PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vakachehk on April 03, 2010, 08:38:19 am
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Well PP is one of the most annoyances about training and no other game has it (that I know of). Should it get removed?
The reason why I wanted to start this conversation is that I was helping out a noob to get some PP and... 1 hour to get enough to go from level 5-6 sword!!!! by then we had found a solution Diseased Rats, I had to stand there constantly healing him. I thought you had a good idea/system going so that it will be equal for noobs, Intermediates and experienced? well I'm sorry but no you haven't 1 hour is not good enough. It takes me 1 hour to get enough for at less 5 levels of Heavy Armor.
Well its a discussion not an argument please put your thoughts.
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Removing PP is one thing. But what would you propose instead to measure experience, training and things related to that?
Greetings,
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Well, now one needs progressive points and practice points to improve skills. How about leaving only practice points?
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Well, now one needs progressive points and practice points to improve skills. How about leaving only practice points?
Well then learning new skills would be very cheap indeed. The system right now is very nice IMHO. First you go to a trainer npc who teaches you the theory of a certain skill (like sword making). He doesn't want to do this for nothing so you pay him some money and some progression points. After that you practice.
I think it is a nice system and do not see a reason to change it.
Greetings,
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Im also a friend of the theory and then practice- training. That doesn't mean, that there have to be pps and that there is no other possible way to realize it, but I don't know of another ;)
Sen
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The most paradox detail is that stats are only theory-based; instead they should be only practice-based, regarding credibility. ;)
But well ... this has been discussed already so many times. I still remember how UndertheMoon suggested a complex system based on different psychogical and psysiological systems. Already years ago.
I believe this thread will soon be closed due to already existing wishlist threads.
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What do the npcs do with the progression points you pay them and how come I can't trade them to another player for tria if they are transferable?
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actually I think the opposite would fit far better - the PP are a great thing to stop grinders in their "tracks" - this is an RP, so...
what I would like to drop is the sometimes outright insane pricing for training, as in comparison too few tria get "dropped/looted/earned in quests... so either lower training prices, or raise "income"...
the theory/practice system is something that IMHO makes PS stand out; one could, if at all, maximally argue which skills are theory/practice to which part, but most I see so far seem to be classified "correctly" here.
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I like the combo of PP and tria and practice points. I'm in no hurry to max out my skills, it should take a long time to build those skills from an RP stand point. As a player, I like the more laid back style of leveling. So many people come into this game wanting to be like all the others. That is exactly why I play PS on the laanx server: adds to the realism that a young character would not be a master of lots of things, maybe one or two. Also, the experienced RPers use the levels to gauge their power/experience with the skill to help guide the RP.
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This is where pp breaks reality:
I'm training sword, I get theo training and I practice everything.
I go to the trainer and he says "no son, you need some more rel life experience."
I say "Alas, I shall go baketh some fine pies. Surely you shall thinketh of me as worthy of another lesson !"
I come back after practicing cooking and somehow the sword trainer now feels that I'm experienced enough for another lesson.
I know, I'm making fun of this a little, but what is experience/pp supposed to represent ?
Irl we can sometimes apply lessons from one arena of life to another, but I don't think that pp represents this very well.
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This is where pp breaks reality:
I'm training sword, I get theo training and I practice everything.
I go to the trainer and he says "no son, you need some more rel life experience."
I say "Alas, I shall go baketh some fine pies. Surely you shall thinketh of me as worthy of another lesson !"
I come back after practicing cooking and somehow the sword trainer now feels that I'm experienced enough for another lesson.
I know, I'm making fun of this a little, but what is experience/pp supposed to represent ?
Irl we can sometimes apply lessons from one arena of life to another, but I don't think that pp represents this very well.
I don't understand your analogy. It seems perfectly fine to me as it is now. Why would a trainer train you a further point if you did not practice enough for your current skill level?
Greetings,
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I know, I'm making fun of this a little, but what is experience/pp supposed to represent ?
I think pp represents "progression points", a theoretical system in which - in a game - you can advance in level through the concept of experience.
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This is where pp breaks reality:
I'm training sword, I get theo training and I practice everything.
I go to the trainer and he says "no son, you need some more rel life experience."
I say "Alas, I shall go baketh some fine pies. Surely you shall thinketh of me as worthy of another lesson !"
I come back after practicing cooking and somehow the sword trainer now feels that I'm experienced enough for another lesson.
I know, I'm making fun of this a little, but what is experience/pp supposed to represent ?
Irl we can sometimes apply lessons from one arena of life to another, but I don't think that pp represents this very well.
I don't understand your analogy. It seems perfectly fine to me as it is now. Why would a trainer train you a further point if you did not practice enough for your current skill level?
Greetings,
His point (or at least my interpretation of it) is that PP is *required* for training any skill/stat. However, you don't need to get that PP by fighting with swords to get more trraining in fighting with swords. You can as well shred some bread™. You still get the same swordfighting training.
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No, you buy training ( knowledge )
You train, physically bashing stuff until the bar fills up.
It make sense up this this point.
I should now be ready for my next lesson, right ?
If I do not have enough progression points at this point, then I cannot progress.
But I already practiced with the sword mastering the last lesson. Why should I need more progression points ?
This does not make sense to me.
What does a progression point ( or experience for that matter ) represent ?
