Author Topic: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread  (Read 196474 times)

Illysia

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #675 on: October 03, 2013, 06:34:47 am »
I mean in modern in the since that it gets used colloquially. Things we have technologically now that people think can't/didn't exist before now. It is a nebulous concept because it varies from person to person. But nailing it down past the person by person definition is irrelevant for my point.

Like you said, advancement is zig zag so we can't predict the path ancient peoples for sure had to progress down  without definitive proof one way or another. Which is why I say we can't just assume what they did and did not have. Also one thing I've learned from the fact that that they can make CDs out of corn, so they can degrade and not be around later btw, is that "space age tech" isn't the point. The important thing in terms of ancient advancement, and often modern advancement, is the understanding of the basic underpinings of say laws of physics or engineering.

And while you are right that people will see enough to rebuild right after a apocalyptic event, in the example you gave with Scruffy Ted it lends itself to much farther down the road context where those things won't help because the people existing are too far removed from the time when such things were understood. The point I was making there is if you are so far gone that even reading is lost, they are so far removed from the proper context that they might as well be reinventing from scratch.

I could show you some cool space gear but having an idea that it exists doesn't mean that figuring out how to duplicate it will be any faster than the process that made it in the first place. The baseline is the underlying knowledge, the key. History has shown that that can be gained and lost in wacky unpredictable patterns.

Rigwyn

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #676 on: October 03, 2013, 06:45:01 am »
So what are you going to be for Halloween this year?

Illysia

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #677 on: October 03, 2013, 06:48:48 am »
Not a thing. I will likely be sitting around trying to figure out how people get piece of food on their cat's heads. I do wonder that though. How do people get their cats to take that? I couldn't leave my cat's collar on his head like that.

Rigwyn

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #678 on: October 03, 2013, 06:50:10 am »
Sillicone glue, perhaps?

Illysia

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #679 on: October 03, 2013, 06:51:51 am »
Nah because the cat should still be twisting around like someone's yanking on it's spine if it were just glued on. Maybe that cat is stoned on catnip. In which case, they may be perfectly unaware of what is going on and/or in love with the world.

Volki

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #680 on: October 03, 2013, 07:58:15 am »
Whether they are competing or not I still think that more vital resources like medicine need to be clear of profit since chasing profit often causes trouble. That is why people get worried.

Too bad. I like having people not dead.

The Flynn affect article says clearly from 1930 onward. It has not even been studied a full century and it's long been debated whether IQ tests are even useful for actually testing intelligence.
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Recent research suggests that the Flynn effect may have ended in at least a few developed nations, possibly allowing national differences in IQ scores to diminish if the Flynn effect continues in nations with lower average national IQs.
This straight from the article would also suggest that it is neither continuous nor an inherent increase.

It was food for thought. I am never going to link you to "irrefutable" proof. That's nearly impossible. When I linked you this page, I was expecting you to think critically about it, not critique it. Think that intelligence flourishes in certain environments (which is an accepted theory). Environments like we have now, where we are not constantly worrying about our basic needs.

Also, I don't think you understood what you just quoted. It is basically saying that intelligence increases to a point, then levels off. If a developed country reaches its maximum intelligence, countries still in development will eventually catch up.

IQ tests do measure acquired knowledge...

They do not.

For instance, an 8th grader in the 1800s probably had a better grasp of English than your average college student now as English proficiency was a bigger deal then.

No.

Or for instance, in the 1700s I think, knowing geometry was a big deal and it is something the learned people and mathematicians held in high regard.

And here I'll explain why both of these statements are wrong. You are describing a small group of people. They were just beginning to explore education. It was nowhere near as rigorous and competitive as it is now. If you look back at the writings of the people from the 1800s, you will find spelling and grammatical errors everywhere. They did not adhere to a specific set of rules. Those rules didn't exist yet. Even some of the greatest men you know from history have writings filled with errors. Abraham Lincoln couldn't spell for ****, but nobody cares since he's Abraham Lincoln.

