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I move that the players try to establish a set of roleplaying principles that they want to adhere to.
You can use previous guides on roleplaying.
You can debate what constitutes roleplaying.
You can include what rewards should go with good roleplaying.
Your goal would be to find a common set of roleplaying ideals that everyone can agree to.
The rp covenant can be refined until someone moves that it be "ratified."
Once this happens, I will make a poll for it.
Ratification will be defined as 4/5 of all voters agreeing that this is a system all should agree to.
That will pass it on to gms to discuss view comment on and agree to or veto.
We can't define what roleplay is or should be, maybe you can.
The Covenant will not be an end all, be all, it could be overturned by popular sentiment or amended by the same.
(I just want to see more specifically what it is you want rp to be)
(also my word here is not binding this is simply a proposition to be discussed)
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This falls into the Ideals Category
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One of the things I see often in Roleplay that I find distracting at best and multiplicative at worst is the tendency to RP thoughts.
Why: If the Character you are roleplaying with/to has no ability regarding telepathy Noone should have any idea what so ever what You are thinking.
Example : 1. Apnew feels sad.
2. Apnew thinks PlayerX is angry at her.
3. Apnew is angry at playerX
Rather: 1. Apnew look sad.
2. Apnew looks apprehensive at PlayerX.
3. Apnew looks aggravated.
A player does not have access to your thoughts and emotions. Only what can be observed by the expressions carried out.
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Good idea, here are some of my notes.
In descriptions, somewhat like apnew noted, there should only be allowed what is going on on the outside. I'm partially guilty of purveying feelings through my descriptiong, so its ok.
Like in my descr, I have that through the ring on my finger, people know me for who I am. That should be ok. But if I said that through the ring on my finger, YOU (the person reading) was automatically scared of me, that would be god modding. I mention in my description that I demand respect. Of course, its ok if you dont respect Garris as a character, but like in real life, there are people who walk a certain way.
To sum it up, your description is simply that: a description of what your character is wearing, what he/she has equipped, perhaps the look on his/her/kran's face.
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I think this is a very bad idea. If you wish to have diversity in the characters then this will not work. This will only help to have one kind of role player and all the creativity that we can have will go down the toilet. If you set up rules they will be broken. The Ten Commandments were not enough so they made more rules to follow and that just meant more rules to break. Role play is something that people do because they want to not because they have to. Some do not like it because they just do not have the mind set to do it. Therefore adding rules to how it is done will only make them more apprehensive to even try. This is a very very bad idea or a good idea if you want the role play community to shrink in numbers.
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Here are my thoughts, in no particular order:
- Core to the RP argument and what RP is... is what it is not. I think that a significant mention in this agreement needs to be to avoid discussing Real Life in "main". You can ask for help, but RL need not intrude on "main". If this means the devs want/need to create a tab for RL chat, well... that can be decided at another time. I think everyone that I have seen post on the subject agrees on this point. If we can AT A MINIMUM keep "main" to only discussing PS and/or our characters interactions we will be on the right path.
- Keep [ooc text here] to a minimum. Sometimes it is impossible to avoid getting your point across any other way. Discussing a perceived bug in the game that can't be explained except with technical details for instance.
- There is nothing wrong with leveling or making trias, but you should strive to interact with others as your character would... not how you, the player, would. This does not mean Shakespeare. As an example, don't assume you know everyones names (just because you can read them).
- DO NOT TAKE THINGS SAID IN GAME PERSONALLY. Unless someone is specifically harassing you, the player, which is an offense that should be /reported to a GM, just relax and have fun. Characters are allowed to be boisterous, rude, friendly, comical, etc. Just go with it and have fun.
- Hiding behind RP as an excuse for harassing other players will not be tolerated.
- If a player is either being polite, or simply playing their character, do not chastise them for interfering with or trying to be part of your RP. If you are talking about something in "main" that piques their interest, you obviously were talking loud enough to be overheard, deal with the consequences as your character would.
- If at all possible, make exceptions to your normal etiquette or your current running RP to help out a new player that is being polite in asking for help. Even if your character would not, tell them [go to tell tab] in "main" and then help them. New players are important to PS, and being rebuffed for interrupting an RP is not going to make them feel welcome, especially when the tutorial tells them to ask other players for help.
I may think of other things later... but this is a start.
[EDIT] Mathy, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of what this is about. This is about establishing a code of conduct, if you will. This is the fundamental baseline for all RP. There will be plenty of room for creativity. If you really want to RP in an exclusive setting form a group (/invite <playername>) and keep your chat to yourselves. But this is a set of ground rules for interacting with other players in "main".
Xillix, please correct me if i have misunderstood your intentions here.
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I... Agree with Mathy... Try to establish 'rules' of RP is... not a good idea... Instead, RP etiquette is more appropriate an idea...
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/me plants his tongue firmly in his cheek before responding...
Does this mean that RPers do not want to act as a team player and restrict themselves to settings and mechanics? Do "rules" only apply to those annoying PLers that frequently have better stats than the RPers?
Seriously though, the most common conflict I see on the forums is the question of "what is RP". Among the players that I chat with frequently, every one of them have a different idea of what it is, and several of them are afraid they will do it wrong, and so avoid it altogether. I see this as a way to clarify the issue, and get everyone on the same page. Threads from this week are debating the same issues as threads I have found from 1 - 3 years ago. This issue needs to be settled for PS to really be able to move forward. I get tired of hearing people say that the PS devs are either liars or hypocrites because they post the PS is a GPL game, and a Role Playing game. Everyone just has a different ideal or expectation when those terms are used.
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I don't see how this thread is bad at all.
Rules are setup in LARPing events in which everyone abides by to make the event go smoothly and keep it fun. I don't see why PS should be any different.
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I move that the players try to establish a set of roleplaying principles that they want to adhere to.
You can use previous guides on roleplaying.
You can debate what constitutes roleplaying.
You can include what rewards should go with good roleplaying.
Your goal would be to find a common set of roleplaying ideals that everyone can agree to.
The rp covenant can be refined until someone moves that it be "ratified."
Once this happens, I will make a poll for it.
Ratification will be defined as 4/5 of all voters agreeing that this is a system all should agree to.
That will pass it on to gms to discuss view comment on and agree to or veto.
We can't define what roleplay is or should be, maybe you can.
The Covenant will not be an end all, be all, it could be overturned by popular sentiment or amended by the same.
(I just want to see more specifically what it is you want rp to be)
(also my word here is not binding this is simply a proposition to be discussed)
Did I say rules?
To reject such a proposal out of hand seems knee-jerk and less than thoughtful.
I hope those of you who push rp very hard will reconsider this idea before trashing it.
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This is the problem with RP in PS and why it is sooooooo confusing to new players. Everybody getting defensive and trying to nitpick if their interpretation of RP is criticized or maligned. There have to be rules at some point. This isn't about rules as much as trying to come up with a definition that everyone can live with, and some core understandings of how things could/should be done.
[EDIT] And specifically to Mathy, you have established, by your definition, that we are looking for an agreement from all sides as to what RP is, and then getting everyone to agree to be bound by the terms of the agreement. What is wrong with this again?
[EDIT2] And while we are on the subject of rules, why is it that in the previous poll, there were so many people ready to shove RP down the throats of those that only PL... using the reasoning that PS is a RP game... but now that we are trying to establish what exactly RP is, some of the same RPers are setting themselves against the very idea of imposing "rules" on anything they do in-game. I find it interesting that some want a certain portion of the player base to be held to a standard, but not establish what that standard is.
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Mythryndel, you are spot on.
Ideals and guidelines that the community agrees to would be very nice to see.
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Well, if the new alliance gets of the ground (no specific details) then RP will be a major part in any dealing you have with A LOT of players. This alliance may bring together 4 or 5 guilds with not only an IC reason to work together but an OOC reason to promote RP.
and beleive me.. if you want to have any dealing with them the you will have to RP.
welll after my OFF TOPIC rant i will get back to the main reason for my post.
IF enough people RP properely and spent time helping new players then there would be no "OOC n00b problems" as my old freind would say.
IF a series of slightly stricter guidelines were implemented along with an example of a common routine RP introduction then maybe players will grasp the idea of Role Play better
and one last thing. I partly blame the plat mine for the amount of powerlevelers... with the price so high it is an easy source of income, the PLers just mine till they have hundreds of thousands, and then blow it on training.
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Further discussion of PLers is not really needed on this thread.
Try to refrain from raising points that will make this thread typical.
This thread is for every forum user to have a hand in deciding the fate of rp in PS.
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The problem that is continually coming up is that RP *needs* moderation. RP without moderation by person -- or without moderation by some automatic system -- becomes a free-for-all or argument, as there is no framework that is being enforced. The framework, or principle, requires intelligence and spontaneity to judge or enforce. Hence, the never-ending discussion. I honestly do not think that any agreement or covenant is going to resolve anything, but I am interested in seeing what principles could develop from this. Would brackets around OOC text be considered a 'principle' in this case?
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Talk of moderation is also not helping this discussion.
use /report /petition
If no one responds then the community is failing to generate enough gms, the game is free, it IS on you.
Refrain from further commentary on moderation.
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My use of the word below is not in reference to current game or forum situation. It is a description of part of the mechanics of an RP system. But sure, I won't use that word...
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I move that the players try to establish a set of roleplaying principles that they want to adhere to.
Didn't roleplaying begin with the players?
I think this is a very bad idea. If you wish to have diversity in the characters then this will not work. This will only help to have one kind of role player and all the creativity that we can have will go down the toilet. If you set up rules they will be broken. The Ten Commandments were not enough so they made more rules to follow and that just meant more rules to break. Role play is something that people do because they want to not because they have to. Some do not like it because they just do not have the mind set to do it. Therefore adding rules to how it is done will only make them more apprehensive to even try. This is a very very bad idea or a good idea if you want the role play community to shrink in numbers.
First off, there were 613 commandments given to Moses according to Exodus. The idea that there were only Ten is a matter of Christian folklore. So there were actually far more commandments in the past, and the number has gone down over time.
Second, I don't think we're talking about making roleplaying uncreative. We're talking about how to make it undisruptive. The basic rules:
1. You are playing a character.
2. Do what your character would do given his or her surroundings, settings, and experiences.
I don't see how rules like that limit roleplaying. Really, what we're doing is defining roleplaying.
Thirdly, the community is ALREADY shrinking. It's kind of shocking for me to come back after being away since September of last year.
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"Covenants", no matter any picky definition but the way it is meant here now, wouldnt (or shouldnt) force people to play in a certain way, but would explain people 'how' they should play. Players who dont want to roleplay wont change their way of playing anyway. Players who do want to roleplay would know how to do so in accordance to all other roleplayers.
PlaneShift is said to be a roleplaying game primarily, I cant see how would it be wrong to have a guideline on how to roleplay, instead I had to wonder why there is none.
I have already given my opinion on that topic in another thread, and is included by some of what Mythryndel and Zanzibar posted above.
Quite pleased to see this thread here now!
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I fail to see how asking the community to come up with some ideals or guidelines they would like to adhere to or beginning a discussion leading to some community agreement is in any way a bad thing.
If I were any of several hard core rpers I would feel that the negative reactions to this idea were disconcerting.
I find it funny that one of the most reasonable responses to this idea, and in fact the best plan laid out so far was forwarded by a long term advocate of mechanics, while the argument against my motion is being let by rpers.
I hope that the less vocal community members will speak up here and now and make their voices heard.
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I think people can't really come up with a collaborated set of rules, mainly because we've made so many posts explaining RP etiquette that we're...burnt out? It might be nice if someone went through different threads and made highlights of what people have suggested in the past.
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That burnt out excuse won't fly. If this thread wasn't here it would be a day or less before another on the topic of pl vs rp would pop up.
I have been watching this for years.
I am open sourcing that work Shaman, and I think you just volunteered.
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This thread is not necessarily about the aspects of RP that can be enforceable. This thread , if my understanding is clear, is meant to establish openly what exactly RP is to us. The covenant/Agreement is simply a polite discussion about what RP is.
If you consider yourself a wonderful RPer great add your wisdom and talent with constructive suggestions;
For instance I have found that the most enjoyable characters to RP with are those who have a clear understanding of their character. How they react to a given situation and why. They stick to those guideline even when it becomes inconvenient to their character. They act and react to those around them according to how their character would. Not how they themselves would. There is a clear definition of their characters personality.
Adding these bits of wisdom from the individual adds to the knowledge of the whole community. When a new RPer stumbles on this thread they will, Hopefully find a better understanding of RP. The long time RPer may find a unique perspective they never thought of exploring hence, enhancing their roleplaying experience.
This isn't written in stone, nor is it meant to be a set of unbending of rules designed to stifle creativity. It is certainly not designed to impose one persons view of RP on everyone Else. It is a collection of wisdom and suggestions shared by people who share a love of RP. To help us RP well TOGETHER. Together being the key word.
Etiquette was a wonderful word. Etiquette is after all, a means for people to get along well.
We are all writing this story together, lets write it well.
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You can debate what constitutes roleplaying.
To be 'roleplaying' (not necessarily good or bad) you bust be doing the following:
- Taking on the role of a character you have created.
Now, to roleplay well in my opinion is to be doing the following:
- First and foremost, creating a character with 'history'. In otherwords, you give your character some sort of background, some sort of life before what you do now. You don't need every detail of your characters prior life but some kind of basic background adds to the realism that your character actually was living before you brought them ingame through character creation.
- Giving your character some sort of current description. It doesn't have to be long, fancy, or special. I don't mind if you say 'A big blue kran'. If those are your exact words then it's perfectly alright. I understand it seems silly because if your avatar is a big blue kran then you don't see a point. However, it's nice to have those words there so others can know what to expect. Definitely don't say nothing in your description and yet expect people to see 100 different features about you.
- Giving your character a set personality. This really goes without much conversation. You can't be Mr Happy Kran one day then Evil Emperor Kran the next.
- Giving your character strengths and weaknesses. This goes for everyone, 'PLer' or 'Rper' as we all make the same mistake. 'PLers' often max stats and feel that totally alright. I don't care if the guards can reach y strength so x is possible. X is the strongest we can get so everyone shouldn't have X. If you do have X then the rest of your stats shouldn't also be X. Give yourself weakness reflected in your leveling. 'Rpers' I don't like it when we go around and say 'my character does have a weakness, its just super hard to find it.' Don't lie as many of us do it. Your character will have a weakness and it will not be 'Oh, to beat him you need a special sword that takes years to make.' In fact, have multiple weaknesses else it's just pointless.
- Use english. No 1337 speak. No other languages. If it is another language, put it in brakets. The only acceptable languages are those created by the settings for the races.
- Follow the settings. Self explanatory. You read them. What they say is what you can do. If you have a question about them ask a settings team member. Somethings will obviously be questionable but there are other things that obviously aren't allowed.
- Just because you can do something does not mean you should do something. To examples. Just because you can max doesn't mean you should. Just because you can roleplay the ability to infict perma-death doesn't mean you should. Now of course, there are people who do both things. In that case just because you have something, doesn't mean you should use them.
- Never assume your character is stronger than someone elses, regardless of stats and what you roleplay your character to be. Everyone should be given an even chance, if you decide to 'roleplay fight' (In duels stats would be the deciding factor regardless). This is the key to eliminating godmodding. If no one ever assumes themseleves anything but the equal of others or less then there can be no godmodding (and if everyone gives themselves multiple weaknesses fights would be determined on strategy, not 'uber strength').
- Have fun and realize that it's okay to lose sometimes. Make yourself vunerable if you want but never become invunerable to win. Unless something is prearranged don't focus on winning. Focus on playing the game.
Now obviously with rules come exceptions. I have a few.
To my 3rd point, the exception would be if your characters nature was to be 'flip floppy' or they had some kind of reason behind it.
My 4th point I only change in the case of 'events'. I know many people (myself included) who set up events not much different from how GM events work. We do it not to make super characters but to challenge and entertain other players before having the 'super character' die/meet his or her end. In those cases I don't mind someone with one weakness who is uber. However, one should not use this as an excuse to make an uber character.
My 5th point changes for those who can't speak/write in english very well. It's harder for some so you have to give them room to improve and not disinclude them. Don't use this as an excuse to speak badly. This also changes if your roleplaying a character who has bad speaking skills. However there are ways to pull this off by RPing and it shouldn't be an excuse to go around saying 'lol'.
7 only can be broken if your breaking 4 and like I said, you do it to entertain other players, not to make yourself stronger. If they aren't having fun then you need to fix something.
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A fine list so far.
I would add, as well to have it appearing less intimidating to new players (if it does at all), that its totally fine to have a char evolve while playing it. So not each and every detail has to be figured in advance, but at least some rough outlines.
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Yes indeed a character must be allowed to grow and evolve with the story. Each character has their own unique story within the Story With settings. A character can start out "bad" and turn "good" or the other way around. As things "happen" to our character they evolve quite naturally. If you have a clear understanding of your characters personality it makes RP flow easily when the unexpected happens.
It it not necessary to control every aspect of your characters existence to the point of instructing other players how they should RP their character. Let People RP their own character. If they are acting inappropriately report them. You can always walk away if you don't care for their brand of RP.
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I've got something right here (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32251.0) for you. This should already contain plenty of discussion about RPing in community and how some people think it should be. I don't think any one else than the moderators should design how these general concepts are to be enforced though. I really think you guys already have everything you need on this subject.
I can't see the sense in requesting players to agree with anything. This game is meant to become a MMORPG one day and this is actually a requirement for that.
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As I'm what Xil would probably call a hardcore rp'er and also an open source nut so I am more than a little concerned that people should say leave it to the mods to decide, we're supposed to be a community so act like one.
I for one would also like to hear what the so called pl'ers opinions are on roleplay and how it should be applied
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If it were left up to me. The rule would be, you all work for me and must do whatever I want you do do, or else I send your character to permadeath by sending them into the crystal.
Since I know no one wants that, lets see some community involvement shall we?
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The problem with codifying a set of rp rules is that they have to be loose enough to allow for a variety of characters. You say that a character needs growth but the tendency in reality if for people to get set in their ways and never really change. The biggest changes occur during adolescence, if they occur at all and it subsequently gets terrifically more difficult to change as life goes on. Given that the character creation process leaves you with an adult character (generally speaking) such changes should be relatively rare. It is true of course that some people are wishy-washy and cannot settle on any particular way to be but I think they are in the minority. It is also true that some people choose to start their characters before this process has taken place but then they should probably leave themselves with a lot of spare character points unspent in the creation process to reflect this lack of development. Otherwise they are assuming themselves to be exceptionally precocious.
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Don't make OOC comments in gen chat without using a form of []'s. Try to limit your ooc comments from gen chat as much as possible to limit disrupting the RP atmosphere.
Those are good RP etiquette rules to go by. How are they limiting your character from being the character you want it to be, Prolix?
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"something right here" that ia all well and good. However,
The point is:
"What does THIS community think"
This is an opportunity to be heard, to share what you think.
Sanwga, what is the most important thing in Roleplaying to You? What Personal RP wisdom, have you discovered along your RP journey, can you share with the community?
Prolinx: yes just like real life, Characters do get set in their ways. It isn't generally any better for real life people as it is for characters. And we do need the cranky old man or the crazy groffel Ladies. However while the character develops the personalty stays the same.
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Those, specifically, do not, neko but sometimes when you start to make rules it is hard to stop. however
If it were left up to me. The rule would be, you all work for me and must do whatever I want you do do, or else I send your character to permadeath by sending them into the crystal.
would tend to limit my character ;)
If you want one specific rp rule to be gleaned from my comment I guess it would be: if you are going to play a child or adolescent character do not spend all the character points allotted to an adult character.
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I will try to get some of the people I interact with in-game to chime in here. Most are not hard-core RPers, so it might give a little insight from that side of the community. From what I have read so far, nothing sounds unreasonable or overly restrictive. The only part that is a bit murky is "staying within settings". Most players I know, including myself, do not spend a lot of time in-game just pouring over books. I quest quite a bit, and get insights into characters and events through doing them. I don't know anyone that specifically tries to do things in direct violation of known settings... but maybe if a little more of the settings were available outside of the game... just some general guidelines and such. Both expecting people to stay within settings, and hiding the knowledge in books that will take hours to read... it may be a bit difficult to reconcile the two.
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[..] "staying within settings". Most players I know, including myself, do not spend a lot of time in-game just pouring over books.
I have to agree here. Parts of the Setting, and if its only the ones that describe the basic situation, say basic design of the world, about the levels, idea of the government etc. - generally all that every character would have learned while growing up automatically - needs to be put on the website.
Players have to be provided with basic information if they are meant to play a valid way, respecting the Setting that is.
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Some advice on what a character should be and shouldn't be are fair, although they are pretty obvious and already stated in many places (stay in setting, try to be consistent, etc.). A reminder at character creation, in the tutorial and in loading tips would do no harm.
However, I'd concentrate my etiquette thought and questions on how to use the PS tools in a common manner. The tools themselves can always be improved later to reduce the burden that an etiquette can be. Such tools include:
- the chat tabs, as already described
- the Auction tab, which is supposed to replace an IG message board, so could be used as one
- the description, which should be short, purely descriptive, and exempt of any OCC information
- the /challenge command, which I admit I have a hard time dealing with, lacking an appropriate protocol.
- the /away command, which could be set in a more visual manner; maybe we turn to face a wall before going away, or something. In the future, the command could turn on/off some snoring automatically, but presently, I just feel silly to talk to someone who isn't even there.
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For the Main and Auction tabs, I'd like people to refrain from using thing like 10K and q300. (The latter would actually disappear if quality figures were never visible, although still there). For those who really think that q300 is much better than q299, I suggest the use of /tell for the OOC details of their transactions. Actually, same thing for merchants' catalogs of products.
We could also try to agree on how we deal with the parts of PS which are not implemented yet, as well as other sources of potential conflict. To agree on a line of conduct may avoid constant arguing later. With such a previous agreement, one would stick to it even when, some day, one happens not to be happy with it. By not reacting to frustration according to one's mood, but instead to a pattern chosen in a thoughtful moment, the game flows smoothly and the atmosphere is kept playful. It is after all, the basic rule of a table RPG: the GM has the final word, and one doesn't insist on arguing with the GM during the game. In PS, this final word can be ours, if we spell it beforehand.
