Hydlaa Trading Post

[Zazhia]

@Zazhia: We have less than 100 people online. I don't like contrived RP either but we simply don't have enough people for regular casual encounters. Every time my character randomly greets another character that the character dosen't know the character, and likely the player too, is confused. That means people are not even in the habit of casual encounter RP. Get more people first, then we can pick and choose.

I generally get good responses when approaching people and greeting them. We must meet different people :-)

[Illysia]

Very. I practically threw each person that actually stopped for a loop. Might also be a matter of timing. Europeans always have been kicking American's tails when it comes to RP in this game. XD I usually get much better response during European evening.

[Theorex]

Before banking was established people tended towards using alts as bankers, the only change in that respect is, it's become easier and more IC. But forgetting that point, as it's not really the message you're trying to bring across here...

I have tried to RP abilities and owning items that my character doesn't have, and people aren't generally impressed with it. I agree with you, roleplay is much better without these mechanical constraints, unfortunately ignoring the mechanics in place raises two issues that I can think of.

Firstly, mechanics help dissolve the issue of godmodding, without them, it's hard to determine what is godmodding and what isn't; while mature players will happily play fairly, there are many players who want to be the hero all the time, and mechanics are one way of resolving that problem. To further this point, players who do use the mechanics to prove their characters worth will feel cheated by players who roleplay their worth only. This is an extreme way of saying, if you trade something you don't have, there's a good chance someone will be annoyed by it, even if they're just a witness to the trade.

Secondly, when you ignore or bypass constraints, you are opening up the possibility for immersion instability, for example, when you come to invent something new, which people are bound to do, it might become common knowledge but conflicts with something already in place about the planeshift world. e.g. a ynnwn's platinum bow, for those who don't know ynnwns have allergies to platinum, there is nothing wrong with this, so a small circle of roleplay is created that is simply wrong, and will break the immersion for more knowledgeable players. New inventions are not the only cause in this respect.

I believe these are two reason why constraints are made in the first place, so, even if we were to roleplay more without the strict use of constraints, unless we address these issues a different way, planeshift's community will just go a full circle.

So, how would you address these?

[Illysia]

For the tl;dr people:

• Mechanics can't do the work players have to do themsleves.
• Be mature and when other people aren't being mature, BE MATURE.
• Don't make the problem worse.
• Your immersion will be broken eventually, no matter what. Learn to ease the effect.

The only real solution is for the community to come together to work on case by case solutions and common ground. There is no shortcut, mechanics or otherwise.




_____________
While you are absolutely right on several points Theorex, let me point out a few things before I get into how to deal with those issues.  And remember around the third paragraph or so, when you are sick of reading this , that proper explanations require full thoughts not just snippets. I'll try to shorten the thoughts where I can without loosing the meaning.




One, there simply aren't enough people for this to be a significant problem. I remember the godmodding, the trouble and the fussing, but now I don't really see it. Why? Because there aren't even enough people roleplaying at the same time to cause as much conflict. I'd like to say people got reasonable all at once but that's just not that likely. Rather than stiffle RP because we might run into these issues again, at this current time, let's get started on expanding the RP and then we can worry about the problems that actually do arise.

Two, when I talk about RP and mechanics, I'm not advocating completely ignoring it. What I am advocating is not getting so tied to it that you can't RP anything until the devs implement it. Mechanics are incomplete, they break, they get cumbersome, they change... One way or another they will require you to make judgement calls anyway, so I'm asking people to be less dependent on them. Not ignore them per se.



Ok, now into the actual issues. I have already traded things that didn't actually exist and it went fine. The problem there is not the way of trading it is the level of consideration the player shows to the other party. Since I gave "nothing", I took "nothing". Even though the amount of tria for my items were well below OOC market value, I still made it a point to try to be fair to the other player. I RPed the exchange of tria without taking any actual tria from them. All parties were satisfied and some even gave tria anyway because they in turn were trying to be considerate.

It is a matter of exercising a little sense. Someone that can't manage that much is just as likely to try to cheat you with an item that has a model and icon. Always consider how much you personally would be willing to give up in exchange when trading.

