Author Topic: An Invitation to all Guild Leaders  (Read 11053 times)

Drey

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« Reply #60 on: October 12, 2005, 11:01:51 pm »
First off, when you made this thread i thought you cant go telling people what to do its up to guild leaders how they run their guilds what say should you have in the matter. then i decided not to post, but i still think the same.

i see how you call it an invitation... but that means nothing.

one point of positive i do have to say, if you want to be a bunch of people who follow the same beleifs what about creating allience things like their used to be. i know nothing about these as they were beofore my time.. the only one that comes to mind is citadel of the light not sure what they were about or what happened to them or even if they are the sort of thing i mean but there you go.

also i only read what i thought was worth reading.

Edit: as it seems to be the fashion in this thread...

 please delete
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zanzibar

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« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2005, 11:10:38 pm »
The Alliance system is more for the purpose of guild wars... except that since the wipe, they no longer work for guild wars.

This seems more like a treaty than anything else.
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Drey

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« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2005, 12:03:57 am »
yeah... when you sign a treaty you create an allience sort of thing. but i still think its stupid.
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r.guppy

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« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2005, 02:53:07 am »
I am pleased to inform all that i have just witnessed a duel done in the fashion we are discussing well done The chosen few and The Klyros of Fury :]

Karyuu

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« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2005, 03:05:46 am »
Erm. Well... \"fair\" duels have always taken place here and there. This isn\'t exactly new.. :) Just not widely agreed upon.
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Drey

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« Reply #65 on: October 13, 2005, 10:46:30 am »
what karyuu said, also more depending on your view of fair... i payed someone to let me kill hmi before but it was all for a reason.

also by the whole allience thing i mean a group or organisation... alliences dont just have to be for wars. just a group of guilds who want to follow the same ideas sort of thing. i think organisation is a better word.
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r.guppy

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« Reply #66 on: October 13, 2005, 11:28:44 am »
A small point potions / food in 2. should be agreed opon as well.

Pip

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« Reply #67 on: October 13, 2005, 01:26:09 pm »
done - edit 7 Added to point 2. (potions and e)
(see first post)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2005, 11:10:45 pm by Pip »

Drey

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« Reply #68 on: October 13, 2005, 02:38:07 pm »
and why do you have to post like that. if i did it everyone would be screaming spam and sirens would go off.
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r.guppy

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« Reply #69 on: October 13, 2005, 03:53:13 pm »
Sorry for Pips short post but she had to dash to a appointment will get here to expand here post when she returns  :)

Sensotaka

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« Reply #70 on: October 14, 2005, 05:58:18 am »
For those interested, I present the Code Duello. It covered affairs of honor between gentlemen both in Europe and the America\'s (particularly in the south). Should members of the realm choose to civilize dueling, I suggest that they adapt this code and use it as a model. Bear in mind though that the Code Duello was used only by men of honor. To those who have no honor it will be worthless.

SensoTaka Kishu : Leader of the Defenders

The Code Duello, covering the practice of dueling and points of honor, was drawn up and settled at Clonmel Summer Assizes, 1777, by gentlemen-delegates of Tipperary, Galway, Sligo, Mayo and Roscommon, and prescribed for general adoption throughout Ireland. The Code was generally also followed in England and on the Continent with some slight variations. In America, the principal rules were followed, although occasionally there were some glaring deviations.

Rule 1. The first offense requires the first apology, though the retort may have been more offensive than the insult. Example: A tells B he is impertinent, etc. B retorts that he lies; yet A must make the first apology because he gave the first offense, and then (after one fire) B may explain away the retort by a subsequent apology.

Rule 2. But if the parties would rather fight on, then after two shots each (but in no case before), B may explain first, and A apologize afterward.

N.B. The above rules apply to all cases of offenses in retort not of stronger class than the example.

