's about as fun as watching an old computer game "fight" against itself. This may just be personal preference but, if you are going to essentially free-style write a collaborative battle story, at least try to use the written word to it's fullest and make it interesting.
Also, I agree with people who have mentioned that it's pretty bad forum to RP a powerful character simply based on a backstory. Reputations (and often powers) are something that need to be earned through RP; any other way is just a bad shortcut.
For the record, I'm largely with Meredee and Anumesa on this one, though I don't think I am necessarily sick of RP duels... just tired of seeing bad ones.
P.S.
Not that I get why this was brought up in the first place but, I am fairly certain that Water Glyphs do actually exist in game. Pretty sure I heard they were given out in a GM event which, would obviously make them part of the game settings.
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/me looks around briefly and yanks Marqsaynt over to stand next to him.
He's with us.
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Okay I've been totally hesitant to post this..and I know you will all yell and scream and kick but it's how many have expressed to me how they feel and I guess I Got designated to post about it..I kinda feel it fits in here now pretty well..I do say I agree with Merede and Anumesa and Marsaynt all make really good points, so okay here goes...
[was originally going to post in the complaint department..but I feel it fits better here now..but still a compliant so I left this in:]
Okay I am starting this discussion, debated about putting it here or in general discussion, feel free to move it, but mainly it complaint to other players. I have had several other players comment to me on this issue so I have taken it upon myself to post about it here and see what you all think as well, and perhaps see why this is so.
Why do we spend hours upon hours training up our characters skills? I mean it seriously, you spend all that time...and then when someone else upsets your char or picks a fight. you decline. "I don't fight" "we are not a war guild" I have heard this SO many time. and I hate to say it...but if you have a name like "The Defenders of Hyldaa" [guild name changed for whatever reason] and you say that your not a guild that goes to war...umm you probably should rethink what your guild is all about or perhaps rename it. not so sure if the Peaceful defenders, would work, but worth a try. [I prefer "The Cowards...how come no one has started this guild? lol kidding]Anyways, I can't remember the last time in game, in char my char picked a fight, or pissed off someone and they actually accepted a challenge! it just does not happen anymore...its seems if someone want to fight they only want to RP it, and I tired this once...it did not really work, it was Godmode fest. The other char would not allow me to use the dice system to help, [which really does not always work well eaither but at least keeps it from two people blocking hits all day long ] but they also did not use actual spells in game, they made up spells which is frustrating because then there are no limits, what stops me from saying oh well a flying tree just did a triple flip off the ground and landed on your head. your dead. game over. But like I said I really did try to play this little game, however every one of my hits was blocked by other player, while I let hers penetrate my char, I soon realized this was pointless and we could go on for hours if not days, so I let them defeat me so I could move on. and the dice method is okay..but it also has its flaws, I mean if I spend a while training my sword skill and my opponent has none..why should we both roll the same number of dice? so that takes some planning. and as well as Marqsaynt said it clutters up the screen very quickly which is annoying..but unless you agree ooc first or something who is going to win I Think it's pretty hopeless to try without dice, cause usually I see it just goes on blocking and blocking until one gets too tired and bored of it and finally dies.
But my main complaint is why take so much time to train your char, only to decline duels?
As an outlaw (and I speak for myself here) I have taken it upon myself to always accept a duel if it is approached to me ic'ly. now if you just walk me and challenge without a word, I am a little hesitant, and there are times where I will rp out of it as well but for the most part anymore if you challenge me I am going to call you on it. I really want to know why if someone upsets you so that you wont take the challenge? or if you do something to upset my char and she wants to fight you, you still decline, but continue to upset my char. Its very frustrating to some of us when we put together a big event for out guild, such as a road block type deal, were we have a bunch of us standing in the tunnel blocking traffic, saying if your going to pass you have to pay 1 circle or give us something, or you die. as in we will kill you. and you guys, refuse to pay, and walk right though us as if we did not even stand there blocking your path, even tho you talk to us and such. Its not an unrealistic amount of tria either we are not asking for 30k or something..just a circle..and we are not mean, we do realize when someone is new, I am not even talking about them. it is very hard to play a bad guy at times with the game mechanics, especially now that it seems no one will accept a duel. Think about it, put yourself in my char's shoes, you do something to piss her off, she gets mad and wants to kick your butt, and you say no. and then sit there and act like nothing happened. its unrealistic.
What's the big fricking deal about fighting? about dying? oh yeah so you get a DP now...still big deal train up your will and carry a seduction weapon till it runs out and you can still move about. or don't be overloaded. or use this time to bug your friends in tells. I dunno. Or maybe stop upsetting other chars, only to decline.
It just seems as if something has happened recently and we have the hard core role-players or the power levelers. no in between. no wants to duel, they just want to train, train, train, or Role play. but not if that means fighting another char!
I know this is slightly off topic but I Think it kinda goes right along with it, thanks for taking the time to hear me out, now all I ask is that you don't flame me ;) and again I have had several people from several different guilds address me about most of these issues, so its' not all just me.
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But my main complaint is why take so much time to train your char, only to decline duels?
For some, training is an end in itself. They feel a sense of accomplishment from the training. They also don't find duelling fun. They play for achievement (diamonds,) not killing stuff (clubs.)
Why do some martial artists never enter tournaments? Maybe they don't enjoy them, or feel they have nothing to prove to others, or any other reason. Does that mean they shouldn't train anymore? Of course not.
It just seems as if something has happened recently and we have the hard core role-players or the power levelers. no in between.
Sure there is. They're called questers. :)
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But my main complaint is why take so much time to train your char, only to decline duels?