Also, I guarantee you that mechanics or not, someone somewhere will always be offended by your actions. You can only do so much to prevent offense before you become unable to do anything. In a case like that, you should put yourself in the other person's place and think about what considerations you would want. You should actively work to come to an equitable arrangement with the other party. Beyond that there really isn't much else you can do.

For those unwilling to work with the other party to come to a fair result, forget them. No one is a mind reader and no one is the star of the show. Anyone that can't give a little to get a little is probably just going to cause trouble no matter what.


Godmodding___

Now, about godmodding. There are often complaints about it, but let's be honest, it hasn't been a large issue since the player count dropped. Most of the power fantasy fiends have moved on and most of the people left are reasonable enough. Rather than assume everyone is going to go power mad, start RPing and deal with godmodding if it comes up. I haven't had a problem with it for years. Even at the height of my belly aching it was rarely about outright godmodding.

NOTE: NONE OF THE FOLLOWING IS PERSONAL OR SPECIFIC TO ANY ONE PERSON OR GROUP. IT IS NOT AN ATTACK OR MEANT TO INSULT. IT IS A GENERAL COMMENTARY ON HOW TO DEAL WITH THESE PROBLEMS.

Some ways to deal with the godmodding issue:
One, understand that godmodding actually happens often, in a sense, and no one cares. When someone grabs your shoulder without "trying" to, you have been godmodded, but in most cases it is a welcome way to get on with things. There is much complaint about godmodding, but it's isn't quite as evil as people generally portray it. The two actual problem areas are combat and your character's well being, so lets narrow the field down to that.

Oh, and just as a note, the following commentary does not relate to the mechanics, just to player action and reaction. It has been proven that players taking stupid, inconsiderate, or obnoxious actions cannot be stopped by mechanics. It will always be up to the community of players to manage these kind of things among themselves or at worst GM intervention(the closest thing to a sufficient mechanics response)...

When you are dealing with RP issues related to combat or whether or not another character can get hurt or killed, TAKE EXTRA CARE TO BE CONSIDERATE AND TO COMMUNICATE. Did I emphasize that enough? Let me say that again. When you are dealing with combat or the well being of another character tip lightly. Since characters are usually close to people's heart, it doesn't take much to cause offense, hurt feelings, or unnecessary drama. Learn to work with the other person or no amount of mechanics is going to fix the mess that is just waiting to be made.

On the other side of the issue, if you are being  godmodded, DO NOT MAKE THE MATTER WORSE. Once more... DO NOT ADD TO THE PROBLEM. There are ways to deal with that issue that won't make it blow up into a grand firestorm.

The key here is maturity on the player's part, whether the other person is mature or not. Remember that no one is a mind reader and that everyone can forget to think about how their actions will be interpeted. There is a chance that the other person did not godmod intentionally or they just didn't think they were godmodding.

When someone godmods you, the first thing to do is to calmly and politely make it clear that you feel godmodded and that you don't want to go along with the action. You don't have to go along with things if you don't want to; this came up with that string of rape RPs awhile back. But, do consider why the other person might have wanted to take that action. It might not be as much of a godmod as you think.

Further, feeling godmodded is not a good reason to go into a rage or a whine. It can easily cause the other player to feel attacked, offended, or at least make them get defensive. That will most likely lead to them sending an angry salvo back, and cause the whole thing to escalate needlessly. Feeling justified is not automatically the go ahead to act out, but the first one to do it opens the door and then there will be several parties all feeling justified in insulting, harrassing, etc. the other party. It just becomes a mess, nothing good will come of it.

BE CALM when you respond. Try to clearly state what you have an issue with without accusing people of all sorts of extra things that you assume was a part of the incident, like being unfair, meaning disrespect, trying to be a pain, being a bad RPer, etc. ... Keep it to what actually happened, it will go better for everyone. If you try to work it out with a reasonable level of maturity it is more likely that you can come to an equitable solution.

Now, if the other person is for sure being  an absolute jerk DO NOT RESPOND THE SAME WAY. It makes the problem bigger, you then share responbility for the trouble that will follow, and nothing is solved. You can /ignore that person; you can just stop the RP altogether, sacrificing some immersion is better than fanning the flames; you can /report them; or you can make a petition. Just remember: don't feed the troll.

