Author Topic: Dark empire discussion  (Read 16149 times)

Nurahk

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Re: Dark empire discussion
« Reply #165 on: June 10, 2007, 08:25:12 am »
I didn't take over it's position.  And, at the time your character was destroying the Empire's reputation.

And that's me, not the Dark Empire.

zanzibar

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Re: Dark empire discussion
« Reply #166 on: June 10, 2007, 08:30:11 am »
I didn't take over it's position.  And, at the time your character was destroying the Empire's reputation.
Even if that were true, you're merely saying "The ends justify the means", which gives weight to Draklar's accusations.

And that's me, not the Dark Empire.
That's like saying that the Dark Empire has nothing to do with Sangwa's leadership and style.
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Nurahk

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Re: Dark empire discussion
« Reply #167 on: June 10, 2007, 08:36:30 am »
It is true, Zanzibar.
And one man slighted is not enough to cause a bunch of people who don't know him to rise up against the Empire.

I couldn't care less if you think the Empire is evil, everybody has a different opinion of what evil is.  It's just not evil enough to cause such uprisings.
Draklar seems intent on changing the topic, I imagine it's because he knows he's wrong.  As for you, Zanzi, you don't really have a character who hates the Empire as far as I've seen, so this doesn't have much to do with you.

Not to sound offensive, of course, this is all around whether or not their reasons for hating the Empire are OOC.

On the note of the "evil Empire", Imperials have stood up for Yliakum more times than most people who claim to be good.  Even while these uprisings were going on the Empire was looking into stopping a new threat from harms Yliakum.  A threat that I'm quite convinced the Empire could benefit from, if they so chose.

zanzibar

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Re: Dark empire discussion
« Reply #168 on: June 10, 2007, 08:40:59 am »
As for you, Zanzi, you don't really have a character who hates the Empire as far as I've seen, so this doesn't have much to do with you.

In fact, I've done quite a bit to help the guild.  That makes it even more bizarre that you lied to so many people to get me kicked out of it.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2007, 08:43:03 am by zanzibar »
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

Nurahk

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Re: Dark empire discussion
« Reply #169 on: June 10, 2007, 08:47:38 am »
Right...Zanzibar.

I understand you see an argument and go "Oh looky looky, I should be there."

But, you've contributed nothing to the topic at hand, and to the thread topic only slightly.

I don't care how much you did to help the guild, Zanzi, I personally don't think it was anything notable, you were killing it's reputation and weren't stopping.  You had to go.

Lied to so many?  I find it intriguing that your respect for 2 or three people is so high that you count them as many.

Draklar

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Re: Dark empire discussion
« Reply #170 on: June 10, 2007, 08:49:05 am »
I can't be bothered to argue with you, but it seems now it's not only my Magnir character you criticize. It's not like I consider you an authority on role-playing, but it still annoys me. So to make a short answer:
To be blunt, Draklar.  You came back to PS (OOCly) and joined the Empire (ICly), on the forums there you had a long dispute over the word brethren (OOCly), from there, me and you had a bit of a fight over personal matters (OOCly), Draklar then left the Empire, seemingly for no reason and started disliking it.
Draklar's last words on DE boards:
"I do not need your wars or your pride. Most people of Yliakum do not need them... Think about whom you fight for."
After saying this I've been waiting for an answer. Either agreement that violence is not the answer, or scolding of Draklar. Since it was the latter, Draklar left. Simple as that.
I made it clear to Sangwa that I wouldn't leave because of you, not any time soon anyway. The reason why Draklar left was because he didn't like the way DE was managed.
And he's not opposing it in any way. Just mistrusts.
Magnir is the one who opposes Dark Empire, but it's not only DE he opposes. If you want to know why, ask Vexonee about his life story.
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Raleigh

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Re: Dark empire discussion
« Reply #171 on: June 10, 2007, 08:51:12 am »
     "The ends justifies the means" is not something used exclusively by those dubbed as "Lawful Evil". In fact, "Chaotic Good" tends to use all means necessary to achieve their "good goals".
     And finally a quote that relates to one of the few books about politics that resemble the way things work in reality instead of delving into idealistic utopian views. Now, I think what really matters if one wishes to attempt putting an organization in such shallow "alignment system" are the ends, not the means. In fact the means are usually related with the lawful-chaotic axis. With "the ends justifies the means" as being a characteristic of the "chaotic" alignment.
     Now I think that this discussion is slowly drifting towards the ad hominens and criticisms towards each other instead of conclusive answer to dismiss arguments. Things might get heated later on a possible "duel".
     
