Author Topic: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread  (Read 196762 times)

Roled

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #750 on: October 06, 2013, 10:11:17 pm »
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Illysia

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #751 on: October 06, 2013, 11:38:32 pm »
That Carl Sagan video keeps bouncing around in my head. Some thoughts though. What if there are barriers to bringing "beings" from different dimensions into dimensions above their own? For instance, a true flatlander has difficulty existing in a 3 dimenional context because in 3 dimensions we can't truly lack height. What if going into the fourth dimension would means needing some quality that we lack. We could find some sort of way to represent 3 dimensions, but it wouldn't quite be the same, or maybe you just inherently gain some qualities just by transitioning. What if you can only go so many levels beyond your own or you would simply distort the original thing to the point of breaking it?

Also, little square gained what seemed to it like uncanny ability when lifted out of it's dimension. For instance, it could see inside of it's fellow flatlanders, and their buildings. Not to mention it would have perceived the "familiar" aspects differently. They would be used to dealing with each other edge on, but from above you could see all the sides at once and see edges as outlines instead. How would you make sense of sensing some kind of "all at once" quality? And do things like reading minds or seeing things that you aren't supposed to be able to see, just represent tapping into some sense from a higher perspective as it were? Something that would be perfectly normal if you were looking down as it were onto the 3 dimensional world?

And what happens if you metaphorically throw several squares in the air. It's the blind men and the elephant. Everyone preceived an aspect but no one got the whole picture and by the sound of it everyone described a completely contradictory animal. Yet, they were all grasping in a limited way the aspects of the whole creature even if they lacked the ability to tell how much of the whole that piece constituted. If all the squares are thrown out of flatland into a much larger and more complex context, who knows what they might all take away from it. But all of it will sound crazy as the squares will have to simplify descriptions in terms of what exist in flatland which will make for issues in coming up with a description. It wasn't flatland they got thrown up into. Then imagine that over time, the story gets repeated, distorted, and some outright fabrications get thrown in, and you've got a real mess. But that didn't mean that the initial squares did not in fact try and explain as accurately as possible something for which they had poor points of reference, and perhaps they didn't have exposure long enough to be able to recognize what points of reference they could use. Maybe they didn't see a sphere long enough to recognize it as a more complex form of circle, so imagine trying to explain it while also looking around for a point of reference while missing the best point of reference.

Then, the other dimensions are probably not physical as we typically perceive it as in three dimensions, we have to approximate even the more simple dimensions to represent them in out own. So for all we know, trying make sense of that other dimension in terms of 3 dimensional physical point of references would be the equivalent of trying to make sense of a whole universe of Escher stairs without any nice doorways to hide the process of how someone went between two seemingly unrelated points. You'd just see it happen and your brain would spazz.

bloodedIrishman

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #752 on: October 07, 2013, 12:18:40 am »
Pithiness is my middle name.

Volki

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #753 on: October 07, 2013, 12:44:05 am »
I doubt, if there was a two-dimensional universe, that it would harbor life as we think of it. I do not believe it would be possible for us to exist within a two-dimensional universe and especially not a one-dimensional universe. And, as I've thought of it, I do not think that dimensions necessarily occupy universes of their own. There may have been a time in which our universe was one-dimensional (prior the Big Bang), then briefly two-dimensional, and finally three-dimensional.

I came up with that idea long ago, when I decided, "I'm going to solve the Big Bang!" It turns out that physicists have recently considered that possibility. It would be surprising if a kid was right about that, though. I also came up with a ton of other wacky ideas.

Running with the idea of a universe that changes dimensions, I wonder if it could be that some space anomalies, many of which we have witnessed, are sections of the universe that have reverted to the second and first dimensions. And perhaps there are sections of the universe that have advanced to the fourth.
Lace dark dreadfull power inside him awakens now fully resultin his former self comin back lord of dark noble house shantae of mevango family lacertus shadowone mevango also knowed as darkblade of shadows

Rigwyn

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #754 on: October 07, 2013, 01:31:27 am »
A few interesting points...

1. If we entertain the idea of a 2 dimensional being for a moment, think about its sight. We see a warped 2d view of our 3d world.  The depth we see is an illusion. If the flat guy has eyes, he would be only able to see 1d ( a single line left and right ). This is assuming that he could even see at all given that a 1d line has no thicknessl. As we understand things, this would effectively make him blind.

2. If our flat friend was blown into the air and flopped around like a sheet of paper, would it really gain a two dimensional picture of its habitat from above or would it still see this world as a very strange one dimensional line - assuming it *could* see a line? I think point 1 answers this.

3. As Volki already pointed out, life as we understand it could not exist in just two dimensions. Whatever life could exist in only two dimensions would be terribly inferior - or different. We would need to scrap the idea of cells, molecules and atoms as we understand them.

4. Might it be possible that 2d and 4d life forms might share our space without us knowing about it?

Illysia

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #755 on: October 07, 2013, 02:48:53 am »
Well, if we have a warped view of 3D giving us an illusion of depth, then 2D would have similar with a line going right left and an illusion of back and forth. It should still have a sense of proximity meaning there would be some variance in it's field of vision.

Further if he doesn't get a 2 dimensional view of the 3D world, then he gets a far more confusing cross sectional view of the 3D world. Not being able to even perceive the elements of the 3D world as a whole will mean he won't even be able to see the relationships between elements.

True, life as we know it wouldn't exist, but since our context only applies to our context it shouldn't be surprising that other contexts have would their own constraints.

In terms of awareness, I think it is possible for other dimensions to be aware of each other but more than likely representations in a dimension other than your own would be slightly distorted meaning an incomplete or distorted view. But I think those from a higher dimension have an advantage as they likely have more of the means to perceive the beings in the lower dimension. What I mean is that 4 dimensions can account for 3 dimensions but 3 dimensions doesn't have an equivalent of the missing dimension.

