Get rid of the random weapons.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Dregan Tepis

Originally posted by zanzibar
Actually, there is a lot of push here to get rid of visible stats completely.  That means that no player can see the speed and slash of weapons they\'re carrying.  Instead, they have to rely on the advice of others, on testing out the weapons, or from common sense.

It\'s the way it was before the wipe.  But now, people just \"examine\" their weapons and instantly know exactly how their weapons behave.  I and many others find it unrealistic and even unpleasant because it took away colour from the game.

Ah yes, another \"good old days\" statement.

In a single sentence, you destroyed my argument.  I am left without any defense.

When you see that a dagger is a \"sharp dagger\" or a \"fire dagger of talad\", you\'re going to have an idea that you have a weapon which is marginally more powerful than the norm, or much more powerful than the norm.  A dagger which has a negative modifier in the name would be less powerful by common sense.  From experience, people know that iron weapons are 5 times normal.  And so on.

But that\'s as good as it should get.  You shouldn\'t be able to look at a weapon and see that the slash is exactly 45.50 with a spead of 2.20.  A dagger is faster than a long sword by common sense, not by a factor of 1.5714285714285714285714285714286.

Yes.  AD&D had numbers too.  And the numbers should stay in Planeshift as part of the mechanics, but they shouldn\'t be visible to players except for play-testing purposes.  In a lot of RP games I\'ve played, most of the dice rolling is done by the dungeon keeper and the results are hidden from the players.  The mechanics are there, but they\'re hidden.

[Dregan Tepis]

Originally posted by zanzibar
In a single sentence, you destroyed my argument.  I am left without any defense.

That was more of a joke, not a destroyer. Boy, some of you people are really uptight, You should try to have more fun in your lives. Maybe try playing a game or something...

All I\'m trying to say is there is stats in real life. You are correct on your common sense theory. It is common sense that a race car is faster than a tractor. But how much faster is car A than car B? Why is it faster? What engine is the winner using? The same is true for physical characteristics. If swimmer A weighs 187.5 lbs, and swimmer B weighs 187.8, but shaves his body before a meet resulting in a loss of .8 lbs, and they have equal technique, strength, and stamina, who will win? And the same still applies for this sword is made of this, and therefore swings this much faster, and that is why I\'m staring down a gladiator for it. Or, if I put my characters limited time online in front of a creature I want the skin from for a quest, I for one want to know that XXXX amount of money I paid for XXXX sword of XXXX with XXXX encrusted handle was worth it. Or else it\'s just a miserable walk back from the death realm with a heavy sword.

Look, if your trying to encourage role play, I would highly suggest that you do it in another means than discouraging something people enjoy, and a good reason they came to this game (playing, killing). Maybe try to include them on hunts, and insist they come to the temple with you afterward to give thanks for a good hunt. Flirt more, drink more, whatever. But don\'t spend your time buzz killing the people who enjoy this game for different reasons than you. I\'ve seen a lot of good people leave this game because they didn\'t know squat about RP, and were driven away by elitist attitudes that said \"their kind shouldn\'t be here, because this isn\'t that type of a game\". I thank all that have taken time and been patient with me as I learned, and encourage more of you to do the same.

[Suno_Regin]

Dregan, I\'ve read all of your arguements, and your an idiot...This is a roleplaying game, and let me quote you on this:

considering how this is a fantasy game, then why would you want it to be more realistic?

We are trying to encourage it to be realistic, all your doing is telling the Devs to add more numbers, so when you sell your weapon in the auction channel, you can say.

\"Selling Fire Polished Bear\'s Broad Sword of the Wirlwind, defensive power 99, attack power 83, speed 932, endurance 438, etc...\"

Not realistic in the least, by looking at a weapon, we don\'t see numbers, we see how well-made it is. We would have to test speed in battle, and the speed would reflect on how strong or fast the wielder is. If there were more numbers, this game would turn into another Runescape, where you belong.

[Dregan Tepis]

Originally posted by Suno_Regin
Dregan, I\'ve read all of your arguements, and your an idiot...

YES! The first mudslinging whiner has thrown!

