PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Malfini on November 30, 2006, 12:10:59 pm
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I have noticed that a certain NPC will under a certain circumstance refer to the person talking to them as a "bugger".
I am aware that in many forms of English this word is considered an expletive. The meaning of the word in many contexts is "sodomy", "sodomize", or "sodomite". I thought it would be best to let some GM's or developers that might read this know.
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or you could just take it as you being a bug....
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or you could just take it as you being a bug....
OR you could say the game is promoting the use of bad words.
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or you could just take it as you being a bug....
OR you could say the game is promoting the use of bad words.
Yes, I agree with Janner. The PlaneShift official rules forbid people from using obscene language. The NPC's aren't people obviously, but it seems that this NPC's wording could be a little better.
*Edit*
I saw a new player not too long ago get banned for 7 days for BASICALLY calling someone what a "bugger" is.
This NPC though calls people "bugger"s and before now it seems to have gone unchallenged. ;)
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I saw a new player not too long ago get banned for 7 days for BASICALLY calling someone what a "bugger" is.
I find that highly unlikely, and would like to hear more of the circumstances of the supposed ban as you think it to be. We don't ban players unless they are using obvious offensive language repeatedly, so there is more than likely some misunderstanding there.
I've never heard of "bugger" being an expletive, and have used it myself numerous times to either mean someone annoying, or as synonym to "critter."
Is this nitpicking or do you indeed feel that it's going to cause players' heads to explode in sheer anger?
*edit*
I've also checked the definition from dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bugger&x=0&y=0), and while it appears that there is a vulgar definition, it's not the only definition - and as so far this is the very first instance I hear of "bugger" being offensive, I would hope that you can switch your mentality and go for the other interpretation.
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I saw a new player not too long ago get banned for 7 days for BASICALLY calling someone what a "bugger" is.
I find that highly unlikely, and would like to hear more of the circumstances of the supposed ban as you think it to be. We don't ban players unless they are using obvious offensive language repeatedly, so there is more than likely some misunderstanding there.
I've never heard of "bugger" being an expletive, and have used it myself numerous times to either mean someone annoying, or as synonym to "critter."
Is this nitpicking or do you indeed feel that it's going to cause players' heads to explode in sheer anger?
*edit*
I've also checked the definition from dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bugger&x=0&y=0), and while it appears that there is a vulgar definition, it's not the only definition - and as so far this is the very first instance I hear of "bugger" being offensive, I would hope that you can switch your mentality and go for the other interpretation.
First and foremost, I am a parent, and as such do not approve of bad words, also this is a game that anyone on the net can play, so a little research into names and words, that are going to be used in game please. Second, don't know about you, but will not even let my son [18) use that word or any other word, that could mean a swear word, IT is called teaching your children to behave properly.
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I think this is an over-the-top reaction. I am in no way going to filter "bugger" out of the forums, and as such, I do not expect it to get filtered out in-game. There are plenty of words that anyone from any corner of the world can point to as offensive, but then we'd be filtering out all sorts of things that don't make sense.
"Bugger" is a valid, informal term. If you believe that your children should avoid using it, this is your decision as a parent which I will respect - however, until this word gets children warnings in public school systems and disappears from PG-rated features, I wouldn't expect it to be removed.
Here's a wiki-link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugger) for you to explore.
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I'd also like to point out, that any parent who doesn't let their kid use a word like 'bugger' probably also wouldn't let them play a violent game like PS, unless teaching kids that killing things is a good thing these days. Same for a person who finds it offensive playing. So I also think it's a bit of a over-reaction considering the genre.
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I'd also like to point out, that any parent who doesn't let their kid use a word like 'bugger' probably also wouldn't let them play a violent game like PS, unless teaching kids that killing things is a good thing these days. Same for a person who finds it offensive playing. So I also think it's a bit of a over-reaction considering the genre.
The reason I do not allow my children to use bad words is simple, my in-laws are very devout Christians, and would be horrified if one of my children swore, also from little acorns, a big tree will grow, meaning if you let them get away with little things , they will expand to bigger and more offensive words.
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But violence is ok? :) I respect however you bring up your kids and for whatever reasons, but I think we should do things for the majority rather than the more extreme cases.
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But violence is ok? :) I respect however you bring up your kids and for whatever reasons, but I think we should do things for the majority rather than the more extreme cases.
:innocent: We all need a little outlet.
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First and foremost, I am a parent, and as suck do not approve of bad words,
Just had to laugh at that :lol:
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First and foremost, I am a parent, and as suck do not approve of bad words, also this is a game that anyone on the net can play, so a little research into names and words, that are going to be used in game please. Second, dont know about you, but will not even let my son [18) use that word or any other word, that could mean a swear word, IT is called teaching your children to behave properly.
...
*gets in position...*
*Eublephairs transforms himself in a caring African American mother of 12*
I am a parent, just like janner, and I am very upset by how your game is teaching my children to use inappropriate words. I like janner and the others in this thread never use any obscene word in my house, actually, we use "no" spoken words at all. I was so sick of people cussing, that I forced my children to use sign language and I want all the developers, GM's, and players to start using sign language in the game for the sake of my 12 children, and while you are at, please take away the fighting (what is that teaching anyway?) and remove the breasts from the female characters, my boys stare at them for hours. Please, think of the children...
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Nice one Eublepharis ;)
I personally can't see how anyone could be offended by the word "bugger".
You're bugging me.
That's a bug.
Bugger off.
Yeah, I can see how someone could be offended by that...
/me hands everyone a freshly plucked nitpick.
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And, more importantly than all this!
Toda looks at me odd, I think she's implying something ...
I demand that her eyes be striped away!
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Bug off... Pike off... It is very normal on most RPG games I played... Anyway. Janner... not sure if Christians would approve for their children a game with horny and red skinned creatures called Diaboli :devil:
Another one I would like to ask... I think it is also exaggerated... as it is a word that may have a common meaning in RP-sense:
How can one roleplay a bastard son if the word bastard is censored?
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Bug off... Pike off... It is very normal on most RPG games I played... Anyway. Janner... not sure if Christians would approve for their children a game with horny and red skinned creatures called Diaboli :devil:
Another one I would like to ask... I think it is also exaggerated... as it is a word that may have a common meaning in RP-sense:
How can one roleplay a bastard son if the word bastard is censored?
I don't think anybody wants to roleplay a bugger though. Seperot being the obvious exception <.<
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If we assume that NPCs in game using "bad words" promotes the use of "bad words". Then having PCs in game with names based on alcoholic drinks promotes alcoholism and drinking. Both are probably questionable ideas, at best, considering the children playing the game.
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Even if the connection between drink named characters and alcoholism is a little strained, certainly the number of players portraying drunks or who carry around beer steins in public IS more direct.
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Taking into consideration PlaneShift's genre, it's impossible to get rid of every "questionable" item. I don't believe the game would get a G-rating anyway, and parental guidance seems to be encouraged with young children as far as I have seen. I myself seriously don't understand how drinking in a medieval fantasy game would be more of an issue than murdering other people, but whatever makes your boat float.
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Well... the thing is... it's the context that counts!!!
A "lil' bugger"... doesn't literally mean a little sodomite... it can, in one context refer to a pest, an annoyance... and has been commonly used as such in the English language for a long, long time.
When you see episodes of The Simpsons using phrases such as "p*ssed off" and "b*stard".. and consider it's a family show... bugger seems a minor issue.
If PS was aimed at 5-year-olds... fair enough... but it's not... and almost every kid who is old enough to get to grips with PS and understand how to converse with an NPC will have probably used words much more offensive by themselves!!
Bugger, damn, etc... these are innocuous words...
...and ultimately... if you're offended by the way bugger is used in PS... it just means you are inferring a context that wasn't implied... shame on you and your filthy evil mind!!! ;)
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I have noticed that a certain NPC will under a certain circumstance refer to the person talking to them as a "bugger".
I am aware that in many forms of English this word is considered an expletive. The meaning of the word in many contexts is "sodomy", "sodomize", or "sodomite". I thought it would be best to let some GM's or developers that might read this know.
I've never in my life heard that word interpretted that way. :|
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Welcome to the world Zan, O--) it certainly is used in that regard. It wouldn't be too hard just to change the "u" to an "e", if it is just a generalized insult. That said I am not particularly offended by it.
