Planeshift.. boring??

[Lokter Tarvitz]

yeah! i would like to see some new monsters in the new release! and those attacks would bring the role-playing community together for a while and give them a sense of purpose (kill the invaders)

[drah]

There are some guilds that enjoy a mixture of both RP and action (PvP) and embrace the excitement and fun that can be had in both.

But in PS... there are a fair few RPers that are anti-PvP and they tend to complain a lot... so you'll find guild-wars, etc. are under strained conditions.  If we try to have fun... it inevitably ends up in complaints that it's OOC (They will find a reason... trust me!!!)

And so people feel like they'll be shot-down for engaging in such activity.  It's far better in PS (apparently) to narrate a story and call that "roleplay" than it is to immerse yourself in battle fully and YES.. use your player skills to assist your charachter (the same as you use your player skills to negotiate terrain and play sub-games... but this paradox is always ignored and we who like to have some fun always end up vilified for some reason or another.)

Many of us have spoke about it, and we can't be bothered with tackling various forum members, the GMs and the Devs about it... these people already have the path plotted... and if you like PvP... well, expect it to be butchered (at least in regard to any use of player skill) until it's purely dice-rolling and stats... nothing else.

In the interim, while it's still fun... grow thick skin and enjoy the ride.

Also note these forums are dominated by those who aren't fans of PvP... so expect me to be contradicted in t-minus 10 seconds

[Raleigh]

Also note these forums are dominated by those who aren't fans of PvP... so expect me to be contradicted in t-minus 10 seconds

     Not me(I'm not mainstream either), although I hate PvP in MMORPGs because  @Drah, one way or another it'll be character stats and dice rolling based unless it is supposed to become a FPS, I only really like PvP in FPSes and Strategy Games(Although I have a preference for Strategy on competitive play). Now there is a difference between having PlaneShift as a PvP playground with a RP flavor and roleplaying with emphasis on warfare and combat against intelligent opponents instead of dumb mobs(because one way or another, NPCs will always be dumber and less fun to fight with in a combat than real players, as we don't have strong AIs yet. ). And regarding combat, I already expressed my opinion a while ago that I would rather watch a war movie than press the "play" button to see a repetitive combat animation over and over as both are passive experiences, although the first is much more entertaining. Problem is: we have large wilderness areas with no authorities at all where a smart thug could easily kill somebody and cover-up what he did, and yet some people insist on killing others in front or very close to Harnquist, where there would be dozens of witnesses and realistically, whoever did it would either get arrested or killed.

     In other words: Want to duel or kill? Go to the wilderness! There are dozens of different landscapes there that also give an interesting tactical element to it! And no dumbing down of PvP because(flame me as you wish): unless this was a singleplayer game, PvE will suck compared with fighting against real people! What we need is some in-game systems to make it realistic, perhaps adding some tension as a murderer will have to cover up his deeds before somebody discovers. And also to put the physical(agility, timing, etc) part as character skills, but the tactical side as a player skill, with bonuses and perhaps even a realistic physics model to make things like weather, terrain elevations and positioning make a real difference(I know I'm daydreaming a bit  ). This way combat will not be entirely passive, but it will require some player skill that will not be based on agility with a mouse or keyboard. Now, 100% character-skill is impossible, unless we turn this game into a 100% passive experience where we create characters that will be entirely controlled by AIs instead of ourselves and all we could do then would be to watch them.

[Jeraphon]

Problem is: we have large wilderness areas with no authorities at all where a smart thug could easily kill somebody and cover-up what he did, and yet some people insist on killing others in front or very close to Harnquist, where there would be dozens of witnesses and realistically, whoever did it would either get arrested or killed.

     In other words: Want to duel or kill? Go to the wilderness!

I like the way this man thinks.

[neko kyouran]

In the wilderness, no one can hear you scream.

