what about the Hell?

[Robinmagus]

I guess hell is ooc, but I'm seeing a slow progression in the community. Slowly going towards being rp nazis 

[Sangwa]

This thread shouldn't be here.

Anyway, why is France called France? I have no idea. The Dark Empire has been called Dark Empire because the first person of the first imperial line decreed its name would be so. Maybe she was fond of the Dark way. Maybe Dark stands for a non-english word that by coincidence is the same as the english one. Maybe its Dark because it came in a shady era. Or maybe as a symbol of what's there before the dawn. Who knows.

And where are the roleplay Nazis? These conflicting words are bound to appear, not because we have roleplay nazis, but because our roleplay setting is not complete.

I wouldn't consider hell just a religious thing. It might have begun as a relligious concept, but currently we attribute many meanings to it. Violence not accuretly being one of them. Rather a place/state of deep misery. I'd ban the usuage of the word Hell in its religious sense though. So no Giants of Hell, no Hell Spawns, no Hell Reapers, nothing coming from the religious, fictonal (as far as my own beliefs are concerned) plane of hell.

[Einnol]

I only have one little thing to respond to:

• Plakkem Hverrjanor

Again please correct me if I am wrong, but is that not a foreign language?

Only if Stonebreaker (Pel Perrakithor) is considered a foreign language.

As some are already aware, I have been an avid student of Arka's Stonebreaker language for about 11 months now and even chose a Pel Perrakithor name for the guild that was handed down to me.

'Plakkem' - A conceptual place or space (as opposed to a concrete physical place)
'Hverrjan' (everyone), +'or' (genitive case of a noun that means 'of' and implies 'ownership' or 'belonging to')

Pel Perrakithor nouns

In my opinion, this name is more 'in settings' than the German language name that the guild had before it was given to me.

The difference with "made-up" languages is that they are specific to this game and to the setting, not influenced by OOC nationalities.

In developing Stonebreaker I have always made it clear that this is not a dialect of Dwarfish, but a wholly new language, devised many generations ago to enable the Stonebreakers to trade with other races without disclosing the Dwarfish language (which is secret anyway).

[Idoru]

Well, I do realise that in the distant past the strictess of IC names wasnt as bad as it is currently, But I think the explanation 'because it always has been' is a bad one Nikodemus. I have no issues if no-one has any idea why it is named such, I presume that the original leader just liked the name. Same as Elemental Light.

@Einnol ahhh, I had no idea thats where the name came from, but seeing as we are on the subject of OOC-ness: isnt it OOC to use runes as a character system? im no expert on runic lettering and would never claim to be but i certainly recognise a few of them.

[Datruth]

So if I made a guild that totally went against the settings... meh, Doesn't matter. Just don't join it? Why don't we let everyone interpret the settings in their own way. Good idea? No.

If it goes against the settings, and that is clearly defined, such as, "The Microsoft Group", Then i agree that guild should not exist.

But when things get more gray such as with the word, "Hell", there is no clear distinction that this breaks the Settings.
The first thing i think of, when i hear hell, in P.S, is the Death realm.
We are in the gray area
There is no definite answer currently,
THEREFORE, I feel it's o.k to allow that word, people will in general understand the name of the guild, no one's R.P will be compromised.

I hope that was all clear my friend Parallo 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But what he is saying is that the lines should be redrawn to include things that are slightly OOC because people that have read the settings know they're wrong?

I love how you think, that's what i'm saying, it's marvelous, let me clarify my point for you.

YOU feel, Hell is OOC, Out of Character.
Would you bet your life on it?

Probably not, because i'm betting there is a good chance, Talad might say that the word Hell exists in Ylaikum.
In that case, you would die, having bet your life.

Now, do the settings, EXPLICITLY say Hell is wrong? No
So do we know it's, OOC?  NO, Apparantly you do though.

SO i feel, if situations like this occur, AND we are in gray area, AND it ruins no one's r.p, IT IS o.k.