The most common sources of conflict are law enforcement and free PVP zones. There are probably others that I'm not aware of. For PvP zones, my conduct is simple: anything that happens there is fair game. For law enforcement, some devs made very clear statements, and I'd sign the agreement right away. In a possible situation of disagreement in game, I'd stick to the contract regardless of being right or wrong, for the sole purpose of not being disruptive, keeping the debate for a more appropriate time and place.
Also, since crafting does require some OOC explanation in game, crafters could come up with an improved approach to the problem by sharing their experience, and teach that as well to the beginners, for they will also be called for help some day. Not sure if that was clear, so, basically, as crafters use less OOC to answer newbies, they also teach the newbies how to teach.
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"Settings" Is the World of PS it isn't a long read.
Overview: 15 min read
http://www.planeshift.it/setting.html
races: 2 min read
http://www.planeshift.it/races.html
history: 20 min read
http://www.planeshift.it/history.html
Government: 2 min read
http://www.planeshift.it/government.html
economy: 2 min read
http://www.planeshift.it/economy.html
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My fault, didnt see those direct links, but supposed there was only the Player Guide which I read was outdated (thus I didnt consider it a valid source of information).
That collection of links like you posted it, Apnew, I think would be a useful inclusion to such a roleplaying Guideline.
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Whatever covenant/guidelines will be created, they need to be short and simple, so people will look at them and remind them. Maybe it should be in the help so people can access it in-game easily and everytime. It took me a long time period of several months to learn about simple things as for example what godmoding means, how to talk about mechanics ICly etc. And still there is a lot of disagreement on how roleplay should look like.
The rules should also apply to all players: Roleplayers, PLers, etc. to enable a way of dealing with each other instead of separating into groups. It is not a problem if a char is mainly talking about how to become more skilled while another char has no interest in this. They should be able to communicate with each other without any problems.
I see the biggest problem in supervising/moderating this. The game mechanics' restriction is quite narrow. Roleplay established by natural language is very difficult to supervise. Because of this the rules/convenant need to be as specific as possible (and simple at the same time).
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Perhaps if fitting in with settings is part of some player's concern perhaps a minimum amount of settings reading or a condensed settings guide to read could be considered part of the covenant.
I won't accept the idea of pushing the responsibility for hundreds or thousands of people agreeing with my positions on roleplay.
I am asking the community to use this thread to TRY to propose a set of values they can comfortably agree to on Laanx.
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edit: Added a rule 10x
Marqsaynt's 10 Planeshift Roleplaying Commandments (to be expanded to 613 at a later date)
1. All OOC chat must be enclosed within a type of brackets.
Examples: [OOC comment], (OOC comment), {OOC comment}
2. A person’s name is not known until it is heard in character.
Just as there are no floating nametags over our heads in real life, there are no floating tags in Planeshift from an in-character perspective.
3. Using /me or /my to indicate what your character is thinking is poor form.
Your thoughts are your own in RL. Your character’s thoughts are their own in PS.
4. Bald exposition is lazy roleplay.
Don’t cheat yourself with exposition you don’t need. It is unrealistic and removes a lot of the mystery from your character. (See example at bottom)
5. Don’t try to grab the spotlight; you’ll burn yourself.
An excellent way to turn-off fellow players to your roleplay is to constantly insist on being the most tragic, most loud, most dramatic character in the room. Not only is it obnoxious, it leaves zero room for anyone else to talk to you about their own character’s events or story.
6. Leave the official guarding to the government (and GMs).
There is no RP badge you can invent that will ever mean you are officially affiliated with the Hydlaa Guards, Sunshine Squadron, etc. If you strive to protect the citizens of Yliakum, do it under your own banner not the government’s.
7. In general, do not exceed your character’s race traits.
This includes extremes like attempting to RP a 7-foot tall dwarf or a Kran made entirely of vanilla ice cream, to less obvious faux pas like playing a character much older than any other of his species to ever walk the realm.
8. Every great roleplayed strength should have an equally great weakness.
No weakness means no conflict. It also ensures more thoughtful RPers will largely avoid you since it is no fun playing a game with someone that can never lose.
9. Stick with what is known about the PS world.
A person must know the rules before they bend/break/add to them. All back stories and character abilities should still be firmly aligned with what is known about the settings.
10. Your character only has as much power as the PS community accepts.
Just because you say you are a “powerful” mage/warrior/etc. does not mean others will treat you like one. A reputation is something that must be earned.
10x. Character descriptions are only for what another person's character would see.
Books are for autobiographies, character descriptions are not.
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Example of Bald Exposition
Bad:
Bubba says: Is it still raining outside?
Explainsa says: Yes, and it makes me sad since when I was 7 my parents where both struck by lighting then carried away in a flood while I watched helplessly from the roof of a neighbor’s house. That neighbor then took me in, her name was Linda, and raised me as a blue way mage though I am still scared by water spells, but, not as much as I am freaked out by that lightning glyph.
Bubba says: Uh... So it is still raining then? I think I’ll just go outside and try to catch some raindrops on my tongue now… Bye.
Good:
Bubba says: Is it still raining outside?
Unexplainsa says: Yes.
Unexplainsa looks at her reflection in the window.
Unexplainsa says: Rain always gets me thinking about my parents.
Bubba says: Really? Why is that?
Unexplainsa says: It’s a long story.
Bubba looks at the door, and then turns his attention back to Unexplainsa.
Bubba says: I have time.
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/me HUGGS Marqsaynt.
Nice !
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As I'm what Xil would probably call a hardcore rp'er and also an open source nut so I am more than a little concerned that people should say leave it to the mods to decide, we're supposed to be a community so act like one.
I agree with Mordraugion. I think the community has a lot of good stuff to offer.
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I don't think we have heard from a broad enough cross-section.
I would like everyone to ask friends in game if they have things they want to add.
Include things from other threads here, and combine all the thoughts into one agreement here.
Marq did well so far, maybe the thread viewers can nominate him to draft the covenant.
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a thread that has a bit of valid input to add here about one specific topic imo is http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=25257.0.
also one other thread that is a bit more general on this topic http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28895
also it might be possible as suggested in the above thread to add the "rules" to the character creation process at some point where you do have to agree to them before entering the game and that would make it possible at some point for the gms to ban players that dont follow the rules as they did agree to them. But this would not be any time soon as the player gms and staff would have to agree on the rules and how to inforce them.
To those of you that came from forum or live action rp's what rules have you seen that might work well in ps?
I know many of you came from other types of rp before ps what did your gms or dms do that helped your rp become better?
Would anyone be willing to attend RP workshops ingame/irc or somewhere else that would help to teach players how to rp better and fit better into the settings? These would have to be hosted by the settings or gm teams and would also help to answer questions about how settings does fit into how your character does things.
We have lots of players here some that are more active then others, but we all have a voice come on and let it be heard good or bad let us know what you have to say. You want to see change make it known what you want to see happen or not happen.
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/me seconds the motion to nominate Marq.
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I've sat here day after day for the past 3 days and all I've seen so far in this thread is people give up before something wonderful has been achieved. "Too many 'rules'", "Not enough moderation", "Daddy, another rule I have to live by?"
Folks, what is wrong with having an accord? Xillix never mentioned the word rule. His request is not all that unreasonable. He is simply asking for an agreement of some sort as to what RP is; not "Please list a bunch of rules for everyone to follow." The rules can come later AFTER an agreement is reached about what proper RP is and is not.
Marqsaynt just happened to go the one extra step to define and place things into a sort of rules context at the same time, but that does not mean we aren't free to agree or disagree.
I agree with Marqsaynt on some of the 'rule' forms, but what is rp as far as Planeshift is concerned.
I myself am not a "hard-core" roleplayer, but I find myself really irked when someone comes up to me out of the blue asking me either in /tell or in main chat if I want to be in a guild. It's none of your damned business if I am or am not in a guild and how the hell would you know if I was in one to begin with?!?!? I haven't told anyone if I was or weren't.
This is only one example of what proper roleplay ISN"T. Role play isnt' about other people ASSuming what is going on with a player. Its about reasoning and deduction and the acting out of various parts in a play. It is a movie script which hasn't yet been written, but is being acted out with wonderful principle actors. Its about writing the script as we go along. Its not about god-modding (I am more powerful than you or let me change my clothes so you don't know me) or bloviation (unless that is your character's charism), or creating an uncomfortable environment for others.
EDIT -- Oh... and get to know me before you use my name! I haven't introduced myself!
Lets also not forget folks, that the tutorial specifically hits these points. I doubt very many of you remember what the tutorial says about roleplaying. There are outlines and guidelines and helpful suggestions right in the tutorial that everyone seems to forget about the moment they land in the game.
So... IMHO... Roleplaying is:
1. Playing a role -- This means that I THINK about my character completely. It's past, its habits (good and bad), its mannerisms, its pattern of speech, etc. In other words I don't just blast through the character creation trying to get myself as many points in a particular area because I have a cheat sheet stashed away somewhere. (jerks!)
2. Acting -- I am a principle actor in a major staring role yes, but I have co-actors who feel the very same way I do so we must agree (this is an accord remember?) to respect one another in-so-far-as it does not interfere with my character's above mentioned idiosyncrasies. (For example... I am evil... I need to act evil, BUT not in a manner outside the scope of reality for the game (i.e. no casting of a spell that instantly smites someone. (jerks)), AND so long as I don't become abusive or disruptive to others around me.
3. /tell is wonderful IF the other person doesn't mind -- Don't just use tell! Please!! This is not a chance for you to voice your own opinions of a given situation! If you need to /tell someone you are pissed at someone else in the same space then please roleplay that information! (i.e. /tell $playername He really pisses me off = you are a jerk -- /me begins scowling at $playername (or) /me whispers to $Playername, "by the gods he ticks me off." = good roleplay.
/tell should be used for helpful information given to another player who doesn't know better OR between friends that do not wish to roleplay at the moment but rather catch up on how the family and friends are doing. /tell should also be used for those times when you feel like being a jerk and want to have certain fantasies in public (jerk). Please take that crap to /tell. There are children that play the game and don't need your brand of entertainment to teach them the birds and the bees.
Edited -- now... if you are in a situation where you know the person well and don't give a rats behind then by all means, but don't use ignorance as a chance to get to know someone through /tell. Role play it!!!
4. Help a Brother/Sister Out -- This means (imho remember) that we need to police ourselves. This is an area that I in which disagree with Marqsaynt. The GM's and Devs are overworked as it is. They are hard working folks who can't be everywhere every moment of every game hour. This means that people have to use more self-responsibility for their actions (something sorely lacking in today's society) and as such need to say something when someone wrongs them. (i.e. (in brackets if out of character) [dude... stop being a jerk and get back to roleplaying] or [that is inappropriate roleplay. please stop or WE will be forced to use /petition or /report.])
5. My Character is a Miner, Leave Me Alone -- This is very much appropriate roleplay!!! Power-levelers (what everyone refers to as PLrs) have just as much role in the game as roleplayers. If i create a character that is a surly miner, then let me mine my ass off and leave me the hell alone! I have just as much right to roleplay my character as being nonconformist (within certain guidelines agreed to by society of course) or a runner, or a gladiator, or whatever the example. Perhaps in that case my roleplay SHOULD BE to be sirly (but respectful).
6. HAVE FUN.
Now... to me all the above is roleplaying. Its not a set of rules, it is what roleplaying should be or is in my mind. The rules can come later. (what is it that Fantastic Four guy said?)
Flame On
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Edig, you made a lot of good points. I have one to add to your list. It is an extension of #5, but I suppose it can be counted as its own.
#7.
Everyone, when asked a question, should be able to respond in a manner that their character would. Powerleveler, roleplayer, anyone. Even the most anti-roleplaying, only chatting in guild chat person should be able to spout off a line or two that stays within settings. Sometimes an 'I don't know' would be plenty, or a '/me seems very focused in his mining, and did not appear to hear' would be plenty.
I really do support your #2, Edig. People can be very abusive and disruptive in their roleplay. Within a circle of friends, or on a specific roleplay, they can be abusive, but being disruptive anywhere isn't ok.
I think I could come up with some more examples of what rp isn't, but I can't at this moment.
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Edig, you made a lot of good points. I have one to add to your list. It is an extension of #5, but I suppose it can be counted as its own.
#7.
Everyone, when asked a question, should be able to respond in a manner that their character would. Powerleveler, roleplayer, anyone. Even the most anti-roleplaying, only chatting in guild chat person should be able to spout off a line or two that stays within settings. Sometimes an 'I don't know' would be plenty, or a '/me seems very focused in his mining, and did not appear to hear' would be plenty.
Thanks Toox, #7 is an important one too!!! Thanks for adding that one!!!!
and also:
8. Read Your Chat Window -- pretty much self explanatory, but for those who may not understand... i.e. Edig is what one may consider a nervous personality type. He doesn't trust people and often will not respond verbally but may respond with a motion or an action. Too many times have I responded with a nodding of the head or shaking of the head or pointing a finger in a certain direction and people have gotten pissed off with me because I didn't respond to them verbally. READ YOUR CHAT WINDOWS!!!!!!!! There is potentially important information there in front of you!
Not all roleplaying is done verbally, but actions are described as well and are integral in roleplaying! (and please don't use sms in chat! Maybe that should be 9.)
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To those of you that came from forum or live action rp's what rules have you seen that might work well in ps?
The biggest thing I've seen is giving people something to do, and being organized about it, but allowing people to play their characters (in contrast to simply playing the facilitator's game).
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I've read through all of the thread and seen just a few lists of rules/guidelines, probably because those contain most of the possibly required points.
However, to make it simplier and easy for the new players to read (as I'm assuming these basic guidelines are mostly for them) I've taken the 9 ones I consider most relevant and added a 10th. So credits go to Duraza, Marqsaynt and Mythryndel.
- 1. All OOC chat must be enclosed within a type of brackets.
You've learned the difference in the tutorial. Make use of your knowledge.
- 2. No 1337 speak, no other languages other than english.
If it is another language, put it in brackets. The only acceptable languages are those created by the settings for the races.
- 3. Do not take things said In-Character personally.
Unless someone is specifically harassing you, the player, which is an offense that should be /reported to a GM, just relax and have fun. Characters are allowed to be boisterous, rude, friendly, comical, etc. Just go with it and have fun.
- 4. Follow the settings.
Self explanatory. You read them. What they say is what you can do. If you have a question about them ask a settings team member. Some things will obviously be questionable but there are other things that obviously aren't allowed.
- 5. Just because you can do something does not mean you should do something.
Two examples. Just because you can max doesn't mean you should. Just because you can roleplay the ability to infict perma-death doesn't mean you should. Now of course, there are people who do both things. In that case just because you have something, doesn't mean you should use them.
- 6. Don’t try to grab the spotlight; you’ll burn yourself.
An excellent way to turn-off fellow players to your roleplay is to constantly insist on being the most tragic, most loud, most dramatic character in the room. Not only is it obnoxious, it leaves zero room for anyone else to talk to you about their own character’s events or story.
- 7. In general, do not exceed your character’s race traits.
This includes extremes like attempting to RP a 7-foot tall dwarf or a Kran made entirely of vanilla ice cream, to less obvious faux pas like playing a character much older than any other of his species to ever walk the realm.
- 8. Every great roleplayed strength should have an equally great weakness.
No weakness means no conflict. It also ensures more thoughtful RPers will largely avoid you since it is no fun playing a game with someone that can never lose.
- 9. Give your character a description.
Character descriptions are only for what another person's character would see. Books are for autobiographies, character descriptions are not.
- 10. All the roleplay should be done in the Main tab.
Do not use the Tells, Group, or any other tab for roleplaying unless you are whispering or roleplaying in a secluded stance. Don't deprive others of your roleplay: people around you would notice what is your character doing or saying unless he/she/kra is making sure they don't.
10th point is something I've noticed plenty, the most around the smithie or the mines. The "ty" "np" kind of RP that one'd say could never happen without a previous chat. There's been a trade there, IC one I assume since they thanked each other in the Main tab. But my char, even being right next to those guys was unable to tell what the hell was going on. Why doesn't people RP the trades (meanwhile mechanics don't give other players a chance to see them)? Makes us others blind.
These are objective guidelines most should agree with and that don't really provide much room for discussion.
Now, point 4 takes me to look at one of the points I didn't bring up from Marqsaynt.
9. Stick with what is known about the PS world.
A person must know the rules before they bend/break/add to them. All back stories and character abilities should still be firmly aligned with what is known about the settings.
More or less the same point but put in another way, he hits the spot with "what is known about the PS world". And what is known? Not much yet, and we players aren't aware of how much is left to come (probably neither setting devs at this point of development). And here is where I often see OOC conflicts arise within roleplayers for the simple reason that the boundaries aren't defined yet. We can't ask the devs to work quicker than they do, so I think here is where an agreement is more needed than with the simple rules/guidelines I listed above.
Are players allowed to roleplay a bow (http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/2766/shot156zp4.jpg) before mechanics allow it? Are they allowed to roleplay a cloak even though their characters look uncloaked? Are they allowed to roleplay a shuriken? Are they allowed to RP spells that are not yet working mechanics-wise or that perhaps will never be implemented at all? Are they allowed to roleplay necromancy? Are they allowed to roleplay a jeweler before gem cutting is implemented?
All of these I've seen in-game, and another thousand questions would arise. Really, everybody can agree that using brackets for OOC chat is good for the flow of the RP in the Main tab, but I would like to see what does have people to say about those many other things that creativity takes us to play about but there are no official statements about. After all, having a dev tell you that your four legged kran is legit doesn't mean other players will give it any credit, and in the end they are the ones you're playing the game with.
Players need to set certain boundaries for OOC conflicts to end, at the same time making IC conflicts much more enjoyable for all.
And here is when I (again :p) steal from Marqsaynt, since I think more of his points are pretty valid, but not as main guidelines. They'd probably fit better in this list of subjective suggestions on how to deal with the lacks the current status of PS's develompent has and what is and what is not acceptable roleplay. These are:
- 1. A person’s name is not known until it is heard in character.
Just as there are no floating nametags over our heads in real life, there are no floating tags in Planeshift from an in-character perspective.
- 2. Using /me or /my to indicate what your character is thinking is poor form.
Your thoughts are your own in RL. Your character’s thoughts are their own in PS.
- 3. Bald exposition is lazy roleplay.
Don’t cheat yourself with exposition you don’t need. It is unrealistic and removes a lot of the mystery from your character. (See example at bottom)
- 4. Leave the official guarding to the government (and GMs).
There is no RP badge you can invent that will ever mean you are officially affiliated with the Hydlaa Guards, Sunshine Squadron, etc. If you strive to protect the citizens of Yliakum, do it under your own banner not the government’s.
I'm unsure as to if this secondary -but in my mind more important- list should be included in this thread, if it deserves a new one, or none of both, but I'm sure you people can come up with decent suggestions to bring up an agreement within players that most would abide to.
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One thing to consider is how to actually do the emotes. For instance, do you write it from the perspective of someone standing next to you, if you are not completely sure if anyone is in "hearing" range. Or do you automatically write it as if someone in the distance may hear it? i.e. "/me sound as if she is closing a door" as opposed to "/me closes a door." And keep in mind that not being aware of someone nearby isn't the same as no one being nearby.
If possible, it would be nice if we players could type without the sentence automatically starting with our name.
- Also, no language other than English is allowed, but you are allowed to create a dialect or speech pattern for your character.
- Descriptions should give "important" visual clues about your character, at least until there is more customization. (even that may not be as necessary one day.)
- Do not be so obsessed with being unique that the character comes out, either outlandishly powerful or outlandishly pitiful. I.e. A super mage, warrior, poet, that can turn the head of members of either sex without trying. Or, the struggling, battle worn, warrior, that lost his, parents, village, girlfriend, dog and job, all at the same time and still manages a new tragedy every week.
- Don't constantly, create RPs just to shock people or to "delve into the complexities of existence" it usually does not go very well. I.e. rape RPs. (keep in mind it is a PG game)
- Going around looking for people to challenge and asking them to fight you for no reason other than you are standing in front of them is generally not RP.
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Hem... this is getting more and more "what you should be and RP" instead of "how you can stay IC".
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I like the /me advice. Something I am sure many people have not considered. A nice bit of wise perspective Illysia.
If a door closes in the tavern and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound.
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These all seem great. Just one thing to add:
- Never refer players to sections of your character history to replace speech
I've seen this done, and in my opinion, it ruins good roleplay. Having to read through a character description to replace an original story is a personal dislike, I suppose. Alththough we've agreed that character histories within descriptions are generally bad roleplay, this seems a natural extension, as such histories are more a personal preference - not an RP-spoiler, as it were.
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I couldn't agree more... character description should be physical traits only... but even if you are trying to RP the weakest character in existence, telling me [in brackets] to read your character description annoys me. We have to stop interacting, while I click on you and read all about you. If this were brief, as per the discussion here, it might not be so bad...
But, is this a level of detail we want included in the proposed covenant?
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Probably not, but perhaps as part of a guideline regarding descriptions. Just a slight dislike, I suppose.
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Xillix, I think this is a good idea. As for all aspects of roleplay discussed, I think excellent points are being brought up. I agree in large part with what's been suggested, and everyone's been so thorough up to this point I'm afraid I may seem repetitive.
I myself am not a "hard-core" roleplayer, but I find myself really irked when someone comes up to me out of the blue asking me either in /tell or in main chat if I want to be in a guild. It's none of your damned business if I am or am not in a guild and how the hell would you know if I was in one to begin with?!?!? I haven't told anyone if I was or weren't.
I think this is a good point not only because one wouldn't know if another is in a guild or not just by looking at them, but also because guilds should be focusing on their purpose, not on blindly recruiting everyone in sight. However, that may be veering off topic...