Personally, I have to say that I haven't seen much of this... I haven't seen many people who actually level their characters, but then refuse duels. I'll take your word for it. However I don't think you can blame hardcore RPers who don't level their characters for not wanting to get the floor wiped with themselves just because you had more time to spend clicking on monsters.
As for the rest, you have some valid points, I can only say that if you're going to post a post that's that big, you might want to avoid the rabbit trails. It's hard to make yourself read the whole thing when every couple sentences you find brackets with a little rabbit trail. Just a suggestion. You have some valid points and I wouldn't want people to skip over your post just 'cause they felt like you weren't getting to the point.
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yeah, yeah sorry I tend to just go on and on, I'll make it all pretty tomorrow I am way to tired to do that now, sorry :)
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Having the training there so you could be stronger than another guy games mechanics wise is supposedly a good thing to have but it slows down the RP
I have heard it many times
"Well you know what Rob, I know were not power levelers and all that but if i am going to be a guy that RP fights all the time, I think I should get the stats to back it up " Etc etc
Personally I find the training very boring, it takes some motivation for me.
And yes I use dice in RP fights keeps it simple, I once saw a RP fight that was other wise. And it had turned a scientific arguement in wether n enki could carry a sword using its tale or not....
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Personnaly, I don't accept any duels within view of an honorable NPC. I have had several people try to assult my characters in the tavern or in front of Harn's forge. I generally ignore them. Why? Because I seriously doubt most people have the ability to carry through with their actions. I'll give some examples.
An assult in the tavern: I refused the duel based ont he fact that Allelia was right there, and would call the guards if the tavern started to get torn appart, and that it would be stupid to do so.
Answer: I play a stupid character.
Riiiiiiight. And a stupid character who attacked people in public places where fighting is not allowed would be allowed in said places? The answer is no. So the RP is invalid because the stupid character would not be there in the first place.
Another time at the tavern a 'known' criminal tried to assult me. Why? Because that is what known criminals do... They also seem to walk right by guards and get drinks at the tavern. Not to mention this player also said there was a price on the character's head. Again, invalid. They would not be there in the first place.
Then there is the reaction aspect. Let's say that perons did attack or kill my character. What then? Will most lay low and try to avoid the law? Doubtful. They would most likely be still sitting in the tavern by the time I got out of the DR in some sort of lame RP where they were half OOC trying to explain why their character would do such a thing... yet still be in the tavern. I have also seen people ignore the call for guards because, well, they would just kill alll the guards if they came... It seems they have never heard of the domino effect. See where killing police in games like GTA gets you and you will understand. Kill a guard in PS and it should result in a permadeath order taken out on your life.
The problem rests in the players. Until the mechanics can confine fighting to realistic reactions, I'll still ignore most fights... RP or PvP. It would be OOC for my character to react to an unrealistic situation in the first place.
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/me looks around briefly and yanks Marqsaynt over to stand next to him.
He's with us.
I knew it! I knew we were going to be friends! Dude, tell me you're going to the Kappa Kappa Gamma Epsilon Astrix Delta Apostrophe party Friday?! It's- going- to- be- EPIC!!!
Bro, why are you acting like you don't remember me?
*pulls a folded picture out of his wallet*
It's me, remember?!
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii88/PhinChin/friends049.jpg)
:P
And back on topic...
UtM you bring up a good point that had also briefly occurred to me, way too many people will RP duel in places they'd never "really" duel. I honestly can't think of the last RP fight I saw that didn't take place inside the tavern or just outside of Harnquist's.
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Yeah... random and unlikely, Marqsaynt. :P
Anyway, I see UtM's point as well... I have to say that a lot of the problem stems from everybody's apparent "need" to be epic. Everybody has to be the "most powerful", or "the most evil, or "the most skilled", or have "the rarest" weapon, or have learned an "unknown" form of magic, or be worshiping a "secret and unknown god of ultimate power", or generally be the best at everything. This means that people run around trying to be epic, which leads to conflict, because, of course, not everyone can be "the best". Whereas despite the fact that Phinehas is ornery, rude, and generally unlike-able he has only ever participated in one or two actual in-game combat situations in the entire time I've been here. And they weren't particularly fun. I get more enjoyment out of RPing Phinehas' daily life, studies, and more utilitarian usage of magic than I ever have in beating the snot out of anyone(unless, perhaps, they were small and cute).
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Take it listed:
Once my char's love was killed completely unexpected (and I better wont tell how that came lol). As a result I had to rp my char roaming the wilds all alone for a whole week.
Now whats that about?
I often have the feeling people try so hard to not have their chars get killed because they, of course, just are too stubborn and prideous, but also that it could bring something they dont know, something new, something they couldnt evaluate by in advance. Right, very scary.
Getting back to my initial example, that week brought some most interesting time, as well rather new experiences and quite refreshing stuff, for both OOC and ic matters.
Superpowered chars? When I OOCly know of chars who are "obviously unable to be harmed" or are just without any weak spots, I usually keep my time playing with them low. Why? Its just boring. Maybe over 70% of all chars are of that 'prototype'-sort. Not necessarily by specific details or character's features, many even differentiate quite a bit, but it's the sheer feeling they cause: I just feel like knowing what will come next. Everybody can read and write, everybody knows of where this or that citizens is usually to be found (NPCs; by ooc knowledge), and of course.. everybody knows how to use weapons proficiently.
Rolling dices or not? I started off always using dices. Using equal odds always, then trying out rolling skills or stats. Also I tried to rp-fight without rolling at all.
The latter one is the one being most interesting and the potential of greatest excitement and fun, as there is no interruptions. But after having played that way with several people I have to conclude that this method I wont fancy unless I feel sure enough the opponent player is experienced and mature enough. I sort of had my main char being killed once, the reasons for that were comparable to what Izzy said.