[wither]

I agree, warfare in the wilderness would be alot more fun, since you would to be more tactical.  The problem there lays though, that there is no way in this game to take prisoners of war, or lock down your opponent.  Which makes warfare then become a slaughter, which drags on an on, unless one side gets bored and yields.  And this moves the war into the spawn points, be it DR or Hydlaa, because mechanically, that is the only place to hold your opponent.  I think what we need, is a spell or something, that enables you to hold an opponent, even if only for 10-15secs, make the mage work to hold the other person, this would then allow you take POW's, if youre powerful enough to overcome them, and thus, you dont have to kill every enemy, send them to DR and Hydlaa spawn points, but keep them out in the wilderness, unable to move, a POW.  Just my 2 cents.

[Valorius Rageway]

Uh oh!!!! Good VS Evil!
Uhuh. Honestly, thats the most boring stuff I can imagine. Its still same. "Me good, me kills evil" or "Me bad, me kills good" Boooring. And unrealistic.

And Guild wars. Hm.... Seeing the actual PvP system, I'm glad they are low. Its unfair system and its PS is really not about PvP at all.

You know i see these comments, but i dont recall ever seeing this character do anything in any way combat related any time in recent memory.

PS sure seems to ALSO be about PvP to me, and....to many players. Just not to Miaua. To me, PS is not about parading around town with another fenki in a matching outfit. It is not about 'playing house', which so many seem to want to do. The style of PS that some play would bore 90% of us to sleep.

PS has to be about what each player wants it to be. Therein lies the beauty of it all.

I've fought in 5 PS guild wars, i like them just fine.

[Natrina]

This way combat will not be entirely passive, but it will require some player skill that will not be based on agility with a mouse or keyboard.

 Ahem. What is the idea of an RPG again? Weren't you talking about the inevitability of people being unable to roleplay dumber "beings" them themselves (which hurts RP) and now you're thinking about basing the character's skill on the player's?

 In general, I think this whole discussion is a bit... Can't name it, even. Yes, PlaneShift doesn't have much action, I admit I myself have my periods of activity conditioned by random on the spot aims such as getting buddy-buddy with merchants, needing to fill in an order, training to be able to make gold ingots.

 Yet, one thing I think is missing in your minds. This game isn't PC-focused. Look at it, the devs want most of us to be what realistically our characters would be in a medieval setting: banal. The game will develop even without a single Player Character. Evil guilds, good guilds, heroic epic fights between those, what are you talking about? Yliakum is protected by the Octarchs. They protect pretty much everyone. Even if you are "evil" or "good" from the moment you kill someone you'll be, setting-wise, a criminal. You're not recognized by the npcs, you're no better then the other faction. The only way I can see you could make that work would be an "evil" guild against the city and a "good" guild that, having the guards' "yey", helps defends the city.

 What most people don't do is to submit to the settings and it doesn't look like you care, you're just looking for fun. So sure, go ahead and have it, but asking for approval or to turn the game into that is a bit wrong. Our roleplaying quality is currently low, considering fidelity to the settings. Even if you try hard, you'll probably end up "godmodding" yourself into them (such as the Sunshine Enforcers, which was a guild that claimed to be part of the Sunshine Squadron), which is still "wrong" from a validity point of view. Nothing we can do about it, in general. For now, that's a sad truth and until the game develops we'll be shotting blindly. And that is why "everyday life" is a roleplay that is quite much more "real" then those that you consider as more fun.

 Now, what I'm trying to say is that we'll have to wait. With time each path of the game (Economy/Arcane/"War", Individual/Guilds, etc) will develop and you'll be able to experience a better immersion that should bring you more fun and let you join those quests for good or evil. Currently, I've seen that through the npcs you can already start to immerse your character into one of the paths (such as getting closer to the Onyx Dagger, or to the guards. Factions actually makes questing more then just doing it to get items and you should take attention to that), so it's not as bad as one would sound by just listening to many of you. Anyway, let's see what the new version brings us (and it seems to be coming now, IMO), it might shut us all up.