Rule 3. If a doubt exist who gave the first offense, the decision rests with the seconds; if they won\'t decide, or can\'t agree, the matter must proceed to two shots, or to a hit, if the challenger require it.

Rule 4. When the lie direct is the first offense, the aggressor must either beg pardon in express terms; exchange two shots previous to apology; or three shots followed up by explanation; or fire on till a severe hit be received by one party or the other.

Rule 5. As a blow is strictly prohibited under any circumstances among gentlemen, no verbal apology can be received for such an insult. The alternatives, therefore -- the offender handing a cane to the injured party, to be used on his own back, at the same time begging pardon; firing on until one or both are disabled; or exchanging three shots, and then asking pardon without proffer of the cane.

If swords are used, the parties engage until one is well blooded, disabled, or disarmed; or until, after receiving a wound, and blood being drawn, the aggressor begs pardon.

N.B. A disarm is considered the same as a disable. The disarmer may (strictly) break his adversary\'s sword; but if it be the challenger who is disarmed, it is considered as ungenerous to do so.

In the case the challenged be disarmed and refuses to ask pardon or atone, he must not be killed, as formerly; but the challenger may lay his own sword on the aggressor\'s shoulder, then break the aggressor\'s sword and say, \"I spare your life!\" The challenged can never revive the quarrel -- the challenger may.

Rule 6. If A gives B the lie, and B retorts by a blow (being the two greatest offenses), no reconciliation can take place till after two discharges each, or a severe hit; after which B may beg A\'s pardon humbly for the blow and then A may explain simply for the lie; because a blow is never allowable, and the offense of the lie, therefore, merges in it. (See preceding rules.)

N.B. Challenges for undivulged causes may be reconciled on the ground, after one shot. An explanation or the slightest hit should be sufficient in such cases, because no personal offense transpired.

Rule 7. But no apology can be received, in any case, after the parties have actually taken ground, without exchange of fires.

Rule 8. In the above case, no challenger is obliged to divulge his cause of challenge (if private) unless required by the challenged so to do before their meeting.

Rule 9. All imputations of cheating at play, races, etc., to be considered equivalent to a blow; but may be reconciled after one shot, on admitting their falsehood and begging pardon publicly.

Rule 10. Any insult to a lady under a gentleman\'s care or protection to be considered as, by one degree, a greater offense than if given to the gentleman personally, and to be regulated accordingly.

Rule 11. Offenses originating or accruing from the support of ladies\' reputations, to be considered as less unjustifiable than any others of the same class, and as admitting of slighter apologies by the aggressor: this to be determined by the circumstances of the case, but always favorable to the lady.

Rule 12. In simple, unpremeditated recontres with the smallsword, or couteau de chasse, the rule is -- first draw, first sheath, unless blood is drawn; then both sheath, and proceed to investigation.

Rule 13. No dumb shooting or firing in the air is admissible in any case. The challenger ought not to have challenged without receiving offense; and the challenged ought, if he gave offense, to have made an apology before he came on the ground; therefore, children\'s play must be dishonorable on one side or the other, and is accordingly prohibited.

Rule 14. Seconds to be of equal rank in society with the principals they attend, inasmuch as a second may either choose or chance to become a principal, and equality is indispensible.

Rule 15. Challenges are never to be delivered at night, unless the party to be challenged intend leaving the place of offense before morning; for it is desirable to avoid all hot-headed proceedings.

Rule 16. The challenged has the right to choose his own weapon, unless the challenger gives his honor he is no swordsman; after which, however, he can decline any second species of weapon proposed by the challenged.

Rule 17. The challenged chooses his ground; the challenger chooses his distance; the seconds fix the time and terms of firing.

Rule 18. The seconds load in presence of each other, unless they give their mutual honors they have charged smooth and single, which should be held sufficient.

Rule 19. Firing may be regulated -- first by signal; secondly, by word of command; or thirdly, at pleasure -- as may be agreeable to the parties. In the latter case, the parties may fire at their reasonable leisure, but second presents and rests are strictly prohibited.

