No skill limitation

[WSIMike]

Hey... Thanks ;-)

No offense taken.. after all everyone\'s just posting their own opinions here. No one\'s any more wrong or right than anyone else.

I\'m not sure what the devs have in mind for the skill system (from what I\'ve read, there\'s something about certain skills going to level 8 or something like that)... What they do will be, I\'m sure, well considered and balanced out.

I\'m just pointing out that I think an open-ended, non-specific \"blue-sky\" skill level setup takes away any real sense of accomplishment besides getting as high as possible - which will never be reached because, theoretically, there is no measure of what \"high enough\" is.. except for perhaps when the player burns out or decides to do something else.

Working away at something like leveling is only meaningful when it\'s given some tangible meaning or measure.  Providing milestones, title levels, etc. gives a player a set of \"intermediate goals\" to work toward. It\'s not only \"becoming as powerful as possible\" that matters. Getting there is just as important.

Again, I have complete confidence in the Dev team\'s ability to make the right decisions and/or tweak or change what they find not to work.. I was just offering a different point-of-view on the concept of skill leveling.

Anyway... there ya go :-).

Originally posted by Ikarsik
nice idea mike. please dont be offended by any criticism you recieve from me because i am a kind of single minded person =P

i dont think branching was in the mind of the ps devs making this game

there is like a dagger skill or something which you can train in and a sword skill or whatever in which you train too

also to gain a  skill point it requires a certain amount of experience.

so like we have experience which gives skill points and skill points which give rank lol how good is that?

so lets say to gain a skill point the amount of experience required is equal to the number of skill points you already have squared. ok so lol it gets harder to get a skill point each level.

so like that might take a bit long and you would use a much better formula of course to do this but can you see what i mean? and like you could have monsters giving more experience the higher level they are. or... you could have it like the experience is skill point squared then divided by 2 or something and monsters could then have less experience attached to them so the game uses less memory and takes up less space.

so thats how you could like stop people from getting to high

[Toadhead]

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by Toadhead
NO LIMITATIONS!!

This is an RP game, RP Games must work like this:

(Almost) Every time you play you\'ll be better, you get more items/money and you will raise levels/skills

If there\'s a skill or level limit this would realy suck, after some time you can\'t be better :\'(

Well.. I don\'t know if RP games *must* work like that.. It\'s certainly an option.

My only concern is, when you leave something so open-ended, after a while, you\'re bound to have people with a skill level of some obscenely high number getting bored because there\'s only so many new and unique encounters the devs can provide.  Basically, if you\'re going to have an unlimited skill level system, to keep it challenging at all levels, you\'d have to also have challenges of unlimited difficulty to keep those players entertained... I\'m not sure the devs want to spend that much time creating brand-new content indefinitely.

I\'m sure there\'s some middle-ground somewhere, but just making it blue-sky like that is likely going to introduce its own set of problems down the road.

 don\'t realy agree with you, with a unlimited skils and levels system you don\'t need an umlimited difficulty system..becuase it will almost impossible to raise levels after some while, if you work with the \"you need more exp to raise a level when you have a higher level\" system!

And an unlimited level system would be possible..ofcourse fight against other players, or create creatures that would get the same thats as you as as soon as you fight with them

[WSIMike]

Oh, I agree.. if it were set up where the creatures\' difficulty were dynamically set within a certain range based on your level, it would certainly extend the gameplay.. but after a while you really are just fighting the same creatures over and over again.. And if that comment were to be raised, \"well, find something to do other than leveling\" isn\'t a viable response. The player is playing the game the way they choose to.

As for attaining higher levels to be somewhat impossible after a while - Heh.. I wouldn\'t put it past folks to try anyway. And, if the option is available, players with skill levels many times that of the average player have to be provided every bit the gaming experience as those many times lower.

I do see the point others are making in the infinite level concept and am not dismissing it. And, of course it\'s do-able. I\'m just thinking of the gameplay aspect of it. \"Leveling Up\" in an RPG is not a goal - it\'s a given. Unless you\'re standing in one spot doing nothing, you\'re likely to wind up doing *something* that is in some way going to earn you skill levels in something. Without set goals, or stepping-stones, milestones, etc. to achieve along the way, people tend to meander and lose focus and become bored. Leveling with no goal other than to keep getting higher in levels becomes a grind after a while. Some have a much higher threshold than others, but eventually, it loses its appeal. This is often as true in life as it is in games (does this apply to *everyone*? Of course, not.. Does it apply to many if not most? Most definitely). Doing something over and over with no definable goal to doing so can become nothing more than going through the motions.

