Author Topic: RP fights vs. game mechanics  (Read 4972 times)

Kaerli

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Re: RP fights vs. game mechanics
« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2008, 02:38:15 pm »
My 2 Tria:
I learned to RP-duel from Farren first, so I learned how to do it WITHOUT dice before I learned anything about dicefighting.  Non-dice RPdueling is definitely the way to go if you know what you are doing; however, nobody said it was easy!  Here are some concrete hints from my RPdueling experience.

1) Confining all the duel-related OOC chatter to a group is very helpful (however, it is also hard to do, especially when you have people watching the fight).

2) Be willing to have your character take a few licks every now and then, even if you have a char who is as well-trained as Kaerli is (Casewen probably remembers when he stabbed Kaerli in her thigh with a training-dagger during their one and only sparring match!). 

3) Be detailed, yet artistic in your actions, while allowing the opposing player a chance to react.  Make certain to specify which body part the attack is coming from, what body part on the opponent is being attacked, and what kind of attack (punch, thrust, slash, stab, knee, ...) is being performed; however, you also need to preserve the flow of the chatbox.  Ideally, the chatbox in RP should be readable almost like a book.

4) Don't assume that because your character can't do something, that nobody else can do that thing.  For instance, Kaerli's melee-fighting style relies on jointlocks instead of punching and kicking alone.  It is highly effective at subduing would-be assailants, but it can also lead to some OOC confusion about what is going on, as not many people can visualize what happens when someone's elbow is bent backwards past the fully-extended position.  This also holds true for magic...

5) Be cognizant of where blades hit and also how deep the blows cut.  A slash can be stopped short by armor and/or bones, for instance.  Blade length and profile also influence wounds.


P.S. The problem with dicing (short for dicefighting) is that there is no such thing as a totally fair dice system.  For instance, simply /rolling d6 penalizes strong, skilled warriors (such as Kaerli) excessively, while stats rolls don't work well with characters who may not be statistically strong, yet are skilled fighters anyhow. 

Quq Leque

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Re: RP fights vs. game mechanics
« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2008, 02:55:32 pm »
And somebody has pointed out that not everybody has a time to train. Well, most of the players have jobs, schools, studies, families, pets, other hobbies... etc.:) As I wrote in my first post - if you want to have 5 chars, why do you need play somebody who can easily kill others just like that? Play a farmer, librarian or a barmaid.

And a Yulbar pet store owner, i'm sticking to that one, we need a pet store. pets are underappreciated in RP, fights included in the future (/pet attack :))

ok ok slightly off-topic

Suno_Regin

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Re: RP fights vs. game mechanics
« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2008, 03:10:39 pm »
Yeah, uh...just clarification, that attack on Meredee wasn't to relieve boredom, that had a reason. I even explained that to her (No, I'm not the guy the actually attacked her).

My 2 Tria:
I learned to RP-duel from Farren first, so I learned how to do it WITHOUT dice before I learned anything about dicefighting.  Non-dice RPdueling is definitely the way to go if you know what you are doing; however, nobody said it was easy!  Here are some concrete hints from my RPdueling experience.

1) Confining all the duel-related OOC chatter to a group is very helpful (however, it is also hard to do, especially when you have people watching the fight).

2) Be willing to have your character take a few licks every now and then, even if you have a char who is as well-trained as Kaerli is (Casewen probably remembers when he stabbed Kaerli in her thigh with a training-dagger during their one and only sparring match!). 

3) Be detailed, yet artistic in your actions, while allowing the opposing player a chance to react.  Make certain to specify which body part the attack is coming from, what body part on the opponent is being attacked, and what kind of attack (punch, thrust, slash, stab, knee, ...) is being performed; however, you also need to preserve the flow of the chatbox.  Ideally, the chatbox in RP should be readable almost like a book.

4) Don't assume that because your character can't do something, that nobody else can do that thing.  For instance, Kaerli's melee-fighting style relies on jointlocks instead of punching and kicking alone.  It is highly effective at subduing would-be assailants, but it can also lead to some OOC confusion about what is going on, as not many people can visualize what happens when someone's elbow is bent backwards past the fully-extended position.  This also holds true for magic...

5) Be cognizant of where blades hit and also how deep the blows cut.  A slash can be stopped short by armor and/or bones, for instance.  Blade length and profile also influence wounds.