And as a side note, no evolution like you're thinking doesn't happen on the order of a thousand years. Dog breeds are specifically not examples of evolution. The difference in breeds are just phenotypic, that is appearance and behavioral. It makes them no different from each other or from wolves for that matter than differences in skin or eye color makes humans different. These are variations that were represented in the genes all along but certain traits were selectively breed to be more obvious. They are all still the same species and if you stop the selective breeding process, the differences will get lost as there is nothing to keep forcing them to stay distinct. Not to mention, I believe that the selective breeding process often creates dead ends due to over inbreeding and what not to force sets of traits to appear more prominently at the same time.

Sorry, but it is literally the definition of evolution. Even Charles Darwin thought that proving that all dogs came from one common ancestor was enough to back up his idea of evolution. And phenotype is a form of evolution. I don't know where you get the idea that evolution halts at "species". What do you even mean by "stop the selective breeding process"? The differences will be lost as this type of evolution is not natural. It is "artificial selection".

People are constantly shocked to learn that people were more advanced than we thought because they keep making the mistake of assuming we have the whole picture even after each new shocking discovery.

They're shocked because they haven't been paying attention. What I learned in school and in my own time, mostly reading mythologies and Greek history, led me to believe ancient people were very intelligent. In fact, one of my favorites was this short book on philosophers. (Probably because of the story with Pythagoras and the bean field.)

And even aside from what isn't unearthed, how many people do you think have paid this any attention even though it was unearthed?


Lace dark dreadfull power inside him awakens now fully resultin his former self comin back lord of dark noble house shantae of mevango family lacertus shadowone mevango also knowed as darkblade of shadows

Illysia

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #681 on: October 03, 2013, 08:08:38 am »
Since you were just complaining at me about long posts Volki, does that mean I should ignore your post now since long posts are bad?


However, one a different note. Want want want... :woot:

 

 

 

 

 

The second to last one is actually a bangle though even though I was googling rings. >.> But that does explain the 13k price. X-/
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 08:41:23 am by Illysia »

Volki

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #682 on: October 03, 2013, 10:48:05 am »
Illysia, I went through the trouble of finally replying to you. I have been writing and typing all day. My wrists are sore. If you can't come up with anything, I will assume that upon seeing my amazing post, you brushed up on all of the relevant subjects and, once you realized you were wrong on every count, decided to pretend none of this ever happened. I would be alright with that. However, I do suggest that you edit the conspiracies out of your previous posts if you want to maintain any semblance of logical reasoning. Right now, they stand as monuments to irrationality.
Lace dark dreadfull power inside him awakens now fully resultin his former self comin back lord of dark noble house shantae of mevango family lacertus shadowone mevango also knowed as darkblade of shadows

Suno_Regin

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #683 on: October 03, 2013, 01:40:01 pm »
I've been missing out on 46 pages of fun... granted, I only read the last few posts. Hm.

MishkaL1138

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"It's all fun and games until someone stabs someone else in the eye."

Illysia

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #685 on: October 03, 2013, 08:45:27 pm »
Ok, Volki I suppose I'll bite since you still think you know everything.

The for the Flynn affect to be relevant to the conversation where you brought it up it would have to be clear proof of increased intelligence over a large period and it doesn't even take a full reading of the article you proposed to see that there is some debate about that. Either way, the Flynn affect has only been studied since 1930. If you don't understand why generalizing something that recent over the course of thousands of years gets to stretching then I'm not going to bother.

Yes IQ test measure acquired knowledge, if you think people are born knowing certain words and how to do math on paper then you are still in no position to criticize anyone else's ability to work stuff out. I say still, because it doesn't change the state of that sentence whether you do or don't believe that.

Yes an eight grader in the 1800s had a better grasp. I didn't say the general populace so I'm not wrong you are arguing a irrelevant point, so debating with you is pointless as my point stands.

And no, evolution is not the change in hair color from one individual to another. It is the change in species over time as expressed gentically. Apparently, unlike you, I've had to study it specifically. You are wrong, Dogs are just selectively bred but without human intervention there is nothing to keep those breeds up because the change is superficial. You need to do some more research as I don't feel like trying to correct you on every wrong point when you just start talking without knowing what you are talking about.


I dislike you Mishka. >.> ...getting my hopes up and trollfacing me. :p
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 08:17:27 am by Illysia »

Volki

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #686 on: October 04, 2013, 01:33:42 am »
Ok, Volki I suppose I'll bite since you still think you know everything.