Let\'s say this, then... as sort of a combo of the two...
How about a system that works initially like the one I outlined in my post - it doesn\'t even have to have the branching skills aspect. Once you\'ve reached that \"master level\", you can continue to build your skill levels further to infinity.. but your title or \"rank\" just doesn\'t change? This way, those who are building their characters based on a set outline of milestones are satisfying their goal for their characters, while those indifferent one way or the other can just continue on past that for as long as they wish.

It\'s kinda like belts in martial arts. There are defined \"ranks\" you work through in reaching Black Belt. But, once you\'re a black-belt.. sure, you go up by degrees.. but you\'re still a black-belt.

It\'s clear by the difference of opinion in these posts that both types of player are represented.. So, the trick is to find that \"sweet spot\" where both types of player are being provided what they look for (if not in entirety, at least in good part), and neither is being shut out completely.

Of course in the end this is purely up to the discretion of the developers.

Anyways.. good discussion!

[Seru]

The solution is easy to say but dificult to do.  This solution is Dinamyc Combat Sistem,  You know, if a batle is siimpla as click into the enemy and click in \"atack\" for sure the combat are doom to be so boring in sometime.  If only you can \"control\" the attacks..... well, for sure this is a MMORPG and no a action game, but put some dimanist in the combat not have to is so hard ?Or yes? I\'m not a programer but I think is possible.
This \"Dinamyc COmbat Sistem\" (DCS) can generate some lag (?Or not? I really not know...) for the extra Kb of info what your PC have to send to the server. But if the DCS is avariable you know....  ?Somebody of you haven\'t that great feeling from massacre enemys in the Battles like the Dynasty Warriors? I Know PaneShift isn\'t Diansty Warrior but I think I was explain what I want to say (?Or not? My english isn\'t very good...)

[Toadhead]

I don\'t mean that ALL creatures need to copy your stats, but if some creatures (that you can only fight in an colosuem or somtihng) will copy your stats so they have the same strgnth as you that would be cool

[Seru]

You want to say what a lvl 1 PJ have the same possibilitis of survive the coliseum\'s combat than a lvl 100 PJ?

[Ikarsik]

well lets say with unlimited skills you have a monster on lvl 1 giving 100 exp and a monster on lvl 2 giving 200 exp and it could go on like this.

now lets say you are using a one handed mace. So you are raising your one-handed blunt weapons skill.

lets say to complete skill level 1 in this skill and move on to skill level 2 you need 100 exp. So one kill of the lvl 1 monster.

now you are on level 2 and to get to skill level 3 you need to get 400 exp. so 4 kills of level one monster and 2 of level 2 monster.

now lets say a level 12 monster gives 1200 exp.

to raise your skill past 12 and on to 13 you need 14400 exp. This is a few more kills lol

Can you see where i am going?

Doing this would probably keep everyone close in levels lol because people would raise through the lower levels then get stuck

so we would need to stretch out and weaken the effect of this.

but anyway it would take hundreds of thousands of kills to raise higher at  a certain stage. so lets see...

a lvl 200 monster has 20000 exp

you need 4000000 exp to get to next level (21)

so like 200 kills.

so maybe lol it needs to be stretched and strengthened towards the end to make leveling harder but anyway but anyway...

[Seru]

ummm, I think I cacht it now, yes, i will be cool, but only for colyseum tipe stages, I don\'t wana see a rat kill me when I have level 50....

[Thardin]

I just read somewhere in the forums here that the rank you have (in magic, could be any other skill) is different from the skill level you have.
So if you have a maximum *rank*, you could still have an unlimited skillsystem.
So the system WSIMike suggested (titles, but no max skills) might already be implemented in cb, who knows.

[Ikarsik]

if only my build wouldnt keep stuffing up... boohoo. But anyway maybe go onto irc and ask lol but ya like rank would determine like what you could do and skill level would determine how well you could do it and then exp would determine like what skill level you had

[WSIMike]

Well, leveling and XP gain has been done in so many other games to good effect that I think it\'d be difficult to *not* come up with one that works.

Remember, it\'s hard - almost nigh short of impossible - to give any one scenario for how many XP an encounter would give and thus how long it would take for someone to level up...

Take into consideration the following (common) scenarios:

1. Player level vs. MOB level:
In general, there\'s a formula that determines how much XP is gained per kill based on the MOB level compared to the player level.

Player is 0-3 levels < MOB = Best XP gain per kill
Player is 1-3 levels > MOB = XP gain per kill decreases
Player is 4+ levels > MOB = XP gain decreases, makes it more and more a waste of the player\'s time to continue killing this MOB.

2. Player Party/Team level vs. MOB Level

In party situations, they could conceivably go after far more powerful creatures which sorta raises the bar a bit. So the same system could conceivably work, but on a more \"escalated\" setup.. Parties of 3 lvl 10 players could conceivably go after a MOB that\'s level 15 - maybe more. So those situations carry their own \"ideal\" level range, etc, and in fact, a level 15 MOB against a party of level 10s might be considered \"evenly matched\", relatively speaking.. That\'s a bit more complicated.