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I've seen far worse things mentioned in the old testament, than the word "bugger" being used in game.
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I've actually never heard the word bugger used in that way, either. That said, I find all the mockery in this thread excessive and tasteless.
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I've actually never heard the word bugger used in that way, either. That said, I find all the mockery in this thread excessive and tasteless.
Excessive, tasteless, unwelcomed, and unfortunately typical of those committing it.
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This is sheer nit-pickery. Bugger is a PG word and is therefore suitable in a PG game. IIRC, PlaneShift is intended to be PG.
What bothers me is that in certain dialogues with Harnquist, he uses a smiley. This IMO encourages the use of them and OOC talk in general.
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I agree that it is a relatively inoffensive word but I also agree that some of the posts were out of line, Eublepharis' in particular. And what did he mean "gets in position", sounds obscene to me. The term does have unfortunate connotations and would be easily changed. Is it not better to err on the side of angels?
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i feel bad for the devs and gm's. they make a game we can have fun with and not cost us a penny. and people have to nitpick* nice word* everything they disagree with. Just let it go, its a word, words only have as much power as you give them. Stop crying!!!!!!! enjoy what is put out there for us... especially free stuff. if its a problem then dont let your kid play the game. and i believe kids under 16 shouldnt be online to begin with, because when i first got the internet about 8 years ago i did two things. Porn and Music. i was a kid i didnt know. the internet is not a place for kids anyways.... sorry im rambling on off the topic. just deal with it people. if i made this game and someone complained about what i put in it iw ould tell them "then dont play it".
by the way janner... hope all is well with your youngin.
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Bilbous: Angels shouldn't be playing a game where you can kill, steal, get drunk, etc.
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I agree that it is a relatively inoffensive word but I also agree that some of the posts were out of line, Eublepharis' in particular. And what did he mean "gets in position", sounds obscene to me. The term does have unfortunate connotations and would be easily changed. Is it not better to err on the side of angels?
I was thinking more about your post, actually.
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For crying out loud. Learn to use the chat filter and leave the rest of us alone. PS has a build in V-chip.
PS -> Data -> Options -> Chat
<replace bad="bugger" good="whiney little sissy" />
Now do that with every single word you can think of that might be offensive in any corner of the Earth, and maybe Mars as well.
Ingame: Options -> Chat -> incoming filter ON.
So it works.
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From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]:
Bugger \Bug"ger\, n. [F. bougre, fr. LL. Bulgarus, a Bulgarian,
and also a heretic; because the inhabitants of Bulgaria were
infected with heresy. Those guilty of the crime of buggery
were called heretics, because in the eyes of their
adversaries there was nothing more heinous than heresy, and
it was therefore thought that the origin of such a vice could
only be owing to heretics.]
1. One guilty of buggery or unnatural vice; a sodomite.
2. A wretch; -- sometimes used humorously or in playful
disparagement. [Low]
From WordNet (r) 2.0 [wn]:
bugger
n : someone who engages in anal copulation (especially a male
who engages in anal copulation with another male) [syn: {sodomite},
{sodomist}, {sod}]
v : practice anal sex upon [syn: {sodomize}, {sodomise}]
Alright, so if we can call each other "buggers" in PlaneShift can we also call people "sodomites" since that is a synonym? I think the problem here is that some of you have no idea what "bugger" means and you just figured it meant "someone who bugs people". Karyuu as far the person that was banned for a week he said something like "thou fu***est in thee ar*est". He may have done something before that but that is all I witnessed.
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I feel like you are attempting, unsuccessfully, to make a big deal out of nothing. Bugger has several definitions. The NPC in question is not using it in place of "sodomites," therefore that is the wrong synonym and used with the wrong intention. I would advise massive doses of chill pills and a heavy use of your client-side filter ;)
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I have lots of friends who use the word "bugger" and trust me, not a single one of them means it in that sense, Malfini. You really should calm down on this.
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I feel like you are attempting, unsuccessfully, to make a big deal out of nothing. Bugger has several definitions. The NPC in question is not using it in place of "sodomites," therefore that is the wrong synonym and used with the wrong intention. I would advise massive doses of chill pills and a heavy use of your client-side filter ;)
I am not attempting "to make a big deal out of nothing". I was bringing something to peoples attention, but apparently few care or understand.
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Hmmm. A thought has occurred to me. Does the filter filter NPC words?
*edit* someone replace Bugger with cheese and get back to me.
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lol what a bunch of "buggers" picking this word apart.. get over it.. grow up! you can turn on simpsons and hear bugger... if the word offends you, do like UTM and change it.. stop harassing the devs!!! they give you a great free game!!!!!!!! grrrr you people, i hope your american because i would hate to see foriegners being so darn sensitive.
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Alright, so if we can call each other "buggers" in PlaneShift can we also call people "sodomites" since that is a synonym?
Sodomite is not a synonym of bugger unless you're taken it upon yourself to be obnoxiously silly.
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Sodomite is not a synonym of bugger unless you're taken it upon yourself to be obnoxiously silly.
Several dictionaries I have looked at seem to say otherwise Zanzibar.
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bug‧ger1 /ˈbʌgər, ˈbʊg-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[buhg-er, boog-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. Informal. a fellow or lad (used affectionately or abusively): a cute little bugger.
2. Informal. any object or thing.
3. Often Vulgar. a sodomite.
4. Chiefly British Slang.
a. a despicable or contemptible person, esp. a man.
b. an annoying or troublesome thing, situation, etc.
–verb (used with object)
5. Often Vulgar. to sodomize.
6. Slang. damn: Bugger the cost—I want the best.
7. Chiefly British Slang. to trick, deceive, or take advantage of.
—Verb phrases
8. bugger up, Chiefly British Slang. to ruin; spoil; botch.
9. bugger off, Chiefly British Slang. to depart; bug off.
will people complain if people use the word: "sod"????
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Bugger
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bugger is an expletive used in vernacular British English, South African English, Australian English, New Zealand English and Sri Lankan English. When used in context it still retains its original meaning, implying sodomy (see buggery).
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Several sources I have looked at say that "bugger" is also a legitimate informal term, as shown by Miadon :] We can go back and forth - I'm not posting in this thread to change your opinions, Malfini and Janner, but to explain that you are using "bugger" as a very outdated expletive, which has lost any vulgar meaning in the modern world and "gained" several other definitions. Again, the NPC in question is not using it to mean "sodomite," so all your arguments are ultimately, completely moot.
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If you want to have a good laugh have a look at this: toyota ad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p64yUG3VAVE) It is an Australian truck ad. It is also topical.
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Just to point out something..
bug‧ger1 /ˈbʌgər, ˈbʊg-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[buhg-er, boog-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. Informal. a fellow or lad (used affectionately or abusively): a cute little bugger. This is the context it is used in yes?
2. Informal. any object or thing.
3. Often Vulgar. a sodomite. Not always and the only real bad meaning here? Very outdated use for it though...
4. Chiefly British Slang.
a. a despicable or contemptible person, esp. a man.
b. an annoying or troublesome thing, situation, etc.
–verb (used with object)
5. Often Vulgar. to sodomize.
6. Slang. damn: Bugger the cost—I want the best.
7. Chiefly British Slang. to trick, deceive, or take advantage of.
—Verb phrases
8. bugger up, Chiefly British Slang. to ruin; spoil; botch.
9. bugger off, Chiefly British Slang. to depart; bug off.
This is a rather futile argument. There are many words with more than one meaning if your mind finds the worst in them, then do not assume everyone else will too. I did not even know it had more meaning than that first line, if any child that reads it and sees more in it than that and if they even know what sodomize means then I think they are informed enough to realize in which context the word is being used in.
*Edit* Thank you Miadon :P :flowers:
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I had to change my guilds name from "Elite Guard" not too long ago because a GM was telling me that the name "Elite Guard" was used in another game. I know for a FACT that the term "Elite Guard" is used in countless places all over the world to simply describe a military force that is very good. I see things like the refusal to confess that "bugger" should be a changed because it means "sodomy", as a double-standard. I have seen people picked on for much less than saying "bugger". It seems like it is just too easy to pick on a player but when a player recommends that a NPC in the game be modified slightly because it may be offensive to others they are said to be starting trouble. When I first made this thread I was expecting a little more support/agreement from GM's/developers, but apparently I was incorrect to expect that.