P.S. The problem with dicing (short for dicefighting) is that there is no such thing as a totally fair dice system.  For instance, simply /rolling d6 penalizes strong, skilled warriors (such as Kaerli) excessively, while stats rolls don't work well with characters who may not be statistically strong, yet are skilled fighters anyhow. 

Somehow I get that this post was to promote Kaerli's fighting skill. :P

But I agree. The chatbox in all of the RP fights I'm in are always a line from a book, then after that a Q&A session that's just ridiculous. It's not so much being descriptive, it's just knowing how to read.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 03:44:15 pm by Suno_Regin »

Suno_Regin

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Re: RP fights vs. game mechanics
« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2008, 03:36:58 pm »
[Crap, been a while since I've double posted >< Delete this please]
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 03:44:06 pm by Suno_Regin »

Zan

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Re: RP fights vs. game mechanics
« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2008, 04:08:20 pm »
No! Maybe for you fighting is the best thing that you can find in game, but not for me and not for many other players! Im not a violent person IRL and Im not playing a violent character IG. My char trains her swords mostly to feel safe and to be able to defend herself when somebody attacks her.

Why are you a member of "The Warriors" again? :P Perhaps if you want to be left in peace it'd be helpful joining a more peaceful organisation.
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Duraza

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Re: RP fights vs. game mechanics
« Reply #50 on: January 21, 2008, 04:29:35 pm »
But my main complaint is why take so much time to train your char, only to decline duels?

While I never max my characters out I do try and train and I still decline duels. My first reason is because I simply like my characters to have stats appropriate to what they role play. All my stats are admittedly not up to date for every character but I try. Secondly since most characters that I do spend time fighting with are mages I never duel because I'll obviously lose.... :P

No! Maybe for you fighting is the best thing that you can find in game, but not for me and not for many other players!

As I wrote in my first post - if you want to have 5 chars, why do you need play somebody who can easily kill others just like that? Play a farmer, librarian or a barmaid.

Think about what your saying here. While I agree with the majority of your post I'd just like to point these two things out. If fighting is the best thing someone can find ingame then why suggest to them to play as an obvious normal person who they most likely won't enjoy rping as and give up on the next day? Yeah, there are a lot of people taking the role of the killer, villain, hero, etc. No matter what role you take you shouldn't be able to easily cause slaughter everywhere. At the same time though because some enjoy rp fighting and they happen to have all their characters for that person can you really be mad at them? Its like someone telling you that you need to start slaying people randomly. You'll just end up being sick of this game quickly.

Yes, everyone says there are too many people playing the "epic" villian or hero. Your probably right however I don't see that as a problem. People will always go for those roles no matter how much we argue and saying "You can't be the hero because there are already 5 other heros" won't work. Besides I don't think the amount is really the problem. I think the problem is too many of these people are out to "win the game." There are too many epic people who are not roleplaying these roles for the entertainment of themselves and other players. They are doing it because they want their characters to have some kind of power no one else has. They want to somehow be higher than other players. However rp god mods aren't the only problem. This whole thing in my mind is double sidded, the other side being pvp god mods. In most leveling MMORPG's people sit around leveling for hours in order to achieve this same goal. They want to "beat the game." They want their character to be stronger than all other characters to have some kind of leverage over them. It happens here on planeshift and no matter which kind of god modder you are your just as bad as everyone else.

The solution to this? When game mechanics and rp work together which won't be happening anytime soon. Till then you might as well keep fighting restricted to the groups of people you can trust. For the most part the game is already seperated like that. Its when those groups try to mingle that trouble causes  :P
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Meredee

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Re: RP fights vs. game mechanics
« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2008, 04:53:07 pm »
Why are you a member of "The Warriors" again? :P Perhaps if you want to be left in peace it'd be helpful joining a more peaceful organisation.

I'm in The Warriors, because I met some nice people from this guild and then when I felt it's a good time to finally decide for a guild I picked them :)
I think it's the most common reason for joining a guild in PS.


If fighting is the best thing someone can find ingame then why suggest to them to play as an obvious normal person

Well... I didn't want to suggest playing Quake ;)
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Zan

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Re: RP fights vs. game mechanics
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2008, 04:55:57 pm »
I'm in The Warriors, because I met some nice people from this guild and then when I felt it's a good time to finally decide for a guild I picked them :)
I think it's the most common reason for joining a guild in PS.

