A wedding and a lot of funerals - almost...

[Mekora]

And incidentally... Kisoji killed Mordas, and was later killed by Caraick.   

Oi, Caraick would have to ruin the fun.  j/k

[Caraick]

* Caraick arches a brow slowly to his brother...

[Aramara Meibi]

I wasn't there, and I speak with trepidation on the subject, but here are my observations.

In the real world, there ARE such things as massacres and senseless killings. It probably happens much more often than many of us would like to admit. So why is it so wrong for such an event occur in our little microcosm?

Then again, in such a world with a massive reset button as the DR, what's the big deal? I'm sure a good 80% of those killed were in some form DW practitioners and frequented the DR all in the name of training anyways. What's one more trip at the hands of a madman or two?

ICly, the attackers should be treated as we treat terrorists, for that is exactly what their actions would be seen as in the real world. Why did you kill them? That only allows them to escape. They should have been captured and shot into the crystal.

It would be nice, if only for the sake of storytelling, for the attackers to provide their IC reasoning, was it something personal against the bride and groom or perhaps one of their guests? or was it merely evil and chaos for the pure sake of evil and chaos? To only do it for OOC reasons, like just to spark a guild war which would only be treated as a giant duel pissing contest, then it is just lazy gameplay. Creative use of mechanics to get the job done though, kudos for that.

[Elady]

Actually so the record is correct it was Heolion who killed Mordas
(16:45:32) >Mordas Warslayers has been killed by Heolion Krugher!
(16:46:03) Kisoji says: I wasn't done with him.

[jenideandre]

Couple things:  First, Ara, would you give kudos if a creative use of mechanics had stripped your guildhouse clean?  Or done something that you personally felt insulted by (I realize that a wedding massacre is fine with you, just asking you to use your imagination and find a situation where a creative use of mechanics would upset you, then you may understand Roled's postion, or mine or anyone who found the incident ridiculous).

Second, I have argued the other side of this fence before, that in this land everything (almost) can happen, and so you have to learn to roll with unexpected acts/actions, and your ability to do that easily is a mark of a very strong immersive ability.  But I've noticed that many rps don't desire this kind of disruption and furthermore cannot withstand it.

Example:  I was on an alt at the Bronze Doors fortress.  Doing quests which were taking ages.  During this time, a group of people were out on the eagle head.  The group was Caraick, Mariana, Teshia, Marsu.  It became clear to me later from reading Car's story in the forum, that this was Marsu's swan song.

At the time I just noticed that they were taking ages out there, that the big Diaboli Marsu was moving closer to the edge of the eagle, and that there were tears and pleas and lots of drama.  Fine.  I always jump off the eagle head to come home to Hydlaa.  I "hurried past the small group looking severely agitated" and threw myself off the edge. 

I ended up stuck in the waterfall, unstuck myself and was back up near them, and they were reacting to my intrusion (I believe Car/Marsu ignored it).  My point here is WHAT IF I had been able to make creative use of mechanics to kill Marsu as I leapt, to push him off, or to kill Mariana/Tesh/Car so that he had no spectators.  I realize that these players probably wouldn't have fallen for any mechanics abuse that I could have offerred, but let's say they were more newbish and they did.  I promise you that there would have been strong feelings against me for such an act, precisely because that rp had a clear purpose, to end Car's evil char in a good and yet nebulous way, and to bring some resolution to other rps touching on Marsu (Mariana and that fellow she loved, Er-someone).

Even if my acts were ig legal, it makes total sense that the rp group would be pissed with me and wouldn't play with me ever again.  Because that kind of action (regardless of my intent, of my char's background, of my guild who is plotting a takeover and subjugation of the whole realm and killing this group just the beginning of our scheme) can ruin rps.  Yes, Marsu could have come back from the dead, run back up to the fortress, posed at the edge again all drama, Teshia could start weeping again Car holding hands being the rock etc. etc. etc. BUT it pops you out of the experience and the game.

My whole point really is - try to put yourself in the other person's shoes, try to think of a rp that YOU would be upset about were it to be turned from a serene ceremony to a bloodbath and then moderate your own comments here.