P.S.: Gah, I take too long to write. Valorius, I emphasize my "submission to the setting" argument to you. PlaneShift *is* a free game, but that doesn't mean you'll actually be able to do whatever you want. Well, at least remember that many paths will be difficult and some will be a certain fail. You can still aim for them, right, but you'll fail.

[Valorius Rageway]

I agree, warfare in the wilderness would be alot more fun, since you would to be more tactical. 

...........The problem there lays though, that there is no way in this game to take prisoners of war, or lock down your opponent.  Which makes warfare then become a slaughter, which drags on an on, unless one side gets bored and yields.  And this moves the war into the spawn points, be it DR or Hydlaa, because mechanically, that is the only place to hold your opponent........

Those are some excellent observations.

The only way to 'win' is to trap the opposition in the DR and kill them until they give up or all log off. And even then, some will deny defeat. "We held our own"....sure you did, until you got 10 feet out of spawn....

I had a player tell me, "That war wasnt fun, the odds made it impossible"....

Well, duh. Losing a war isn't exactly supposed to be a pleasant experience, and when the opposition is hard-headed on top of it, it results in total slaughters.

[Feline Prince]

What do you "win"?

[Valorius Rageway]

What do you "win"?

IC Wise, fame, noteriety, power, revenge, blah, blah, blah.

OC wise, guild wars are just plain lots of fun though. A darn big chunk of the PS populace wants to fight, and really enjoys it. They're just shouted down on the forums by the extremely cliquey and fiercely defensive and vocal "RPers" who keep telling us there is no room in PS for "you PvPers".

<Shrug>

[Velh Krome]

Natrina,

I just read your post and it gave me some seconds of a little confusion, which turned into an annoyed feeling very soon. I wouldnt care if you think about the Enforcers were godmodders, but spreading it in public makes me shake my head.

you'll probably end up "godmodding" yourself into them (such as the Sunshine Enforcers, which was a guild that claimed to be part of the Sunshine Squadron)

On one hand you judge them without obviously knowing what they were about at all. Those guys were applicants and no members of the Squadron so far, only their leader was, and his manners and behaviour was honorable, true and well-wishing, according to the setting. I have read their entire logs.
The applicants neither shared his state nor his noble and honest manners, hence they never were thought to be/become members of the Squadron, from the beginning on.
I dont intent to start some discussion about the definition of godmodding, but keeping as close to the setting as possible I dont expect to be godmodding in the end.
Anyways.. Grewan in his very kind acting was treated with much hate and dislike - what about people agreeing to the setting? Shouldnt they have been much more pleasedly to meet such a decent loyal of Yliakum? Was it because of their name/guild-tags were green instead of yellow/red? And as long as certain mechanics are missing in the game, whats wrong with playing them in a proper way?
Those shall be my only words trying to clear up about them.
On the other hand: What I care more about are the points of views of many roleplayers around - lacking of trust. I dont want to think about the reasons of why they prefer to expect other people's roleplay to be godmodded, (thats not pointed at you only, Natrina) be it arrogance or has it something to do with their own style or whatever, yet it makes it kinda hard and for me not really enjoyable to plan things.
Why should I give efforts to consider as many as the rules and laws (ingame ones and setting), if in the end people come shouting and complaining about godmodding anyway? I didnt join this game thinking about how to trick and sneak the rules, but due to the fact that I like the pictured world and want to be a part of it. And taking part of doesnt mean bending, modifying and avoiding to me - in this case I would prefer playing another game that suits me more. Bored? If lack of that trust leads to blaming of godmodding whatever efforts are taken, at least I will get bored..

But, until now thats what made me never had thoughts about PS could be boring: Planning things, considering environment and possible issues (ic-ones) and getting it to fit perfectly! And even then, people intervening your game in a proper manner, making you think and forcing your char to change tactics.. brr bare thinking about it, I wish the server would come up again soon!

