I need help... (turned into a complain)

[Sangwa]

Novacadian: I think the solutions is _much_ simpler. You just need to ignore the specific part. You need a mount? Then just go speak with the concerned people and they'll tell you what you need. Why would you need to deal with a smuggler beforehand? Just so it looks cool? Well, it doesn't look cool. It actually looks crappy.

you don't have to. just because an NPC asks you to do something doesn't mean you have to.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying no one can actually roleplay to deal with the smuggler. Let me give an example:
Sangwa has gets an item this dwarf needs for an unique event.
Albert gets an item this dwarf needs for an unique event.
Sangwa and Albert can't roleplay getting this event because it was meant to be unique.

What has some urgency are the single player quests since no one can roleplay them.

let's remove NPC quests then \o/ it's totally OOC brado needs his tavern cleaned off rats a thousand times per day or that jomed keeps asking for mushrooms, too.
honestly: that one simply falls into the "unrealistic, but accepted" category. it's always been like that and I've never seen even a single mmo that'd be an exception to that rule. why? because it simply doesn't make sense as nobody would be able to quest at all if it was layed out in a realistic way (e.g. that nice guard really needing his lunch only once a day, that shield having to be repaired only each few weeks/months, ...) - there'd be less quests to do per day than there are players online even on ezpc

I'm just using this example to further explain how you didn't understand me. I say quests like cleaning the rats make sense, even without restrictions. But quests like brado signing the same contract 1000000 with a performer aren't. Hope you got it.

Aiwendil, most times developers get us wrong because they're expecting us to just be trying to discredit them. We just have to be polite. Also, thanks for the work.

As far as helping players with their RP, that's hard to do. I think devs can only make things easier for us. If they do the early plot development like I've said, it should be enough.

[Illysia]

Aiwendil, most times developers get us wrong because they're expecting us to just be trying to discredit them. We just have to be polite. Also, thanks for the work.
As far as helping players with their RP, that's hard to do. I think devs can only make things easier for us. If they do the early plot development like I've said, it should be enough.

Being polite often gets you ignored. People have been all kinds of polite but not much has changed. And it is official team policy that RP is up to the players and devs do not concern themselves with that...

[RlyDontKnow]

Novacadian: I think the solutions is _much_ simpler. You just need to ignore the specific part. You need a mount? Then just go speak with the concerned people and they'll tell you what you need. Why would you need to deal with a smuggler beforehand? Just so it looks cool? Well, it doesn't look cool. It actually looks crappy.

you don't have to. just because an NPC asks you to do something doesn't mean you have to.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying no one can actually roleplay to deal with the smuggler. Let me give an example:
Sangwa has gets an item this dwarf needs for an unique event.
Albert gets an item this dwarf needs for an unique event.
Sangwa and Albert can't roleplay getting this event because it was meant to be unique.

I did understand it. but it's still the same thing. there aren't a million rats in brado's cellar either. so whether the smuggler was dealt with or the rats are already dead: it's the same thing, just a "do it once" vs "do it daily/weekly/...". it does not make sense to do it as often, perfectly agreed. but: it's an "accepted nonsense" if you want so as it's something you trade off for playability (assuming that needing a few thousand quests to just feed starters with meaningful quests is not considered playability).

it's really not that your point isn't understandable, but just think about it again. you'd need at least several houndred quests that are suited for the system you proposed (here and outlined in your thread) to just keep the few players busy we have. also re: your "plot quests" in that thread: there's no point in writing a quest for such a purpose, a GM event does just as well.

it's a completely different concept seen in many of the commercial "free to play" games (tons of new content intended for "single"(may also apply to sufficiently rare") use), however that's just not the way a "quest system" works. it essentially means replacing the "quest system" with a pure "event system" of which a few are cyclic. anyway, I'm sure you know enough about the frequency of GM events we currently have to know this is simply not realistic and I'm somewhat confident you may recognize that it's simply not practical at the current stage of development (probably not even once the game is in a finished state) as it requires a vast amount of story-writers as well as "actors" if I may call GMs so in that context to make that come true (even put aside the griefing that results from one-time quests and such).

[Sangwa]

@Illysia
They don't ignore you. They just don't lick your boots back. I've seen many things I've proposed to be implemented, even though it wasn't answered at the time.

