If Planeshift intends to be original...

[zanzibar]

I've said this before, but I think duels should be removed from the game.  This annoying subculture would disappear overnight as a result.  My character in-game is a sociopathic serial killer who has murdered many high profile characters, so I'm not saying this without any fondness for the PvP system.  I just think the benefits outweigh the costs.

[Feline Prince]

Non-leathal dualing and a justice system. I know I'm getting repetative saying it over and over again but I'm yet to hear a good reason why it shouldnt be. Other than the difficulty coding, but games are hard to code.

[Raleigh]

I confess I would enjoy really very much PK, not to the point of only doing it however... if this was a MMOFPS...

How much time will it take to people realized that combat and quick-paced action aren't the strong points of a roleplaying game so they won't waste more time on RPGs and MMORPGs focused on "Hack and Slash"? That playing on its strong points is usually better than on its weak points? And that if you like something that is a weak point on the game you're playing, perhaps you should look for another genre of game where it's a strong point?

Well, I won't be the "go play other game!" type, but here are some games you might find much more interesting than Planeshift, none of them is perfect as they are delving in a new genre(MMOFPS) - sometimes their learning curves are steep, but if you like a good challenge it's good -, however definitively more developed than PS, and their combat is more interesting as well(As PS focus isn't combat), perhaps you could give a try on online games that try to conciliate both FPS and RPG strenghts(like Deus Ex) or on pure MMOFPSes:

Planetside(One of the first MMOFPSes...)

Official Site: http://planetside.station.sony.com/

Review: http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/planetside/review.html

Neocron 2.2(I also am looking forward for this one myself, as it is some kind of "Deus Ex MMORPG", and you can be a hacker too ):

Official Site: http://ng.neocron.com/

Review: http://www.gameogre.com/neocron2review.htm

Now lets hope they will release Huxley(it has RP elements) for PC too and not only for Xbox, so there will be a third option as well:

http://pc.ign.com/articles/617/617966p1.html

Are they free? No, I don't want to sound pessimistic, but sometimes the proverbial "you get what you pay for" becomes true and there is no way a free MMOFPS could ever be developed. There are some free GPL quake clones laying around, but nowadays the old Quake 3 and such can be found cheaply on eBay, so I don't think it's worth.

Now back to the MMORPG genre... No offense to those who do it, but I would never pay monthly for one because "paying to work" is absurd(except if the "payment" is a donation and the work is voluntary to aid the needy of course). And for me the gameplay from all MMORPGs on the grinding is something as boring as a job. I stick with PS because it has more than just grind.

Now back on topic:

And if players suddenly start to RP UFOs, we'll allow that in as official settings material too, eh?

There is more than that... although the idea of bypassing the way things work on roleplay because it isn't reflected on gameplay is a bit off, this comparison went too far... It's more a question of whether Settings should be treated as "alpha"(something based on the line "Testers First, Players Second" which I disagree fully), considering the game system situation as more important than roleplay or if it should be treated as complete, including "godmodding"(according to some people) the practice of skills your character has but that don't work in game yet, considering roleplay more important than the alpha game system. I say: are you on a back alley at the "midnight"? A (very stupid) victim goes there... I can't say much, but it's a big chance of something bad happening for example. Now, killing somebody in the front of a NPC guard? It's another history then...

[Draklar]

Here is the short list:

• Racial Determinism: "No racism" and "No 'evil'/'good' race" already is a step forward, but most of the Planeshift races still have stereotypes, fortunately not so strong as the ones in most fantasy books. Why not make a diaboli that is honest and trustworthy for example? Of course this also relies on players not following these stereotypes
• The Chosen One Syndrome & The Epic: Fortunately it's out of PS, there's no way someone can become a savior and neither there is a mention of those in Planeshift Settings, also there is no "Evil Big Lord".
• Authority Worship: For the people who insist on claiming "government is good", etc. This is one of the largest clichés of the genre, and really, it sucks. The brief mentions of the existence of crooks here and there on the Settings - Government Page information put it away from that a little. It doesn't have to follow "1984", neither it has to follow "Utopia"
• Boredom With Eurocentrism: Why people insist on dismissing any  slight reference to things from other cultures as OOC? Making things slightly inspire from multiple cultures isn't a bad idea. Planeshift seems to be going more or less on the right track here, as except for the Ylians, the other races seem to draw a bit from other RW cultural basis: Xachas from the mesoamericans(aztecs,etc), Enkidukais from some kind of Middle-Eastern nomad culture and so on

Originality isn't good when it comes to the verge of absurd. Diaboli are highly charismatic. Why shouldn't they take advantage of it when they know they may get away with it?

