Thus it ends.

[Tarel]

An IRC conversation I had with Talad.
I asked him a couple of times if he could make some changes to the GM team, like more GM's and more GM's with event-commands, all those times he redirected me to Uyaem.

From the conversation I understood that he doesn't bother about GM team changes, and Uyaem should just handle all that.
Uyaem is the leader of the GM team after all.

First of all, I don't understand how Uyaem would have all that decisive power when Talad was so very clear when the team was reformed that control of the GMs rested in the hands of the devs.

I can confirm it, Karyuu.
Thomphoenix spoke with Talad in IRC.
While they both were speaking, Talad spoke to the Gm-team too.
Talad said, that Uyaem and Kerol are in charge of the GM-team.
Talad also said that Thomphoenix should talk to them,
instead of with Talad, because Talad is very busy and does not interfere/like
to be bothered with GM-stuff.

[Verrliit]

while I like your suggestion of /deputizing trusted players, what fair method is there to see who is trusted or not without being blamed for favoritism or power abuse?

Fair is pretty easy.

Anyone who has logged more than a set number of hours, would be fair.

Leaders of guilds, who have kept their guild going for more than a set number of months, would also be fair.

Players who have more than a set number of other players, not all in the same guild, who vouch for them, would be fair as well.

Any of these are good enough, and even if there are ways to exploit them, it won't make a difference.

So I vote we do them all.


Trusted is also easy.

Those who betray their trust will quickly be known, and could easily be removed by more than some set number of players.


As for the GMs being blamed for favoritism or power abuse, this is also quite simple.

Don't involve them in any way.

All of the above can be done as a server function.


~Verrliit~

[Karyuu]

No offense, but I find that laughable

I'm going to go and laugh now.

I know you'd like to give GM powers to players and eliminate GMs entirely, but you're living in another world, Verrliit. Please think sensibly.

[Xordan]

Anyone who has logged more than a set number of hours, would be fair.

Being logged on for a long period of time doesn't qualifiy you in anything... except needing to get out more in the extreme cases. I would never give someone extra powers just because they've been ingame for a long time. Same with the guild leader one. There are probably a lot of unsuitable (idiots in some cases) people who stay ingame for a long time some of them just grinding skills stats and tria.

[ThomPhoenix]

There are individuals who have simply proven themselves in the community, they could be recruited to participate with a GM in an event, of course that person would lose his powers after the event or after a relog, but that's how /deputize works at the moment already.

[Easton]

I think we might be looking past the actual point here..

I think...

The point is: Proglin is a normal player with normal rights and normal access to everything that all players have access to. He cannot spawn items, he cannot affect npcs, or port people, or anything of the sort. He is normal. He created some incredible events in his relatively short time here. A large majority of normal players have participated or heard of or watched these events and enjoyed them in some way, shape, or form.

Now...

If people who have exceptional access to things like, spawning items, controlling npcs etc.. cannot put together one (1) event by themselves, then i have to say it is a complete and utter failure to the community. (i am aware that not all GMs have all rights) Now, as previously stated, i love the GMs for the most part. I think they are some of the hardest working people in the community, and i can easily appreciate the thought that everyone has their own timezone and schedule etc.. But i just find it hard to believe that not one event has been created by the GM team for a long time. In my personal opinion, more than a few on the GM team could not be GMs and the whole team would be better off. Its like useless weight in my opinion. And the GMs i am talking about are the ones who spend all their time in IRC or on other games, and only come in to PS to check out the new features in the latest update.

I once asked a GM if i could be ported to the DR or anywhere because due to the new update, i was frozen on a map, and couldn't even use /die or anything. The response: "I'm busy" I later found out they were busy playing another game and sitting in IRC. So essentially i find that the good GMs (the one's possibly thinking about making an event) are limited by the bad ones (the ones who don't care and just want to see "Game Master" written above their head.

Suggestion: Weed out the GMs who haven't logged in for x amount of time or who cannot produce evidence of any sort of care for the PS community. Rework the GM rules/permissions. Change something. Obviously something is wrong.