If I go do something unrelated, like melt some ore (getting pp) then why should that make me ready for the next lesson ?
it would make more sense if you got theoretical training first ( as we currently do)
Then go physically train until the bar is filled (as we currently do )
At this point one should be ready for more theoretical training.
If you have an overage of pp as I do then you would not notice this at all.
But if you have less pp than needed, it becomes noticable.
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I believe in theory the number of PPs you earn while gaining your practice in a skill should be enough to cover the cost of the next level of training in that skill. So by the time you have killed enough things with your sword to be ready for the next level of sword training you should have gotten enough PPs will using your sword to cover the cost in Pps of that next level of sword training.
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Yes Sarva, that's exactly what I'm saying. If that is the case, then why bother having progression points for that matter since they would never be a factor ?
The problem is that you do not always get enough progression points to cover the next lesson.
Unless progression points/experience represents something concrete and tangible I would say why bother with it ?
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This is where pp breaks reality:
I'm training sword, I get theo training and I practice everything.
I go to the trainer and he says "no son, you need some more rel life experience."
I say "Alas, I shall go baketh some fine pies. Surely you shall thinketh of me as worthy of another lesson !"
I come back after practicing cooking and somehow the sword trainer now feels that I'm experienced enough for another lesson.
I know, I'm making fun of this a little, but what is experience/pp supposed to represent ?
Irl we can sometimes apply lessons from one arena of life to another, but I don't think that pp represents this very well.
What? Don't you swat flies while cooking? Insects have been getting rather big recently, so having a sword ready to kill the bugs is pretty much a must these days.
Back to topic: Why does it have to be hyper realistic? The point of the training system is not to be as real world as possible, but to cap progress so you don't waltz around in heavy armor, wielding magically enhanced battle axes after five minutes of Gameplay.
The real problem, I see with the PP system is that it does not take long time players into account (or takes them into account too much). Some people stick around for years and in order for them not to accumulate too much power (which they'll do eventually anyway), maxing chars out is/has become a tremendous effort. The only thing that has so far always been done to stop imminent godhood has been to raise the bar as needed. Of course, thats no final solution and obviously puts new players at a disadvantage (just look at how some of them struggle to kill a mere rat).
If the system was ever changed, I'd suggest using a focus based one. That is, you make decision about what type of character you want to be (crafter, mage, fighter, c(r)ook, ...) and find yourself gaining skills in the associated disciplines rather fast. However, changing your focus (by choice or through inaction), would net you dwindling skill. For example, consider a new player who wants to start a fighting career. After killing a couple of rats, his skills should be sufficient to move on to bigger beasts. Being able to kill ulbernauts should be a matter of being able to kill a dozen tefusangs first. However, that player might decide, after coming across a couple of glyphs that magic is a far more interesting (and cleaner!) way to send things to Dakkru, so instead of hacking and slashing, he starts to zap things, only to find that after another week of playing this style, his character is completely out of training with blades and has trouble with killing trepors in non magical ways again.
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Soo...? I now can RP with PP Jorrit? ??? PP doesn't sound real to me.
@bilbous I agree.
Shoraal I do agree that PP should be upped not so much tria though.
Honestly if they never changed PP since 0.5 I would not of posted this topic, I do like the new idea but it has had issues and it seems they are not getting ironed out, we have had that new system for nearly 5 months now that is close to half a year. Noobs need to get around 15-20 from a Diseased Rat about 2-3 from a normal Rat, those Forest things 3-5. the noob I was helping was getting beaten by that Forest thing I had to keep healing him, and also the same with a Diseased Rat.
Now on topic. Removing PP will make there be a lot more PLers, so what you have got to do is keep policing them and moving them to EZPCUSA to those who even say that they don't like to RP while on the Laanx server. I know of one that has said so on Gossip.
I also think if PP gets removed that it is actually still there for Stats only since they don't have any Practice Points, Unless something gets implemented.
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well that holds true for physical combat, but what about magic and armor training. Experience is awarded for casting defensive spells and using armor, but there is no PP awarded for casting defensive spells or getting hit because nothing was killed [or produced in the case of crafting].
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I think that the only things that should cost pp are weapons and magic, cooking, and mining. Those are the only things you get pp for using, so those are the only things that should require pp when training.
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Except for the PPs you get for smelting, crafting weapons, crafting shields, repairing armor and repairing weapons
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Well, now one needs progressive points and practice points to improve skills. How about leaving only practice points?
Well then learning new skills would be very cheap indeed. The system right now is very nice IMHO. First you go to a trainer npc who teaches you the theory of a certain skill (like sword making). He doesn't want to do this for nothing so you pay him some money and some progression points. After that you practice.
I think it is a nice system and do not see a reason to change it.
Greetings,
Progression Points are imaginary. They do not actually exist in the game. It is not even mentioned anywhere in or out of the game what they are supposed to represent. Yet here you are, cutting them off of creatures, digging them out of dirt, and picking them out of the crumbs of your freshly baked bread. On top of that, NPCs demand these imaginary 'currency' and a ton of true money in order to pay for the privilege of going out and learning stuff on your own. Unless you count the millisecond between giving them your cash and getting permission to train as 'teaching you the theory' of the skill.