Even without GM oriented plots, some creative players may be able to come up with a general plot type of thing. It hasn't been working that well so far, but I'll be trying to change that for the oncoming year. I like the players we've got around.

@RlyDontKnow
I don't agree with you. Rats keep coming, Joseph the Smuggler is just one and if he's caught he's gone forever. There's a great difference which is consistency: it makes much more sense to have quests that are actually tasks than having quests that well... are nothing but ways of getting items and knowledge that can't be used in game. The 'accepted' nonsense is much greater when you ask someone to save the same princess a thousand times than when you ask someone to clean the batch of rats that showed up today at the tavern.
But hey, it's your choice. I can only make sense.

As far as the general plots I've asked, I can't see what's the problem. The current events are a waste of time for everyone but the lucky ones who participate in them, while these events I ask would come up with material for everyone to use.
Dude even one of these each 2 years would leave these suckers happy. And all you have to do is 2 or 3 normal events separated in the time you decide you need. Then afterwards move NPC A to place Z and add a new line to NPC B. Tadah! Everyone is happy because stuff happens.
I'm not asking you to change the whole of Yliakum each time.

[Illysia]

@Illysia
They don't ignore you. They just don't lick your boots back. I've seen many things I've proposed to be implemented, even though it wasn't answered at the time.

As I have been ignored to my face, I beg to differ. I never expected boot licking, but if a solution that is being used isn't working... try another. One of the problems with this game is that there is a culture of trying to shove the round peg into the square hole at all costs. Maintaining status quo is kinda useless if there are barely any people around to partake in it. For an RP community that isn't as close knit and paranoid to outsiders as others, the online count is a really poor showing. Other communities have online numbers this low because they restrict the people that can join and will actually kick people out. This game just has a high turnover and people come in and then back out like they go through a revolving door.

[Sangwa]

Aaaah, natural selection.

I know what you mean Illysia. But that realization has its limitations: it can only be used to know the reality you are in. After having it, you should move on: either try changing things by yourself or stop lingering at the door. Though if you're okay with it, you can linger, I don't mind.

[Geoni]

Oh my eyes, thirty-five minutes of reading this thread and I've hardly seen anything that hasn't already been mentioned, debated, or ranted about. There are obviously two sides to the argument that is going on and neither one is saying much in terms of improving any thing or idea that hasn't been denied approval. I can start to see what the "evil dev's" (hey, a dev said that) point of view on what should be done. There aren't many devs around to do anything, may Talad want it or not. To add my own thought on what has been said on the thread, I would have to say that no matter what direction that this game is going in it will be unsuccessful at this rate, because for various reasons, some reasons more common than others, people don't join or stay on the team.

@Catlemur...whom is the topic of this mess of a thread: If you actually read this I want you to know that if you can't get these things then just roleplay having done those quests, and roleplay having the rewards. That's the best piece of advice that I have for you.

@Aiwendil and Illysia: I want to give some advice to you two. You have great minds and talents, but why spend the time you have making these long posts? Many of the things you have said and have to say get shunned, so why do you still bother? Anyways...the advice. Get away from this game. I know you're getting away from it, but you need to like...GET GET away from it. You could be doing better things than posting here, things that will bring you happyness. (unless recollecting and repeating previous critiques/rants and posting them nowadays is really making you happy?) What I sense is sentimentality of years spent roleplaying. the latter years leaving you with many unpleasing memories and experiences. Though I'm just guessing your motives and experiences but I don't really know them, so I'll not speculate anymore. No wait...I'll speculate one more thing about you two: you didn't join or stay on the PS team because you didn't want to help build their glass skyscraper because of how smudged and ugly it is getting due to some of the motives of a person (or more than one person) on the PS team, and you don't want to be one of their lab rats. Just stay away from this game, it's a waste of time to dwell. IMHO sentimentality is stupid, so my opinionated advice is to not dwell in it. I'm pretty much leaving PS because of some of the same reasons you two have, so perhaps I haven't been around long enough to have the same mawkishness. I dunno, you can take my advice or leave it, because I did just tell you to go away.

@Sangwa: I'm glad that you still harbor some reason to stay here...perhaps hope that things will get better...I don't know what it is, because I definitely don't have it. Just do whatever makes you happy and stop letting what others think bother you so much. (I'm guessing the reason you're throwing out post after post on this thread is because you are bothered by what others are saying, please correct me if I'm wrong).

