PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Xillix Queen of Fools on December 01, 2008, 10:33:21 pm
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So what do you think?
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Yes, at least as long as there is no change that supports both, roleplaying and attacking at the same time. You cannot type/roleplay when your char can die within seconds without a warning.
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Alf says PvP rules should be consistent everywhere and doesn't know why they are magically different in some areas vs. others, therefore the answer can't be Yes or No as those rules seem to be losely defined, or are they?
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There is not enough support for global pvp.
That won't be happening any time soon.
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Gloval PvP needs support amongst players or support in game settings to enforce the laws I wonder?
I see Yes may be the way to go then, until a system is in place to support whatever law enforcement and consequences that the game will have instated. Like Orgonwukh stressed, levelled up duelers will have an advantage against players that want to roleplay in that area, though I would never imagine someone killing off a group that is trying to roleplay in the area, it just doesn't seem possible... pah, ha, that's a good one. I do like the PvP element though, it is a rogue camp after all and it should be dangerous... and the community did come together last time to try and put a stop to the attacks in the area, and that brought some excitement to the game. Ah, tough one...
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I like limited-area PVP implementation. So long as the client gets a notification that they have crossed into one of those areas. Preferably in a big red text message. Have not checked out the camp yet, sorry. But I like the implementation.
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PvP anywhere else is fine, but I don't quite see why it would be in a rogue camp. That draws so much attraction when people all of a sudden start popping back out of DR and alarm the guards where the rogues killed them.
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The camp is for those who have been banished from hydlaa and the other major cities.
Anyway I am going to defer to the crowd on this issue so keep voting.
If however the pvp is removed and the area is still dead I will revisit the issue.
In terms of support, right now I am only talking about community support, we simply don't have a system of laws and pvp in place and given that there are major areas of instability and other big problems, this system is not currently high in our list of priorities.
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I think that having it as a pvp area is fine but perhaps the npcs should be mostly spread out at the perimeters, inside the boundary but close enough so they can be interacted with from outside with impunity. One or two bosses with a limited number of high value quests could still reside at the heart of the area, just to tempt the unwary. Then again if the npc's are attackable that might be a wrinkle I haven't considered.
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I think I will vote No.
Even with all the current flaws of the PvP system, there are so few PvP areas that I believe it should be left for the amusement of PvP friendly players. Others who want to go there for questing should know the part of danger associated with these quests and this area, and behave accordingly.
The PvP should stay, at least until it is replaced with something else that would keep the camp a risky place. As an example, the camp would not be PvP, but dialogs gone wrong with NPCs could turn the challenge flag of a character for a while, the NPC shouting to everyone to kill him/her.
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I think it should stay. It is a reasonable assumption that you take on a large risk going there. Especially since the occupants might be a little cranky after being banished. I would like to point out, though, the need for self restraint. The last thing we need are people hanging out there just so they can kill people as soon as the unsuspecting come by.
One of the reasons I hate games that have strong PvP element is that you basically have to stop everything else and learn how to duel and level just to keep from being killed constantly.... Use common sense with the PvP zone. Even rogues would get tired of someone constantly killing people in the camp.
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I think, as it has been said, that this camp is dangerous, and I like the idea of concerned citizans 'raiding' the camp to wipe out rouges. However, I would appreciate it if people didn't constantly PvP and harrass others in the camp. That said, I need to make a visit to the camp sometime. It's something I haven't done yet. :-[
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I ran into the camp unsuspecting and before I knew what was happening I was dead. I admit - I had not read the warnings. Cause it was night, I didn't even see the warning-thingies in the darkness. And as there is no other indicator of a PVP zone I voted to have it removed. I'm not one for duels or PVP, and I suppose others are not either.
So, if PVP areas are to stay in usually non-PVP surroundings, I need something to make me aware. I'm always prepared for attacking NPCs, but for not getting killed by a player like by a Dlayo [OK, it wasn't with my main char and Kra's a weakling ;-) ]. And with the game growing chances are high there will be more PVP areas coming. And I'm not keen on running into them blindly. So for me this is not just about this area, but the way the game deals with them.
I also support what Prolix already said - if it's a PVP area make the NPCs with quests accessible from outside the zone. I got killed 3 times when trying to deliver an item for a quest. And the outcome of the quest wasn't worth the three trips through DR (or having to tramp all the way back from Gug while suffering from the curse). :-p Haven't even tried to take more quests there though my Kran probably wouldn't mind helping some banned characters... but it's just to dangerous for him. His own life has to come first. And standing around somewhere outside for ages waiting for the camp to be deserted by all players just so I can safely do quests there isn't much fun. And isn't that what a game's about after all?