Rule 20. In all cases a miss-fire is equivalent to a shot, and a snap or non-cock is to be considered as a miss-fire.

Rule 21. Seconds are bound to attempt a reconciliation before the meeting takes place, or after sufficient firing or hits, as specified.

Rule 22. Any wound sufficient to agitate the nerves and necessarily make the hand shake, must end the business for that day.

Rule 23. If the cause of the meeting be of such a nature that no apology or explanation can or will be received, the challenged takes his ground, and calls on the challenger to proceed as he chooses; in such cases, firing at pleasure is the usual practice, but may be varied by agreement.

Rule 24. In slight cases, the second hands his principal but one pistol; but in gross cases, two, holding another case ready charged in reserve.

Rule 25. Where seconds disagree, and resolve to exchange shots themselves, it must be at the same time and at right angles with their principals, thus:

If with swords, side by side, with five paces interval.

N.B. All matters and doubts not herein mentioned will be explained and cleared up by application to the committee, who meet alternately at Clonmel and Galway, at the quarter sessions, for that purpose.

zanzibar

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« Reply #71 on: October 14, 2005, 06:22:31 am »
meh.  Might does not equal right.  Who is an isn\'t honourable is a matter of personal opinion.  How honour is expressed and respected is also dependant on the individual.

If you\'re out for revenge, why not seek it at any cost?  All this structure seems suffocating.
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Askr

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« Reply #72 on: October 14, 2005, 05:59:15 pm »
I have read the entire thread, and there are many valid points.  I understand what is trying to be done here, and would agree that some sort of order should be established. That being said, I do believe this is entirely the wrong way to go about it.  As such, I would like to give some reasoning for this and make a few suggestions.

1.  There are a few guilds that are not going to follow the rules regardless of their alignment and/or personal views on the subject.  The leaders and members are just not going to take that much interest in it in the long run.  Once these guilds begin disrupting the attempted order, things are going to fall apart and everything will resort back to \'normal\'.

2.  In an RP light, there is no reason for any guild to follow these guidelines except for lawful guilds.  Even then, it will only be the point of lawful guilds that are dedicated to law and order that would follow such rules.  Other lawful guilds that take a stance similar to \'tradition before laws of the land\' would not find it necessary to follow these rules if they do not mirror their tradition in an RP sense.  Neutral guilds should have no stake in the matter as they would be more inclined to keeping balance between the law and the chaos.

3.  Law and order can only be recognized and demonstrated as having meaning if people are either forced to obey (punishment) or have a deep seated reason to obey (tradition, manners of honor, allegiences, religion, etc) without punishment.  At this time, little of either exists.  I have seen many people duel in the Plaza and wars spill over into the Plaza.  Even if guild leaders do get onto their members, it starts again the minute everyone relaxes.  Likewise, there are those few RPers who attempt to explain the \'laws\' to the duellers, but for the most part they are ignored.  There exists no power (regardless of who possesses it) that makes obeying the laws/rules desirous.

If you truly want all guilds involved and want the possibility of the rules/laws serving a purpose other than fuel for complaints, I would suggest getting all guilds and as many non-guild members involved as possible.    What you need first are laws... all towns, countries, and communities have laws.  In light of this, not all towns, countries, and communities have policing forces or judicial bodies or even centralized governments.  But they all do have laws and defined punishment for breaking those laws.  These need to be realistic laws, not just focused on duelling and guild wars.  As an example, make the carrying of weapons inside of the Hydlaa walls illegal.  Therefore duelling inside Hydlaa walls would be illegal as well as murder and so on.   Don\'t just focus on one minor detail, but upon the whole world available for RP.  By doing so, you give more credence to the alignments, more justification to the guilds in performing their goals, etc.

