Author Topic: too much magic...???  (Read 1634 times)

roguewolftamer

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« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2003, 03:14:56 am »
paxx, by AC im hoping ur saying about asheron\'s call, that was my first MMORPG and i think its still better then AC2 (whenever i left anyways) but yes i want the magic system to be unique, not to have a higher skill means doing more dmg, i want skill to depend on how easily i can learn it and cast it (a fizzle instead would be a really weak spell, done right would be a normal dmg spell, flawless cast or a critical would double or add 50% to the normal dmg) but one thing im hoping it see is that with lvls u can get special skill points to add to magic or skills of sort, that can increase a certain stat of the skill/spell, such as dmg cast time (if there is any) mana cost, duration, range, ect. something like that would make it more unique though im not sure how many ppl would like it, seeing how u could make one spell really strong, cost 1 mana, shoot really far or a debuff (i.e. armor reduce spell) that lasts too long, meaning there needs to be a set limit till a certain lvl when it\'ll increase alittle more

Abemore

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« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2003, 08:56:37 am »
Agreed paxx.

I merely neglected to elaborate on the balance of cause and effect... assuming that it would be added out of necessity.

While I cannot think of much in terms of risk, I can think of ways to reduce obnoxious levels of spell sharing such as:

1.  Student unable to learn spell due to lack of skill (already mentioned - intelligence).

2.  Teacher unable to teach a spell until she has mastered it.

3.  Teacher\'s cost of time and stamina to teach a spell.

4.  Student\'s cost of time/stamina/health to learn a spell.

5.  Student\'s skill with a newly learned spell may vary depending on the Instructors mastery or teaching skill.  May make more sense to go find a scroll, or find another teacher.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2003, 08:57:43 am by Abemore »

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lostprophet

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« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2003, 10:52:19 am »
I put this idea up on another discussion:

There would be a certain number of magic words in the game. Instead of the character pressing a button to cast a spell or selecting it from a list, they would say a combination of these words (these could be typed manually or different buttons could correspond with different words). Anyone could know these words, but just saying them would not do the spell unless they had enough skill in magic or had been taught the spell.

I like Abemore\'s idea for both the teacher and the pupil needing to give up maybe not health or money but just the time it takes to learn the spell. To elaborate on that, maybe there could be npc teachers? Like you pay a fee to go to school and you could go to a selection of classes, which would teach you the basics of different skill areas. If you paid the fee for magic classes, you could be in a big class and would have to keep practising for about 10 - 15 minutes until you knew all the basic spells (I mean the standard fireballs etc).

How about that?


en3r0

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« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2003, 03:10:28 pm »
sounds good, but could you go out and find a basic scroll for red magic, and teach it to your self knowing nothing about red magic? I think if you want to do a certain section of magic (red, black, yellow) You should have to go to a teacher of that certain section. after you learn the basics, you can find and practic spells on your own.

like?

God Bless,
-en3r0

zaphar

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« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2003, 05:46:53 pm »
I like the idea of a Magic Economy like AC had but what would truly be awesom is this:

If some facility for the creation of new spells by the character was created. For Instance Very Skillful Mage meditates for a long time on some certain type of magic: Result Mage formulates brand New spell. He can choose to teach or hoard it.

A research skill would be excellent in my opinion. AC and EQ both tried to implement something like this but neither one did it very well.
*Zaphar grins roguishly as he exits the post


Wormtail_

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« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2003, 04:47:16 am »
The word usage for casting spells idea looks okay to me, but I see a few problems.

One is that I, for one, will not take the time to memorize a few spellwords for a.. game. Laziness may be a contributing factor, but I just don\'t like memorizing things for a game. If I play something long enough and am interested in it, I might end up knowing and memorizing things unconsciously, but U\'d rather wait for that to happen than force myself to do things.

Quote
sounds good, but could you go out and find a basic scroll for red magic, and teach it to your self knowing nothing about red magic? I think if you want to do a certain section of magic (red, black, yellow) You should have to go to a teacher of that certain section. after you learn the basics, you can find and practic spells on your own.


I like this idea, but perhaps there can be other teachers who can teach you the more advanecd ways of each Way. But you have to know the basics before you move on to the advanced (or risk suffering ailments to terrible to discuss). So I lke this idea.

Quote
If some facility for the creation of new spells by the character was created. For Instance Very Skillful Mage meditates for a long time on some certain type of magic: Result Mage formulates brand New spell. He can choose to teach or hoard it.


Hmm... Exactly what do you mean by \'meditate?\' As in, what do you do while meditating? And I think that if everyone starts creating brand new spells, things will go a little out of hand/wing/claw/other substitue for hand.