On a side note: I had the same problem at the arena - I just got killed without having a clue I was in a PVP area. Just pang - you're dead. [Luzino knows who killed him when he was still weak and unsuspecting and he hates this guy for it.] I still don't know if there's a warning somewhere that the area is PVP, I haven't checked, just avoided it.
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The camp is not obtrusive where it is. And having NPCs dangerous to approach is what makes them interesting. Not everybody will be able to do all the quests, and that's one way to refrain some people. Or to make them go as a group, as we can read in other threads that people don't group anymore.
Besides, I would have thought that rogue players would naturally get camp leaders, and that these leaders would establish some sort of law there.
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One of my main characters is a rogue and I haven`t visited the camp since the troubles with lack of restraint on the part of some other players (though there was an alliance of rogue players, the activities of some made it bad for others). I don`t object to PVP areas but as it is we cannot RP at the camp. Someone will just see you as a convenient target and before you know it there are rocks flying at you.
I want somewhere rogues can RP. If the camp remains PVP, please give us another locale more suitable to RP (or alternatively if another location could be made PVP...the high-sided pass on BDroad1 for example and the camp made more RP-friendly).
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this camp is dangerous, and I like the idea of concerned citizans 'raiding' the camp to wipe out rouges. However, I would appreciate it if people didn't constantly PvP and harrass others in the camp.
I liked that idea, a nomadic camp where banished criminals and renegades gather, drink excessively, sit around the fire and tell of their last raids and ambushes in rough tongues and brawlings now and then!
In contrast, the facts are all the opposite: 'sobering'. Excessive use is made of mechanics at most. Those people duelling there certainly have their fun, I dont blame them for that, but Settings are quite disregarded there. Its not like people "ruling" there would try to avoid Hydlaa because they were renegades, they just dont care about it, rush the DR, due to their race spawn in Hydlaa and return to the scene. Or they meet other people on the plaza, train, auction publically and whatnot. Banishment? Infamous outlaws? Nada.
There is just no way to immerse for people who want to roleplay. I for one avoid that place because I would find my char in DR at once on one hand, and on the other, with all the off-setting talk this place just doesnt provide any ambience.
The camp is for those who have been banished from hydlaa and the other major cities.
I appreciate that your effort, but other than the mechanical aspect, PvP that is, nothing of your statement above could be realized.
Chances are however, I have a different idea of Immersion, Roleplaying and Settings, and all my statements may be wrong, in what case I am sure you are going to tell me.
My vote for "Yes". Why dont you just move the PvP zone a little bit away from the camp, so people in and in close range around the camp cant be killed, and maybe neither duellers /say chat could be heard?
Just dont make it too far away from the camp, having it in sight, in case the PvPers had any interest in being close to it.. ;)
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I think that having it as a pvp area is fine but perhaps the npcs should be mostly spread out at the perimeters, inside the boundary but close enough so they can be interacted with from outside with impunity.
Actually, the outlaws do something similar at the moment. We stay a few meters outside the rogue camp for guild meetings. Your proposal is a solution which would enable interaction with NPCs while keeping the PvP area. However the picture of rock throwing PLers surrounded by people speaking to NPC rogues is a bit odd ::|
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I'm a bit surprised to say it, but get rid of it. I don't think the PvP mechanics work well enough yet to have a PvP area. For example, i've seen a player step just inside the boundary, to draw an attack, and as soon as one spell is cast step back out to safety. After that initial attack, the player is free to respond with a counter attack any time they want to, anywhere they want to, even if it's not a PvP area. That's just one example though, there are other issues with mage/warrior balance that make PvP areas tremendously unfair for some players. Basically I like PvP, and i like the idea, but it's just not working yet.
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The camp is for those who have been banished from hydlaa and the other major cities.
Then why are there just rogues there? There should also be historians, poets, politicians, pacifists, etc.
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I see the community divided . . .
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If the idea is that rogue-controlled areas are lawless, then it shouldn't be open PVP. What you do in the rogue camp should have consequences with the guards when you return to the city, just as what you do in the middle of the wilderness has consequences with the guards, thus why we don't have open PVP everywhere outside the city.
