Author Topic: Commmunity involvement  (Read 3040 times)

Tuathanach

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Commmunity involvement
« on: August 19, 2013, 05:33:28 am »
I do not feel mthat there is enough encouragement for the community to become involved in assisting with developemnt of the game. I do note however the settings teams have had a few attempts to get feedback and involvement from players like on what knowledge NPC's should have, which I feel is a positive move.

I understand the coding side requires specific skills, but there are some areas the community (those who can program) could provide patches for certain bugs or provide potential new features. The last patches I heard of being provided was for the ghosting problem with sacks, but sadly devs had not looked at the patch neither did they seem to be likely to. I understand there are only a few and they have limited time which is probably the main reason in this case.

I was glad to see a few years ago when Amdeneir was created and provided by the community. I think this was great, but there are many smaller art based projects from textures to simple (compared with a whole new town) 3d models that are required in Planeshift which I feel the community can provide.

I would like to see more community encouragement like competitions for new art. I would also like to see a sort of drop in centre where people can post / hand in new content for dev approval and can see a list of what is wanted by the devs as priority items. This would allow people to help development when they can without being tied to the comitment of being a dev, this way people who can help out on their holidays from college/uni can contribute during holidays when they have time.

It was also be nice to see the specs things need to adhear to. For Example character model must be a maximum of 1500 faces/polys, advise head ~ 400, body ~ 300, arms, 100, hands ~ 200, legs ~ 200 & feet ~ 300. Also requires following animations walk, run, sit, stand, attack & mine.
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Eonwind

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2013, 06:34:33 am »
I understand the coding side requires specific skills, but there are some areas the community (those who can program) could provide patches for certain bugs or provide potential new features. The last patches I heard of being provided was for the ghosting problem with sacks, but sadly devs had not looked at the patch neither did they seem to be likely to. I understand there are only a few and they have limited time which is probably the main reason in this case.

This is not true if you look at the bug tracker http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/flyspray/ you will see how many patches are being committed and tested, the problem is every single patch needs to be tested otherwise not only it may not solve the bug but it can introduce a new bug itself, and testing requires a lot of time.

I was glad to see a few years ago when Amdeneir was created and provided by the community. I think this was great, but there are many smaller art based projects from textures to simple (compared with a whole new town) 3d models that are required in Planeshift which I feel the community can provide.

if some players want to pickup a project and work on it (or even better a players team) they only need to log in #planeshift-prospects or send a private message to the department leader and speak about what they want to do.
For example I've always said that I'm open to provide guidance for anyone willing to implement new crafting; as it basically requires no further engine development (at least server side) it's all about providing the data (which is a lot of work).
An example are two prospects that are working on two new crafting: Rheos (working on Brewing) and Skelbellor (working on bow making), it's a lot of work and I thanks them for it.
I would like to launch more competitions for arts, crafting data and the like but I have really no time to do so because I have a job and PS development takes up a lot of my free time.

We also lack a PR dev and he should be the one handling community competitions and this sort of things; so if any of you is willing to work along us to support such initiatives he/she is very welcome to do so!
Another big problem we have to face are peoples joining in, starting a task and then never complete it, this is of course sup-optimal as it require us time to get the task started and eventually teach people how to do the job and this time is then wasted, but it's ok we know it can happens.

Also note for events it's already happening: players take the lead organizing an event and along us and the GM team we help to provide what's necessary to help.

So if anyone want to help best way would be to form a group (if possible) contact one of us, starts a small task and try hard to complete it.

It was also be nice to see the specs things need to adhear to. For Example character model must be a maximum of 1500 faces/polys, advise head ~ 400, body ~ 300, arms, 100, hands ~ 200, legs ~ 200 & feet ~ 300. Also requires following animations walk, run, sit, stand, attack & mine.

http://planeshift.top-ix.it/pswiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

The wiki contains many informations on what is required to make stuff for PS and how to provide it, of course some info are outdated but here we may use your help to keep it up to date.

I will also take the chance to say I am looking for player's help to update the Player's Guide:
http://planeshift.top-ix.it/pswiki/index.php?title=Players_Guide
it's pretty out of date but with the player's help we can get it in good shape, some players already volunteered to provide some help.

Tuathanach

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2013, 07:53:55 am »
I supose what I was saying was for it to look easier and more inviting to contribute. I also understand that there are a limited number of devs with limited time and not all areas like PR are filled. I am grateful to what the devs have achieved with limited resources. But I would like to see some more encouragement from the dev towards the community (and of course more thanks given to the devs for their hard work). The Devs development blog was a good idea but sadly it seems to have faded.
http://planeshift.top-ix.it/pswiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

The wiki contains many informations on what is required to make stuff for PS and how to provide it, of course some info are outdated but here we may use your help to keep it up to date.