Why are they even needed at all? You could just pay for 'theory' with real money. You go train with what you were told (whatever that is in a millisecond). You learn everything your teacher told you (via maxing out the green/blue/yellow/whatever bar). You go back and say "Master, I have learned all that you have taught me. I am ready for the next lesson." He tells you to fork over more cash for the next lesson. Ba da bing, done.
The only issue with getting rid of PP is that you can pay for things like strength outright without ever having to train them, so you could buy a max level in one day with enough money. That is a flaw in the system, and PP are the flawed plug to fill that hole. PP over-complicate what should be a rather simple system with redundant and useless points that are completely un-roleplayable.
I don't see how in the world getting rid of PP would make more PLers when you HAVE to grind to get them. 'Getting' things is why powerlevelers do what they do. They are something that encourages PLing.
Ok, you want to slow down PLers? Don't do it with artificial and imaginary points that the roleplayers can't even use. Make a simple solution.... wait for it....
Slow training down by limiting how much you can train in a day.
"You can not train anymore today, your body/mind is exhausted."
Seems like a real no-brainer for a game based on rolepaying.
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PP need to go. They don't make sense looking at the game from an "inside out" view, as Rigwyn and UtM have pointed out. What should happen is that a) theory and practice are swapped for stats, this solves people being able to PL stats in 1 day (i.e. stats are all practice and no theory, instead of all theory and no practice) and b) the Training costs be per-lesson as opposed to per-PP, and rebalanced accordingly. Also, people forget that it makes IC sense to grind in some cases (Kaerli, for instance: I don't train her OOCly near as much as she trains ICly).
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No, you buy training ( knowledge )
You train, physically bashing stuff until the bar fills up.
It make sense up this this point.
I should now be ready for my next lesson, right ?
If I do not have enough progression points at this point, then I cannot progress.
But I already practiced with the sword mastering the last lesson. Why should I need more progression points ?
This does not make sense to me.
What does a progression point ( or experience for that matter ) represent ?
If I go do something unrelated, like melt some ore (getting pp) then why should that make me ready for the next lesson ?
it would make more sense if you got theoretical training first ( as we currently do)
Then go physically train until the bar is filled (as we currently do )
At this point one should be ready for more theoretical training.
If you have an overage of pp as I do then you would not notice this at all.
But if you have less pp than needed, it becomes noticable.
if the game went along with what this is implying, then there would have to be a sperate catagory of pp for each and every type of skill, hich would make things even harder then they already are....
i prefer the way it is now, the only reason this whole discussion got brought up at all is becuase of how flawd the pp gaining system currently is, it will get better soon im sure so i just say wait it out...
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well that holds true for physical combat, but what about magic and armor training. Experience is awarded for casting defensive spells and using armor, but there is no PP awarded for casting defensive spells or getting hit because nothing was killed [or produced in the case of crafting].
except that's not playing the game as intended: flodding magic and sitting being hit while doing something else is exactly how the game isn't intended to be played :)
waiting in a game is stupid imho
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imho
whats an imho -_-
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under the moon pointed out something i've said many times over that no one else seems to understand. it's the hard time training--the pp problem--that causes powerlevelling. making it harder to level is actually worse for roleplaying. and i'm pretty sure the developers made it harder to level to keep people roleplaying. it just doesn't work out that way.
pp sucks
earowo, imho = in my honest opinion. look it up next time. :p
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if the game went along with what this is implying, then there would have to be a sperate catagory of pp for each and every type of skill, hich would make things even harder then they already are....
i prefer the way it is now, the only reason this whole discussion got brought up at all is becuase of how flawd the pp gaining system currently is, it will get better soon im sure so i just say wait it out...
No there is no need for separate categories.
As explained, you already fill each bar by practicing; these are your specialised progress bars. PP are redundant for skills.
All PPs are useful for is Stats training. So getting rid of PPs means designing a solution for Stats progression. That's where ideas are welcome in this thread, to add to the ones that were already given.
No much time to think about it, but I'd see some automatic progression of Stats according to Skills, personally. Or to activities, if that doesn't become too complicate. I'd get rid of the muscle and brain teachers.
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I'd get rid of the muscle and brain teachers.
Yeah, that's another bad thing imho: strength is practically increased by TALKING? :o
-> keep spamming the gossip channel, that way you will soon be able to wear platinum armor ;)
I would have guessed strength increases while doing physically hard work.
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I believe in theory the number of PPs you earn while gaining your practice in a skill should be enough to cover the cost of the next level of training in that skill. So by the time you have killed enough things with your sword to be ready for the next level of sword training you should have gotten enough PPs will using your sword to cover the cost in Pps of that next level of sword training.
well that holds true for physical combat, but what about magic and armor training. Experience is awarded for casting defensive spells and using armor, but there is no PP awarded for casting defensive spells or getting hit because nothing was killed [or produced in the case of crafting].
except that's not playing the game as intended: flodding magic and sitting being hit while doing something else is exactly how the game isn't intended to be played :)
waiting in a game is stupid imho
@ weltall: hmmm, my thought process was going a different way, but I see where you are coming from, I think. So, your thought supports the use of PP. IF someone stands and grinds defensive spells (or armor) and get their practice points up to the next level, then that does not automatically mean they can train [as Sarva suggested with her sword example]. They would also need to have the PP and the tria to receive more training. So basically the PP is just one more game mechanic the player needs to consider when deciding how to develop their character.