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I think that having it as a pvp area is fine but perhaps the npcs should be mostly spread out at the perimeters, inside the boundary but close enough so they can be interacted with from outside with impunity.
Actually, the outlaws do something similar at the moment. We stay a few meters outside the rogue camp for guild meetings. Your proposal is a solution which would enable interaction with NPCs while keeping the PvP area. However the picture of rock throwing PLers surrounded by people speaking to NPC rogues is a bit odd ::|
If rogues have their own set of laws and forbid causing trouble, then why is it safer outside the camp than it is inside? I would think that it would be safer inside the camp, since the rogues themselves would act as guards to maintain a basic level of civility.
If PVP means that no roleplaying is happening at the rogue camp, then I think we should remove PVP since PlaneShift is a roleplaying game.
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The boundary of the pvp area represents the limit of the sphere of influence of the gangs beyond which even law enforcement only go in numbers. Realistically speaking there would be a transition area where the factions power are mixed. It is hard to model that kind of complexity and it is not particularly necessary to do so.
As far as people attacking the npc's from outside the barrier it could be made so that they are only vulnerable to attacks from within the boundary. Of course you cannot completely eliminate the potential for abuse.
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All the poets got ganked, it is the same reason why 90% of people don't make it through the tutorial.
Poetry is dead, pvp killed it.
Now rp will kill pvp, then where will we be?
Literacy is for oldbies, long live the n00b!!
/me eats the n00b.
maybe it isn't pvp but ooc that killed literacy, that killed the pvp area, that killed poetry, but i dunno we swallowed the rp! I think we'll grind. . .
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If dissenters and poets suffer the punishment of true-death, why are violent rogues allowed to live outside the city? I guess the pen is more threatening to Yliakum society than the dagger.
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They didn't have enough money to bribe the magistrate ;)
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Its just a PVP area outside the city. What is the big deal? Leave it, its more interesting this way. If PlaneShift is a roleplaying game, I sure see precious little RP in game. Maybe instead of hanging out on the forum and worrying every detail to death, everybody should go in game and start some RP.
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If dissenters and poets suffer the punishment of true-death, why are violent rogues allowed to live outside the city? I guess the pen is more threatening to Yliakum society than the dagger.
Afaik, the camp is not meant to be a landmark authorities overlook or neglect but it should move around constantly in order to avoid detection. We're just not there yet but you should keep that in mind for your RP.
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Its just a PVP area outside the city. What is the big deal? Leave it, its more interesting this way. If PlaneShift is a roleplaying game, I sure see precious little RP in game. Maybe instead of hanging out on the forum and worrying every detail to death, everybody should go in game and start some RP.
It would also be "interesting" if ulbernauts spawned randomly in the plaza, but you don't see that happening.
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I guess the pen is more threatening to Yliakum society than the dagger.
I would agree with that last statement, since pens can cause much more permanent damage than a trip to the death realm and back.
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Once it was stated a trip through the Death Realm was a horrible one, one to leave its marks - given the one was lucky enough to find an exit at all, which was meant to be rare.
How is it now? Death Realm trip a joke again?
Okay, was a retorical question.. :P
But I might agree. Pens can be utilized to move masses up against the government, cause hate and distrust towards the rulers among the common citizens, while rogues fighting guards with swords my cause some victims, but will be defeated sooner or later anyway, without leaving an heir.
However, criminals fighting each other - shouldnt they fight a common enemy, instead of decimating their own numbers?
I dare to provoke, saying criminals fighting each other are either plain stupid or entirely unorganized tramps ;D
So: let those tramps kill each other in distance to the more organized criminals that managed to set up a camp, move it around on a weekly basis, and keep it up living.
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Since pvp is kinda more like a joke than some real experience (IMO because characters don't use their skills to parry and defend themselves and Hit Points aren't representing this)
There could be no pvp for me at all.
Combat is simply incomplete.
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All the poets got ganked, it is the same reason why 90% of people don't make it through the tutorial.
Poetry is dead, pvp killed it.
Now rp will kill pvp, then where will we be?
Literacy is for oldbies, long live the n00b!!
/me eats the n00b.
maybe it isn't pvp but ooc that killed literacy, that killed the pvp area, that killed poetry, but i dunno we swallowed the rp! I think we'll grind. . .
Concluding: You claim that RP and PVP are mutually exclusive?
I try to prove the contrary everyday. Until now it requires OOC agreements between the two sides in a violent conflict. I'd love to see a solution which enables RP and PvP by game mechanics. And I already made feature requests for that. But at the moment we lack this sort of support, so I think we should just remove the source for troubles.
