PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Esserfin on February 03, 2007, 09:17:14 pm
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To all the people who is part of this project:
last events pushed me to write this letter because it's time for my worlds to be said.
I've played this game for a good amount of time now and i've seen a lot of things i like but also
some of them i dislike.
The general method to consider all the players as a single unit it's basically really wrong. let me
explain: i've made friends in my time in the game and some of them moved to GM and Dev condition in
the meanwhile so could happen that i get a tell by one of them asking about situation of the game
and of new bugs i've found around. I know i can trust them and, more important, they know they can
trust me. And i'm *also* well trained, i've solved all the quests around and i've learned how to RP in a
good way in this years honestly. But i'm still considered an untrusted player..and is how i feel.
We all know also that we need people who RP, people who solve quests and people who level up to find
all the bugs that could be present.
We need all of them..that must be clear.
The excuse that usually the team uses when something wrong happens is the old 'it's an alpha
release' one. That's right but... are human relationships between us always in an alpha release too?
The structure Devs - GMs - Players showed its weakness so many times that i can't understand why no
one have seen it.
All the times that a wipe happens we *all* move back to the stoneage. we had only one exception
moving from MB to CB when something has been moved in the new era as a reward for effords we put in
this project as players. A great idea...used only one time.
Maybe it's time to use it more often?
I'm not speaking of the greed to have al my stuff preserved for my own purpose, i'm speaking of the
need to have well skilled players around to test the game *always* not only after months of
basically stupid training because of a wipe.
So the basic question is....do you (Planeshift Team) trust someone around that is not a Dev or a GM
enough to give him/her back the stat and skill levels after that? Or to listen them seriously?
Do people like me have the possibility to be heard when starts to complain about the loss of his
'properties' done because 'someone cheated ...and you could be one of them'?
The consequence of this kind of acts is the periodic loss of Oldbies around...and we need to
discover the wheel again and again. If no one listen 'old' people around we only obtain that we
don't need new problems because we can recycle the old ones for ages.
Give credit and confidence to the people who is here to try to help. Please.
In another thread i've been warned by Neko because i was complaining too much...but i've seen no
reply by him to Siteri (nothing personal) when i've got the advice 'Create more accounts so you can
keep things more safe'. You have responsabilities here...you can't consider a trick something you
could let live with no words. Or another post where someone said 'throw a stone if you have no
spots'admitting that he abuse bugs with no consequences at all. There're honest people around you
know? And that kind of people is *offended* by things like that.
Give to experience and honesty the respect they deserve.
Time for Vigesimi to be an active part of all this. If we all want to move forward.
Please don't take this post as an attack to Planeshift, it's only a love gesture.
And if no one will listen this words...well...i've only wasted another part of my free time.
With Love.
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To all the people who are complaining, giving suggestion and commenting on the Wipe:
Get used to it.
Love you all, but I rather see the game move forward in development than keep my hands on a few (easily replaced) tria.
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I want to agree with you, but I'm finding it very difficult to figure out what you're talking about...
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So the basic question is....do you (Planeshift Team) trust someone around that is not a Dev or a GM enough to give him/her back the stat and skill levels after that? Or to listen them seriously?
Do you understand the level of favoritism this will show? If we hand-pick the people who get to keep their stats or items, can you even comprehend the amount of crying, hating, and complaining we will have to deal with? Do you think that older players won't occasionally cash in on a bug or exploit? Because I can assure you, "seniority" in the game has a lot less to do with this than you may think. Yes, there are players I can place my full trust in. But that's because I know them personally and consider them my friends. Would I give them their stuff back just because of that? Absolutely not.
Do people like me have the possibility to be heard when starts to complain about the loss of his 'properties' done because 'someone cheated ...and you could be one of them'?
I hear you, but I cannot make exceptions. For every player that I know, there can be dozens I'm not familiar with that can make your same claim - and what do I say to them? "I'm sorry but I don't know who the hell you are so bugger off"?
