PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: novacadian on July 22, 2010, 10:15:25 pm
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It has been my experience that using and responding to distant tells tends to get my character where me, the player, may want them yet not where the character may naturally choose to be or end up being in a natural in game way. My experience has been that the outcome generally takes away from the character immersion rather than aiding it.
For the moment an /away message is installed each login explaining that tells are being ignored to aid in better character immersion unless a whisper is initiated from the Main window of chat.
It would be nice to be able to disengage the tells completely and not even to be tempted to look at them. With such a feature engaged a Whisper would only work when the character initiating the whisper was within non-shouting range of the character. i.e. readable on Main window as well.
- Nova
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Yes. I think one of the problems with RP these days is that people send each-other tells where to get their characters to meet up when I think RP should be spontaneous instead. I don't think tells should be taken away completely, but rather, have the ability to separate a character whisper from /tell []'s. Then being able to disable tells because some of us don't care about too many things OOCly.
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Why? Isn't the away message enough? It seems to me you hanging with the wrong persons if you get that kind of tells even after explaining to them about your way of playing. Tell is a so powerful tool if you just put some care in how you use it in my opinion.
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Half the problem is people's schedules, ya' know? *wink, nudge*
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What is better
1) Spending most of you available RP time trying to find the other person you want/need to talk to
or
2) Using the OOC tell to find out where you might just happen to bump into that person you want/need to talk to and having more time to RP?
Personally I have no problem with #2 not much different from looking on your guild member list to see what map your guild mate is on when you want to talk to them. If time spent trying to find someone IC'ly means less time you actually have to RP then I don't see a problem with a little OOC cheat to give you more time to RP.
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Guild tab should just be plain taken away, along with the nouveau Alliance tab. I would also say group tab because it is OOC too, but sometimes RPers use it to...well...RP naughty stuff. :O
There is still a minimal need for people to be OOC, the point being what Kaerli mentioned with people needing to share their schedules. That is why tells shouldn't be completely removed, but necessary to separate from whispers.
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do it in your client and leave others alone. you just need to remove the entries in chat.xml.
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You have the option of removing a chat tab's flashing when a new message is sent. I think.
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Some guilds use the Guild and Alliance channels for OOC discussions on important things (and some friendly banter).
As for using it to "find RP", well, the server's not always overflowing with players.
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Not to forget:
"/ignore Nuisance"
"/away I don't like tells, shut up."
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do it in your client and leave others alone. you just need to remove the entries in chat.xml.
Exactly. If you disable the button only, you won't notice incoming tells, but you will be able to read the tell tab whenever you send a /tell yourself.
xml file sent as PM to Nova.
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How about a more novel way to look at them, I too have found that they tend to be OOC in Nature but the /me /my functions still works in tells as they do in the main chat so I have reverted to something more like '/my Messenger finds you and hands you a letter Reading 'Where Might one meet up with you to discuss an important matter' on the other persons tell screen it reads Hrothbert's Messenger finds you and hands you a letter......' You get the idea turn them into an IC type of communication.
Now I know that there are people that have tried to start a type of messenger service but the problem with that is if them to be efficient they tend to revert to tells to find the people the message is intended for which would create the same problem. Unless a person had a 'mailbox' of some sort there seems that the tells/whispers will be needed in the future.
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xml file sent as PM to Nova.
Its nice to hear that xml changes are available to players in their client; yet my feeling is that this will not address the separation of tells and whispers, correct?
My suggestion is not to penalize all players that like tells the way they are at the moment. My suggestion is to allow players the choice to have the tell ability or not without loosing the whisper ability in close range.
The xml fix will not address that correct?
My suggestion is meant as a feature to those that find tells distracting from character immersion not as a penalty to those that care to use them.
- Nova
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Afaik, the button for the /tell tab is just misleadingly labeled as "whisper", which does not exist as separate mechanism with a shorter range than /say. Maybe that is the feature you wish to request.
The file I sent you simply makes the tell=whisper tab invisible until you use a /tell command or the buddy list to send a private message.
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You are correct Bonifarzia. My wish would be that the Tells and Whispers be separated with the Tells having the ability to be disabled by players. The Whisper should then only work within a smaller range than Main.
- Nova
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You are correct Bonifarzia. My wish would be that the Tells and Whispers be separated with the Tells having the ability to be disabled by players. The Whisper should then only work within a smaller range than Main.
- Nova
Even if it was misunderstood by him, I talked to weltall about this yesterday which turned into an argument. He's not going to impliment it because he thinks that [whispers] isn't even needed and that it should be called [tells] instead of [whispers]. Little things like this is why I'm losing faith in the PS team.