Volki

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #756 on: October 07, 2013, 03:37:12 am »
I'm pretty sure that we can understand four-dimensional objects...
Lace dark dreadfull power inside him awakens now fully resultin his former self comin back lord of dark noble house shantae of mevango family lacertus shadowone mevango also knowed as darkblade of shadows

Illysia

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #757 on: October 07, 2013, 03:53:28 am »
You can probably understand a "shadow" of the fourth, but think like in the the 2D model, you can't even perceive the whole so you are missing information. For instance, the tesseract, you can't just imagine it as it should exist in 4D space but you can make a 3D approximation.

Rigwyn

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #758 on: October 07, 2013, 04:28:50 am »
I think arguing about what a person is capable of perceiving is kinda stepping in crap. Its one of those arguments that really goes nowhere quickly. There's no right or wrong here, just "i say yes", vs "you say no".

What do you think about determinism?

Are our future actions determined by the past as is the case with physical objects? Is choice and our ability to steer our lives a magnificent illusion?  In making choices, steering and controlling our lives, are we defying physics?




Illysia

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #759 on: October 07, 2013, 07:41:06 am »
I believe that choice is not an illusion but consequence is the key in shaping our view of our choices. When the consequences carry forward and grow it seems like choices are limited, but I don't think it actually changes your ability to steer your life, but rather it determines which decisions you will seriously consider and how hard a course change will be. You may just have to fight harder to change course when you want, it may take more time to change course, or you may have to stop and force yourself to consider options you don't like to get where you want to go, but I think you always have the ability to steer your life.

You know, let me put a caveat in there that it might depend on where you are and what culture you are in. You may be in a place where this is not the case, but you may have a choice to stay in that situation or to try to go to a context where you do have more control over your choices.


tman

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #760 on: October 07, 2013, 09:12:26 am »
I think his question was meant more on a fundamental level.  Of course on first glance everyone has "choices" all the time.  Right now I can choose to post this comment, or I can choose to click the little red arrow at the top right and exit this window.  The real question comes into play when we consider, what causes a person to make the choices they do?  Or are the choices a person makes simply a function of that person's experiences and brain chemistry?  Did I choose to click "Post" instead of "X" because I have free will, or was it just the chemicals in my brain telling my body what to do based on neural patterns.

The heart of the question is whether you believe in human consciousness beyond the physical body.  Are we simply the sum of the chemicals and bonds that make up our bodies and brains?  Or is there something more?
You can't teach a pig to sing.  It'll never work, and you'll annoy the pig.

bloodedIrishman

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #761 on: October 07, 2013, 09:31:06 am »
We know we are material. We do not know anything more. To accept that we are probably only material, but are certainly at least material, is not disappointing. The universe is exciting to learn about. There is meaning to be had with what we have. Our freedom is extremely limited but still exists.

Rigwyn

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #762 on: October 07, 2013, 10:56:40 am »
I think his question was meant more on a fundamental level.  Of course on first glance everyone has "choices" all the time.  Right now I can choose to post this comment, or I can choose to click the little red arrow at the top right and exit this window.  The real question comes into play when we consider, what causes a person to make the choices they do?  Or are the choices a person makes simply a function of that person's experiences and brain chemistry?  Did I choose to click "Post" instead of "X" because I have free will, or was it just the chemicals in my brain telling my body what to do based on neural patterns.

The heart of the question is whether you believe in human consciousness beyond the physical body.  Are we simply the sum of the chemicals and bonds that make up our bodies and brains?  Or is there something more?

Yes. How do we know that our conscious choices are not just a side effect of something that had to happen due to preexisting conditions. If I shoot a ball at a wall at a 45 degree angle, it will deflect at a mirrored angle. This can be repeated over and over again. The ball is compelled to move and has no choice.

There was an experiment done that showed that it was possible to indicate which choice a person would make a second or so before they were aware of making that choice. (See Readiness Potential (Bereitschaftspotential)) This right here indicates that there is more to our choice making than what we are aware of, but it still does not prove whether we have the power to choose or if choice is an illusion.

There are a lot of interesting caveats to this topic.

For those unfamiliar, yes, this concept is counter-intuitive. You need to get past your "No, that's impossible" reaction in order to explore it :)

Volki

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #763 on: October 07, 2013, 11:52:30 am »
The concept isn't counter-intuitive. When this was first discovered, people were running on the assumption that there was no such thing as free will. In my opinion, that's an assumption that has tainted the field of psychology for too long. So, they looked for proof anywhere they could, and that study fit perfectly in line with their beliefs.

There is no proof anywhere in the results that conscious decision-making is an illusion. I've struggled to understand where this conclusion came from. The researchers went in believing they could measure consciousness, but I don't believe we are even capable of that just yet. Psychology as a hard science is lagging far behind. I think it is because people like to treat it as philosophy.
Lace dark dreadfull power inside him awakens now fully resultin his former self comin back lord of dark noble house shantae of mevango family lacertus shadowone mevango also knowed as darkblade of shadows

bloodedIrishman

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Re: The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread
« Reply #764 on: October 07, 2013, 12:48:03 pm »
These questions have gone unanswered for thousands of years. It's clear that philosophy, mysticism and religion have answered weakly. Let science run its course. It has been mankind's greatest ally.

Study of the alleged supernatural is unreliable. Philosophy, however, is useful for wisdom. Thus attempting to prove our existence is useless. The answer is intuitive. Attempting to find peace of mind is noble.

In short: if it's not science, stick to what's practical when using philosophy.