In this case, i feel it's o.k, no ones r.p is ruined, and the word hell is in the Grey area, just as the word Empire might be in the gray area.
I never read the word empire in the settings? But i'm nearly 100% sure it's o.k, just as i am with the word Hell.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But what he is saying is that the lines should be redrawn to include things that are slightly OOC because people that have read the settings know they're wrong?

I dont think that the setting specifically preclude any form of a hell.  They could just as easily say that the word 'Hell' in the dwarven native tounge means Death Realm.

To sum up. Hells Dwarves doesnt bother me although I would not have named my guild that way. I would also not join it. However '1337 Haxxors' would bother me. (Mainly because I cant stand leetspeak)

Exactly my friend Idoru, and thank you for all your remarks. 

It is rationally possible to believe that the word HELL could be used in Ylaikum, and there is no definitive PROOF that it is forbidden.
It's grey area.

And it doesnt' bother anyone's R.P.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So if it was Knights of the Sun rather than Knights of the Crystal but sun was just another word for crystal that'd be fine? You really think so?

isnt it called 'Azure sun' by the races that remember the above ground anyway?

Someone needs to re read the settings, Thank you for pointing that out Narure.

I think then, that Parallo, would not be a good candidate, for deciding what is OOC or IC, when it comes to the word Hell.
So he should stop referring to the word, "hell" as being OOC because from where i stand, that hasn't been decided yet.

I'd gladly invite Talad to this conversation, his wisdom would clear all this up for us.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

An opinion of your superior is also called an order sometimes

Were you implying that Neko and Karyuu, are our superiours because they are moderators?

A moderator helps keep a forum in good shape... not necessarily make orders.
If you were to ask them whether they were your superiors, they would surely say no.

If there are any superiors out there, it would be Talad and a good portion to Venge as well.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't think anyone is going extreme about the hell word. its ooc and there is no doubt about it. The decision to change the name is up to GMs anyway, so going extreme for me wouldn't be healthy ;P
What i do instead is treat this guild members without respect in the best case. Since they don't want to RP, i don't know what they are looking in PS in-game.

I wish there was no doubt about it, the thing is, there are doubts, clear ones.

And i enjoy your point Nikodemus, don't let a few names that are in the grey area bother you, just don't speak to them if you don't want to.
And if they bother you, tell a gm and they will help you right away.

All and all great post nikodemus.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LARAGORN's Post

insert here

This is exactly the evidence i can show to everyone.

Laragorn once again has moved the thread by showing us that, THIS IS GREY.
We can't be sure it's ooc, anyone saying it is doesn't know 100%.

There is too much ambiguity and if we start dissecting names of guilds, we'll eventually dissect nearly all of them.
We cannot be extreme in our decisions, we do not need RP extremists, you've seen what they have done to this game and how they cause strife.

This name is put into question, and you can't say it's IC or OOC fully, with full conviction.

LARAGORN has CLEARLY proven this with his remarkable post, thank you for that my friend.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

With this i want to lay down some common ground.

We are in a grey area, those who hold to certainty, need to let go of some of it, and read Laragorn's post.

Do we really start dissecting names, even those that are in the grey?
Shouldn't we just stick with those that we know violate the settings?

DO WE KNOW all the settings? The answer atleast to that one, is no, we don't, Only Talad does truely.

What shouldn't we do? Let me put, that this is my opinion, so Zan doesn't attack me.

We shouldn't start changing guild names, when we are soo uncertain about soo many things.

What should we do? More research, allow a little more flexability, and make sure that no one's R.P is comprimised.
Allowing the Hell's Dwarvs to live, will not comprimise ANYone's R.P, and as Nikodemous pointed out, you could just as easily ignore them.

BUT re naming the guild, comprimises, ALL their members roleplaying, it will have a huge effect on them, and some of them will get angry.
If we are really that unsure....Should we be making these decisions?
So rashly?
Especially when Laragorn clearly showed, that with the loss of the word HELL would be a loss for alot of guilds?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I say, in this case, we need to learn not to be extreme.
As long as we can all HAVE FUN and Roleplay properly, WITHIN the Settings that are DEFINED, not grey, then we will live happy.

