RP fights vs. game mechanics

[Izzabella]

Okay I've been totally hesitant to post this..and I know you will all yell and scream and kick but it's how many have expressed to me how they feel and I guess I Got designated to post about it..I kinda feel it fits in here now pretty well..I do say I agree with Merede and Anumesa and Marsaynt all make really good points, so okay here goes...
[was originally going to post in the complaint department..but I feel it fits better here now..but still a compliant so I left this in:]
Okay I am starting this discussion, debated about putting it here or in general discussion, feel free to move it, but mainly it complaint to other players. I have had several other players comment to me on this issue so I have taken it upon myself to post about it here and see what you all think as well, and perhaps see why this is so.

Why do we spend hours upon hours training up our characters skills? I mean it seriously, you spend all that time...and then when someone else upsets your char or picks a fight. you decline. "I don't fight" "we are not a war guild" I have heard this SO many time. and I hate to say it...but if you have a name like "The Defenders of Hyldaa" [guild name changed for whatever reason] and you say that your not a guild that goes to war...umm you probably should rethink what your guild is all about or perhaps rename it. not so sure if the Peaceful defenders,  would work, but worth a try.  [I prefer "The Cowards...how come no one has started this guild? lol kidding]Anyways, I can't remember the last time in game, in char my char picked a fight, or pissed off someone and they actually accepted a challenge!  it just does not happen anymore...its seems if someone want to fight they only want to RP it, and I tired this once...it did not really work, it was Godmode fest. The other char would not allow me to use the dice system to help, [which really does not always work well eaither but at least keeps it from two people blocking hits all day long ] but they also did not use actual spells in game, they made up spells which is frustrating because then there are no limits, what stops me from saying oh well a flying tree just did a triple flip off the ground and landed on your head. your dead. game over. But like I said I really did try to play this little game, however every one of my hits was blocked by other player, while I let hers penetrate my char, I soon realized this was pointless and we could go on for hours if not days, so I let them defeat me so I could move on. and the dice method is okay..but it also has its flaws, I mean if I spend a while training my sword skill and my opponent has none..why should we both roll the same number of dice? so that takes some planning. and as well as Marqsaynt said it clutters up the screen very quickly which is annoying..but unless you agree ooc first or something who is going to win I Think it's pretty hopeless to try without dice, cause usually I see it just goes on blocking and blocking until one gets too tired and bored of it and finally dies.

But my main complaint is why take so much time to train your char, only to decline duels?

As an outlaw (and I speak for myself here) I have taken it upon myself to always accept a duel if it is approached to me ic'ly. now if you just walk me and challenge without a word, I am a little hesitant, and there are times where I will rp out of it as well but for the most part anymore if you challenge me I am going to call you on it.  I really want to know why if someone upsets you so that you wont take the challenge? or if you do something to upset my char and she wants to fight you, you still decline, but continue to upset my char. Its very frustrating to some of us when we put together a big event for out guild, such as a road block type deal, were we have a bunch of us standing in the tunnel blocking traffic, saying if your going to pass you have to pay 1 circle or give us something, or you die.  as in we will kill you. and you guys, refuse to pay, and walk right though us as if we did not even stand there blocking your path, even tho you talk to us and such. Its not an unrealistic amount of tria either we are not asking for 30k or something..just a circle..and we are not mean, we do realize when someone is new, I am not even talking about them. it is very hard to play a bad guy at times with the game mechanics, especially now that it seems no one will accept a duel. Think about it, put yourself in my char's shoes, you do something to piss her off, she gets mad and wants to kick your butt, and you say no. and then sit there and act like nothing happened. its unrealistic.
What's the big fricking deal about fighting? about dying? oh yeah so you get a DP now...still big deal train up your will and carry a seduction weapon till it runs out and you can still move about. or don't be overloaded. or use this time to bug your friends in tells. I dunno. Or maybe stop upsetting other chars, only to decline.