I remember reading a while ago in a thread the suggestion to make a history tab in the description so one could read about the physical description and only look at the history if they specifically wanted to. Perhaps that would provide some flexibility concerning the description issue.
In my experience with roleplay, I've found that encouraging new players to roleplay and helping them along as best you can be fun too. Therefore, I would argue that it's important to be helpful and also patient.
Also, to embellish on the topic of maintaining personalities, that doesn't mean the characters cannot have depth. I think a variety of personalities can make things significantly more interesting. However, once this set of personalities are chosen they should be the guidlines used in roleplaying your character: their guiding principles.
Perhaps a way to help spread roleplay both for general enjoyment and give new and old players wider opportunity for roleplay is to not confine roleplays to the same sorts of places, ie. Kada El's.
Hope these can be of some use,
Zweitholou
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I you folks are done with this gather it up into a single concise document and I will post it with a poll to see if it flies with the community.
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Hey Xillix,
Would it be possible to vote on each of the suggested ideals (rules, whatever you want to call them) as individual propositions? That way a whole list wouldn't get tossed out just because one unpopular suggestion bogged it down.
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About a document that contains most of these concepts, I've already shown you one (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32251.0). We've done it a while ago, while I still played, and it gathered the opinion of plenty of players. Why not start with it and then criticize it towards evolution? It's probably the most complete source we have for now and it has gone already through a process of including different opinions (As varied as the players Bilbous, Duraza, etc.).
I can take out the examples, introduction and all "coloring" chit chat, if all you want is a concise set of rules though.
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\\o// Yay I'm different!, what did I say...?
I better look :detective:
Oh goody, I didn't make too much of an ass of myself. :)
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Of course. I can take different opinions, just not dumb ones or ill explained ones.
I could probably sum the Guide I've shown with some ideas spoken here and make it summarized. As could anyone else I guess. Unfortunately I'll be drowning in studies this week.
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Roleplay Guidelines:
- Reality Check - This is a Role Play Game. In this game you (the civilized person behind the screen) are supposed to live as the Character you create (the 3D model you drive around) in a Fantasy Setting. You and the character are not the same person and might have different goals; In Character (IC) you might want to overthrow Yliakum's government, but Out Of your Character (OOC) you should just want to have fun, like the rest of us.
- Respecting The Setting - The Setting is the Fantasy environment that the PlaneShift Team so kindly created for you; it has its unique History, Geology and its own form of Magic. In order for players to have equal chances at being entertained, every player must respect how this environment works. Players are therefore required to keep consistent with the Setting, which means that their character's chat, actions and history must not stray away from what is possible in PlaneShift (which you'll learn by reading the guide, web site information and through game experience. When in doubt you should ask a Game Master.)
Examples: You're respecting the settings if your character is a ynnwn who came from a Kran village in the north to pursue the path of the merchant. You'd be disrespecting the setting, however, if you stated that your ynnwn also had wings (in this setting Ynnwns don't have wings) or the power to read minds (without actually possessing any Glyph or special training.)
- Respecting The Player - Other Players are your major source of entertainment, so be sure to respect them. During the game there will be situations where interaction can not be controlled by the Game Mechanics and that is when players are required to use their imagination and social skills. At all times all players concerned should agree with either the outcome or with a fair way to decide the outcome of a role played action that can not take place through the game's mechanics.
Examples: "Zalzor kills Dracor"; by typing "/me kills Dracor" I'm telling the other players I've killed that character, but the target player might not agree to it and since there are several ways to kill a character using game mechanics, one of those should be picked (we could either duel if it was a fight, or decide the outcome through a dice roll [with conditions agreed by both] if it was just a killing stab.)
"Zalzor throws a dagger at Cyl": by typing "/me throws a dagger at Cyl" I'm telling the other players I'm doing an action not currently covered by the game's mechanics. In case we disagree with the outcome, we could settle it by a dice throw with agreed conditions.
- Chat Issues - You'll notice there are different tabs at PlaneShift's chat box. At the Main Tab you're always supposed to act as your character (IC), while the other tabs have uses explained in the PlaneShift Guide. We ask you to be careful with what you type at the Main Tab, as it will affect everyone's game experience. Be sure to use [], (), or other types of text tagging when you want to tell the other players (OOC) something, but don't abuse it. Try and keep your text as clean and correct as possible, so people can understand each other. Be on the lookout for details such as the fact that other characters can't read your thoughts.
Examples: "Joseph says: say, u hav a q300 sword to sell?" This player is not typing good english and uses terms that an inhabitant of Yliakum wouldn't comprehend ("q300"). "Robert says: Say, do you have a finest quality sword to sell?" This player wanted to know the same thing the previous did, but he asked in a different, cool way.
A character description that reads "Josh was once a proud boy..." makes no sense since other characters can't tell your character's life story just by looking.
Typing "/me thinks he's hot." is a useless Main Chat entry since no character can make use of it (characters can't read thoughts.)
Saying "Hello miss Chelza" when your character never heard the name "Chelza" before makes no sense either.
- Consistency Is The Word - If you're true to your character you'll be sure to get a good adventurer in your hands which will show you plenty of good times. What your character becomes depends on what you make of it, so if you sacrifice your own character's personality for your short term enjoyment (for example by blindly seeking rewards), you might come to miss on a whole lot.
I think this is about it. Not that different from what Marqs, Duraza, etc. (which is a great sign), just grouped things in a different way.
EDIT: I've improved the text a bit.
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I don't really have the time to read through this mammoth thread, but to sum up my views of roleplay - you simply have to act as if this was NOT virtual reality in any way. Consider what it would be like if these characters were real beings in a real world, and act accordingly, excluding things like game mechanics and data.
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So, Xillix, any news on this? I'm kinda psyched here.
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So, Xillix, any news on this? I'm kinda psyched here.
Why excited if it's non-binding?
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We can decide the extent to which it might be binding.
Do the other posters think sangwa's version is vote ready?
Let's give them a moment to make addenda.
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Some "binding" would be fine, but I'll be glad enough to have the GM's agree to my general lines of Roleplaying (which are also expressed by the most other posters in this thread as well.)
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I think Sangwa outlined the basic pillars pretty well, by style and content. As well I think it leaves enough room to not appear limiting, even if it would be kinda 'more than merely recommended".
And I like how he worked out the difference player-character.
Good job.
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I've re-edited it, to have a better appearance and to be a bit more accessible too. Still like it?
PS: Some words like "required" and "must" were used only for the convenience of using diverse vocabulary. The people using it could probably alter those works to make it sound more or less "binding." I don't think it matters much though, since that part will always depend on what the Game Masters actually do (i.e. their own interpretation) and not on what the players think of it. I hope so, to guarantee there is only one "official" interpretation (the GM's).
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We can decide the extent to which it might be binding.
Do the other posters think sangwa's version is vote ready?
Let's give them a moment to make addenda.
The thing is we already have more than a covenant, we have rules, and we already struggle to enforce the rules.
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Don't be a pessimist, Zanzibar. Even if it doesn't work right away, it will in time. It's yet another good step towards something better.
EDIT:
Just comment my Covenant thingy. :P
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Gathered up the ideas generated in this thread, added to/tweaked a few, and attempted to split them into ones that are more "rules" (usually things already in the PS rules but still important to point out regarding RP) and "ideals" (General concepts that at the very least are really good suggestions). I seem to remember the settings team putting the kibosh on player characters posing as official guards, particularly since GMs are now actually RPing law enforcement roles. However, if I'm mistaken about this stance, let me know so I can rewrite it and make it more of a suggestion rather than a rule.
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Roleplay Principles.
1. All out of character (OOC) chat must be enclosed within a type of brackets.
This reduces confusion and shows respect for the other players roleplaying (RPing) around you.
Examples: [OOC comment], (OOC comment), {OOC comment}
2. No 1337 speak, IM abbreviations, or languages other than English in the main chat tab.
However, feel free to create a dialect or interesting speech pattern for your character.
3. Leave the official guarding to the government (and GMs).
GMs, Developers, etc. are the only people officially allowed to roleplay legitimate government officials. If your character strives to protect/serve the citizens of Yliakum, do it under your own banner not the government’s.
4. Roleplays should be “PG” rated.
PlaneShift is intended for a broad age range of players. Keep this in mind when creating RPs.
5. A character’s name is not known until it is heard IC.
Just as there are no floating nametags over our heads in real life, there are no floating tags in PlaneShift from an in-character perspective. In game nametags exist only for player convenience.
Roleplay Ideals
1. Give your character a description.
Character descriptions are only for what another person's character would see. Books are for autobiographies, character descriptions are not.
2. Stick with what is known about the PS world. (AKA: Know the settings)
A person must know the rules before they bend/break/add to them. All back-stories and character abilities should still be firmly aligned with what is known about the settings.
Note: PS is still a game heavily in development and therefore apt to change/grow/add to the in-game universe and lore.
3. Using /me or /my to indicate what your character is thinking is poor form.
Your thoughts are your own in RL. Your character’s thoughts are their own in PS.
4. In general, do not exceed your character’s race traits.
This includes extremes like attempting to RP a 7-foot tall dwarf or a Kran made entirely of vanilla ice cream, to less obvious faux pas like playing a character much older than any other of his species to ever walk the realm.
5. Don’t try to grab the spotlight; you’ll burn yourself.
An excellent way to turn-off fellow players to your roleplay is to constantly insist on being the most tragic, loud, dramatic character in the room. Not only is it obnoxious, it leaves zero room for anyone else to talk to you about their own character’s events or story.
6. Every great roleplayed strength should have an equally great weakness.
No weakness means zero conflict. It also ensures more thoughtful RPers will largely avoid you since it is no fun playing a game with someone that can never lose.
7. Ideally, roleplay and in-game stats should coincide.
While not always possible, if you are roleplaying a person that knows magic or is quick with a sword, it is probably a good idea to invest a little time training these skills using the game mechanics. Likewise, if you were RPing a farmer it would make little sense to train stats that make him the equivalent of a warrior.
8a. Do not take things said in character personally.
Unless someone is specifically harassing you (which should be reported to a GM) assume there is a nice person behind the character simply trying to liven up the PS universe. Just because their character is a thief, gruff, conceited, etc. does not mean the person playing them is the same way or intended any insult against you (the player).
8b. Do not use “being in character” as an excuse to be rude.
Remember, there are real people with real feelings behind every character. While a myriad of IC personalities makes roleplaying interesting, using your character as a convenient excuse to treat people poorly is not acceptable. Always be aware of the line between being IC and being just plain rude.
9. In general, roleplay should be done in the Main tab.
Using Tells, Group, and Guild tabs to roleplay means other players have no idea what your character is doing. Don’t deprive others of witnessing and perhaps participating in your roleplay.
10. Bald exposition is lazy roleplay.
Don’t cheat yourself with exposition you don’t need. It is unrealistic and removes a lot of the mystery from your character.
11. Your character only has as much power as the PS community accepts.
Just because you say you are a “powerful” mage/warrior/etc. does not mean others will treat you like one. A reputation is something that must be earned.
12. Have fun.
Never forget it’s just a game.
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I disagree with your "PG" rating. If anyone below 13 years old plays this game, then they often don't last long. Offer perhaps, a way to have people notify you if you are offending them, or just resort to petitions if you find someone going obviously way too far in mainchat.
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Garris, "PG" has nothing to do with the age of people playing the game but what is considered acceptable content. That one is taken pretty much straight out of the PS playing rules and short of discussing semantics, I don't really see much wiggle room to add to or leave it out.
Quote from Game Rules and Policies:
"RP Content:
Players have absolute freedom to RP any subject they want that fits within PS Settings. However, all content in public dialogue tabs in Planeshift must be PG Rated (Parental Guidance Suggested).
In other words: no profanity, no explicit sexual content, no RL drug use.
At the same time, parents of younger children are advised to guide their kids as they play the game, in order for them to learn the differences between what constitutes Roleplay and real life."
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I disagree with your "PG" rating. If anyone below 13 years old plays this game, then they often don't last long. Offer perhaps, a way to have people notify you if you are offending them, or just resort to petitions if you find someone going obviously way too far in mainchat.
Equally as important, just because a person is old enough doesn't mean they want to deal with any RPs that are more "mature".
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Right. Which is why a solution of offering an /ignore or /mute player from -your- chat button, perhaps, or having more mature ones sent to tells or group, or having a GM intervene.
Pg-13 perhaps, but not R.
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I disagree with your "PG" rating. If anyone below 13 years old plays this game, then they often don't last long. Offer perhaps, a way to have people notify you if you are offending them, or just resort to petitions if you find someone going obviously way too far in mainchat.
Equally as important, just because a person is old enough doesn't mean they want to deal with any RPs that are more "mature".
There's a difference between mature and racy. Shakespeare is mature. But on the other hand, Shakespeare is racy. See the difference?
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Lets not get into a semantic discussion over the word mature, you knew what she meant or you wouldn't have made the comment.
As for the PG rule, it's not open for debate, what you do in /tell or /group is up to you but I would advise you to use common sense and make sure that all participants are of age and avoid it in /guild unless you know all guild members are of age.
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Hurray for useless off-topic discussion. So, is my thingy vote worthy? Xillix asked you guys something and it doesn't seem he has his mind set yet.
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I still see the guidelines as divided in 3 main categories:
- How to RP with the tools (chat window, mechanics, PVP, various commands)
- How to stay in setting
- How to RP better (be consistent, don't say that you are in a RP, etc.)
I think there's more to do on the 1st category. Of course, the covenant can be updated as the game develops, so no need to make things exhaustive, but no need to rush things out either.
But I'll insist on voting for each entry separately. A referendum of 40 pages with 1 yes/no question, that's called the European constitution. We may need some Swiss expert for the making, yet I'd suggest to make each entry as short as possible, ideally just a few words.
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This community makes me feel hopeless. Do as I say!
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Do the other posters think sangwa's version is vote ready?
Busy so I didn't read of the conversation about Sangwa's version, just the post itself and I say its ready. There is nothing I feel needs to be added and I say we should all vote (hopefully for it to be approved :P ).
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I like it, :D but it would be nice to note that you can eventually have a particularly strong/powerful character (Duraza springs to mind :whistling: ) But that doesn't happen over night and those kinds of things usually take long and well thought out RPs to achieve.
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Sangwa did a good job taking an existing guide and streamlining it into a readable form. However, it still seems to me like a guide intended for new(er) players instead of a covenant by PlaneShift’s roleplayers for PlaneShift’s roleplayers.
We already have a rulebook (The PS "Game Rules and Policies") and can never have enough game guides but this has the possibility to be something different; a community created declaration of RP ideals. By gathering the ideas generated in this thread I think we at least have a good, fresh start to achieving this goal.
I won’t be the one to move for ratification but, I do propose we keep working on the task at hand and collectively keep refining and creating new ideas until we capture something that truly embodies the ideals unique to PlaneShift RP and its players.
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Just something I think should be brought up -
Chat filters were designed with a purpose - so that those who want to swear violently can do so freely while those who do not want to experience profanity see only asterisks. I believe this is very appropriate for PS.
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Just something I think should be brought up -
Chat filters were designed with a purpose - so that those who want to swear violently can do so freely while those who do not want to experience profanity see only asterisks. I believe this is very appropriate for PS.
Chat filters are there as a buffer against those who would choose to break the rules despite knowing better.
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For new players, you say...
Since I consider people should be completely sure of what they're committing too, I prefered to make sure they would understand what the covenant is about even if they haven't read the guide, which won't happen scarcely. I find it important that everyone can access it (even in less informed states of mind :P), new players and old players that didn't get it the first time around alike.
Still, I see what you mean. But I like mine because it doesn't focus on many key concepts, but on some solid general guidelines.
Illysia: I didn't pay much attention to specific character traits, like being powerful, since I rather chose to keep it easy to accept (i.e. be as vague as possible to include all types of characters.)
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I think Marqsaynt has a point here. Sangwas post may represent "basic pillars", while Marqsaynts displays guidelines more into details.
So why not appending the latter to the first adequately? Some points could be stroked from Marq's, such as no.5.
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Why: If the Character you are roleplaying with/to has no ability regarding telepathy Noone should have any idea what so ever what You are thinking.
<snip></snip>
A player does not have access to your thoughts and emotions. Only what can be observed by the expressions carried out.
That makes sense, but mimics do it all the time. Some of it can be pretty good, so... it's sort of like porn. No one can define porn, but we all know what it is.
As far as telepathy... those /tell and guild chats... aren't those... dare I say... telepathy?
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Why: If the Character you are roleplaying with/to has no ability regarding telepathy Noone should have any idea what so ever what You are thinking.
<snip></snip>
A player does not have access to your thoughts and emotions. Only what can be observed by the expressions carried out.
That makes sense, but mimics do it all the time. Some of it can be pretty good, so... it's sort of like porn. No one can define porn, but we all know what it is.
As far as telepathy... those /tell and guild chats... aren't those... dare I say... telepathy?
Porn is the combination of sex and violence in media.
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I agree with Raekh. Both sets of "guidelines" should be implemented. I think with a little touch up Xillix will be able to poll this to everyone.
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Porn is the combination of sex and violence in media.
And where does art end and porn begin? That's the point. If you really think you can nail down what is porn and what isn't and reach consensus with everyone else in the world so that a fair law can be written, I do know people who would love to have your input on Internet Governance. ;D
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if a covenant is ratified by the entire community I will advance its inclusion in the tutorial . . .
That should answer your needs.
Now aggregate thoughts, assess and let me know when you are ready . . . if ten of you will say that a document is ready for a vote I will put said document up for a vote.
No linking, do it here.
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Why: If the Character you are roleplaying with/to has no ability regarding telepathy Noone should have any idea what so ever what You are thinking.
<snip></snip>
A player does not have access to your thoughts and emotions. Only what can be observed by the expressions carried out.
That makes sense, but mimics do it all the time. Some of it can be pretty good, so... it's sort of like porn. No one can define porn, but we all know what it is.
As far as telepathy... those /tell and guild chats... aren't those... dare I say... telepathy?
Porn is the combination of sex and violence in media.
One better, from Merriam Webster:
1 : the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement
2 : material (as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement
3 : the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction <the pornography of violence>
I hate to say it but the above is why I now have to say the current documents aren't enough. Maybe one will work as a cursory guide for the people we know won't read the detailed version. But, there does need to be a more detailed document accompanying it. It will need to specify how things are viewed so that loopholes and playing with semantics are rendered basically moot.
If we set the precedent now, we won't have to rehash certain things every time they come up. (I.E. is it really considered mature content, why bother if there are no little kids around, everyone is of age, etc....) Not that I am calling for a totalitarian approach but some stuff (especially main tab) should be extra fortified against loopholes which means more thought being put into it.
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One better, from Merriam Webster:
1 : the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement
2 : material (as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement
3 : the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction <the pornography of violence>
Good. Now define erotic behavior, et al. It's a pretty big hole you'll fall into. While this may be considered off topic, the point I have been trying to make despite responses based on the assumption that people who write laws cannot read is that - it's decidedly unclear. As is roleplay. In the case of defining pornography such that art is not censored, this is seen very clearly. In the case of roleplay, it is not always clear.
The point that using 'telepathy' in /me commands doesn't balance well with a /tell ability, or guild chat. So roleplay etiquette, as being discussed, would have to cover both if the idea is to create a roleplay experience.
I hate to say it but the above is why I now have to say the current documents aren't enough. Maybe one will work as a cursory guide for the people we know won't read the detailed version. But, there does need to be a more detailed document accompanying it. It will need to specify how things are viewed so that loopholes and playing with semantics are rendered basically moot.
And so...
If we set the precedent now, we won't have to rehash certain things every time they come up. (I.E. is it really considered mature content, why bother if there are no little kids around, everyone is of age, etc....) Not that I am calling for a totalitarian approach but some stuff (especially main tab) should be extra fortified against loopholes which means more thought being put into it.
And if you set a totalitarian precedent now, you can probably expect it to be increasingly broken over time.
In my experience, peer pressure works best. It's a whole new world and there are plenty of grey areas. I'm going to go with my own rendition of roleplay despite what anyone writes. If we have to remember rules and subparagraphs of a document, where is the roleplay?
That's my two cents.
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Good. Now define erotic behavior, et al. It's a pretty big hole you'll fall into. While this may be considered off topic, the point I have been trying to make despite responses based on the assumption that people who write laws cannot read is that - it's decidedly unclear. As is roleplay. In the case of defining pornography such that art is not censored, this is seen very clearly. In the case of roleplay, it is not always clear.
Zontick, the only people who are going to debate it that far are the people who know exactly what it means. A person can't debate nuance without a firm grasp of the core concepts. Long story short, that specific an argument means they understand well enough to know where the boundaries are intended to be.
The point that using 'telepathy' in /me commands doesn't balance well with a /tell ability, or guild chat. So roleplay etiquette, as being discussed, would have to cover both if the idea is to create a roleplay experience.
And so...
And if you set a totalitarian precedent now, you can probably expect it to be increasingly broken over time.
Now, who's not reading. ;D I specifically said to not have a tolitarian approach and rule break is why there are consequences. Everyone knows there will be a percentage of people not following the rules, there are provisions for that.
In my experience, peer pressure works best. It's a whole new world and there are plenty of grey areas. I'm going to go with my own rendition of roleplay despite what anyone writes. If we have to remember rules and subparagraphs of a document, where is the roleplay?
That's my two cents.
True there is myriad... nigh infinite shades of grey. But, as in real life, you can't represent them all, so the question is: Which ones do you really want? Because, well all know you can't really have everything. Further, if we take the "few rules as possible" argument in to real life you end up with Anarchy. That usually doesn't go well.
You are overlooking the fact that some people will look for loopholes and try to exploit them just for the fun of it or to be a pain. That can ruin a far large percentage of the community's playing experience.
Also, you have to draw a line in the sand somewhere. You may know a good place to stop, but, trust me, people will test the boundaries often. If you constantly relax the standard because some people don't want to stick to it then you will end up no standard because someone will always be unhappy.