[Raleigh]

This way combat will not be entirely passive, but it will require some player skill that will not be based on agility with a mouse or keyboard.

 Ahem. What is the idea of an RPG again? Weren't you talking about the inevitability of people being unable to roleplay dumber "beings" them themselves (which hurts RP) and now you're thinking about basing the character's skill on the player's?

 Yet, one thing I think is missing in your minds. This game isn't PC-focused. Look at it, the devs want most of us to be what realistically our characters would be in a medieval setting: banal. The game will develop even without a single Player Character. Evil guilds, good guilds, heroic epic fights between those, what are you talking about? Yliakum is protected by the Octarchs. They protect pretty much everyone. Even if you are "evil" or "good" from the moment you kill someone you'll be, setting-wise, a criminal. You're not recognized by the npcs, you're no better then the other faction. The only way I can see you could make that work would be an "evil" guild against the city and a "good" guild that, having the guards' "yey", helps defends the city.

     You should make a request to disband the Dark Empire then, as you believe the game isn't PC-focused and all characters are supposed to be banal and useless to anything besides their families and limited boring personal lives.

      A game that doesn't focus on the players isn't a game, but a simulation. NPCs will never have any stitch of intelligence that could be compared with the human creativity and capability, and if the focus wasn't on dynamic PCs but on the static NPCs, then the answer to the question done in this thread would be "Yes, and it will be forever boring!". And I would like to remind you that some actions were done in the past being accused of godmodding from your character's organization, related with some "Imperial Grounds", and thus I think you should be compreensive of how this "godmodder!" excessive banter is actually completelly harmful to roleplaying. If your idea of a RPG is something where the player just watches his characters doing things based on an AI, you should join a research program on AIs then(because this is the only way a RPG would be entirely based on character skills, as I wrote before, otherwise many things that depend on intelligence will rely on the player). Finally, the Octarchs aren't perfect and with all those invasions from the labyrinths, guards might be more focused on them than on the typical lowlife thug that is butchering somebody in a dark alley at night. And the Settings shouldn't be a straightjacket  to cripple creativity, but general guidelines that shouldn't be be interpreted in an unrealistic, anti-immersive and utopian manner(if you know what I mean) that only adds to the question of this thread.

       Finally, what's the point for a former '1337' to attempt roleplaying if all he'll get for his efforts will be accusations of godmodding? This hostile climate is something I would rather see gone. And @Velh's point is quite interesting. If only GMs had the authority to make an event, Proglin, for example, would never have the opportunity to join the team, as his first events were done when he was a player. The "gold  tag" of GMs is completely OOC, and dismissing people's event because there isn't one character with it in them is completely OOC.

[Duraza]

Natrina,

I just read your post and it gave me some seconds of a little confusion, which turned into an annoyed feeling very soon. I wouldnt care if you think about the Enforcers were godmodders, but spreading it in public makes me shake my head.

you'll probably end up "godmodding" yourself into them (such as the Sunshine Enforcers, which was a guild that claimed to be part of the Sunshine Squadron)

On one hand you judge them without obviously knowing what they were about at all. Those guys were applicants and no members of the Squadron so far, only their leader was, and his manners and behaviour was honorable, true and well-wishing, according to the setting. I have read their entire logs.
The applicants neither shared his state nor his noble and honest manners, hence they never were thought to be/become members of the Squadron, from the beginning on.
I dont intent to start some discussion about the definition of godmodding, but keeping as close to the setting as possible I dont expect to be godmodding in the end.
Anyways.. Grewan in his very kind acting was treated with much hate and dislike - what about people agreeing to the setting? Shouldnt they have been much more pleasedly to meet such a decent loyal of Yliakum? Was it because of their name/guild-tags were green instead of yellow/red? And as long as certain mechanics are missing in the game, whats wrong with playing them in a proper way?
Those shall be my only words trying to clear up about them.
On the other hand: What I care more about are the points of views of many roleplayers around - lacking of trust. I dont want to think about the reasons of why they prefer to expect other people's roleplay to be godmodded, (thats not pointed at you only, Natrina) be it arrogance or has it something to do with their own style or whatever, yet it makes it kinda hard and for me not really enjoyable to plan things.
Why should I give efforts to consider as many as the rules and laws (ingame ones and setting), if in the end people come shouting and complaining about godmodding anyway? I didnt join this game thinking about how to trick and sneak the rules, but due to the fact that I like the pictured world and want to be a part of it. And taking part of doesnt mean bending, modifying and avoiding to me - in this case I would prefer playing another game that suits me more. Bored? If lack of that trust leads to blaming of godmodding whatever efforts are taken, at least I will get bored..