The reason I continue to learn is because I'm afraid I know too little.

The for the Flynn affect to be relevant to the conversation where you brought it up it would have to be clear proof of increased intelligence over a large period and it doesn't even take a full reading of the article you proposed to see that there is some debate about that. Either way, the Flynn affect has only been studied since 1930. If you don't understand why generalizing something that recent over the course of thousands of years gets to stretching then I'm not going to bother.

If you think that an effect that has been observed since the 1930s is not... I don't know... legitimate, then that must mean you don't trust half of the studies in existence. IQ tests were not around long before the Flynn effect was beginning to be observed. I should probably drop my criminology class since a running theme is "Statistics and reports have only been recorded since the 1950s, so the data must be read understanding that patterns may not continue in the same fashion." You can make some pretty good theories in the span of 60 years. We don't expect all of them to be true, but when one holds consistently no matter how many other variables there are, we can conclude that there's a good chance of correlation.

I am not saying there is proof, either. Proof is incredibly hard to come by. And if you were a true scientist, you would not be looking for proof anywhere but mathematics. Especially not in psychology or sociology. It is generally accepted by psychologists that intelligence may increase over time.

Yes IQ test measure acquired knowledge, if you think people are born knowing certain words and how to do math on paper then you are still in no position to criticize anyone else's ability to work stuff out.

IQ tests measure fluid and crystallized intelligence. Crystallized intelligence is misunderstood as acquired knowledge, but it's not exactly that. It's more the ability to retrieve knowledge and how much knowledge you have acquired, as I understand it. I have no idea what you mean by "born knowing" things. But if you believe that intelligence is acquired environmentally (like you should), then you can agree that it makes sense that future generations would be more intelligent than their ancestors.

Yes an eight grader in the 1800s had a better grasp.

Source?

And no, evolution is not the change in hair color from one individual to another. It is the change in species over time as expressed gentically. Apparently, unlike you, I've had to study it specifically. You are wrong, Dogs are just selectively bred but without human intervention there is nothing to keep those breeds up because the change is superficial. You need to do some more research as I don't feel like trying to correct you on every wrong point when you just start talking without knowing what you are talking about.

It sounds like whatever you were forced to study was completely wrong, or you simply did not understand it. A very lovely biologist who does not want to get involved in this debate gave me this link. Please read it.

http://scienceblogs.com/observations/2010/01/26/evolution-the-curious-case-of-dogs/

Edit:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/zoology/mammals/dog2.htm

She did not read the first article. Neither did I. (Well, we skimmed it.) The last one might be better. Just read both. :P
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 01:40:56 am by Volki »
Lace dark dreadfull power inside him awakens now fully resultin his former self comin back lord of dark noble house shantae of mevango family lacertus shadowone mevango also knowed as darkblade of shadows

Rirenil Masdo

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #687 on: October 04, 2013, 03:31:53 am »
so, my little story, which i figured once upon a time, 4 years ago, that would only take a few posts to wrap up endings for the characters i and a few others played in game, continues to grow as it gets fleshed out.  funny how that works.

at this point in the story, i'm at least getting back to events that actually occurred in game.  not that there's really anyone left around that still plays to maybe remember them happening first hand.  but hey, the way the tale is being told, i think that's actually more fitting.

anyways, there's my off topic random posting in this thread for the night.  enjoy debating civilizations.
"Jekkar really is Planeshift's very own Van Gogh - an iconoclastic rulebreaker, unheralded by his peers, who must await for history to recognise his talents at a later date." - Rinenud
"Jekkar is an old one-eared smelly elitist party-pooper jerkface."  - Neko K

Rigwyn

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #688 on: October 04, 2013, 05:43:54 am »

Illysia

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #689 on: October 04, 2013, 08:16:44 am »
Disclaimer: I'm unsympathetic. I guarantee you all I am far more sick of reading this post than you could ever be. I've read it and reread many many many times. :P But this needed to be addressed with details.






