Worst turn in PS??

[Jakob]

This thread, which Moogie locked, was about the guild wipe.  It answers a few questions.  And this thread has some arguments going on too.  Moogie didn\'t lock this one, but she did post there... hmm...  whatever...  But are two threads really neccessary?  Is one thread really neccessary?  It\'s the same people posting over and over again in all three.  They serve little to no purpose with the exception of letting people vent, which i suppose isn\'t all bad but I digress...  I still don\'t understand why this was here instead of Wish List, Guild, or General Chat... but, again, whatever.  The point is that this thread, like the other two, has decomposed from a valid debate to where most people are just ignoring it.  It was a valuable thread in the beginning, but then I think we got slightly distracted.  If you\'ll notice, DeathsAngel, myself, Karyuu, Gupgohanss did most of the posting with a few others just kinda making cameos.  We\'re now repeating ourselves, some of us having run out of things to say.  I think we\'re all to strong and intelligent to let a little thing like 20,000 tria and 5 people get in our ways, but how many times have 1 of us had to say to someone, \"The point is to have the money and people available before you start the guild\" or something like that?  It\'s getting out of hand.  I\'m not saying that this isn\'t a valuable topic, but I don\'t want to see it decay into a placeholder for someone who just wants to complain a lot.  Too much good stuff has been said here.  I\'m not flaming anyone, or blaming anyone, but the more time we spend discussing this, the more time we lose to regroup and rebuild.  And rebuilding is what\'s important here, is it not?

You know what?  I can\'t get the links to work.  Too bad.  :/  The threads are in General and Guilds...

[Shadowcast]

Here is what I see this rule ending up doing:
All the well organized guilds can recreate theyre guild easily, yes. But basically this keeps new guilds from being created. It is a lot harder to find four other people to join your guild when you dont have one yet than it sounds like most of you believe(at least thats how it sounds to me). The new guilds are needed to enhance RP. If we continue to have just old well built guilds then RP will decrease and it will cause much of the fun for guilds to decrease also. This rule also keeps small guilds from rrally being created. Small guilds are needed just as much as medium and large guilds. If a small guild loses a member then are deleted in 5 miniutes then that guild will most likely never be back again. These small guilds can add to the game, though little by each one, in the end, the added things will be great.

I agree that pointless, spam, and inactive guilds should be erased but it should be done in a different way to keep any of this from happening. Please understand what I am trying to say.

[DeathsAngel]

Yes true we did all we had to say about the topic and we\'r repeating and almost quoting our selves  8o

We can lock this one ?

EDIT : Jakob  u\'r link does\'nt work btw

[Karyuu]

Originally posted by Shadowcast
It is a lot harder to find four other people to join your guild when you dont have one yet than it sounds like most of you believe(at least thats how it sounds to me).

Can you please explain why it is harder? Under the previous system (ignoring guild-invite spams), whenever someone was curious about a guild or wanted to share his or her own guild with others, a conversation was started that explained things between parties, and information for further contact was shared. For example once the RP discussion ended, an OOC /tell would be sent with a guild website or forum address where the potentially interested individual could read more info and decide if the organization is truly interesting. I don\'t see how this new guild system changes this.

[provisionist1]

Originally posted by Karyuu

Originally posted by provisionist1
[...] the \"five minutes\" in which to recruit another four members is very irritating and even daunting [...]

Xirius, guilds are meant to be ready -with- five members at the time of creation A guildleader should not go on a random search for members after creating a guild, but before it. Guild promotion threads on the forum and roleplay within the game itself will help future guildleaders immensly.

Ok... Though as I then said if there were the four other members (five total) ready to go, and one of them has a computer crash (not an unlikely possibility) then there would be a loss of 20,000 just like that. I\'m not complaining, this new system is much more logical to what guilds and the system should be, but I do think five minutes is far too short a time. Even one hour would be great. I agree that several members should be found before the guild is formed formally, I just question the current logistics of this system.

Thanks, I\'m gonna try not to say anything else on the subject.