I have seen this but it does not provide the information I am looking for what is required for a character model all it says is
Quote
Monster or character model

See our tools pipeline document for details.
and assets needed
Quote
Assets Needed

Here is a list of assets you may decide to create and contribute to PlaneShift:
Screenshots used as advertizing or press material
Sketches and concept art
Fan made videos
Icons
Textures for existing models
New 3d items (geometry, UVs, textures) used as props
Full areas (for example a new cave level)
Monster or character model (geometry, UV, textures)
Monsters or character rigging (skeleton/bones setup)
Monsters or characters animation
Skins for the game User Interface
Rendered scenes used as advertizing or press material (example youtube channel)
For me this is all to vague. I understand that this wiki is not a priority and that dev time is limited and precious.

I appologise if this sounds like an attack on devs, I do actually appreciate what they have done. I want to see the community helping the devs and working better together, currently I feel communication is a problem, but the met the devs and the dev blog do help. I feel that there is too much of a gap between both sides and seem at times to be working against each other.
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Eonwind

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2013, 09:58:58 am »
I appologise if this sounds like an attack on devs, I do actually appreciate what they have done. I want to see the community helping the devs and working better together, currently I feel communication is a problem, but the met the devs and the dev blog do help. I feel that there is too much of a gap between both sides and seem at times to be working against each other.

No attack or offense have been taken so no need for apologies  ;)
I feel like the same about communication, when I joined the devs I was hoping I could fill the gap a bit but time constrain and RL issues prevented me from doing what I wanted to, so I just concentrated on what I was the only one able to work on (due to a mix of knowledge on how things have to be done, access to devs tools, ...): fixing/improving scripts, making new crafting, fixing rules bugs, ...

If anyone is willing to fill in that gap I'm more than happy to help him/her.

Chessire

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2013, 12:16:58 pm »
Seeing you are right in some of the things you say and after last night's in-game meeting I have created this thread. I hope it covers enough for someone to get started. :)

http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=41370.0

Roled

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2013, 01:29:17 pm »
Last night was the first time I went to a dev meeting in game (most of it) and (most of it) was way over this non-tech player's head
BUT
I was glad I went: I learned things and appreciated listening to the back and forth discussions.

Let me SECOND  \\o// Tua's et al's comment about need for community involvement, ESPECIALLY IN PR.  I think art competitions are a great idea, and if everyone in the PS community that has some pr /outreach skills, and connections to other gaming rp potential players, websites, listservs, zines, etc, if we concentrated for a time - maybe this fall, in organizing such outreach and potential competitions, perhaps both objectives of community building and player count increase might be positively addressed? 

Can we get our talented and tech savvy players involved in a shorter term, ad hoc, outreach push this fall supported by non tech and rpers organizing player in game events, along with big fun GM events like the assault? Like an event a week? Could we do this?  Is this a good idea?

RR
the artistically gifted and technically idiotic elf  ::|
"RR is a PieSexual" ~ Monala

Venalan

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2013, 01:41:20 pm »
I've tried quite hard to get people involved with PS, adding community tags to threads I want people to comment on. Many of the things people have said in those I've added to the game and many others I will get to. I chatted a lot with people in IRC about the tutorial and many of the players comments are in there.

I've started threads asking for people to make things and how to go about it, to which I've had only two different players respond (one of which was roled).

I've commented at meet the Dev meetings about talking to us about making things.

I've asked in game hundreds of times, and have had chats with a dozen or so people about the process of making content.

But when it comes to players (who are not prospects or devs) deciding to create or make somethings for settings all my asking has resulted in 4 people offering things they have made to be added to settings, or to make new things for settings (one of which was also roled and his work is awesome, I really like it). To me it seems really very hard to get people to help. I would absolutely love it if everyone in the game made one item a year, or one item every 6 months as the amount of content would explode. Maybe the impression the Dev team has in the wider game is the problem. It is very very very easy to make things on your own time line, be it hours, days or weeks. Player contributions can take as long as are needed to finish, there are no deadlines. The only thing I look for is an interesting piece of work which would improve the game for all.
..

Tuathanach

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2014, 05:36:17 pm »
What a lot has happened in just over a year. I have gone from a player criticising the lack of community involvement and lack of Dev encouragement to becoming a prospect and now an associate dev. There is a page with info on how to join the Dev team http://www.planeshift.it/Join%20Us. there is also an IRC channel on freenode #planeshift-prospects for those interested in joining or contributing to this game.

Over the last year I feel that in reality little has changed in the way things are run, nor have I done a lot to change this. But I now probably have better understanding from dev point of view, this is a hard bridge to gap. As a Dev you are a volunteer and many of us work and or study full time and some have families, so time is limited. Community based projects are time consuming and guarantee nothing. Also most of us have a list of things to do and have to prioritise. Some of us in dev team do ask from time to time feedback from players and I still believe Dev Q+A is useful.