As far as policing forces are concerned there are many options.   But, again, I would say make sure that everyone* is involved.  Have a member or a couple of members from each guild serve as part of some policing unit.  Equal representation will help keep balance.  Also, insure they have some sort of authority, both within their guild and outside in the matters of upholding the laws.  If needs be, create a council -- again of members of each guild -- that are responsible within the respective guilds for assisting the \'police\' and ensuring that the police are not abusing their powers.  It would also be wise to have these laws available (in the library?).  With most newbies they are completely unaware of the unwritten rules much less any actually agreed upon rules.  Have a role created in which there are certain people who recite the laws... in the Plaza, in the case of laws being broken, etc.

To make the punishments a bit more realistic, have the police force the only group allowed to use weapons in town.  Therefore any law-breakers must fear capture and/or punishment, which may be as simple as sending them to the DR.  They will eventually get tired of getting sent there.  If a specific guild member causes too much havoc, have them removed.

note: A bit of common sense should be used here in considering who \'everyone\' should be.  Obviously not every newbie that walks into Hydlaa need be considered.  But there are many non-affiliated members that are serious and should be taken into consideration, not just guild leaders.
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Bereror

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« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2005, 07:46:01 pm »
In an RP light, there can be guilds and characters that are lawful and others that are not. They can either follow the laws or ignore them.

But the rules here are not for RP -- they are for players (or actors) behind these guilds and characters.

Role playing is a theater with characters and actors. If one character is rude against another, it doesn\'t mean that they cannot have a beer together after the spectacle is over. They just follow the script (or create one in the RP world), they know it and there is nothing personal.

Just the script needs to be explained to other actors. If you look at the rules in the first post by Pip, they make perfect sense. They are just limiting your character\'s or guild\'s actions to make sure that there are no misunderstandings.

If the script is not explained or some actors didn\'t get it, actions on the stage will continue behind the scenes. Please remember, there are many spectators (newcomers to the game), who have no idea, what is going on. They think that\'s the way how they should act in this game.
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Askr

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« Reply #74 on: October 14, 2005, 10:05:12 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Bereror
In an RP light, there can be guilds and characters that are lawful and others that are not. They can either follow the laws or ignore them.

But the rules here are not for RP -- they are for players (or actors) behind these guilds and characters.

Role playing is a theater with characters and actors. If one character is rude against another, it doesn\'t mean that they cannot have a beer together after the spectacle is over. They just follow the script (or create one in the RP world), they know it and there is nothing personal.

Just the script needs to be explained to other actors. If you look at the rules in the first post by Pip, they make perfect sense. They are just limiting your character\'s or guild\'s actions to make sure that there are no misunderstandings.

If the script is not explained or some actors didn\'t get it, actions on the stage will continue behind the scenes. Please remember, there are many spectators (newcomers to the game), who have no idea, what is going on. They think that\'s the way how they should act in this game.



I know what RP is, but thanks for that description.  I have read the rules presented by Pip and frankly I don\'t think they make perfect sense.  I don\'t know how many times I have read that PS is an RP world... there is even a good thread on it right now ... so this whole debate seems a bit off to me.

But, you do illustrate the problem very well.  This whole nonsense of a script.  Our lives are not scripted (take that as IRL or IC, whichever you want), we live them according to the circumstance that arises within the environment we inhabit.  If we limit what a player can do with his/her character without creating an in game reason for that, then we have done nothing but limit the ever-so-important RP focus of the game.  If we live according to some idea of a script, we aren\'t actually attempting to live roles but to just meet out predetermined encounters.  It goes from being an MMORPG with the potential for every possible situation to your basic every day console RPG.  The only difference is the luxury of multi-player action, but without the  interaction.

Make the rules relevant, make them laws, give them substance.   To quote you \"They can either follow the laws or ignore them.\"  If that is the stance you are taking then what good will they be?  It is this position on the subject that has created the problem in the first place.  

The rules are currently being ignored, so why create more of the same rules to be ignored?  Just a thought.
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