We are trying to encourage it to be realistic, all your doing is telling the Dev\'s to add more numbers

No, I stated my opinion, and the Dev\'s will do what they want. All I am arguing for is to keep the numbers they have.

so when you sell your weapon in the auction channel, you can say. \"Selling Fire Polished Bear\'s Broad Sword of the Wirlwind, defensive power 99, attack power 83, speed 932,

Next time you see me auction something, let me know. I would be interested in seeing that. The few extra weapons I get go to friends I\'ve met in the game, and deserving, polite people. Not name calling poopie-heads.

endurance 438, etc...\"

Since when does a sword have endurance?

Not realistic in the least, by looking at a weapon, we don\'t see numbers, we see how well-made it is.

Have you ever bought a stainless-steel knife for your kitchen, just to have it rust in the dishwasher? Looked pretty good in the store, didn\'t it?

this game would turn into another Runescape, where you belong.

Never played it. However you are doing me a favor by proving my earlier point;

Originally posted by Dregan Tepis
I\'ve seen a lot of good people leave this game because they didn\'t know squat about RP, and were driven away by elitist attitudes that said \"their kind shouldn\'t be here, because this isn\'t that type of a game\".

Now, if you are done name calling and puffing out your opinions like so much gas, I would like to get back to the original discussion and the reasons I said what I did. If you would like to rephrase your argument to suit what is being said here about random weapon looting and the related topic of getting rid of absolute numbers, please feel free. If you have anything further to say about me or my opinions that is not informed, thought out, or related to the topic, please stop by the \"Dregan Tepis is an idiot\" thread.

[Suno_Regin]

With every answer, all you did was say how you \"weren\'t\" an idiot, you never gave any points on how I\'m wrong.

And as for the endurance thing, swords can be used to defend from other swords, and can also break, which might happen in the future.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Dregan Tepis

Originally posted by zanzibar
In a single sentence, you destroyed my argument.  I am left without any defense.

That was more of a joke, not a destroyer. Boy, some of you people are really uptight, You should try to have more fun in your lives. Maybe try playing a game or something...

All I\'m trying to say is there is stats in real life. You are correct on your common sense theory. It is common sense that a race car is faster than a tractor. But how much faster is car A than car B? Why is it faster? What engine is the winner using? The same is true for physical characteristics. If swimmer A weighs 187.5 lbs, and swimmer B weighs 187.8, but shaves his body before a meet resulting in a loss of .8 lbs, and they have equal technique, strength, and stamina, who will win? And the same still applies for this sword is made of this, and therefore swings this much faster, and that is why I\'m staring down a gladiator for it. Or, if I put my characters limited time online in front of a creature I want the skin from for a quest, I for one want to know that XXXX amount of money I paid for XXXX sword of XXXX with XXXX encrusted handle was worth it. Or else it\'s just a miserable walk back from the death realm with a heavy sword.

Look, if your trying to encourage role play, I would highly suggest that you do it in another means than discouraging something people enjoy, and a good reason they came to this game (playing, killing). Maybe try to include them on hunts, and insist they come to the temple with you afterward to give thanks for a good hunt. Flirt more, drink more, whatever. But don\'t spend your time buzz killing the people who enjoy this game for different reasons than you. I\'ve seen a lot of good people leave this game because they didn\'t know squat about RP, and were driven away by elitist attitudes that said \"their kind shouldn\'t be here, because this isn\'t that type of a game\". I thank all that have taken time and been patient with me as I learned, and encourage more of you to do the same.

Good lord.  Swords don\'t come with stats saying \"I deal exactly 4.75 slash and I\'m 5 percent faster than a shortsword\".  And the swimmers?  The race could go either way depending on a large number of factors.  It\'s not a simple numbers game.  And no, I\'m not saying that numbers should be taken out of the game!  I\'m saying that the numbers should be invisible to players!

And you\'re accusing me of wanting to take PVP out of the game?  Excuse me?  Do you have any idea who I RP in game?

[Stronith]

Originally posted by zanzibar
Excuse me?  Do you have any idea who I RP in game?

Just got to say, that made me laugh out loud a little...