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You claim that RP and PVP are mutually exclusive?
The way it is now, yes. Before a year ago and likely after as well, we had a really bad problem with people challenging other players in the plaza, then shouting things like "Coward!" at them if the duel challenge was declined. Some players were worse for it than others. Some players would even get their guilds involved, so that if you declined a challenge, you would suddenly have ten or more people shouting insults at you and saying mean things through /tell.
PVP in the most general sense is within the sphere of RP, so long as there are realistic consequences and in-character motivations. But we have neither IC motivations nor realistic consequences.
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PvP and RP are absolutely not exclusive.
The /challenge tool is not perfect, and has no RP protocol clearly associated with it. But players can deal with it, and achieve what they intended to achieve.
A PvP zone is a different issue, as it is apparently much more difficult to achieve RP there. It's supposed to provide danger and tension, but seems to provide mostly childish bullying (if I understand correctly).
I still think it should stay because:
- it can serve as a test field for improving the open PvP system.
- since nobody is actually banned from towns, nobody is forced to go there. No RP is really impaired; no craft is impossible; only some quest are made troublesome.
I'd prefer suggestions to make things work rather than simply giving up.
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No RP reason?
How am I supposed to play a char. that has little fear of danger and runs into trouble without thinking if there is no danger?
How are the bullies supposed to RP their bullying without being able to bully? (Yes there are bullies everywhere)
How are those that want to RP protecting the innocent if there is nothing to protect?
What are the Sheeples for if not to bully? I guess there is no reason for them either? Lets ban them too!!!!
Maybe an OOC warning could be added to the tutorial for newbs, so they know the danger.
Leave the PvP there and later expand to the roads so caravan attacks, etc. can happen. Without that it is like the bandits asking permission to rob. Seems kind of silly to me. Just like testing strength of monsters, YES it will kill a few newbs..... Until they learn how to deal with it. Does that mean there are going to be 85 bandits gathered at every PvP location all the time? No. It will still be safe.....Most of the time.
If PvP areas on the road are a concern make safe walking passages with guards or something. Force the caravans with wagons or whatever means of carrying use the unsafe passages due to terrain and not being able to use the "safe passages" and mark them as such. Caravans are not likely to be populated with a bunch of newbs that don't know what they are getting into, but more experienced people to RP some kind of event. Advertised or not.
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There are bullies in the world.
They get dealt with.
With the duel spammers, they would always talk about "respect" and "honour". It was a very thug-like mentality. I believe that people were doing this, not for IC reasons, but because they enjoyed having power over others.
"Boom, Headshot!"
I don't have patience for it. It doesn't belong here.
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There are bullies in the world.
They get dealt with.
With the duel spammers, they would always talk about "respect" and "honour". It was a very thug-like mentality. I believe that people were doing this, not for IC reasons, but because they enjoyed having power over others.
"Boom, Headshot!"
I don't have patience for it. It doesn't belong here.
I do agree with you in part, in many circumstances you are completely right. But to be fair, I'd also like to point out that some of the people who complain about "duel spammers" will roleplay their character to insult and provoke others, and then decline challenges as if it would be OOC to attack such a person.
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There are bullies in the world.
They get dealt with.
With the duel spammers, they would always talk about "respect" and "honour". It was a very thug-like mentality. I believe that people were doing this, not for IC reasons, but because they enjoyed having power over others.
"Boom, Headshot!"
I don't have patience for it. It doesn't belong here.
I do agree with you in part, in many circumstances you are completely right. But to be fair, I'd also like to point out that some of the people who complain about "duel spammers" will roleplay their character to insult and provoke others, and then decline challenges as if it would be OOC to attack such a person.
Here's an example. I asked someone if she was a member of an underground thieves guild. She took it as an insult and sent a /tell to her real life boyfriend. He came to me from somewhere else in the game world, roleplayed spitting in my face, shouted insults at me, and sent me a challenge. I armed myself, accepted the challenge, and stood in place. He rushed at me and died. Minutes later, he returned from the death realm, roleplayed spitting in my face again, shouted more insults at me and accused me of being a cheater for not accepting the challenge right away (while I was unarmed and inside the tavern), then left.
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Another example: I backstabbed someone in a PVP zone while he was waiting for a gladiator to spawn. He sent me a /tell saying that I was in trouble because his guild leader was a GM. He then found me with two of his guildmates backing him up. They all duel challenged me at the same time.