     Putting it bluntly, as I already said, the Dark Empire isn't Lawful Evil, it is authoritarian and imperialist. Whether such structure will bring just rewards and acknowledgements for those who swear and keep their loyalty and obedience with competence instead of serving to the interests of an elite of wealthy politicians once it becomes a federal government is another history. However the concept of "benevolent dictator" is skewy, and it is a very loaded expression, just like "freedom fighters", only time will tell what the Empire will become, but while we wait, lets not forget that republics and "democracies" are also prone to corruption and might become "evil" governments. I cannot seek more partial conclusions as I am not sure whether the Dark Empire follows a "social body" idea where each individual is a single cell of a greater collective, or if it is somewhere inbetween absolute collectivism and indivualism.

     However, any hierarchical system is prone to heavy competition for the higher ranks, and sometimes, ruthlessness will be used by some people to reach them, so incidents related with internal bids for power are to be expected in any organization with strong hierarchies. If this ruthlessness is not detained by internal regulations, it might lead to the eventual slippery slope towards corruption as the most ruthless slowly assume higher ranks as the years pass.

Nurahk

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Re: Dark empire discussion
« Reply #172 on: June 10, 2007, 08:59:00 am »
"I do not need your wars or your pride. Most people of Yliakum do not need them... Think about whom you fight for."

Alright.  I'm giving you about a month to find one war that the Empire started.

How long after our falling out did those words come?  And I don't care about Magnir's life story, you created him shortly after our disputes.
You've yet to come up with a decent reason, Draklar.  I'll assume it's because you can't.

This discussion has been interesting but, as Raleigh pointed out it is becoming less and less an argument and more a fight.

I stand by my opinion that this is terrible RP.  I also still believe this is all done because of you dislike of me, considering the time between our "fight" and the time Draklar left and Magnir came to be.
You've yet to raise any points against either besides, first, saying that Draklar is against Imperial wars (Which...you know...just don't happen) and Imperial pride...Obviously a very lame RP excuse.

As for Magnir, if I hate somebody OOC, and create a character just to piss of there's IC.  No matter what story I come up with, it's still terrible RP.

All the same, I'll continue to play along a little more ingame.  But, it's getting tiring and there are many more interesting events unfolding that I'd like to participate in.

zanzibar

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Re: Dark empire discussion
« Reply #173 on: June 10, 2007, 09:07:39 am »
Right...Zanzibar.

I understand you see an argument and go "Oh looky looky, I should be there."

But, you've contributed nothing to the topic at hand, and to the thread topic only slightly.

I don't care how much you did to help the guild, Zanzi, I personally don't think it was anything notable, you were killing it's reputation and weren't stopping.  You had to go.

Lied to so many?  I find it intriguing that your respect for 2 or three people is so high that you count them as many.

More misdirection and deceit.  You already got what you wanted, why carry on with the act?
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

Nurahk

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Re: Dark empire discussion
« Reply #174 on: June 10, 2007, 09:09:56 am »
Zanzi.  I enjoy politeness and despise rudeness but, this is how old?

In short, shoo...go find some other argument.

Draklar

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Re: Dark empire discussion
« Reply #175 on: June 10, 2007, 09:16:41 am »
Haha, okay, I'll bite. I do find it amusing how people can build alternative reality to fill up the gaps :D

Alright.  I'm giving you about a month to find one war that the Empire started.
Context, please. Draklar was talking about Hwnae's will to fight Duraza (though in more organised way).

How long after our falling out did those words come?
Honestly, I don't know. But as far as I remember they were carried out shortly after my argument with Hwnae over tactical/strategic matter. Nothing against Hwnae, simple disagreement. But none the less it seemed to me like too much emphasis on open fighting. Not something Draklar would be fine with (though he was, as a lad).

And I don't care about Magnir's life story, you created him shortly after our disputes.
Hmm... I created him after getting annoyed with Enkidukai side of the community (I didn't hide it on the boards). Since then I returned emphasis to Draklar, among other reasons because of how you criticized Magnir and alike characters. No fun in role-playing dispute with people, if those people won't feel okay about this dispute, right? Anyway, Magnir is shaped after my all time favorite character I developed in WFRP, with quite a few changes to fit the PS setting. I actually told Cyl long time ago I might have such intention. It's not a secret the said character was anti-authoritarian and ever so shady. Cyl also knows some details about him (and knew as far as a year back).

Enough of a reason?
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Nurahk

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Re: Dark empire discussion
« Reply #176 on: June 10, 2007, 09:19:02 am »
Err...I don't see your reason.

And this would be the Duraza that attacked our HQ twice, right?

...

If your posts and reasons are going to continue to be so weak, I'm going to go watch tv.