Good things that came out of this:  Group mechanics won't be abused in the same way.  And people know who to rp with and who not to rp with.  For those who think this was a clever rp and perfectly acceptable, have at it.  For those who thought it was pretty stupid (lol, that's me), then ignore those critters (the stillwater peace corps).  I have to admit, even though I think it's darling that Solo is going around killing all of them, that them sitting at the plat mine and taunting people to come near it, is infantile to the nth degree (n->infinity) and cracks me up.  It is so stupid that I really like it.

Sorry for the tome  Hushing.

[Gilrond]

I consider this incident rather stupid, and it looks like it was done for OOC "fun", rather than for any IC reason or plot.

[Caraick]

Example:  I was on an alt at the Bronze Doors fortress.  Doing quests which were taking ages.  During this time, a group of people were out on the eagle head.  The group was Caraick, Mariana, Teshia, Marsu.  It became clear to me later from reading Car's story in the forum, that this was Marsu's swan song.

At the time I just noticed that they were taking ages out there, that the big Diaboli Marsu was moving closer to the edge of the eagle, and that there were tears and pleas and lots of drama.  Fine.  I always jump off the eagle head to come home to Hydlaa.  I "hurried past the small group looking severely agitated" and threw myself off the edge. 

I ended up stuck in the waterfall, unstuck myself and was back up near them, and they were reacting to my intrusion (I believe Car/Marsu ignored it).  My point here is WHAT IF I had been able to make creative use of mechanics to kill Marsu as I leapt, to push him off, or to kill Mariana/Tesh/Car so that he had no spectators.  I realize that these players probably wouldn't have fallen for any mechanics abuse that I could have offerred, but let's say they were more newbish and they did.  I promise you that there would have been strong feelings against me for such an act, precisely because that rp had a clear purpose, to end Car's evil char in a good and yet nebulous way, and to bring some resolution to other rps touching on Marsu (Mariana and that fellow she loved, Er-someone).

Even if my acts were ig legal, it makes total sense that the rp group would be pissed with me and wouldn't play with me ever again.  Because that kind of action (regardless of my intent, of my char's background, of my guild who is plotting a takeover and subjugation of the whole realm and killing this group just the beginning of our scheme) can ruin rps.  Yes, Marsu could have come back from the dead, run back up to the fortress, posed at the edge again all drama, Teshia could start weeping again Car holding hands being the rock etc. etc. etc. BUT it pops you out of the experience and the game.

So thaaaaat was the random suicide Menki... I must confess: That was one of the funniest things I have ever seen, given the context.  Collectively, the three of us on the Eagle had to pause the role-play for a moment to finish laughing.   

I know it's simply your example, but thank you for showing that courtesy. Thank you also for your contribution to the discussion, I find it well thought-out, and insightful. The community would do well to consider it.

 At present, I'm going to refrain from contributing my point of view, as there's just no need to add further ingredients to the mix.  I think there are sound arguments against what was done following the wedding, and all have merit to them.  However, let it not be said that there was not an element of role-play involved in the scenario.  While I may have slight personal objections to the manner in which the attack was carried out, utilizing OOC group challenging mechanics, it's still very true and typical of the personality and manner of the two villains.  Having played several villains, with varying success, there cannot be enough said about the difficulty associated with playing a villain, having to deal with the countless PL-ed goodies out there.  In that light, I can sympathize with the motives behind the villains' actions. 


It is impossible to understate the value of communication amongst players. Succinct, reasonable, and relevant communication would have turned this incident into a fabulous role-play.

[Tessra]

Now for the marriage thing I would have expected better from all the ones involved. Seriously teshia how could you not inform roled when you were his supposed going to be married person ic?

I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about here, Weltall.  I did NOT know in advance what was going to happen.  Roled was the one given the advance notice.  I simply played along with it.  I slightly resent the fact that I'm being attacked/blamed for something when all I did was NOT complain against the attack after the fact.  I did not and do not have an issue with what was done. 
Was it a senseless attack, yes. 
Was it a valid attack, also yes. 
Do I care that my character was killed, nope. 
Do I care that my other character's wedding was interrupted, nope. 
Did it ruin my fun for the RP, nope.
Do I care that Roled was upset by this, yes I damn sure do.  This is a game and at the end of the day it should be FUN.  If Roled wasn't having fun, then that is where I begin to take exception to what happened. 