LEAVE the grey stuff to Talad, he'll guide the way, as our captain.
And don't start Picking apart guild's name, just think of how much time it took to name thier guild and the honor they get from it.

If the name violates the settings, KILL it, like, "The microsoft Group".
If it doesn't and it's grey, and we are uncertain, let it be, and let Talad decide.

My theme:

Learn to work together, not tear each other apart.
One is the result of Mercy, the other is the result of Hate.

~~Datruth

[Removal of nearly flamatory remarks that could possibly cause thread to degrade into childless name calling.  --Neko]

[Nurahk]

Datruth, it is nice to see that your pride is rivaled only by your victim complex.

In other news.

A quick reply because 1, I'm lazy and 2, .... I'm sure there is a second reason somewhere.

Yes, the Moderators should be looked upon as our superiors, just like police men, they've got a job to do, let them do it.

Hell itself OOC, but if they are refering to the Death Realm when they say it and not actual hell.  Then I see no problem with it.

and

I never read the word empire in the settings? But i'm nearly 100% sure it's o.k, just as i am with the word Hell.

That's the worst comparison I've read in a while.
I never saw the words "bright pink" in the setting either.  Big whoop.
Hell is a proper noun, atleast, the Hell that is being argued is.

[Post edited to remove quoted text and comments to quoted text that was removed from a previous post as it doesn't apply to the thread any longer and to prevent the thread degrading into a mindless name calling state.  --Neko]

[Datruth]

Datruth, it is nice to see that your pride is rivaled only by your victim complex.

Hi there , it appears i'm the only one allowed to be attacked.

I should rename myself, "The P.S Forums Punching back of truth" lol

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's the worst comparison I've read in a while.
I never saw the words "bright pink" in the setting either.  Big whoop.

I've never seen the color Pink in Ylaikum actually, so for all we know, Pink might not exist. This is yliakum, not earth.
Try a better analogy.

And just because i grouped together the words Hell and Empire,
You would feel that possibly the word Platoon might exist in ylaikum, or commander?
Weren't those words created way after our settings?
Can we be sure the word Empire existed, Before the word Hell?
It's grey area, go read laragorns post.

~~Datruth

[Post edited to remove remarks that could lead thread into a mindless name calling state. --Neko]

[Nurahk]

Datruth, it is nice to see that your pride is rivaled only by your victim complex.

Hi there , it appears i'm the only one allowed to be attacked.

I should rename myself, "The P.S Forums Punching back of truth" lol

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've attacked many people, Datruth, don't flatter yourself.

Ask Zanzibar

That's the worst comparison I've read in a while.
I never saw the words "bright pink" in the setting either.  Big whoop.

I've never seen the color Pink in Ylaikum actually, so for all we know, Pink might not exist. This is yliakum, not earth.
Try a better analogy.

And just because i grouped together the words Hell and Empire,
You would feel that possibly the word Platoon might exist in ylaikum, or commander?
Weren't those words created way after our settings?
Can we be sure the word Empire existed, Before the word Hell?
It's grey area, go read laragorns post.
~~Datruth

Alright, let's look at it this way.

A proper noun describes something definite.
Empire, platoon and commander, do not.

Platoon is commonly associated with modern day military and not so much with the warfare that went on during our equivalent to Planeshift's setting.  So it may be disliked by many.

Commander and empire are both concepts when you get down to it.

Hmm, my english is taking a beating.  I'm not used to explaining stuff to somebody too proud to understand.

[Post edited to remove quoted text and comments to quoted text that was removed from a previous post as it doesn't apply to the thread any longer and to prevent the thread degrading into a mindless name calling state.  --Neko]

[Parallo]

The word Hell could not possibly exist as the Death Realm as the Death Realm is where all dead people go (Duh) where as hell is, as Nurahk put it, a concept that we know doesn't exist in Yliakum. Hell is the opposite to heaven. A place appearenty filled with fire and brimstone and all that. Its the same as saying "I've traveled far over Earth." when you mean "I've traveled far over Yliakum and the stone labyrinths."

Datruth, I truely do wish we didn't have such different time zones so that I could see what warrented the change to your posts. I've said it before: PM me if you wish to disscuss our differences. The forums are not the place for that.