I love this community to death and im tired of seeing quality members leaving, quitting, fading away, or whatever because of a few annoying, rude, and useless people.

Easton Ghent

[ThomPhoenix]

Though your points have already been mentioned, spread over these 7 pages (I don't blame you for not reading and memorizing them all, hehe), you do have a very valid point there.

[Akaye]

No one has time for the GM team right now, so we make do as best as we can. We just got another long-wanted member (three cheers for Akaye!) and this will definitely help.

Thanks Karyuu!  Hello everyone. Some of you know me as the character Zorbels in the game. Well I have finally had my interview with Talad and am now apart of the GM team. I joined to help the Gm team for many reasons but the most important to me was the roleplay events. 

That being said I am going to work my little butt off and try to get some events going on, but this isn't going to happen over night. I need to clear somethings with Talad and I also now have a full time job. I am very commited to this game though and plan on helping the Gm team with roleplay events as much as possible. 

This next part is abit off topic but maybe it will inspire some people to not always look to the Gm's to entertain them with events. You should all know (Especially the players who have been around awhile) that you don't need the Gm's to have a roleplay event. All you need is a good imagination and drive to get the events going. I can say truly as the character Zorbels, not once did any of the roleplay events I was apart of or that I held had the help of a gm (With one exception: The shadows roleplay with the war at the end, and thanks to Karyuu she made the event a little more fun). I did the events with friends, and had help from other players for a full year.

What bothers me the most is half the people I see complaining about the lack of gm roleplay events, are people who are fully capable of doing roleplay events themselves being darn good roleplayers and seem to have WAY more time to put hours into the game than the Gm's currently do at this point. In short they are doing the best that they can, if you think you can do better, well then apply to become Gm. After all as you can see the team is not huge and not all Gm's have the time where they can sit in front of the computer hosting a roleplay event. These events are time eaters, especailly when they become big and take alot of work to plan. Try putting one together and I guarantee you will understand.

[Verrliit]

Karyuu, exactly what is wrong with engineering PS so that players can take care of themselves, and GMs are needed rarely, or not at all?


Xordan, you are right. 

Even after playing PS for X number of hours, a player might become very familiar with the PS world and community, and still be an idiot.

Yes, such a one might make it into one of my proposed positions, as easily as they have done in the current structure.

But Xordan, it does not matter if that happens, and there is no need to prevent it. 

Unlike the current GM setup, that idiot would quickly be removed by the other players, before causing much damage.

You know what self-correcting means, I am sure..

Suggestion: Weed out the GMs who haven't logged in for x amount of time or who cannot produce evidence of any sort of care for the PS community. Rework the GM rules/permissions. Change something. Obviously something is wrong.

I love this community to death and im tired of seeing quality members leaving, quitting, fading away, or whatever because of a few annoying, rude, and useless people.

Easton Ghent

Really big hugs, Easton.  I know just how you feel.

But speaking of changes for the better...


ZORBELS, YOU MADE GM!!?? 

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy!!!!!

Congratulations, sweetie! 

I know you have wanted this for a long time, and I know you will make a difference.

Reallly, really, really big hugs.

Anything you need, just ask.


~Verrliit~

[Karyuu]

Karyuu, exactly what is wrong with engineering PS so that players can take care of themselves, and GMs are needed rarely, or not at all?

I do not share your grand utopian delusions of a self-watching community. No player is ever going to find him or herself equipped with /mute or /kick unless they are hand-selected. No amount of in-game hours alone are automatically going to make someone qualify. That's not even up for debate.

As for events, players often have ideas that conflict with PS settings. We have already seen that. To give everyone (with large in-game hours) even small GM powers and set them loose in the world to alter it will mean that everyone will be able to say "It's true because it already happened in-game." No way.

The GM system isn't perfect, but we are going to try to improve it. We're not sitting here admitting that things can be better without doing something about it. However, I know for a definite fact that the dev team will not agree with your truly wild idea of a self-moderating player system, a sure recipe for conflicts of all sorts.

[Mirashi]

This got way off topic...