[Ecolem]

Originally posted by stfrn

Originally posted by zanzibar

Originally posted by Gentar
Get rid of the randomly generated item weapon system. Need I even explain? Planeshift constantly yearns for realism, so this is about the most unrealistic thing added next to the leveling sytem. It seems to me like a cheap way of getting around making weapon models. Its just ridiculous when one broadsword hits a 7 and another that looks identical, hits a 4000. I\'m sorry but it just seems ridiculous.

At least if they are going to do it make the changes small compared to the original weapon. For instamce, maybe you can pick up a rusty falchion that has slightly negative stats, or maybe a sharpened flachion that has a few bonus stats. Not some crazy \"Bear\'s Polished Dagger\" that hits 500\'s.

Know what else is unrealistic?  Killing someone and not being able to take their possessions.

Almost as unrealistic as viewing combat as way to progress.

You know what else is unrealistic...PS  8o

[Dregan Tepis]

Originally posted by zanzibar
And no, I\'m not saying that numbers should be taken out of the game!  I\'m saying that the numbers should be invisible to players!

And you\'re accusing me of wanting to take PVP out of the game?  Excuse me?  Do you have any idea who I RP in game?

And I am trying to say that I believe that they should be visible to players.
I am not accusing you of anything.
No, I don\'t know who you role play.

Zanzibar, I have a different opinion than you, why is everyone upset with that? As I said before, some of you guys really need to relax. Having a different opinion and stating it does not mean I am attacking you. Other than that last spat, I have no problem with you and think you have a right to express your opinion. Mine is just different.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Dregan Tepis

Originally posted by zanzibar
And no, I\'m not saying that numbers should be taken out of the game!  I\'m saying that the numbers should be invisible to players!

And you\'re accusing me of wanting to take PVP out of the game?  Excuse me?  Do you have any idea who I RP in game?

And I am trying to say that I believe that they should be visible to players.
I am not accusing you of anything.
No, I don\'t know who you role play.

Zanzibar, I have a different opinion than you, why is everyone upset with that? As I said before, some of you guys really need to relax. Having a different opinion and stating it does not mean I am attacking you. Other than that last spat, I have no problem with you and think you have a right to express your opinion. Mine is just different.

All you did was repeat your opinion without saying anything to back it up.  You didn\'t address the criticisms I had of your opinions either....

You have a different opinion than me.  Who bloody cares?  What matters is why you have the opinion you do so that we can understand eachother, debate, and then maybe produce something new and useful.

[Dregan Tepis]

Originally posted by zanzibar
What matters is why you have the opinion you do so that we can understand each other, debate, and then maybe produce something new and useful.

That is probably the most useful thing said in this thread. I agree with what you stated above, and will try to fulfill your request.

The reason I have the opinion that I do is that I cannot fathom having no clue to what the capabilities are of an item / own personal abilities, be that in a game or real life. I like it because this is how I determine the purchases in my own life. I prefer to have an idea of what something / myself can do so that I can make educated decisions before I act. You do make a very good point with;

I and many others find it unrealistic and even unpleasant because it took away colour from the game.

Yes, there are certain things in life and this game you won\'t / shouldn\'t know about. However, anyone that has ever read a product review knows that a system of evaluating strength / weaknesses for a product with a number system can be useful if done correctly. The reader has not seen and may not be able to put their hands on until after they order it. I see the same thing here. Would you like to know the true abilities of you and your weapon before, or after the death realm.

You do also make a good point with this statement;

A dagger is faster than a long sword by common sense, not by a factor of 1.5714285714285714285714285714286

It may be an exaggeration, but you are right in the fact that whittling this game down to calculator and #2 pencil would be a bad thing. But I would still like to see things listed out with fair accuracy. And I do like the present weight, speed, and damage system for all the reasons I discussed. And if given a chance to vote, that?s what I would vote for.

I also think that special weapons glowing (as mentioned earlier) is a good idea for magical ones, but puts a graphic strain that I don\'t think anybody wants to deal with until the code is more stable. Nor do I think mouse-over is a good idea yet (also suggested before), as it then leads to the question of wanting to look at someone else?s items. I don\'t want to cause a problem by fixing a different one...