Rolling always equal odds can be good fun too, but it would give both a very experienced gladiator for life and .. lets say a barmaid equal chances - quite unrealistic.
Rolling stats and skills is a nice way to go when knowing the other player had time to train up his char, according to Phinehas' comment. I mean, fighting Xeonart by rolling stats and skills wouldnt make that much sense.
UtM has an important point there, that I fully second. For the matter of completeness though I would like to add the opposite: Two parties insult each other, and right away its being called for the guards, probably the whole thing would only have ended up in a brawl. More extreme what a friend told me some time ago: He refused to 'sheath' his hammer, was considered hostile and armed, and the guards were called. So, some loose thoughts on that.. will the guards always come, and at once, if a random person shouts for them, after they were called numerous times for 'nothing'.. is there a patrol close at all, after all they may already be called to 'imprison a granma having slapped her grandson'.. whats with the people who 'constantly' shout for the guards for no acute reason?
EDIT:
What Phinehas said about the need to be epic and saving the whole world with each new day to come indeed is rather annoying. It's probably only ma personal impression, but as of late it appears to me that these things have grown. And in consequence more epic saviours have arouse to keep on track with all the other superheroes.
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Yeah... random and unlikely, Marqsaynt. :P
Okay fine, Phineas you caught me. But "random and unlikely" are two words that actually describe me pretty well. :P
What Phinehas said about the need to be epic and saving the whole world with each new day to come indeed is rather annoying. It's probably only ma personal impression, but as of late it appears to me that these things have grown. And in consequence more epic saviours have arouse to keep on track with all the other superheroes.
Velh, I've noticed the same thing and I actually think that may be one of the reasons RP fighting has become a bit of an issue. Take a healthy dose of newer players (or older players that have picked up a few bad RP habits here or there), throw in the want to be an "epic savior" or villain... and finally add the idea of RP dueling (say by watching an old fight between you and Duraza and thinking it looks cool)... mix vigorously and bake at 450 degrees for 30 minutes and viola! You have the recipe for a huge outbreak of iffy RP duels.
So, basically what I am saying is... this is all your fault Velh! (kidding of course ;))
Also, it just occurred to me that RP dueling can actually be used as a "shortcut" to create one of these "epic saviors" without really having to put in much time or effort. I get the feeling more than a few people may inadvertently have fallen into this trap, forgetting that a character really only has as much power as the community around them gives them... and that "epic-ness" takes more than just having a fancy backstory and the decided ability to rain down fireball spewing tefusangs when you wiggle your pinky finger and sneeze in an "RP" duel.
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I've got to admit i tend not to like RP fighting anymore, unless i know the other character well enough to conduct it fairly. Others i have witnessed often ended up with far too much ooc'ness (Mainly to clarify points and roll dice) and this just ends up looking messy imo. Worst case the fight ends in an all out ooc flame with arguments about turns and accusations of godmodding.
Personaly when an IC argument/fight starts, i tend to perform the early stages RP'ing, but always prefer to use game mechanics for the actual fighting, why? well i have a well trained character that i spent time making powerfull "enough" to be usefull in a fight, far from the strongest, but certainly capable.
As for disliking the grind, well it doesn't actually take that much effort (in my opinion of course :)) to create a capable character. There is a skill to using the PvP system, yes it's an ooc skill, but good rp'ers also use their ooc linguistic skills. I rarely train my main char these days as he is just as i imagine he should be now IC, any further training would detract from the character. So you really don't have to go too far with training, just enough.
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I get the feeling more than a few people may inadvertently have fallen into this trap, forgetting that a character really only has as much power as the community around them gives them... and that "epic-ness" takes more than just having a fancy backstory and the decided ability to rain down fireball spewing tefusangs when you wiggle your pinky finger and sneeze in an "RP" duel.
That's very true. Problem is, these days everybody is so intent on being epic, that they don't see any problem with other people being epic, so they let it slide. It's like a vicious circle of no accountability.
/me gets out his rocking chair and porch.
Used to be that if some newbie came along and tried to RP anything ridiculous they'd get laughed off. Nowadays everybody is so busy being ridiculous that nobody notices that everyone's being ridiculous.
I'm meticulously careful with how I RP Phinehas and the extent of his powers, so although his powers are great nobody has ever had cause to say, "Hold on a sec... you shouldn't be able to do that..." On the other hand, every time I go in-game I end up saying something of that sort(or thinking it) about at least a third of the characters I see.
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UtM you bring up a good point that had also briefly occurred to me, way too many people will RP duel in places they'd never "really" duel. I honestly can't think of the last RP fight I saw that didn't take place inside the tavern or just outside of Harnquist's.
I'm often expecting to be jumped on in a dark alley or out in the middle of nowhere ... but eventually I get bored of the waiting so I go where every self-respecting criminal in Hydlaa hangs out. The prestigeous and well protected Kada-el's tavern of course! Only to find them speaking openly of tales of their outlawness and wickedness during a few drinks. ::)
As for epic characters, well I think I can say that I have two guys who somewhat approach that area. One of them because he spent a long time growing in the ranks and gaining the influence of a military leader. Through actual situations and not a written story. He started out as an outcast blacksmith/warrior. :P The other is a bad guy created to give atheists a hard time and give others something to beat up. I'm actually not sure how epic I want him to be yet but I do know that I'm fully content with him being the bad guy that gets the living daylight kicked out of him on a daily basis. Interestingly enough everyone lets him wander about in the open and spew his fanatic religious words .. except for a few randomly unexplained duel challenges.
Aside from that I have twice that many characters who either play average joe's, miners, merchants, travellers or soldiers.