*Edit*
Xordan says this game uses UK English and I know that in the UK (Where Janner is from) the word bugger in many contexts means a "sodomite" etc.. Kiraki, you're right that dictionary is bad, so why are you posting it on here?
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to quite simply show different defintions.
and I'm from the UK and 98% of the time I hear people use the word "bugger" or "sod" they mean it in the "damn it" or "that damn annoying person". Altough it is probably an age gap, words considered semi-rude 50 years ago and not so now.
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So just to be clear. Do we have official permission to go around in the game calling each other buggers, telling people to bugger off etc and we won't get dinged for being OOC or using abusive language?
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to quite simply show different defintions.
and I'm from the UK and 98% of the time I hear people use the word "bugger" or "sod" they mean it in the "damn it" or "that damn annoying person". Altough it is probably an age gap, words considered semi-rude 50 years ago and not so now.
People in the USA will also say say F**k without trying to refer to sexual intercourse, but that doesn't mean that it is an acceptable word.
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So just to be clear. Do we have official permission to go around in the game calling each other buggers, telling people to bugger off etc and we won't get dinged for being OOC or using abusive language?
All the permission you need. No matter how hard people may try to poke at this, it's simply not an offensive word anymore and to spend so much energy trying to get this changed seems silly.
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Sodomite is not a synonym of bugger unless you're taken it upon yourself to be obnoxiously silly.
Several dictionaries I have looked at seem to say otherwise Zanzibar.
Stop swearing at me!
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This is very funny. And very unnecessary. We are not talking about a major rewrite of the game's code. We're not even talking about changing the whole NPC dialog. We're talking about the difference that one letter could make. Changing the 'u' to an 'e' in the NPC dialog could be done in less than a minutes work, and would save the possibility of someone being offended or having their children exposed to language that *is still* considered offensive in many parts of the world.
Karyuu, since you've decided to adopt the position of judge in this debate, I'll address this to you. I asked my mother, my two brothers, my sister, and 3 friends what the word 'bugger' meant to them. All of them answered that it was as a synonym for the word 'sodomite', or words to that effect. As for your statement that the NPC doesn't mean it in that context, how do you know? Does the NPC state that somewhere? If he did, then that would be an important piece of information that was left out of this discussion. If he didn't, then you are merely offering us *your* interpretation of what the NPC said. And I can pretty much guarantee that your interpretation is not that of the entire world, unless you made the effort to offer a world-wide poll on the subject.
This is a question of morality, or immorality, as the case may be. The word *is* considered vulgar in many parts of the world, not just Britain. And it seems to me that, if players can get banned for using foul language or harassing other players, even the possibility of an NPC using a word that can be considered vulgar in anyway should not be allowed. Otherwise, the rule against foul language is hypocritical, as somewhere, sometime, a person is going to read it and be offended. If you're going to take a stance against being offensive, then don't play at it. Do it!
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I have noticed that a certain NPC will under a certain circumstance refer to the person talking to them as a "bugger".
I am aware that in many forms of English this word is considered an expletive. The meaning of the word in many contexts is "sodomy", "sodomize", or "sodomite". I thought it would be best to let some GM's or developers that might read this know.
This is destructive to the game, picking apart little things that don't need change.
Whereas I'd Like all races to have a city.
I saw a Similar thread of a person wanting to change the Art of the Ylian, especially a small sliver of a blonde mustace over the brown one.
Guys this is nitpicking, nock it off, I want to see this game develop quickly and efficiently.
Pointing out stupid things like this only hinders progress.
~~Datruth
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As for your statement that the NPC doesn't mean it in that context, how do you know?
Being on the dev team often makes such things clear. Moreover, if you cannot understand that the NPC is not trying to call anyone a "sodomite," it's really your problem at this point and I'm going to sit here and shake my head at you :)
I find this entire thread quite stupid, and I'm not worried about admitting it.
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Thank you Ginorey!! I am so happy that you see how easy it would be to simply change that one word the NPC says. I was trying to tell the developers that some people may find that one word offensive and I figured they could change it easily. I don't know why so many people aren't happy that I cared enough about other peoples enjoyment of the game to bring this to their attention.
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As for your statement that the NPC doesn't mean it in that context, how do you know?
Being on the dev team often makes such things clear. Moreover, if you cannot understand that the NPC is not trying to call anyone a "sodomite," it's really your problem at this point and I'm going to sit here and shake my head at you :)
I find this entire thread quite stupid, and I'm not worried about admitting it.
I thought i'd never say this but i agree with you.
If you gave them the option of Having another City built, or fixing this, they'd choose the city in a heartbeat.
Yet They don't understand nitpicking at stupid things like this, HINDERS people from finishing the city.
Today it's this word, tommorow fix ups on the Art, slight changes.(Only 4 minutes each)
The next day other things, like the grass.
This is B.S and everyone knows it, If you're affended by the Word Bugger, UNDERSTAND A ROBOT JUST SAID IT TO YOU, not a Person.
A PIECE OF code, Numbers, 1's and 0's if you get to the heart of it.
~~Datruth
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Malfini: Maybe because the developers see your level of "attention" as excessive and unnecessary? Are you actually offended at this personally, or have you met other people who have been outraged at this term coming from an NPC? You seem unnecessarily worried about something I have never encountered from other people, and I see this level of nitpicking as petty and "I just need something to complain about."
I'm with the great majority here when I say that I don't give a damn about this word being used, and if anyone actually knows that the word can also mean "sodomite," they are old enough to understand the proper context.
Now bugger off ;)
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Since we're being fun and nitpicking things........where's the darn toilets at!!!!! My menki has to pee.
:innocent:
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Since we're being fun and nitpicking things........where's the darn toilets at!!!!! My menki has to pee.
:innocent:
Hydlaa Square, Next to the big statue you can't miss it. ;D
Don't worry it filters itself.... after the rains..... :lol: :woot:
~~Datruth
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ok for you nitpickers do this.. it will keep you busy. its supposed to be midevil times right? so find out when bugger was first used as a derogitory [sp?] word. then see if the word was even used in midevil times. then post your answers
then realize it doesnt matter because it is a free game.
[seriously tho someone look it up i wanna know]
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As for your statement that the NPC doesn't mean it in that context, how do you know?
Being on the dev team often makes such things clear. Moreover, if you cannot understand that the NPC is not trying to call anyone a "sodomite," it's really your problem at this point and I'm going to sit here and shake my head at you :)
I find this entire thread quite stupid, and I'm not worried about admitting it.
Here we go again. Another missed point to explain. I'm not talking about my opinion. I personally don't care about the word being used. I can cuss like a sailor (because I was one, for one thing.) But I don't. No matter how mad I've gotten at some of the things done and said in this game, I haven't once used a swear word to express my contempt or disdain. And it's not because I respect your rules or anything else. It's because I care about offending other people.
It is the rest of the population of the world that I care about. That is a grand scale, I know. But we already have players from many, many countries playing this game. And this game has the possibility of reaching a grand scale, which I am truly hoping for and is one of the reasons I came back to it. It has the possibility of reaching a very large audience. And if one person - actually, I can't start that way. One person has already been offended by it. More than one person has been offended by it. When your audience gets larger, more will be offended by it. The odds are in my favor on that.
And, as Malfini and I have already stated, it is not a major change to be made.
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Several sources I have looked at say that "bugger" is also a legitimate informal term, as shown by Miadon :] We can go back and forth - I'm not posting in this thread to change your opinions, Malfini and Janner, but to explain that you are using "bugger" as a very outdated expletive, which has lost any vulgar meaning in the modern world and "gained" several other definitions. Again, the NPC in question is not using it to mean "sodomite," so all your arguments are ultimately, completely moot.
Going by your logic gained buy HOW many years as a adult? present day swear words will be outdated in a few years, so you have opened up the door to the use of them now, as in a few years time they will be out of date.
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Today it's this word, tommorow fix ups on the Art, slight changes.(Only 4 minutes each)
The next day other things, like the grass.
This is B.S and everyone knows it, If you're affended by the Word Bugger, UNDERSTAND A ROBOT JUST SAID IT TO YOU, not a Person.
~~Datruth
Datruth, I haven't noticed any artwork that could be considered offensive in this game. Nor have I seen any grass that could be considered offensive. So those examples are not in context with the current debate.