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Yes I've seen that and more. I find it unprofessional the way developer politics were dealt with and now I know why most of the developers or members of the team that supported the settings and pushed the development towards becoming a unique RP game aren't here any longer. Every nice little suggestion like this one that players throw out as ideas to improve RP are scowled upon, torn up, and burned as if it was an enemy flag.
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He's not going to impliment it because he thinks that [whispers] isn't even needed and that it should be called [tells] instead of [whispers].
Well a toggle on Tells/Whispers is fine by me. Going without Whisper would be ok with me. Should someone initiate a whisper in Main then the feature could be engaged for that RP and then disengaged again when the RP is finished.
If it is a player only toggle then it should not disrupt those that do not wish to toggle off the feature and it should meet the criteria of Weltall as well should it not?
Weltall also thinks grinding is RPing a warrior...
It is my belief that the game mechanics should reflect character development as well and grinding, as you call it, is a part of my character's way of life. To not see it as such is like suggestion that doing a dungeon crawl in D&D is not role playing. It is the essence or Role Playing in my opinion. That is it is the main physical developmental technique to the rule set.
My character makes their total income by grinding/hunting (never mined ever) and enjoys the hunt/grind. Of course other players may see it differently, yet if ones character is supposed to be a warrior then, it is my feeling, that it should be reflected in the character's stats.... yet perhaps my raving is getting a bit OT.
:oops:
- Nova
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Weltall also thinks grinding is RPing a warrior and that RPers should better play on IRC (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=36195.msg422432#msg422432). And he's not alone (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35700.msg429113#msg429113)... that's how it goes here.
While I don't agree with weltall on a few things, he is right in that you don't need a fancy 3D client to roleplay. Pen and Paper. Even an IRC channel would do. Add some imagination. PlaneShift is being developed as a game not just a platform for roleplay. Game. You know, the things you do for fun (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scvb8mYTMrA&feature=related).
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Spongebob has nothing to do with this topic, so please don't try and add a fancy ending to your statement by adding something irrelevant to the game.
Now, off the topic just to feed certain people who love to get off topic: So you two (weltall and Xoel) are saying that the RP server should be completely taken away, letting the hoards of PLer zombies take over the server and lead planeshift on the way to being just another "hardly fit for RP" RP game? If so then it goes to show how much integrety this game has lost. The settings aren't even available to the players for mysterious reasons. Shutting out the RPers, which is the only art-like thing that this game has to present, not only shows how RP is dying, but it also goes to show how the setting and back-story of Planeshift is also dying.
On topic: labeling what used to be tells as whisper was one of the only recent improvements to the game that is programmed to promote RP, and now certain people in charge of the implementations want to get rid of it. That would be like taking a piece of artwork and burning it because you disagree. I roleplay a character that likes to whisper to people once in a while and that is the only time when you should not use brackets in tells. I am used to myself and other players using brackets in tells.
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I see no problem with a toggle. It's just an option. On the other hand RP is in fact not totally about mechanics. Grinning in a dungeon based tabletop RPG is way different than RPing in an open ended world where most people are never in dungeons at all. Grinding has it's place but it is by no means RP. I can support it, but in of itself it is not and never will be RP.
That being said, PS needs to stop trying to be a mainstream MMO( it's too far behind to ever make that work) and be the greatest of all the Online Roleplaying games. And by Roleplaying games I don't mean RPG as any old WoW clone can claim that. It needs to have RP factor more in it's basic structure and it needs to make mechanics to fit RP not have RP fit the mechanics.... that's what they do in other games that "tolerate" having a RP community. That is an embarrassing fail state for PS which used to be a shining gem in the world of actual RP games/communities. Now it's dull and buried.
Until the underlying mindset changes, stuff like this won't even be given enough consideration to find a better idea that will take care of this issue without bothering players that disagree with the measure. It's just the way things are. :(
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While I don't agree with weltall on a few things, he is right in that you don't need a fancy 3D client to roleplay. Pen and Paper. Even an IRC channel would do. Add some imagination. PlaneShift is being developed as a game not just a platform for roleplay. Game. You know, the things you do for fun (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scvb8mYTMrA&feature=related).
I wish I could say that it's amusing to see how Geoni turns somewhat discontent with PS. But noticing how quickly Geoni's opinion has apparently shifted..
Well, who is Xoel? Joined several months back, does some disputable arts, has no comparison to how was it when roleplaying was really blooming, I dont care. More remarkable to me is Weltall's opinion here, and it saddens me, given the citations are right. According to that, PS is nothing more than a tech-demo: Join to check out the mechanical implementations. Suggestions of whatever kind are a priori refused unless they support the finding of bugs. This is an official attitude that I wonder why would anyone would want to join, and even if it is only for wasting time hitting a button to level, say, blacksmithing.