It just seems as if something has happened recently and we have the hard core role-players or the power levelers. no in between. no wants to duel, they just want to train, train, train, or Role play. but not if that means fighting another char!

I know this is slightly off topic but I Think it kinda goes right along with it, thanks for taking the time to hear me out, now all I ask is that you don't flame me and again I have had several people from several different guilds address me about most of these issues, so its' not all just me.

[Jeraphon]

But my main complaint is why take so much time to train your char, only to decline duels?

For some, training is an end in itself. They feel a sense of accomplishment from the training. They also don't find duelling fun. They play for achievement (diamonds,) not killing stuff (clubs.)

Why do some martial artists never enter tournaments? Maybe they don't enjoy them, or feel they have nothing to prove to others, or any other reason. Does that mean they shouldn't train anymore? Of course not.

It just seems as if something has happened recently and we have the hard core role-players or the power levelers. no in between.

Sure there is. They're called questers.

[Phinehas]

But my main complaint is why take so much time to train your char, only to decline duels?

Personally, I have to say that I haven't seen much of this... I haven't seen many people who actually level their characters, but then refuse duels. I'll take your word for it. However I don't think you can blame hardcore RPers who don't level their characters for not wanting to get the floor wiped with themselves just because you had more time to spend clicking on monsters.

As for the rest, you have some valid points, I can only say that if you're going to post a post that's that big, you might want to avoid the rabbit trails. It's hard to make yourself read the whole thing when every couple sentences you find brackets with a little rabbit trail. Just a suggestion. You have some valid points and I wouldn't want people to skip over your post just 'cause they felt like you weren't getting to the point.

[Izzabella]

yeah, yeah sorry I tend to just go on and on, I'll make it all pretty tomorrow I am way to tired to do that now, sorry

[RoberetGoldsmith]

Having the training there so you could be stronger than another guy games mechanics wise is  supposedly  a good thing to have but it slows down the RP

I have heard it many times

"Well you know what Rob, I know were not power levelers and all that but if i am going to be a guy that RP fights all the time, I think I should get the stats to back it up " Etc etc

Personally I find the training very boring, it takes some motivation for me.

And yes I use dice in RP fights keeps it simple, I once saw  a RP fight  that was other wise. And it had  turned  a scientific arguement in wether n enki could carry a sword using its tale or not....

[Under the moon]

Personnaly, I don't accept any duels within view of an honorable NPC. I have had several people try to assult my characters in the tavern or in front of Harn's forge. I generally ignore them. Why? Because I seriously doubt most people have the ability to carry through with their actions. I'll give some examples.

An assult in the tavern: I refused the duel based ont he fact that Allelia was right there, and would call the guards if the tavern started to get torn appart, and that it would be stupid to do so.

Answer: I play a stupid character.

Riiiiiiight. And a stupid character who attacked people in public places where fighting is not allowed would be allowed in said places? The answer is no. So the RP is invalid because the stupid character would not be there in the first place.

Another time at the tavern a 'known' criminal tried to assult me. Why? Because that is what known criminals do... They also seem to walk right by guards and get drinks at the tavern. Not to mention this player also said there was a price on the character's head. Again, invalid. They would not be there in the first place.

Then there is the reaction aspect. Let's say that perons did attack or kill my character. What then? Will most lay low and try to avoid the law? Doubtful. They would most likely be still sitting in the tavern by the time I got out of the DR in some sort of lame RP where they were half OOC trying to explain why their character would do such a thing... yet still be in the tavern. I have also seen people ignore the call for guards because, well, they would just kill alll the guards if they came... It seems they have never heard of the domino effect. See where killing police in games like GTA gets you and you will understand. Kill a guard in PS and it should result in a permadeath order taken out on your life.

The problem rests in the players. Until the mechanics can confine fighting to realistic reactions, I'll still ignore most fights... RP or PvP. It would be OOC for my character to react to an unrealistic situation in the first place.

[Marqsaynt]

* Phinehas looks around briefly and yanks Marqsaynt over to stand next to him.