As for this being B.S. and everyone knowing it, this is untrue. If it was, this thread would not have been started in the first place.
As for your declaration that 'A ROBOT' said it to me, consider that this is supposed to be an emulation of an existing, persistent, medieval world. You are expected to talk to NPCs as if they were real people. Indeed, in many instances the NPCs will not even respond to you unless you use the correct sentence. So if you are supposed to treat the NPCs like real people, there responses are meant to be as from a real person. And since I'm not allowed to swear in this game, according to the rules and my own personal consideration, I'd expect the NPCs to be just as considerate and follow the same rules.
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Are people in modern times offended by the word "bugger"? Isn't it a medieval term?
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present day swear words will be outdated in a few years, so you have opened up the door to the use of them now, as in a few years time they will be out of date.
I don't know what "logic" the poster Karyuu used (seemed more like an explanation of facts), but your piece above looks to be of the nonsensical kind. The word "bugger" is no longer used as a swear word in the great majority of the word, and that's why it's not a big deal. Except of course to the people who evidently like waving their arms in supposed concern for the rest of the world.
I find this absolutely laughable, that there are people in here who seem to find such great offense with something so trivial. Grow a backbone :)
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This page is from the present-day BBC. May I call your attention to part 3, in the section titled 'Offensive Language/Gestures'.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/delivery/edguidance.shtml
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To settle this:
1) Bugger these days is not a swear or even a cuss word. I here kids in elementary school (not lieing here) use sh*t and F*** all the time. bugger is simply not a bad word. Yes, language does evolve and this word has done so.
2) If you are offended than don't play. Simply put. It is YOUR choice to play. If you are upset, disagree, yadada, dont play.
3) This is a select case where most people coudln't care less. If a game dev changed every little thing everyone said annoyed them or would improve the game, the server would be down 95% of the time.
4) as an adult, I would think that you have had enough time to learn complaining gets you know where in life. If you have an issue like this, go to iirc or pm the devs about it. Don't complain on community threads. And no, the world does not revolve around you just incase you happen to believe that (not saying you do, but just making sure you know).
I think that covers just about all of it.
Someone pls lock this thread.
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This page is from the present-day BBC. May I call your attention to part 3, in the section titled 'Offensive Language/Gestures'.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/delivery/edguidance.shtml
That is an extremely helpful link Ginorey :D. It seems the British Broadcasting Corporation does consider "bugger" an offensive word after all. Since this game *supposedly* uses British English, you would think that this would be apparent.
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/me adds a couple of other buggers to the NPCs. h0h0h0
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hmm..just to chime in in a way that may (hopefully) clear things up a little, i have just sat and read five pages of a thread about this subject. nowhere has the line been given so that others may actually see the context in which the word is used.
i personally have used this word as an expletive, and often i'm a bit ashamed to say. i'm an american and even /i/ know what this word means. all the other definitions that have been give are informal only by virtue of the word's usage for so long.
if the devs don't want to change it, fine. that's their right. it is a slightly minor thing, as was stated in the initial post, "under certain circumstances" this word is used.
it also occurs that i never bothered to sit down and actually /count/ how many times that word has been used in this very thread (discounting the dictionary entries that were meant to be helpful).
call me silly if you like, as i care not if it is removed. but it seems to bother some people, and rightly so. the devs have been made aware. this thread has served its purpose :)
~Shauri Zann, concerned mother of a nine-year-old ;)
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And we shouldn't use "black man" when referring to a Diaboli male either, because that's just not proper these days, right? :) Wouldn't want to offend anyone who takes games way too seriously after all.
Relax, folks. Life is way too short to make a fuss out of something so itty-bitty eentsy-weentsy. I'm not filtering this word out of the forums until kids get sent out of class for using it in schools, and so I don't think we'll be changing anything in-game. The devs are aware of this thread, as Shauri pointed out, and are aware of all the arguments. If nothing gets changed, don't storm around with pitchforks and torches.
*edited for the post below*
Now you're just repeating things... ;)
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Someone expressed an interest in the etymology of the word in question here. From http://www.geocities.com/bogomil1bg/Buggerstudy.html:
As was already mentioned, in the next century The Oxford English Dictionary marked the connection "bougres/buggers" or "heretics who came from Bulgaria in the 11th century" with "Albigenses" (Cathars). It is also pointed out that, according to R. Brunne Cron. of 1330, "bugger" entered the English language with the double meaning of sodomite and heretic: "þe Kyng said & did crie, þe pape was heretike... and lyued in bugerie".
And I consider myself done with this thread.
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hmm..just to chime in in a way that may (hopefully) clear things up a little, i have just sat and read five pages of a thread about this subject. nowhere has the line been given so that others may actually see the context in which the word is used.
i personally have used this word as an expletive, and often i'm a bit ashamed to say. i'm an american and even /i/ know what this word means. all the other definitions that have been give are informal only by virtue of the word's usage for so long.
if the devs don't want to change it, fine. that's their right. it is a slightly minor thing, as was stated in the initial post, "under certain circumstances" this word is used.
it also occurs that i never bothered to sit down and actually /count/ how many times that word has been used in this very thread (discounting the dictionary entries that were meant to be helpful).
call me silly if you like, as i care not if it is removed. but it seems to bother some people, and rightly so. the devs have been made aware. this thread has served its purpose :)
~Shauri Zann, concerned mother of a nine-year-old ;)
When I made this thread, I thought the developers would understand. I didn't think we would all argue for 5 pages or more. The fact of the matter is that the word could offend some people and it seems incredibly easy to remedy. I don't know why it is taking so much time to talk common sense to people. It is very disappointing. If the developers don't want to take out a word that could very easily be interpreted as the NPC calling you a "sodomite" that is their choice, indeed.
Ginorey don't forget that the Catholic church accused the "heretical group" of performing sodomy. That is how it came to be known as meaning "sodomy" to begin with.
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Which NPC is it anyway?
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Which NPC is it anyway?
Raithen says it.
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Personally I think it is just a symptom of a different problem. As I have said I don't care much about the word as I use stronger language in real life. But if I was a real nasty warrior in a medieval setting and some townsperson called me a nasty name because they were too ignorant to try to make out my accent they would be dead or at least completely buggered up regardless of the consequences. Far from getting me killed it would likely get me a job with the local lord.
The npc's tend to be rude in a way that is annoying when you try to talk to them. The way these things get defended it almost seems to be intentional. Of course you can't kill the npc's or teach them respect.
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When I made this thread, I thought the developers would understand. I didn't think we would all argue for 5 pages or more. The fact of the matter is that the word could offend some people and it seems incredibly easy to remedy. I don't know why it is taking so much time to talk common sense to people. It is very disappointing. If the developers don't want to take out a word that could very easily be interpreted as the NPC calling you a "sodomite" that is their choice, indeed.
Ginorey don't forget that the Catholic church accused the "heretical group" of performing sodomy. That is how it came to be known as meaning "sodomy" to begin with.
just for grins, Malfini could you please PM me with the line? i would be very interested to see the word in the same context that you did. it would really clear things up, at least for me.
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I still have failed to notice a single person in this thread who has been personally offended. I would say that you need to stop worrying so much about "what others possibly maybe might one day take offense with."
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"You want something to do? Go and tell Polyuntri Stevald I sent you. He's taking care of buggers like you."
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Yes, that is it. I could have posted it myself, but I was not sure whether it would be considered a spoiler. For all we know though that could mean Raithen thinks people are trying to rape him, so he sends people like that to Polyuntri Stevald so he can take care of them. ;)
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*smiles* hence why i asked to get it in a PM, but thank you Xordan. i can now see quite clearly why this would bother some people. it /is/ quite the equivilant of calling someone a m**** f**** or similar. again, however, i'm grown and i can deal with it for myself, but can also understand and sympathise with those who /could/ find it offensive.
perhaps seeing it in it's context will demonstrate more clearly Malfini's concerns to the other posters who seem to find this debate silly or nit-picking. it is not.
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Nope, still silly nitpicking ;)
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I passed on the message to settings about changing it to something more feathery for the sensitive, but they can't change it right now. I'll ask Talad if I can remember, and if he has time. So it might get changed soon(tm), maybe.