Oh, and Xoel, if you want to impress people by your sig "Art, 'nuff said" - at least antialias that font, otherwise it does look very amateuristic. Even you, I am sure, can do better.
As for ontopic:
First and frickin foremost, for gods sake, remove that uttermost silly Gossip channel. If you guys spearhead "Use IRC for RP", then you cannot but have to remove it, because that channel is nothing but a blunt IRC. However I admit, if players communication is wished to be more prominent than character communication, leave it be (for difference between both, please consult any roleplaying guide).
And as for Telling or Whispering.. good lord, same discussion again - Years ago I was already trying to make /tell equal to /say but merely in a very limited range. Who cares? Oh, it is PS, it is for posting stuff for fun, and for being amused about things go down the road while few chosen ones wont refuse to claim "All is well!" - No wait.. Finara Pund does not say that anymore, but still "things" go down, just... way less ones - hey, thats amusing again now!lol
EDIT:
Although I never liked you in the beginning, Geoni, you became more and more sympathetic to me - pleasure to see you on our forums now! Not much to offer to you, although I hope our libraries can be of use to you during your play!
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Although I never liked you in the beginning, Geoni, you became more and more sympathetic to me - pleasure to see you on our forums now! Not much to offer to you, although I hope our libraries can be of use to you during your play!
Thanks, when it comes to me not being liked, I was probably an arrogant newb, and I realized I needed to overcome that. I try to stay sympathetic even though it is becoming very difficult sometimes. When it comes to joining your forums, I did it because the library is very resourceful and I hope that more players that are serious about RP come and join the forum to see the settings that were hidden from them.
That being said, PS needs to stop trying to be a mainstream MMO( it's too far behind to ever make that work) and be the greatest of all the Online Roleplaying games. And by Roleplaying games I don't mean RPG as any old WoW clone can claim that. It needs to have RP factor more in it's basic structure and it needs to make mechanics to fit RP not have RP fit the mechanics.... that's what they do in other games that "tolerate" having a RP community. That is an embarrassing fail state for PS which used to be a shining gem in the world of actual RP games/communities. Now it's dull and buried.
Until the underlying mindset changes, stuff like this won't even be given enough consideration to find a better idea that will take care of this issue without bothering players that disagree with the measure. It's just the way things are. :(
That is what I hope for the PS team to achieve but the mindset of the majority seems to stray the other way. Maybe with the many players quitting they will realize what has been happening because of some of the things they have changed.
@the topic: It isn't going to happen, not until some minds have been changed, or get in game enough and RP enough so that they can see what really needs to be done. I have nothing else to say.
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For the sake of realism, all chat functionality should be removed from the game except for whisper, say, and shout. Do that, and RP will explode on the system.
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For the sake of realism, all chat functionality should be removed from the game except for whisper, say, and shout. Do that, and RP will explode on the system.
Define "RP".
Realism is not what PlaneShift is about. PlaneShift is a Game, it offers mechanics to mine, to fight, to blacksmith and to cook, and in the nearby future some more ventures. PlaneShift also enables you to communicate with other players to exchange your opinions on your latest watched movie, your favorite video game, your extracurricular events and even your favorite food! And while doing so, let us know about the bugs you found ingame, please!
If you want to have a truthful focus on roleplay meet your friends on an IRC channel of your choice. For further information and guidance consult Xoel by Personal Message.
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For the sake of realism, all chat functionality should be removed from the game except for whisper, say, and shout. Do that, and RP will explode on the system.
I can't say I totally disagree with this idea. ::|
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Grinning in a dungeon based tabletop RPG is way different than RPing in an open ended world where most people are never in dungeons at all. Grinding has it's place but it is by no means RP. I can support it, but in of itself it is not and never will be RP.
Then we are calling a truck a car. My mention of the dungeon was to take things back to its simple roots. In fact the table top world that finds me as a player (as opposed to GM-ing) has more continents and cities than PS! Yet that said one still needs to kill/grind in order to advance stats. If we are still talking something different then perhaps the difficulty is that a term is being used that confuses new players. If the RP on PS is really different then call it something different like RS (Role Stories) or something so that someone, like myself, that has been involved in Role Playing since the mid-1980's will get a handle of what you are talking about.
- Nova
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Roleplaying traditionally and roleplaying in a MMO is slightly different I guess. One thing pretty much all RP communities in MMOs have in common is that it is, in fact, more like telling a story than just playing the role. If you use the playing a role definition, then pretty much any game you play fits. But in PS there is a persistent world that ideally players are shaping through their characters.