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I want to agree with you, but I'm finding it very difficult to figure out what you're talking about...
If it's because of my english i can't do nothing better (it's not my natural language). If it's because of arguments i can't do nothing ...maybe it's not addressed to you.
@Karyuu I can understand what you're saying but...i'd like to step forward from the 'i have more items/skills than you' people showing off around. There are players who don't mind/want to do it. People who could need stats/skills back to have the possibility to check new things without the need of re-train all again for months before gaining back the requirements to do that.
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Wipes have happened, wipes will happen again .. there are plenty of warnings about this. If you can't cope with that, sorry to say it, but that's entirely your problem. The devs and GMs will never claim that you won't be wiped anymore so you are playing this game fully aware of that possibility. They can't give anyone special treatment either .. it's not always possible to track down every offender so everyone suffers the consequences of their actions. If you're going to be disappointed in anyone or mad at anyone .. take it out on the people who abuse bugs instead of reporting them, I'd say.
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Esserfin, favoritism and special treatment is a bucket no one on the development team wants to step into. It's not going to happen - and I am surprised that you do not see the inherent problems with your suggestion. How can you not understand that we can't pick and choose which players gets to keep what in a wipe?
Besides, were not skills left alone in this wipe?
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Esserfin, favoritism and special treatment is a bucket no one on the development team wants to step into. It's not going to happen - and I am surprised that you do not see the inherent problems with your suggestion. How can you not understand that we can't pick and choose which players gets to keep what in a wipe?
I'm not saying that this will be an easy thing to do...and i'm not claiming it for me. I just wanted to know if it was possible to build a reputation acting honestly in game for years. And this seems impossible. That's a real pity because there are good and honest players around. that could be used better.
Besides, were not skills left alone in this wipe?
Yeah ...i was not complaining about it (this time). :)
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Being around for a long time, you must know how I feel about "General Complaints About A Wipe" threads... ;) You're not saying anything that people haven't already said in dozens of threads on this subject.
No special treatments during wipes, at all.
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this whole thing went from an act of terrorism to get a bug fix to everyone freaking about a wipe. to be honest i can only remember one person complaing about not having their trias anymore...
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You can't trust the public. Ever. Individuals have the potential to be good, but the public as a whole are evil, selfish, greedy and stupid- which is something you can count on.
And even if people did want their skills back just for testing's sake, there's other people who consider this a game - maybe not a finished game, but a game nonetheless - and they want things fair. They don't want 'testers' going around who have super buffed-up stats for the off-chance that something might require super buffed-up stats...
Edit: Coneitic, no offense at all, but why are you still here? :P Just out of interest...
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And even if people did want their skills back just for testing's sake, there's other people who consider this a game - maybe not a finished game, but a game nonetheless - and they want things fair. They don't want 'testers' going around who have super buffed-up stats for the off-chance that something might require super buffed-up stats...
To become a Gm you need to be a player first...and Gms are players. Did you find it unfair?
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Favoritism causes more problems then it creates. I cannot claim friends with GMs, Devs, or others in charge, and what I lost was a gift from a friend of mine who, to the best of my knowledge, earned the money completely legally. I'm not bothered by this; However, if someone could keep legally obtained funds just because they are friends with the people up top would bother me to no end: Just because I haven't made the right friends, they were spared from something that effected me. I would think "What unfair favoritism!", and probably be writing the exact opposite of the post you just made, complaining that if I got wiped after someone else abused something, so should everyone else.
I wasn't even online when one person abused the bug and ruined it for all the honest players. However, I'm fine with losing the money--I'm not completely broke, and still have some money, and it's a recoverable loss. Certainly an easier thing to recover from then the huge inflation that would inevitably happen after that many trias entered the economy all at once.