He's with us.

I knew it! I knew we were going to be friends! Dude, tell me you're going to the Kappa Kappa Gamma Epsilon Astrix Delta Apostrophe party Friday?! It's- going- to- be- EPIC!!!

Bro, why are you acting like you don't remember me?

*pulls a folded picture out of his wallet*

It's me, remember?!





And back on topic...

UtM you bring up a good point that had also briefly occurred to me, way too many people will RP duel in places they'd never "really" duel. I honestly can't think of the last RP fight I saw that didn't take place inside the tavern or just outside of Harnquist's.

[Phinehas]

Yeah... random and unlikely, Marqsaynt.

Anyway, I see UtM's point as well... I have to say that a lot of the problem stems from everybody's apparent "need" to be epic. Everybody has to be the "most powerful", or "the most evil, or "the most skilled", or have "the rarest" weapon, or have learned an "unknown" form of magic, or be worshiping a "secret and unknown god of ultimate power", or generally be the best at everything. This means that people run around trying to be epic, which leads to conflict, because, of course, not everyone can be "the best". Whereas despite the fact that Phinehas is ornery, rude, and generally unlike-able he has only ever participated in one or two actual in-game combat situations in the entire time I've been here. And they weren't particularly fun. I get more enjoyment out of RPing Phinehas' daily life, studies, and more utilitarian usage of magic than I ever have in beating the snot out of anyone(unless, perhaps, they were small and cute).

[Velh Krome]

Take it listed:

Once my char's love was killed completely unexpected (and I better wont tell how that came lol). As a result I had to rp my char roaming the wilds all alone for a whole week.
Now whats that about?
I often have the feeling people try so hard to not have their chars get killed because they, of course, just are too stubborn and prideous, but also that it could bring something they dont know, something new, something they couldnt evaluate by in advance. Right, very scary.
Getting back to my initial example, that week brought some most interesting time, as well rather new experiences and quite refreshing stuff, for both OOC and ic matters.

Superpowered chars? When I OOCly know of chars who are "obviously unable to be harmed" or are just without any weak spots, I usually keep my time playing with them low. Why? Its just boring. Maybe over 70% of all chars are of that 'prototype'-sort. Not necessarily by specific details or character's features, many even differentiate quite a bit, but it's the sheer feeling they cause: I just feel like knowing what will come next. Everybody can read and write, everybody knows of where this or that citizens is usually to be found (NPCs; by ooc knowledge), and of course.. everybody knows how to use weapons proficiently.

Rolling dices or not? I started off always using dices. Using equal odds always, then trying out rolling skills or stats. Also I tried to rp-fight without rolling at all.
The latter one is the one being most interesting and the potential of greatest excitement and fun, as there is no interruptions. But after having played that way with several people I have to conclude that this method I wont fancy unless I feel sure enough the opponent player is experienced and mature enough. I sort of had my main char being killed once, the reasons for that were comparable to what Izzy said.
Rolling always equal odds can be good fun too, but it would give both a very experienced gladiator for life and .. lets say a barmaid equal chances - quite unrealistic.
Rolling stats and skills is a nice way to go when knowing the other player had time to train up his char, according to Phinehas' comment. I mean, fighting Xeonart by rolling stats and skills wouldnt make that much sense.

UtM has an important point there, that I fully second. For the matter of completeness though I would like to add the opposite: Two parties insult each other, and right away its being called for the guards, probably the whole thing would only have ended up in a brawl. More extreme what a friend told me some time ago: He refused to 'sheath' his hammer, was considered hostile and armed, and the guards were called. So, some loose thoughts on that.. will the guards always come, and at once, if a random person shouts for them, after they were called numerous times for 'nothing'.. is there a patrol close at all, after all they may already be called to 'imprison a granma having slapped her grandson'.. whats with the people who 'constantly' shout for the guards for no acute reason?