The characters' story is their lives which ideally involves more than just repetition, especially repetition without interaction. As I said, grinding has it's place and can serve to help RP. I had to PL cooking in the beginning so that Illy's RP and abilities matched. Once the level was sufficient to fit the story of the character, then I stopped training as it was no longer necessary and I went back to RPing. At that point I had the ability to share the cooked food I had previously only RPed. We just need to get people out of the "kill kill kill" mentality of the generic MMO and in to the "my character is a person.. not just a sword with an arm" mentality of the PS RPer.
For most people: think of your RPs from the standpoint of an author, not just a gamer (from the stand point of gaining experience and stats. ;) ).
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It is my feeling that you are cutting too fine a line of what is and what is not RP. For example when RP-ing with two other players coming back from Oja to the city we hunted all the way. A long and chaotic group battle taking out a Trepor was one of my most exciting and enjoyable times on PS to date. There was comradery felt, friendships made, excitement both in game and in a story line.... oh and damn fine pps. If one does not like developing the character through game mechanics, then you have no argument here. Yet to say that when those that do so are not role playing seems incredibly judgemental to me.
- Nova
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Grinding... the parts between the grinding are NOT grinding...
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Then one could say of my character's trip from Oja that each time we stopped we were Rp-ing; yet when using the mechanics of movement we were not? Or is mechanic repetition only grinding if it offers some pp reward? Continually moving from point A to B can be a grind of sorts in my estimation. Silly? Think about it and the use of tells that causes such grinding of movement. Is that a more legit RP than a hunter who ignores their tells?
You seem to be drawing an arbitrary line in the RP sand. The thing is, that you have my total respect for the subset that you consider RP. If no one is forcing you to incorporate some of my subset it would be nice to feel the same respect from those that do not. To say that developing my character is not RP seems absurd to me.
Without common respect as to what Role Playing may mean to different players the community is a splintered one; each sharing only a common background world and not the common fun of playing interactively.
- Nova
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No, you are jumping to conclusions and making assumption that don't even apply to what I am saying. And trust me, I have as much right as you to be slightly offended as you are putting words in my mouth. Just the mechanics alone is not character development, not in this game or any other. I acknowledged that it has its place, if you read my post, I've done it. But grinding is not in of itself the RP, it is a tool. Now if you want to jump on me because I don't make as much use of mechanics then you are the one drawing an arbitrary line in the sand. If I didn't have respect for different types, I would have left the game long ago.
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No attempt was made to put words in your mouth. If they were placed there on my account then allow me to offer my apologies for that. Once extracted the rest remains.
- Nova
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Once extracted there is nothing left. ;) We actually don't disagree. It's just every time I say anything involving RP and mechanics in the same sentence, people start hearing criticisms of their own RP and tune out what I am actually saying. If people weren't so quick to feel attacked people would find I'm not nearly that critical.
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Astounding to see another thread diverge.
For the sake of realism, all chat functionality should be removed from the game except for whisper, say, and shout.
That's what basic chat window does, except for NPC speech and help tab. Everyone is free to enable it, but no one should be forced to.
Nova:
A feature request on the bug tracker (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/flyspray) could have more impact than a diffuse discussion on the wishlist boards here. Maybe you first want to open a request for a /whisper command in analogy to /shout, and be sure to specify how exactly you want this to work (syntax, targeting, range, main or a new tab, ... try to keep it clear and simple).
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Roleplay doesn't exist. Thats why its funny to come here and see people arguing about it. All you have is a different approach for every person who logs in, no way to moderate it, and no way to enforce any sort of structure to it. A roleplaying game has a mechanical structure that is definite. Roleplaying games were not invented yesterday and were definitely NOT invented starting with PlaneShift.
My statement was that if you remove all chat functionality, roleplay will explode on the system. And at least one posted after me, who wanted to lecture me on their opinions. But my point is that if you are serious about roleplay, remove the excuses for not roleplaying, i.e. all the gratuitous chat functionality; make the characters interact as characters. As long as people can instant message each other from afar you are reducing chances of "roleplay" dramatically across all character interactions on the system.
But the next argument that should have come up was coordinating events and scenarios (not informing me of your favorite movies, like I give a damn) and how hard that would be without the chat functions. The chat that has been added to the game has been added for a reason. Just like the game mechanics. And it was expanded to the current level of chat functions for practical reasons based on what I just mentioned. So I really doubt they are going to remove it.
But my point still stands... if you want RP, remove all chat functionality that represents a magical messaging service between the characters. RP will EXPLODE on the system if this is done. And I mean everything except whisper, say and shout. RP started dying with guild chat, and now that we have a gossip channel, roleplay is dead. Forget that you can't define roleplay; as far as it goes within the PS world, its whatever the players say it is because the devs have not yet added many functions to support it.