In my opinion there isn't enough racial stereotypes provided by the setting. The less they are pointed out, the more all races will act the same. Lack of cultural differences. That makes the world boring and sadly makes players focus on stats and models, instead of possibilities for role-play (and thence you have lots of Enkidukais that don't even act as the setting would propose). Also, I don't know how well you've read the setting, but racism is present in Yliakum. It's just mentioned that there's no open wars happening because for the most part everyone are living together (after all think about it, is there no racism in USA?). Stonebreakers are obviously racist. You can base it on the fact they take pride from their race as well as that they tend to quarrel with taller races. There was also a fight between Yians and Enkidukais, but it had nothing to do with racism.

Now:

“There are worlds where courageous heroes who stand for all that is good and righteous watch over populaces of decent folk who seek to enrich their own lives and better those of the people around them.

This isn’t one of those worlds.

The Old World is one of blood, pain, sacrifice, treachery, deceit, and malice. Many of the Empire’s ‘heroes’ are dangerous rogues and blood spattered butchers. The people of the Old World are superstitious and insular, swift to believe the worst of others and slow to trust, often with good reason. Corruption is the rule, honesty the exception. Those few bright souls who still manage to accomplish truly heroic tasks frequently have to act under cover of darkness, lest they be accused of being in league with the very forces they try to combat.

Sound like fun? Good.”

That's why I love Warhammer, especially the second edition. Outside of the mainstream market, it remains original in its dark fantasy setting :)
Despite that in large part it's a gathering of fantasy cliches, it makes them very unique.
For example war between dwarves and elves didn't end with situation when elf and dwarf will spit in each other's eyes on sight. Instead dwarves, who maintained strong relationship with humans passed them some of their mistrust for magic. From that point the situation becomes spicy, since humans got it all wrong and most actually believe all elves are practicing witchcraft. In small village peasant people are quick to burn elves at stakes; In bigger cities being an elf draws you attention of the witch hunters (and there's actually unofficial payment called "tax for ears"). And if you really are a magic-using elf and witch hunters found out about it... Well, I hope you enjoyed your life. It's really something you don't see in other games. While elves are the most powerful of all races available for players, they have a serious drawback. Sessions with me as a Game Master became known for this racism part. It's already hard to be a dwarf in a human society. But players who play elves started automatically putting their hoods on or even hiding under tables, when suddenly city guards walk into the tavern they hang out in. There are some elves embassies, but they don't work quite well in a corrupted government.
The chosen one syndrome is non-existant there. Players are meant to play simple people. People who for some odd reason started adventuring. It's very easy to die there. If you don't wear platemail armour (which is very expensive by the way), even a single goblin may kill you if you're unlucky. Acting as a saviour isn't act of heroism. It's a mental problem. We have a player who tried to play a prideful and righteous elf in our team, but after spending too much time with my shadow mage character, eventually he became known for his... moments. In the end our team consists of a murderous maniac, a shady manipulator, a shameless halfling thief, an ethics-deprived drunkard, a mean dwarf and a quarrel-seeking warrior. Some team, hmm? There was also notable power-hungry pyromancer (fire mage), but my character got annoyed with him threatening his life once, so eventually he met his demise in some odd circumstances ;)
It's how the setting works on your characters anyway.
Authority worship... heh. I don't think any player in our team ever played character that does that. Corrupted government, witch hunters... There's nothing to worship.
Eurocentrism is there since the empire is placed in part of world shaped after medieval Europe. However, if you go to south, there's more African culture and on the east there's Arabian one. Plus, there's also New World far behind the ocean.

To conclude, originality is to be found in subtle elements. If you focus on the obvious elements, more often than not, you will forget about everything that remains out of sight. As a result you'll have cliched world under illusion of unique races and location.

[Raleigh]

@Draklar: I was not mentioning racism primarily on the sense of prejudice among characters, but mainly on the sense of stereotypes. And yes, any dark environment is more interesting than a "disneyland" or too peaceful scenario, that's why I have a preference on the dark cyberpunk themes(and steampunk too )

Diaboli are highly charismatic. Why shouldn't they take advantage of it when they know they may get away with it?

Because if they aways are untrustworthy for the smaller things, they will never be trusted enough to acquire power and take advantage on the larger things, of course a too short-sighted and short-term mindset would elimate this. Just as an example, a certaim charismatic individual never behaved publically as "untrustworthy" to  a certain nation on the 40s, to the point of actually being supported, and everybody knows the monstruous slaughter he was responsible for leading after it.

[Draklar]

Not being trustworthy doesn't mean others must know about it or that you prove it in any given situation. Everything includes manipulation, which Diaboli are masters at. Truly charismatic Diaboli will hide his true aims and try to manipulate the public, and even after gaining power, maintain hiding the aims under disguise of righteousness. Not all Diaboli (actually very few) will act as such, but none the less they are more likely to do so than all the other races (simply because they can). That's how stereotypes come to life.
But the main reason not to make Diaboli all that trustworthy is because... they look devilish and have as devilish name. Making them otherwise would bring forth lots of confusion. Cool thing about fantasy is that it takes folktales and twists it around to fit it into the given setting. Most of fantasy so far came from pagan folklore. Here we have a case of race finding its beginning in the Abrahamic tales. I think that's a pretty unique touch by itself (well sure, we already had angels and devils in fantasy, but they lacked fantasy manipulation).