EDIT:
What Phinehas said about the need to be epic and saving the whole world with each new day to come indeed is rather annoying. It's probably only ma personal impression, but as of late it appears to me that these things have grown. And in consequence more epic saviours have arouse to keep on track with all the other superheroes.

[Marqsaynt]

Yeah... random and unlikely, Marqsaynt.

Okay fine, Phineas you caught me. But "random and unlikely" are two words that actually describe me pretty well.

What Phinehas said about the need to be epic and saving the whole world with each new day to come indeed is rather annoying. It's probably only ma personal impression, but as of late it appears to me that these things have grown. And in consequence more epic saviours have arouse to keep on track with all the other superheroes.

Velh, I've noticed the same thing and I actually think that may be one of the reasons RP fighting has become a bit of an issue. Take a healthy dose of newer players (or older players that have picked up a few bad RP habits here or there), throw in the want to be an "epic savior" or villain... and finally add the idea of RP dueling (say by watching an old fight between you and Duraza and thinking it looks cool)... mix vigorously and bake at 450 degrees for 30 minutes and viola! You have the recipe for a huge outbreak of iffy RP duels.

So, basically what I am saying is... this is all your fault Velh! (kidding of course )

Also, it just occurred to me that RP dueling can actually be used as a "shortcut" to create one of these "epic saviors" without really having to put in much time or effort. I get the feeling more than a few people may inadvertently have fallen into this trap, forgetting that a character really only has as much power as the community around them gives them... and that "epic-ness" takes more than just having a fancy backstory and the decided ability to rain down fireball spewing tefusangs when you wiggle your pinky finger and sneeze in an "RP" duel.

[Piker]

I've got to admit i tend not to like RP fighting anymore, unless i know the other character well enough to conduct it fairly. Others i have witnessed often ended up with far too much ooc'ness (Mainly to clarify points and roll dice) and this just ends up looking messy imo. Worst case the fight ends in an all out ooc flame with arguments about turns and accusations of godmodding.

Personaly when an IC argument/fight starts, i tend to perform the early stages RP'ing, but always prefer to use game mechanics for the actual fighting, why? well i have a well trained character that i spent time making powerfull "enough" to be usefull in a fight, far from the strongest, but certainly capable.

As for disliking the grind, well it doesn't actually take that much effort (in my opinion of course ) to create a capable character. There is a skill to using the PvP system, yes it's an ooc skill, but good rp'ers also use their ooc linguistic skills. I rarely train my main char these days as he is just as i imagine he should be now IC, any further training would detract from the character. So you really don't have to go too far with training, just enough.

[Phinehas]

I get the feeling more than a few people may inadvertently have fallen into this trap, forgetting that a character really only has as much power as the community around them gives them... and that "epic-ness" takes more than just having a fancy backstory and the decided ability to rain down fireball spewing tefusangs when you wiggle your pinky finger and sneeze in an "RP" duel.

That's very true. Problem is, these days everybody is so intent on being epic, that they don't see any problem with other people being epic, so they let it slide. It's like a vicious circle of no accountability.

* Phinehas gets out his rocking chair and porch.

Used to be that if some newbie came along and tried to RP anything ridiculous they'd get laughed off. Nowadays everybody is so busy being ridiculous that nobody notices that everyone's being ridiculous.

I'm meticulously careful with how I RP Phinehas and the extent of his powers, so although his powers are great nobody has ever had cause to say, "Hold on a sec... you shouldn't be able to do that..." On the other hand, every time I go in-game I end up saying something of that sort(or thinking it) about at least a third of the characters I see.

[Zan]

UtM you bring up a good point that had also briefly occurred to me, way too many people will RP duel in places they'd never "really" duel. I honestly can't think of the last RP fight I saw that didn't take place inside the tavern or just outside of Harnquist's.

I'm often expecting to be jumped on in a dark alley or out in the middle of nowhere ... but eventually I get bored of the waiting so I go where every self-respecting criminal in Hydlaa hangs out. The prestigeous and well protected Kada-el's tavern of course! Only to find them speaking openly of tales of their outlawness and wickedness during a few drinks.