Lastly, if the roleplay is within settings and reasonable then itshould have no problem. Nobody is calling for "RP Naziism". But, if it strays too far out of those bounds then yeah, someone will have to check it. That is why society has rule, to keep the order.
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I agree with Raekh. Both sets of "guidelines" should be implemented.
Sounds good to me.
Looked over Sangwa's proposal again and tried to pull all the basics that aren't already in my earlier compilation. Ideally I'd like to make an expanded version with the RP "basics" listed first under their own heading (so now there would be "Basics, "Principles," and "Ideals). However, before going on any further I would like to get Sangwa's input on the work. A lot of the wording is still his but, I did add to/condense it some and shuffled a few things around.
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Roleplay Basics
1. This is a Roleplay (RP) Game.
You and your character are not the same person. Live as the character you create.
Example: In Character (IC) you may want to overthrow Yliakum's government, but out of character (OOC) you are a real person having fun playing a game.
2. Planeshift is a fantasy game with its own unique world.
Always keep your character’s chat, action, and history consistent with the PS universe.
Note: This means there are no such things as tanks, lightsabers, guns, vampires, angels, demons, Jedi, hobbits, etc. in the world of PlaneShift.
3. When in doubt ask a Game Master (GM).
They volunteer for the love of the game and are there to help.
4. Be Respectful.
The fun of an MMORPG is interacting with other people. Be sure to treat other players with respect.
5. Be consistent.
Stay true to your character. It will make them more realistic and fun to RP with.
Example: If your character wouldn’t associate with criminals, don’t have him/her/kra knowingly run an errand for a notorious crime lord.
6. Do not “God-Mod.”
A player should always have a chance to react to another player’s roleplayed action. Ideally, all players involved should agree with the outcome or on a fair method of deciding the result.
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EDIT: Hadn't read Marqsaynt's post.
I like it mostly, it surely is shorter and up front. I'll have to rephrase it to give you my opinion though:
1. This is a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Play Game (MMORPG).
You and your character are not the same person. Live as the character you create, enjoy as the civilized person you are.
Example: In Character (IC) you may want to overthrow Yliakum's government, but out of character (OOC) you should just want to have fun, like the rest of us.
2. Respect PlaneShift's unique game world.
Always keep your character’s chat, action, and history consistent with the PS universe.
Note: Make sure you know what exists in PlaneShift before making anything up. Self phones, vampires, hobbits, etc. do not belong in this game.
3. Respect other Players.
The fun of an MMORPG is interacting with other people. Be sure to treat other players with respect.
Note: Remember that a player should always have a chance to react to another player’s action, so everyone has a role in this play. Ideally, all players involved should agree with the outcome or on a fair method of deciding the result.
4. When in doubt ask a Game Master (GM).
They volunteer for the love of the game and are there to help.
5. Be consistent.
Stay true to your character. It will make it more realistic and fun to role play with.
Example: If your character wouldn’t associate with criminals, don’t have him/her/kra knowingly run an errand for a notorious crime lord. You might get a good reward, but your character will probably lose its chance at leading the lawful life you wanted for it.
(As you can see mostly wording choices and the removal of the elite-sounding "God-Mod" term which should be replaced with the simple concept of respecting other people.
EDIT: Also made the titles sound like stuff you have to agree to do, like a covenant requires, I think.)
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I'd personally be happy with only the following 2 guidelines, which are pretty inclusive:
- Whatever you do, keep it immersive: Things happen in Yliakum, not on a computer screen.
- Live by example. Stick to the rules of the game even when others don't.
But of course that doesn't help with specific cases. So I just aggregated the ideas written along this thread. There's about everything said in one form or another, I believe; I just tried to keep each entry short for an easier read. I'll edit this summary as much as needed, according to the next posts and any suggestion.
Dialog:
- Use english. No leet, no abbreviations, no foreign languages; all these are OOC.
- Keep OOC text to a minimum.
- Enclose all OOC text within brackets.
- Try to answer ICly to OOC questions and remarks.
- Remember that typing and reading take time. Keep your texts short, and allow your interlocutors some time to respond.
Other tools:
- Try to use the Auction tab like a shouted announcement, not like an internet personal ad.
- Use your description box for a physical description, not for your biography.
- Do not issue a /challenge to an unknown character without prior dialog. This is merely a tool for when you both have already agreed to a duel.
- Avoid being /away for a long time.
- Refrain from playing a telepath. The /tell and guild chat are convenience tools, not immersive RP tools.
Etiquette:
- Don't take things said in game personally. Things are said to your character, not to you.
- Your character may be rude, but as a player, you must be polite.
- Don't deprive others of your RP. Do all the roleplay in the Main chat tab.
- Don't exclude others from your RP. If you want a private session, find a private place.
- You can't force others to RP with you. If you are being ignored, play with someone else.
- Don't ignore another character. If you don't want to RP with one, /tell him so diplomatically.
- Do not harass another player.
- If someone harasses you, /report or /petition to a Game Master
- Do not /report people who ignore you, for it's their right to do so.
- Do not complain or get angry for getting killed in a PvP zone, for it's fair game.
- RP should be “PG” rated.
- Always leave people a chance to react to your roleplayed actions.
- Be cooperative even when competitive. Even conflicts should make all parties happy.
- A Game Master always has the final word. If you argue, keep it very short and don't insist.
In Setting:
- Stick with what you know about the PS world (biosphere, geography, economy, politics, etc.)
- Don't try to bend the environment to your liking; learn to like the environment.
- Play one of the given races, not something inspired from another universe.
- Interact with others as your character would, not how you, the player, would.
- Respect the names conventions.
- Don't assume you know someone's name because you see it written. Play your ignorance as much as your knowledge.
- Don't assume you know a guild because you see it written on a name tag.
- Don't ignore the law. Don't pretend NPCs guards are not there because you don't see them move or react.
- Leave the official guarding to the government (and Game Masters).
- Avoid the use of figures to describe your skills, goods quality, etc.
- Avoid the use of K (kilo) for prices. "8 circles" is immersive, "2K" is not.
- Immerse your guild in Yliakum. A guild can't have social power if it doesn't have a purpose.
- Roleplay your guild recruitment.
- If you have a doubt about being in setting or not, ask for help.
Playing the role:
- Have at least a basic personality and background; it will evolve naturally with your story.
- See your character as a living being, not a list of stats and skills.
- Be consistent. Don't be someone one day and someone else the next day.
- Don't do things just because you can. Act with a purpose in your storyline.
- Avoid using /me or /my to indicate what you are thinking.
- Don’t try to grab the spotlight; let everybody play their part.
- Don’t cheat yourself with exposition you don’t need. It's unrealistic and removes your mystery.
- Have only as much power as the community accepts. A reputation must be earned.
- Don't be so obsessed with being unique.
- Give your character weaknesses, to rise the interest of other players.
- Don't act something that your skills tell you you can't act. Ideally, RP and stats should coincide.
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Porn is the combination of sex and violence in media.
And where does art end and porn begin? That's the point. If you really think you can nail down what is porn and what isn't and reach consensus with everyone else in the world so that a fair law can be written, I do know people who would love to have your input on Internet Governance. ;D
Didn't I just nail down what is porn?
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Like this version of the basics a lot, Sangwa. The change of titles was definitely for the best and the tweaks you made I think are all improvements. Merged the "Basics" with the "Principles" and "Ideals" sections. There may be some redundancies now that need to be moved/merged/deleted and any ideas people have on what should go under what heading I'd appreciate hearing.
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Role-Play Basics
1. This is a Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Play Game (MMORPG).
You and your character are not the same person. Live as the character you create, enjoy as the civilized person you are.
Example: In Character (IC) you may want to overthrow Yliakum's government, but out of character (OOC) you should just want to have fun, like the rest of us.
2. Respect PlaneShift's unique game world.
Always keep your character’s chat, action, and history consistent with the PS universe.
Note: Make sure you know what exists in PlaneShift before making anything up. Cell phones, vampires, hobbits, etc. do not belong in this game.
3. Respect other players.
The fun of an MMORPG is interacting with other people. Be sure to treat other players with respect.
Note: Remember that a player should always have a chance to react to another player’s action, so everyone has a role in this play. Ideally, all players involved should agree with the outcome or on a fair method of deciding the result.
4. When in doubt ask a Game Master (GM).
They volunteer for the love of the game and are there to help.
5. Be consistent.
Stay true to your character. It will make it more realistic and fun to role-play with.
Example: If your character wouldn’t associate with criminals, don’t have him/her/kra knowingly run an errand for a notorious crime lord. You might get a good reward, but your character will probably lose their chance of leading the lawful life you wanted.
Role-Play Principles
6. All out of character (OOC) chat must be enclosed within a type of brackets.
This reduces confusion and shows respect for the other players role-playing (RPing) around you.
Examples: [OOC comment], (OOC comment), {OOC comment}
7. No 1337 speak, IM abbreviations, or languages other than English in the main chat tab.
However, feel free to create a dialect or interesting speech pattern for your character.
8. Leave the official guarding to the government (and GMs).
GMs, Developers, etc. are the only people officially allowed to role-play legitimate government officials. If your character strives to protect/serve the citizens of Yliakum, do it under your own banner not the government’s.
9. Role-plays should be “PG” rated.
PlaneShift is intended for a broad age range of players. Keep this in mind when creating RPs.
10. A character’s name is not known until it is heard IC.
Just as there are no floating nametags over our heads in real life, there are no floating tags in PlaneShift from an in-character perspective. In game nametags exist only for player convenience.
Role-Play Ideals
11. Give your character a description.
Character descriptions are only for what another person's character would see. Books are for autobiographies, character descriptions are not.
12. Stick with what is known about the PS world. (AKA: Know the settings)
A person must know the rules before they bend/break/add to them. All back-stories and character abilities should still be firmly aligned with what is known about the settings.
Note: PS is still a game heavily in development and therefore apt to change/grow/add to the in-game universe and lore.
13. Using /me or /my to indicate what your character is thinking is poor form.
Your thoughts are your own in RL. Your character’s thoughts are their own in PS.
14. In general, do not exceed your character’s race traits.
This includes extremes like attempting to RP a 7-foot tall dwarf or a Kran made entirely of vanilla ice cream, to less obvious faux pas like playing a character much older than any other of his species to ever walk the realm.
15. Don’t try to grab the spotlight; you’ll burn yourself.
An excellent way to turn-off fellow players to your role-play is to constantly insist on being the most tragic, loud, dramatic character in the room. Not only is it obnoxious, it leaves zero room for anyone else to talk to you about their own character’s events or story.
16. Every great role-played strength should have an equally great weakness.
No weakness means zero conflict. It also ensures more thoughtful RPers will largely avoid you since it is no fun playing a game with someone that can never lose.
17. Ideally, role-play and in-game stats should coincide.
While not always possible, if you are role-playing a person that knows magic or is quick with a sword, it is probably a good idea to invest a little time training these skills using the game mechanics. Likewise, if you were RPing a farmer it would make little sense to train stats that make him the equivalent of a warrior.
18a. Do not take things said in character personally.
Unless someone is specifically harassing you (which should be reported to a GM) assume there is a nice person behind the character simply trying to liven up the PS universe. Just because their character is a thief, gruff, conceited, etc. does not mean the person playing them is the same way or intended any insult against you (the player).
18b. Do not use “being in character” as an excuse to be rude.
Remember, there are real people with real feelings behind every character. While a myriad of IC personalities makes role-playing interesting, using your character as a convenient excuse to treat people poorly is not acceptable. Always be aware of the line between being IC and being just plain rude.
19. In general, role-play should be done in the Main tab.
Using Tells, Group, and Guild tabs to role-play means other players have no idea what your character is doing. Don’t deprive others of witnessing and perhaps participating in your role-play.
20. Bald exposition is lazy role-play.
Don’t cheat yourself with exposition you don’t need. It is unrealistic and removes a lot of the mystery from your character.
21. Your character only has as much power as the PS community accepts.
Just because you say you are a “powerful” mage/warrior/etc. does not mean others will treat you like one. A reputation is something that must be earned.
22. Have fun.
Never forget it’s just a game.
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Thanks Marq.
That nails it down, I believe!
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#6: Some don't think OOC talk belongs in open chat, period, and it's disruptive even if it has brackets. I think there's truth to it.
#8: PlaneShift has a medieval setting, and vigilante justice was very common in medieval times. I think vigilantism can be IC and within the settings, although it would be punished IC as well.
16#: I find this one to be a little limiting and artificial... what if you just want to be a wise old man, or a good fighter? Some characters are very simple. I think conflict comes from the game itself with invasions from the stone tunnels and such.
17#: Grinding isn't fun though. A lot of people would leave the game if they're forced to grind just so that they can roleplay...
19#: I often use /tell to whisper to people, or send notes.
21#: I don't entirely understand this one. Can you write more on it?
22#: Truth!
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I think on #21, it's a polite way of saying "No god-modding". Basically, you only have as much power as the other players are willing to attribute to you. So you have to earn their respect to earn the power you want through roleplay.
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zanzibar, #21 is stating that you can't come out of nowhere and have all of this power than can kill anyone and destroy the lower levels with a hellish fireball. If you haven't 'earned' your power, so to speak, then you don't have it. Anyone can write some fanciful background and have a lot of power, but true roleplayers earn it through real roleplay, or stats...either/or.
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When Xillix started playing as the Octarch, people loved it. There were maybe a hundred people (or hundreds of people) who got involved in the RP and supported it...
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As were many off-the-mark RP's. Now there's settings, though. I don't even think Xillix would attempt being an Octarch anymore.
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Although since she's involved with settings, I don't see a good reason why they can't appoint her or someone else an octarch.
If said Octarch were to abuse power, they could remove them. Plus, why not? Any person in power can abuse it. It might turn out to be good RP, hmm?
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As were many off-the-mark RP's. Now there's settings, though. I don't even think Xillix would attempt being an Octarch anymore.
There were settings then too. There have always been settings.
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I'm not sure we need to add the Principles and Ideals. We already have a role playing guide, we already have a note that tells people not to abuse OOC chat and the PG-rated thing is also common knowledge. If the purpose is to have just some guidelines to be agreed to (a covenant), I think we nailed it with the Basics alone.
The rest is superfluous, since you can find it in the manuals (role play guide, game guide.) Perhaps a note that points towards the manuals would be fine.
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@Sangwa
The whole purpose for adding the “basics” section was to make the covenant approachable to everyone. By adding such fundamental concepts we ensured that even a new(er) role player would be able to get something out of the list. The “ideals” section is largely written for the more veteran players, ones that (hopefully) already know the basics but are looking for some direction with more advanced role-play philosophy. If we were to remove the entire “ideals” section, then the covenant would be great for newer role-players but largely redundant, and generally valueless for the more experienced PlaneShift community. In order to represent and serve the entire PlaneShift role-player base, both “high” and “low” RP concepts must be included in the covenant.
The “principles” section also serves a purpose, one similar to the “basics.” By taking statutes from the PS guide, we are not only re-emphasizing important rules but also showing how they apply specifically to role-play. The purpose for this brief section may not be as lofty as the other two but I still find it valuable as a tool for making the covenant as comprehensive as possible.
To call the rest of this document superfluous seems rather one-sided particularly since I see the “ideals” section as the one that has the least representation in PlaneShift guides. Claiming that the “principles” and “ideals” parts should be stricken from the covenant do to appearing in game guides seems a bit ridiculous to me as an argument, particularly since the “basics” section is so basic it would (and rightfully so) be included in virtually any guide written on the subject.
You find the “basics” the most important piece. I find the “principles” the most essential. By including what we both view as indispensable we (hopefully) will be representing the great majority of PS role-players and their voices on what they desire this covenant to be.
@Zanzibar
"#6: Some don't think OOC talk belongs in open chat, period, and it's disruptive even if it has brackets. I think there's truth to it."
I thought about this when I actually was adding this "rule." Biggest problem I saw was getting majority of players to agree to a stricter version. Also, if OOC chat has zero place in the main tab, why would rules regarding brackets exist at all?
"#8: PlaneShift has a medieval setting, and vigilante justice was very common in medieval times. I think vigilantism can be IC and within the settings, although it would be punished IC as well."
Completely agree, this only applies to someone that wants to RP someone official, i.e. A legitimate member of the Sunshine Squadron, an Octarch, etc.
"16#: I find this one to be a little limiting and artificial... what if you just want to be a wise old man, or a good fighter? Some characters are very simple. I think conflict comes from the game itself with invasions from the stone tunnels and such."
This one would only have to be considered if you were RPing a powerful character. Simple characters need not apply. Basically it was a page I'm pretty sure I stole from Duraza's book and seems to me at the very least a good way to not upset your fellow players by RPing invincible.
"17#: Grinding isn't fun though. A lot of people would leave the game if they're forced to grind just so that they can roleplay..."
Agreed, which is why it is "ideally." In a perfect world all stats would match up nicely with RP. This isn't always possible. But, just the same, it would be pretty short sighted to create a RP mage character that can't even cast a spell, even if it is just for RP show.
"19#: I often use /tell to whisper to people, or send notes."
As do I. If you get the desire, feel free to re-write this one with the caveat about using /tell for whispers and notes. Either way, I'll try to make sure this detail is included in any "final" version.
"21#: I don't entirely understand this one. Can you write more on it?"
Garris and Shaman nailed it.
Hopefully this cleared a few things up. Keep the thoughts and comments coming though, I'm all for refining this covenant through trial by fire.
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I thought about this when I actually was adding this "rule." Biggest problem I saw was getting majority of players to agree to a stricter version. Also, if OOC chat has zero place in the main tab, why would rules regarding brackets exist at all?
Because players don't respect the rules, so the devs find compromises that players will accept. Brackets are a compromise.
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I thought about this when I actually was adding this "rule." Biggest problem I saw was getting majority of players to agree to a stricter version. Also, if OOC chat has zero place in the main tab, why would rules regarding brackets exist at all?
Because players don't respect the rules, so the devs find compromises that players will accept. Brackets are a compromise.
Some how I knew you were going to say that. :P I still can envision situations where a person would need to make an OOC comment in the main tab and /tell, /group, and /guild would be inefficient or impossible. So, I choose (perhaps overly optimistically) to believe that it exists at least partially due to there being some valid use. Perhaps adding something about limiting the use of OOC in the main tab would help appease and clarify things though?
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I also think that, for the sake of realism, all the cameras should be locked in 1st person view.
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I also think that, for the sake of realism, all the cameras should be locked in 1st person view.
That would be a bit silly :P If anything I'd say 3rd person. Your playing as your character, you yourself are not your character. You know things that your character does not and you as a player should be aware of things in your environment that your character does not realize.
I always think role-playing to be just like acting. The actors know the script and know exactly what's going to happen when it is. There aren't any surprises and among players there shouldn't be unless you as a player feel like being surprised is more fun.
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I also think that, for the sake of realism, all the cameras should be locked in 1st person view.
That would be a bit silly :P If anything I'd say 3rd person. Your playing as your character, you yourself are not your character. You know things that your character does not and you as a player should be aware of things in your environment that your character does not realize.
I always think role-playing to be just like acting. The actors know the script and know exactly what's going to happen when it is. There aren't any surprises and among players there shouldn't be unless you as a player feel like being surprised is more fun.
It's for immersion in the game world. I think being close to your character is fun.
Role-playing isn't acting, unless you're talking about improvisation... you're given some basic instructions, and then you're told to "Go." If there's a script, you're doing it wrong. If you know exactly what's going to happen, you're doing it extremely wrong. Surprise is what makes RP great. In fact, I would say that without the unexpected, there's no point to it.
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It's for immersion in the game world. I think being close to your character is fun.
Role-playing isn't acting, unless you're talking about improvisation... you're given some basic instructions, and then you're told to "Go." If there's a script, you're doing it wrong. If you know exactly what's going to happen, you're doing it extremely wrong. Surprise is what makes RP great. In fact, I would say that without the unexpected, there's no point to it.
Personally, I don't see how 3rd person changes the surprise. The only difference is you the player are surprised before your character. I personally like being surprised as a player first. It gives me time to prepare a good reaction. It also gives me a chance to stop myself from going with my first impulse to something like an attack, somehow avoiding it. For me personally, in the moment of things I tend to be much more willing to godmod. If I give myself a chance as a player to think things through I won't.
I should take back the script example though. Your right there as you shouldn't know everything the way a script implies.
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I just like the visual effect of the 1st person camera. It makes me feel more like I'm my character. 3rd person view is too much like being god.
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Hmmm. Locked in 1st person? No. I would rather not have to think of a reason to roleplay Tunnel vision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_vision) and any number of diseases or injuries that result in an unmovable stiff neck, including, but not limited to meningitis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meningitis) or whiplash.
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Marqsaynt: I'm considering the Covenant merely something players have to agree to, old ones or new ones. I currently think the problem isn't lack of explanation but lack of agreement on the necessity to respect the setting and the players. How the players are supposed to respect the settings and players should be up to the GM's though, as they'll be the ones keeping people in line.
Plus, there are some guidelines that seem a bit stiff. You shouldn't want to be on the spotlight all the time, but there are characters that are just like that (though their success is another different business). Most character will either do good or evil, but some characters might be completely random (i.e. chaotic.)
I'd rephrase the consistency point, for that effect:
5. Be consistent.
Stay true to your character, because that is the only way he or she will become what you desire.
Note: This is a game where players often challenge each other and your character will end up being a result of other people's actions. If you want to follow a specific path with your hero, you are the one that has to focus on it. You can't become a hero here just because you wish, first you must earn it.
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Hmmm. Locked in 1st person? No. I would rather not have to think of a reason to roleplay Tunnel vision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_vision) and any number of diseases or injuries that result in an unmovable stiff neck, including, but not limited to meningitis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meningitis) or whiplash.
There's no tunnel vision if you have PlaneShift set to wide screen. :)
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I have an 11" CRT, plz.
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I have an 11" CRT, plz.
If your screen has a resolution of 1024×768, you can set PS to run in windowed mode at a resolution of 1024 x 512, or whatever else you feel like. The client is very flexible in that regard.
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Yet another very useful digression.