Incidentally, Karenina, I found your suicide on the EBD head rather amusing, even if it did make Tesh go O.o at the time.  Had you interrupted the RP, I wouldn't have held some long grudge against you, and I trust Caraick and Mariana to also be competent enough RPers to simply go with the flow of the situation.  Tesh would have simply dived off after Marsuveus, because she's batty like that. 

One of the exhortations on the loading pages is to have characters be able to adapt and change based upon life events.  I try to play by that. 

Elady:  Thanks for the correction. 

[jenideandre]

Car, happy you guys laughed, I seriously thought the serendipitous encounter was hysterical...I tried to convince myself to jump down on the water wheel, walk on water to the edge of the waterfall and jump from there so as not to bother you (and that way is very beautiful to me also), but I said "no, I have to show this ol diaboli how it's done" and so hurried past....happy you took it in the right spirit...ah sometimes this game, it seriously makes me laugh.  Thanks for your kind thoughtful post, you even made me consider the incident in a different light (and only you did, because your post was generous and kind).

Anyway, and I miss Roled.  Roled, if you read this again then I want to tell you something.  Remember back in the day when Karenina was roaming about in her solitary way, and there was a rp involving that TOLIAN creature???  My gawd that fellow made me laugh, and also get hot under the collar..anyway, so he and I had some issues let's say, and he rp'd an old crone who lived in a tent in Camp Banished, and one day I chopped her head off.  Not a pk thing, I swear, but it was affected by my ooc feelings that this guy was a pain - he had tried to group with me numerous times when he was recruiting people and I would tell the people nearby "he sounds a right fraud, listen not to him, guard your pockets!" and then he would ask me to group with him so he could school me on how to play the game and how to rp, very very condescending and also irritating.  And the hysterical thing is that he got banned for cheating, that creep, the GMs found him with 20 million tria in his sack without a skill to his name, exploiting a bug that doubled your tria. 

Anyway, that darling instance of karma biting him in the butt notwithstanding, there came a new rp one day (we were going to uncurse Dragonis, I was a bodyguard of sorts, ~12 of us grouped), and Roled there you were and all of us were gathered round the crone.  The crone said she would not open her mouth at all if that NOLTHRIR was around (that was me).  And you sent me the sweetest tell, just to say that the rp couldn't continue because Tolian had a problem with me being there.  But the way you said it...was so sweet, and I couldn't take offense if I tried, and I wanted the rp to go forward, so I stowed my blades and gave a look indicated I could be called back to protect, and walked away.  The rp went on as planned.  The way that it was handled was just...incredible.

Roled, you were one of my favorites.  I really hope school is going well.  And I hope you know that some people have super sweet memories of you and that you helped make Yliakum a great place.  Nevermind the current climate, which is becoming funnier and funnier to me.  There is space for all types of rp, all types of chars, all types of players.  Take care of yourself in the real world, and in honor of your nine million smileys...

[LigH]

I would expect Roled to return during the year 2012, maybe even already in christmas vacations... he is just very busy now with his education.

[Aiwendil]

Tolian Tyndale? Interesting you bring him up here. No real clue what this thread is about but from a short glance it looks a lot like a "Donari" plot.

Donari once was a respected Roleplayer, member of the Dark Empire, organizer of several markets, former member of the settings team (I guess the quests he wrote are still in game) and took part in some GM events (Doubt anyone remembers it, but he was "No hurty" for example....grr..one could say because of him I go a "Mary-Sue-Slap" from Dajoji ). But like a lot others it appears Donari got pretty pissed by the state of PS (I think the state according to RP in game...but who knows?). Now everyone has a different way to deal with this. Some people voice their frustration in the forums, some leave quietly...and some mess up RP in game to show how flawed it is. And this is were things went very wrong in my view. No question that Donari was a great Roleplayer. But it enabled him to come up with perfectly IC plots that only should annoy others. In fact the char Donari Tyndale was the IC owner of the Guildhouse of the Royal House of Purrty. If I remember right the Dark Empire lend the Royal House the money to buy the Guildhouse they had RPed to own for several years already back then (That's by the way the only RP flaw I can find in the later Donari plot...In my view the lending of money was OOC as it shouldn't have been necessary ICly. The house already belonged to RHoP...doesn't matter in my view that the PS team just ignored all RP on the server so far just to push their new mechanics through). So...should these facts enable the player with the Masterkey to the guildhouse to RP his char going mad and selling that house? The only objection I had there I already stated above as the plot was not completely IC...but beside that I would answer with a yes here. And now comes the big but...should it allow the player to sell the house as it was done? And sorry...no way that I can agree to that. No player of the RHoP was informed OOCly before this. Donari even waited until none of them were online anymore to start his "auction". The auction wasn't his first idea to mess up. Half an hour before he started that auction Orgonwukh and I got tells from him if we (the Outlaws) wanted to rob the Royal house (Which we declined...but now afterwards I have to say we acted pretty stupid there. It should have been clear from this tell something is going to happen but we just didn't think about what that offer means enough). What then happened is ancient PS history. Donari announce the house to be auctioned, unlocked the doors for everyone to have a look at it, a few minutes later all the furniture, items and books (what is the real shame...a lot RP books were lost forever in that incident) were stolen by the "interested buyers". The issue was raised in IRC so GMs learned of it. Donari's account was quickly banned (by the GM rule allowing GMs to ban accounts at once if there are hints the account might be hacked/stolen). Later on it was decided to keep that ban and extend it to 6 months (I think). Next day Lolitra logged in a empty guildhouse and was completely clueless what happened.