Sorry, I had to poop out my weird clump of thoughts.  I'm not exactly graceful at writing posts about arguments like these. Sorry if I offended anybody by my speculations and guesses.

[Illysia]

They are long because we want to complete our thought whether or not anyone can be bothered to read it. We don't sit down and say, "I'm going to make a super long post today." But after developing the thought, it takes paragraphs to fully say what we mean, as we aren't going to be lazy and just type "you suck" despite the fact that it always seems to get interpreted that way by the people that need to consider it most. If you aren't sure how that happens, just look back on your post and consider whether or not you intended your advice to take up that many words when you started.


I don't know about Aiwe, but my posting here is just classic avoidance behavoir. It's less mind numbing to waste time on this forum for awhile than to spend all my time doing homework.

Oh and happiness has an "i" Oh Corrector of Spelling Mistakes.

[Ruya]

I don't agree with you. Rats keep coming, Joseph the Smuggler is just one and if he's caught he's gone forever. There's a great difference which is consistency: it makes much more sense to have quests that are actually tasks than having quests that well... are nothing but ways of getting items and knowledge that can't be used in game. The 'accepted' nonsense is much greater when you ask someone to save the same princess a thousand times than when you ask someone to clean the batch of rats that showed up today at the tavern.
But hey, it's your choice. I can only make sense.

I agree with this in principle, but I don't know if the logical inconsistencies the quests cause are so crucial the system needs to be scrapped altogether.  I love to RP and (when I'm not kept away from the game waiting for my laptop to be repaired, as I am now  ) do it often, but there are also times when it's wonderfully relaxing to just run around doing the RPG thing.  I just pick and choose what quest experiences I'm going to intergrate into my character's personal history.    I don't think semi-regular events or a jobs board would work nearly as well.

[Catlemur]

 :offtopic:Catlemur gets killed by an offtopic tsunami.

[novacadian]

@Aiwendil and Illysia: ...
Though I'm just guessing your motives and experiences but I don't really know them, so I'll not speculate anymore. No wait...I'll speculate one more thing about you two:...

Geoni, your advise seems wise; however in the case of Illysia my speculation is different than yours somewhat. For whatever reason Illysia's gang of RPers left PS. She hung on; yet things were not the same without her old gang of cronies. It seems somewhat self evident that she depended on the old gang to instigate the RPs; as even though she bemoans the present state of RPs and has all kinds of ideas how to bring RP back to PS she does not; or can not; instigate RP herself or she would be out there doing it instead of spreading her bitterness on these forums.

Then there are the sad and lonely posts of her sitting in the Stonehead waiting for someone; anyone; to drop round for RP. This seemed to bring the bitterness to a boil. It is very odd that since new management has taken over Stonehead that they need only appear on the Buddies list for the place to fill a table to overflowing. They are not just there for a drink, chat or bar fight; but bring larger RP plots to those in attendance.

So one has to wonder if RP left PS or just Illysia. We will likely have a page or two of explaination from her after this post; yet watch carefully that no responsibility will be taken on her part.

My feeling is that rather than face the fact that she was the one that the present RPers left behind she blames the dev team, mechanics, present player base.... anything but herself. Why might they have left her our of their network of RPs? Would you want her talking to you in a channel in the same condescending manner which she posts on the forum? Go figure.

The style of RP she talks about can be done in a chat room; and even better under the PS software. So why isn't she doing it? My guess is she can't. My guess is she followed along the RPs of the past; depending on other more imaginative individuals who have now long gone.

Why have they gone? Perhaps modern hardware restrictions, present mechanics that do not make it so easy to stroke one's ego, dislike to the present direction of PS to a partner and two children?  Or perhaps all of the above. Nothing remains the same. Life moves on and, like you Geoni, my feeling is that so should Illysia.

Aiwendil, on the other hand, should hang on until his brain has been totally picked of all the wonderful contributions he makes on how to handle client configuration and so on. Then; if he still feels that there is nothing for him in PS; he, too, should take your advise.

- Nova

[Aiwendil]

Hehe...no need to worry. I only hang out here when I don't have access to my real computer and am bored with the old notebook that can't do much else than running a webbrowser. For sucking more contributions out of my head...I fear I have to disappoint you. The roleplaying guide is available in the OL forums, my patches are included for the next release of PS, here I posted everything that could be useful for the current PLer generation of players and Lilura for sure has more advisor points than me by now. I don't have anything else to offer...nor am willing to submit any more code.