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@Zanzibar: It is your preference, great, it is not mine. How does that relate in any way to the RP covenant we are trying to come up with here that sets a basic foundation for character to character interaction?
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@Zanzibar: It is your preference, great, it is not mine. How does that relate in any way to the RP covenant we are trying to come up with here that sets a basic foundation for character to character interaction?
How to create the most immersive RP experience.
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That is not what this thread is about though. This thread is about basics of character to character interaction. Not player to character or character to player or even player to player.
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I also think that, for the sake of realism, all the cameras should be locked in 1st person view.
@Zanzibar: It is your preference, great, it is not mine. How does that relate in any way to the RP covenant we are trying to come up with here that sets a basic foundation for character to character interaction?
How to create the most immersive RP experience.
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5784/shot93sn2.th.jpg) (http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5784/shot93sn2.jpg)
Maybe force them to use a proper resolution in addition. 11" screen? less than 1024x768, dang, you really spoil the fun for others. ::|
"Rule, guideline, whatever" No. 22 should be removed or altered. What's "fun" for the ones isn't funny at all for others. And we don't want to hear excuses like "I had to follow No. 22".
The most important parts, in my oppinion are:
You are NOT your character.
Make your character act the way your character would actually act. (Assuming you have some kind of plan about your char, of course)
Or in other words Don't (make your character) act OOC
The "OOC in brackets" need not be discussed, it's in the rules already and must be followed.
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"Rule, guideline, whatever" No. 22 should be removed or altered. What's "fun" for the ones isn't funny at all for others. And we don't want to hear excuses like "I had to follow No. 22".
Well with rule 3 you can't really make that argument. You can have fun but you can't do it by ruining someone else's fun. That would be mistreating other players so you'd have to follow No. 22 some other way. :P
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So what are the choices we currently have? Duraza's and Marqsaynt's? I'd rather not have my old one run up against Marqsaynt, since the Basics on his new version cover the Covenant function better while being very clear.
What do you think about the rephrase on the Consistency point?
(Just a small request: As awesome as your off topic opinions might sound, keep them to your silly self.)
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Sorry for the double post, but I find it very amusing that before my request this post was posted at daily. I guess people don't like posting unless it is to show off some unique off topic opinion! And that's downright hilarious.
Xillix, it seems it'll be a bit hard to have 10 people vote on the choices. I think you should simply take Duraza's, and both Marqsaynt's (Basics + Principles + Ideals vs Just Basics) for that effect. In fact, it would be even better for you to just take one of these yourself and have it rephrased to further meet your standards.
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I feel a strong desire to drop a little stink bomb here. When there is something, that goes on my nerves, then it's people, trying to tell me, how I should enjoy something. Having an etiquette may seem like a fine idea, but my experience with this game is, that certain people will just print it out, put it under their pillow and wave it in the face of anyone daring to violate it. I have had it with "roleplayers" (and even GMs), bullying me into "correct" (from their point of view) gameplay.
So, lets see, how we can ridicule those "rules" in an RP way.
Like this version of the basics a lot, Sangwa. The change of titles was definitely for the best and the tweaks you made I think are all improvements. Merged the "Basics" with the "Principles" and "Ideals" sections. There may be some redundancies now that need to be moved/merged/deleted and any ideas people have on what should go under what heading I'd appreciate hearing.
1. This is a Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Play Game (MMORPG).
You and your character are not the same person. Live as the character you create, enjoy as the civilized person you are.
Good one. Print that out, nail it to Kada-Els door and preferably to the forehead of it's regular patrons. Either they violate this rule or they lack any social life.
2. Respect PlaneShift's unique game world.
Always keep your character’s chat, action, and history consistent with the PS universe.
Note: Make sure you know what exists in PlaneShift before making anything up. Cell phones, vampires, hobbits, etc. do not belong in this game.
Gee, we better close down all the taverns at once now. They are places of heavy carousing and as we all know, there does not exist a single outhouse in the whole world, let alone a hospital to treat wracked bladders. Do I have to stop talking about my weapons research program now? You know, trying to combine the light glyph with a sabre, because the sewers are so dark? Can't I call the hot girls at the tavern "vamps" anymore? Till know, I was almost sure, that "Hobbit" was a word in the gobble language, refering to a small creature with hairy palms. Oh and did I tell you about that time, when Tyrus tried touring Yliakum with his own band? They called themselves "the phones". Of course, if you know his lyrics, you wouldn't be surprised, that they eventually ended up in prison for turning the stomach of the octarch upside down. Afterwards, they disbanded, but "cell phones" really became a running gag.
On a funny side note: It's typically the roleplayers, that do not know what exists in the world, because unlike the powerlevelers, they often do not care enough about questing.
On another side note: You might have noticed, that the essence of roleplay IS to make things up. Otherwise, you are just plain you. If you do not have any fantasy, what are you doing in a fantasy world then? Things I make up, may in fact exist on the lower levels or maybe I am just plain lying to you and making shit up as I go. Whole religions are build on that foundation in the real world. So where exactly is the problem with me playing a swindler, sharlatan or quack, who'd tell you anything, if it just serves my needs? My character is not required to tell you the truth in any way and if you want an example of my point, try visiting Alderaan Phostle.
3. Respect other players.
The fun of an MMORPG is interacting with other people. Be sure to treat other players with respect.
Note: Remember that a player should always have a chance to react to another player’s action, so everyone has a role in this play. Ideally, all players involved should agree with the outcome or on a fair method of deciding the result.
I thought, we were roleplaying here? So my choice for roles is limited to "carebear" now? A fair method to decide the outcome of something ... ... Gee, I wish there where game mechanics for that. Oh wait, there are! How about this: You try to godmod in front of me and I kick your behind all the way to the death realm for it?
4. When in doubt ask a Game Master (GM).
They volunteer for the love of the game and are there to help.
Please attach a shovel to your petition. The petition interface sucks (at least it did, last time, I saw it) and I bet, GMs wil just love to dig through piles of petitions, asking trivialities, just to be on the safe side.
5. Be consistent.
Stay true to your character. It will make it more realistic and fun to role-play with.
Why? Roleplaying is about playing roles (mind the plural). I like to switch occasionally between a lot of different personalities (some are even nice and helpful). I could of course make different chars to please my schitzophrenia, but unfortunatly I prefer to skip the hassle of leveling several avatars to usefulness.
Example: If your character wouldn’t associate with criminals, don’t have him/her/kra knowingly run an errand for a notorious crime lord. You might get a good reward, but your character will probably lose their chance of leading the lawful life you wanted.
Uh hm ... So if instead, I wanted to be that notorious crime lord myself, I should stop doing errands for the government, giving me all the requesites (you know, glyphs, insider knowledge, etc.) needed to become it in the first place? To stress that one out even further: How am I suppose to know the settings, which I am suppose to stick to, if I don't do the quests telling me the background story of the world, just because I am not suppose to like a certain NPC?
6. All out of character (OOC) chat must be enclosed within a type of brackets.
This reduces confusion and shows respect for the other players role-playing (RPing) around you.
Examples: [OOC comment], (OOC comment), {OOC comment}
Why? Do I have to assume, that all roleplayers are kind of stupid and do not realize, that something is spoken OOCly, if not stressed out by some markup language on *every* line of the conversation? How about respecting other people's intellect here? I have no problem with a convention of using an OOC marker to show [start of OOC] and optionally [end of OOC], but the bracket fetish, some "roleplayers" seem to have is utmost ridicolous. As for the other people around me, that may get confused: If they are not part of the conversation (e.g. because they came in late), why would they even care in the first place, because, they are *gasp* not part of the conversation.
7. No 1337 speak, IM abbreviations, or languages other than English in the main chat tab.
However, feel free to create a dialect or interesting speech pattern for your character.
So 1337 is not an interesting speech pattern? I find it about as interesting as fake scotish accents mixed with complicated Shakespear style grammar, which actually nobody ever spoke outside of theatres. That aside, I see chat as a means to convey an idea. Granted, something like "/me <expression of emotion> <what I want to say>" looks very stylish. But it is also complicated. If you want to alienate new players, impose that rule on them. Makes them leave PlaneShift rather fast.
8. Leave the official guarding to the government (and GMs).
GMs, Developers, etc. are the only people officially allowed to role-play legitimate government officials. If your character strives to protect/serve the citizens of Yliakum, do it under your own banner not the government’s.
Amen to that. Print it out, nail it to Kada Els tavern. If I had a circle for every time, some "roleplayer" tried to start roleplaying on me, that I should sheathe my weapons, because the guard said so and then has no clue how to deal with my answer, I would not have to mine platinum any more. Can we have forced PvP here? Just to make the outcome of that kind of roleplay realistic? I bet, that would make this rule surplus fast.
9. Role-plays should be “PG” rated.
PlaneShift is intended for a broad age range of players. Keep this in mind when creating RPs.
So, we can undo now with the marriage related mechanics? Fine with me. I always fear accidently sending a proprosal, when viewing someone else's character info. And yes: Marriage is not PG rated. In every MMORPG it's just a lame excuse or a license for having cybersex in one or the other ways. Here's a hint for all you "roleplayers": In medivial times, marriage was not about love and affection. It was about support. Also you typically did not marry, instead you generally were married. So until I see a couple that actually plays it's bond as something imposed on them instead of some cheesy Romeo and Juliet romance, I will not even consider marriage as an roleplay element, but see it as what it generally is: A poor excuse to have an online lovelive (but I digress here).
10. A character’s name is not known until it is heard IC.
Just as there are no floating nametags over our heads in real life, there are no floating tags in PlaneShift from an in-character perspective. In game nametags exist only for player convenience.
Curiously, I wear a nametag on my chest, stating name, profession and brasize (the later of course being a bit odd for a male character, but I have my needs). Here's a hint for you roleplayers: Roleplaying is about *gasp* playing a role. Unless your role is that of an introduction fetishist, who has dozens of introductions macroed, it is just an inconvinience.
Older players might remember the desaster, when this rule was enforced via gamemechanics and no names where shown. Experience tells us, that this does not work. Normal people just hit "fast forward" on repetitive tasks and there is really nothing wrong with mutually agreeing upon, that something just happened, even if it didn't (like for example, that your character occasionally visits the loo, even if there is none to be found anywhere).
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Dude, you completely missed it. You should use game mechanics, but if you can't, players have to agree. The rest was just... pure babbling.
PS: What you like doing is very fine and dandy, but it's your thing, not everyone elses. Bad luck if things aren't done your way, they certainly won't be done mine either.
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I can't help but somehow I have the feeling that there are games which suit your needs better than PS.
The question is did you ridicule the "suggestions" or maybe rather yourself?
Which are guidelines you would agree upon?
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I read that all, and at first I thought you had some good points, though presented mildly obnoxiously. Then you became really, really obnoxious and sarcastic and I stopped caring about your thoughts and opinions :)
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Really? I gave up on him pretty easy:
I have had it with "roleplayers" (and even GMs), bullying me into "correct" (from their point of view) gameplay.
GM's actually set the standard of what is correct. They are Game Moderators and their work is exactly to do that: moderate you. Either you agree, or pay the consequences. That's plain obvious. Still, that makes you sound like someone who doesn't want to give a crap about anyone else's opinion of what having fun is (which is pretty anti-social) and that's hardly a trait one should possess when playing a role play game.
Good one. Print that out, nail it to Kada-Els door and preferably to the forehead of it's regular patrons. Either they violate this rule or they lack any social life.
That's simply a childish personal attack.
You seem to resemble the type of person I'd like to see away from PS. If the covenant would guarantee that, I'd be pretty glad already.
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The community sets the standard, the GMs enforce it.
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EDIT: To make it more understandable, I meant to say the Game Moderators are the ones who say what is right and what is wrong, therefore deciding what the standard behaviour should be.
"The Community" can't be impersonated by three, four or twenty people. It usually is better represented through repetitive critique towards decisions already made. My thought process erases the community as an entity capable of setting standards because they must be guided by GM's ir order to do so and that is why we need a covenant.
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That's not entirely true either. The GMs do not set policy. They're given a set of rules by the higher ups in the development team, and they're told to "Go forth and make sure people abide by this standard."
The GMs have flexibility when it comes to interpreting and applying the rules, but they don't get to write the rules.
Anyone is free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I'm wrong.
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That's not entirely true either. The GMs do not set policy. They're given a set of rules by the higher ups in the development team, and they're told to "Go forth and make sure people abide by this standard."
The GMs have flexibility when it comes to interpreting and applying the rules, but they don't get to write the rules.
Anyone is free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I'm wrong.
the gm team IS allowed to set some rules but then the dev team has a right to overrule the new rules and they also need to be approved by atleast kerol if not talad as well.
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Sorry. It was a slight detail then, the "higher ups" set the standards then. PS Team, to me is one lump of mass, be they GM's, developers, or whatever.
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Sorry. It was a slight detail then, the "higher ups" set the standards then. PS Team, to me is one lump of mass, be they GM's, developers, or whatever.
Ah, you have to distinguish. :)
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please post the final version you want to vote on here and send me a pm alerting me that it is time to make the poll.
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Marqsaynt's Version (Short)
In order to completely experience PlaneShift, the player should agree with the following covenant:
1. This is a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Play Game (MMORPG).
You and your character are not the same person. Live as the character you create, enjoy as the civilized person you are.
Example: In Character (IC) you may want to overthrow Yliakum's government, but out of character (OOC) you should just want to have fun, like the rest of us.
2. Respect PlaneShift's unique game world.
Always keep your character’s chat, action, and history consistent with the PS universe.
Note: Make sure you know what exists in PlaneShift before making anything up. Self phones, vampires, hobbits, etc. do not belong in this game.
3. Respect other Players.
The fun of an MMORPG is interacting with other people. Be sure to treat other players with respect.
Note: Remember that a player should always have a chance to react to another player’s action, so everyone has a role in this play. Ideally, all players involved should agree with the outcome or on a fair method of deciding the result, using the game mechanics everytime possible.
4. Be consistent.
Stay true to your character, that is the only way he or she will become what you desire.
Note: This is a game where players often challenge each other and your character will end up being a result of other people's actions. If you want to follow a specific path with your hero, you are the one that has to focus on it. You can't become a hero here just because you wish, first you must earn it.
5. When in doubt ask a Game Master (GM).
They volunteer for the love of the game and are there to help.
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Marqsaynt's Version (Long)
In order to completely experience PlaneShift, the player should agree with the following covenant:
Role-Play Basics
1. This is a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Play Game (MMORPG).
You and your character are not the same person. Live as the character you create, enjoy as the civilized person you are.
Example: In Character (IC) you may want to overthrow Yliakum's government, but out of character (OOC) you should just want to have fun, like the rest of us.
2. Respect PlaneShift's unique game world.
Always keep your character’s chat, action, and history consistent with the PS universe.
Note: Make sure you know what exists in PlaneShift before making anything up. Self phones, vampires, hobbits, etc. do not belong in this game.
3. Respect other Players.
The fun of an MMORPG is interacting with other people. Be sure to treat other players with respect.
Note: Remember that a player should always have a chance to react to another player’s action, so everyone has a role in this play. Ideally, all players involved should agree with the outcome or on a fair method of deciding the result, using the game mechanics everytime possible.
4. Be consistent.
Stay true to your character, that is the only way he or she will become what you desire.
Note: This is a game where players often challenge each other and your character will end up being a result of other people's actions. If you want to follow a specific path with your hero, you are the one that has to focus on it. You can't become a hero here just because you wish, first you must earn it.
5. When in doubt ask a Game Master (GM).
They volunteer for the love of the game and are there to help.
Role-Play Principles
6. All out of character (OOC) chat must be enclosed within a type of brackets.
This reduces confusion and shows respect for the other players role-playing (RPing) around you.
Examples: [OOC comment], (OOC comment), {OOC comment}
7. No 1337 speak, IM abbreviations, or languages other than English in the main chat tab.
However, feel free to create a dialect or interesting speech pattern for your character.
8. Leave the official guarding to the government (and GMs).
GMs, Developers, etc. are the only people officially allowed to role-play legitimate government officials. If your character strives to protect/serve the citizens of Yliakum, do it under your own banner not the government’s.
9. Role-plays should be “PG” rated.
PlaneShift is intended for a broad age range of players. Keep this in mind when creating RPs.
10. A character’s name is not known until it is heard IC.
Just as there are no floating nametags over our heads in real life, there are no floating tags in PlaneShift from an in-character perspective. In game nametags exist only for player convenience.
Role-Play Ideals
11. Give your character a description.
Character descriptions are only for what another person's character would see. Books are for autobiographies, character descriptions are not.
12. Stick with what is known about the PS world. (AKA: Know the settings)
A person must know the rules before they bend/break/add to them. All back-stories and character abilities should still be firmly aligned with what is known about the settings.
Note: PS is still a game heavily in development and therefore apt to change/grow/add to the in-game universe and lore.
13. Using /me or /my to indicate what your character is thinking is poor form.
Your thoughts are your own in RL. Your character’s thoughts are their own in PS.
14. In general, do not exceed your character’s race traits.
This includes extremes like attempting to RP a 7-foot tall dwarf or a Kran made entirely of vanilla ice cream, to less obvious faux pas like playing a character much older than any other of his species to ever walk the realm.
15. Don’t try to grab the spotlight; you’ll burn yourself.
An excellent way to turn-off fellow players to your role-play is to constantly insist on being the most tragic, loud, dramatic character in the room. Not only is it obnoxious, it leaves zero room for anyone else to talk to you about their own character’s events or story.
16. Every great role-played strength should have an equally great weakness.
No weakness means zero conflict. It also ensures more thoughtful RPers will largely avoid you since it is no fun playing a game with someone that can never lose.
17. Ideally, role-play and in-game stats should coincide.
While not always possible, if you are role-playing a person that knows magic or is quick with a sword, it is probably a good idea to invest a little time training these skills using the game mechanics. Likewise, if you were RPing a farmer it would make little sense to train stats that make him the equivalent of a warrior.
18a. Do not take things said in character personally.
Unless someone is specifically harassing you (which should be reported to a GM) assume there is a nice person behind the character simply trying to liven up the PS universe. Just because their character is a thief, gruff, conceited, etc. does not mean the person playing them is the same way or intended any insult against you (the player).
18b. Do not use “being in character” as an excuse to be rude.
Remember, there are real people with real feelings behind every character. While a myriad of IC personalities makes role-playing interesting, using your character as a convenient excuse to treat people poorly is not acceptable. Always be aware of the line between being IC and being just plain rude.
19. In general, role-play should be done in the Main tab.
Using Tells, Group, and Guild tabs to role-play means other players have no idea what your character is doing. Don’t deprive others of witnessing and perhaps participating in your role-play.
20. Bald exposition is lazy role-play.
Don’t cheat yourself with exposition you don’t need. It is unrealistic and removes a lot of the mystery from your character.
21. Your character only has as much power as the PS community accepts.
Just because you say you are a “powerful” mage/warrior/etc. does not mean others will treat you like one. A reputation is something that must be earned.
22. Have fun.
Never forget it’s just a game.
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Sangwa's Version
In order to completely experience PlaneShift, the player should read the following lines and agree with them:
- First, The Reality Check - This is a Role Play Game. In this game you (the civilized person behind the screen) are supposed to live as the Character you create (the 3D model you drive around) in a Fantasy Setting. You and the character are not the same person and might have different goals; In Character (IC) you might want to overthrow Yliakum's government, but Out Of your Character (OOC) you should just want to have fun, like the rest of us.
- Respect The Setting - The Setting is the Fantasy environment that the PlaneShift Team so kindly created for you; it has its unique History, Geology and its own form of Magic. In order for players to have equal chances at being entertained, every player must respect how this environment works. Players are therefore required to keep consistent with the Setting, which means that their character's chat, actions and history must not stray away from what is possible in PlaneShift (which you'll learn by reading the guide, web site information and through game experience. When in doubt you should ask a Game Master.)
Examples: You're respecting the settings if your character is a ynnwn who came from a Kran village in the north to pursue the path of the merchant. You'd be disrespecting the setting, however, if you stated that your ynnwn also had wings (in this setting Ynnwns don't have wings) or the power to read minds (without actually possessing any Glyph or special training.)
- Respect The Player - Other Players are your major source of entertainment, so be sure to respect them. During the game there will be situations where interaction can not be controlled by the Game Mechanics and that is when players are required to use their imagination and social skills. At all times all players concerned should agree with either the outcome or with a fair way to decide the outcome of a role played action that can not take place through the game's mechanics.
Examples: "Zalzor kills Dracor"; by typing "/me kills Dracor" I'm telling the other players I've killed that character, but the target player might not agree to it and since there are several ways to kill a character using game mechanics, one of those should be picked (we could either duel if it was a fight, or decide the outcome through a dice roll [with conditions agreed by both] if it was just a killing stab.)
"Zalzor throws a dagger at Cyl": by typing "/me throws a dagger at Cyl" I'm telling the other players I'm doing an action not currently covered by the game's mechanics. In case we disagree with the outcome, we could settle it by a dice throw with agreed conditions.
- Avoid Chat Issues - You'll notice there are different tabs at PlaneShift's chat box. At the Main Tab you're always supposed to act as your character (IC), while the other tabs have uses explained in the PlaneShift Guide. We ask you to be careful with what you type at the Main Tab, as it will affect everyone's game experience. Be sure to use [], (), or other types of text tagging when you want to tell the other players (OOC) something, but don't abuse it. Try and keep your text as clean and correct as possible, so people can understand each other. Be on the lookout for details such as the fact that other characters can't read your thoughts.
Examples: "Joseph says: say, u hav a q300 sword to sell?" This player is not typing good english and uses terms that an inhabitant of Yliakum wouldn't comprehend ("q300"). "Robert says: Say, do you have a finest quality sword to sell?" This player wanted to know the same thing the previous did, but he asked in a different, cool way.
A character description that reads "Josh was once a proud boy..." makes no sense since other characters can't tell your character's life story just by looking.
Typing "/me thinks he's hot." is a useless Main Chat entry since no character can make use of it (characters can't read thoughts.)
Saying "Hello miss Chelza" when your character never heard the name "Chelza" before makes no sense either.