Xirius

[SuburbanPlankton]

Perhaps instead of gathering exacty 5 people and then starting a guild, it might be better to get 6 or 7, or even (gasp!) 10 people together before forming your guild.  That way you could have a 50% failure rate and still be OK.

That being said, I do agree that 5 minutes is too short a time; I too think a 24-hour grace period would be appropriate. But this is in order to accommodate players in different time zones, not to guard against computer crashes.

[Shadowcast]

Originally posted by Karyuu

Originally posted by Shadowcast
It is a lot harder to find four other people to join your guild when you dont have one yet than it sounds like most of you believe(at least thats how it sounds to me).

Can you please explain why it is harder? Under the previous system (ignoring guild-invite spams), whenever someone was curious about a guild or wanted to share his or her own guild with others, a conversation was started that explained things between parties, and information for further contact was shared. For example once the RP discussion ended, an OOC /tell would be sent with a guild website or forum address where the potentially interested individual could read more info and decide if the organization is truly interesting. I don\'t see how this new guild system changes this.

1. There are many people who want to join a guild. When they play with someone with a guild they can start the conversation, but if the dont know they have the guild they never will. Just SEEING the guild name below the players name can make it easier to have people join.
2. The people who want to make a new guild will have to go around and ask people to join their guild (which I heard eailier that it happened so much they got annoyed, and this might increase hearing that). Then people would most likely see no guild name and dont want to join or, if theyre lucky, may ask about it.
3. The guild master would also have to find 4 or more very trustworthy people to join to make the guild. This may take months or even years. Trusting someone cant be givin too lightly. Youll need to trust them to be there and to join before you create it.

This is why it will be harder for new guilds to be created than before.

[TheMinority]

a stable guild is built on trusted friends, as you said... however, what is the problem of waiting months to find the people? is there some rush to create a guild? if you still had the option to create a guild right now, how would it be different? you would still have to find more people you trust to join, and that could also take months. the only difference is that when you found one to join, you could give them a title right then and there, but that\'s nothing special.

as for recruiting new members by asking, here\'s a couple of tips: don\'t ask the ones who are already in a guild, and don\'t bug them. if you bug someone to join your guild, you\'re completely doing away with what i said before. a simple way to ask someone if they are interested is \"I am starting a guild soon, and i am looking for new members. Would you be interesting in hearing what we believe?\" and if the person says yes or maybe or something, you can proceed to tell them about your guild and see if you will trust them. and for those who would be annoyed by the constant asking can just say \"no\". easy as 3.14

and just waiting for someone to ask about your guild wouldn\'t get many members anyway. you have to be somewhat agressive and ask if you are just starting out... the large guilds have the advantage of having more members with the title (which kind tacks that name into the guild seekers mind), but your small guild will have to do some extra work by handing out fliers and whatnot.

starting a guild shouldn\'t be so simple, it should be more complicated as it would be in real life

[Thoronador]

Originally posted by TheMinority
however, what is the problem of waiting months to find the people? is there some rush to create a guild? if you still had the option to create a guild right now, how would it be different?

Well, there is possibly no rush to create a guild. But I think what Shadowcast means is the following:  if one had a guild before the wipe and before the introduction of this new rule, most members would expect this guild to be continued/ re-founded after the wipe. But if a Guild Master can\'t re-create this guild  due to the new rules, the former members (or some of them) might get the feeling their guild does not exist anymore, although the Guild Leader is willing to re-found his/her guild. The consequence is that some members change to another guild and therefore they can\'t be recruited by their original guild.

the large guilds have the advantage of having more members with the title (which kind tacks that name into the guild seekers mind), but your small guild will have to do some extra work by handing out fliers and whatnot.

That is one of the points where the new system becomes unfair. Sure the bigger guilds won\'t have much problems (if any) to establish their guild. But the smaller ones have to do much more efforts before they are even able to found a guild.

starting a guild shouldn\'t be so simple, it should be more complicated as it would be in real life

Starting a guild should not be too simple, yes. But making it too complicated to start a guild will definitely discourage players to found a new guild with its own beliefs and goals. This cannot really be what you want, can it?