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RP fights can be far more descriptive, and thus entertaining, than duels. As long as your opponent is mature enough to understand they can lose, RP fights are the best things about RPing, and since RPing is the best part of PS...
No! Maybe for you fighting is the best thing that you can find in game, but not for me and not for many other players! Im not a violent person IRL and Im not playing a violent character IG. My char trains her swords mostly to feel safe and to be able to defend herself when somebody attacks her.
But still.. I think game needs some villains, bad mages and such. In game I often complain or swear at the outlaws, but OOCly I think it's very good they are there, it makes the game more interesting. It makes up the topics to discuss about etc. For this reason I can even RP being scared of somebody who RPs being powerful although his char is not well trained, but only IN SOME CASES - when they put enough effort in making the character powerful and only if they don't make themselves invincible.
I actually met somebody like this only once, it was Xathen. There was a whole RP around him... there was a story and some preparations done before RP. There was even a quite balanced fight without rolling dices and arguing about the results (I didnt fight very actively and the whole fight was way to long for me but I saw that some people enjoyed it and I didnt want to spoil it). We knew that he can be defeated with the blue way and those who had it, rp-ed using it against Xathen and we finally won (!!! it shows me OOC-ly that the char hasnt been created only to be there and to be powerful and smash other chars but also to entertain people and give them topics to speak about). I know IC-ly that Xathen did some bad things to other people, so now my char considers him a great risk. Maybe even not because of his super powers but because of his reputation that he worked on. I even bought blue way glyph and spent few trias on training my blue way in case I meet him again (Im backing up my eventual rp in the future).
But... when somebody attacks me just like this in the public place and starts with a killing blow, and then uses some super energy spell which blows up everyhing around, then sorry, I just can't take it too seriously. This is no RP. This is some stupid killing and trying to justify the super-forces with a cheap background. It happened to me before - few times Fesek's ex-wife was running after Fesek and me with her claymores writing about all this stabbing, hands cutting, using some super powerful spells, blah-blah-blah, and rolling without end. Sorry. This is no RP for me.
The real problem is that in standard live RPGs such characters are created and played by game masters... and I have a feeling that our Game Masters are never there. I never ever saw a light green or yellow labeled char. I play a lot but I had contact with GMs only twice in last 3 months. So we're left alone for ourselves and I think that's one of the reasons why people create these super-chars who don't have backup in stats. Or I dont know.. maybe they just like to feel powerful without paying any time to reach that?
And somebody has pointed out that not everybody has a time to train. Well, most of the players have jobs, schools, studies, families, pets, other hobbies... etc.:) As I wrote in my first post - if you want to have 5 chars, why do you need play somebody who can easily kill others just like that? Play a farmer, librarian or a barmaid.
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You're absolutely right, Meredee ... attacking someone in public without any reason other than relieving their boredom is not roleplay. You shouldn't take it serious, I wouldn't either.
As for Game Masters, unfortunately they've taken a not so beneficial approach to events which resulted in the 'reward fever'. Every time a yellow label appears people start throwing themselves at their feet, completely ignoring roleplay and how their characters would act normally and just hoping to get that special item, nobody else can get. This, in my opinion, makes it very hard for GMs to create good roleplay situations. Even though they try their best.
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My 2 Tria:
I learned to RP-duel from Farren first, so I learned how to do it WITHOUT dice before I learned anything about dicefighting. Non-dice RPdueling is definitely the way to go if you know what you are doing; however, nobody said it was easy! Here are some concrete hints from my RPdueling experience.
1) Confining all the duel-related OOC chatter to a group is very helpful (however, it is also hard to do, especially when you have people watching the fight).
2) Be willing to have your character take a few licks every now and then, even if you have a char who is as well-trained as Kaerli is (Casewen probably remembers when he stabbed Kaerli in her thigh with a training-dagger during their one and only sparring match!).
3) Be detailed, yet artistic in your actions, while allowing the opposing player a chance to react. Make certain to specify which body part the attack is coming from, what body part on the opponent is being attacked, and what kind of attack (punch, thrust, slash, stab, knee, ...) is being performed; however, you also need to preserve the flow of the chatbox. Ideally, the chatbox in RP should be readable almost like a book.
4) Don't assume that because your character can't do something, that nobody else can do that thing. For instance, Kaerli's melee-fighting style relies on jointlocks instead of punching and kicking alone. It is highly effective at subduing would-be assailants, but it can also lead to some OOC confusion about what is going on, as not many people can visualize what happens when someone's elbow is bent backwards past the fully-extended position. This also holds true for magic...
5) Be cognizant of where blades hit and also how deep the blows cut. A slash can be stopped short by armor and/or bones, for instance. Blade length and profile also influence wounds.
P.S. The problem with dicing (short for dicefighting) is that there is no such thing as a totally fair dice system. For instance, simply /rolling d6 penalizes strong, skilled warriors (such as Kaerli) excessively, while stats rolls don't work well with characters who may not be statistically strong, yet are skilled fighters anyhow.
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And somebody has pointed out that not everybody has a time to train. Well, most of the players have jobs, schools, studies, families, pets, other hobbies... etc.:) As I wrote in my first post - if you want to have 5 chars, why do you need play somebody who can easily kill others just like that? Play a farmer, librarian or a barmaid.
And a Yulbar pet store owner, i'm sticking to that one, we need a pet store. pets are underappreciated in RP, fights included in the future (/pet attack :))
ok ok slightly off-topic
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Yeah, uh...just clarification, that attack on Meredee wasn't to relieve boredom, that had a reason. I even explained that to her (No, I'm not the guy the actually attacked her).