And no Shauri, it's not the equivalent of calling something that. It wouldn't even cross my mind that it might be offensive. But then, I don't let myself get offended by mere words, especially things that might refer to something which is naturally found (tell all the wild animals that practice it that it isn't).
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This page is from the present-day BBC. May I call your attention to part 3, in the section titled 'Offensive Language/Gestures'.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/delivery/edguidance.shtml
Irrelevant. Ethnographic research present in this community trumps reference provided above. Further, the context the word is used in clearly shows that it isn't being used to mean "sodomite". Further, the BBC is ultrasensitive to offending anyone, and is therefore not a good standard to measure by.
If you can't stand to have the word "bugger" in a game, then you probably shouldn't watch tv, listen to the radio, or read literature of any sort. I'd also advise against going outside or having relatives visit you.
When I made this thread, I thought the developers would understand. I didn't think we would all argue for 5 pages or more. The fact of the matter is that the word could offend some people and it seems incredibly easy to remedy.
1. People understand. They just don't agree.
2. The easy remedy is to use the chat filters included in the game. The solution to the problem is already there.
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This page is from the present-day BBC. May I call your attention to part 3, in the section titled 'Offensive Language/Gestures'.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/delivery/edguidance.shtml
Irrelevant. Ethnographic research present in this community trumps reference provided above. Further, BBC is ultrasensitive to offending anyone, and is therefore not a good comparison. If you can't stand to have the word "bugger" in a game, then you probably shouldn't watch tv, listen to the radio, or read literature of any sort. I'd also advise against going outside or having relatives visit you.
Ethnographic research? So you've polled the entire PS community on this and have the results sorted out by race or place of origin? I can only assume this is what you meant by that phrase, since ethnography is the study of human cultures. I would be interested in seeing the results of this research of yours. Next time you see me on IRC, could you do me the great favor of sending me a copy?
As far as the rest of your post, I've heard the word before in the media, but in the phrase 'little bugger', not 'buggers like you.' And I've read the term many times in different forms of literature. But this is all moot, because (and I hope this is the last time I have to state this) I don't personally care about the word at all. What I care about is that other people might take it as objectional or offensive. Am I clear on that now? Or do I have to put it in bold letters for you?
And, by the way, I can certainly assure you that I know more about what my relatives would say to me than you do. So let's leave them out of it, shall we?
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People might find "Diaboli" offensive. We should get rid of them just in case, so that no one will complain in the future. Because you never know, and you have to be super careful.
:thumbup:
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This page is from the present-day BBC. May I call your attention to part 3, in the section titled 'Offensive Language/Gestures'.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/delivery/edguidance.shtml
Irrelevant. Ethnographic research present in this community trumps reference provided above. Further, BBC is ultrasensitive to offending anyone, and is therefore not a good comparison. If you can't stand to have the word "bugger" in a game, then you probably shouldn't watch tv, listen to the radio, or read literature of any sort. I'd also advise against going outside or having relatives visit you.
Ethnographic research? So you've polled the entire PS community on this and have the results sorted out by race or place of origin? I can only assume this is what you meant by that phrase, since ethnography is the study of human cultures. I would be interested in seeing the results of this research of yours. Next time you see me on IRC, could you do me the great favor of sending me a copy?
As far as the rest of your post, I've heard the word before in the media, but in the phrase 'little bugger', not 'buggers like you.' And I've read the term many times in different forms of literature. But this is all moot, because (and I hope this is the last time I have to state this) I don't personally care about the word at all. What I care about is that other people might take it as objectional or offensive. Am I clear on that now? Or do I have to put it in bold letters for you?
And, by the way, I can certainly assure you that I know more about what my relatives would say to me than you do. So let's leave them out of it, shall we?
Polling is not typical of ethnographic research, let alone comprehensive polling. Further, even if we were practicing positivist research methods, we would only need a representitive sample in order to make judgements about the community as a whole.
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When I made this thread, I thought the developers would understand. I didn't think we would all argue for 5 pages or more. The fact of the matter is that the word could offend some people and it seems incredibly easy to remedy.
1. People understand. They just don't agree.
2. The easy remedy is to use the chat filters included in the game. The solution to the problem is already there.
1. From reading some of the posts in this thread, I could tell that some people didn't understand.
2. That isn't a very good solution because anyone who would want to change it would have to individually modify a file to change it themselves. Not everyone will know how to do this and if some people attempt this they may even break some functionality or render their client unusable. This would just present more people in need of technical assistance.
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No, I see that people did understand - they just didn't agree with your "This is the dominate definition" viewpoint. Zanzibar is absolutely correct, and "understanding" never has to mean "agreeing."
It's ridiculously easy to modify your filter and add new terms. I definitely would hate to see the dev team add every little word to the official filter that anyone would post up as "inappropriate" in their circle of friends or family. If any player reports me in-game for calling them a bugger, I'm going to happily laugh in their face because they are being children instead of trying to somehow protect them.
I tsk in your general direction.
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That isn't a very good solution because anyone who would want to change it would have to individually modify a file to change it themselves. Not everyone will know how to do this and if some people attempt this they may even break some functionality or render their client unusable. This would just present more people in need of technical assistance.
It's the perfect solution because it's easy to modify the file and once you're in you can make any changes you want. The chat filter can be personally customised to exactly meet your individual requirements.
I don't think it's fair to place the responsibility of protecting your children onto the shoulders of the PS developement team. They've done a heck of a lot to keep the game kid-safe, and they continue to moderate what happens both in game and out of game as if ten year olds are watching. Even then, there's the PG warning. "Bugger", in the context it's being used, is definately G rated.
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Well I watch TV and I agree many words are used there that you might not agree are always apropriate but bugger being one of them?
Its one of those words I imagine the big evil guy in a kiddy show using to atleast give him the impression of actually being somewhat evil.
I also seriously doubt anyone would be offended by the word. It's not like words like that are used often and think anyone who would know that it also has a different meaning would also know it's nearly impossible it is used in that context.
Personally I do agree Karyuu as a Dev might have looked at it more seriously if perhaps it indeed is used differently in other countries specially with so many english speaking countries out there like England, Schotland, Ireland, Canada, Australia, the US and others I'm sure there are. However I also agree fullheartedly with her decicion that anyone playing this game should have the commonsence to know in what context the word is used.
Specially seeing what kind of swearwords are being used in the media on primetime that I am sure most of you will allow your kids to watch by the time they are old enough to play PS this is a rather pointless discusion
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Shakilai for YOU and ME it is ridiculously easy to modify the filter. Not everyone is as computer savvy. Some people will use Windows on their PC everyday and won't even know what Windows is. Believe it or not there are a lot of people like this.
I know there would be plenty of people who would find some way, some how to mess up their client when trying to modify the XML file PlaneShift\data\options\chat_def.xml. They would then either ask for help in the help channel or in the forums.
I think it is fairly safe to assume that most people will not modify their chat files before finding a problem with them anyways. Your solution is even more complicated than the developers globally changing that one word that Raithen says by modifying a NPC dialogue/quest file.
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(I'm not on the Settings team, Garile, and as such it's not my job to write quest dialogs or check them for approval :} Frankly having our team check every single word just in case somewhere in the world there are people considering it offensive would be a big waste of time - "bugger" was used completely innocently, and validly; it has several definitions. That people choose to see it as vulgar is not our aim, and not our fault. "Get with the times" comes to mind :P)
Looks like Xordan will be trying to get it changed to appease those with sensitive eyes and ears, so people can relax now. However, don't report players who choose to call you a "bugger" with innocent intentions. That would be a serious waste of GM time and would make me very angry at you :) kthx.
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Shakilai for YOU and ME it is ridiculously easy to modify the filter. Not everyone is as computer savvy. Some people will use Windows on their PC everyday and won't even know what Windows is. Believe it or not there are a lot of people like this.
As far as I have seen, these types don't survive well in a game considered by many to still be a "tech demo." If they can't open an XML file in notepad and follow the structure there to add a word to the filter, they're not going to file bug reports, help with technical issues, and etc. In the future I hope adding a word to the filter can be done in-game and with a click of a button, and perhaps this is all we really need - to make the filter that modifiable.
They would then either ask for help in the help channel or in the forums.
I'm not seeing people stepping on newbies asking for help here. You make it sound so horrible :)
I think it is fairly safe to assume that most people will not modify their chat files before finding a problem with them anyways. Your solution is even more complicated than the developers globally changing that one word that Raithen says by modifying an NPC dialogue/quest file.