As for epic characters, well I think I can say that I have two guys who somewhat approach that area. One of them because he spent a long time growing in the ranks and gaining the influence of a military leader. Through actual situations and not a written story. He started out as an outcast blacksmith/warrior. The other is a bad guy created to give atheists a hard time and give others something to beat up. I'm actually not sure how epic I want him to be yet but I do know that I'm fully content with him being the bad guy that gets the living daylight kicked out of him on a daily basis. Interestingly enough everyone lets him wander about in the open and spew his fanatic religious words .. except for a few randomly unexplained duel challenges.

Aside from that I have twice that many characters who either play average joe's, miners, merchants, travellers or soldiers.

[Meredee]

RP fights can be far more descriptive, and thus entertaining, than duels. As long as your opponent is mature enough to understand they can lose, RP fights are the best things about RPing, and since RPing is the best part of PS...

No! Maybe for you fighting is the best thing that you can find in game, but not for me and not for many other players! Im not a violent person IRL and Im not playing a violent character IG. My char trains her swords mostly to feel safe and to be able to defend herself when somebody attacks her.

But still.. I think game needs some villains, bad mages and such. In game I often complain or swear at the outlaws, but OOCly I think it's very good they are there, it makes the game more interesting. It makes up the topics to discuss about etc. For this reason I can even RP being scared of somebody who RPs being powerful although his char is not well trained, but only IN SOME CASES - when they put enough effort in making the character powerful and only if they don't make themselves invincible.

I actually met somebody like this only once, it was Xathen. There was a whole RP around him... there was a story and some preparations done before RP. There was even a quite balanced fight without rolling dices and arguing about the results (I didnt fight very actively and the whole fight was way to long for me but I saw that some people enjoyed it and I didnt want to spoil it). We knew that he can be defeated with the blue way and those who had it, rp-ed using it against Xathen and we finally won (!!! it shows me OOC-ly that the char hasnt been created only to be there and to be powerful and smash other chars but also to entertain people and give them topics to speak about). I know IC-ly that Xathen did some bad things to other people, so now my char considers him a great risk. Maybe even not because of his super powers but because of his reputation that he worked on. I even bought blue way glyph and spent few trias on training my blue way in case I meet him again (Im backing up my eventual rp in the future).

But... when somebody attacks me just like this in the public place and starts with a killing blow, and then uses some super energy spell which blows up everyhing around, then sorry, I just can't take it too seriously. This is no RP. This is some stupid killing and trying to justify the super-forces with a cheap background. It happened to me before - few times Fesek's ex-wife was running after Fesek and me with her claymores writing about all this stabbing, hands cutting, using some super powerful spells, blah-blah-blah, and rolling without end. Sorry. This is no RP for me.

The real problem is that in standard live RPGs such characters are created and played by game masters... and I have a feeling that our Game Masters are never there. I never ever saw a light green or yellow labeled char. I play a lot but I had contact with GMs only twice in last 3 months. So we're left alone for ourselves and I think that's one of the reasons why people create these super-chars who don't have backup in stats. Or I dont know.. maybe they just like to feel powerful without paying any time to reach that?

And somebody has pointed out that not everybody has a time to train. Well, most of the players have jobs, schools, studies, families, pets, other hobbies... etc. As I wrote in my first post - if you want to have 5 chars, why do you need play somebody who can easily kill others just like that? Play a farmer, librarian or a barmaid.

[Zan]

You're absolutely right, Meredee ... attacking someone in public without any reason other than relieving their boredom is not roleplay. You shouldn't take it serious, I wouldn't either.

As for Game Masters, unfortunately they've taken a not so beneficial approach to events which resulted in the 'reward fever'. Every time a yellow label appears people start throwing themselves at their feet, completely ignoring roleplay and how their characters would act normally and just hoping to get that special item, nobody else can get. This, in my opinion, makes it very hard for GMs to create good roleplay situations. Even though they try their best.