Draklar

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Re: Dark empire discussion
« Reply #177 on: June 10, 2007, 09:28:46 am »
*shrug* Draklar wanted case-fire. I don't care whether he was right in asking for it. I'm not Draklar... err.. not the one ingame :p

Have fun with tv o/
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Hwnae

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Re: Dark empire discussion
« Reply #178 on: June 10, 2007, 10:29:24 am »
Yes, context please ...

Hwnae's will to fight back against the same Duraza that was enslaving Imperial Scholars and then attacking our headquarters in order to claim him back. If Draklar considers that evil .. well then Draklar is probably a wee bit messed up in the head or the next Ghandi.

Hwnae is a defender of the Empire .. not an attacker of those who want to be left alone. He is a honourable but ruthless warrior, he won't shy away to answer force with even more force but he will never agree with attacking the defenseless or even just those who aren't looking for any trouble. Not even if his superiors would command it .. which I know they won't :P He has little tolerance for public disobedience as well and his men are treated harshly sometimes but he can also be very rewarding towards those who perform well and in the end he considers his men as an extended family. His sometimes rude words are something he deems necessary to keep the discipline that will make his warriors superior to most others in Yliakum. Towards outsiders who don't show him clear disrespect and hostile attitudes he will never be rude.

You've been pulling Hwnae's motives and quotes out of context quite a bit in these last few discussions.

Draklar

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Re: Dark empire discussion
« Reply #179 on: June 10, 2007, 02:12:51 pm »
Erm. Draklar doesn't consider Dark Empire evil. He just mistrusts it, that's all. Come to think of it, exactly like Havena used to mistrust the Legendary Warriors.
And evil-calling is a nice myth now. I only refered to Dark Empire as evil on boards, as a player. But somehow it is assumed ICly that Magnir does the same... Despise his friendly relations with some DE members and his avoiding the word "evil", also because it's usually him who is labeled as such.

I don't understand what you mean with the context though. Should it be objective, or subjective considering we're talking about Draklar leaving? In context Draklar knew nothing about any imprisoned Imperialists (and the HQ attacking I never took seriously, as from what I understand, escape from the setting (overpowering) was the case there), nor was he told anything about it. He was just told to keep silent :P

Finally Draklar has (or rather had) different views on the matter than Hwnae did. He did scold people when he needed to, but he never yelled or threatened them. I think neither Hwnae nor Draklar had the supreme knowledge over what should be done, so again, this is not much of a relevant context.

I used the quotes to explain why someone could see DE as evil. I don't know about Sangwa's mind, nor that of Hwnae. I'm just saying how they may be perceived by people (who don't have mind-reading abilities).

But in the end, Aelya also used her whip for discipline. She was never rude to people who didn't deserve it. She could explain herself with these arguments. Yet by her standards she was lawful-evil. Lawful-evil is a very mild sort of wrongdoing. It's the sort of evil that can prosper without people even realising there's anything wrong with it. I encourage anyone to point out any "evil" action performed by the Dark Empire during the Aelya-Aendar-Draklar-Kwartz era. Not much of that and yet DE was widely considered great example of lawful-evil guild. Evil isn't just about mindless murdering.

Hwnae may or may not be evil. But his actions can be perceived as such.

Overall I find the attitude somewhat strange. Why does it trouble you people so much that others perceive you as evil? During medieval times false accusations on this matter were fairly common. And seriously, at least you have something to role-play about. Trying to fight this opinion I mean (but most certainly not through arguing over it on the forums). Neither by trying to talk with those who call you evil. That appears to me awfully silly (maybe offer them some tea and cookies as you continue conversation?). Also keep in mind some of those people are simply criminals trying to avenge their brethren. General public is what you should aim for. If you can work for your good there without raising suspicion, then it should work and people who think ill of DE should disappear with time.
Leading an empire shouldn't be easy. As you grow in power, you'll face problems such as ones you face right now. Did you really expect it'll be solely about earning money, fighting criminals and recruiting members? Do you really want everything to always go as you'd wish it to go? Wouldn't that be a little bit boring?

Though do keep in mind the environment. As an evil guild, Dark Empire was enriching the world. It was something people could fight. What does DE bring into the game nowadays? What's so interesting about it? At least when perceived as evil (mostly by the shady people, irony, and that's what is cool about it) it enriches Planeshift with some action. Imperialists have to defend themselves from growing opposition from the side of the poor. Personally I think it's a shame you discard the idea so easily. Asides that and some fun stuff in Ojaveda, Yliakum is a boring semi-utopia (not according to setting presented ingame though, which is sometimes quite apocalyptic <3 )
« Last Edit: June 10, 2007, 02:35:29 pm by Draklar »
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