For those that are confused by needing PP to train stats [not skills]. If you have a good idea of how to emulate progressive physical training, academic tests, and common sense in the game feel free to put it in the wish list. Until then, availability of PP is the gauge for improving your characters' strength, intelligence, wisdom, etc. OMG! that once again means you have to make decisions about how to develop your character at low levels.
All long time players of any game are going to be high levels and have multiple skills, it is unavoidable, so stop blaming the PP system!!
I've never had a problem with the PP system. The devs have developed a three prong system for players to negotiate leveling their characters. Players can deal with it or find another game. IMHO, my character is at medium level of development, the refactoring of mob PP has leveled out nicely. I've played for 1.5 years now and do not feel inferior that I don't have any skills maxed. So stop worrying about whether PP limits how fast you can level your skills. Enjoy the pursuit of excellence. It's a GAME, I have come to realize who cares if PP has a comparison in reality.
A note for RPers on Laanx: If you have earned all the PP to be able to max the skill levels you can dream of, then remember to not play an all powerful character that never makes mistakes. It is a buzz kill and an event killer when someone whines, "but my skill is maxed, you can't...."
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Back a while ago I started a new character just to see how hard it is to start a character from scratch. I had the extra handicap of having my new character skip the tutorial so I had no trias, no Pps and no items to start out with. I am not giving this character any help from any of my other characters.
Before the most recent adjustment to PPs I was getting almost nothing from fighting. I was getting lots of Pps from a certain craft. Grind fighting or crafting doesn't really make much difference to me. My bigger problem is getting the trias I need to pay for training. Now after the most recent Pp adjustment I am getting more Pps from fighting but I can still get a lot of Pps from practicing certain crafts. I am finding I need to make judgements about what skills and stats I want to train since I don't have enough trias or PPs to just train everything I might want to. This isn't a bad thing though since it is making me think more about what type of character I want to have and think about what skills/stats this character would work on to further their goals.
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[...] for a game based on rolepaying.
XD
Sorry, that one made me laugh.
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estripus, you say people should just deal with it or leave? well, i guess that's why the player base is so tiny!
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lol first time I've agreed with Sarras I do blame PP for the lack of players. SOOO! this is under beta/alpha (get confused between them) testing so take it out see what happens with the player community and if it increases with players (role players) then keep it out. But if it doesn't and we get a lot more PLers then change it back. But you will have to try it out for about a year, because if you try it for 1-6 months everyone will be PLing to get to where they want.
Also I want a few characters to begin running some guilds to fix certain things in PS. I cant just have someone who is weak and dumb to run a guild can I?
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A note for RPers on Laanx: If you have earned all the PP to be able to max the skill levels you can dream of, then remember to not play an all powerful character that never makes mistakes. It is a buzz kill and an event killer when someone whines, "but my skill is maxed, you can't...."
On Kaerli, I have racked up nearly 35k PP. Guess what? Kaerli will probably never spend all her PP! This is due to her limited income; I strongly suspect it is true for most characters (besides ones that are still rolling in dough from the last plat rush, ofc). Honestly, I play Kaerli's swordplay well below where it should be (I reckon her final Sword skill will end up in the 150-175 range), and she still turns out to be quite an overpowering fighter. She isn't all powerful though: 90 CHA is a pretty strong counterbalance on the stats side, and she doesn't craft for much of anything either.
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You really think removing pp would affect the playerbase ?
No, people won't come back because of pp.
People left en masse because of trouble with the upgrade - period.
The last time I remember people leaving like this was a year or two ago when the server was down for over a week.
After a week or so of not playing, the "planeshift addiction" wears off, you become out of tough with
The game, and then quitting for good isn't such a big deal.
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This is a hypothetical conversation of a what could be said by a trainer [percival was chosen at random] to justify the lack of PP for a skill. This was one thought that can be easily adapted for any skill trainer. PP can be justified as the exploration and experimentation of how to apply and combine the 'new knowledge' with the 'old knowledge'. The practice points are practicing the specific latest technique.
Sarrel: Percival, I finished my sword practice, can you give me the next lesson please?
* Sarrel hands Percival sufficient coin to cover the lesson
Percival: No, you cannot have the next lesson.
Sarrel: But I finished my practice and I have enough Tria to pay for the lesson!
[00:01] <HTT-Bird> Emmara look at it from a "character's eye view"...also, try coming up with something for Percival to say next :)
[00:06] <Emmara> *thinking* ok got a response to justify PP.
Percival: You have shown me your dedication to your physical ability, but I don't believe you understand the philosophy behind the techniques. If you do not understand the philosophy behind the techniques then you will not understand how to combine them with my next lesson to continue your path to be a true warrior.
FYI: I still have no issues with the PP system, but since everyone is calling for a 'realistic' justification for a fantasy game's mechanics.
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(I reckon her final Sword skill will end up in the 150-175 range),
good luck with that one, sword maxes at 100
you wont get to that goal unless your a gm or dev XD
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How should kaerli's final sword skill be in the 150-175 range ?
What the hell is this ? LOL ?
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Actually Sarva' last post sums it up nicely... after NPC-revamp and crafting etc. re-pricing PP wise, I think it is fairly easy to get the required PP... the tria is far more the problem, as if you play IC RP-wise correctly, some concepts will have a hell of trouble getting that... and it can't be "desired" that everybody learns mining/crafting "just because".