The point is, XP gain is not an absolute as there\'s always some kind of formula working behind the scenes, taking a \"base\" amount of XP and modifying it based on the player\'s or the party\'s level versus the MOB\'s level.

It seems that in that kind of setup, the higher level the MOB, the higher the \"base\" XP value is for it - so... while a lower level MOB, say around level 10 skill level, might have a base value of, oh.. 100XP (for example\'s sake), well that\'s going to either increase or decrease for the player killing it based on that player\'s level relative to the MOB\'s. Likewise, a higher level MOB that\'s maybe level 100 could have a base XP value of 1000, which will, again, decrease or increase somewhat relative to the level of the player fighting it.

That\'s something, I think, that we may well be seeing alot of tweaking going on with over time because until a system is put into practice, it\'s rather difficult for the devs to see whether it\'s making the game too easy or too hard or is ideally balanced, etc...

Remember, too, that there are different types of players.. There are those who are gonna consistently go after those mobs that are 3 or 4 levels higher than them because they want that \"near death\" thrill of fighting.. They\'ll gain alot of XP per kill at the cost of a lot of down-time for healing, etc. While others will take the safer route and maybe take on mobs that are an even match or maybe a little weaker - they\'ll have less down-time at the cost of less XP gain. Then there are those who will mix it up based on their mood at that given time (that\'s how I tend to be :-); sometimes feeling super aggressive.. sometimes not feeling quite so brazen...

So, how fast a player advances through the levels/ranks is largely dependent on their playstyle. The ones who wish to reach the highest levels are likely to be the ones who are most aggressive while the ones who aren\'t so focused on that, or maybe more \"protective\" of their character, are likely to be more liesurely and take longer to get there.

I\'m real curious to see how that works out.

[Kiva]

I\'ve always dreamt of playing a game where it is possible for someone to eventually become a semi-godlike player. I mean, let\'s just take a dragon as an example. A party of regulars (let\'s say 50x lvl 100 chars) could take down a dragon. How cool wouldn\'t it be if you, all alone, step up to a dragon, spit in it\'s face and slay it all by yourself? That has got to be the most cool experience one can ever get, knowing you\'ve killed a super duper l33t mob all alone. Talk about rights to brag, hmm?

Now, if a couple of these super l33t players ended up in a party, imagine what kind of stuff they could take down. Now, we\'ve always known mages as oh-so-big-and-powerful, however mages aren\'t powerful in most MMORPGs. They\'re stupid and slow, and power quickly fades away when silly warriors can kill demons with a silly sword. But let\'s just imagine that 50 regular mages (let\'s say lvl 500, just for the kick) get together and set out to kill the legendary Obalooba monster. Noone has ever killed it before.... They die. Everyone think \"Damn, that\'s got to be one nasty thing, that Obalooba.\" .. Now, the five best mages in the world decide to kill it, and they do it, and everyone says \"Wow, they\'re the best in the world!\"

... What exactly is the point of all this? Err, maybe it\'s just me, but having people that are insanely powerful creates legends, and idols. I mean, who doesn\'t want to be like that guy who can take down a dragon alone? Who doesn\'t want to be as powerful a mage as one of those 5 that took down the Obalooba?

Removing skill and experience limits really creates RP in so many ways, it\'s just about thinking of these ways, and using them to your own advantage. \"Yeah, but what about those that get bored with lvling?\" ... Your problem? You\'ll just never become the greatest then.

[Kixie]

im WAY too lazy to read this whole post, its full of essay long posts and intricate details that make them very hard to read. therefore ill wing it and express my oppinion on the whole skill thing. There are physics that limit how much a human or any other living thing could pick up. There are strict limits to what the living body (or anything under 400 pounds) could do. I think there should be a max, and in the fun of being a roleplaying game it should be very high. But endukais should have a higher max in agility than a ylian and a kran should hve a higher strength max than a lemur due to the shapes, and physical characteristics of thier bodies. But there should be something cool that gives a huge bonus and allows you to be god like.

Players that complete high level quests, or quests that change the whole world and setting of planeshift should have the ability to be confronted by the gods and given a bonus, depending on how they play, what items they use and what quests they have accomplished. Now this should be ULTRA rare. The whole even would be random except for the fact the player has completed quests and become somewhat famous.

A level 36 user who has done important quests may be confronted by the gods before a level 99 uber strong user is confronted, its all in being in the right place at the right time after completing key quests.

[Ikarsik]

mm lol whemy lazy. but ya all races should be able to have the same agility but like agility does more fore some races than others.

[Kixie]

what??? did you miss that or what? i said some races, due to different body structure should have a higher max than another in some key areas. EG endukais have higher max for agility than ylians...