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Off topic? Yeah, who cares...
many care - stop dragging off things completely, but instead move totally unrelated things in a new topic if you want to discuss them ;)
but to replay a bit:
Every time somebody suggests that they use mechanics less than it takes to max chars (that's months of grinding) s/he is accused of not using mechanics at all. Every single time the same pattern is repeated. Truth is all those people have used and keep using mechanics, but in the eyes of devote grinders this is not enough. I guess it's the same the other way around, grinders do not RP enough for those people.
that fight is more on the forum than anything else - I never had issues with that ingame myself nor did those I played with ;)
...Traveling from Oja to Hydlaa while hunting with a party is NOT grinding. Now try to ONLY earn your money/PP through this kind of excursions. If you manage to do that and your hair didn't turn white when done, you will probably be the first one to manage. Too bad in PS this takes you a lifetime.
you'd expect to become a master by just guarding a traveller from time to time? I certainly doubt that, you *do* have to train from time to time, too.
those who become masters usually train several hours a game for years...
now in PS: if you just train a little bit from time to time (make it an hour every 3rd day or whatever), you can easily become quite good within a reasonable amount of time as hunter/mercenary/whatever.
PS is not a D&D based game, and it's not a pen&paper either. In most D&D based video-games I played you can't go further than level 25ish, stats barely increase through the whole game (you mostly do with the ones from character creation) and you don't have to go out to kill mobs for the sake of killing mobs, ever. You progress as you do quests, because mobs are in the way. This is close to your hunting trips, and even if you have to kill a lot of them, I don't see it as grinding since there's a ultimate reason to do that other than raising stats.
after all, not exactly true. Drakensang is a great example of a single-player game that uses pure pen&paper rules, however I still had to grind from time to time to be able to advance further as it was impossible to advance in the quests without the training. same goes for other games of this kind which have completely different rules (e.g. the ones of the elder scrolls series).
On top of that, training in PS is terribly boring (proof is the same PLers call it "hard work" lol), while we are at copying WoW and other MMOs at least we should start making training as "fun" as in those games.
The issue is in the game's concept of character development, not in the players wanting to have the skills/stats they feel their char should have.
on that one: I have to agree - training isn't the way it should be.
however it's being worked on and there have been quite some good suggestions so far that can help making it more interesting.
now to the actual topic:
what's the issue of putting OOC requests in brackets and actually putting a nice message in if it's an IC one? (e.g. I used to send my Yulbar to deliver messages over longer distance while only half the message actually reached the target as the other half was unreadable because the little Yulbar went off-track (again - *cough*) and had fun in the mud or ran through the river)
as for the request for an explicit whisper tab: I doubt it'll be actually useful. the range would have to be 2m max which is clearly nothing ingame. also others can still hear whispers, why shouldn't they be able ingame?
now one could think of an extra chat command (/whisper message) that's only heard in such a small range which would make more sense to be honest and would be more consistent with the other commands for doing emotes, shout, etc.
but I'm not sure how much that'd fit into what you actually had in mind...
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The settings aren't even available to the players for mysterious reasons.
I tell you once, I tell you a million times, the settings aren't available because they're 1) Not there and 2) what is there hasn't had inconsistencies fixed.
Oh, and there's a huge hole in internal docs where UtM had been making docs. Because none of them can be used with his revelation that he never signed the licence. Funny how some people stick to a view that supports their negative views though.
Really, your argument bores me. If you don't like the way a commercial game is, you certainly don't whinge that they don't support your style of play. You just don't waste time and effort on that game or its community. And yet, in PlaneShift, made entirely by a volunteer, everyone feels the need to troll whenever something they don't like is said, and turn every thread into a whinge about the game not being perfect for your perfectionist RP. Get a life, 'nuff said.
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Nova:
A feature request on the bug tracker (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/flyspray) could have more impact than a diffuse discussion on the wishlist boards here. Maybe you first want to open a request for a /whisper command in analogy to /shout, and be sure to specify how exactly you want this to work (syntax, targeting, range, main or a new tab, ... try to keep it clear and simple).
Good point Bonifarzia. For the moment using the /away command seems to be doing the job for me at least. Each login the following is placed in the /away command...
"For better game immersion tells are being ignored unless used as whispers initiated in Main"
This does not change the fact of walking up to someone my character knows and greeting them and feeling great pauses in the ensuing conversation. One can almost see the tells flying by and distraction from the current RP on their side.
However even with a toggle installed that is not, likely, to change for all characters one meets. ;)
- Nova
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you'd expect to become a master by just guarding a traveller from time to time? I certainly doubt that, you *do* have to train from time to time, too.
those who become masters usually train several hours a game for years...
Of course, you have to train. People train with dummies, not annihilating every living being in sight.
I concur.