@Neko Rirenil: It will keep growing until you can never finish it. ;)

@Volki: I had some more to say about the rest of your post Volki, but I'll leave it at this: at least have the decency to not strawman what I said if you really insist on debating. I have no reason to debate your inventions on what I am saying and so far you are largely too focused on making up weird extrapolations to pay attention. Now, I'm going to focus on this dog thing for rest of the post and keep in mind that the length of this post is your fault. You started this.

Here's the rub with the dog breeds.  Lets start with the basics.

Introduction:

People who say it takes a long time never disputed the rise of diversity. They are pointing out that diversity is too small a step to quantify it as evolution. Yeah, they say it plays a role, but don't stretch the concept too far. No one is debating whether dog breeds show different traits, but they will never truly be anything but the same species for ever more unless there is enough change to the genes. That takes time without directly tinkering in the genetic code. If the set of genes contain alleles for light brown fur and black fur, you have done nothing special by selectively breeding for the black trait as you never eliminated the brown trait from the genes. The brown trait may not be often expressed, but it is still a part of the series meaning no net change. You haven't done terribly much more evolutionarily than someone that just dyes their dog pink with food dye. This is why breeds can still have members that have traits other than the desired ones you didn't  eliminate the other possibilities. Now here is one thing to consider on this topic, apparently some dog breeds have lost genes even though they are all still able to interbreed. Interbreeding is why they are considered one species, but there is an issue with how the dogs come to loose genes. I'll get to what's wrong with that loss and why it's not evolving dogs a little further down.

Let's work this through logically. Evolution is supposedly the process that lead to the rise of new species, and it is supposed to have done this by the passing on of useful genetic traits to the next generation which let them survive better than others of the species. Superficially selecting sets of preexisting traits without a sustainable genetic component goes against this model. Those dog breeds may not revert to wolves, but they can't pass on a self sustaining uniqueness; at best they still require deliberate human intervention. They and their descendants will always be the same species as wolves until you produce a large enough, again sustainable, change in genes which does not happen quickly without specifically tinkering in the genetic code. That is why scientists say evolution takes time. It's a heck of a lot more complex than selectively breeding in snoopy spots.

Now, that being said, this post took so long is because I decided to dig into dog genetics research--the things I do to make a point -_-  --and what that means for breeding as evolution and here's what I got. First, I found that people like to dance around and state things but do not like to quickly get into the important info at the heart of the issue unless you look at scientific papers. This is frustrating since that meant several searches were less than informative. But I got somewhere eventually.

The Research:

Let's start with some defintions for reference. You can double check your own sources if you like or skip if you already know this stuff:

Polymorph: when two or more clearly different phenotypes exist in the same population of a species — in other words, the occurrence of more than one form or morph.

Phenotype: the set of observable characteristics of an individual resulting from the interaction of its genotype with the environment.

Genotype: The entire set of genes in an organism.

Allele: An allele is an alternative form of a gene (one member of a pair) that is located at a specific position on a specific chromosome.

Genetic Bottleneck: In which the genetic variation within a population and the potential to adapt to a changing environment decrease.

Relaxation of selective constraint on dog mitochondrial DNA following domestication
Now you can find bits of specifics here and there, but  here is a paper that actually gets some of the more useful information in one spot. There is a lot of stuff related to methods that someone in that field would better understand, but here's what I got out of it:

Dogs are in fact polymorphs of each other and the breeding that went into creating specific breeds produced a lot of differences in genes in the breeds; however, it also caused lost genes producing genetic bottlenecks by things such as inbreding. Further, the majority of the current dog breeds were not the products of the long history of humans breeding dogs but rather they were developed in the 19th century. This means that most dog breeds are a far more recent occurance than I was previously thinking. now one thing that I wish I understood better about this paper is what they mean by wide difference in genes. Do they mean the individual genes are different from each other or are the genes they found just in occuring in a variety of different partterns. I suspect it is the later and I suspect that if you understand the methods part better that you'll know what they mean clearly. Oh well.

