Uneventable Me (I, Roleplayer)

[Kaerli]

Exactly, only that takes FOR-FREAKING-EVER for some characters!  (Kaerli's stats and skills STILL don't quite accurately reflect the character and I've been training/developing her for many, many months!  Thankfully, I can RP around it by using an IC concept of training, but for some other chars, it can be a while before they even come close to being RP-ready!  Add the difficulties mages face due to the combat vs. magic imbalance to that picture Parallo...and it's pretty horrible  )

[Parallo]

Most of my characters are mages. I know what you're talking about.

[Under the moon]

You guys are wrong. What you are describing are not Roleplayers. They are going beyond RP to Godmoding (for lack of a better word). They are ignoring the stats that the game gives them and making up their own.

I -am- a roleplayer. I play by my exact physical and ability stats. I do not train. I do not grind. I do not have anything against those who do. I simply do not have the time to waste on simple-minded grinding that is boring, tedious, and lame mechanics-wise.

Add into that that grinding is a VERY limiting path for roleplaying. To be a fighter, you have to be a ruthless killer. To be a mage, you have to be a ruthless killer. To be most other things at the moment, you HAVE to be a ruthless killer. I am not even taking mine-grinding into account to pay for that training.

Honestly, I don't wish to play the zealotic killer so completely devoted to training that he will kill anything in his path to get a little better. That is completely unrealistic on so many levels. It is simple mindless slaughter for no reason. You have to 'pretend' you are even doing any other than killing things only for your own selfish advancement. This article has some good points (though I do not agree with all of it).  http://www.raphkoster.com/2005/12/30/the-evil-we-pretend-to-do/

I have nothing against 'powerleveling' in games, and in fact have done it in other games where it A: Was fun. B: Made sense for the character. In PS, for me, it falls short on both counts. That is why I create a character in Character Creation (yes, I use a 'cheat sheet') as close to the character I want to play, then play by those stats as someone who is at the -exact- level they want to be.

[Velh Krome]

[..] like just about every thread on this forum devolves into a debate about RP vs PL vs balance

At least my intention was it to either call for more tolerance towards people creating off-setting-guilds (the same way they have to be tolerated ingame), or to make some clearer definitions about PS. Current description of the game may imply its quite much focused on RP, but considering some people I met, who were rather happy and eager, but soon again left since their expectations werent satisfied, perhaps it should be rewritten.
But since my suggestion was only nitpicked on, leave it aside and let me ask a question instead:

UtM, what you say is all fine and candy. I have my chars trained to their meant-to-be stats, and if the chars job/business requires it I have it fighting (mechanically) now and then. For my hunter char I try to always have some animal parts at hand. But of course I cant play him using his meant-to-have bow.
You say people should limit their RP to already available technical options, only to have their chars abilities backed up by levels?

[Prolix]

It is true, what UTM says, to an extent. Personally I consider Arena fighting against the humanoids as non-lethal even though it is a stretch. It is where I do most of my fighting but there are some very large problems with the game mechanics at this stage of development. I believe it will only get worse with skills slated to be unlimited.

One of the current problems with the mechanics is that it is nearly impossible to train organically. You should not have to stand in a pool of weak creatures to optimize armor training. It should have very little effect. You should be able to fight with normal weapons to train them efficiently and fight critters that are fairly well matched to do so. Lastly you should be able to generate enough money and progression points crafting to pay for more training. Someday these things will be balanced out.

Anyway this is all old ground travelled enough to be a well worn rut.

[Under the moon]

No, I am saying you should not 'rp' that you are able to lift and wear 500 pound armor when you can't. Things that the game does not yet cover are fair game. I am also saying the training system is limiting roleplaying options.

[Juranian]

I know this will probebly get me flamed, but how about, in our char description, we put at the bottom of the page, Rper or Pler, that way we can avoid the crowd we don't belong to, I'm not for seperation, but it seems some people just don't want to intergrate due to the rejection of grinding or being able to rp without mechanics, now this would split the game in two probebly, but then at least the two major crowds could be happy with themselves?

And i agree with UtM, about realisitc standards, no matter how strong your mechanics are, try to respect the setting, no one is a god, please don't try to be one 

[Parallo]

You guys are wrong. What you are describing are not Roleplayers. They are going beyond RP to Godmoding (for lack of a better word). They are ignoring the stats that the game gives them and making up their own.

I am not saying that you should train to the point of being absurdly strong. In fact all my characters are underpowered on purpose. That is the level I wanted them to be. I don't want to play a god. Its unrealistic and not fun. I don't want to play a fumbling idiot (though some of my characters are but for the sake of this example we'll say I don't.) Therefore I settle on what I want to get my stats to and preform OOC actions to get them there since it is impossible to do so otherwise.