Lastly, if for some reason doing these things to try to manage godmodding breaks your immersion and it is too much, then you might want to consider being an author instead of an RPer in an MMO. Having so many people possibly interacting with each other will make it frequently necessary to come to OOC arrangements, and there is really isn't a  way around that that doesn't  lead to drama at some point.

Immersion Instability____

Simply put, at any point this game could change and the settings and the mechanics to match could change or disappear. Ask the diaboli and the players that played them. You have to be ready at any moment to have to rewrite or rework some aspect of your RP anyway, so you shouldn't let the fact that you might get it wrong or that what you do might become wrong scare you out of RPing new things or RPing with others who might have a slightly different view...

If you RP long enough in this game, your immersion will get broken eventually, it comes with the package. The best thing to do there is to be flexible and learn how to make efforts to reconcile the break with any other involved parties.

For instance, someone comes up to you and they are a Ynnwn/Enki hybrid... break! Now you could get in a funk about it, you could refuse to RP ever again with that person, or you can do something constructive about it. Can your character ICly comment on how that breaks the settings? Can you send a polite tell explaining that a character of that nature is against settings? If people genuinely don't know any better, then someone needs to help them learn. If someone is deliberately being a pest and childishly wants to force everyone to play along then just don't indulge it.

This is another case of "be mature even if the other person is not". You can refuse to deal with the break by ignoring it, you can stop RPing with the person until they decide to be reasonable, Or  you can make use of reports, petitions, and ignore if the break can be interpreted as harrassment.

_______________



I think this covers the basics; but, overall, when you play this game you have to accept that there is no way to completely police it, to prevent issues, or to always be completely comfortable in it. It's open to the world and that means anything can happen. All you can control is your own actions, but that is at least be enough to prevent large scale blow ups.

[Zalya]

Rolls also work rather nicely to add a randomness factor, and can help prevent god-modding. Or course nothing beats a collected mature response.

Also, Illy is the queen of long posts.

[Illysia]

Also, Illy is the queen of long posts.

*adjusts her crown*
I stole it from another oldbie.

However, I would love to do shorter posts, but a lot of things apparently need to be explicitly stated. When I know that everyone will understand without paragraphs of texts or already knows to do certain things, I don't write paragraphs...

 ^
 |
Case in point.

[LigH]

* LigH is trying to be the king of "efficient" posts...

Partially I understand your goal. Even if I need to prepare something out-of-caracter, I always try to ask (also) in-character for it, like recently for a new enchanted chainmail armor. Still don't have one. Still don't know a price. Not only because the required specialists were not in game at the same times. But also due to annoying "reasons" like "too busy with crafting, not interested in IC chats, just say what you need".

New ideas and suggestions are welcome. But not everyone seems to be waiting eagerly for any possible chance. Some ideas may have to become a habit before they get accepted. The player base appears to have a certain inertia...

[Taya]

Ok... let me stop and make this side statement: I really don't care that much about East Hydlaa... I really don't. Just do something! Do it at harn's... fine!

I intend to explain why I say East Hydlaa but really people, I didn't make the place. I'm not hooked at the hip to it, It's just where I'll be.

I only responded regarding East Hydlaa because you seemed so focused on it. I've already quite explicitly stated that everything else you are saying I agree with. I do lots of somethings (currently not so many visible ones due to issues I won't go into). I will be continuing with those somethings and trying to get others to do the same just like I always have.

OK, here we go again, just said it's not personal, not to you or anyone else. I made no such implication. I'm trying to get more people on board. MORE. I never said it didn't happen, but look around, it's not enough. It would help dialogue and efforts to rally people greatly if people weren't so quick to turn a suggestion into condemnation of someone's efforts. Most people have lives aside from looking for people to insult in game. I especially can't be bothered to go around discounting people.