But, until now thats what made me never had thoughts about PS could be boring: Planning things, considering environment and possible issues (ic-ones) and getting it to fit perfectly! And even then, people intervening your game in a proper manner, making you think and forcing your char to change tactics.. brr bare thinking about it, I wish the server would come up again soon!

I do agree to a certain point. The thing is people are very picky about the settings as a whole. Whats too far fetched and whats even too close. Everyone gets so touchy about rules and what belongs and what doesn't and how to play right that they wonder why people get bored of this game. The simple fact that many people miss in the end is that this is a GAME. People play it for fun, not to argue about whether they roleplay correctly or whether something does or doesn't belong in the settings. My opinion is that in the end the roleplay settings are to strict and limiting. From that came players who became touchy about the settings. When they see someone breaking the settings they become even more touchy and soon enough it gets to a point when they believe they can "smell godmodding." Any rp they suspect is godmodding they complain about and instead of helping someone learn how to improve their rp with the settings they just complain that the person is godmodding and leave. As this "virus" spreads the players become more concerned about what is and isn't in the settings. You can tell from the fourms. Every now and then something happens and a thread ends up full of complaints. The more and more people get closely attached to the settings the more boring and full of complaints the game gets.

What people forget is that the game is incomplete which means that the settings can be changed or added on to. But instead they just complain on and this results in more people being scared to move away from the settings. This leads to the un-original guilds everyone is always complaing about. As a result those same complainers start to tell people to be original. In the end the final statement is "be original just stay within the settings." All those last words mean to most people is to just quit trying. People always say "its not hard" and while it doesn't have to be some players make it that way. Now am I trying to say everyone runs around trying to put others down? No there are plenty of players who try and help people to be original within the settings. However sometimes your at the point where you want to quit anyways because your thinking its not worth the effort.

In the end if your looking to stop being bored than there's one simple cure. Don't interpret the settings as Ylikaum "Word for word." Know that there are and will be things outside what is alreay mentioned. Does that mean if someone says they have a car that you should except that? No however think "medieval setting." It someone says something that can belong to that sort of setting then let it go and have fun with it. If they don't or you know that its not in ps specifically then tell them and have them change it.

[Aiselyn]

I'll admit that I haven't read everything before posting this post so sorry if I'm saying some things that have already been said, but here goes....

Fact is, it's easy to forget that Planeshift is in development. Personally, I saw what Planeshift was 3 years ago and it has come a long way since then. Sure, the rp overall has remained roughly stagnant with it's ups and downs, but there's a lot more to do now than there was to do back then. I think the important thing is patience. As for improving roleplay events, I agree that the devs need to stress it more, but at the same time they can only do so much at once and this game is far from over anyway.

As for the so called "godmodding", I encountered these Sunshine Enforcers and I felt their idea was a great idea. I didn't feel they were godmodding at all. To me godmodding means to make one impossible to defeat, or create an unfair advantage. These guys did not entirely claim to be the Sunshine Squadron. They were potentials recruits for them. Is that really godmodding? Besides, if everyone was afraid of godmodding, people would be afraid to make certain bold moves like these and our roleplay in the game would be even worse than it is right now.