I guess the prices of the "older" loot items need to be raised drastically - such as tefu or ulber parts, e.g. (the parts of the newer critters are priced more or less right I'd say, such as Arangma parts).
I might make that a feature request...
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How should kaerli's final sword skill be in the 150-175 range ?
What the hell is this ? LOL ?
You've just been pwned by Kaerli's little finger. :o
(http://www.lohl.net/image.php?id=114)
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Lolitra settles down to give her meagre tuppenth's worth of an idea.
Where as I think the current system is actually rather good; you get experience for individual skills as you use them and PP for each successful out-come of its use dependant on how difficult it was for your character to do... [i.e. if you are low skilled you get more pp for success in a low level skill use - than if you are high level skilled and use the same low level skill]
So then you can progress to the next level by getting a trainer at a cost, to teach you what you must do for the next level. This cost being Tria and PP.
I like the fact that PP can be used for different skills - but Experience Points [EP] cannot. PP represent your confidence, learning ability and adeptness at retaining new information in my oppinion so, yes, why can't learning new cooking techniques help with sword-play? It may be that as you contemplate the finer details of baking your mind suddenly realises what you are doing wrong with your sword training...
That said, I would love to see the following way of cause and effect in training and fighting etc.
Stats would limit how fast you understand or progress in relevant skills... and injuries to the head or physical would effect how your skills are executed [possibly already happens - but I am not sure].
To improve intelligence - reading books - and magic would enable intelligence to grow...
To improve Strength - physical skills and moving with heavy loads/encombered would help...
I would like to see each skill having different methods of doing things not unlike like 'spells' for each level for instance in sword skill, swing, thrust, parry, etc and then as you go up level you can learn from the teachers to 'combine them to form quicker and more effective moves... This would make PvP far more intuative and fun and also give a more realistic balance to it rather than relying on just stats and chance.
I would also like to see player characters able to obtain a teaching skill - that enables you to teach up to half your level in skill in skills - and to stop it being abused, to teach you must pay tax to the Octarchy for each pupil you train... so there is a base price you have to pay [perhaps a little less than than the NPC's] so the only advantage would be being able to find your trainer or have them travel with you?
Another thing I would like to see is the ability to learn off of NPC's you defeat extra 'spells' or 'skill moves' if you defeat them in battle - depending on how intellegent you are.
there... what do you think?
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I play Kaerli's swordplay well below where it should be (I reckon her final Sword skill will end up in the 150-175 range), and she still turns out to be quite an overpowering fighter.
No offense, but when you godmod like this the rp turns into something like this and people no longer want to play with you because its not much fun - even if you play weak alts so that people can defeat them... ::)
Bill: [You cant possibly kill me because I have armor made by Laanx herself.]
Sally: [Are you on crack ? There's no such thing]
Bill: [Ok, dont worry about the armor .. lets continue]
Sally swings a sword at Bill's head
Bill ducks and swings at Sally's left side with a claymore, right side with a battle axe, and kicks at Sally at the same time with a boot that has 3 inch steel spikes on the bottom.
Sally: [ come on, this is getting stupid. are we 6 years old or something ? ]
Bill: [ Bill always wears spiked boot for extra traction, and he is ambidextrous. Oh, and the other boot has spikes too which is why bill is not off balance ]
Sally jumps and blocks one sword while taking a serious cut from the other (left arm cut badly)
Bill: [ if I were to stick you in the throat now, would you die?]
Sally: [ you might not succede.. just play the game ]
Bill: [ what if I swung at your torso, would that kill you?]
Sally[ yeah.. whatever]
Bill swings the axe at Sally's torso
Sally blocks the axe angrily and spits in Bill's direction
Bill: [ My axe skill is 1375 based on training which I have yet to complete due to limitations to the game's mechanics. That blow would have killed you ]
Sally[ Oh yeah, well my red way skill should be 3000 by now because I'm wearing a flaming amulet of wicked oxidization ]
Bill: [ Oh yeah, well I'm immune to fire because I defeated Xyp4ugh 3 years ago ]
Sally: [ fine, lets just get this over so I can rp with someone who's sane ]
Sally lays on the ground gasping for breath. She grabs onto her prized brown way glyphs and in her last breath casts flying stones at Bill. She smiles knowing that she is a master in the art of brown way]
Bill gets hit by a tiny pebble and then begins to search Sally's body for stuff.
Bill: [ what do you have in your inventory]
Sally: [ here's 10 circles now go away ]
Bill: [ Thats all ? I think bill would be able to find more if he were to really search you. He should at least be able to get a glyph or a sword ]
Sally: [ My body and belongings have vanished .. you just dont see it yet due to graphics limitations. please go find a friend ]
Bill: [ Well, technically it should take much longer.. like days. Bill should be able to pick you clean. ]
Now back on topic .. :) I think the system is fine the way it is. Im just saying that pp system is a little awkward. I do like how with crafting one needs to have both an item specific skill ( ie axe making ) and a general skill ( blacksmithing). Since blacksmithing is shared with other skills it does allow one's traning to support another similar form of training. This simulates the synergy that is found when traning multiple skills better then pp does.