In addition to what Pepito already said, when walking into a real confrontation, the last thing you'll be thinking about is using those neat new techniques some guy taught you back there. In real confrontation you are just too busy maintaining your focus and will to burden yourself with techniques you haven't mastered yet.
As to training for several hours a day for years... I just don't buy this. I've had runs of intensive physical exercises about 3 hours a day for about 2 months. Even with proper nutrition and theoretical knowledge about exercising, after such runs my mind and my body were just too exhausted to continue the workout.
Now considering that most people get discouraged after a few days of 1 hour per day exercises and that several ages ago people didn't quite possess profound knowledge about proper exercising, I don't really think anyone had the patience and capabilities of maintaining such an intensive physical workout for a number of years.
In most cases training 1 hour per day, 5 days a week with some breaks for several years is really enough to become superb at what you do. All you need is a good teacher. I've been doing fencing, guitar-playing and street-dancing. In all these activities finding proper learning techniques is enough to progress at incredibly fast pace. And it most certainly doesn't look anything like mindless grinding.
If you do grinding exercises, I really doubt training several hours a day will even get you anywhere. I know people who made hardly any progress over several years because of favouring such approach.
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I've heard it said often that to become an expert in something you need 10,000 of practice in that skill/field or a variation of that says 10 years or 10,000 hours of deliberate practice
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Get a life, 'nuff said.
Xoel get a premeditated thought process that works before you say things, 'nuff said.
Somebody lock this damn thread already. It's full of personal attacks and off topic arguments.
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I think you're stupid Geoni, and you smell like cow manure.
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I think you're stupid Geoni, and you smell like cow manure.
What's wrong with the lovely smell of pastures, hater? :thumbdown:
I would expect better from you.
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I've heard it said often that to become an expert in something you need 10,000 of practice in that skill/field or a variation of that says 10 years or 10,000 hours of deliberate practice
it's a lie
of course, the devs of a free online game know jack shatner about exercise. it's even been proven that training muscles only really works if you rarely (meaning a couple times a week) weight train. if you know nothing about real life, don't make a realistic game. you'll get it all wrong.
OH SNAP
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I've heard it said often that to become an expert in something you need 10,000 of practice in that skill/field or a variation of that says 10 years or 10,000 hours of deliberate practice
it's a lie
No not a lie http://www.ehow.com/how_5065117_use-hour-rule-achieve-success.html and http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/339/dec01_2/b5138
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I definetely agree with sarva.
after a whole year training archery for about 2-3h a day, I wasn't that bad, but I was still anything but a master, not even an expert ;)
such things require time - a lot of time. and if you ever got involved with martial arts, archery, etc., I'm quite certain you know that developing such a skill to a level of complete mastery takes quite some time.
getting to a beginner or intermediate level doesn't require that much experience, though, at all. and actually planeshift reflects that (I got to level 30 ranged and str/agi 100 (starting at 50/70 iirc) within a single day ;))
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No not a lie http://www.ehow.com/how_5065117_use-hour-rule-achieve-success.html
I quote:
"Outliers, further describes how the magic number of 10,000 hours was the average number of hours the violinists as well as athletes, composers, writers, artists, even criminals spent to achieve their success."
"average number" does not quite equal "minimal number" and in all honesty it does not say anything at all. And what's with this "criminals" thing? I guess there's an official criminal school somewhere out there?
But anyway, since I cannot possibly argue with internet links, I'll throw one myself:
http://www.robertomoretti.com/blog/2009/06/11/the-10000-hour-rule-of-talent-a-myth/ (http://www.robertomoretti.com/blog/2009/06/11/the-10000-hour-rule-of-talent-a-myth/)
RlyDontKnow: I gotta admit.
If you really managed to maintain 2-3 hours for a year and it wasn't mere "trial and error" or "playing around" training, then I'm really amazed all you can say about your skills now is "not bad". But I do feel obliged to commend you on your patience, the more that from what you say the progress wasn't exactly clearly visible. Very few people wouldn't be discouraged in such situation.
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it wasn't mere trial&error, I'm in one of the most successful clubs in my country and our trainers are well trained and one even got the highest rank you can get in that area and is qualified to train professionaly (e.g. she even trained olympia contestants)
"not that bad" is quite good after all, I managed to hit targets being 80m away and didn't have any issues hitting targets beign about 30-50m away. I was one of those advancing pretty fast after all.
anyway, maybe you should think about your definition of master, again.
a true master would be something along the lines of beethoven or mozart music wise, for achery along the lines of "robin hood".
it's something legendary that you definetely won't see just every day and that level is clearly incredibly hard to reach.
sure you can reach a "not that bad" level quite easily, but that's not what's been discussed lately for ps tbh...
becoming a *master* shouldn't be easy, it requires *years* of hard work, mostly even a whole life time. it's nothing you can achieve within a few months. think of the master crafters of medieval asia, samurai, ninjas and thelike even if it's a bit off track ;)
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a true master would be something along the lines of beethoven or mozart music wise, for achery along the lines of "robin hood".