*sigh* ... sadly ...
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Duraza

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Re: RP fights vs. game mechanics
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2008, 05:03:37 pm »
Why are you a member of "The Warriors" again? :P Perhaps if you want to be left in peace it'd be helpful joining a more peaceful organisation.

I'm in The Warriors, because I met some nice people from this guild and then when I felt it's a good time to finally decide for a guild I picked them :)
I think it's the most common reason for joining a guild in PS.


It is the most common reason. I'm not going to say its wrong but I think when you join a guild it should be because you have alike goals, not because all your friends there and you want to hang out with them. Its like if you have a perfectly normal character who is kind and likes to help others with no fighting ability and then you try to join a guild called The Hydlaa Guard which prides itself of ridding the city and the roads connecting to it of evil and rogues. When everyone asks you why you joined you say "Because a lot of my friends are there" and it sounds kinda like a silly reason. Guilds aren't just groups of friends who roam around together with no specific purpose. You can have friends in a guild but you join it to help achieve their goals...

Of course like you said it is the most common reason so what I say won't stop anyone  :P
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Meredee

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Re: RP fights vs. game mechanics
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2008, 05:24:48 pm »

It is the most common reason. I'm not going to say its wrong but I think when you join a guild it should be because you have alike goals, not because all your friends there and you want to hang out with them. Its like if you have a perfectly normal character who is kind and likes to help others with no fighting ability and then you try to join a guild called The Hydlaa Guard which prides itself of ridding the city and the roads connecting to it of evil and rogues. When everyone asks you why you joined you say "Because a lot of my friends are there" and it sounds kinda like a silly reason. Guilds aren't just groups of friends who roam around together with no specific purpose. You can have friends in a guild but you join it to help achieve their goals...

Of course like you said it is the most common reason so what I say won't stop anyone  :P

 :offtopic:  :offtopic:  :offtopic:

Heh. Since the topic is not "Why did Meredee is in The Warriors guild" I simplified my answer and to be honest I dont think it is a right place to discuss it :) You can ask me about it IC. Besides, what you say about how to choose a guild is very idealistic and not really close to reality. I spent a lot of time looking for a right guild and all seemed to have the same goals: help eachother & have fun together. But this is offtopic, its almost as bad as lot of OOC in main, lets stop it :)
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Suno_Regin

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Re: RP fights vs. game mechanics
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2008, 05:26:41 pm »
It isn't off topic, really. If you join a guild named The Warriors, and say that you trained swords to defend yourself, why are you complaining about being attacked? That's just not logical. In the tutorial it even said that it was a law to be able to protect yourself and your property anyway, and as far as I'm concerned, you should play along with being attacked. In real life you can't just tell a guy mugging you, "Come back later, I'm busy"...that's just not realistic.

Izzabella

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Re: RP fights vs. game mechanics
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2008, 05:48:50 pm »
okay wow! so much to respond to I hope I Remember all this..first off a bit off topic but from something you said Suno I now know who is the guys's boss that was hired to kill Merede :P also

 A point I think Zan made....about waiting out in the wilderness..exactly no one is out there other than to mine gold, and if you try to stop them they just run right past you. Everyone knows that if you want to find a role player you go to Harns or the Tavern. yeah about OOC to pick a fight there but we don't have much choice, usually if I can I try to pick the fight there and then convince them to go to the north gate or something. If I do fight in the city I am willing to accept any inconveniences towards my char if the guards are called, or whatever.

The other thing I liked, Can't remember now who said it, but they said they like to RP most the fight and then actually use the PvP to determine the outcome and such, yes I really agree with you here, and really that's all I am asking for.. Because I do like to RP the fight to some extent, I just get tired of having my char god moded by someone with unrealistic powers that is invincible.

I would also like to point out, that Izzabella is not a maxed char, yes she is strong and I've worked very hard on her (twice :P) but to be honest I hate training..its SO boring. I usually take along a friend and RP and or bug my friends in tells to pass the time. But I decided a long time ago that if I was going to RP a mean, tough fenki she was going to have be able to back that up with her swords. I don't know maybe I am beating a dead horse with a stick now..

And Suno your last post here, yeah I touched on that a bit too..I am slightly annoyed with all the tough "warrior' type guilds (not the warriors specifically but guilds that in their names suggest they would fight, if for nothing else the good of Yliakum) and you get in a fight with a member and take time to RP a lot of stuff only to talk to the leader and get "oh we are not as war guild" seriously now..think about your name then. but anyways..