My 2 Tria:
I learned to RP-duel from Farren first, so I learned how to do it WITHOUT dice before I learned anything about dicefighting. Non-dice RPdueling is definitely the way to go if you know what you are doing; however, nobody said it was easy! Here are some concrete hints from my RPdueling experience.
1) Confining all the duel-related OOC chatter to a group is very helpful (however, it is also hard to do, especially when you have people watching the fight).
2) Be willing to have your character take a few licks every now and then, even if you have a char who is as well-trained as Kaerli is (Casewen probably remembers when he stabbed Kaerli in her thigh with a training-dagger during their one and only sparring match!).
3) Be detailed, yet artistic in your actions, while allowing the opposing player a chance to react. Make certain to specify which body part the attack is coming from, what body part on the opponent is being attacked, and what kind of attack (punch, thrust, slash, stab, knee, ...) is being performed; however, you also need to preserve the flow of the chatbox. Ideally, the chatbox in RP should be readable almost like a book.
4) Don't assume that because your character can't do something, that nobody else can do that thing. For instance, Kaerli's melee-fighting style relies on jointlocks instead of punching and kicking alone. It is highly effective at subduing would-be assailants, but it can also lead to some OOC confusion about what is going on, as not many people can visualize what happens when someone's elbow is bent backwards past the fully-extended position. This also holds true for magic...
5) Be cognizant of where blades hit and also how deep the blows cut. A slash can be stopped short by armor and/or bones, for instance. Blade length and profile also influence wounds.
P.S. The problem with dicing (short for dicefighting) is that there is no such thing as a totally fair dice system. For instance, simply /rolling d6 penalizes strong, skilled warriors (such as Kaerli) excessively, while stats rolls don't work well with characters who may not be statistically strong, yet are skilled fighters anyhow.
Somehow I get that this post was to promote Kaerli's fighting skill. :P
But I agree. The chatbox in all of the RP fights I'm in are always a line from a book, then after that a Q&A session that's just ridiculous. It's not so much being descriptive, it's just knowing how to read.
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[Crap, been a while since I've double posted >< Delete this please]
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No! Maybe for you fighting is the best thing that you can find in game, but not for me and not for many other players! Im not a violent person IRL and Im not playing a violent character IG. My char trains her swords mostly to feel safe and to be able to defend herself when somebody attacks her.
Why are you a member of "The Warriors" again? :P Perhaps if you want to be left in peace it'd be helpful joining a more peaceful organisation.
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But my main complaint is why take so much time to train your char, only to decline duels?
While I never max my characters out I do try and train and I still decline duels. My first reason is because I simply like my characters to have stats appropriate to what they role play. All my stats are admittedly not up to date for every character but I try. Secondly since most characters that I do spend time fighting with are mages I never duel because I'll obviously lose.... :P
No! Maybe for you fighting is the best thing that you can find in game, but not for me and not for many other players!
As I wrote in my first post - if you want to have 5 chars, why do you need play somebody who can easily kill others just like that? Play a farmer, librarian or a barmaid.
Think about what your saying here. While I agree with the majority of your post I'd just like to point these two things out. If fighting is the best thing someone can find ingame then why suggest to them to play as an obvious normal person who they most likely won't enjoy rping as and give up on the next day? Yeah, there are a lot of people taking the role of the killer, villain, hero, etc. No matter what role you take you shouldn't be able to easily cause slaughter everywhere. At the same time though because some enjoy rp fighting and they happen to have all their characters for that person can you really be mad at them? Its like someone telling you that you need to start slaying people randomly. You'll just end up being sick of this game quickly.
Yes, everyone says there are too many people playing the "epic" villian or hero. Your probably right however I don't see that as a problem. People will always go for those roles no matter how much we argue and saying "You can't be the hero because there are already 5 other heros" won't work. Besides I don't think the amount is really the problem. I think the problem is too many of these people are out to "win the game." There are too many epic people who are not roleplaying these roles for the entertainment of themselves and other players. They are doing it because they want their characters to have some kind of power no one else has. They want to somehow be higher than other players. However rp god mods aren't the only problem. This whole thing in my mind is double sidded, the other side being pvp god mods. In most leveling MMORPG's people sit around leveling for hours in order to achieve this same goal. They want to "beat the game." They want their character to be stronger than all other characters to have some kind of leverage over them. It happens here on planeshift and no matter which kind of god modder you are your just as bad as everyone else.
The solution to this? When game mechanics and rp work together which won't be happening anytime soon. Till then you might as well keep fighting restricted to the groups of people you can trust. For the most part the game is already seperated like that. Its when those groups try to mingle that trouble causes :P
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Why are you a member of "The Warriors" again? :P Perhaps if you want to be left in peace it'd be helpful joining a more peaceful organisation.
I'm in The Warriors, because I met some nice people from this guild and then when I felt it's a good time to finally decide for a guild I picked them :)
I think it's the most common reason for joining a guild in PS.
If fighting is the best thing someone can find ingame then why suggest to them to play as an obvious normal person
Well... I didn't want to suggest playing Quake ;)
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I'm in The Warriors, because I met some nice people from this guild and then when I felt it's a good time to finally decide for a guild I picked them :)
I think it's the most common reason for joining a guild in PS.
*sigh* ... sadly ...
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Why are you a member of "The Warriors" again? :P Perhaps if you want to be left in peace it'd be helpful joining a more peaceful organisation.
I'm in The Warriors, because I met some nice people from this guild and then when I felt it's a good time to finally decide for a guild I picked them :)
I think it's the most common reason for joining a guild in PS.