However, the general view that we as players are all likely to cheat at the first opportunity isn't true; unfortunately I find this is a prevailing view among those who're in charge of keeping cheaters down in mmorpgs. I can understand the need to be suspicious due to those few who ruin it for the rest of us, but the prevailing idea that everyone can't be trusted is a bad one. Much better to consider what is known about the player before assuming they are going to cheat, lie, and steal to get ahead in a game. It's again a case of a few ruining it for the rest of us, but if it's just a few, then don't allow people to abuse that, but don't then act like everyone is guilty. The few are guilty, everyone else is perfectly fine; I'm willing to sacrifice things to prevent a few from abusing them, but I'm not willing to then be lumped into the group with those few in the minds of those in charge, at least openly. It's like if the police take you into custody because you might fit a vague description of someone who committed a crime, and you know you're innocent. It's an inconvenience, sure, and a pretty scary experience, but you'll be out of there soon enough, and afterwards there's likely to be one less lawbreaker on the streets. The police don't treat you like a potential criminal once you've been cleared as someone who isn't a suspect though, they apologize for the trouble they caused, and send you on your way. It'd be nice if those running mmorpgs could do the same; apologize for the inconvenience caused by a small minority of cheaters, and have everyone move on.
Edited to add:
You can't trust the public. Ever. Individuals have the potential to be good, but the public as a whole are evil, selfish, greedy and stupid- which is something you can count on.
I actually find the public more reliable to do the right thing then individuals, when faced with the fact that what they're doing is, at it's heart, wrong. A major incentive against committing a crime or preforming some other bad deed is social pressure--something that the public creates, which I think needs to be heavier while on the web... many think they can do whatever they want on here, because nobody will see them--this is individuals causing problems, not the public as a whole..
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And even if people did want their skills back just for testing's sake, there's other people who consider this a game - maybe not a finished game, but a game nonetheless - and they want things fair. They don't want 'testers' going around who have super buffed-up stats for the off-chance that something might require super buffed-up stats...
To become a Gm you need to be a player first...and Gms are players. Did you find it unfair?
GMs are above the status of 'player'. They have responsibilities, duties, they've worked for their trust.
It's different from simply declaring 'I want to have superior stats because I'll use them to test stuff'.
Edit: When I say 'The public are selfish', I don't mean every single member of the public is selfish, I mean there's always at least one person within the public who is selfish, and so you MUST treat the entire public as selfish. That's just how it goes. It doesn't mean you should treat individual people with suspicion. You'll never meet 'the public' in your entire life, but you should still be careful of it.
Nobody's 'lumping' you in with the rest of the cheaters. It's just a precaution they have to take.
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The point that seems to be missed here it NOT the loss of items or money. The common point that has been voiced is the lack of respect, common human courtesy, to any of the testers/players. It isn't the lost of things so much as the fact that most players/testers feel their voice is not heard on any issue. If it isn't something already thought of by the Dev. team a suggestion is laughed at. If it is a bug, even a dangerous one, it is ignored or remedied in what seems to be a half hearted "fix". If a topic on the forum is unpalatable or difficult to hear it is locked down or the comments deleted. One must ask why are we even here. to take up space on the server? to use the game? virtual bodies? account number and ip addresses? That is it. If we all knew that from the beginning instead of giving us the illusion of a voice many would not be so upset. In telling us we are testers many are under this false impression that we matter. To put it simply we do not. When we comment negatively on any topic regarding how thing are run we are reminded we are testers. I have seen the comment suck it up more than once. it is unfortunate. Truly what we understand as a tester and what this role actually means are sadly, two very different things.
Funny, when I frist started playing and heard that we where testers. I thought "wow we matter we are part of the creation of a game how very wonderful" now, I hear the word tester and cringe. The reality is it means little and has become a bit of a thorn and a source of frustration for many. Fustrations that can not be voiced.