Another example: I was standing in the plaza and someone I didn't know challenged me to a duel. We went down to the fountain. As soon as I accepted it, the other player ran away and starting shooting arrows at me from afar. I later found out that player's guild leader disliked me OOCly.
Another example: Back when there was only a single NPC that dropped weapons, it was a well guarded secret, and a well camped spawn. There was a group there ahead of me who were all from the same guild. I wanted to have a turn at the monster. They all challenged me. I declined. So they called in a GM. When one GM told them I was allowed to stay, they called in a different one.
Duels can and often do enrich the roleplay experience, but it's far more often that the feature is abused.
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The way you describe it that one was perfectly one of that "boom-headshot" fraction (decent description). Seeking for action on their screen. They dont care about settings or roleplaying, perhaps they dont even know about it, and for a moment they spoil my fun trying to roleplay - then I usually just set them on ignore (temporary, like I do most of the time).
I try to level up my char for backing up claims, and meanwhile I tend to duel instead of text-fighting. In fact this can be arranged well with roleplaying.
What I cant see is, why is a PvP-area required at all, if people are meant to have fun and play in agreement _with_ each other. People play their chars roles, they want them to fight each other, so they do. PvP-areas are for attacking others without them having the chance to agree or disagree. If people would stick to the idea of a roleplaying game, why was there a system that allows to act against other people's will? To me this is merely an action-feature to attract people not caring about roleplaying.
Point is, PlaneShift is a game either for roleplayers _and_ for "headshot-people", everyone is welcomed equally. PlaneShift is _not_ a real roleplaying game. I for one am not pleased about this at all expecting a roleplaying game, and I think its a shame, since I am convinced it drives away roleplayers, but at the end I cant but have to live with it.
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i reckon people should know what to expect and learn to work out if they have a chance or not O--)
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Yes I agree the system needs work. That was not the point of what I said. There will be abuses and those abuses need to be dealt with. Whether it is abusing PvP, or GM shopping, for one that is friendly to your cause, or whatever. If you are going to call PvP a failure because of problems and glitches and abuse then lets forget trying to work out this system all together and just cancel Plane Shift.
OR maybe we can work together to find a solution, like we have been trying to do on the rest of the game.
Maybe warnings to Newbs. Maybe better marked "safe paths" with guards. Maybe better signage for the area. (I admit I don't usually look at the signs)
I for one do not like to have a 5 hour planning session for a few minutes of game time. I don't want to sit around trying to contact everyone that may be involved in an incident and plan it ahead of time. I would rather just get into the game and see what develops. Kind of like RL. And without PvP areas that becomes more difficult.
Lets talk about ways to fix this rather than give up.
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If you are going to call PvP a failure because of problems and glitches and abuse then lets forget trying to work out this system all together and just cancel Plane Shift.
Sounds almost like implying PlaneShift's core concept was PvPing.
I for one do not like to have a 5 hour planning session for a few minutes of game time. I don't want to sit around trying to contact everyone that may be involved in an incident and plan it ahead of time. I would rather just get into the game and see what develops. Kind of like RL. And without PvP areas that becomes more difficult.
To me this assertion flaws. On one hand, gathering trias, PP and the training itself takes at least as much time as summed up "planning sessions".
Furthermore, you really are seriously telling having a vague idea about what are you going to do with your char ingame within in the next few minutes takes you several of hours?
No one says roleplaying requires some strict plan to follow. Some do because they like it to set up plans, and some just go all spontaneous according to their chars, without giving many thoughts on whats up next.
Since this subject is based on that ancient conflict "PLers - RPers", why not going for a trade-off such as moving the PvP-zone a bit off the Camp, since it seems obvious that duellers render that place, which was meant to have a Settings-purpose, useless. That way duellers can have their fun fighting each other and bring the mechanics to its limits, while still are close to that "outlawish environment", and the same time roleplayers could immerse into the Setting.
At least until the fighting system got improved.
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Furthermore, you really are seriously telling having a vague idea about what are you going to do with your char ingame within in the next few minutes takes you several of hours?
No one says roleplaying requires some strict plan to follow. Some do because they like it to set up plans, and some just go all spontaneous according to their chars, without giving many thoughts on whats up next.