- Remember, Consistency Is The Word - If you're true to your character you'll be sure to get a good adventurer in your hands which will show you plenty of good times. What your character becomes depends on what you make of it, so if you sacrifice your own character's personality for your short term enjoyment (for example by blindly seeking rewards), you might come to miss on a whole lot.
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Those are the ones I have. I've changed Marqsaynt's versions slightly (changed the basics yet again a bit), added some introduction lines or whatever and also changed my first one a bit, to make it sound more like a covenant. Well, just changed the titles, actually. These are the ones I think we should vote on.
And by the way, thanks for turning the thread towards the right way once again.
Also, Marqsaynt, do you agree with the versions I've posted for you?
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I feel an obligation, to post my final version as well:
Rule #1:
This is an MMORPG. It is meant to entertain you. So please, have fun.
Anything else will lead to nothing more, then the boyscouts of Hydlaa policing other people around, spoiling their game play as well as their own. I can think of nothing more disruptive, then when one self proclaimed "roleplayer" drops out of character to explain me, that he thinks, I am not in character and should therefore put everything in bracket, hence forcing me out of character, explaining to him, that he is as annyoing as wrong.
Unfortunately, that kind of behaviour is the common one. You can vote on your covenant here. Your pact will be with a crowd, that is not representative for the games populance (currently, there are 150 people online, lets see, if we get more then 75 votes) and hence will be largely ignored, until enforced. In which case, we will see, that "covenant" is just a new and friendly label for an unfriendly idea and get a further drop in online population.
To make this perfectly clear for the roleplayers:
You can not force anyone to do anything. You just can get rid of people by either getting them banned or annoy them to a point, where they leave themselves. Either way, you loose. If I was a dev, I'd really think twice, if I'd want to invest my time in a project, that just doesn't "take off", because my current community does it's best to bully fresh blood around.
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I can think of nothing more disruptive, then when one self proclaimed "roleplayer" drops out of character to explain me, that he thinks, I am not in character and should therefore put everything in bracket, hence forcing me out of character, explaining to him, that he is as annyoing as wrong.
If that's the most disruptive thing you can think of, then maybe you need to think a little longer. If someone drops out of character to correct someone else's bad behaviour, the disruption has already happened by way of the bad behaviour.
Unfortunately, that kind of behaviour is the common one. You can vote on your covenant here. Your pact will be with a crowd, that is not representative for the games populance (currently, there are 150 people online, lets see, if we get more then 75 votes) and hence will be largely ignored, until enforced. In which case, we will see, that "covenant" is just a new and friendly label for an unfriendly idea and get a further drop in online population.
If people who don't roleplay leave, then our numbers will actually go up. The people who don't roleplay don't really add much to the game IMO. And we'll attract more people, since PlaneShift will become more attractive to people looking for a roleplay game.
To make this perfectly clear for the roleplayers:
Everyone who plays PlaneShift should be a roleplayer.
You can not force anyone to do anything. You just can get rid of people by either getting them banned or annoy them to a point, where they leave themselves. Either way, you loose. If I was a dev, I'd really think twice, if I'd want to invest my time in a project, that just doesn't "take off", because my current community does it's best to bully fresh blood around.
When bullying happens, is it the roleplayers who are doing it? Or is it the power levellers? I agree that fresh blood is important, but if you want to have a strong roleplay community, you want newcomers to add to the community, not hurt it.
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Irgendwer,
I am not sure you really got the idea. This Covenant was for providing a guideline, some agreement on the outlines of roleplaying.
PlaneShift still is some game to be welcoming roleplayers the same way as any other type of players, be it mute levellers or ooc-talking testers. Nothing is strictly enforced or mandatory.
However, if you are as itched by the presence of roleplayers as you appear to me, reconsider your tolerance, and maybe switch to another game, in case you cant stand them. After all I wouldnt join a pure FPS and then whine about people disliking any strategy element.
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/me adds one item.
Use Common Sense.
Definition: Common sense (or, when used attributively as an adjective, commonsense, common-sense, or commonsensical), based on a strict construction of the term, consists of what people in common would agree on: that which they "sense" (in common) as their common natural understanding.
In essence, if those around you are going by strict RP rules, try to do the same. If it is more casual RP with some [ooc talk], accept it. If people are just playing the game and leveling up in a group, do not try to come in and force some roleplaying. Ask, suggest, and be polite. Do not rant and rave because people are not playing how YOU think they should. Do not try to interrupt rudely into any type of gameplay with another type of gameplay, be it textplayers to powerlevelers, even if you have to ignore most of the RP Covenant guidelines.
If you can't handle that, just walk away and find another group to play with. Do not say anything rude on parting, and be polite if you are asked the reasons why you parted the group. If you do wish people to play more like you, rudeness and hostility will NEVER get your way.
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I'm not sure. When you go OOC, you can never really know who you might be affecting negatively.
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Dear Zansibar, thanks for proving my point by demonstrating, that you see this "covenant" as little more as a tool to drive people away. Your assumption, that we will have more players, if we drive the "non roleplayers" away is funny at best and demonstrates your lack of understanding, how the internet and marketing in general works.
If you have a service to offer, people don't just come running to you, because you are there. Especially, they will not magically sense, that your service is the right thing for them. Since PlaneShift doesn't advertise (at least not like Blizzard does with WoW), this game largely depends on worth of mouth advertisement. Here's the deal: Unsatisfied customers are in general about ten times more vocal then happy customers and will bad mouth your product on all channels available to them. This will keep people from even giving it a try.
Furthermore, every player you drive away is a player, that will never set a link to the planeshift homepage. Links and positive reviews are what drives visitors from one website to another (lets visitors discover new websites).
Stop even thinking, that in their heart, everyone is a hardcore roleplayer, that just needs enough lecturing on the proper use of brackets and the art of introduction to come out. Some people either can't or don't want to do this. They might have other talents though, which can greatly add to the game. Telling them in their face, that they can either subscribe to whatever doesn't make sense to them or get lost is most certainly not only ignorant, but also contra productive. My observation is (from other MMORPG), that you get about one able programmer or artist per thousand players. Now have a look at the bugtracker or the missing artwork alone and question yourself, how many issues could have been fixed, if person X hadn't been lost early due to some "roleplayers" scaring him/her away.
So to put it very short: Your assumption, that "weeding" out the current playerbase will provide a fertile grounds for growth does not only lack any basis, it is plain wrong. You don't have to take my word for it, just ask about anyone who has the least understanding about internet marketing.
And for the silly claim, which I can not hear any more, that "roleplaying" would advance this game in any way: Roleplaying does not do squat in this respect, because it is (by definition!) interacting with other people, not interacting with the game mechanics. In fact, "roleplayers" often actually try to avoid using the game mechanics. The feedback, the devs get from hourlang beermug waiving "roleplay" sessions in the tavern is practically zero, zip, null, nil, void or simply plain non existent. You add to the game, if you go out there and find creative ways to crash things (and report them), when you discover imbalances (and provide a mathscript), come up with phrases, that should trigger the NPC, maybe even a quest proposal. However, none if this is "roleplay". Strangly though, it is exactly what you do if you powerlevel (please note: RP and PL are not mutually exclusive).
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Sangwa,
I like your post containing both versions, yours and Marqs. Yours pointing out well the difference between player and character (which I consider pretty important), Marq's splitted more to display details.
Irgendwer,
considering your latest post... you really didnt get it, right? Why dont you create a separate thread for discussing your view on what should PlaneShift be like, and leave this one up for discussing the guidelines for roleplayers on how to roleplay?
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You seem to be the one who doesn't get it. This thread isn't about how RPers should RP... this is about what the community thinks RP should be.
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Irgendwer,
I am not sure you really got the idea. This Covenant was for providing a guideline, some agreement on the outlines of roleplaying.
PlaneShift still is some game to be welcoming roleplayers the same way as any other type of players, be it mute levellers or ooc-talking testers. Nothing is strictly enforced or mandatory.
However, if you are as itched by the presence of roleplayers as you appear to me, reconsider your tolerance, and maybe switch to another game, in case you cant stand them. After all I wouldnt join a pure FPS and then whine about people disliking any strategy element.
Yes Raekh, I am getting the point very clearly. This covenant is one of those good ideas going terribly bad. If you make a law, that you are not going to enforce, you can pretty much skip the hassle of doing it in the first place. People stick to rules as long as playing by them is less inconvinient as having to deal with the consequences. So even if you get your little pact, it will not serve any purpose, until declared mandatory, which will be pretty much the next step, once we find out, that people don't volunterly stick to it.
In the meantime we will have a lot of "boyscout roleplayers", who think that just because there is a "covenant", it is also the law and will threaten new players with reporting them to the game masters, which would result in a ban. Don't even argue with me about this point, it does happen.
I have no special dislike for "roleplay". In fact, I even enjoy it. What I don't enjoy however is when a couple of dimwits runs around and tries to "educate" everybody on what they think "the rules" are. Rules, which sometimes are as silly and pointless and contraproductive (see my stink bomb post) as having to walk with your pinky in your ear on saturday, when you wear yellow slippers. What I furthermore dislike is the idiocy of advicing people to go and play somewhere else.
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Dear Zansibar, thanks for proving my point by demonstrating, that you see this "covenant" as little more as a tool to drive people away.
That's like saying that the anti-bot rules are bad because they drive people away. Mainly, cheaters who want to use bots.
Your assumption, that we will have more players, if we drive the "non roleplayers" away is funny at best and demonstrates your lack of understanding, how the internet and marketing in general works.
Your posts demonstrate your lack of understanding of what PlaneShift is about.
Since PlaneShift doesn't advertise (at least not like Blizzard does with WoW), this game largely depends on worth of mouth advertisement.
Word of mouth, not "worth" of mouth. And PlaneShift does a pretty good job getting noticed, because it's unique.
Here's the deal: Unsatisfied customers are in general about ten times more vocal then happy customers and ill bad mouth your product on all channels available to them.
LOL
That caused me to laugh so hard that my chest is actually in pain. People say bad things about PlaneShift all the time and it doesn't stop people from playing. In fact I think it just attracts more attention to the game. Then people come here and discover there's a roleplay community, and they join.
Stop even thinking, that in their heart, everyone is a hardcore roleplayer
I don't think that. PlaneShift isn't for everyone. If PlaneShift changed to be for everyone, it would suck.
Now have a look at the bugtracker or the missing artwork alone and question yourself, how many issues could have been fixed, if person X hadn't been lost early due to some "roleplayers" scaring him/her away.
Dude. The developers are among the biggest roleplayers in the community.
Roleplaying does not do squat in this respect, because it is (by definition!) interacting with other people, not interacting with the game mechanics.
And social interaction is why people fall in love with PlaneShift. :)
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If you make a law, that you are not going to enforce, you can pretty much skip the hassle of doing it in the first place.
This much has truth. I think that the people who agree with the covenant are already following it.
People stick to rules as long as playing by them is less inconvinient as having to deal with the consequences.
"Inconvenient". And no, some people follow rules because they believe the rules are good.
So even if you get your little pact, it will not serve any purpose, until declared mandatory, which will be pretty much the next step, once we find out, that people don't volunterly stick to it.
Volunteerism is the reason PlaneShift exists. :)
What I don't enjoy however is when a couple of dimwits runs around and tries to "educate" everybody on what they think "the rules" are.
Yeah, don't you just hate that?
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Marqsaynt's Version (Short) ...
Marqsaynt's Version (Long) ...
Sangwa's Version ...
My problem with those (not every problem apply to every version):
- Not clearly organised. I don't see what separate basics/principles/ideals, and why an entry is put in one category instead of another.
- Fail to include many of the suggestions read through this thread.
- Address some basic concepts of RP, but don't propose ways to apply RP, specially on the PS specific issues.
- Consider that people ignore what RP is, with some patronising entries.
- Too long entries. Specially for a pool format.
I'm not sure I was clear here. So here is what I would expect at this point: I took the time to aggregate all suggestions a few page earlier; I haven't seen any new suggestion since (correct me if missed one). I'd expect each suggestion to be taken, rewritten (if need be) to make it as short and clear as possible, then put to the poll. Then, only after the vote, spend time on writing detailed paragraphs if you really need to.
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I believe I second that Khoridor. This has gotten into details that do not need to be part of the Covenant, without even addressing the core issues... namely, WHAT IS RP. I am also getting really tired of reading the same PL vs RP crap over and over again. This Covenant is NOT about sticking it to those darn PLers who are always showing up at Kada El's... wait... they avoid that place like the plague... um... must be those PLers that hang out at the Plat mine... that you avoid like the plauge... wait... I missed something again...
Will someone please piece together something SIMPLE that goes to the basic definition of RP. I really couldn't care less about strengths vs weaknesses or any of the other stuff mentioned. Also, much to the obvious frustration of most here, I think that as long as the main tab is kept to discussing only character interaction or ps mechanics we are doing as well as can be expected from the range of players (young, old, english speakers, not-so-good english speakers, etc). Brackets may be desired, but I am not going to crucify someone for asking how they get training and omitting brackets. I think UtM's suggestion of common sense could go a long way... if only that were common on the internet.
[EDIT] #XX. If you do not want your RP interrupted start a /group and keep your conversations private. Do NOT assume things said in main will not be overheard and commented on.
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The covenant is not a guide. it's not meant for you to read and learn how to role play. We have plenty of guides already, check those if you want to learn how to deal with rp problems, specific or not. The covenant exists merely to make people aware that this is a roleplay game and that you are actually supposed to roleplay and do it with respect. Afterwards people might choose to check the roleplay guides, in case they are new, or simply roleplay like they've been doing for years now.
With this in mind, and considering it is common sense to have a community that fully knows and agrees with the game concept, what do you think of the propositions I've posted?
I agree that the long version isn't very well divided and that it is also a bit restricting and, well, long. My own version is a bit long too, and not objective, true. But Marqsaynt's short version seems pretty solid and able to completely cover the Covenant role.
And Under The Moon, the purpose of an MMORPG is not to please every type of player and to allow for every type of gameplay. If that's what people are seeking they should seek other MMOGs, like hack n' slashes. We can't ever please everyone, but we can do our best to make sense. And it makes sense that everybody has to roleplay in a Role Playing Game.
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Please choose the one or combination you wish me to poll and repost it. The Pler vs. Rper argument bores me, it's been YEARS of the same tiring crap. . .
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I can do it again, but they'll drown it in drama sooner or later. I say we should just go with Marqsaynt's short version. Khoridor, could you please comment on Marqsaynt's short version alone and tell me what you think is missing? Anyone else willing do the same.
as short and clear as possible
I believe it has what you're asking. Though you can't expect it to be a guide.
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Marqsaynt's Version (Short)
1. This is a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Play Game (MMORPG). ...
2. Respect PlaneShift's unique game world. ...
3. Respect other Players. ...
4. Be consistent. ...
5. When in doubt ask a Game Master (GM). ...
My comment on that version is mainly that it contains nothing wrong, but nothing actually useful either. These guidelines are too general, and all players probably believe that they are already following them.
Sure, obvious things have to be written again in such a covenant, as well as the already enforced rules lectured to players in the introduction of the game, but if it was to be only that, no solution would be proposed to the occasional disagreement.
I must say I expected more player participation in the construction. Two of you came with redacted proposals, a few players poured in ideas, and there is not much response to it (apart from some sterile pedantic flooding). Still, there is enough input and material to go somewhere, and people have given examples of what can damage their game, which is, IMO, the important source.
We have to remember that the point of this is to create a poll. Therefore, there is no need yet to debate if one agrees with such or such point. There may be a need to debate over a point to clarify it, rephrase it, expand it... The redaction requires to include entries regardless of personal opinions; it's not about proposing one's ideas to be agreed with, but anyone's idea to be put to the vote. I also believe the redaction requires native English speakers, and much preferably some that are used to interaction with foreigners. It's just, after all, the ingrate task of formating others' input.
Some examples: Let's say we start with Marqsaynt's long version, which has more content.
#6 is good, for me (regardless of the fact that I agree with it or not), because it's clear and self-sufficient. The ideal entry doesn't even need to be followed by an example.
#8, on the other hand, is not clear without the underneath explanation; that would be a source of endless semantic debate instead of role debate. There must be a rephrasing that solves the issue. I'd say "Don't pretend to be an official", but I'm not satisfied with that either.
#11 contains 2 different entries, "Give your character a description", and "Books are for autobiographies"; one I would vote no, the other yes. In fact, with the current phrasing, I'd vote no for both, because books are not only for biographies. Ok, I got the actual meaning because I read the thread, but it should be clear even in the subtext.
#20 is the most cryptic of all. I only got it with an example earlier in the thread, which has been dropped since.
#2 and #12 are redundant; and not wrong, but too general to make something out of it. The text of #12, "All back-stories and character abilities should still be firmly aligned with what is known about the settings", conveys the idea better IMO.
Ok, I won't comment on all entries. I have to go anyway.
I also suggest that the general format be changed to show a simple list first, then the detail/examples text. I'll admit that I read all the first time, and stuck to the bold titles on subsequent reads. It also suits better the poll format, allows to relate entries to each other, and spot redundancies. Some ideas are close enough to be integrated into one entry only. Finally, if ideas are omitted, someone may very well come back and ask to add them; that's one more reason to use the list format. What I am personally working on, when I have time, is to grab some of those forgotten ideas and try to fuse them into something simple and clear; I chose those I feel more concerned with, for now, such as avoiding the use of figures in IC dialogs. As another example, I often read about PvP as a source of conflict of interpretation IG, but see nothing about it in the proposal; this is representative of what I called PS specifics.
I would also like to see considerations about newbies and oldbies disappear, both in game and in the current thread. How long one has played PS doesn't tell anything about one's will and abilities to follow the guidelines, to know the setting, to be entertaining, etc. For example, in game, do not consider someone is lost, or in need of technical help, until the player explicitly tells so (well, that does need some rephrasing as well). In the covenant, if entries are to aim at new players, each one should explicitly mention that objective. For example, "As a new player, you have read and agreed to the etiquette, blah blah". But to me, this covenant goes one step further: we know how to interact, and we want to interact better.
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And Under The Moon, the purpose of an MMORPG is not to please every type of player and to allow for every type of gameplay. If that's what people are seeking they should seek other MMOGs, like hack n' slashes. We can't ever please everyone, but we can do our best to make sense. And it makes sense that everybody has to roleplay in a Role Playing Game.
/me gives Sangwa the Bi-Weekly Missing the Point Completely award.
The point was not to make a game for everyone to play. It was "Don't be an ass to people who don't play like you."
Despite the umpteen pages of debates, any future voting on "guidelines only", and posting of such guidelines, people are still pretty much going to play how they want to, ignoring the guidelines they don't agree with, and citing the ones they do. And yes, that means you will still have all kinds of players trying all types of ways to play the game. Textplayers, serious roleplayers, casual roleplayers, very casual roleplayers, socialites, explorers, levelers, grinders, and countless combinations and shades of gray of the above. You will still meet them, and they will still not be playing by the right rules.
It will happen. Don't be a jerk when it does.
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Fww, this is what I get for not looking at this thread for a while. All right, let’s dive in…
First off, Sangwa I like the reworking of #4, it’s good and concise and sums things up so nicely I don’t think we even need the note attached. Also, the opening line added to the various versions seems a bit presumptuous to me and I have a feeling it may turn a few people off to the covenant. Since it is not actually an RP statute I think I’d trim that out as well. Lastly I feel the same way you do about using the mechanics as much as possible but can think of a good amount of well-respected players that do not necessarily agree. It’s a minor point and since we are aiming to represent the vast majority of PS role-players I don’t think we should necessarily keep it, especially if it has the potential to create an unnecessary rift.
Moving on to the next issue, the covenant in not being created to define role-play. The role-play in PS has so many facets and such a surprising variety of valid types that it’d be impossible to come up with one definition that would capture this and satisfy everyone. Instead, these ideas are intended to help bridge the gap between all role-players by reducing the possibility of conflict by putting everyone on the same page. Rest assured, the goal is not to create some RP Gestapo but simply remove some of the landmines inherent with interacting with a variety of role-players.
On a related note, I like UtM’s addition of using common sense. There are always exceptions to every rule and when people are no longer allowed to exercise common sense, they become slaves to the rules. The idea of catching more bees with honey than vinegar is also an important point and one that I feel is conveniently forgotten at times. Any revised version I feel should include some version of UtM’s addition(s).
Khoridor, thanks for pointing out some of the redundancies, I knew some likely existed but I just really didn’t feel like going through and finding them myself. :P I’m going to try and streamline things and hopefully come up with a real quality final version. On your note about the structure, I personally like the way the covenant is laid out and feel that when things have been polished and trimmed a little it will work nicely. Hopefully you’ll agree once you see the “final” product.
I should have a new version ready to be posted very soon so, hang in there friends and please keep those ideas coming!
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Whilst I understand the reasoning behind some of the 'rules' I don't agree they are necessarily realistic roleplay.
Let's say for example I am playing a character who has grown up and lived in Hydlaa for over 50 years, frequenting the one and only Tavern. I see other players who have also frequented the Tavern for long periods but don't necessarily interact. In the real world it is highly likely that I would still know your names, attitudes and probably any misdemeanours through general conversation within the tavern, possibly even from the bar staff. However here due to the slowness of texting, different log in times etc. (and lack of general conversation, rumour, gossip) there is a high probability that I will never hear your name ICly or know anything about you. Personally I find this incredibly unrealistic.
In medieval times certainly you would have known almost everyone in your village or locality, their occupations, families and reputations. This would include regular travellers through your area and knowledge of people of reputation in surrounding areas and major towns. Pertinent information in your description (but keep it short!) related to your own RP, in my view, aids roleplay as long as it is reasonably known. Lack of information slows the RP to a crawl which I've witnessed so often (the 20 questions game!). A good RPer playing with you will know whether his player should know such information.