We must also consider this: If an issue keeps returning, if it is still being discussed then it is not really resolved. It is important to express oneself, especially when those opinions are not popular ones. These recent issues have brought to the surface the frustrations many have felt for some time. It is unfortunate that because those in charge are tired of hearing it that these frustrations must be pushed down again where they can fester into another desperate act like we recently experienced.
I also realize that by posting this I too risk banishment. Though I am debating whether I should continue playing the game. Now that Eid is banned I am not sure I want to play Gwinn anyway. who wants to play a depressed character. I am up in the air about that. What would reduce the frustration level for many I think is to outline EXACTLY what our role is here. It is truly ashame. I have not found anyone in game I disliked oocly the players in PS are some of the best around and many are a joy to rp with. Well if this post gets to stay I honestly will be amazed, though I also know that if it does it will not matter. Still I have said all I have to say.
Be well all.
P.S. be well Eid you will be missed.
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However, the general view that we as players are all likely to cheat at the first opportunity isn't true; unfortunately I find this is a prevailing view among those who're in charge of keeping cheaters down in mmorpgs. I can understand the need to be suspicious due to those few who ruin it for the rest of us, but the prevailing idea that everyone can't be trusted is a bad one.
Whenever possible, GMs try to give players the benefit of the doubt in questionable situations. We hope players do not attempt to take advantage of this trust, and provide their full cooperation.
We want this game to be good for new players and old, RPers and gamers, so we need the economy to not have billions of circles. Wiping is a drastic measure and we don't do it without a lot of thought, debate and discussion about the best way to undo the damage caused by our bugs (sorry!) without hurting the innocent. We do our best to find and fix bugs we find, but this is a huge and complex game and it is very difficult to keep up with innovative players. :-)
Just the immediate quotes I could think of. It's wrong to think that all players are cheaters, and it's wrong to think that this is what the dev team thinks :) So don't.
Gwinn, I think it's absolutely appalling to say that you've seen a "lack of respect, common human courtesy, to any of the testers/players." What game are you playing, exactly? Please don't try to demonize us, we don't like that too much.
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[GMs are above the status of 'player'. They have responsibilities, duties, they've worked for their trust.
GMs are GMs when they uses GMs accounts...and players when they uses players accounts.
You can try to become a GM too if you want to...
It's different from simply declaring 'I want to have superior stats because I'll use them to test stuff'.
Now i have the proof...you have undertood nothing of what i was saying. I'll try to enance my english next time.
@ Garon : Play for two years most of the days and, after, repeat me that you're saying about my showing off frienship with GMs/Devs. It's a natural evolution of relationships....i'm not special.
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Oh! An open letter!
/me throws away the paperknife
*someone yells next door*
There's always the same debate around wipes.
I don't think money in game is that important, personally, and I see no substantial difference in those having 30M, or those having 200k (in game ^^). Exploiting a bug to earn money isn't ethic, but really leads nowhere, since I wonder what they were going to do with that money, afterwards.
People hates wipes, for what they loose.
What I don't like about wipes, is that general believing amongst certain parts of the playerbase that try to think about a "RPed" (*sigh*) reason as to justify why they lost their items. It is then, Esserfin, when we're rediscovering the wheel. The gods punished the citizens for having too much, a massive stealing took place amongst the population... and other equally original plots arise as to justify something that does not need to be justified IC. And that, even if it "could" be justified, has in no way to force others to follow that plot. "So, you say gods did not punish you?"
Frankly, that's the part of wipes that I'd like to avoid the most.
Except when it concerns complete wipe, that I've to redo if I play, the buddy list. But this is not the present case, if I've read the threads correctly.
There is also that point about being maxed to test things out to the full. Nothing against that, but, in any case, I think any GM can edit their own stats. Sure, players can contribute there too, but it's not strictly necessary to have maxed chars to test. A GM can edit their own stats, for testing purposes if needed be. They might also alter another char stats, I think.