Quote
These findings may indicate that most breeds were somewhat homogeneous prior to being officially recognized by a breed registry. Indeed, breed clubs have to demonstrate a well-documented history and a well-described conformation standard prior to recognition of their breed by a registry. However, forces such as founder effects and bottlenecks (as a result of popular sires, severe changes in population sizes, and intense phenotypic selection) will continue to contribute to a decrease in genetic diversity after registry recognition.
Now I believe what they mean by homogeneous here is with reference to allele occurance. But here we get into why I think dogs were said to not be evidence of evolution. Yes humans have forced selection here, but it's not producing viable genetic pathways, but rather genetic bottlenecks. You are reducing genetic diversity. As I said earlier, the whole evolution bit relies on passing on useful adaptive traits, but the introduction of these bottlenecks work directly against that. It drops genetic diversity. These breeds may allow for artifical preservation of weak genes, and are still dependent on Humans to maintain breed purity. This makes a bad case for dog breeds as an example of evolution, not even artifically aided evolution.

Now this of course begs the question, "is this really an issue?" and like it, "How common are genetic disorders in dogs?" So let's explore that. Here's a paper:

Prevalence of inherited disorders among mixed-breed and purebred dogs: 27,254 cases 1995–2010)

Wow... now this was an interesting paper and not at all what I was expecting. There is a really nice, neat summary of relevant info at the beginning but I'm going to pull some more than that too. But here is the nice and pretty of it:

Quote
OBJECTIVE: To determine the proportion of mixed-breed and purebred dogs with common genetic disorders.

DESIGN: Case-control study.

ANIMALS: 27,254 dogs with an inherited disorder.

PROCEDURES:
Electronic medical records were reviewed for 24 genetic disorders: hemangiosarcoma, lymphoma, mast cell tumor, osteosarcoma, aortic stenosis, dilated cardiomyopathy, hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, mitral valve dysplasia, patent ductus arteriosus, ventricular septal defect, hyperadrenocorticism, hypoadrenocorticism, hypothyroidism, elbow dysplasia, hip dysplasia, intervertebral disk disease, patellar luxation, ruptured cranial cruciate ligament, atopy or allergic dermatitis, bloat, cataracts, epilepsy, lens luxation, and portosystemic shunt. For each disorder, healthy controls matched for age, body weight, and sex to each affected dog were identified.

RESULTS:
Genetic disorders differed in expression. No differences in expression of 13 genetic disorders were detected between purebred dogs and mixed-breed dogs (ie, hip dysplasia, hypo- and hyperadrenocorticism, cancers, lens luxation, and patellar luxation). Purebred dogs were more likely to have 10 genetic disorders, including dilated cardiomyopathy, elbow dysplasia, cataracts, and hypothyroidism. Mixed-breed dogs had a greater probability of ruptured cranial cruciate ligament.

CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE:
Prevalence of genetic disorders in both populations was related to the specific disorder. Recently derived breeds or those from similar lineages appeared to be more susceptible to certain disorders that affect all closely related purebred dogs, whereas disorders with equal prevalence in the 2 populations suggested that those disorders represented more ancient mutations that are widely spread through the dog population. Results provided insight on how breeding practices may reduce prevalence of a disorder.

OK, so the conclusion tells the some of the story. Some of the disorders are more prevalent in certain purebreeds and related breeds, and some were found equally between purebreeds and mutts. Apparently the occurance of the issues in either mixed or purebreds depended on the condition. But I do find the combined amount of genetic disorder between the two unfortunate. It was roughly 30% of the dogs in the study; there were a little over 90,000 dogs' records checked. Quick note, if you want to understand the limitations in deciphering the data you can go read the discussion section of the paper.

Quote
Dogs are second only to humans in the number of hereditary diseases identified in the population.
A quick googling says roughly 350 genetic disorder for dogs. :/ Apparently with great diversity comes great diversity of problems. I'd say that this starts to answer the question of is it really an issue, but I will concede here that I do not know the relative prevalence of genetic issues in the animal kingdom.

Quote
It is likely that with breed refinement for specific tasks and morphology, some mutations accompanied selection for those traits. Rigorous selection pressures to refine the breeds by inbreeding and bottlenecks would contribute to a loss of genetic diversity, thereby increasing the likelihood of recessive disorders within a breed population.
This section was talking about proposed reasons why purebreds might be seen as more prone to disease, but what I wanted to point out here is that it specifically references inbreeding and genetic bottlenecks. Now we all know that dog breeds can be inbred but this is a clearer statement that breeding practices also produce genetic bottlenecks which could lead to increased occurrence of recessive genetic issues. That means that it is more likely that mom and dad dog are likely to have the genes for a disorder that could be prevented in the pup if only one parent had the gene for it. There were two citations in this section as well, didn't follow those either for the record. But it's those genetic bottlenecks that are noteworthy in this issue of dogs as evidence of artificial selection.

