I need help... (turned into a complain)

[Catlemur]

I want to organize an RP event but I need two new quests being created for it,a new NPC and a specific reward.Is it posible and if yes who can help me with that?

[Aiwendil]

LOL

From Game Master Team

Q: What can a GM not do for me?
...

    * It would not constitute favoritism or compete with activities conducted by players in the game.

For example, GMs will not give out items unless part of an RP quest or event. We cannot give items upon request for every player in the game, so it is unfair to do it for a few. This would also interfere with player economy and the worth of items.

If you want to do a RP don't expect any help of GMs or the PS team at all. First most of them have no clue about roleplaying anyway and second even those very few who have aren't allowed to help. So either you do it alone or yu better look for another game where RP gets support.

[Illysia]

Aww... my niceness is coming back...

Aiwe... be nice.

However, I can tell you that it is not very likely to happen Catlemur as NPCs are just a prop to be thrown up and pulled down. It would not only take too much effort to make you NPCs just for your event but also the reward of custom items would prevent problems. That's more along the lines of Aiwe's quote. However, I don't think it would be as devastating a problem in terms of the favoritism issue as it would have been in the past since there is are way fewer players to get up in arms about it.

 I would say it is more beneficial to make a book item and find players willing to play the part of your characters. You might even be able to convince them to make a new character according to your specifications.

[Aiwendil]

Hey..I was nice...I left out the logs and examples of the marvelous RPs of some PS team members .

[neko kyouran]

another point not mentioned, anything the gm/dev team does is pretty much considered cannon settings wise as far as i understand things.

so if they went around helping people with requests like that, they'd first have to clear it with the settings team and what not, which can take awhile.  far nicer for everyone if the gm's handle the official events, and the players are just given the proper tools to create their own.



But then you have the whole, "players don't have enough tools" argument all over again, which then the other side says, "they'll have them in due time", in which the first side then says "that answer isn't good enough and wants them now", in which the other side responds with "that if they want them now they are free to apply and help make them faster", in which the first side then says "they don't want to, or the application process is too hard, or some other excuse, and just blames the other side for not making the game more open to players" in which the other side comes back with some type of remark that then the argument devolves into pointless bickering from both sides and nothing ever gets accomplished and then the people that just lurk in the shadows sit back and laugh at both sides all the while some people get all upset at what happened and quit the game only to continue posting on the forums about how they quit the game and won't bother returning until everyone changes in X amount of ways they spell out in long posts across the forum, in which most people skip over and don't bother reading anyways, and then some other people even blog about what happened on the forums or go to third party sites to flame about it, and finally some one reports the thread for all that's transpired in it and the mod staff comes in and has to try and clean it up and make every calm down.

[Aiwendil]

So everything is pretty pointless. Just have fun with trolling in the forums for some time and then better forget about PS.  

[neko kyouran]

or you could be an optimist and try to work out your differences and try to bridge the gap of player and gm/dev staff to come to a common ground and work together to make the game better for everyone.  much like eli has tried to recently do with the skunkworks project.


myself, i'll simply keep on what i have been doing; enjoying my time in game with friends and meeting new people at every turn and listening to their interesting stories they bring while doing my part to further promote the game's development cycle.  

but, this is the internet after all, and logic and reason seem to get lost in the tubes along the way.  so philosophical topics such as this simply devolve into witty one liners that eventually leads to the philosoraptor making his glorious appearance.    so i guess, bottom line, go have fun.  just try not to step on other people's toes too badly in the process.  like you, i'd rather be having fun in game, than doing the 'evil mod' duties i'm sometimes forced to do.

[Sarva]

The GMs did rename an item to The Champions Cup  for an ongoing series of events that are player run. Also at engraving events it is possible to get items renamed which could be used to support a player run event.

[Illysia]

Now neko shows his true colors. After all the complaining about people arguing in the forums over such things he just goes and show that all he really wanted was a chance to do the whole argument by himself. But he's being lazy. He only described the long posts rather than writing one out. And just to note, those long posts were read... just mostly by other people inclined to write long posts... but hey a long post describing grievances is better than spamming "you suck" all over the place. At least you know why people are upset.

or you could be an optimist and try to work out your differences and try to bridge the gap of player and gm/dev staff to come to a common ground and work together to make the game better for everyone.  much like eli has tried to recently do with the skunkworks project.

In light of the fact that this is in response to Aiwe's comment, this is funny. You should ask him about bridging that gap sometime... I'll spare you all my experiences in that field as I'm sure that post would be "too long."






I think books are better than renamed items though as you have more room for detail. Items that have the right model are nice but even that isn't always quite the same as being able to convey to another player exactly what you mean.