I have another idea. No, please don\'t run away, I will be explaining this in a few paragraphs. You MUST read it all. Then I\'ll give you a cookie. What I am thinking of doing is like something similar to the combinging of creatures in Impossible Creatures. Except we use spell types instead of creatures. This is similar to the idea Lostprophet cam eup with, but not quite. The difference would be that each\' \'spell\' substituting for the creature would have a certain number of points that can be used up by, again as Lostprophet said in his other post, spell actions.

For example, if the limit of points was 25 points, and some mage wanted to create a new spell using the action thingies he already knew, he would do the following to create a new spell. First, select a spell action from a list. He selects \'fireball (10 points).\' To improve it, he adds \'Holy Light (12 pints)\'. He now has 3 points left. He will not add anything else for the heck of it because the effects of the spell/the number of points used up willl increase mana cost and have a few other effects that will not make people want to \'add stuff for the heck of it.\'

What do you think? This idea is not exactly polished yet, but you get the idea. I will verify this idea if you wish for me to do so. Now, if you have read all this, here is your cookie. (hands over cookie) If you haven\'t and took the cookie, that cookie is poisonous. Now run along now, and go... do stuff!

Some more rambling from me.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2003, 04:48:03 am by Wormtail_ »
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en3r0

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« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2003, 03:09:14 pm »
the point system sound good :) that would add a lot of fun to the game, good idea :)

God Bless,
-en3r0

paxx

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« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2003, 04:28:36 pm »
What I am generally saying is that overall I do not like any of the magic systems I have played currently, they are all very mechanical and non-magical in my opinion.

If spells loose effectiveness as more people have them?then a year after the game is in full production and from then on, mages will begin to have less and less value as their spells become more popular, or up and coming casters will never learn the secrets of the masters (if we allow the knowledge to be hoarded).

Or magic will have to improve so much so often that it will be silly. There will literally be the spell flavor of the week.

Now as far as the type a word to cast a spell?we have contemplated something similar but much more difficult to program at the moment?it is not approved and may never see the light of day?but I will say it is very similar.

On the construction of spells based on very loose templates and  making a point system for it.

I like it but would warn that it is very hard to balance such things, spells would have advantages (more range, pierce armor and such) and disadvantages (does not work in well lit locations, does not work under water, uses hit points to cast) the problem with this is every possible variation will need to be tested, as something like Kran Killer (base spell  (something that does double damage to Krans) (more damage *20) (reduce range to touch) (extra fast casting time) (extra go through the typical armor Kran types wear) (does not work on anything else other then Kran) (cast only once per minute).

And then someone can make that same spell for each player race?changing the base spell, and it would take up 12 spell creations but give the player a death touch to any player he chooses (in PvP type fighting) a guild might have crews all grouping to hunt certain races in arena type fighting and would literally steam roll over most, and if I was being really dickly I would also have a teleport enemy to me spell.

So I cast teleport enemy to me I touch him and he dies?and I run for a minute, my partner does the same to another and so on?.

While I would not allow such an abuse in this game, there will be similar things that would not seem so abusive at the onset and for some odd reason they are totally overpowering.

Or the other end of the spectrum. Someone make what he thinks will be a totally cool spell and uses up his XP in the possess?and when he uses it, it not only seems to be non-effective it really pisses off all the NPCs near him making them all attack him?Now that is only useful in any way as a spell to teach to people who really bug you to teach them a spell.  

You may get what I am saying or you may not, simply put, a player created spell would have to be nothing more then a prefab that we did not announce, cause if we don?t test the spell, we can?t tell if it is unbalancing or useless, and we do not want characters with either type of spell.
-Paxx

zaphar

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« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2003, 08:58:11 pm »
Very good points Paxx

The introduction of new spells into a game through accidental discovery by a mage would be a cool idea I think. That way you can test the spells first then set up a way for different mages discover them. Not by locating the one shop in the one map in the whole game which sells it but by some sort of research method. The feeling of being a mage forging new ground is preserved and new spells are introduced into the game. These spells could then be disseminated by the learned mages.

And if there are worries about hoarding then you could have a system where once a spell has been used a certain amount of time then it starts appearing other places like in shops or the old wise man of the village. Where ever.
*Zaphar grins roguishly as he exits the post


Drilixer

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« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2003, 10:51:29 pm »
I think there should be a Sorceror type character (in contrast to a wizard who has to learn magic) (a wizard-typse could also exist) who gains spells as he/she places points into different magic schools - of course high end spells would require a LOAD of points - this would also help keep mages from mastering everything since they could either: A: put skill points into every \'path\' of magic and only learn the beggining/middle spells or B: focus on one or two types of magic and learn high end spells from only the areas they put skils in neglecting the rest

Think of this skill system as a search for inner knowledge and remember this quote from Siddhartha:

\"Wisdom is not communicable.  The wisdom which a wise man tries to communicate always sounds foolish.\"