One might think... yeah, but GM are few, and players are lots, so players could seek and find those bugs faster than GM alone. Agree completely. But, afterall, if you've to be maxed to find a bug, and noone still is, then it's affecting noone yet either. So, when players do reach that state (that could have been "explored" by GM before hand) where that bug might show, then they'd be able to find it, and report it.
The game mechanics are heavily unbalanced. Even without actually "cheating" someone posted here, or in another similar thread (sorry not to recall your name) that with mining, one can become rich fairly quick. The nice thing is that then all is dressed as roleplay and there can be public auctions settled anywhere in Hydlaa, where insane amounts of trias are payed for items. Those amounts seem completely ooc to me, and simply show an unbalance with the mechanics the game has to earn money.
I resist myself to assume, too, that the IC reality is that the wealthier beings in Yliakum have their hands gashed due to having spent much time digging with a pick. Call me classical, but I picture the wealthy ones differently.
I think there should be a moment where the player realizes about the meaningless attitude of earning money. "I earn it for my guild, or those new members of it, to aid them". Well, judging the quantities that have been posted somewhere, there was not much need of keeping adding money into the box. In any case, and then again to imagine guilds as an structure inside a society, I personally do not see the higher ranks of them fighting endlessly or mining mindlessly with the aim of earning money for their initiates.
Unfortunately seems that the fashion is to live a continued gold rush.
And this insanity, starts from the very point where you send a new player to the sewers, to kill rats, instead of treating him like a real new being for the city. Even if some do send them with nice sentences that might appear as "RP", truth is that, if we take some distance from the scene, I think it's easy to see that, in reality, that massive "recruitment to deal with the sewer rat infestion" is not believable. But that's another story, and is a bit out of topic in here.
I think there has to be some self control from the player side, as to see what would be seen as "acceptable" from a realistic point of view, in a realistic environment IC.
PS: Seems there have been many replies while reading this. Let's not turn this into flaming one another.
Gwinn Ravenn I just read your post, and it is worrying. I should try to find more info about that distancing between playerbase and development team. I'll try to search and find out if your feelings are shared by many. Thanks for your post.
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Please understand my post was not written with the slightest amount of hostility. It was made with much sadness. as I have said I have seen reaction to many compains be : suck it up or simply your all testers. that in my opinion is not respectful to anyone. thos many may say the same things. it is only because they need to get it off their chest as well they too need to vent. I have not be treated disrespectfully then again I do not complain.. well until now that is. I can understand to you or anyone not taking kindly to my statements but they are my opinion. and other than this reply I will not express them again. I stand by my statement, it is by what I have seen in the forum the experences shared to me by other that have colored my opinions.
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Have you perhaps noticed that the overwhelming majority of "suck it up" or "you are all testers" comments have been made by your fellow players?
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It's like people give you a slice of cake and you whine about not getting the whole bakery.
Please, stop whining, it's getting tiring. It happens every time there is a wipe, there is absolutely nothing new to say and, all you are doing is encouraging the devs to not let you in.
Be grateful for what you have and stop complaining.
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and how are we to know what comments come from devs and gm's and what come from other players? unless you know who is who hard to tell. but that does not chage my statements. as I said experiences have been relayed to me that color my opinion.
as far as people complaining. they need to vent, even if they say exactly the same thing as another. they them selves need to say it. as long as they are not abusing others then even if your tired of hearing it it should not be silenced. that is disrespectful. it is like say I dont care what you say someone else said it so your comment was unnecessary. as so we will delet it and if someone agrees with you they dont get to say so because we locked down the thread so we dont have to know how deeply and passionately and how wide spread this feeling is. *sigh*
"Be grateful for what you have and stop complaining" from the above post
This is exactly what Frustrates us.. i have no way of know if this person is a dev or a gm. if this is not the feeling of same then pls let us know who you are what is official what is not.
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Oh! An open letter!
let me start saying that my letter is totaly OOC.
About the part concerning the earned trias for the guild let me say that, as we already said, it's something that *happens* after a while...sum of the donations we get from members and give to the treasury.