The question I raise against the 'rules' is whether every player is meant to be full of mystery as indicated by item 20. Is this really a game only for clandestine type players? This leads to questioning of 'rules' 10 and 11. If you are a character of reasonable age or reputation should you really be upset if I know your name? If you are wearing a cloak (yawn!) will I really not recognise your voice or general demeanour (and yes, I have witnessed people I've known ICly hiding behind a cloak while shouting their heads off, brandishing their usual weapons etc. and still believing they shouldn't be recognised)? In my view rules 10 and 11 need to be considered more deeply than discussed so far here, after all true RP isn't just another version of 20 questions.
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What currently waters down the roleplay quality is that more than half of the people in-game are not able to roleplay in a competent way, most because they haven't even been introduced to basics (i.e. they don't even know what is supposed to happen in game besides farming/grinding, etc), others because they're smart but need attention (i.e. they want to be different and to do things their own, "special" way.)
So Khoridor, I can't agree with you on the use of the Covenant. I don't think we should have what you call "useful information" (i.e. some sort of "rules" that you follow so you don't annoy people, such as "don't go after the spotlight" and even "don't use your description for background story.") The only thing we want from the covenant is that people know they are expected to roleplay and respect the setting and the players.
I think we shouldn't even make the Covenant numbered. I shiver at the thought of listening to players crying out you're not following rule number 22, or 7, or whatever. It's just a document that clearly states our standards.
The thing here is trying to get people to understand that they shouldn't use their description for the background story because that is a clear chat issue. Or that the player shouldn't consider his character to have psychic powers because he has no actual way of possessing it. Like Under the Moon requested (and like I tried to illustrate in the reality check) we need "Common Sense": This is a roleplay game, so act accordingly (in other words, do not disrupt roleplay and be consistent.)
I'm expecting that when this Covenant is applied, the Community will have an actual orientation (hopefully the covenant is presented to people when they first create a character or something), since it will understand what is expected of it. And the moderators should also guide people (not threat them) towards roleplaying the right way, which would help a whole big deal.
Ceraline, Under the Moon, do you think Marqsaynt's short version can point towards the right direction? Think we should include yet another item, the Common Sense one? I am hoping it is non-restrictive and clears all the basics: Have fun, roleplay, respect game, respect players, use game mechanics, watch out for consistency and chat issues.
I'm thinking we should go from that one and add anything, if it is missing.
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I also lean toward the more general and smaller list.
Some simple principles can go a long way toward establishing a tone.
I agree also that numbering them may create more ooc havok than rp havok.
I really want you folks to settle on something all roleplayers are happy with.
For those of you who don't roleplay, or don't make rping a priority for yourself, let the roleplayers finish out their debate here uninterrupted please; I have something in mind for your play style too . . .
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I have something in mind for your play style too . . .
Banhammer?
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Some annotations:
- As Sangwa noted, more then half of the current population of the server either can't or won't roleplay. To my understanding, the word "covenant" means a pact in the sense of a binding contract. Such things can really not be established, if the majority of the relevant people just won't agree to it. However, if (as Xillix noted) the point is merely to establish (non binding) quality standards AND these are established with a guarentee, that roleplayers cannot use them to bully around non roleplayers, like it is the norm now, I am one happy camper.
- The reason, why people put their biography in their character description is because of the goofed up custom character generation. It not only allows people to easily create characters, that are unplayably low on stamina/health (though thats a topic for another thread), but activly teaches them, that the character description indeed is the place to jot down the story of your life.
- If you want to teach new players what quality roleplay looks like, give them a book of "roleplay hints" as the final quest reward in the tutorial. However, please let the quest char also state, that these are encouraged, not binding and that everyone trying to lecture, patronize or worse threatens to report non conformant behaviour to a GM is in fact a case for a /report him/her/kraself. People generally hate RTFM. If you give them a mobile copy instead of trying to force it down their throat upfront, then there is a good chance, that they will read up later, when they find time for it (e.g. while resting because of exhaustion).
- If you really want to do something about furthering roleplaying, consider rewarding it in terms of exp (sorry to derail here). Instead of trying to find ways to reglement the usage of mainchat, consider implementing the game mechanic of a public, subscribeable group. Anyone can start one with a simple chatcommand (/startrpg "topic or short description"), which creates a clickable token (e.g. a sparkle floating in the air), through which anyone can join the conversation. Every minute, you stay in it (and say something) you get a small amount of exp. Just enough to give players a sense of accomplishment, but not enough to make it interesting for powerlevelers to create groups and collect exp while being afk.
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- If you really want to do something about furthering roleplaying, consider rewarding it in terms of exp (sorry to derail here). Instead of trying to find ways to reglement the usage of mainchat, consider implementing the game mechanic of a public, subscribeable group. Anyone can start one with a simple chatcommand (/startrpg "topic or short description"), which creates a clickable token (e.g. a sparkle floating in the air), through which anyone can join the conversation. Every minute, you stay in it (and say something) you get a small amount of exp. Just enough to give players a sense of accomplishment, but not enough to make it interesting for powerlevelers to create groups and collect exp while being afk.
The game is for people who consider the fun of roleplaying to be its own reward. By rewarding roleplaying with tools to powerlevel, you're turning roleplaying into another tool for powerlevelers. The quality of the RP environment will suffer as a result, since those seeking to use roleplay as a means to powerlevel will only put in the minimal level of effort required.
We had a similar problem when "points" were given to people for advising on the /help channel.
As far as those engaging in a roleplay being encouraged to join a particular group, I'm opposed to this for a number of reasons:
- Your character interacts with everyone he or she encounters and would normally interact with.
- Therefore, such groups would be superfluous.
- The requirement to join and leave such groups would disrupt the RP experience by making it less fluid and immerse.
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Listen to Xillix (i.e. your opinions are irrelevant if they don't target the improvement of the covenant) and shut up. The rest of you, tell me what we should do with Marqsaynt's short version, since it seems to be more what we're looking after. I think it's pretty good already, but you never know. Also, if Under the Moon or anyone else insists, we could add a note about common sense. You don't need to go very far to understand some people need to be alerted to that...
So this is what we have:
In order to completely experience PlaneShift, the player should agree with the following covenant:
- This is a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Play Game (MMORPG).
You and your character are not the same person. Live as the character you create, enjoy as the civilized person you are.
Example: In Character (IC) you may want to overthrow Yliakum's government, but out of character (OOC) you should just want to have fun, like the rest of us.
- Respect PlaneShift's unique game world.
Always keep your character’s chat, action, and history consistent with the PS universe.
Note: Make sure you know what exists in PlaneShift before making anything up. Self phones, vampires, hobbits, etc. do not belong in this game.
- Respect other Players.
The fun of an MMORPG is interacting with other people. Be sure to treat other players with respect.
Note: Remember that a player should always have a chance to react to another player’s action, so everyone has a role in this play. Ideally, all players involved should agree with the outcome or on a fair method of deciding the result, using the game mechanics everytime possible.
- Be consistent.
Stay true to your character, that is the only way he or she will become what you desire.
Note: This is a game where players often challenge each other and your character will end up being a result of other people's actions. If you want to follow a specific path with your hero, you are the one that has to focus on it. You can't become a hero here just because you wish, first you must earn it.
- When in doubt ask a Game Master (GM).
They volunteer for the love of the game and are there to help.
EDIT to add:
The reason, why people put their biography in their character description is because of the goofed up custom character generation. It not only allows people to easily create characters, that are unplayably low on stamina/health (though thats a topic for another thread), but activly teaches them, that the character description indeed is the place to jot down the story of your life.
Very well said. You're pointing towards some inconsistency from the PS Team itself.
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/me suggests the following changes.
In order to completely experience and enjoy PlaneShift as intended, the player should strive to abide by the following covenant, or -if that is not possible- to respect those who do:
- Respect PlaneShift's unique game world.
Always keep your character’s chat, action, and history consistent with the known PS universe. Much of this information can be found in the game through in-game books, quests, and other players. Don't be afraid to ask what you don't know!
Note: Make sure you know what exists in PlaneShift before making anything up. Cell phones, vampires, hobbits, etc. do not belong in this game.
- Interacting with others.
This is a multiplayer game! Let the actions of others' characters help shape and define who your character becomes. That is often the most fun part of role playing.
Note: You don't have to be a great role player to enjoy being part of fun roleplaying. No one is perfect. Practice and experiment. Meet new people. Go on adventures. Be your character, and join in the fun!
- Be consistent.
Stay true to your character(s)., that is the only way he or she will become what you desire. Playing your character consistently will not only make it easier to develop your character's personalty, it will aid others in interacting with you.
Note: This is a game where players often challenge each other and your character will end up being a result of other people's actions. If you want to follow a specific path with your hero, you are the one that has to focus on it. You can't become a hero here just because you wish, first you must earn it. (what?? Even as a native English speaker, I don't understand what was just said. ;) ) Don't play as a 'hero' one day and an 'evil villain' the next, then back again on a whim. If you wish do do this, follow a path that makes sense in the game world (over time or a traumatic event), or create a new character.
- Use Common Sense.
If you know something might upset another Real Life player, don't do it. This includes yelling at people because they are not playing the way you think they should, insulting others, trolling, or being rude. These things can get you into trouble with GMs. It is better to accept that others will not always play like you do, and have a bigger group of friends to enjoy the game with, than to expect perfection and play alone.
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Seems I'm a Federalist in an Anti-Federalist forum. Oh, well. I worked on the latest Articles of Confederation, uh, I mean "short" version and hopefully it's something that may actually be worth putting to a vote.
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We the roleplayers, in order to fully enjoy PlaneShift as intended, strive to abide by the following covenant, or, if that is not possible, to respect those who do.
We will...
- respect PlaneShift's unique game world and always keep character chat, action, and history consistent with the known PS universe.1
- be social and let the actions of others' characters help shape and define who our character(s) become since, collective creativity and unpredictability is often the most fun part of roleplaying.2
- be consistent and stay true to character, playing our character(s) consistently in order to ease development of their personality and to aid others in interacting with him/her/kra.
- use common sense. If we know an action will upset another player in real-life, we won't do it. This includes yelling at people because they are not playing the way we think they should, insulting others, trolling, or being rude. It is better to accept that others will not always play like we do, and have a large group of friends, than to expect perfection and play alone.
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1. Make sure you know what exists in PlaneShift before making anything up. Cell phones, vampires, hobbits, etc. do not belong in this game. Much information can be found in-game through books, quests, and other players. Don't be afraid to ask what you don't know!
2. You don't have to be a great roleplayer to enjoy roleplaying. No one is perfect. Practice and experiment. Meet new people. Go on adventures. Be your character and join in the fun!
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Listen to Xillix (i.e. your opinions are irrelevant if they don't target the improvement of the covenant) and shut up.
Always good advice. (No sarcasm.)
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Very nice. I like both, these two would work with me.
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If it makes you feel better, we are working to remove CC generated material out of the public and insert some instructions on how to properly describe a character. I don't know the progress on that fix but we are in agreement with those who say the information going there by default is incorrect.
Now to the Covenant: When you are done hammering out your compromise PM me the final version.
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If it makes you feel better, we are working to remove CC generated material out of the public and insert some instructions on how to properly describe a character. I don't know the progress on that fix but we are in agreement with those who say the information going there by default is incorrect.
for those will comments about descriptions please review and add comments to:
http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=1756
http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=1988
http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=2265
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for those will comments about descriptions please review and add comments to:
http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=1756
http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=1988
http://www.hydlaa.com/flyspray_upgrade/index.php?do=details&task_id=2265
I like those ones, Caarie. I assume this is only on bugtracker and there are no discussions on forums?
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I like those ones, Caarie. I assume this is only on bugtracker and there are no discussions on forums?
since discussion is already in progress on the tracker i would suggest keeping it there for now.
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Whoops, misunderstood Caarrie's post. :)
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Do you have something constructive to say or are you just giving your fingers exercise? You were asked to continue the discussion in the tracker on this particular subject, please do so as that is the official forum for things to get changed.
[EDIT] I am not a dev, but devs don't necessarily read the forums (for good reason). If you want a dev to take your opinions into account on any implementation issues, the proper place to do so is on the bug tracker.
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So Khoridor, [...] I don't think we should have what you call "useful information" (i.e. some sort of "rules" that you follow so you don't annoy people [...] The only thing we want from the covenant is that people know they are expected to roleplay and respect the setting and the players.
Then, on those assumptions, I find the latest drafts rather satisfying. Clarity has improved. I still think that too general a text will serve very little, but I'll go with the flow of those who are actually working on the text.
I prefer the Under the Moon's version of "be consistent" than Marqsaynt's; I find it easier to understand, specially the example.
I would also change "use common sense" for a less general formula, something related to the paragraph content (like be polite, or tactful, etc.)
Here is my try at "be social":
- This is a multiplayer game! Other characters actions can help shape who I become. Excluding or depriving others of my role-play may cost us a great moment of fun. Forcing myself into an RP, as well.
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Still awaiting that pm.
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Im aware of that I didn't contribute to this yet, but I believe such a discussion needs a (strong) moderation at least. Possibly do people from the community not dare to say "What I say counts" and do the moderation with all consequences (also proposing the uncompleted convenant).
Maybe someone wants to try?
Sen
#edit# Typo, how I missed them...
#edit2# Sorry, I somehow managed to miss the progress of the last 2 weeks and didn't read it back
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Khoridor, I agree Moon's version of "be consistent" was better so, I reincorporated 95% of it and made the actual covenant declaration shorter in the process (aka: I split it between the declaration part and the tips/explanation part). I like this latest version and I am happy to put my stamp of approval on this work. When I look it over I don't see the efforts of any single individual but the contributions of many different players. It feels like the work of a community and I like that. As far as I'm concerned this is a FINAL DRAFT. So, if anyone feels the sudden uncontrollable urge to start voting, I certainly wouldn't mind. *hint* *hint*
Now submitted for your perusal and approval, the latest (and hopefully last) version of PlaneShift's player created RP Covenant.
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We the roleplayers, in order to fully enjoy PlaneShift as intended, strive to abide by the following covenant, or, if that is not possible, to respect those who do.
We will...
- be consistent and stay true to character.1
- respect PlaneShift's unique game world and always keep character chat, action, and history consistent with the known PS universe.2
- be social and let the actions of others' characters help shape and define who our character(s) become since, collective creativity and unpredictability is often the most fun part of roleplaying.3
- use common sense. If we know an action will upset another player in real-life, we won't do it. This includes yelling at people because they are not playing the way we think they should, insulting others, trolling, or being rude. It is better to accept that others will not always play like we do, and have a large group of friends, than to expect perfection and play alone.
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1. Playing your character consistently will make it easier to develop their personalty and will aid others in interacting with him/her/kra.
2. Make sure you know what exists in PlaneShift before making anything up. Cell phones, vampires, hobbits, etc. do not belong in this game. Much information can be found in-game through books, quests, and other players. Don't be afraid to ask what you don't know!
3. You don't have to be a great roleplayer to enjoy roleplaying. No one is perfect. Practice and experiment. Meet new people. Go on adventures. Be your character and join in the fun!
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Looks great. Let's see if Under the Moon also likes it.
EDIT: If he does he should PM Xillix the final version, if he doesn't he should either tell us what he thinks is wrong with it or PM both his and your version to Xillix. This way we'll get things done in a second.
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Updated with UtM's latest PM'ed edit... and I just couldn't help myself and I did a little more tweaking as well. Every time I edit this thing it seems to get shorter. :P Call it "streamlining..." UtM, Sangwa, let me know what you think of this slightly modified version.
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We the roleplayers, in order to fully enjoy PlaneShift as intended, strive to abide by the following covenant, or, if that is not possible, to respect those who do.
We will...
- be consistent and stay true to character.1
- respect PlaneShift's unique game world and always keep character chat, action, and history consistent with the known PS universe.2
- interact with other players and let the actions of other characters help shape and define who our character(s) become. 3
- use common sense. If we know an action will upset another player in real-life, we won't do it. This includes yelling at people because they are not playing the way we think they should, insulting others, trolling, or being rude.4
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1. Playing your character consistently will make it easier to develop their personalty and will aid others in interacting with him/her/kra.
2. Make sure you know what exists in PlaneShift before making anything up. Cell phones, vampires, hobbits, etc. do not belong in this game. Much information can be found in-game through books, quests, and other players. Don't be afraid to ask what you don't know!
3. You don't have to be a great roleplayer to enjoy roleplaying. No one is perfect. Practice and experiment. Meet new people. Go on adventures. Be your character and join in the fun!
4. It is better to accept that others will not always play like you do, and have a large group of friends, than to expect perfection and play alone.
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Print it.
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Wow, that looks really good Marq. I haven't read up on the covenant for awhile because I was afraid of how long it might have become but it looks pretty good without sacrificing anything important. Now, only you were in game RPing, we could see if you could follow it yourself. ;)
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*starts the presses and fires off a copy to Xillix*
Edit: Oh and Illysia, those who can do, those who can't write about it! (only kidding, really)
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Very good job! Let's see if Xillix likes it as well.
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a little late but nevertheless:
Quote
be consistent and stay true to character.
conflicts with
Quote
use common sense. If we know an action will upset another player in real-life, we won't do it. This includes yelling at people because they are not playing the way we think they should, insulting others, trolling, or being rude
or are only nice characters allowed and why are out of character actions the example in a covenant regarding in character actions?
Personally I try to be consistent in my approach to real life but it doesn't always work out that way. Consistency is at the heart of boredom. If you always behave the same way are you not in essence Mary-Sue, Bruce Campbell, Pia Zadora or Jerry Lewis?
Quote
respect PlaneShift's unique game world and always keep character chat, action, and history consistent with the known PS universe
conflicts with
Quote
interact with other players and let the actions of other characters help shape and define who our character(s) become.
How can we be consistent and still allow others to change our essence? Are we to be changing at a consistent rate, or consistently changing? Can we be consistently chaotic This covenant has the consistency of tapioca pudding. Slippery in general with lumpy bits throughout.
It just seems a little redundant.
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My two Tria.
In my opinion, I find roleplay fun and exciting, but when myself and a few guildies are off on an old Ulbie hunt together, we tend to fall OOC in our banter and jokes, it's a natural thing.
For me, my personal policy is when I'm in the towns/cities, or talking to a person who I either don't know well or I know prefers rp 24/7, I rp.
When I'm with a bunch of buddies doing some grind, because you sometimes have to do that to have your big blue Kran club-wielding mercenary at an appropriate level of Mace&Hammer for his character, I tend to be a bit OOC, also in the guild-chat, or when I'm having a /tell conversation with someone miles away.
That's my personal usage of RP.
I think RP as a term should not be something where people feel to be better at it they must join a covenant or feel policed over it. Everyone has their own style. It's like telling Nicholas Cage to act like Matt LeBlanc. Or vice versa.
I also (under the subject of decent rp) must ask WHY DO RPERS MEET IN THE TAVERN/PLAZA FOR SWORDFIGHTS??!!
I have seen it so many times, and if Hydlaa were a real city, it would rate as crime flooded compared to a normal city. How hard is it to say "Oh, Calak, you are speaking evil of me for the last time! To the gates you fool! We shall take the fight there!"
The GMs aren't containing the situation, and I don't blame them, I wouldn't want to be dropping in the tavern just to make sure there are no fights (unless my mercenary was hired by the Octarch to do so in RP, something I have considered).
I think that to ensure good RP, Yliakum's laws need relaxing a little, as the government does not have as much power as it tries to use to enforce. It's obvious people don't want to fight in the middle of nowhere, they want to have an alley brawl or barfight, or a riot in the plaza... would be cool if the GMs held an 'event' where Hydlaa's governing body (The Vigesimi's court) actually relaxed the rules a bit for some warring guilds and had realistic policies.
Before anyone says "That opens it to abuse and bad play!!" - which is what the Rp Covenant is trying to prevent, remember you have several ways of reporting bad play and abuse...
/end ranting ... getting :offtopic:
My point overall is why have rules, policies, laws, covenants when there are so many (who claim to live by those rules policies laws and covenants) that break them.
Rp stands for Role-Play, not Rule-Policy.
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As time goes on you will find the GM's becoming more involved with policing the Octarchs decree not less, the Octarchs are dicatorial for a reason not yet revealed so there will not be a relaxation of laws.
The whole point of the covenant is to let people play as they wish but also to respect the roleplay of others, if you wish to go off with your guildies and camp the ulbers and chat oocly then fair enough but if others are around RPing then respect their paly and keep it in guildchat or other private channels.
Also anyone who continually hangs around and fights in the plaza/tavern is doing, what has been called godmodding, and is in breach of the covenant. (We currently don't have enough rping GMs available to do 24/7 Hydlaa Guard patrols)
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As time goes on you will find the GM's becoming more involved with policing the Octarchs decree not less, the Octarchs are dicatorial for a reason not yet revealed so there will not be a relaxation of laws.
With the possibility for very strict laws to be very strictly enforced, but also for the laws to be ignored and for passes to be granted at will, do you foresee any problems with consistency?
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So explain to me why anyone wants to escape the oppression of RL to live under the oppression of a RP government, or covenant.
And what the point is of learning martiality for any reason other than a stupid law.
Also, if it's something that cannot policed at this point in time, why not relax it until it can be enforced, and you could then play out the 'crackdown' etc.
It makes acting out an evil character wierdly unsatisfying if doing anything with an acceptable agree of evilness (murdering someone for instance) gets you kicked from the game for disobeying a rule, all because it flashes in the GMs main tab "Akaiddo Kivikar has been killed by Velenaro Eltiori!), when really it was a quiet stabbing in the alleyway behind Kada-Els.
How can you try and enforce rp, when you have an rp government incapable of rping it's ingame laws, and using ooc solutions for a range of things that can be done ic and well rp'd?
It all seems a little hypercritical.
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I would say it's incomplete instead of hypocritical.
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Hypocritical = lack of criticism.
Hypercritical = too much criticism, usually when the flaws they criticise are flaws they also have themselves.
Hence I called it hypercritical.
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Hypocritical also = having the quality of hypocrisy.
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That is besides the point, I called it hypercritical not hypocritical.