Um. You do realise Mozart became a prominent performer still in his early childhood, right? That sort of proves my point. Also, I refuse to accept Robin Hood as a relevant figure in this discussion, due to his fictional character...
Anyway, Lilou (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmH7T3xFCOg) is the only contestant that ever won Red Bull BC One twice, so I suppose he can be considered a master. The linked performance is the first time he won it, 7 years after taking up b-boying and he already reached international podiums 2 years earlier. That gives him 5 years to reach more or less superb skill.
Are we to assume he continued straining exercises 6 hours a day for 5 years, non-stop, and continued beyond that? He does have a life beyond b-boying, y'know.
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becoming a *master* shouldn't be easy, it requires *years* of hard work, mostly even a whole life time. it's nothing you can achieve within a few months. think of the master crafters of medieval asia, samurai, ninjas and thelike even if it's a bit off track ;)
did you forget this is a video game we're talking about? it's supposed to be fun, not work.
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We're arguing about Mozart now? :lol: This thread gets funnier every time I look at it.
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IRL, very few people would become a master at anything, regardless of how much they learn, train or practice. And to have a chance, one needs to be good to begin with.
Games are egalitarian; everyone has a chance. The real issue has been agreed upon for ages: progress with fun. Balance only follows.
For the /say/whisper/shout thingy: maybe I never said it before (got busy and forgot while working on it), but I remember a wish nucleus I used to have about an individual voice volume you set before you speak, along with a sort of Stentor stat or racial trait that allows people to shout louder than others (and cover others' voices ;D), vocal chords that can strain, a /sing command, no more /shout and /whisper commands, etc. Don't ask me what all this is for, though; as I said, it was just a bric-a-brac of ideas.
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did you forget this is a video game we're talking about? it's supposed to be fun, not work.
Perhaps in context of what Pepito said, there could be minigames that act as out-of-combat training.
For example for archery you'd have a "shoot at target" minigame, with varying levels of difficulty ("shoot the target", "shoot speciffic area", "moving target") that grant varying amount of experience if accomplished. As the character would get better, the target would move farther away (to the point where you need a good enough bow to shoot that far), and player would be forced to pay greater heed to such notions as strength of a shot, wind strength/direction and the angle.
This way the minigame would continue to be challenging and I suppose fun.
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Even if it was misunderstood by him, I talked to weltall about this yesterday which turned into an argument. He's not going to impliment it because he thinks that [whispers] isn't even needed and that it should be called [tells] instead of [whispers]. Little things like this is why I'm losing faith in the PS team.
In all fairness to weltall and the dev team the following message was stumbled across from the distant past...
...the best player of planeshift is someone who roleplays using the mechanics and not someone who uses only the mechanics or only the text. A middle zone then.
Personally, the attitude expressed in the above quote from weltall seems a good one for a developer to have with so many opinions as to what RP should and should not be.
This observation is not mean to start up off topic flames but just to make clear that his opinion is respected by me and the use of /away has been doing the job quite well to meet my needs/request.
- Nova
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geoni didn't report the entire thing anyway for me whispers should be in main not in tell with a different radius. there was also the idea of selectable voice strength the problem of it is making an interface.
i think everyone would love a whisper which is invisible to everyone in real life: is it so? :) i can only imagine the mass of students who would use it :D
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geoni didn't report the entire thing anyway for me whispers should be in main not in tell with a different radius. there was also the idea of selectable voice strength the problem of it is making an interface.
i think everyone would love a whisper which is invisible to everyone in real life: is it so? :) i can only imagine the mass of students who would use it :D
Here is just a portion of one of the arguments that we had, just to "report" what had been said and how I know you aren't going to let this "tell disable" thing happened:
[01:49] <@weltall> well i'm not going to copy and paste tell to make whispers you can forget that
(The statement above is what tells me this isn't going to happen. I'm sure that it is SO hard to copy and paste some code that has already been written.)
[01:56] <@weltall> really many "rp features" are just absurd to think about
[01:57] <@weltall> i had things like area based inventories
[01:57] <@weltall> invisible labels
[01:57] <@weltall> copying a feature just to add a slightly difference
[01:57] <Geoni> It's absurd to think that RP features aren't important in a RP game...or what used to be a RP game.
[01:57] <@weltall> almost imperceptible
[01:57] <Illysia> No, you disagree with RP mentality.
[01:58] <@weltall> no that's not rp mentality
[01:58] <Illysia> The problem is that RP fell out of fashion and tragically even in RP games...