[neko kyouran]

In light of the fact that this is in response to Aiwe's comment, this is funny. You should ask him about bridging that gap sometime... I'll spare you all my experiences in that field as I'm sure that post would be "too long."

i use the word 'you' loosely to talk to the target audience as a whole.  if i meant you as in one specific person, then i would have used a quote to designate which person i was specifically referring to.  



I am fully aware of Aiwe's previous involvement with trying to better the game and how it turned out.  And whereas there are some members of the team that don't care for the tone and word choices Aiwe uses in their posts they make on these forums due to those past events, I try to maintain a fair and balanced forum and respect them enough to let them have their say.  Now, i'd be nice if they could word their points in a better constructive manner, but the same thing can be said for many post made by some members of the PS team as well.  

to get back to the main point of my first post; to me, it seems both sides need to chill on the hostility front.  calm down, think before you post, and relax a bit.  its nice to see everyone so passionate about the game and them wanting to make it better, but everyone, player and dev alike need to have some patience and realize it isn't going to get there over night.  it will, however, get there if everyone stops the endless circle that most posts on these forums seem to end up falling into, and try to work together to come to an agreement about the topic at hand, rather than degrade into useless name calling that threads have seem to be falling into lately.  

but that's also partly my fault for taking such a hands off approach to moderating these past months, and just really letting threads try to work themselves out.  So i will hold myself accountable in that regards for what has transpired.  So lets try and be a bit more friendly and try to get things done in a more constructive way this time around shall we?  no time like the present to start after all.

[Illysia]

Sorry for the  stuff Catlemur but some topics never die.




I understand the general "you" but my point is not who but what. The efficacy, or lack thereof, of that tactic has been proven in the past.

For the longest time I said everything in as conciliatory a way as could be done without getting both sides of the argument to turn against me. I even risked ticking off both sides by trying to work in the background to get everybody to calm down and come together. Ask Lhaa how many times I asked him to lay off on the GMs and be nicer to them. I worked with both malcontents and the PS team and actually stayed around longer than most from either group. Despite that and the similar work of others, nothing got better. The problem is that such things are like putting a bandaid on cancer and hoping that one of these days it will work.


I agree on the needing to chill thing but there's a reason it flares, there's never any real progress or change from either side. And it would take a really big bag of some mellowin agent to get everyone to come together as no matter what, the cycle just never seems to get broken... even after malcontents leave. However, I'd say that it is less your fault these last 3 months as a lot of the really heated stuff was in the complaints department which you don't mod if I recall.

[novacadian]

If anything, the hot emotions that one sees on the forum; regardless of the side of the debate; indicate the emotion which PS brings out in all camps. That, in itself, is not a bad thing. It is really telling all of us that there is at least something that is important to us in some way. They could be shared or separate reasons; yet bottom line is that PS means or has meant something very strongly to all that are caught up in such threads.

That is a Good Thing (TM).  Nova winks mischievously to Illysia

Perhaps the happy place is to except PS exactly what it is and where it is at any particular now; borrowing from eastern spiritual teachings of the same approach used in life, generally.

The divide grows when there are some folks in the discussions which have the abilities to make a Wish into reality and those that would not know where to start; yet know exactly what they would like achieved. My suggestion would be for those that have the abilities to give a good ear to dedicated players for their feedback and to be open and clear why they do not want to follow a particular direction. It could be, "It just doesn't interest me enough to dedicate my free time to it; let me tell you about this cool project I'm working on". Or how it doesn't work with settings, engine capabilities or server load. Whatever the reason; even if the dead end of it is not of interest; lay it out there to help remove some of the divide.

On the other side, those without the abilities required to bring a Wish to reality might want to show some respect of the time of those who have the abilities. More will get accomplished with logic and calm posts then heated emotion.

In the meantime we all except things as they are at any point in time to be what is and go from there.

"Talad's Blessing upon you!"

- Nova

[Sangwa]

Say, I have some recent experience with getting frustrated and throwing a fit. I must say I did it in a much cooler fashion though, since I just insulted everyone right away and got the hell out of here... Until I felt homesick... And then kind of wrong.

The game's about playing a character in Yliakum, and it has some rules in both development and playing. So you can play, or you can develop it... But you have to follow the rules. These give space to some modifying towards a better roleplaying atmosphere, as we've seen from the past experience some people refuse to believe in.
However, it's been documented that progress is very slow in PlaneShift. Don't like it? Please leave. Want to troll? Welcome. Just don't bother my friend Neko here. I like him.

Though I disagree with him on one thing. This "woeful cycle" is not really woeful at all. This won't stop because it kicks ass how you can say what you want how you want in the internets and it hasn't stopped us from getting somewhere. Yes, yes. I repeat. Very slowly.