I'd still say it's not enough because of the low number of players. A couple of nights ago I spent about two hours on an alt having him randomly talk at people, do things in front of people, all sorts of little things that an RPer could use to get involved. I tried gossip too. Nothing. No result. One person (likely a new player) stopped and asked what my weapon was. After I answered he ran off, showing no real interest in anything else, though at least that short encounter managed to feel IC. One issue was simply how hard it was to find anyone to RP at. If there had been more people there'd have been a much much bigger chance of getting someone to respond. Eventually I poked someone outside the game who did come and join in, and then we had an RP that was at least viewed by three or four other people, even if for all intents and purposes they continued to completely ignore it. But really, we need more players. And this is a thing I don't really see much at all being done about. My own hope is that once the tutorial gets worked on more, more will at least make it through that and into the game.

[Illysia]

I will be continuing with those somethings and trying to get others to do the same just like I always have.

Good. That's all I ask of the people still doing things.

I'd still say it's not enough because of the low number of players. A couple of nights ago I spent about two hours on an alt having him randomly talk at people, do things in front of people, all sorts of little things that an RPer could use to get involved. I tried gossip too. Nothing. No result. One person (likely a new player) stopped and asked what my weapon was. After I answered he ran off, showing no real interest in anything else, though at least that short encounter managed to feel IC. One issue was simply how hard it was to find anyone to RP at. If there had been more people there'd have been a much much bigger chance of getting someone to respond. Eventually I poked someone outside the game who did come and join in, and then we had an RP that was at least viewed by three or four other people, even if for all intents and purposes they continued to completely ignore it. But really, we need more players. And this is a thing I don't really see much at all being done about. My own hope is that once the tutorial gets worked on more, more will at least make it through that and into the game.

The playerbase is not going to just grow. All the advertising in the world will mean nothing if the game doesn't look interesting when new players get in. People have been trying for years to get the amount of people trying the game to rise. It hasn't helped much because the new people quickly get bored and leave. Nevermind, the residual ill will floating around connected to the game. All sitting around waiting for people to come has lead to is a playerbase sitting around. The current playerbase just needs to step up now.

It only takes 2 people to roleplay, not 2 hundred. The larger problem is that too many people quickly get in the habit of only RPing with the same people and thus don't RP with whoever is around. That's why you can stand there trying to catch people and get ignored. The only way to fix that is to keep trying to expand out and drag people into RPs. People used to learn by example. With fewer RPers around, those that can be an example have to try harder or things will never turn around.

Also, this game started from a small player base and grew to upwards of 200 peak online. The size is not the hindering factor of the current community, it's the mindset. If players in the past could grow the game from a small playerbase, then players now should be just as capable. Like I've said earlier. Dev/GM/Player events always seem to not only pull people out of thin air but also seem to keep them around. The people are already there, waiting. They are simply too bored to hang around during the space between events.

The player base appears to have a certain inertia...

I think it is a matter of having lost momentum.

[Theorex]

Now, about godmodding. There are often complaints about it, but let's be honest, it hasn't been a large issue since the player count dropped. Most of the power fantasy fiends have moved on and most of the people left are reasonable enough. Rather than assume everyone is going to go power mad, start RPing and deal with godmodding if it comes up. I haven't had a problem with it for years. Even at the height of my belly aching it was rarely about outright godmodding.

It isn't really the power fantasy fiends that I have issue with, it's usually the every day roleplayer. As you mention further on, characters tend to be close to a player's heart, and whether they know it or not, they will often godmod in a seemingly subtle way to protect them. It wasn't long ago I tried to play a thief character. That didn't go so well, when it came to trying to pick someone's pocket (even for things non-existant, just for RP's sake), he would get caught every single time. He was publicly accused of thievery in hydlaa plaza. People complimented on his character in /tells, but I myself had a rotten time playing him.

Please note, I'm not against your post, quite the opposite, I think what you've written with regards to godmodding and immersion should be read by everyone. But I wanted make a point that players being protective of their characters is an attitude I would like to address, and get people mindful of. It's not that I want evil to rule half of the world, it's that currently, it isn't ruling any.

[Illysia]

I fully understand. But for instances like that I have to say that the current player base is not quite at a point where it can handle more complex characters, generally speaking. It's still got a lot of growing and a little growing up to do. People still don't always remember to uphold the IC/OOC boundary in all cases (like a mean character is not a mean player). Or they may forget to take turns (win a little loose a little). I've even found it hard to play quirkier characters since it seem that often people don't know how to interact with those characters.