However in the near future I would like to ask the community to help me with a project for Planeshift. Assuming no experience on your part required what are people interested in contributing, Initially the main thing will be quests and if interest also will be books. If people are interested in contributing these or anything else in game I am happy to speak with them and direct as best I can, you can contact me in game, via PM or on IRC on #planeshift-prospects. Or ask in this thread.
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Illysia

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2014, 05:42:15 pm »
Do you mean contribute in general or things that require the license to be signed?

Tuathanach

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2014, 02:46:47 am »
Do you mean contribute in general or things that require the license to be signed?
As far as I am aware most things need the license signed.
http://www.planeshift.it/License for more info on license. I know previously there was skunkworks, which was a player project aimed at creating new content, which did the work behind leatherworking and leather armour crafting.
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Illysia

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2014, 03:32:42 am »
Eliseth lead the skunkworks but has not been seen for awhile I'm sure.

Tuathanach

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2014, 05:15:49 am »
I have a couple of questions for people.
1: Are people interested in contributing to either a: a project lead by me or b: the game in general?
2: Do people have ideas to increase/encourage community involvement in game development?

I do feel most in this community are capable of contributing.
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TheAuthor

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2014, 04:34:20 pm »
I have a couple of questions for people.
1: Are people interested in contributing to either a: a project lead by me or b: the game in general?
2: Do people have ideas to increase/encourage community involvement in game development?

I do feel most in this community are capable of contributing.


I have a couple of questions for people.
1: Are people interested in contributing to either a: a project lead by me or b: the game in general?
2: Do people have ideas to increase/encourage community involvement in game development?

I do feel most in this community are capable of contributing.

As an ex-prospect, who tried but lost motivation after a month and a half, I can provide some context to the how and why people will not contribute. Just one opinion among many, don't take it too hard.

How to Enter the Dev-team.
People join the dev-team all the time. In my short stay I've seen plenty of folk trying to join the team. It's rather easy to join, which is great: Just sign up the google docs document and present yourself in the IRC-chat, which is operated by people who are online 24/7. These people welcome you, point you to your manager. He interviews you and he gives you a task. Depending in the department, you get swift access to certain parts of a dedicated dev-wiki. Here you can look at models, stories, all the quests, textures and every in-game book you can think of.

Once you've completed your first task, you gain the respect of your fellow developers who will then quickly give you a new assignment and before long you can call yourself a real planeshift dev...

Right? That would be the optimal way of handling recruits but sadly this cannot be the case due to time and energy constraints. Everybody's a volunteer after all. Let me paint my experience

You sign up for the crew. You wait a week before you get answer. In the mean while you join #planeshift-prospects and find that it is empty, unless you live in certain parts of the world. After rejoining for several days (since most people do not keep their laptop/pc on for 24/7 to keep a constant connection) you finally meet one of the devs.

After explaining yourself he tells you he needs to find something called a ABC-license which you have to sign in order to join. This is a basic contract which in turn hands over all your rights of your created content. Quite reasonable but some may find it hard to hand over their babies unconditionally. With some luck you'll get the contract after a week of waiting. When you hand it in another week for a response.

Now you're in. The problem is that the person that welcomed you isn't the department leader of your department. So you can chat all you'd like but he can't give you an assignment. This is because of the fragmented nature of the development team, which serves as a sort of Titanic; You could poke a hole somewhere, but nobody will have access to 100% of the content at any time.

Finally, after finding the correct person in the chat (or sending several emails as I have) you get a response and a task. This is often a very simple, orientational task so you will grasp the concept. You complete the task fairly quickly but got no response for a while. Then I turned to one of the devs and asked if I could help. He said he could use some help but I would have to go by my manager to request this transfer. Once again I have to note that the only way to talk to my manager was to find him online, on IRC at exactly the same time as I was online.

So I believe we took a shortcut and I just started on working for the project (note that we're about a month into the process now). I had to write a few quests in the quest syntax. But just writing isn't good enough, you have to make every last little part fit in the ever expanding world of planeshift. Unless your character was 100% thought out, it would't be accepted by the people responsible.

I didn't quit officially, but drifted away as my attention was simply drawn to other places. I didn't feel like misplacing my unending enthusiasm and precious time in a project that didn't respond in kind. I lost motivation and here I am telling my story.

Communication.
Note in my story that the communication was slow. It took weeks for e-mails to be answered and IRC is only effective for those that have servers that run 24/7. For most people it's simply a lucky draw, influenced by your timezone, whether you will find the person you require. IRC is lauded as the end-all-be-all of communication technology and this will probably never change in the minds of the dev-team.

Community-Feeling.
As an outsider, you are just that. Rather than a warm welcome you are treated as if you're probably going to drop out anyway. The only way to be accepted is to have an undying appreciation for the current way of how things are done, to have endless internal motivation to provide and help and have unlimited patience in order to receive your seniority.