About GMs ability to rise their stats...do you really think they have also the time to move around for hours to check bugs? :)
To be a GM it's an hard work and my proposal was a try to do part of the work for them ...something that a honest player can do easily (as we always do playing). But there are situations that needs high stats/skills. And after a wipe we all lose them. So...let me try to explain with one example... if an ulber starts to drop silverweave swords after an update or a wipe we'll see it after 3 months of re-traiining when we move to kill our first ulber. Or if a spell fails all the times above the 30 level. That's a waste of time imho. :)
Playing this game for a long time teaches you that most of the trias and weapons you have are useless...be sure that i know it. But the possibility to discover a bug because of my high stas/skills is something no one can pay me back. It's part of my presence ingame.
@ Gwinn : You used the right word...frustration
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Gwinn, if you and a bunch of your friends made a game in your spare time purely because you enjoyed doing so, and you decided to release it, even though it was far from finished, so others could enjoy it, would you rather:
a) make sure the people who are playing with your work for free are 100% satisfied and content before continuing with your own enjoyment
or
b) do what you've signed up to do, and what you enjoy doing, and maybe dedicate 20% of your time to helping others enjoy your work
My point is; if you pay the Devs' and GMs' salaries, then you can decide who they listen to and what their priorities are.
Until then, you're kinda at their mercy .
If you're not satisfied, make your own game :P
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So, what you are saying is that because the Player's exploit bug, the devs should have to put up with whining?
Now, forgive me, I'm a bit slow today but, that sounds completely idiotic. Just my opinion.
The Devs gave us a game, said it was alpha and that there will be wipes. You've been warned countless times, get over it.
As a great man once said
"Waaaaaaaa, Waaaaaaa, Waaaaa, somebody call the waaaaaaaambulance"
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and how are we to know what comments come from devs and gm's and what come from other players? unless you know who is who hard to tell.
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i have no way of know if this person is a dev or a gm. if this is not the feeling of same then pls let us know who you are what is official what is not.
All developers, moderators, IRC-ops, and GMs have an avatar and/or a "rank" under their name. (Shorty13 does too, but he isn't supposed to. o.O)
josePhoenix
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So, what you are saying is that because the Player's exploit bug, the devs should have to put up with whining?
Now, forgive me, I'm a bit slow today but, that sounds completely idiotic. Just my opinion.
The Devs gave us a game, said it was alpha and that there will be wipes. You've been warned countless times, get over it.
As a great man once said
"Waaaaaaaa, Waaaaaaa, Waaaaa, somebody call the waaaaaaaambulance"
Nurahk, you're not exactly helping either :P
You're unsympathetic. We get it. Your opinion has been registered. You can rest easy now ::)
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So, what you are saying is that because the Player's exploit bug, the devs should have to put up with whining?
Now, forgive me, I'm a bit slow today but, that sounds completely idiotic. Just my opinion.
The Devs gave us a game, said it was alpha and that there will be wipes. You've been warned countless times, get over it.
As a great man once said
"Waaaaaaaa, Waaaaaaa, Waaaaa, somebody call the waaaaaaaambulance"
Now your whining that people are whining... this could get complicated very quickly.
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Frankly, yes I am tired of wipe threads. We are all tired of wipe threads. I no longer care about what people have to say about wipes, and I will be absolutely blunt about it. The opinions are nothing new. The comments are nothing we haven't heard through several years. The endless complaining drives me away time and time again and makes me hesitate to check back here again. The negativity, the accusations, all that jazz. And that's exactly what stops a lot of the developers from visiting the forums frequently - because they feel cornered and attacked. Players come and players go, but we stick around and get to hear all the commotion from a thousand mouths, like broken records.
These forums are not for venting. If you need to channel out your frustration, you may be asked to do it somewhere else because a lot of us are tired of feeling like we have targets branded onto our foreheads. If you manage to make a post that genuinely expresses something really well-worded and thought out, we love that. But if you're again pouting at wipes and their effects, what good are you doing? You think we're not aware of how wipes affect players?