[Under the moon]

Godmoding does not mean being a god. It is simply acting outside of your character's abilities (call it OOA? Out of Abilities.). In a way, it is as OOC as acting in a way your character would not. That is what this thread is about in a way. Roleplayers not wanting to act outside of their character's personalities to actively enter into all events. Not wanting to slaughter creatures to get stronger is the same thing. So, while it seems that many RPers are trying to avoid using the existing mechanics or not taking part in events, it is really because the mechanics do not allow the type of character they wish to play, or the events are not something they would take part in. I have been in some events, and walked away from others. The reason is that they offer variety. I can do some without stepping OOC. Mechanics do not allow that at all. There is one way to start the game, one way to train, and that is it. If you want to be the peace-loving monk who has become an expert fighter, but would never kill a thing, you do not have that choice.

[Parallo]

The game does give you stats. You can of course change them through training. The character creation is often difficult to get precise and is of itself an ooc method to get the character you want. Whats the harm in training oocly to do so too? Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding. It seems that we're very close to agreeing but your post was right under mine and it said "You guys are wrong."

[Dajoji]

This thread is not about labeling the players or criticize those who don't join events or those who train.

It is about taking the time to ask ourselves how (in)flexible we are being in certain scenarios of a game in development. I applaud those who stick to their character's nature and sit events that don't fit them out, but I worry about those that cannot really roleplay with anyone because either nobody meets their standards or because they can't really RP without pointing out other players' flaws and the reason why they do not join events is not because they don't fit their characters but mostly because they know someone is not going to RP properly and that is something they cannot stand. Of course someone is not going to roleplay properly, but chances are they will get better with time. They just need to get some experience at it. The important thing is that they are trying and that we have policies to deal with them if they become disruptive.

So, this thread does not claim roleplayers are the problem. In fact, a person with an I, Roleplayer mentality opposes the roleplayer/player PS expects to have. And this thread is not about pointing the finger at anyone and how they play the game, but being self-critical and trying to avoid certain attitudes we can fall into.

[Illysia]

This thread is not about labeling the players or criticize those who don't join events or those who train...
So, this thread does not claim roleplayers are the problem. In fact, a person with an I, Roleplayer mentality opposes the roleplayer/player PS expects to have. And this thread is not about pointing the finger at anyone and how they play the game, but being self-critical and trying to avoid certain attitudes we can fall into.

This is the real subject of this thread which has gotten lost in the RP vs. PL argument. Thank you Dajoji the the statement "this thread does not claim roleplayers are the problem." Because too often that seem to be what ALL RPers get accused of.

[Waoknie]

Hello all..

  I can only bow to Dajo's thread.. very good one indeed.. best in months IMO..

I also read Utm & Parallo's posts and I truly agree that there are problems with the I-RPer.. Now, I believe the I-RPer is far more harmful for the game than all PLers together.

Some say they're true and devoted to the so called 'game orientation' or as Mythryndel said, "...the TRUE intent of PS, which is the almighty RP..." but sorry fellas, they are not! specially when they become a sort of I-Rper.

I collected a couple of quotes from prior posts of mine:

 "RolePlay: To express your character's way to be." ..

"...the fact that to defeat an opponent the RP way is so difficult, makes it THE ONLY TRUE WAY TO DO IT FOR GOOD."

And I brought these two just to point that I agree with UtM and the critic to 'Godmoding' by putting it so clearly.. But also to remind some really bad and annoying self-declared RPers that a char can be killed a thousand times but the player can be defeated just a couple of times via his character.. and that can only be done through a good roleplay. The rest is just a fight hobby inside the game.

[Under the moon]

Parallo, no, that was not addressed to you. I was disagreeing with the definition of RPers as extremists that ignore game stats and 'text' everything. I completely agree that you should RP by your ingame stats.

The game does give you stats. You can of course change them through training. The character creation is often difficult to get precise and is of itself an ooc method to get the character you want. Whats the harm in training oocly to do so too?

No harm in it at all... if you can tolerate it. I just don't like doing it. I have tried before. Honestly, it makes me hate the game and not want to play at all, so I avoid it by creating characters that do not need to be trained. Am I missing out on characters of 'higher' level? Yes. But to me, it is simply not worth going through the depression-inducing grinding to get to that point. I don't want to hate playing that character by the time I get it to where I want it.

The point of my "I, UtM" post is that though I consider myself to be a devoted roleplayer, I accept many ways of playing the game that others enjoy, as long as I am not forced to do those that would go against my character's nature.

[Parallo]

Ah, I see now that we are actually almost totally in agreement. Just that I have more patience
Its probably just the fact that I have so many books lying next to me that allows me to train to the way below average level that I do.