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Percival: You have shown me your dedication to your physical ability, but I don't believe you understand the philosophy behind the techniques. If you do not understand the philosophy behind the techniques then you will not understand how to combine them with my next lesson to continue your path to be a true warrior.
now that's an explanation I really like :) so far I thought of PPs a bit different ICly. I thought of it as some kind of "making up your mind" as that's something at least I need very regularily irl. e.g. after studying a while and advancing a lot, you just have to do something else or something already well known for a while to make up your mind and relax a bit. That's something PP match for me game mechanics wise. it doesn't really matter what you do, just do something to slow down a bit :sleeping:
as for why PP are important as part of training imo: after the rebalancing of how much PP you get, etc., it won't really affect normal players. I tried it out with a fresh character, a somewhat advanced one (only some stats raised) and my high up one (stats maxed, sword/HA 100, one magic way at 100, 2 at 60, ...) and didn't have any issues collecting PP with any of them. actually I get far more PP than I need. however it does balance PLers out quite a bit. e.g. just training magic by casting the same spell over and over without using it to kill others, hitting that monster that can't fight back with q1 swords to get as many practice as possible, etc. I guess everyone playing for more than a year knows those kinds of training.
the issues that were outlined here as for not getting enough PP as starter aren't really an issue with the system, but are a result of the vast amount of changes recently imo. e.g. many players aren't very familiar with the new exp formula and therefore fail at picking the right monsters to kill, etc.
I do agree there are issues, but those won't be easily resolved by just removing PPs completely. also replacing the PP system with something very complex won't make things better, they'd just get worst I think. so to sum it up: it works as it is now, why make a very big change that is very likely to cause many new issues while there are still some more important things to be tackled atm?
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Actually Sarva' last post sums it up nicely... after NPC-revamp and crafting etc. re-pricing PP wise, I think it is fairly easy to get the required PP... the tria is far more the problem, as if you play IC RP-wise correctly, some concepts will have a hell of trouble getting that.
PP is easier than tria!!! :o
Tell me your secrete and I'll tell you one way to get good tria fast. Remember your secret must be valid for a noob :)
Well I do not think PP is set right, I do not think, A noobs nearly dying from a Diseased Rat, should only get 3-4 PP, they should get about 15 if not more, since that is the amount I get from Riverlings (but I don't loose any health)
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The character's starting stats should be taken into consideration.
A character with poorly chosen starting stats and a physically weak race will be at a great disadvantage as opposed to a character with well optimized stats.
The "Quick" option for selecting stats is very useful for making a character with sane stats.
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meet me IG, Vakacheck, and remember, yozr "fast tria" must fit Char concept - so better not involve any skills not fitting character (in this case, crafting etc...)
obviously, char concepts cause different kinds of building "trouble"...
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meet me IG, Vakacheck, and remember, yozr "fast tria" must fit Char concept - so better not involve any skills not fitting character (in this case, crafting etc...)
Hehe I did say one way. :)
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@ Rigwyn etal: 100 is NOT the final max for sword. Also, can't you say the same about Jacula and his axes? (he IS a 150 in Axe...) xD
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@kaerli, weapon and magic stats can in theory go much higher than that.
To prevent godmodding many of us role players "play our stats"
To say that your character has stats which are not yet attainable is godmodding.
Godmodding is when you do things to make your character more powerful than it should be.
Lying about your stats ( in this case claiming to be entitled to stats that are currently
out of reach ),
Making up nonsense excuses for impossible feats,
Forcing actions on another character,
And being invulnerable are all forms of godmodding.
I've heard that stats can go up to 1,000.
What if Rigwyn claimed to have 1,000 in everything? ( And perhaps he comes up with a reason too)
That would be kinda stupid right ?
People would roll their eyes at me and walk away like "yeah, whatever"
That's a gross exaggeration but the reason is the same - its godmodding.
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I don't roleplay fight much anymore, but when I did I generally tried to, as Rigwyn stated, "play my stats". I agree with that. Oh and Stats & Skills can go way over 1000.
In fact, they can go.....OVER 9000!!!
Had to do it. :offtopic:
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@kaerli, weapon and magic stats can in theory go much higher than that.
To prevent godmodding many of us role players "play our stats"
To say that your character has stats which are not yet attainable is godmodding.
Godmodding is when you do things to make your character more powerful than it should be.
Lying about your stats ( in this case claiming to be entitled to stats that are currently
out of reach ),
Making up nonsense excuses for impossible feats,
Forcing actions on another character,
And being invulnerable are all forms of godmodding.
I've heard that stats can go up to 1,000.
What if Rigwyn claimed to have 1,000 in everything? ( And perhaps he comes up with a reason too)
That would be kinda stupid right ?
People would roll their eyes at me and walk away like "yeah, whatever"
That's a gross exaggeration but the reason is the same - its godmodding.
Like I said, that 150-175 is a final number :) I play her fairly close to the 100 the game puts her at, then again, why does sword max at 100 but axe at 150?
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Alrighty...
a) not all characters are the type to do any crafting, so why would they? so pp from crafting goes away.
b) you no PP at all for training in armor, but it costs a ton. repairing doesn't cover it. no pp with armor training.
c) Training your empathy costs a good bit of PP, and again you don't get PP for training in it.
d) The pp for training weapons is just enough to level up in that one weapon category. This is just in my experience.
e) You don't really get pp for using crystal way spells, since most of them are healing/defensive. The only way you could get pp for that is to do the missile type attacks.
f) Personal example: Geoni has gotten to the age where kra doesn't want to fight and train anymore, but kra still wants to learn crystal way through healing not attacking, and gain empathy with kra's pets. I can't level these things without PP, which means if I want to level up in something like crystal way, I'll have to attack monsters with magic spells, which would be somewhat OOC for Geoni. I would love to get into higher levels of magic so that I can cast new spells, but sadly it can't happen with this system.
g) you get 1pp for most ores/crystals you successfully dig. It doesn't cover it.