And I have to admit that it's a pretty good way to just lower the standards on what RP is. Then it's easy to say there is enough. I never was a very good roleplayer but even I would never call anything happening in PS at the moment decent RP...but I guess it depends on the point of view. So enjoy all the great RP guilds like the Bounty hunters or Dark Warmongers give you. And I am sure the current visitors of the SH are good for some decent RP also. Good that I am not in game anymore or I would only get in an new argument with some GMs again about banning all those in general from the RCD.

Maybe it's time to suggest all those people telling other to use a chat client for RPing that they are in the wrong place in a role-playing game and better should go and play some quake or doom...fits them much better. In my view everybody telling people using the chat window in game that they should go and play on IRC hasn't understood the "role" in role-playing...and mistook it for a "roll"ing a die. But on the other hand...there were always the people who like BattleTech better than D'n'D....but at least those admitted that the game is only in a small part a RPG.

[Sangwa]

@Geoni: you're a fun guy. I like your style.

I'll clear two of your doubts now. The reason I stay is very simple. I'm having fun. I have fun playing in-game, because I've been surrounded with new and old players alike who do a great job at making things interesting and because I've finally began to use the system (quests, etc.) and I'm discovering its integration with my roleplay to be very fun.
I also have fun out here, in the forums. Because I love to disagree with people who think they know it all. It creates interesting, in my point of view, conversations and it allows me to improve my English and my rhetoric. Plus I feel useful as a breath of fresh air for the non-emo people who bother reading.

@Ruya: I do not think the system should be scrapped. That'd be too much effort and I'd have no better model to propose. I just think that quests should be revised, even if slowly, and then changed to fit a less disturbing format. The mechanics itself are good enough, the only thing which is causing some trouble is the content.

@Aiwendil: You're not playing the game, so how can you know of what is happening in PS at the moment?
I've been in some interesting roleplay, filled with consistent intrigue and interaction with other parties.
I've seen members of what I previously called dummy guilds (because they provided us only with characters that work like props) coming up with good attempts of roleplaying, things that can take time and are not in the "kill x, rape b" format. Sure there is the occasional godmodding here and there, but at least they're trying something, instead of soiling this forum with tears.
Every guild leader I've contacted has been more than in the right mood to establish relations, thus creating new material and I have failed to see one single player who isn't willing to have his character consistently take part of whatever there is to take part in. What we're actually missing is creative people, because very few take it upon themselves to create interesting opportunities.

[Aiwendil]

Then be glad the RP in PS meets your standards Sangwa...but by now it should be clear we have some very different views on what we see as good RP. For me the whole idea of the cooperative Plot Creating thing is already a sign of bad RP. And don't get me wrong...that's only my view. Not wanting to bash the project...it might be very good for the current PS players and help them a lot. Just the whole idea of looking for RP partners and planing plots outside of the game is just...not very tempting. So I better play other games with, in my view, better suited rules for a RP server.

And I think we all tried something...just most of us gave up at some point as there was no sense in trying anymore. And I really hope we all also shed some tears of laughing when reading these forums...

[Sangwa]

You're missing the point. You can't talk about current PS standards when you don't actually know it. It's that simple.

In PS you're pretty much reduced to your experience. Just because you haven't found the experience you were looking after, it doesn't mean other people didn't. So, it's better not to assume you've played with every player out there.

And you miss the point of the Cooperative Plot Creation. You're not meant to roleplay outside PS with it. It's not my fault the website planner likes D&D. You're meant to play inside. The objective is facilitating the creation of material (plots) to use in-game, through communication between players. It's exactly to fix the main thing that's lacking: player input.

In fact, many players blame the GMs and Developers for lack of roleplay, but nowadays it's mostly the players' fault. That and the lack of a general plot, but that's to be discussed some other day.
Instead of coming up with consistent stuff (like I mean for people to come up through the cooperative plot creation) people come up with dumb stuff, like asking for new NPCs and quests. That's not how you run a plot in a MMORPG. Imagine if everyone asks GMs for this and that, and the other thing. It'd be easier to make everyone a Game Master.