Quote
Of the 24 disorders assessed, 13 had no significant difference in the mean proportion of purebred and mixed-breed dogs with the disorder when matched for age, sex, and body weight (Table 2).    ...
In contrast, 10 disorders were more prevalent in purebred dogs, compared with those found in mixed-breed dogs.  ...
This is just a more specific breakdown of the findings, but I do find it sad that in 13 disorders, essentially both kinds of dogs were susceptible. Now there are a few reasons why this could be, but the paper kept coming back to common ancestors carrying the trait and small breed gene pools due to low amount of individuals to breed. Now bear with me here, if you have few individuals that fit an ideal you want for a breed, and you try to create a whole breed from them, that presents a potential problem with a low gene pool. With that scenario, you are setting up for a problem right from the beginning.

Quote
Disorders may be associated with breed derivation or with breed bottlenecks. Such an example is the Irish Wolfhound, a breed with relatively few dogs registered annually. In the mid-1800s, the Irish Wolfhound underwent a population bottleneck so severe that the breed was thought to be extinct. The reduced effective population size suggests a relationship with the concomitant increased risk of dilated cardiomyopathy in Irish Wolfhounds. Indeed, as many as 1 in 3 Irish Wolfhounds may be affected with this disorder.
The disorders they are talking about in the first sentence are the ones associated with a purebreed. What this is saying is genetic bottleneck or a breed being related to a breed with this predisposition is likely the reason you can more or less expect this issue in that breed. Now if creating dog breeds is contributing decently to producing genetic bottlenecks, it's also increasing the risk of non useful or even outright harmful genes.

Conclusion:

Now let's just skip along to the point I want to make about dog breeding and evolution. Now if we take the definition of evolution I stated earlier: "passing on of useful genetic traits to the next generation which let them survive better than others of the species " not the colloquial definition of "its changed",  and we compare this to the information in the two papers, and please feel free to go through the papers and make a counterpoint here, then the rise of dog breeds doesn't count.

One, the process by which we selectively breed for traits to make current dog breeds is actually contributing to genetic bottlenecks which run counter to the supposed process of evolution. No not every dog is broken hipped and having heart attacks, but these genetic disorders often seem to be connected to traits that we have been selectively breeding for in various dogs. Even in the last paper they speculated that some of the disorders found in both mutts and purebreds could come from a common ancestor and,
Quote
Perhaps the same desired traits that made dogs a favorable species for domestication were linked to  alleles for hyperadrenocorticism, hypoadrenocorticism, cancers, hip dysplasia, lens luxation, and some cardiac disorders that were not found to be different between purebred and mixed-breed dogs.
Pointing to selective breeding possibly bringing along the genes for those disorders

Two, the genetics for the dog breeds we have seems to be questionably sustainable. Even if a dog breed is somewhat unique, it looks like the more you selectively breed for a trait the more risk you run of also trapping harmful genes in with the desirable trait due to things such as inbreeding, low population to begin with, and not checking the genetics of the starter dogs carefully enough. You accumulate enough harmful genes and you've shot that endeavor in the foot entirely.

Three, this process started with human intervention and it seems will require humans to stay on it to maintain it. Without humans to maintain pure breeds, dogs should just start to blend again. After all, for a dog, one mate is as good as another, so gains in isolating breed traits should start to fade without intervention. Breeding is also typically not done with trying to create an evolutionary pathway in mind, so more than likely breeding as we do it now shouldn't produce anything but more of the same species. Supposedly it's the environmental pressures that will shape that process of evolution, but we know that humans are artificially tampering with that environment. Humans skew the whole picking off less viable members by keeping dogs as pets, even some with severe genetic issues, and in some cases they breed dogs past a safe point in terms of producing genetically viable offspring.

All of this seems to work against standing definitions of evolution. Dog don't really count. They can't just due to how it's defined.