I'm sure some of the letters above will have various exceptions, magic and weapons for example. I can also RP the stuff like being closely bonded with a pet, but I think it all depends on who your character is for how much pp you get, (unless your some powerleveler whom sits in front of a computer all day clicking clicking clicking) that's why i don't duel, I role-play fighting/defending, and most other things. ---so I'll have to struggle through this optimistically. :sweatdrop:
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need to point this out since no one else has yet
the biggest reason pp makes no sense is because you can milk all your pp from fighting mobs and then spend it on cooking
silly, right? lol
can't see how pp is logical. i'm not sure y the devs chose this system. maybe they were trying to be creative? had they ever thought "maybe theres a reason mmos use the same levelling system"? it's because it works. no need to change it.
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@ Rigwyn etal: 100 is NOT the final max for sword. Also, can't you say the same about Jacula and his axes? (he IS a 150 in Axe...) xD
if you knew anything youd know 100 IS INDEED the max for sword available to ANY player, for a gm the can set any stat or skill the want from 0 to i think iether 2000 or 5000 i dont remember which
but to players, 100 is max for sword
and axes go 150 becuase they are cooler :P
and they are specifically meant for bloody smashy fights
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@ Rigwyn etal: 100 is NOT the final max for sword. Also, can't you say the same about Jacula and his axes? (he IS a 150 in Axe...) xD
Off topic:
I don't see why Jacula should be involved in this, but I guess that I should answer to the critique.
My character has a powerful foundation which has been accumulated over the long time that I have played. I have never made a secret of that, since it can be read in my OOC description.
I don't think that it entitles me to outmatch every character Jacula comes across. Staying true to your character is one thing, being a bully is another. After all, I try to be considerate of both my own and others entertainment.
Kaerli:
Given from what I've seen of your character in game one could think that it had level 200 in each weapon and way. I cannot imagine RP fighting a character slinging three different spells in one attack as well as being masterful in every aspect of combat to be enjoyable.
Keep in mind that this is not a personal attack, Kaerli's alleged skills just sprung to mind as I read this.
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@ Rigwyn etal: 100 is NOT the final max for sword. Also, can't you say the same about Jacula and his axes? (he IS a 150 in Axe...) xD
Off topic:
I don't see why Jacula should be involved in this, but I guess that I should answer to the critique.
My character has a powerful foundation which has been accumulated over the long time that I have played. I have never made a secret of that, since it can be read in my OOC description.
I don't think that it entitles me to outmatch every character Jacula comes across. Staying true to your character is one thing, being a bully is another. After all, I try to be considerate of both my own and others entertainment.
Kaerli:
Given from what I've seen of your character in game one could think that it had level 200 in each weapon and way. I cannot imagine RP fighting a character slinging three different spells in one attack as well as being masterful in every aspect of combat to be enjoyable.
Keep in mind that this is not a personal attack, Kaerli's alleged skills just sprung to mind as I read this.
I was simply using you as the first example that sprung to mind. The real underlying issue is the "skill gap" between swords and axes. Earowo is correct in that axes should do more damage; HOWEVER, why not implement the game so that this is handled through the weapon damage stats, NOT by creating an artificial "skill gap"?
Also, Kaerli isn't THAT good with spells...xD
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I do agree there are issues, but those won't be easily resolved by just removing PPs completely. also replacing the PP system with something very complex won't make things better, they'd just get worst I think. so to sum it up: it works as it is now, why make a very big change that is very likely to cause many new issues while there are still some more important things to be tackled atm?
Above is maybe the best summary for this topic.
Some players are having a hard time gaining PP at the beginning, some of the experienced players will never be able to spend the masses of PP they accumulated. (Maybe just because for most of the more entertaining game aspects, you end up with much more PP than tria.) But none of that seems to be a serious problem.
I would like to add another idea here, which has probably been discussed in the one or other way before...
What about providing some other way to spend your PP? I would love to see a game feature where players can act in the same way as NPC trainers. For instance, the trainee would pay a little (PP and tria) extra for the lesson, as there is no need to search for the right NPC, and the teacher would also spend a certain amount of PP while receiving the tria. And of course, the difference in ranks of the trained skill would have to be in a well defined interval. This would allow a mechanism of of training that does not destroy overall tria, put excressent PP - without much potential of abuse, I assume.
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I do agree there are issues, but those won't be easily resolved by just removing PPs completely. also replacing the PP system with something very complex won't make things better, they'd just get worst I think. so to sum it up: it works as it is now, why make a very big change that is very likely to cause many new issues while there are still some more important things to be tackled atm?
Above is maybe the best summary for this topic.
Some players are having a hard time gaining PP at the beginning, some of the experienced players will never be able to spend the masses of PP they accumulated. (Maybe just because for most of the more entertaining game aspects, you end up with much more PP than tria.) But none of that seems to be a serious problem.