And stereotypes are useful in role-playing games. Without them all races will act like the Ylians should.

[Xanacru]

Why not make a diaboli that is honest and trustworthy for example?

You're right that it's written nowhere in the settings that they're all dishonest and untrustworthy. Part of the problem was a distinct lack of Diaboli NPCs around which to base any example. We have some now, and yes there is a mix of good and evil in there.

Just wanted to address this particular point.

Diaboli are a happy, bustling, malicious race, quite unreliable. Humility is completely foreign concept to them. Their familiarity with some of the semi-intelligent races that dwell in the Stone Labyrinths has raised suspicion with the other races.

That doesn't exactly scream trustworthiness. However, they get people to trust them through their charms and manipulation anyway or at least they try.

Won't get into the rest of the discussion though, since I hardly have time to play PS nowadays.

[LigH]

There we are again: Generalization. Up to the point that some people seem to reject the possibility of exceptional individuals in contrast to the statistical average of a race, or a bias / predjudice based on tales from the ancient.


All Gipsies in general will steal.

All Scots in general will be stingy.

All Diaboli in general will be evil and not trustworthy.


So who makes the stereotypes here: The settings team, or the biased player?

[Xanacru]

Which official setting or description of the world does it say that about "all Scots" and "all Gypsies"? A "God's Manual" perhaps? It's an opinion or a rumor started by people themselves, therefore your examples are wrong.

The Diaboli nature isn't an opinion or a rumor started by in-game NPC characters or even by the players themselves but an official description on the website.

It doesn't say "some", "many" or "most". It does say "race". That's as to the core as it gets. It does not say "the race tends to be...", therefore it leaves no room for interpretation or exceptions.

Some people just read it incorrectly.

[AendarCallenlasse]

Raleigh: If a majority of fantasy books are LOTR clones to you, it is you who needs to expand your horizons.  I've read countless fantasy books that are nothing like LOTR.  Anyone who says all fantasy books are the same, clearly has not read enough fantasy books.

Take for instance the Sword of Truth series I'm working my way through now.  Fantasy novels.  No elves, no dwarves, no halflings.

[Valorius Rageway]

OH give it a break, Val.  You enjoy player killing.  That's why you duel so much.

I enjoy dueling, yes. To me, it is the most exciting part of the game, yes. I've sat in DR in the library with dozens of other players and dueled for hours at a time, so i know it's not just me.

I also RP for hours at a time with fellow guild leaders as well (aka diplomacy), which i also find to be great fun. I train extensively(which is not so fun), and participate in all the GM events i hear about. I am also quite active in idle chit-chat at harns with my fellow players, and have often gotten involved with various players' RP's as well. So while i most certainly enjoy dueling and warfare the most, i consider myself an 'all aspect' player. The only thing i really don't get into is crafting, which to me, is as boring as watching paint dry.

To each their own however, you won't see me knocking other people's in game preferences.

I've said this before, but I think duels should be removed from the game.  This annoying subculture would disappear overnight as a result.  My character in-game is a sociopathic serial killer who has murdered many high profile characters, so I'm not saying this without any fondness for the PvP system.  I just think the benefits outweigh the costs.

EXCELLENT! We can all just knit instead!!!

---

I find myself largely in agreement with Xanacru and Aendar on the points they raised.

[Karyuu]

EXCELLENT! We can all just knit instead!!!

I'm disappointed in your attitude. Lack of PvP in a game does not make it a boring game. In fact, it's often quite the opposite.

[Illyria]

EXCELLENT! We can all just knit instead!!!

I'm disappointed in your attitude. Lack of PvP in a game does not make it a boring game. In fact, it's often quite the opposite.

* Illyria nods intensively "Remember that fighting with mechanics not always comes out the same as when you fight RP-stylo"

[zanzibar]

I've said this before, but I think duels should be removed from the game.  This annoying subculture would disappear overnight as a result.  My character in-game is a sociopathic serial killer who has murdered many high profile characters, so I'm not saying this without any fondness for the PvP system.  I just think the benefits outweigh the costs.

EXCELLENT! We can all just knit instead!!!

Right, because the only thing to do in game is kill other people.

[Valorius Rageway]

EXCELLENT! We can all just knit instead!!!

I'm disappointed in your attitude. Lack of PvP in a game does not make it a boring game. In fact, it's often quite the opposite.

I disagree that a fantasy-role playing game that is devoid of combat is as good as one that has it. Fortunately for all concerned, PS has it in healthy doses, without coming even close to being 'just another hacker'.

D&D without the combat would've never been anything. No one would remember it. And the same is true for LOTR and the Hobbit. This entire Genre is built around conflict, adventure, bravery, and war.

It just is.