It is the most common reason. I'm not going to say its wrong but I think when you join a guild it should be because you have alike goals, not because all your friends there and you want to hang out with them. Its like if you have a perfectly normal character who is kind and likes to help others with no fighting ability and then you try to join a guild called The Hydlaa Guard which prides itself of ridding the city and the roads connecting to it of evil and rogues. When everyone asks you why you joined you say "Because a lot of my friends are there" and it sounds kinda like a silly reason. Guilds aren't just groups of friends who roam around together with no specific purpose. You can have friends in a guild but you join it to help achieve their goals...
Of course like you said it is the most common reason so what I say won't stop anyone :P
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It is the most common reason. I'm not going to say its wrong but I think when you join a guild it should be because you have alike goals, not because all your friends there and you want to hang out with them. Its like if you have a perfectly normal character who is kind and likes to help others with no fighting ability and then you try to join a guild called The Hydlaa Guard which prides itself of ridding the city and the roads connecting to it of evil and rogues. When everyone asks you why you joined you say "Because a lot of my friends are there" and it sounds kinda like a silly reason. Guilds aren't just groups of friends who roam around together with no specific purpose. You can have friends in a guild but you join it to help achieve their goals...
Of course like you said it is the most common reason so what I say won't stop anyone :P
:offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic:
Heh. Since the topic is not "Why did Meredee is in The Warriors guild" I simplified my answer and to be honest I dont think it is a right place to discuss it :) You can ask me about it IC. Besides, what you say about how to choose a guild is very idealistic and not really close to reality. I spent a lot of time looking for a right guild and all seemed to have the same goals: help eachother & have fun together. But this is offtopic, its almost as bad as lot of OOC in main, lets stop it :)
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It isn't off topic, really. If you join a guild named The Warriors, and say that you trained swords to defend yourself, why are you complaining about being attacked? That's just not logical. In the tutorial it even said that it was a law to be able to protect yourself and your property anyway, and as far as I'm concerned, you should play along with being attacked. In real life you can't just tell a guy mugging you, "Come back later, I'm busy"...that's just not realistic.
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okay wow! so much to respond to I hope I Remember all this..first off a bit off topic but from something you said Suno I now know who is the guys's boss that was hired to kill Merede :P also
A point I think Zan made....about waiting out in the wilderness..exactly no one is out there other than to mine gold, and if you try to stop them they just run right past you. Everyone knows that if you want to find a role player you go to Harns or the Tavern. yeah about OOC to pick a fight there but we don't have much choice, usually if I can I try to pick the fight there and then convince them to go to the north gate or something. If I do fight in the city I am willing to accept any inconveniences towards my char if the guards are called, or whatever.
The other thing I liked, Can't remember now who said it, but they said they like to RP most the fight and then actually use the PvP to determine the outcome and such, yes I really agree with you here, and really that's all I am asking for.. Because I do like to RP the fight to some extent, I just get tired of having my char god moded by someone with unrealistic powers that is invincible.
I would also like to point out, that Izzabella is not a maxed char, yes she is strong and I've worked very hard on her (twice :P) but to be honest I hate training..its SO boring. I usually take along a friend and RP and or bug my friends in tells to pass the time. But I decided a long time ago that if I was going to RP a mean, tough fenki she was going to have be able to back that up with her swords. I don't know maybe I am beating a dead horse with a stick now..
And Suno your last post here, yeah I touched on that a bit too..I am slightly annoyed with all the tough "warrior' type guilds (not the warriors specifically but guilds that in their names suggest they would fight, if for nothing else the good of Yliakum) and you get in a fight with a member and take time to RP a lot of stuff only to talk to the leader and get "oh we are not as war guild" seriously now..think about your name then. but anyways..
I just wanted to thank you all for you opinions and all you have helped me see the other side which is really what I wanted to try and understand. Also thanks for you time to read all this and even respond, I appreciate it.
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It is the most common reason. I'm not going to say its wrong but I think when you join a guild it should be because you have alike goals, not because all your friends there and you want to hang out with them. Its like if you have a perfectly normal character who is kind and likes to help others with no fighting ability and then you try to join a guild called The Hydlaa Guard which prides itself of ridding the city and the roads connecting to it of evil and rogues. When everyone asks you why you joined you say "Because a lot of my friends are there" and it sounds kinda like a silly reason. Guilds aren't just groups of friends who roam around together with no specific purpose. You can have friends in a guild but you join it to help achieve their goals...
Of course like you said it is the most common reason so what I say won't stop anyone :P
:offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic:
Heh. Since the topic is not "Why did Meredee is in The Warriors guild" I simplified my answer and to be honest I dont think it is a right place to discuss it :) You can ask me about it IC. Besides, what you say about how to choose a guild is very idealistic and not really close to reality. I spent a lot of time looking for a right guild and all seemed to have the same goals: help eachother & have fun together. But this is offtopic, its almost as bad as lot of OOC in main, lets stop it :)
I'll respect that wish but would just like to mention that you need to realize that the IC goals of the guild can and most likely will get you into more IC trouble. Thats why, though "idealistic" as you put it, its important that people realize two things. Firstly to choose a guild that suits your character and secondly you don't need to join a guild to play the game.
The other thing I liked, Can't remember now who said it, but they said they like to RP most the fight and then actually use the PvP to determine the outcome and such, yes I really agree with you here, and really that's all I am asking for.. Because I do like to RP the fight to some extent, I just get tired of having my char god moded by someone with unrealistic powers that is invincible.
Eh I'm still agaisnt pvp so I have some advice for rp fighting agaisnt people who act "invincible." Simply don't give into them. Now if they are saying "/me hits you in the head with great force" and they refuse to change that sentence to "tries to hit you" then they are a lost cause period. Don't bother. No one should be able to force actions upon you. If they are rping some kind of super power don't let them feel as if you need to rp your character as inferior. If someone says "/me attacks in the blink of an eye, trying to cut off your head" I'd simply OOCly make the judgement that no one can "attack in the blink of an eye" and say back "/me dodges to the side." If they start with you OOCly saying "how'd you dodge something so quick" you go with "I decide how my character reacts, not you."