I would like to add another idea here, which has probably been discussed in the one or other way before...
What about providing some other way to spend your PP? I would love to see a game feature where players can act in the same way as NPC trainers. For instance, the trainee would pay a little (PP and tria) extra for the lesson, as there is no need to search for the right NPC, and the teacher would also spend a certain amount of PP while receiving the tria. And of course, the difference in ranks of the trained skill would have to be in a well defined interval. This would allow a mechanism of of training that does not destroy overall tria, put excressent PP - without much potential of abuse, I assume.
well to that person that did that summary. Again taking PP out to have a look at how it will work is a smart thing to do. you can, at any time put it back in. This game is still under testing, and this is our only option to see weather or weather not it will work. Later on it will be too late.
WOW very confusing Bonifarzia! I have a merchant alt who can barley stand up. he's a merchant, how do I get PP from that? now you have came up with a great solution!
I do believe that having no PP would seem... nakid almost only having to get tria and train and then Practice Points. So I do not know, something needs to be done. And again I would not of started this thread if PP was easier to get! I think for noobs only, it is at a hard level and this is what is killing the player community we NEED noobs. Thy do not grow on trees, they are not easy to find. My guild is almost dead at this moment, and I am very much blaming this!
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well to that person that did that summary. Again taking PP out to have a look at how it will work is a smart thing to do. you can, at any time put it back in. This game is still under testing, and this is our only option to see weather or weather not it will work. Later on it will be too late.
WOW very confusing Bonifarzia! I have a merchant alt who can barley stand up. he's a merchant, how do I get PP from that? now you have came up with a great solution!
I do believe that having no PP would seem... nakid almost only having to get tria and train and then Practice Points. So I do not know, something needs to be done. And again I would not of started this thread if PP was easier to get! I think for noobs only, it is at a hard level and this is what is killing the player community we NEED noobs. Thy do not grow on trees, they are not easy to find. My guild is almost dead at this moment, and I am very much blaming this!
My two oldest children (age 10 and 11) recently started playing PlaneShift. They had no problems at all getting PP's from scratch. They are doing very well and my son is now making his own shields and my daughter loves to cook. Most PP's they collected was through mining and then melting ores as that is a very quick way to get PP's in large amounts.
It really is very easy for a noob to get started in PS. I know, my two children did it both.
Greetings,
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well to that person that did that summary. Again taking PP out to have a look at how it will work is a smart thing to do. you can, at any time put it back in. This game is still under testing, and this is our only option to see weather or weather not it will work. Later on it will be too late.
WOW very confusing Bonifarzia! I have a merchant alt who can barley stand up. he's a merchant, how do I get PP from that? now you have came up with a great solution!
I do believe that having no PP would seem... nakid almost only having to get tria and train and then Practice Points. So I do not know, something needs to be done. And again I would not of started this thread if PP was easier to get! I think for noobs only, it is at a hard level and this is what is killing the player community we NEED noobs. Thy do not grow on trees, they are not easy to find. My guild is almost dead at this moment, and I am very much blaming this!
My two oldest children (age 10 and 11) recently started playing PlaneShift. They had no problems at all getting PP's from scratch. They are doing very well and my son is now making his own shields and my daughter loves to cook. Most PP's they collected was through mining and then melting ores as that is a very quick way to get PP's in large amounts.
It really is very easy for a noob to get started in PS. I know, my two children did it both.
Greetings,
adding to that, repairing weapons and armor is a really fast way to get pp its really decent PP for those starting off
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I have to agree - PP for a child comes naturally - usually they fill a nappy... erm.. sorry wrong sort of PP.
Progression Points are easy to obtain - I have loads and I don't even level that much - my problem is that I don't enjoy Levelling at all - and prefer to Role Play - so... sadly my alt suffers my lack of attention in that part.
Lolitra
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And after five pages of "discussion" we now conclude that the system is alright for the time being, as there are other priorities for the team to attend to. Like so many other areas in Planeshift. Well done I say, well done. ;)
:P
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My two oldest children (age 10 and 11) recently started playing PlaneShift. They had no problems at all getting PP's from scratch. They are doing very well and my son is now making his own shields and my daughter loves to cook. Most PP's they collected was through mining and then melting ores as that is a very quick way to get PP's in large amounts.
It really is very easy for a noob to get started in PS. I know, my two children did it both.
Greetings,
[/quote]
adding to that, repairing weapons and armor is a really fast way to get pp its really decent PP for those starting off
[/quote]
What the heck?! is it just me but EVERY noob I help cant find anything that gives good PP melting ores gives them crap all since they are only level... 0! I mean come on where can they go like they use to and get 10 in one easy kill/what not?! (use to from trepors) I've been told countless times to kill mobs via magic up in the seats by the arena but they just run out of mana and t\only take very little damage to the mob. COME ON! thats ridiculous to have the only way for PP!
and I thought PP was better??? as in all round (crafting, fighting, cooking, etc) but it seems sooo impossible to get any.
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haha his quote got scred up
anyways
repairing weapons gives me a good 16 pp per go and you repair faster then you can kill some monsters :P
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haha his quote got scred up
anyways
repairing weapons gives me a good 16 pp per go and you repair faster then you can kill some monsters :P
Last I checked I only got... 1 and I need a sword to repair it.
LOL I just saw that and started reading my post, it looks like I have children... woops