I just wanted to thank you all for you opinions and all you have helped me see the other side which is really what I wanted to try and understand.  Also thanks for you time to read all this and even respond, I appreciate it.

Duraza

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Re: RP fights vs. game mechanics
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2008, 06:25:09 pm »

It is the most common reason. I'm not going to say its wrong but I think when you join a guild it should be because you have alike goals, not because all your friends there and you want to hang out with them. Its like if you have a perfectly normal character who is kind and likes to help others with no fighting ability and then you try to join a guild called The Hydlaa Guard which prides itself of ridding the city and the roads connecting to it of evil and rogues. When everyone asks you why you joined you say "Because a lot of my friends are there" and it sounds kinda like a silly reason. Guilds aren't just groups of friends who roam around together with no specific purpose. You can have friends in a guild but you join it to help achieve their goals...

Of course like you said it is the most common reason so what I say won't stop anyone  :P

 :offtopic:  :offtopic:  :offtopic:

Heh. Since the topic is not "Why did Meredee is in The Warriors guild" I simplified my answer and to be honest I dont think it is a right place to discuss it :) You can ask me about it IC. Besides, what you say about how to choose a guild is very idealistic and not really close to reality. I spent a lot of time looking for a right guild and all seemed to have the same goals: help eachother & have fun together. But this is offtopic, its almost as bad as lot of OOC in main, lets stop it :)

I'll respect that wish but would just like to mention that you need to realize that the IC goals of the guild can and most likely will get you into more IC trouble. Thats why, though "idealistic" as you put it, its important that people realize two things. Firstly to choose a guild that suits your character and secondly you don't need to join a guild to play the game.


The other thing I liked, Can't remember now who said it, but they said they like to RP most the fight and then actually use the PvP to determine the outcome and such, yes I really agree with you here, and really that's all I am asking for.. Because I do like to RP the fight to some extent, I just get tired of having my char god moded by someone with unrealistic powers that is invincible.

Eh I'm still agaisnt pvp so I have some advice for rp fighting agaisnt people who act "invincible." Simply don't give into them. Now if they are saying "/me hits you in the head with great force" and they refuse to change that sentence to "tries to hit you" then they are a lost cause period. Don't bother. No one should be able to force actions upon you. If they are rping some kind of super power don't let them feel as if you need to rp your character as inferior. If someone says "/me attacks in the blink of an eye, trying to cut off your head" I'd simply OOCly make the judgement that no one can "attack in the blink of an eye" and say back "/me dodges to the side." If they start with you OOCly saying "how'd you dodge something so quick" you go with "I decide how my character reacts, not you."

Never let someones story about their character and his/her amaing and or supernatural powers let you feel as if you need to rp your character weaker compared to them. Just because you have a special trait it doesn't mean that I can't beat you. Its your choice to decide how powerful a character measures up to your own. Its god modish and I wouldn't advise you use this against everyone as then you will quickly become a god modder. However if you have an annoying god modder I'd suggest this as the way to deal with them ICly.

Just remember that while you don't have to rp being weaker than someone you don't have to rp being stronger than them as well. You decide if you are weaker than someone else but no one can decide themself to be stronger  ;)
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Re: RP fights vs. game mechanics
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2008, 06:34:36 pm »
I spent a lot of time looking for a right guild and all seemed to have the same goals: help eachother & have fun together.

Not right! Those are the guilds that usually seem to shine over others, which doesn't mean they are the only ones, let alone the right ones... Perhaps you should have seeked a little deeper :p
Sorry, I couldn't resist ^_^

It isn't off topic, really. If you join a guild named The Warriors, and say that you trained swords to defend yourself, why are you complaining about being attacked? That's just not logical. In the tutorial it even said that it was a law to be able to protect yourself and your property anyway, and as far as I'm concerned, you should play along with being attacked. In real life you can't just tell a guy mugging you, "Come back later, I'm busy"...that's just not realistic.

It is off topic, and personal.
And this is not real life, it's a game and you have the right to decide who to play it with, don't you?
You don't play with powerlevers and decline duels because you don't think it's he right way to play it, she may think otherwise and you ought to accept it as well. As simple.