The dev team has stated that they're not there to motivate. Personally, I don't think that's a thankful way to lead a team made of people that offer their time to your freely.

Leadership.
The team is fragmented and based on a "leader-team" model on purpose. I understand that. However, it meant that the quickest way I got anything done was to talk to fellow prospects and apprentice-developers as they were just as lost as I was.

On the chat I met a 3D-modeller, who left after two weeks because nobody in charge would be online whenever he was. When they finally were, his models were deemed 'okay' as he endured lots of 'constructive critisism' which demotivated him a lot. While it is easy to write what should be changed, it cost him time. In this case it was to make really nonsensical things, such as oven-doors I believe, or a miss-alignment of the textures. Both?

He left after creating just a single model, probably not even used in-game yet. I got the guy's Skype and what he told me was simple: Nobody was online, they want silly changes and when I've changed the model, nobody responds.

Rather than simply accepting the model, asking him to make a model of something else, returning after a month or so to ask for the oven's doors when it's no problem... The man had to endure critisism upon non-reaction. (Honestly, the quickest way to lose motivation?)

The Technology.
The wiki, the IRC. They are all useful in the creation of such a game. However, the wiki is rarely updated (I was adviced against using it intensely) and IRC is considered the best of the best. Regardless of the fact that there are many powerful and complex project management tools which could streamline many processes. But, even though we could easily use IRC alongside a management tool, IRC is the only means of communication deemed neccesary.

Assertiveness.
Any attempts to prospects to create something of their own is squashed quickly by the development team. You need to create what you're tasked to do or you won't do anything. Maps, books, textures even models that arn't asked for will be trown away, never to be used. Rather than using an organical growth model, where a person builds, under guidance, what he prefers and receives satisfaction from, growth is bottlenecked by the development leaders.

Quality
The developers want to make this the best game ever. Every quest, story, texture, model etc. handed in is scrutinied extensively and won't be used unless it's 'quality' work. This level of quality is purely based on the subjective opinion of the development leader. Regardless of the hours you put in the texture, if he wants a certain thing changed, you better work at it some more. If you want every user/volunteer to add content to the game, you simply cannot adhere to this demand in the current way.

Tradition
And finally, simultaniously the greatest threat and champion of the entire project. The notion that 'this is how it's done and this will never change'. New prospects are expected to enter the fold mindlessly, to follow suit and drone ahead untill a higher position can be attained through seniority.

New ideas are squashed without a second thought. Attempts to communicate to the developers that things should change are taken as an insult to the achievements the team has made. Attempts to persuade the owner to loosen the demands of quality or the strict adherance to 'self-made' content (i.e. Not allowing to use license-free websites that happens to have the texture readily available for commercial use for example) is seen as an attempt to weaken the game's stature as 'The greatest, most uniquest MMO ever!'.

But I won't be listened to. The underlying message will be ignored and my words will be dissected minutely for truths and half-truths or deleted. Below me will be angry posts by insulted people that defend the status quo. People that tell me to change the system myself if I have such great words! People that will reason we're doing the best we can since we're only volunteers! People that will reason with logic that what they're doing really works! That it's not us, but the people who must change!

I don't know why I wrote this as it doesn't matter. Nothing will be gained and nobody will suddenly open their mind or change their ways because of my words. Instead new words will be written and traditions defended regardless of the glaring truth; With the current ways of doing things, people are leaving faster than that they join.

Tuathanach

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2014, 05:08:47 pm »
I am sorry for your experience as a prospect theAuthor, I would say not everyone has such a bad experience. When I started this thread just over a year ago my only dev work was helping out with skunkworks project (which was a player only project no actual official devs) which was trying to do leather crafting. I would say that at times as a prospect things can seem to go slow and patience is needed, due to the fact that the devs are at times busy with life.

In the past Year I went from player -> Prospect -> Dev and have been able to contribute to new crafting with Data, Testing, art and quests. To be fair I will say that I have worked with prospects but also been busy with life and been slow (sometimes too slow) in responding. I also have had content rejected and it is disappointing but we do need quality control. I have looked back on some of the content I had rejected and later realised that it could be better.

What I am now hoping to achieve from this is to get several people to contribute a little bit to a project like maybe one quest and then when combined these parts they will make something bigger for all to enjoy.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 05:21:00 pm by Tuathanach »
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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2014, 05:48:07 pm »
Just looking at the requirements to join leave me out. I've never liked table-top rpg's and one of my complaints has been those that use that model instead of the 3d mechanics of the game. I could write some quests and books but how would it be received?

I am really happy with my friends that have joined the team, Taya, Jilare and Eredin. They have done great work. I can really see Taya's hand in some of the new quests. \\o//

I guess my main job has been to help new players get a good start, but I am not the only one doing it. We need to hold on to the new players.