What I am saying is not like going to sit in a tavern to RP but a larger event. Something like the caravan robbery mentioned in another thread. I have spent several hours trying to get people together for an event and ran out of time before I could organize it. Another example is the work Mouli (kudos to him for the work he is putting into it) is putting into the tournament. hours of hashing out rules and making a chart that has to be updated all for 19 30 second fights to see who is best fighter. A lot of work for 10 minutes and trying to get 20 people together.
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Since this subject is based on that ancient conflict "PLers - RPers", why not going for a trade-off such as moving the PvP-zone a bit off the Camp, since it seems obvious that duellers render that place, which was meant to have a Settings-purpose, useless. That way duellers can have their fun fighting each other and bring the mechanics to its limits, while still are close to that "outlawish environment", and the same time roleplayers could immerse into the Setting.
At least until the fighting system got improved.
Ok. You kind of caught me there. I started Plane Shift as my first computer based RP game not sure what to expect. I did a bunch of RP at first and decided I would not RP something my char. is not capable of doing, so I began to level. In that way I found out that leveling can also be fun. At least some of the time.
I agree that we should be trying to improve the game and would support moving the PvP area if it could help. A suggestion for that and IC reason would be if there is a "Rogue training area" somewhere near the camp marked out with stakes or lines or something making a small arena area that that lawless could use without going through the city. I am not against Improving the game and helping players, I am against throwing out an idea that has implications for the roleplay and economy of the game.
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Pvp area is a good idea, as more life realistic. may be it could be extended to other places time to time, randomly. But in that case, players have to be informed by a different ground colour, message, stats indications.
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I think there was (almost) no OOC harassment in the PvP area in the arena. No roleplayer dares to go there and has no reason at all, because it is clear what to expect. I once tried to rolpleay a robbing in this area. This was very stressful because I had to prepare to be killed within seconds while I was typing. On the other side, there was a roleplay background for camp banished, which attracted roleplayers. This lead to the confrontation of OOC players (attracted by the mere fact that they can kill others) and roleplayers (attracted by the possibility to roleplay their evil characters).
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I think there was (almost) no OOC harassment in the PvP area in the arena. No roleplayer dares to go there and has no reason at all, because it is clear what to expect.
You make a most excellent argument for taking PvP out of the game.
I once tried to rolpleay a robbing in this area. This was very stressful because I had to prepare to be killed within seconds while I was typing.
Hotkey your dialogue.
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WHAT?!?!?! No snorks!?!?!?
I did not read the 4 pages of what I can only assume are flames based on the couple of responses I did read. With that said, I see no problem with a couple of PVP areas in the game. The arena has been very difficult to get to/from lately with the map bugs. Also, this is a ROGUE camp... if you aren't able to defend yourself, don't walk into a den of thieves. Seriously... RP or no RP why would your character go there if they aren't looking for trouble?
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Also, this is a ROGUE camp... if you aren't able to defend yourself, don't walk into a den of thieves. Seriously... RP or no RP why would your character go there if they aren't looking for trouble?
If I want to roleplay, I wont log into Unreal Tournament.
If you would have read some of the posts your post might have looked different. Rogues, right. Rogues that kill each other several times a day, and always come back after <1hour ingame time. And the same rogues that walk through Hydlaa as if they were most honorable citizens.
If you claim to play such a most outlawish and dirty rogue, but the same time you ignore any other Setting, like being friends with Guards (since you take their training), you might want to reconsider how valid is your roleplay.
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Actually, I think the rogue camp should be a very safe. To be sent there, you'd have to get caught. So logically, only the rogues who are bad at what they do spend time there. The ones with talent (ie the ones who are actually dangerous) never get caught, and walk among normal citizens.
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I have read on the forums that the "rogue camp" is a mobile place as far as settings is concerned. They don't move it simply because of the real world time involved with that effort. The rogue camp is not for incompetent rogues, but for those that are skillful enough not to get caught.
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They don't move it simply because of the real world time involved with that effort.
no they dont move it as it is currently part of the map and not items they have dropped. so unless they have talad remake the map and push it via the updater they cant move it currently.
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Actually, I think the rogue camp should be a very safe. To be sent there, you'd have to get caught. So logically, only the rogues who are bad at what they do spend time there. The ones with talent (ie the ones who are actually dangerous) never get caught, and walk among normal citizens.
Thats totally just your opinion not the true end all fact you know :P
You could just as easily be a well known 'wanted' rogue and hang around the rogue camp and be just as good as any of those rogues who act as normal citizens. The difference would be merely getting caught on purpose because of some devious plot you've thought of in which everyone knowing your evil was apart of the point.