But back to topic:
The biggest problem I see with RP fights, (and here I have to agree with Anumesa, all these last events have made me pretty sick of it all) is that most roleplayers involved in such kind of fights are unable to step out of their characters and gather a general point of view towards the whole game and the rest of the players. It doesn't really matter if your character dies, if this other character dies, or if all run away and the next day they take some beers at Kada El's altogether. When we decide to RP-fight we are mostly saying: dueling mechanics are yet in a very early state of development and we want to have fun with a fight for we are DEALING a way to make it FUN. Methods are unimportant if you are going to fight against a player you know well and are aware that will be using common sense. Sadly this is not the case most often because some players don't realise that what really cares is that EVERYBODY should be having fun with it, not only the ones who play supernaturally powerful characters and that are always meant to win. When there is a set winner beforehand the fight itself has no sense, the loosing party could all /die and that would make it much smoother and probably avoid the ooc rantings and consequences some of these fights have been bringing as of late.

Why do I vote for dice rolls in an RP fight?
Well, it's quite true that considering the already big amount of ooc comments needed to take one of these fights to a pleasant outcome, dice rolls do usually increase such and make it uglier. However, as I mentioned above not everybody is the kind of player who would even take a scratch, or who is about to let you make a move, or is playing a balanced character who may have flaws and even (oh my!!) some weaknesses. Therefore, I'd rather find a previous agreement among the players who are going to partake (in group chat or elsewhere, occ) about what dice to roll and how in each situation. I personally like to support my RP with training but I'm totally aware that not everybody has the same amount of time I do/had to train a character so I try to give every character the relevance their backgrounds drive me to (not meaning you can create a character and come to me pretending it's godlike just because you made a fancy description -.-). For instance, if you play a character who is skilled in weapon fighting and you are facing a powerful mage, it would make sense to me that you are rolling a s15 die for weapon attacks while he rolls a s10 and viceversa, you'd roll a s10 for defending from his s15 magic rolls. And why are rolls necessary at all? To avoid stuff like this, even though when you play a godlike character dice may not help either, as you'd be rolling always more sides than your opponent ;)
The reason why non-rolled RP fights become a mess most of the time is because the third time a player realises he kept taking attacks for the sake of balance but none of his hit the target because such has a surprisingly incredible skill in avoiding absolutely everything, that player tends to be driven to either let himself be killed to stop the madness or start acting godlike himself.
As long as not everybody realises that balance is critical for providing a pleasant experience for everybody this problem will remain.

Why am I not fond of pvp dueling anymore?
Luck. Lag. Powerleveling. Mechanics' early development. Lack of fun. Lack of realism.
Luck, lag and powerleveling deserve no more comments.
Mechanics' early development: As it's already been pointed out before, magics have no place in nowadays' dueling, neither armors or weapons have a realistic effect on the wielder. Examples: Players with lvl 60 in heavy armor will just move as quick as a player with lvl 60 (max. at this point) in leather armor, but instead will take MUCH less damage. You can nail a plate armor with a dagger just as good if not better than with a claymore. Etc...
Lack of fun: I've been into dueling for long and I've as well seen how roleplayed pvp duels happen and end. Normally, you spend some time trying to evaluate the lag in whatever map you are, then try to time your attacks if you can figure where the other player really is, then at some point you may have enough luck to hit your opponent and with some more luck, double hit and get rid of him with only one strike (usually after some minutes of running around). When such thing is done, the winning player normally will not roleplay any sort of harm suffered but most likely outer some taunts and brag about how strong he is, not even considering the chance of having been hurt or even scratched (hey, their HP is at 100%!). In an RP-fight there is rarely an unwounded character and even winners usually are hurt, if not have lost a part of their body, or suffered changes that will affect the future of that specific character and its surroundings.
Lack of realism: Honestly, sorting any roleplay having two people run around and jump like mad (maybe aimlessly!) with a huge sword in each hand doesn't make any sense to the viewer or other roleplayers involved, and if that would happen in the real world both would probably be caught and shut in an asylum for life :p
A dueler may bring another point of view: Such situation may be as stupid-looking as two people facing eachother, doing apparently nothing but using a chat box to type in. however, here does join something that may have never been considered by them: Imagination ;)

As a sidenote: I must thank Duraza/Xeonart for making of every single RP-fight a very exciting (and fair!) time. Respect!  \o/

Meredee

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Re: RP fights vs. game mechanics
« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2008, 06:49:41 pm »
It isn't off topic, really. If you join a guild named The Warriors, and say that you trained swords to defend yourself, why are you complaining about being attacked? That's just not logical.

Exactly! I trained my swords so that I can use them. Rolling dices doesn't give the possibility to do it.
If you never try, you'll never know.