[Moogie]

Since when is gathering 5 people together \"complicated\"? You poor, poor thing. *pats*

[Jakob]

I would guess that anyone who is having issues with gathering 5 people quickly are Americans.  No culture in history has had the type of \"I want it and I want it now\" type of mentality that we have here in the States.  I think this is actually kinda funny seeing that we Americans aren\'t the only impatient ones, but also seeing what happens when people are forced to actually take time to do something... :O

[Shadowcast]

Maybe we Americans are a bit impatient, but seriously would you want to wait months to start your guild. Yes the most focused people would be able to do this but not every guild should be well organized. It could be the goal of one guild to help smaller newer less organized guilds (who knows there are many different goals out there).
To tell the truth Id much rather see no minum member rule and have the paying rule be changed to a monthy/yearly payment (which could be payed just by the guild master or split between members automaticaly. This would solve the problem and still make it a bit easier for newer guilds to be formed

[Shadowcast]

do you see my point

[Karyuu]

No, I personally don\'t.

[...]but seriously would you want to wait months to start your guild.

I don\'t see why not? Many people already do. They spend weeks trying to come up with all the necessary organization, roleplaying story, goals, and policies. And these are the guilds that become successful and respected, no matter their alignment - because they spent something called effort. If this is too much for some people, they aren\'t worthy of being guildleaders, in my opinion. Guilds aren\'t a little collective of friends. They can become a collection of close friends, but that will never be and should never be their sole purpose. A guild to help out newbies is all nice and well, but if they lack structure, they won\'t help anyone.

It could be the goal of one guild to help smaller newer less organized guilds (who knows there are many different goals out there).

Yes, I was pondering this earlier, when someone mentioned that the current demanded price of 20k would be too much for a guild of bards, for example, who do not do battle. Well what do bards do? Entertain! Bards may want to look for a patron of their art, a sponsor. Isn\'t that a great beginning for roleplay? But for someone to help and sponsor something, they have to have the ability to help. What kind of guild of five members (or less) has the ability to help anyone?

It is still -very- easy for guilds to form. It just requires a little more of something that has always been required - roleplay. Interaction. Conversation. Organization.

Guilds will finally have to be formed properly.

[Shadowcast]

Originally posted by Karyuu
Guilds will finally have to be formed properly.

Here is another point:
I know you want all guilds to be well organized and all that, but tell me, how are these so-called \"well organized\" guilds ever going to learn from mistakes that a less organized guild can learn from. When you try to organize your guild from the beginning, you are baseing it off of what you have seen before. In turn, you never get to witness the mistakes that SHOULD have been made when they were able to be less organized. These mistakes could eventually happen in the future. One who does not learn from history is doomed to repeat it. If one was never able to learn from it then its more likely to happen.
Here is an example of this in real life. When US finally became free, they wanted to set up a government and country. The based some of theyre ideas off of another nation (an ancient one), which should be done but doesnt have to be. They quickly ran into problems. They fixed some of them and learned from them. All good for the Americans. Lets jump ahead a couple hundred years: people were complaining about alcohol and wanted it to be made illeagal. Later they banned it and in turn that was a mistake. Crime and illeagal activity went up because of it. They finally fixed and learned from it (I think they did it again before they finally learned from it but Im not to sure). They wont repeat that mistake again. Now a contry who tries to be well organized like the Americans are now from the beginning, if they hear such complaints they might ban alcohol there and inturn have to fix that mistake, but before they can they are taken over easily due to the turmoil in the country or too many people moved from the country. If a bad mistake happens to a guild too many members might leave or, they cant really do anything because of the turmoil.

In the story the Americans had an advantage over the other county because they were able to learn from mistake when they were less organized.

Dont think Im saying all this because my guild is new or something. We arnt and already have learned from mistakes. I just see that now, while at first they will be fine, the new guilds may eventually fall from the mistakes they should have, but could never learn from.