Never let someones story about their character and his/her amaing and or supernatural powers let you feel as if you need to rp your character weaker compared to them. Just because you have a special trait it doesn't mean that I can't beat you. Its your choice to decide how powerful a character measures up to your own. Its god modish and I wouldn't advise you use this against everyone as then you will quickly become a god modder. However if you have an annoying god modder I'd suggest this as the way to deal with them ICly.
Just remember that while you don't have to rp being weaker than someone you don't have to rp being stronger than them as well. You decide if you are weaker than someone else but no one can decide themself to be stronger ;)
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I spent a lot of time looking for a right guild and all seemed to have the same goals: help eachother & have fun together.
Not right! Those are the guilds that usually seem to shine over others, which doesn't mean they are the only ones, let alone the right ones... Perhaps you should have seeked a little deeper :p
Sorry, I couldn't resist ^_^
It isn't off topic, really. If you join a guild named The Warriors, and say that you trained swords to defend yourself, why are you complaining about being attacked? That's just not logical. In the tutorial it even said that it was a law to be able to protect yourself and your property anyway, and as far as I'm concerned, you should play along with being attacked. In real life you can't just tell a guy mugging you, "Come back later, I'm busy"...that's just not realistic.
It is off topic, and personal.
And this is not real life, it's a game and you have the right to decide who to play it with, don't you?
You don't play with powerlevers and decline duels because you don't think it's he right way to play it, she may think otherwise and you ought to accept it as well. As simple.
But back to topic:
The biggest problem I see with RP fights, (and here I have to agree with Anumesa, all these last events have made me pretty sick of it all) is that most roleplayers involved in such kind of fights are unable to step out of their characters and gather a general point of view towards the whole game and the rest of the players. It doesn't really matter if your character dies, if this other character dies, or if all run away and the next day they take some beers at Kada El's altogether. When we decide to RP-fight we are mostly saying: dueling mechanics are yet in a very early state of development and we want to have fun with a fight for we are DEALING a way to make it FUN. Methods are unimportant if you are going to fight against a player you know well and are aware that will be using common sense. Sadly this is not the case most often because some players don't realise that what really cares is that EVERYBODY should be having fun with it, not only the ones who play supernaturally powerful characters and that are always meant to win. When there is a set winner beforehand the fight itself has no sense, the loosing party could all /die and that would make it much smoother and probably avoid the ooc rantings and consequences some of these fights have been bringing as of late.
Why do I vote for dice rolls in an RP fight?
Well, it's quite true that considering the already big amount of ooc comments needed to take one of these fights to a pleasant outcome, dice rolls do usually increase such and make it uglier. However, as I mentioned above not everybody is the kind of player who would even take a scratch, or who is about to let you make a move, or is playing a balanced character who may have flaws and even (oh my!!) some weaknesses. Therefore, I'd rather find a previous agreement among the players who are going to partake (in group chat or elsewhere, occ) about what dice to roll and how in each situation. I personally like to support my RP with training but I'm totally aware that not everybody has the same amount of time I do/had to train a character so I try to give every character the relevance their backgrounds drive me to (not meaning you can create a character and come to me pretending it's godlike just because you made a fancy description -.-). For instance, if you play a character who is skilled in weapon fighting and you are facing a powerful mage, it would make sense to me that you are rolling a s15 die for weapon attacks while he rolls a s10 and viceversa, you'd roll a s10 for defending from his s15 magic rolls. And why are rolls necessary at all? To avoid stuff like this (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=30903.0), even though when you play a godlike character dice may not help either, as you'd be rolling always more sides than your opponent ;)
The reason why non-rolled RP fights become a mess most of the time is because the third time a player realises he kept taking attacks for the sake of balance but none of his hit the target because such has a surprisingly incredible skill in avoiding absolutely everything, that player tends to be driven to either let himself be killed to stop the madness or start acting godlike himself.
As long as not everybody realises that balance is critical for providing a pleasant experience for everybody this problem will remain.
Why am I not fond of pvp dueling anymore?
Luck. Lag. Powerleveling. Mechanics' early development. Lack of fun. Lack of realism.
Luck, lag and powerleveling deserve no more comments.
Mechanics' early development: As it's already been pointed out before, magics have no place in nowadays' dueling, neither armors or weapons have a realistic effect on the wielder. Examples: Players with lvl 60 in heavy armor will just move as quick as a player with lvl 60 (max. at this point) in leather armor, but instead will take MUCH less damage. You can nail a plate armor with a dagger just as good if not better than with a claymore. Etc...
Lack of fun: I've been into dueling for long and I've as well seen how roleplayed pvp duels happen and end. Normally, you spend some time trying to evaluate the lag in whatever map you are, then try to time your attacks if you can figure where the other player really is, then at some point you may have enough luck to hit your opponent and with some more luck, double hit and get rid of him with only one strike (usually after some minutes of running around). When such thing is done, the winning player normally will not roleplay any sort of harm suffered but most likely outer some taunts and brag about how strong he is, not even considering the chance of having been hurt or even scratched (hey, their HP is at 100%!). In an RP-fight there is rarely an unwounded character and even winners usually are hurt, if not have lost a part of their body, or suffered changes that will affect the future of that specific character and its surroundings.