Because of this the Outlaws afterwards were advised to always send OOC tells to "victims" to get their OOC permission. And it was a rule to make always sure that every party involved in a RP has fun. Before this nobody would have even thought to make a rule like this as it was fundamental and nobody thought it's necessary to say it explicitly.

Why I say this? Mainly because "But it's perfectly IC and valid RP" doesn't make it something that should be done. The main problem here is that laanx is NO RP server. There are all kinds of players online. You just can't say that a perfectly IC story will not annoy some players. And even if it were a pure RP server there will be always new players who might be still learning. But on a pure RP server it is easy to solve...just request that players have to approve an RP plot with vast influence on their own char. As the approval is OOC and doesn't need to go into detail I neither see it spoiling the fun nor as OOC planing of RPs. And as roleplayers should be able to make a clear difference between IC and OOC it also won't have any influence on the way they play their chars. But this doesn't work for PlaneShift with it's playerbase. So in the end you are only left to decide by case...meaning decide how you go about a plot (RP or none-RP) by the players that are involved. And here it seems there was made a major mistake in this plot...as Roled obviously is upset. So it doesn't matter if this was RP or not...it is clear a mistake was made as other players should never be upset afterwards.

And some last words about misusing events of others for self-portrayal. I seriously would have freaked out if someone stepped in the Den during any of the events there to start a fight whiteout talking about it OOCly before...no matter if it had a RP background or not. Events tend to be a lot of work for the organizers. In case of the RCD events they were also a lot work for the artists. I bet Orgonwukh spend several days on writing his theater play, Lace for sure also spend a lot of time on his songs and I know that it took us almost three weeks of writing, spell- and grammerchecking, rewriting, improving and adjusting the text to the models to get the descriptions of the clothes for the fashion parade. And now someone wants to make use of the crowd gathered by an event he didn't organize and prevent the involved people to present their hard work just to give a display of his own (RP, PVP...whatever)  skills? Sorry...if you want something like this I see only two choices for you. Either you organize an event on your own to get enough people to fulfill your self-display desires or you contact the organizers of the event several days in advance so that they can talk about your suggestion, decide if they want to allow it and then come up with a plan that allows your intervention without disturbing people showing the work they did for this event. But in the second case you have to accept that some might reject your idea...and that you are not in complete control about when and how you act. I think what I just said applies for a wedding as well as for any RCD event we did...The ceremony of the wedding was probably prepared in advance, the vows written...hell maybe even some "rehearsal" was done. Telling them a few minutes before you act that you will destroy their hard work in an instant isn't enough in my view.

Edit: typos

[Roled]

Thanks, Aiwendil,
You stated my problem with the disruption at the wedding much more eloquently than I could. Thanks for your comments. 

For now, RR is "away"- I have come ig but not so much to rp as to feed my addiction. RR will of course rp when he runs into someone IC- it was nice to see Resildren and Phaat last night for example.  But I'm trying to keep him away from towns for the next while, because 1) I don't really have time and shouldn't be playing (or responding in forum!  right now) and 2) ICly, RR and Lattia are staying away, and RR is only coming into populated areas when they need supplies.

Thanks, 
RR