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You may want to take this discussion here instead.
http://www.englishforums.com/English/EslVocabularyAndIdioms/Forum29.htm
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If you dont like the rules on the RP server or dont want to follow the storyline we're creating then thats why we have the EZPC server.
and no I dont see any problem with consistancy once all the pieces are in place
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Main point is : No sign no play on RP for new people, yet me will not sign it yet will stay on RP server, same as them that are the couse of this being done.
Unless of course I Play up and get kicked from the RP one ^^
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It's not the rules I don't like, it's the fact things are being attempted to be enforced that in RP have no effect.
I am getting sick and tired of seeing fights in Hydlaa. If there's gonna be a law about it NOW, then enforce it NOW in RP.
Because having a law that isn't enforced makes the citizens have a high criminality and the government seem weak.
And also, I think your covenant needs revision to comprehend evil characters having more leeway to be evil.
Otherwise it becomes "Hi guys I'm your nest adversary. [you're meant to hate me I'm scum but in this game we have to be polite]"
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It's not the rules I don't like, it's the fact things are being attempted to be enforced that in RP have no effect.
I am getting sick and tired of seeing fights in Hydlaa. If there's gonna be a law about it NOW, then enforce it NOW in RP.
Because having a law that isn't enforced makes the citizens have a high criminality and the government seem weak.
And also, I think your covenant needs revision to comprehend evil characters having more leeway to be evil.
Otherwise it becomes "Hi guys I'm your nest adversary. [you're meant to hate me I'm scum but in this game we have to be polite]"
Personally I am against it, but it has been deemed it will be, so no point in fighting it, SO instead give some input as to what you would like in in, that is what this thread is about.
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We don't have enough people to enforce the law actively atm.
Applications for the gm team are welcomed.
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I would apply, as I spend alot of time ingame, but...
1) I don't feel I've been playing long enough.
2) Can I have an 'alt' as a GM? Akaiddo is more a lone valiant knight at the moment.
3) Do I need a new client to be a GM? And I'd also need to know the rules, etc.
And other issues.
I would like to point out (before anyone slams me for having alts) that each of my alternate accounts has three or four characters, all with differing RP attitudes and careers (I'd rather have ten or twelve different characters than one ultra-levelled character).
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Can I have an 'alt' as a GM? Akaiddo is more a lone valiant knight at the moment.
I've been wondering that, too.
Also, if by 'I'd also need to know the rules' is referring to GM-specific rules, I'm sure they'd tell new GM recruits what those are. If you're referring to the game's rules, just go re-read 'em every once in a while and you'll be fine.
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;_; I'm too young...
Gotta wait two years.. I'm only 19.
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I would apply, as I spend alot of time ingame, but...
2) Can I have an 'alt' as a GM? Akaiddo is more a lone valiant knight at the moment.
3) Do I need a new client to be a GM? And I'd also need to know the rules, etc.
2) gm and devs staff accounts are done on purpose and used only for that reason so you won't have a "gm char alt" in your current accounts (also because the permissions are set account wide not char wide)
3) no the same client used to play has the functions used by gm and devs. The only difference is what you can access and what the server allows you to do (eg:the server will refuse to send you a list of players or petitions from other players if you aren't logged in with an account with a particular security level)
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I am not sure whether to add this suggestion to the discussion of the Death Realm or here.
Players who fill Main chat with OCC conversations should be transported, without warning, to a Death Realm. But, it should be different than the Death Realm that all fallen players are sent to. It could look the same but must 1) not allow ANY chat at all, and 2) escape to the world of the living must be very difficult, perhaps random exits can appear and disappear so that violators of the simple but apparently incomprehensible rule that regulates OCC chat would suffer for an undetermined amount of time (never to exceed 5 days?).
Alright, alright. If that's too extreme, then what about cage under the sea?
Yes, I'm joking, sort of. Maybe. :whistling:
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weltall: Thanks for the enlightening info. Sadly I'm too young to be a GM...
My hypothetical GM account would look exactly like the guards of Hydlaa, shield and all, because my personal mission would be to stop the fighting in the plaza and tavern I see so much as a player.
Kangold D: Use of OOC language... is this within earshot of a GM or do you expect them to program the server to 'hear' it. Because I admit as a player, when out of earshot and chilling with mates, I can get OOC.
Also, Warnings should be given out. Newbs would not appreciate being tossed in the DR for things they don't know aren't appropriate. It takes a few weeks experience to know 'lol' is never RP. I like the current idea the game has for OOC type language. 'sup' becomes 'how farest thou' and so on. perhaps they could nail 'lol' on the head by making it turn the entire line into a /laugh command.
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...Kangold D: Use of OOC language... is this within earshot of a GM or do you expect them to program the server to 'hear' it. Because I admit as a player, when out of earshot and chilling with mates, I can get OOC...
You admit to this crime? If you are a lawbreaker how can you imagine yourself as a GM? For you there is no dungeon too dark. Posters of your image should be pasted on the walls of the city, and in bold, blood-red color read RP VIOLATOR :woot:
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All I can say is that it is sad to need a RP Covenant. When I used to play we role played without one and had such fun without breaking the rules of this covenant without even having one. Though back then I think PS had a different kind of audience.
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All I can say is that it is sad to need a RP Covenant. When I used to play we role played without one and had such fun without breaking the rules of this covenant without even having one. Though back then I think PS had a different kind of audience.
It is kind of sad. Commercial "pay-per-level" mmorpgs attracted some of those persons that Mathy refers to. And, perhaps, the most popular of the commercial, anti-roleplaying profit machines have trained many to expect less role-playing and more empty game mechanics. PlaneShift was and still is a wonderful canvas on which willing players of any level can create really cool RP. Hopefully, this forum thread is a candle in the darkness that has crept into PlaneShift through the cracks from the polluted stream of garbage games being marketed to the public. I'm pretty sure that the threat of penalties for breaking with good RP practices will solve nothing as there seems to be no practical way to monitor and enforce the practice which used to be something most PS players regarded with sacred honor and did their best to play by. But, I have read some good suggestions so far, and I think this thread heralds the changing of the tide from hopeless to hopeful.
I applaud those who want to encourage better role-playing, and will support all reasonable measures to motivate players to follow good RP practices. I don't have any brilliant ideas to add right now but this thread is a great way to begin addressing the problem. Thanks.
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I still think that the ultimate solution is in the mechanics. People come to play the game, and a game lends itself to be played a certain way.
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It is kind of sad. Commercial "pay-per-level" mmorpgs attracted some of those persons that Mathy refers to. And, perhaps, the most popular of the commercial, anti-roleplaying profit machines have trained many to expect less role-playing and more empty game mechanics. PlaneShift was and still is a wonderful canvas on which willing players of any level can create really cool RP. Hopefully, this forum thread is a candle in the darkness that has crept into PlaneShift through the cracks from the polluted stream of garbage games being marketed to the public. I'm pretty sure that the threat of penalties for breaking with good RP practices will solve nothing as there seems to be no practical way to monitor and enforce the practice which used to be something most PS players regarded with sacred honor and did their best to play by. But, I have read some good suggestions so far, and I think this thread heralds the changing of the tide from hopeless to hopeful.
I applaud those who want to encourage better role-playing, and will support all reasonable measures to motivate players to follow good RP practices. I don't have any brilliant ideas to add right now but this thread is a great way to begin addressing the problem. Thanks.
This is most eloquently articulated. I will say this also; role play took a great deal of imagination. We worked hard to make our role plays work. Though I will also say it was most satisfying when it was done, yes exhausting, but what fun we had!! And that was without a role play covenant. I ask what has changed.
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The tutorial stresses roleplay. The community encourages roleplay. There are rules that keep you from stepping too far out of bounds. What else do you really need?
While I am all for encouraging a heavy-RP environment, I'm not for enforcing a covenant. But that is just me.
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I also think it is sad that people are wanting to sign a covenant.
1) It is clearly stated it is game rules to be IC as much as possible. Why do we need an extra covenant to authorise this? It seems like people wanting an ego-trip to be like "I'm such an elite RPer I conform to the Covenant standards!"
2) The Covenant has no use, you sign up to it, and then what? It's not gonna stop newbs saying 'lol', or any other OOC problems we get.
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Enderandrew goes to erase his shortcut to /say lol
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Developers and older players think of the "planeshift player" as the antithesis of the "runescape player". But when you look at how people actually behave in-game, it seems our idea of the planeshift player doesn't match the current reality. In reality, it's much more mixed between the roleplayers and those who are looking for a runescape-like game. Many feel that the "runescape players" make up a significantly visible portion of the planeshift playerbase, if not a statistical majority.
Roleplayers attract other roleplayers, but an environment where roleplay is consistently disrupted will cause players seeking roleplay to leave PlaneShift for other games. The covenant is one of several initiatives (other examples being the tutorial and the new server) that the development team has undertaken in order to push the player community in a direction more in keeping with the expectations of developers and old-time players.
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I think there is a fine line. You want the game to be enjoyable "out of the box". A good MMO can be enjoyed largely, even without a group. The game should be enjoyable even if you don't have to create your own framework on enjoyment via roleplay. Gameplay should be enjoyable enough to keep new players when they first start.
However, having a bit of a learning curve and not making everything to easy to the new player should drive away some of the Runescape crowd.
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Well I think the game should be enjoyable day 1. Currently, parts of it are enjoyable day 1 (like the scenery, creating your character, and the music), but other parts tend to cause a lot of grief to new players (like figuring out how to find your first quest, combat, leveling, and navigating the death realm). This is kind of a separate issues though, although it's still a valid one.
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Been giving this a bit of thought, here is my answer that I would if I was a new player be happy to sign.
Using This server requires you to Role Play, there is also a Server for non Role Play.
Basic rule to be used for all occasions.
If a Player is reported for repeated ooc/bad conduct, the GM/team will look at the server logs to determine if this Player is doing it, on receiving a complaint all parties will be informed they are being looked into, and that the guilty person will receive a warning.
A. This means if you have falsely accused someone you will receive a warning.
B. If you were found guilty you will receive a warning.
How it works.
1. On receiving a warning you will be placed on a list of warned players.
2. If you repeat the offence again you will receive a finial warning (Any rule broken now will get you removed from Role Player server.)
3. If you break any rule again you will be removed from the Role Player Server.
Now my idea is this, on downloading game and before you can create a character, you will get in Giant red letters this message, which you have to agree to if you want to carry on.
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What is all this discussion about punishment and rules now?
I thought this Covenant was about helping people, about all (role-)players would have a general agreement, a guideline?
I remember years back there always were numerous debates about what is the right or wrong way to roleplay, and that is why finally this Covenant was created: again, to once and for all give vague enough directions.
So once again: What is this nonsense now, whining about punishment and sadness over people finally agreeing to one guideline that includes most variations on how to roleplay, but still leaves enough freedom to play your own style?
Rennaj:
Great ideas actually, maybe you should extent it by requiring handwritten signings and personal data for you can even impose fines? Could help the budget - wait, you are joking, right? lol
(Btw, You having an avatar is obsolete now?)
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Simple it is stated that this is a Role Player Server, Also states What will happen to you if you misbehave, but above all, Lets you Role Play how you want, NOT how others want you to.
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@ post 223: What you wrote is technically correct, but it doesn't fulfill the purpose of a community compact. What you wrote basically says "If you break the rules, you will be dealt with." Technically correct, but the purpose of the compact is to communicate more complicated expectations than that. Also, the form of the covenant that was voted on communicated a definition of roleplay, where-as the covenant in post 223 does not.
@ post 225: The problem is that you aren't allowed to roleplay however you want. What others expect from your roleplay is very relevant. For instance, I can't enter the game and roleplay that I'm Batman, even if it's what I want to do. It has to be within the settings, and non-disruptive.
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Simple answer to your points, ADD within settings.
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It would still be technically correct without actually communicating much, let alone communicating community expectations in a sophisticated way.
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:thumbdown:
The whole problem could be avoided if there was better knowledge on RP available for newbs from the start...
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It would still be technically correct without actually communicating much, let alone communicating community expectations in a sophisticated way.
Here is a example of what I do not like about this, ((community expectations))
Whether or not you like it I and others are part of the community, so who are you or others to say who is right?
We already have a Role Play guide, it is here http://www.planeshift.it/roleplay.html
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It would still be technically correct without actually communicating much, let alone communicating community expectations in a sophisticated way.
Here is a example of what I do not like about this, ((community expectations))
Whether or not you like it I and others are part of the community, so who are you or others to say who is right?
We already have a Role Play guide, it is here http://www.planeshift.it/roleplay.html
Well it's not coming from me, it's coming from the devs. Argue with Xillix if you don't like it.
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Install this sign all over the map, even on the nose of the Death Realm exit monster---problem solved! ;D
(http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/1710/ouitofchar.jpg)
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I decree that the sign itself is OOC, and those posting the sign should be hanged.
"Those responsible for sacking the people who have just been sacked have been sacked."
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Well it's not coming from me, it's coming from the devs. Argue with Xillix if you don't like it.
Actually if you read the OP it's coming from the players it has neither been put to the poll nor ratified yet
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Well it's not coming from me, it's coming from the devs. Argue with Xillix if you don't like it.
Actually if you read the OP it's coming from the players it has neither been put to the poll nor ratified yet
The post Janner was responding to was this:
It would still be technically correct without actually communicating much, let alone communicating community expectations in a sophisticated way.
(emphasis added)
But anyway, even if you DO go to the OP, you will find this:
I move that the players try to establish a set of roleplaying principles that they want to adhere to.
If you read further through the rest of the OP, you will find that one part of developing the covenant is producing a definition of roleplay.
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and even your quotes point out that the ideas and definitions come from the players not the devs
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and even your quotes point out that the ideas and definitions come from the players not the devs
Janner was complaining that the covenant is being used to define roleplay. Janner was not complaining about specific ideas towards roleplay - Janner was instead complaining that specific ideas about roleplay are being inserted into the covenant. Having a covenant, and the nature of the covenant, came from Xillix. If it did not originate with Xillix, it was sponsored and moved forward by Xillix.
Yes, you are right that players are giving input and are being given the opportunity to craft their own covenant. I didn't say it was otherwise. Although the covenant we create must be approved by the GM team before anything happens with it.
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and even your quotes point out that the ideas and definitions come from the players not the devs
Janner was complaining that the covenant is being used to define roleplay. Janner was not complaining about specific ideas towards roleplay - Janner was instead complaining that specific ideas about roleplay are being inserted into the covenant. Having a covenant, and the nature of the covenant, came from Xillix. If it did not originate with Xillix, it was sponsored and moved forward by Xillix.
Yes, you are right that players are giving input and are being given the opportunity to craft their own covenant. I didn't say it was otherwise. Although the covenant we create must be approved by the GM team before anything happens with it.
Shalmaneser I am posting as Rennaj, so unless you want me to address you as I have here, IT is Rennaj. now I am discussing and putting forward my view's and ideas. not complaining.
The opening post is from Xillix, so no need to argue that point anymore.
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Principles are ideals. A covenant suggests a contract. What are the specific terms? How is it enforced?
I think worrying about those details takes away from actually playing and enjoying the game. That is merely my two tria.
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the terms that were agreed upon are posted in http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34508.0
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and even your quotes point out that the ideas and definitions come from the players not the devs
Janner was complaining that the covenant is being used to define roleplay. Janner was not complaining about specific ideas towards roleplay - Janner was instead complaining that specific ideas about roleplay are being inserted into the covenant. Having a covenant, and the nature of the covenant, came from Xillix. If it did not originate with Xillix, it was sponsored and moved forward by Xillix.
Yes, you are right that players are giving input and are being given the opportunity to craft their own covenant. I didn't say it was otherwise. Although the covenant we create must be approved by the GM team before anything happens with it.
Shalmaneser I am posting as Rennaj, so unless you want me to address you as I have here, IT is Rennaj. now I am discussing and putting forward my view's and ideas. not complaining.
The opening post is from Xillix, so no need to argue that point anymore.
I can use Rennaj if you want me to, I just figured that Janner was your player / regular forum monicker and how I got to know you where-as Rennaj was the name you used as a GM. Shalmaneser isn't an equivalent to Janner since my OOC posts on the forum are made as Zanzibar.
And yes, you were expressing your views and ideas, which are as valid as any other opinion. But it does seem like you're dissatisfied with how things are progressing.
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What happened to this approach?
During the recent discussion about a potential wipe it was proposed to make agreeing to such a covenant mandatory if desired to log into Laanx.
Now there was only a partial wipe - does that mean having to officially agree to such a covenant is postponed(tm), including all consequences for GM's options on intervention and players choices on behaviour?
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From my perspective and recollection...
After several versions and re-writes evolving from contributions from several players that I respect, a naysayer movement sprang up and, at least for me, was the breaking point for having any interest in further contributing. After being repeatedly told that a covenant is unnecessary, unenforceable, and being created purely out of ego, I essentially washed my hands of the whole business choosing personal sanity over an RP covenant. (Another less logical but still noteworthy attack i recall was lamenting the need to even have a covenant of rules at all. I found this Utopian mourning more amusing than anything and was not a key factor in my minor disillusionment with the RP covenant movement.)
If there is a resurgence of interest I am confident there is a very strong foundation already established by the earlier work but, going off my own experience I doubt too many of the prior contributors will wish to spearhead the cause again.
I would be interested in knowing where this idea currently stands with the settings team and for what reason it was essentially left to sputter into hibernation.
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I wonder if it wouldnt require some hurdle to take, for one who wants to achieve taking it.
Call it elitist, but down at some level, sometimes it just needs some minimum level requirement for making er.. kick people's rears=P
Naysayers, okay I agree Marq, it is always easier and more comfortable to say "Nah come on, lets keep it as simple and easy as possible" - but I think if PS strives for sticking out of the masses, it has to set some hurdle:
"If you want to roleplay in this very special RP niche-game, then be willed to stick to the rules, and if you are willed, you will be supported by all means possible, individual players and the team".
"To be willed" is the keyword here, thats why its a "covenant" and not a ruleset.
PlaneShift wants as many people as possible no matter whats their intention, or does it want to attract people honestly getting into roleplay and enhancing the atmosphere?
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This was a very large and thread to try and get through, but I did my best. I was disappointed to read that someone feels all RPs should be done in main. I can think of a couple of examples, because of game mechanics, that this idea does not work. The game mechanics have a set distance where comments can be "heard", which is necessary. But there is also a true life aspect that people talk at different volumes and ambient noise affects hearing. So it is not always appropriate to RP in main.
1) a group or couple of people talking quietly at a table in the taverns will not necessarily be heard by the person standing at the bar.
2) if a site is busy, then not all conversations would be as easily distinguished as simply reading the main chat.
3) people in the rooms in Kada El's would not necessarily be heard by people downstairs and vice versa.
4) sitting in an out of the way area of any map, again, talking quietly and would not necessarily be overheard by someone passing by within 'game mechanics range of hearing.'
5) a couple of characters are having a sensitive/private convo or a romantic picnic in less trafficked area may stop talking when a stranger approaches. So the players might use Guild/Group to convey that the conversation is held at a low volume. (good RPers acknowledge the newcomer, but have a right to IC politely inform the newcomer in main they are having a private conversation. If the newcomer chooses not to leave then things should be handled in an RP way: move away or change the subject. Likewise players should be respectful and act accordingly if they have come up on a private conversation, don't sit/stand with the intent to be annoying or dance on the table or sit on an avatars head.)
Yes, there is a point and purpose for RPing in guild and group, as I hope the above examples have demonstrated.
An unusual use of OOC [but practical]: From time to time to avoid RL operator error [missing something that some typed] and character action, I have been known to let a fellow RPer know that my character did not notice or chose to ignore an action and continue with what my character was doing. And fellow guildmembers occasionally check with me to make sure that I saw the comment/action of their character, because sometimes I miss things.
Otherwise I agree with most of the versions of the 'commandments', but most of those points are all covered in the tutorial.
And is very hard to stay in settings as a character grows because some of the settings are 'hidden' in books throughout Yliakum. Clearly, people that say they know the settings because they read the website, have not found some of the IG books. It is hard to know those books/settings are there unless another player tells you. The volumes that detail DR are a great example, there is a ALOT of necessary information in those that might affect how a player forms their character, but they don't know it until they stumble on it OR someone else tells them. In the meantime they have possibly already done incorrect RP storylines and history. I have, occasionally, directed players in 'tell' toward those books if I come across description or RPs that are grossly outside of settings.
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@EStripus: I think there are bigger IC/OOC issues facing PS than whether someone can overhear another person in a tavern. What stings me more is that 'lol' is so commonplace in Main, without brackets, along with 'lmao', etc.
RPing or OOCing in Guild and Group is fine either way, so long as whoever is running the guild/group makes it clear which option is chosen. It's entirely optional. What needs enforcing is RP in Main, whether through server kicks, short bans, whatever is necessary. Signing up to an RP covenant isn't necessary, as it clearly says at the bottom of the client when Fragnetics is selected that all players on that server are expected to partake in RP and that there are consequences for being OOC or using leetspeak.
Just my humble opinion.
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I have changed my opinion slightly since I remembered my first days of trying to learn to RP from stats on paper and internet didn't exist. I think the covenant is a fine idea to summarize good RPing guidelines/behavior for those that might not understand or remember all of the guidelines during the tutorial. It gives new RPers a concise point of reference because Planeshift might be their first true RP experience. I have spent time with some great RPers that said: I didn't really know how to RP when I first started, it was a new experience for me.
\\o// It seems we all agree on the same tenents, we just keep wording them differently. Let's get it on the main website where people are most likely to see it OR as a post somewhere on the main index so people can find it quickly and easily.
@Zoel: My reply was to the person that thought all RPs should be done in main. Unfortunately, I couldn't remember that person's name, so I gave reasons why I did not agree with his/her statement. That person's point was a comment pertaining to creating an interactive world and RPing etiquette.
My examples are also valid to RPing what a character would reasonably hear and discover (IC) vs what a player knows because of the mechanics of the game (OOC). That falls directly under this thread to discuss proper RPing styles, etiquette, and use of OOC vs IC knowledge, and seperation of unnecessary OOC comments in main chat in order to create the convenants.