As for my opinion on the topic itself I voted yes, basically because from the things I've heard about the Bandit Camp there is no role-play whatsoever. In my opinion a better way to set things up would be to have the players set their own rules. An agreement between those occupying the Rogue camp and those who enter it. Those who inhabit the camp have to agree to begin with some sort of initial role-playing out of attacking/thieving. Those who enter have to agree that after this 'rp intro' is done the attack can take place and they have to allow themselves to be attacked PvP.
I know, I doubt there is much chance that most people will accept such an agreement but players trying to help make pvp and rp work together will really be the basis for them actually working together. :P
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Whatever the devs decide to do will be ok, as long as it's consistent and fun. I think that's all the players really want.
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I think it is a misunderstanding the the rogue camp is a place you get sent. I do not get the sense that it is a gulag or prison camp, just an ad hoc gathering place for people who have been banished and their associates. A very accomplished criminal might hang out there just for its large supply of unfortunate patsies that can be made to take the fall for them.
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The PVP area must be removed. Or any quest relevant NPC must be moved outside the area.
Today I helped Cadwen to deliver a "Keg of beer for Filch" because he alone was too weak. I dropped the keg there - and we got killed.
What if the keg was stolen then? Would the quest for Cadwen be ruined forever? No player would dare to enter a PvP area for a quest, we all know how risky any kind of break in a quest is.
I did not even know that "Camp Banished" is a PvP area at all. I got no clear, unmistakable warning. I always took the camp only for a roleplaying incentive. The waysigns warning to "enter at your own peril" are by far no clear warning ... Instead, I would expect a system message, similar to locking and unlocking a door lock, while entering or leaving a PvP area.
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My character was inside for quite some time. And he was fine. You need to arrange yourself with the inhabitants.
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If I knew I had to, I would have.
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I think we're talking about this the wrong way. The PVP area was added because people like to kill other players, right?
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People complain when I kill them at the dlayo pit, so if that says anything...
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People complain when I kill them at the dlayo pit, so if that says anything...
Yeah. When the PVP area was introduced in the arena, people would often be upset when I killed them. It wasn't fun.
Really, I think that if we're going to have a PVP area, it needs to be empty of anything that would give anyone a reason to be there.
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In my eyes, the pvp areas give us the chance to kill each other, no need of it. It opens more possibilities of roleplay. However, some people may abuse them to kill others constantly, but a bottle of maturity allows you to arrange yourself with these.
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The line of thinking that suggests that because there is content within the pvp area there should be no pvp is bunk.
Nothing compels you to seek that content other than your own will.
You are aware the area is inhabited by brigands, there are nice visual cues (such as masked men) that indicate it isn't occupied by law abiding citizens. If you go into any such area anywhere in the universe, you do so at your own peril.
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In my eyes, the pvp areas give us the chance to kill each other, no need of it. It opens more possibilities of roleplay. However, some people may abuse them to kill others constantly, but a bottle of maturity allows you to arrange yourself with these.
But we always have the chance to kill each other. Anyone can set their challenge settings to auto-accept. And you can challenge anyone at any time (although you'll get in trouble if you spam). The PVP areas are fun because they turn PlaneShift into an action game, but roleplaying in PlaneShift already has access to PVP... just not open PvP.
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Nothing compels you to seek that content other than your own will.
What does this mean? Quests are fun, and they often provide things like glyphs, equipment, and storyline that can't be obtained any other way.... I mean, you could say that nothing compels us to play PlaneShift other than our own will. I'm misunderstanding something.
You are aware the area is inhabited by brigands, there are nice visual cues (such as masked men) that indicate it isn't occupied by law abiding citizens. If you go into any such area anywhere in the universe, you do so at your own peril.
Well, there are rogues in the halls of the arena, and there are bandits along OjaRoad... and there are large areas of space where there are no guards, and the alleys between buildings in Hydlaa aren't exactly safe either.
Really, the PvP area was added because someone somewhere thought it would be a good idea.
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I think what XilliX is saying is that its your own will that wants to do the quests in that area or involve you going into that area.
A character you may roleplay would not even dare go there to look for quests or if they find it involves them going there quit the quest.
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I think what XilliX is saying is that its your own will that wants to do the quests in that area or involve you going into that area.
Well yeah... that's why I think PvP areas shouldn't have stuff in them, so people don't end up there unless they want PvP. ???