[Datruth]

As for Hell and the DR, it's not that the DR is like hell.

No one is saying that.

But when you say hell in Yliakum, you think Dr.

It's just something that comes after hell, no one is saying, Hey, these dwarves go and torture and hold you for eternity.

More like these Dwarves come from the Death realm, or have an affiliation with the Death realm.

No one here is saying the DR is like Hell, it's that Hell can be easily replaced, by the word DR in yliakum.

And anyone who would like the full transcript of my post, may have it, all you need to do is ask, you can then judge for yourself if any flaming took place.

~~Datruth

[Post edited to remove remarks about Moderator actions.  The open forum is not the appropriate place for that.  If you have a problem with one of our moderator's actions, send a PM or email to a forum admin and they will review the issue and decide on an appropriate action.  --Neko]

[Peacer]

hells dwarves could easily change their history as elvi said make a dwarf named hellios, or just include a dwarf named hell in the guildhistory and say that he was a religious leader to some and all who wants to follow his principles could join the guild.


I see hell used awfully lot IC too, also by some who are against the name in here, I don't want to mention any name though.

As for RP extremists going against that guild name, I am one myself and I see no problem in it as I just think of a bunch of dwarves comming from some place with lot's of torment and such, yes it's ooc but there really isn't anything in the settings right now which could be used, and since people (and npc's) use hell why not use it in a guildname anyway? (Yes I know that my opinion comes from relegion blah blah blah, but these dwarves could believe that hell was a place of torment and pain , just like another guild who thought there was some god, only thought didn't claim it ooc'ly)

[Karyuu]

But when you say hell in Yliakum, you think Dr.

And when you say "Earth," you think of "Yliakum." That doesn't mean that it's the proper term, still. If you can easily replace it with "DR," why not do just that instead of having a gray issue at all?

[Post edited to remove quoted text and comments to quoted text that was removed from a previous post as it doesn't apply to the thread any longer.  --Neko]

[LARAGORN]

But when you say hell in Yliakum, you think Dr.

And when you say "Earth," you think of "Yliakum." That doesn't mean that it's the proper term, still. If you can easily replace it with "DR," why not do just that instead of having a gray issue at all?

A very easy statment to make and in a way right on the money, but.....

Will it be just as easy for all the other guilds with gray areas in regards to their names?

senario... A group of folks whom where once surface dwellers brought with them on their journey to Yliakum A belief almost lost. ...Insert amazing intro here......they believed that some folks would go to a place called hell if they were evil......... Inset explanation of story being all but lost............ Insert finding of lost scrolls describing this place called hell.............. new believers in this place called hell and believe it to be the Death Realm.  yadda yadda yadda

[Karyuu]

That scenario doesn't sound so bad, but where would you personally draw the line? If that same group of surface dwellers brought with them a story about heaven and hell, would that be too much? What if they started a belief on a heaven, hell, and a born-of-god-and-mortal savior? If you let in one thing, what kind of slippery slope are you setting up, you know..? Then you get more people complaining "They didn't have to change, why do we?"

I'm not posting here to give you guys any rules, but just to share my opinion. I don't demand that people stop using "hell," but I don't like it either, and if I repeatedly see it used in place of "Death Realm," I'll throw in a small comment and move on - because I don't feel that it's one of the better ideas out there.

[neko kyouran]

A quick response, as I have to go to work soon.....

My only beef with using hell is that I seem to remember a discussion that came up over the removal of another word from the game as someone, sometime, somewhere, but not yet, could take offense to it.

Guess what, someone, sometime, somewhere, but not yet, could take offense to seeing hell in a guild name.  I'm just trying to suggest we follow precedent here, as that other word was changed for something nicer, so following that, this one should be changed as well.

Personally, it doesn't bother me one little bit, if there was an IC reason for it, which none has been given yet.  In fact, I havent even seen a post from one of the members in the guild here yet, which makes me believe, that there is no real reason for the name other than "it sounded cool, like the biker gang hell's angels".  Until I see a post from a member of that guild, that's what I'll have to believe.