Do you expect to get it filtered out of the forum too?
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(I'm not on the Settings team, Garile, and as such it's not my job to write quest dialogs or check them for approval :} Frankly having our team check every single word just in case somewhere in the world there are people considering it offensive would be a big waste of time - "bugger" was used completely innocently, and validly; it has several definitions. That people choose to see it as vulgar is not our aim, and not our fault. "Get with the times" comes to mind :P)
Looks like Xordan will be trying to get it changed to appease those with sensitive eyes and ears, so people can relax now. However, don't report players who choose to call you a "bugger" with innocent intentions. That would be a serious waste of GM time and would make me very angry at you :) kthx.
Shakilai, Karyuu already said that Xordan will be trying to get it changed. Why continue to argue then?
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Because I find the change to be unnecessary and silly :) Well, and for the sake of the discussion. I am curious as to how far you want to take this: do you want to see "bugger" removed from the game entirely, and have players receive warnings for using that word? Should it go onto the official censor list? Do you want it erradicated from PlaneShift forever?
Genuine questions.
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All I want right now is for Raithen to stop calling everyone a "bugger". :)
If he won't stop disrespecting us like that; the least we should be able to do is fight him. ;)
*Edit*
I'm just one of the people who know what "bugger" means. I figured for an international game that it might be best for the NPC's not to call people "buggers".
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All I want right now is for Raithen to stop calling everyone a "bugger". :)
If he won't stop disrespecting us like that; the least we should be able to do is fight him. ;)
So if someone uses an innocent term to call you a nuisance while helping you find work, your reaction is to kill them? Get help.
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All I want right now is for Raithen to stop calling everyone a "bugger". :)
If he won't stop disrespecting us like that; the least we should be able to do is fight him. ;)
So if someone uses an innocent term to call you a nuisance while helping you find work, your reaction is to kill them? Get help.
Yes Zanzibar I would kill Raithen. I wouldn't kill a person in real life though. In real life I'm also not a Ylian warrior who has killed thousands of monsters either. ;)
*Edit*
I have already voiced my concerns about the word "bugger". Please read all 7 pages before asking more questions.
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That says a lot about your character though, that you'd kill someone for a single word that was never meant to offend in the first place. People tend to stay away from individuals like that when they're walking down a street.
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... If things continues this way... soon the neocons will complain that Klyros are naked, that Krans have their butts naked and the list will grow enough to make the game development lasts forever. Wonderful how these guys mind about "bugger" but don't mind about diabolis, people roleplaying robbers, thieves, assassins, psychopaths and about the indiscriminate killing of human and sentient NPCs just because they are gladiators or mercenaries.
If you are worried about "bugger" when 10 yrs old boys says "%($@ you", then you should pray not play. It starts from here... Soon female characters will use burgas... human drawings will be forbidden ... and magic will be banished from gameplay as it is considered demonic... X-/ Hope the devs don't waste their precious time with such insignificance... Anyway I thought these kind of people considered RPG satanic...
There are games for children, and this game would get ridiculously simple if it was developed as a game for children. I think in most cases only 14 yrs old or higher may have enough maturity to roleplay a character(and I'm being optimistic). This game is simply too complex for children to waste time to guarantee a "for all ages" rating for it...(Just my opinion... as most of good roleplayers I've seen in game are usually old teenagers(around 16-18) or older ). In my opinion, this game should focus on the adult public, because it is be heavily RP-oriented and youger ones usually prefer less serious MMO(RP?)Gs (And about children seeing the game... There are things on TV much worser than "bugger". One should know about allowing or not to let children see him playing, or watching his favorite channel)
P.S. : I don't intend to offend no one. This is my opinion on the "for all ages" stuff of PS.
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That says a lot about your character though, that you'd kill someone for a single word that was never meant to offend in the first place. People tend to stay away from individuals like that when they're walking down a street.
Karyuu, come on... have you seriously never wanted to kill a NPC in the game? I find that far too hard to believe. To be fair though Malfini helps people a lot. When a NPC calls Malfini a "bugger" he will become offended though since Malfini knows what that means.
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No, actually my character is more of the sane sort that doesn't feel like killing anyone who throws an insulting word her way. I think you're taking it OOCly.
Moreover, I don't think your character can at all know what the other definition of "bugger" is, since as you have pointed out it has such OOC origins. It's not about being a pacifist - my character is a hunter - but about the difference between killing someone who say, murdered your family, and killing someone who said a single word to you you didn't like. In real life you would pray to God that such a person would get locked away. It's no different in the game.
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No, actually my character is more of the sane sort that doesn't feel like killing anyone who throws an insulting word her way. I think you're taking it OOCly.
So you roleplay differently. Your character sounds more like a pacifist. Congratulations...
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So I guess you won't mind if someone calls you queer? They might mean you are questionable or suspicious or just plain odd. What about gay? Are you a happy fellow? I do not mean to suggest anything about anyone personally, I am just giving examples of innocent words that have similarly unpleasant meanings.
Are these words banned too? I do not know. Certainly there are usages that should be proscribed.
In a heated moment people tend to use the strongest words they think they can get away with. Someone can call me a bugger all they want but if they are someone I feel is antipathetic to me I am going to assume they mean the worst sense of the word knowing all the while that they can claim to mean the least offensive sense of the term to get away with it.
By the way to bug someone is also a slang word a bug is an insect, a noun not a verb
Well casual search doesn't prove or disprove this notion but I think it is probably the correct origin of that meaning of bug.
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bug·ger
(1)Vulgar Slang. A sodomite.
(2)Slang. A contemptible or disreputable person.
(3)Slang. A fellow; a chap: “He's a silly little bugger, then” (John le Carré).
(4)To practice sodomy with.
(5)To damn.
If Malfini is offended he has every right to be. This is what it means to some parts of the world. I know that on poker.com they censor the word. So you guys, quit picking on him. He isn't being childish and he is only trying to communicate how much this word bothers him.
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bug·ger
(1)Vulgar Slang. A sodomite.
(2)Slang. A contemptible or disreputable person.
(3)Slang. A fellow; a chap: “He's a silly little bugger, then” (John le Carré).
(4)To practice sodomy with.
(5)To damn.
If Malfini is offended he has every right to be. This is what it means to some parts of the world. I know that on poker.com they censor the word. So you guys, quit picking on him. He isn't being childish and he is only trying to communicate how much this word bothers him.
I very much appreciate your assistance Akaye :D. I was trying to help by bringing the meaning of the word to GM/Developer attention. Unfortunately It seems like too many people would rather insult me, than read what is in front of their face.
*Edit*
Karyuu already said that Xordan will try to get the word changed.
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Oh just filter the word, anybody who isn't offended by such words can simply just turn the filter off.
Honestly, I never got this whole shielding children from "bad words" thing comes from. To be frank, your kids all swear like sailors from right around kindergarden on. Probably more so than adults quite simply because it's something that's new, against the rules, and therefor interesting. This part is just my opinion though.
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Oh just filter the word, anybody who isn't offended by such words can simply just turn the filter off.
Honestly, I never got this whole shielding children from "bad words" thing comes from. To be frank, your kids all swear like sailors from right around kindergarden on. Probably more so than adults quite simply because it's something that's new, against the rules, and therefor interesting. This part is just my opinion though.
not everyone knows that there is a filter and how to use it.
Maybe Malfini is overreacting, maybe he's not... I think it's easy to say it doesn't need to get filtered out when you see it from your point of view... I don't think that the minority of players who finds this word offencive (10% maybe) should be abused, replacing it with a snonym which was described before (like pest) would be an easy solution.
And in case you wonder, I learned something new today... bugger also means sodomite
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Honestly, I never got this whole shielding children from "bad words" thing comes from. To be frank, your kids all swear like sailors from right around kindergarden on.
To be frank, ummmmm ... no. My child has decided that she doesn't need to swear. If your child is swearing by kindergarden then you as a parent have to take responsibility and look at the example your setting. Obviously not a good one because the child will be showing your characteristics. After all they do learn from their parents. Children rebel against rules and their parents .... but that is more toward their teen years when they are developing into adults and finding their own voice. They shouldn't be displaying behavior like swearing in the early stages of their childhood. That suggests the child is in a bad situation and maybe his care givers are not paying enough attention to their behavior or the harmful affects on the child.