A character you may roleplay would not even dare go there to look for quests or if they find it involves them going there quit the quest.
Well, yes and no. Because there's danger everywhere. Really, in terms of IC, you can be attacked at any time, anywhere. Even right in front of a guard.
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well if you are going to have a PvP area with nothing in it, might as well make a map which contains 1 green field and thats it.
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Well, yes and no. Because there's danger everywhere. Really, in terms of IC, you can be attacked at any time, anywhere. Even right in front of a guard.
Obviously. The point is that the change of being attacked or mugged is very more higher in a rogue camp than in front of a guard. So any citizen who does not want to get mugged or murdered, would not enter a rogue camp. It makes sense.
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well if you are going to have a PvP area with nothing in it, might as well make a map which contains 1 green field and thats it.
That sounds perfect!
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Well, yes and no. Because there's danger everywhere. Really, in terms of IC, you can be attacked at any time, anywhere. Even right in front of a guard.
Obviously. The point is that the change of being attacked or mugged is very more higher in a rogue camp than in front of a guard. So any citizen who does not want to get mugged or murdered, would not enter a rogue camp. It makes sense.
Well it wouldn't be any citizen, since everyone is a citizen. It would be citizens who can't defend themselves, who are street wise, and who aren't themselves criminals.
I guess if you want to keep people away from the rogue camp unless they're very strong, then that's a good justification for PvP. It's kind of an artificial way to make places dangerous, but it works. Is that why the PvP was turned on there? I just assumed you made it a PvP area because some people enjoy killing other players.
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I guess some people wonder if we are ready to have quests mixed with PvP areas since the questing system can be easily disrupted. Getting killed in a key moment by someone else with no warning can botch a quest. Merchants are one thing but quests can be a more sensitive subject. Something to think about...
@Zanzi: Have you been away that long you forgot about the Modify post button??? No doubleposting!
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I guess some people wonder if we are ready to have quests mixed with PvP areas since the questing system can be easily disrupted. Getting killed in a key moment by someone else with no warning can botch a quest. Merchants are one thing but quests can be a more sensitive subject. Something to think about...
Hmm. Maybe this can be defended in the name of realism? Let's say that a merchant wants to give you a quest delivering some delicate item to another city. Mid-sentence, an arrow goes through your skull. Would the merchant still offer you the quest, given that you seem to have bad luck? At the very least, the merchant might give the job to someone else who's there, and so by the time you get back from the death realm the merchant no longer requires your services.
Of course the problem with that is that it wouldn't be fun!
@Zanzi: Have you been away that long you forgot about the Modify post button??? No doubleposting!
:( Sorry! I forgot about that rule here.
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It is really very simple. This is a ROGUE camp. ONLY people who are unlawful go there. Quest at your own peril. Enter at your own peril.
You mention that you CAN duel anywhere... but that is complete BS in reality. It is possible, only if someone is willing to allow you to do so. "Hi, my name is The Dread Pirate Roberts, I'm going to rob you now. Is that ok?"... "Um, I'm sorry, but I cannot allow you to do that right now. My RP doesn't allow for such interruptions right now".
This particular PvP area was set up in a place that no self-respecting, law abiding citizen will EVER go. Sure, there might be the greatest quest rewards there. However, when was the last time you bought a pool table off the back of a truck at a highway off ramp?
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We aren't talking about unlawful though. We're talking about being a good fighter. There are plenty of lawful characters who are excellent fighters. There are plenty of criminal characters who can't fight worth anything.
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And a lawful fighter isn't going to be trying to run errands for a bunch of thieves. And a thief who can't defend him/herself very well... shouldn't walk into a den of thieves...
I'm sorry, but I don't see why this area just shouldn't be left as-is. Nothing says you HAVE to do the quests offered here... and if you WANT to do them, the risk is there that you will have to visit the DR a few times to complete it. The whole place just screams "beware"... I think people take too many liberties because they don't have to fear attack. Dark alley's in Hydlaa for instance... but that is another topic altogether.
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Listen, all I'm saying is that the PvP areas were introduced because someone thought they would be fun for at least some of the players. Realism really has little to do with it or else we'd have open PvP in all but around 10% of the game world.
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Please edit your original post instead of having double posts.
I won't be removing the quests from the pvp area. I thank you for your input on the matter and hope your gaming experience improves as time wears on.
This poll has satisfied the goals it was intended to meet.