[Kiern]

Karyuu, exactly what is wrong with engineering PS so that players can take care of themselves, and GMs are needed rarely, or not at all?

I do not share your grand utopian delusions of a self-watching community. No player is ever going to find him or herself equipped with /mute or /kick unless they are hand-selected. No amount of in-game hours alone are automatically going to make someone qualify. That's not even up for debate.

Oh man, that would so make me download Planeshift just to see the fallout (under a different name of course or I'm sure Planeshift would explode)...Verrliit, I have to say, thanks for making me scroll down an incredibly large amount to read your one or two paragraphs worth of writing.  Your post makes me curious though, are you perhaps a libertarian? 

Anyways, can anyone think of a reason not to have the seperate RM/EM whatever (besides "too much work")?  I find it hard to come up with reasons why if I don't have reasons why not...it just makes too much sense to me to have it.

This got way off topic...

Great, I'm glad you made an entire post that wasn't completely worthless to the conversation.  It's not off-topic, by the way, as we're still discussing the issues covered in the original post.  We just slowly swerved away from specifics to a broader view.

[Valbrandr]

Easton: I couldnt agree with you more.. thats really how I feel.

As for a player run community ingame.. what a great thing that would be if everyone could be trusted. But I do think that there are plenty of trustworthy people within PS. And something needs to be down to reinvigorate the community.

And as for the doing away with RMs.. I thought that was such a bad idea. Many people were very excited that they could throw these events only to have their hopes crushed. I think its still needed.. I understand that the GM team needs to be fixed first. Thats why they should be seperate. Most GMs wont have the time to set these events up because of what they already have to do. People specialized for throwing events would be a set up. Then again, I have no idea what would have to be down.. they would have seperate powers than GMs and im not sure which powers both should have.

[ThomPhoenix]

@ Zorbels:
I know people could make events themselves, but you're always limited by the game.
If a GM is either making an event or helping with one, you can create so much more atmosphere.
Just think about the Prince of the Rogues event in Ojaveda.
- A purple haze
- An invisible voice warning you upon entry of Ojaveda, and teleporting you back outside of the city
- Lots of rogues in Ojaveda
- Lots of dangerous npc's on the road to Ojaveda.

That's something you don't roleplay
I agree most of the events should be held by players, but I and others am disappointed because GM events can just be so much fun, but there hasn't been one in ages.

[Verrliit]

Karyuu, exactly what is wrong with engineering PS so that players can take care of themselves, and GMs are needed rarely, or not at all?

I do not share your grand utopian delusions of a self-watching community. No player is ever going to find him or herself equipped with /mute or /kick unless they are hand-selected.

Who said I wanted /mute or /kick?

To be able to teleport would be quite sufficient.

No amount of in-game hours alone are automatically going to make someone qualify. That's not even up for debate.

I see.  So even if say, ten or twenty other players approve of them, experienced and seasoned players have to be favorites of yours to be allowed to do these things.

And we only get to debate things you like.

You only wanted to duck the accusations, not eliminate favoritism and abuse of power.  My mistake.

As for events, players often have ideas that conflict with PS settings. We have already seen that. To give everyone (with large in-game hours) even small GM powers and set them loose in the world to alter it will mean that everyone will be able to say "It's true because it already happened in-game." No way.

We have clearly seen that the GMs are not immune to this, either.

And why do you need so badly, to be in such tight control of what the player community does, in a "Pre-Alpha Demo"?

The GM system isn't perfect, but we are going to try to improve it. We're not sitting here admitting that things can be better without doing something about it. However, I know for a definite fact that the dev team will not agree with your truly wild idea of a self-moderating player system, a sure recipe for conflicts of all sorts.

Yep.

And the players are more than capbable of dealing with conflicts of all sorts, if they are given the means to do so.

It is a statistical certainty, that out of tens of thousands of players, there is more talent, maturity, wisdom, ingenuity, imagination and art, than the Dev and GM teams could ever hope to match.

Why do you see that as a threat, and not a resource?


~Verrliit~