Lack of realism: Honestly, sorting any roleplay having two people run around and jump like mad (maybe aimlessly!) with a huge sword in each hand doesn't make any sense to the viewer or other roleplayers involved, and if that would happen in the real world both would probably be caught and shut in an asylum for life :p
A dueler may bring another point of view: Such situation may be as stupid-looking as two people facing eachother, doing apparently nothing but using a chat box to type in. however, here does join something that may have never been considered by them: Imagination ;)
As a sidenote: I must thank Duraza/Xeonart for making of every single RP-fight a very exciting (and fair!) time. Respect! \o/
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It isn't off topic, really. If you join a guild named The Warriors, and say that you trained swords to defend yourself, why are you complaining about being attacked? That's just not logical.
Exactly! I trained my swords so that I can use them. Rolling dices doesn't give the possibility to do it.
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But you yourself said that we need stats in order to RP fight to begin with. So then with all of this sword training, shouldn't that give you some sort of advantage in an RP fight? I don't mean a dice fight, but just an RP fight.
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I've always wondered this.. and you can laugh me up if you want...
Why with PvP you run around leaping like a frigging ballet...why not stand and exchange blows like you do with a creature? OKay, so it'll be a little more boring to watch, but there's no calculating when to hit, blah blah blah... And I mean hey, if you can use a mixture of spells/weapons/armors to make it more interesting. Or, wait, here's an idea...RP while you stand still and hack and slack at each other...my god what an idea. Of course that's no fun.
There's a reason why this topic has its own child board. (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?board=21.0) IT WILL NEVER DIE. So this thread is gonna keep going, because like politics, PvP is very much a personal opinion and quite frankly the otherside will always be wrong and there'll never be a compromise. So yeh..keep dueling it out among yourselves...it'll end when you're all dead..OH WAIT that's right no permadeath...dangit.
But yeh, don't listen to me...I don't PvP...
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Hehe liadan I wondered the same thing when I started. it takes some skill to dodge and run about and hit your opponent makes it last a bit longer..now however as for me...I agree with Noriin.. its all luck.. have no timing.. (however some do..I Just suck at timing) I have no strategy.. but to me its fun. I learn ways to do things and work around other things. so in the end it works. and hey if I die.. its no big deal, I keep the RP going, and move on. but yeah I SO remember that Liadan with my first fight with Elvi, who was way stronger than me anyways, I kept thinking if he'd just hold still... but he never did.. hehe. anyways I think your also right on the other issue..this topic is just going to keep going on forever..
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That's because everything that was worthwhile to say was said in the first two pages. :D :P
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I'd like to also say that if the current combat mechanic is a problem, why don't we IMPROVE IT? And also, a lot of people aren't willing to ask to learn things like RPdueling: so if you don't know how to RPduel and want to, just ask around!!!!
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I'd like to also say that if the current combat mechanic is a problem, why don't we IMPROVE IT?
Did you seriously just say that? How many times do the devs have to say that they are working on everything? It's not like they're sitting there thinking, "Well, we have a really good combat system all ready to be implemented, but hey... people seem to like the crappy one, so let's just leave it!" Things will improve with time.
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First off, I would like to thank Meredee for mentioning Xathen. ;) Was not an easy task bringing something like that into PS without everyone raising hackles.
Secondly... RP'ing is what sends PlaneShift apart from virtually every other MMO out there. I think this has been stated plenty of times already, but it sets the frame of reference.
Now, I'm in total agreement with everyone who's said RP-bouts need to be done in a mature manner. What I have noticed, and what hasn't been mentioned yet (that I've seen) is the different styles of RP'ing a fight. I submit for your review the three basic types I've observed:
-The Blurb
-The Clinical
-The Novelist
Blurb writers are of the type that Marqsaynt (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=31311.msg359773#msg359773) mentioned, except sans dice. Brief post, not terribly descriptive, and often difficult to envision the battle. But my only real dislike of this method is that often, it turns into an RP 'race' as each duelist tries to speed-post and gives his opponent no time to react. I'm sorry to say that it was just such a fight that gave Kieve his first taste of RP fighting in-game.
Clinical writers are more of the sort Kaerli mentioned - writing out exactly what happens with precision. Easy to envision, but without the 'flow' of combat. This approach might be best against folks who OOC'ly don't want their characters to fail, since it seems to force a distancing between player and character as you sit back and examine each move. Akin to sitting up in the booth, watching from the stands as your avataars go at it. Or maybe that's just my experience.
The Novelist, the category I tend to fall into, writes too damn much. XD They try to account for and reply to each move with a writer's finesse. It makes for fine reading, even in log form, and helps draw you in to the battle, same as reading a book would, but with its own drawbacks - namely, the fighting moves at a snail's pace. Posts come slowly, and require a lot of reading at each round, not to mention that it can be easy to miss something if you're not careful (which opens itself up for OOC arguements).
I'm not about to say one is better than another, necessarily, though I do have my own preference. Yes, we all have our own opinions about PVP (in either form, via RP or mechanic), but for my part I find a roleplay environment to be a writer's landscape - and in that context, may the best writer win. ;)
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I'm not about to say one is better than another, necessarily, though I do have my own preference. Yes, we all have our own opinions about PVP (in either form, via RP or mechanic), but for my part I find a roleplay environment to be a writer's landscape - and in that context, may the best writer win. ;)
Underthemoon The Conqueror! Hmm...
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I'm not about to say one is better than another, necessarily, though I do have my own preference. Yes, we all have our own opinions about PVP (in either form, via RP or mechanic), but for my part I find a roleplay environment to be a writer's landscape - and in that context, may the best writer win. ;)
Underthemoon The Conqueror! Hmm...
Good post, Kieve. I actually would fall in between 2 and 3 the way you described it :o I do advocate for detail in actions, but just well-written detail, not meaningless streams of numbers.
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death to another repeated thread.