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Honestly, I never got this whole shielding children from "bad words" thing comes from. To be frank, your kids all swear like sailors from right around kindergarden on.
To be frank, ummmmm ... no. My child has decided that she doesn't need to swear. If your child is swearing by kindergarden then you as a parent have to take responsibility and look at the example your setting. Obviously not a good one because the child will be showing your characteristics. After all they do learn from their parents. Children rebel against rules and their parents .... but that is more toward their teen years when they are developing into adults and finding their own voice. They shouldn't be displaying behavior like swearing in the early stages of their childhood. That suggests the child is in a bad situation and maybe his care givers are not paying enough attention to their behavior or the harmful affects on the child.
Or that he just talks a different way
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Or that he just talks a different way
Let me get this striaght ..... your saying it is ok for a five year old in kindergarden to walk up to another five year old and say F*** off? And just accept it as he talks a different way?
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Or that he just talks a different way
Let me get this striaght ..... your saying it is ok for a five year old in kindergarden to walk up to another five year old and say F*** off? And just accept it as he talks a different way?
no... I'm speaking about different ways to speak. Not that I like the way they speak but I can't change a culture. There's street language where they swear at each other and it could be meant in a positive way.
man1: yo wazzup my nigga
doesn't mean he's his slave just asking how he's doing... that's the way he speaks and has done it in his childhood too.
man2: yo I just fed up my ho
meaning that he gave his wife/girlfriend/fiance something to eat
apoligize for any incorrect or misspoken streetlanguage :p.
This doesn't mean I like the way they speak though. I was just being informative.
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I was never allowed to swear as a child so now I rarely swear myself and have never allowed my son to swear and as a result at 13 he doesn't either (that I know of)
With proper parenting the amount of swearing could be dramatically reduced
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I was never allowed to swear as a child so now I rarely swear myself and have never allowed my son to swear and as a result at 13 he doesn't either (that I know of)
With proper parenting the amount of swearing could be dramatically reduced
I completely agree with Lanser :).
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Peacer we are talking about kindergarden students. Not young males with the gangsta image. Kindergarden students don't walk around their schools saying those things because the schools wouldn't tolerate it.
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Peacer we are talking about kindergarden students. Not young males with the gangsta image. Kindergarden students don't walk around their schools saying those things because the schools wouldn't tolerate it.
I know this, but you asked for my opinion and I gave an abstract example along with it. My opinion Is long but will be unclear if spoken right now seeing as I'm in school, I got a class and I'm nearly sleeping.
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Because I find the change to be unnecessary and silly :) Well, and for the sake of the discussion. I am curious as to how far you want to take this: do you want to see "bugger" removed from the game entirely, and have players receive warnings for using that word? Should it go onto the official censor list? Do you want it erradicated from PlaneShift forever?
Genuine questions.
I find the use of the word by an NPC unnecessary and silly and a poor example to young people. No one could be offended by a friend calling them "silly bugger" but if a stranger called me a bugger I would be highly offended. I certainly would complain if a shop assistant called me a bugger because I asked them a question. Wouldn't you?
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Because I find the change to be unnecessary and silly :) Well, and for the sake of the discussion. I am curious as to how far you want to take this: do you want to see "bugger" removed from the game entirely, and have players receive warnings for using that word? Should it go onto the official censor list? Do you want it erradicated from PlaneShift forever?
Genuine questions.
I find the use of the word by an NPC unnecessary and silly and a poor example to young people. No one could be offended by a friend calling them "silly bugger" but if a stranger called me a bugger I would be highly offended. I certainly would complain if a shop assistant called me a bugger because I asked them a question. Wouldn't you?
try looking at it this way, from their point of view... imagine he says "sodomy" instead of "bugger" and you're in their situation
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Oh dear, no offence to anyone in particular but this seems so totally overboard and rediculous to me that I would think it was some sort of sad joke were it not for the length of time that this has run for.
A. Bugger is an entirely acceptable word to the vast majority of people.
B. We chop rogues to pieces but cant say bugger or bastard ???
C. Are you trying to claim that there is something wrong with sodomy.
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No, actually my character is more of the sane sort that doesn't feel like killing anyone who throws an insulting word her way. I think you're taking it OOCly.
So you roleplay differently. Your character sounds more like a pacifist. Congratulations...
So as long as I don't kill random people for stupid reasons, I'm a pacifist?
So I guess you won't mind if someone calls you queer? They might mean you are questionable or suspicious or just plain odd. What about gay?
The difference is between using those words as an adjective or as a noun. Compare "That fellow seemed a bit queer, despite how gay his mood was." to "He is a queer. He is a gay." The meanings are entirely different. In one context, they are perfectly fine. In the other, it's hate speach.
If Malfini is offended he has every right to be.
Yup. People will get offended by anything and everything. Malfini also has the right to change the chat filters, or to simply not play the game.
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A. Bugger is an entirely acceptable word to the vast majority of people.
As I understand it; to you Americans bugger means a pest. To us Britons there is no such use for the word and in the context used by the NPC seems extremely rude. Bugger can be used as an affectionate term among friends; "silly old bugger" "little bugger"; but otherwise is just vulgar slang. Actually according to the Urban Dictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bugger) the word ought to be accompanied by "little" in order to be inoffensive even in American. I was not allowed to use my own name in PS (Pippa) because in Italian it is slang for a sexual act. That was done in consideration of a MINORITY. How come an NPC is allowed to address players using the same sort of slang. Are Britons not worthy of consideration?
To us the NPC might just as well have been saying ".... he's taking care of F***ers like you"; it would be no more rude.
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Changing it to "little bugger" makes sense IMO.
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A. Bugger is an entirely acceptable word to the vast majority of people.
As I understand it; to you Americans bugger means a pest. To us Britons there is no such use for the word and in the context used by the NPC seems extremely rude. Bugger can be used as an affectionate term among friends; "silly old bugger" "little bugger"; but otherwise is just vulgar slang. Actually according to the Urban Dictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bugger) the word ought to be accompanied by "little" in order to be inoffensive even in American. I was not allowed to use my own name in PS (Pippa) because in Italian it is slang for a sexual act. That was done in consideration of a MINORITY. How come an NPC is allowed to address players using the same sort of slang. Are Britons not worthy of consideration?
To us the NPC might just as well have been saying ".... he's taking care of F***ers like you"; it would be no more rude.
Pip, I understand your frustration and I made this thread even though I'm an American. Letting NPC's use vulgar slang but not players would seem like a double-standard. Xordan said that he would try to get the word changed though. Lets hope the word is changed sometime.
Zanzibar, I wouldn't duel someone In-Character for simply insulting me. I would try to settle the dispute In-Character verbally before resorting to dueling.
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Zanzibar, I wouldn't duel someone In-Character for simply insulting me. I would try to settle the dispute verbally before resorting to dueling.
What about just walking away? ???
The devs are NOT being hypocritical because they simply don't see the word as vulgur. There is no double standard.
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Zanzibar, I wouldn't duel someone In-Character for simply insulting me. I would try to settle the dispute verbally before resorting to dueling.
What about just walking away? ???
The devs are NOT being hypocritical because they simply don't see the word as vulgur. There is no double standard.
It is a game Zanzibar. The game would not be very exciting if everyone constantly got along In-Character and there was no conflict. There would be no good versus evil or anything of the sort.
Malfini will try to talk with a person first to resolve a conflict. If that doesn't work he MAY challenge them to a duel. If we were not suppose to duel in the game then the challenge/duel feature wouldn't exist.
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im not english, and i dont see nothing wrong in "bugger", and i readed all the definitions possible, this thread is stupid just because any person will actually understand that they want to understand IMO.
I even dont understand how words like sodomite can be marked like rude
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Maybe if we found sodomy in the dictionary
WARNING: link may contain sexually explict material(sp anywhere?)
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/sodomy
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As I understand it; to you Americans bugger means a pest. To us Britons there is no such use for the word and in the context used by the NPC seems extremely rude.
I would have to disagree, im English and have never been offended by this word. I think the majority of english people would probably agree with me.
[Edit]
Maybe if we found sodomy in the dictionary
I think we are all well aware of its meaning, except let me clarify that when I said
C. Are you trying to claim that there is something wrong with sodomy.
I was refering to the Biblical usage of the word and not beastiality.