In the past, what seemed to deter such behavior--notice I don't say stop--was that people who acted in such a way were either constantly corrected or outright shunned by a large majority of the community. It was this peer regulation that made it clear where certain boundaries were. Right now, there aren't enough RPers nor a strong enough sense of a community for that method to work... It's all up in the air and there seems to be much less common ground between RPers.

That being said, this is why I have been campaigning for years for work to start on the community level. Let the people that are around and can work together pull together. Form a core that the rest can build on. Eventually people will come, they will find a reason to stay, and they will in turn drag others along. But you can't wait for the people to come first.

So, people need to start reaching out to the other RPers, get to know their characters better and start forming rapports. Then you will be able to manage bigger and more engaging RPs and that will start changing the tides.

[Phantomboy86]

I fully understand. But for instances like that I have to say that the current player base is not quite at a point where it can handle more complex characters

Hah, you obviously haven't met me or really any of the people I hang around with. Course I'm only on about every other day and the others about every day.

Main point aside, flat characters are never interesting enough to hold most new people's attentions long enough to get them inescapably twisted into PS. If they just keep running into people with a single aspect to them (IE: A merchant who will only ever buy and sell things to/from you, with 0 ability to interact outside those parameters.) they will get bored and leave. Heck I lucked out my first day playing by spying on some crazy half-interrogation thing and getting caught then cornered as I had no idea how to navigate hydlaa.

[Illysia]

One dimensional characters are a whole different barrel of problems. But for now I think we need to get more people of any type around. Character development can happen over time but we need people hanging around long enough for that to happen.

[tman]

Hey.  This thread apparently stopped being about the market a long time ago.  Of course, more RP, expand the player base, etc. is all good stuff that should be worked on.

Going back to the point of this thread, I really like the idea of having a universally recognized "market district" or "great bazaar" type of thing going on in Hydlaa.  It makes sense, these things occur(ed) all over the place in real cities.  In my opinion it would be better than just sitting in front of Harny's because (1) it seems to fit better with the settings, and (2) a lot of people I meet at Harny's seem to be crafters/powerlevelers that don't really respond when you try talking to them (keep in mind I don't play often at peak hours).  The market district would be a recognized bartering RP area.  You could have it show up in the tips during loading screens, the NPCs could talk about it.  It could be common knowledge that if you're looking to buy something, you should check the market area.

Now, the problems.  The main issues seem to be not a lot of player traffic, and no storage.  Instead of ignoring the problems, what about looking for solutions?

1.  Move a storage NPC to the market area or make a new one.  If East Hydlaa is the shipping center for the city, you would think storage would be available.  As far as I know, Willam doesn't really have any ties to his current location (?) so what if he got moved to the market to make things easier?  Willam is already pretty close to Harnquist, it seems silly to have the two storage NPCs so close together.

2. Low player traffic.  This one is trickier but I think it's solvable.  Firstly, through loading screen tips, NPC dialogue, and player interactions, it could quickly become common knowledge that the market is the place to go to buy or sell.  If a storage NPC is moved to the area, it would increase traffic, especially from miners/hunters/gatherers on Oja road coming into the city to store things.  Lastly, you could move some of the NPCs that don't really have places to be, or some of the trade NPCs, into the market area to liven it up.  Or at least have them pass through for a bit each day.

[Illysia]

These are wonderful ideas tman! \o/

I was thinking that making a new storage NPC would be too much to ask but I like the idea of getting Willam moved. It would worth looking into his settings more to see how a move could be accommodated. I think he runs the bank so maybe set up a bank in East Hydlaa. Even nicer if you could set up a guildhouse bank that you could walk into. ICly it would help merchants needing to purchase from the caravans.

Also, suggesting new MOTDs about the market area is a great idea. I don't think that it takes a ton of effort to add new ones in. NPCs might have to wait till the KAs are worked out though. But maybe Worem could move through the area periodically offering to make change for anyone looking to perchase from the local merchants.