But you do also suggest \"produce something new and useful\", so how about this for my second choice;

Remove the number system from view, but replace it with something else. Keep the same principal, but use a more generalized description. So instead of \"weight 4, speed 3, quality 1, damage 54 slash\", how about \"heavy sword, slow, good quality, massive slash, very low blunt\". There would be a spread of a few numbers for each level of description, so that daggers and short swords might be in the same weight category, but broadswords and long swords are together in another. This would still give people like me a good idea, but it would eliminate the absolute numbers for others. What do you think zanzibar? (And others)

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Dregan Tepis
The reason I have the opinion that I do is that I cannot fathom having no clue to what the capabilities are of an item

Problem solved!  A sharp sword is better than a normal sword.  An iron sword is better than a basic sword.  A icy or scorched is better still, with fire, dark, and frosty being among the best.  There are many other variants which can have their strengths tested by trying them out.  Being able to see the exact numbers is not necessary.

Originally posted by Dregan Tepis

A dagger is faster than a long sword by common sense, not by a factor of 1.5714285714285714285714285714286

It may be an exaggeration, but...

It\'s not an exageration.  A dagger is 1.5714285714285714285714285714286 times faster than a long sword.

Originally posted by Dregan Tepis
Remove the number system from view, but replace it with something else. Keep the same principal, but use a more generalized description. So instead of \"weight 4, speed 3, quality 1, damage 54 slash\", how about \"heavy sword, slow, good quality, massive slash, very low blunt\".

How is this any different from what I was suggesting in the first place?

[Gentar]

hey everyone thanks alot for creating absolutely no interseting discussion at  all. Zanzibar thanks. Im glad you have ways of making sarcastic remarks about the things others say, and that you know how to argue abou things that dont need to be argued about.

[Cha0s]

Or... or... how about an Appraise skill? Everyone can tell that something is a \"sword\" or a \"dagger\" etc even if they have no appraise skill. If you have a little appraise skill, you can also tell that it\'s a \"scimitar\" or \"curved dagger.\" If you have a decent level appraise skill, you can tell that you hold a \"Sharp Scimitar of Fire\" or a \"Curved Dagger of Ice.\" If you\'re even better you can assign stats to these weapons (with a margin of error, decreasing as you get more levels in Appraise). If you have 100% appraise skill, you still have a margin of error, but it is very small.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Gentar
hey everyone thanks alot for creating absolutely no interseting discussion at  all. Zanzibar thanks. Im glad you have ways of making sarcastic remarks about the things others say, and that you know how to argue abou things that dont need to be argued about.

Thankyou for your constructive contribution to the discussion.  

Originally posted by Cha0s
Or... or... how about an Appraise skill? Everyone can tell that something is a \"sword\" or a \"dagger\" etc even if they have no appraise skill. If you have a little appraise skill, you can also tell that it\'s a \"scimitar\" or \"curved dagger.\" If you have a decent level appraise skill, you can tell that you hold a \"Sharp Scimitar of Fire\" or a \"Curved Dagger of Ice.\" If you\'re even better you can assign stats to these weapons (with a margin of error, decreasing as you get more levels in Appraise). If you have 100% appraise skill, you still have a margin of error, but it is very small.

That would be like an \"identify\" function built into a lot of other games.  Not a bad idea perhaps for certain things, but I wonder how far one should go for it.  For instance, how \"skilled\" do you have to be to realize that a dagger is sharp, or that it is made out of gold?  And there\'s still the question of knowing the potential damage of the weapon.

I think that the names for weapons right now are pretty ugly.  I mean, if you see a broadsword from 20 paces away, what are you going to see?  \"Oh my, a blue steel broadsword of talad!\"  Or, \"Oh my, a broadsword!  I better get a closer look to see if there\'s anything special about it!\"

In a system like that, then all broadswords would simply be named \"Broadsword\".  But in the information window, you would see the modifiers (blue, steel, fire, razormale, rat\'s, etc).  If you were to then encorporate your idea into that, then with higher levels in that particular skill, more detailed information would appear in the window.  That means that you might get a \"Broadsword\", but because of your skill level, you don\'t know what you really have!  That opens up the possibility of selling the sword for less than it\'s worth, which adds interest and colour to the game.  I think I like your idea after all!