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As I understand it; to you Americans bugger means a pest. To us Britons there is no such use for the word and in the context used by the NPC seems extremely rude.
I would have to disagree, im English and have never been offended by this word. I think the majority of english people would probably agree with me.
I am English, and I am offended by it too, so thats 2-1.
Also I am offended by Gobble, for the same reason.
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Malfini will try to talk with a person first to resolve a conflict. If that doesn't work he MAY challenge them to a duel. If we were not suppose to duel in the game then the challenge/duel feature wouldn't exist.
That's horribly flawed logic.
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I dont mean to put words in other peoples mouths, but from his posts on this topic I would guess that Xordan wasnt offended by it.... 2-2
Also I am offended by Gobble, for the same reason.
lmao, now im thinking you are just joking..... I hope :-\
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I would have to disagree, im English and have never been offended by this word. I think the majority of english people would probably agree with me.
So if I say to you; it's buggers like you that let the side down; you will not think I am being rude or offensive?
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So if I say to you; it's buggers like you that let the side down; you will not think I am being rude or offensive?
now, its not the word bugger that I would find rude or offensive in that statement, it would be the 'like you that are letting the side down' that would.
And frankly I think that the name Pippa not being allowed is pretty silly.... and yes, I do know what it means in case anyone was to suggest that is why I think its fine
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ERM he is Welsh I believe, but no matter, the point I am trying to make is if someone is offended it should be removed, after all that seams to be a GM stance on names in game, ALSO were do YOU draw the line, with bad words?
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I personally draw the line at anything racist, homophobic or sexist.
Other than that literally nothing really offends me when it comes to words... someones meaning is a different thing entirely
As for the English/Welsh thing.... Lets just say British from now on :P
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I personally draw the line at anything racist, homophobic or sexist.
Other than that literally nothing really offends me when it comes to words... someones meaning is a different thing entirely
As for the English/Welsh thing.... Lets just say British from now on :P
Very confused look on face reading the word Homophobic, then reading the meaning of BUGGER.
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ERM he is Welsh I believe, but no matter, the point I am trying to make is if someone is offended it should be removed, after all that seams to be a GM stance on names in game, ALSO were do YOU draw the line, with bad words?
I am offended by the color of blue. Remove the dungeons!
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ERM he is Welsh I believe, but no matter, the point I am trying to make is if someone is offended it should be removed, after all that seams to be a GM stance on names in game, ALSO were do YOU draw the line, with bad words?
I am offended by the color of blue. Remove the dungeons!
Bye Bye Klyros as well *grins*
We are talking bad words here
get with the jist of the post or do not bother making a fool of yourself.
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I think everyone should read all 10 pages before posting in this thread. If they don't they will probably just ask or say things that have already been said. Some people also seem to post completely irrelevant things in this thread..
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I personally draw the line at anything racist, homophobic or sexist.
Other than that literally nothing really offends me when it comes to words... someones meaning is a different thing entirely
As for the English/Welsh thing.... Lets just say British from now on :P
Bugger, when refering to a sodomite, is a homophobic slur.
However, it is NOT refering to a sodomite in the context it is found in when spoken by the NPC.
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The origin of the word is an ethnic slur as well. I am not sure we have any Bulgarians around to be offended though.
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(I'm not on the Settings team, Garile, and as such it's not my job to write quest dialogs or check them for approval :} Frankly having our team check every single word just in case somewhere in the world there are people considering it offensive would be a big waste of time - "bugger" was used completely innocently, and validly; it has several definitions. That people choose to see it as vulgar is not our aim, and not our fault. "Get with the times" comes to mind :P)
I do hope you did read my entire post Karyuu becuase as I said I tottally agree that bugger is in my opinion an innocent enough word. Innocent enough to validate a rude soldier to say it anyhow. However eventhough that being the case you are here in an official capacity and it's an honest request. Thats what I ment with that perhaps your first reply could have been more officially tinted and researched so not to give Malfini the idea its simply ignored.
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(I'm not on the Settings team, Garile, and as such it's not my job to write quest dialogs or check them for approval :} Frankly having our team check every single word just in case somewhere in the world there are people considering it offensive would be a big waste of time - "bugger" was used completely innocently, and validly; it has several definitions. That people choose to see it as vulgar is not our aim, and not our fault. "Get with the times" comes to mind :P)
Looks like Xordan will be trying to get it changed to appease those with sensitive eyes and ears, so people can relax now. However, don't report players who choose to call you a "bugger" with innocent intentions. That would be a serious waste of GM time and would make me very angry at you :) kthx.
Higlited in red, AS a 50 year old who has travelled to most parts of the world, and interacted with people from all parts of the world, find it very annoying that a 19 year old should tell me to get with the times, this shows a complete disregard for all my years of experience, and shows that you do not have any real experience of dealing with people in the flesh so to speck.
Diferont people from different parts of the world think different, so do not judge them by your meagre little experience, get out there and see how different they are to you, before you start telling them how to behave.
A very ticked off 50 year old.
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It is so nice to see how PS teaches us morals and etiquette, isn't it?
*goes over to his neighbor and stabs him in the face for some assumed insult, but talks politely the entire time*
*Edit* To repete how EASY it is to change your filter for those of you that seem to have missed it.
PS -> Data -> Options -> Chat
<replace bad="bugger" good="whiney little sissy" />
Now do that with every single word you can think of that might be offensive in any corner of the Earth, and maybe Mars as well.
Ingame: Options -> Chat -> incoming filter ON.
So it works.
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I am so very sad that I didn't see this post at the beginning. This in and of itself is pure gold:
Second, don't know about you, but will not even let my son [18) use that word or any other word, that could mean a swear word
Just a question Janner, because I'm a bit curious...do you allow the use of such words as "dang" instead of "damn". Or anything like "shoot", etc. etc.? Or are you one of those people which context means nothing to? My roommate is a shining example of what happens to suppressed children, I don't think he's been sober once this week.
Words are words.
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Janner don't be so disrespectfull.
Why is your opinion suddenly worth more then anyone elses?
do not judge them by your merger little experience, get out there and see how different they are to you, before you start telling them how to behave.
What are you thinking here? That what you are doing isn't exactly what you are so ticked of about but then worse?? You are telling people not to even speak their opinion becuase they disagree with you. Becuase they feel it is outdated and you do not they don't have the right to speak their minds anymore?
Shame on you Janner.
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AS a 50 year old who has travelled to most parts of the world, and interacted with people from all parts of the world, find it very annoying that a 15 year old should tell me to get with the times
I think that may be the entire reason why they say get with the times, the world changes, if you dont you end up behind the times.
Bugger, when refering to a sodomite, is a homophobic slur.
How so? If you were to say 'People who bugger repulse me' then you have a homophobic slur.
If you were to use the word in isolation then it doesnt have any negative conotations.
I have friends who have no issues with being refered to as fags, the same way I have no issues being refered to as straight, I dont believe either have negative conotations when used in isolation.
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C. Are you trying to claim that there is something wrong with sodomy.
Your kidding right? O.o I hope so .......
@Everyone: Why do you people have to constantly point out that the word "bugger" is ok to those who are offended by it. You telling them what it means to you won't change how they feel about it if it meant something bad to them. If someone is offended by a word don't argue with them that they shouldn't be .... just respect it. Good grief.
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Your kidding right? O.o I hope so .......
No. I was refering to the Biblical usage of the word and not beastiality.
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I cannot believe in this day and age... anybody but the most uptight and prude of people would be bothered about such mild expletives... still.. each to their own I suppose...
But seriously... going by the rules you wish to lay down.. STOP your kids from watching the Simpsons NOW!!! -- because they use even harsher words than that!!
In fact... duct-tape big wads of cotton wool over your child's ears.. because they'll hear harsher words than that when they go to school from their classmates. This protectionist attitude towards children doesn't help them. (apart from helping them to grow up prude and easily offended too!!)
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I hope I won't get too many angry PMs in my inbox if I close this thread now. It's gone on for a very long time with very heated posts.
The word will be changed, rejoice, sing and dance, party.
Most of all, relax. Feel free to continue arguing about your individual opinions via group PMs, but I think we can let this horse die peacefully.
*edit*
Feel free to poke me with a PM if you need this thread opened for whatever reason, of course. Key word being need.