To keep in topic. It's normal that GM's won't help every single soul that comes around asking for help with their plot. What's not normal is saying you've got dirt on people, when that dirt is actually saying they can't fake they're someone else. Boohoo. If they can communicate then they can learn if they want to. If they don't want to, maybe they have other things to do like coding or designing or answering questions a robot could. Hell, you can even write a story without having to make believe you're something.

[Illysia]

Ah yes well that is all fine and good until you account for the fact that some of the most vehement complainers were contributors in some fashion and the perceived waste of time is part of what pushed them over the edge. Especially if the person felt spat upon or spited, gratitude will not be forth coming and for the people that typically turned to trolling this is the case.

It's one thing to wait if you haven't neglected your own life in the interest of promoting and improving the game, it is quite another to invest time (sometimes years) and effort like that only to see more or less the exact same state despite the efforts of many like minded people. Also toss in that progress this slow isn't a requisite even for a game made by volunteers and that makes for some pretty ticked off former players.

However, considering that many players despite their different backgrounds and desires seem to blow up and leave for many of the same reasons, I think that would be enough to conclude that there is a pattern worth looking into. i.e. :

My suggestion would be for those that have the abilities to give a good ear to dedicated players for their feedback and to be open and clear why they do not want to follow a particular direction.

But I can't see this happen as the team, with the exception of Eliseth and maybe Rlydontknow, seems to be too busy chasing down trees to worry about the whole forest. Many people knew exactly where to start with what they perceived a problem but they got ignored as just complainers for their efforts to help (even if said efforts were harsh). The problem is that it doesn't take pages and pages of long posts to only complain, even if you repeat yourself constantly.

But why bother writing out a well thought out critique and solution if it gets panned as bashing? I tried to be as specific as possible in my earlier suggestions, I tried doing research among past and present player base and I tried to say it as diplomatically as possible without dumping the critique entirely. The grand result was that the last attempt ended up locked and called bashing... Many older former players saw that, declared nothing had changed and gave up if they hadn't already. Some of the newer players stopped and questioned whether it is was even worth bothering. That's not conducive to progress and it's the same effect every time that happens to someone with a concern that won't just go away because the words "in development" get tossed around.

Like you and Neko say, Nova, both sides need to chill, especially whoever it was with mod powers that got delete happy a few months back, and come together but I don't foresee that happening to any great affect any time soon, even with the skunkworks project... Ideas are already out there, what you need are people that are humble enough to say "ok, why not? ...and if that doesn't work then we can scrap it and try another suggestion".

To me the best example of this problem was the intro system. The team tried to listen to the players and the system didn't work so well. I wouldn't call it a failure but it really needed some fine tuning. However, it felt like the team was embarrassed and tried to avoid listening and acting so directly after that when it was unnecessary. It's perfectly reasonable that the first implemented iteration of a system might not work so great, there's nothing wrong with having to scrap an idea or two or rework them. Especially since the game is in alpha as people are quick to point out. but it just really seemed like after that the team just tried to apply more of its own random fixes rather than listening to the players' concerns, an exception being the OSP but that seemed to be the brainchild of a few people who aren't necessarily around anymore either.


@Sangwa: Most don't feel bad later as they weren't just throwing a hissy fit. *runs away giggling*
Seriously though, in case you missed this part of the usual argument as of late, people are typically shoved into the "you have to be a tester more than a player, but if you have fun playing then whatever," category and that rubs people raw as most people would rather be more balanced or just play. It feels like the project hides its faults behind being "in development" but has no sympathy for the fact that most of its players are voluntary, amateur testers. It often sounds like people are told to test or shut up and it is unfair for a non professional team that is unable to provide a commercial level product to ask for perfectly profession testing from players that are actually in the same position.

[Aiwendil]

Now, i'd be nice if they could word their points in a better constructive manner, but the same thing can be said for many post made by some members of the PS team as well.

Fair request, just really hard to do for me nowadays. Catlemur being in the Skunkwork group made me forget he is a pretty new player who isn't used to my way of writing posts (nowadays). The quote in my first post was really meant to show him that what he asked for won't be possible...just had to add my usual dose of sarcasm that better should be ignored by people still having fun with the game. So along Neko's words I try to offer a bit more constructive suggestions for his request to at least pretend to stay on topic here:

First I can only agree that RP-book-items are the best way do go in such cases. You have much better control about the description this way and even can reproduce them is necessary. Also they can be done much faster than anything that needs GM involvement.
For the rewards...mhh..okay I try to be nice here. Too large rewards are usually a bad idea in my view. Just go with a little bit of money as reward. If you offer special items then there is a good chance you will get player taking part in your event who only want the reward and don't really care for your RP. Forcing people to RP just to satisfy their greed never worked...will only leave you frustrated about an event that didn't run very well and the players annoyed about having to read so much and getting nothing in return.
But I more want to say something about the NPCs part. Not really sure what you have in mind there but for RPs I think it's usually better to use some alts and get other people involved playing alts also. Player controlled characters are far more flexible and give a much better atmosphere than dumb NPCs. For example you have the possibility to play the char already some weeks before the event actually takes place and make a name with the char, find some friends and integrate him/her/kra in Yliakum's daily life. This often will also lead to events looking less scripted. We had an event about a robbery of a exploration party once...and tried to blame the leader of that party for it. Too bad just that the leader was already around for weeks before the event, made friend with some people who then wanted to prove his innocence. That gave use almost two months of RP of intrigues trying to hide the ones who were guilty and keep on blaming the innocent leader...what still didn't really work out in the end. Was a lot of fun and nothing we could have planned in advance. It only happened because that leader-alt-char had an own personality and spend a lot of time with integrating himself in the game.

Now to the off-topic part. What the hell is going on here? Stop taking my posts serious. Read them if you want, take what helps you and ignore the rest. The game is not really worth caring about for me anymore...only a few people here are. I know that there aren't many players around anymore who really know how harsh posts written by me before I stopped playing were..and even much less knowing how nice my posts before that were. My current posts are almost "tame".

or you could be an optimist and try to work out your differences and try to bridge the gap of player and gm/dev staff to come to a common ground and work together to make the game better for everyone.  much like eli has tried to recently do with the skunkworks project.

And the skunkwork team has my respect for trying. Just doubt anyone could think I would be still up for something like this nowadays. And I think it's also clear that I have my doubts about it working out very well...but that doesn't change I hope they succeed with it.

like you, i'd rather be having fun in game, than doing the 'evil mod' duties i'm sometimes forced to do.

Mod duties itself aren't evil. Only the way they are done sometimes can be seen as evil. I can think of only one time I ranted about your mod work...what was already after I stopped playing and wasn't about anything really important. I might have ranted already a few times before...but then wasn't aware it was about you as I often didn't know who deleted my posts. Never really had any issues with you...most of the time only with some others who played Mod in the forums.

The GMs did rename an item to The Champions Cup  for an ongoing series of events that are player run. Also at engraving events it is possible to get items renamed which could be used to support a player run event.

Oh...sorry, didn't know that's possible now. How about updating the rules that in very few cases GMs might provide some limited help for player events. Not only true about the rule I quoted. As far as I know the last official statement about in-game posters is still this for example. So there weren't any posters put up for players in the last year? As I try to be constructive I will leave out the comment about the engraving.

or you could be an optimist and try to work out your differences and try to bridge the gap of player and gm/dev staff to come to a common ground and work together to make the game better for everyone.  much like eli has tried to recently do with the skunkworks project.

In light of the fact that this is in response to Aiwe's comment, this is funny. You should ask him about bridging that gap sometime... I'll spare you all my experiences in that field as I'm sure that post would be "too long."

Better not...or I would write a long post again that only ends up deleted in minutes. But my opinion is not important about this anyway. I have no interest anymore trying to improve the game. That's up for the new players now. Also the game isn't the same anymore. The reasons people playing nowadays (except having fun) are different than the reasons why I (and you) played so they have other needs (which I hardly can understand).

On the other side, those without the abilities required to bring a Wish to reality might want to show some respect of the time of those who have the abilities. More will get accomplished with logic and calm posts then heated emotion.

Even "bonus of respect" for working on PlaneShift can be used up at some point...nobody involved in those "heated" discussions started without respect for the others. Most just ended up without any respect left. Oh...and I think you miss an important group there. Those who with the abilities to "bring a wish to reality" but are ignored or want something that isn't wanted for PS.

But why bother writing out a well thought out critique and solution if it gets panned as bashing?

Because I am naive at times and really think some people are able to read. At least I don't get disappointed anymore when finding out most aren't.

To me the best example of this problem was the intro system. The team tried to listen to the players and the system didn't work so well. I wouldn't call it a failure but it really needed some fine tuning. However, it felt like the team was embarrassed and tried to avoid listening and acting so directly after that when it was unnecessary. It's perfectly reasonable that the first implemented iteration of a system might not work so great, there's nothing wrong with having to scrap an idea or two or rework them.

Very true. Scrapping the whole system because it didn't work right from the start and then using it all the time as an example of what happens if devs listen to players was...not very ideal. First an introduction system would be still a nice addition and second by this logic half of PS had to be thrown away as it doesn't work correctly in the first implementation.

but it just really seemed like after that the team just tried to apply more of its own random fixes rather than listening to the players' concerns, an exception being the OSP but that seemed to be the brainchild of a few people who aren't necessarily around anymore either.

Mhh...the OSP was a nice idea at the start...but pretty soon it didn't feel like a project to listen to players concerns anymore but a project to keep players under control. But I know we have a different opinion there.