[01:58] <@weltall> it's covered mentality
[01:58] <@weltall> you think only of "nice shiny this"
[01:58] <Illysia> Yes it is weltall. You simple disagree with it.
[01:58] <@weltall> but you don't look at all the conseguences of your ideas
[01:58] <Illysia> No, otherwise we'd be happy with mounts.
[01:58] <Illysia> weltall, look at player numbers before you talk consequences of action. ;)
[01:59] <@weltall> an x,y based inventory is unusable
[01:59] <@weltall> and if it was for me i'd even go to a list based inventory
[01:59] <Illysia> What are talking about?
[01:59] <@weltall> about some of the great ideas which came out recently
[02:00] <@weltall> full cloaking with no player name label => griefing
[02:01] <Illysia> That doesn't mean it was suggested by a decent RPer...
[02:01] <Illysia> Obviously not all ideas work but all ideas get tossed out just the same.
[02:01] <@weltall> no? didn't look like that from the community
[02:02] <@weltall> tell with radius is quite weird
[02:02] <@weltall> but personally i always used main to whisper
(At this statement above: it is easy to tell that you code only what you want and prefer, over what most players don't.)
[02:02] <Illysia> No, it's like sounds not traveling the full length of the city.
[02:02] <@weltall> and yes i find people who can't rp and have hears who let them hear from the other side of the city
[02:02] <@weltall> but that's another thing
[02:02] <Illysia> If people respect the whisper then fine but many fine that hard.
[02:03] <@weltall> then you are confused because a more limited radius say is not the same as a tell
[02:03] <@weltall> which is a private message
[02:04] <Illysia> The basic problem is that there are already too many OOC features.
[02:04] <@weltall> the whole game is an ooc feature it runs in a screen :)
Things didn't get much better from this point on but if anybody wants to waste their time reading the rest of the almost pointless argument you can see it here: http://pastebin.com/keXk45xj
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When I talked with weltall, it seemed very clear to me that he's against /tell removal, but all the same supports /whisper as a short-distance articulation that appears in the main channel...
Despite being confusing, these logs say the same thing and I really don't see what's so wrong with weltall's approach to the issue.
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Well even I don't really think /tell should be removed. I think that there should be an option of /tell to be removed. That was Nova's original idea is to have the option. Now when it comes to whispering something on the main, there is always that fear that a player would take info they hear whispered on main and act like thier character can hear from such a distance. It's like announcing that your character is a BF priest/priestess on the forum, people will take OOC info and apply it ICly. Plus, the whisper tab isn't always used ICly for whispers, like somebody has mentioned there are other things that can't be heard because of maps or the 30 ft hearing radius, like knocking on a guild house door, or things characters do in vision that are more than 30 ft away but the other characters should still be able to see. There are situations like that to consider.
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[01:49] <@weltall> well i'm not going to copy and paste tell to make whispers you can forget that
(The statement above is what tells me this isn't going to happen. I'm sure that it is SO hard to copy and paste some code that has already been written.)
welltall's approach is fine. Why do you need the same functionality duplicated with a different name on it?
You sarcastically say that it must be so hard... you do realize that duplicating a function like this is not as simple as doing a cut and paste on a block of text in an editor?
References need to be changed across the codebase if this happens. If they are not all changed the first time around, they must be debugged.
/tell X /me whispers... is this really so hard? You can effectively roleplay in ANY game, nevermind of what the commands are labeled as.
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soory, but as already mentioned earlier, I totally agree with what weltall stated.
there's absolutely no point in copy-pasting code to do the very same, again. it will not solve your issue as you'll still get OOC tells in whisper and it makes (the already impossibly hard to maintain) gui code just even harder to maintain - hence even more prone to bugs.
as for characters hearing you... if it's added as IC, it'd be *very* small, maybe 2 or 3 meters - that's absolutely nothing. try to drop an item as far away as possible, that's 5m.
that put aside: the say range already is quite small - adding a whisper command - fine, not that hard. but I really agree with weltall that some requests are just ridicioulus from an engine pov.
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geoni didn't report the entire thing anyway for me whispers should be in main not in tell with a different radius. there was also the idea of selectable voice strength the problem of it is making an interface.
By interface, do you mean the GUI, or the code interface? For the GUI, I could see a slide bar (from 1 to 100%) that resets itself to default volume after each /say. And maybe some range for each player to choose their default value...
For the /tell, people should see a list of what it's used for, before willing to get rid of their own. I never use it, except for dialog with a GM, and the occasional technical help to a player, when it can't be done otherwise; this is why I wouldn't hide my tab. It seems also that all the people who pre-plan their RPs cannot do without it.