The distance that you are creating between players and the development team is sometimes just that - your own creation.
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I'm more disgusted by the lack of gratitude than unsympathetic.
It's like kicking Santa in the crotch because he had to fix one of your computer and you lost your save game.
I can understand that people are annoyed by the lost items and tria, feeling that their time was wasted. But it wasn't, if you're a half decent player than you got to develop your character and chances are something you did at sometime helped the game. Be happy with that, and maybe the devs will do a reward for faithfulness again, but that happened after years of development.
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can we have a wipe of wipe threads please? :P
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However, the general view that we as players are all likely to cheat at the first opportunity isn't true; unfortunately I find this is a prevailing view among those who're in charge of keeping cheaters down in mmorpgs. I can understand the need to be suspicious due to those few who ruin it for the rest of us, but the prevailing idea that everyone can't be trusted is a bad one.
Whenever possible, GMs try to give players the benefit of the doubt in questionable situations. We hope players do not attempt to take advantage of this trust, and provide their full cooperation.
We want this game to be good for new players and old, RPers and gamers, so we need the economy to not have billions of circles. Wiping is a drastic measure and we don't do it without a lot of thought, debate and discussion about the best way to undo the damage caused by our bugs (sorry!) without hurting the innocent. We do our best to find and fix bugs we find, but this is a huge and complex game and it is very difficult to keep up with innovative players. :-)
Just the immediate quotes I could think of. It's wrong to think that all players are cheaters, and it's wrong to think that this is what the dev team thinks :) So don't.
I was merely responding to the general feeling behind the original post, with my thoughts on it--I haven't interacted with the GM and Dev teams enough to make any broad assumptions of my own about their view of players. When I said:
However, the general view that we as players are all likely to cheat at the first opportunity isn't true; unfortunately I find this is a prevailing view among those who're in charge of keeping cheaters down in mmorpgs.
I was not overtly pointing fingers at the Planeshift Dev. and GM team, which I have not seen in action for long enough to point fingers at in any way (good or bad), I was speaking from my experiences in other mmorpgs, and how it was a prevailing view among many that I've played that all players are bad and out to harm others as soon as someone looks the other way.
I can say that the general feeling behind the wipe seemed to be more "well, even if they didn't cheat then, they probably cheated using this method before, so cut back their money" then a "well, we screwed up, and a few bad people abused it, so we'll cut things back a bit, sorry guys" on the receiving end of the posts and decisions. I am not a Dev or GM, so I can't write from their point of view.
As I can only speak from this point of view, and not from the others, and although it's likely that it wasn't at the level that this decision was made, the way it was delivered (Vengeance, had he written his post much more apologetically--more "So sorry, but because of a single person causing trouble, and that a small group of people have been abusing this bug for months, we've been forced to do a wipe to return stability to the economy" and less "oh, and by the way, we wiped, here's why", would have left a better impression of the Devs in general in my mind, and likely the other players minds as well--I realize it was sort of apologetic, but it could have been written much better then it was) and the point that there was not clear "other" as far as who's fault it was (at a basic level, it was the fault of the one who caused all the trouble--I mean at a more sort of "who to blame" level; Many are to blame in the end, but that they weren't pointed out by the Dev team as a sort of group means that it seems like the Dev team just assumes that players are all going to manipulate bugs)meant that the perceived "other" as far as who's fault it was becomes all those effected by the wipe, not just those who were the total cause for it--both leave a sort of bad general feeling.
Edit as to not have to write a new post, as it is just a clarification on my thoughts of the wipe as a whole:
I think that the wipe was necessary, important, and am not talking about the wipe itself--I'm fine with that. As I would be fine with being pulled into the police station if I vaguely resembled the description of someone wanted for their having taken part in the crime: better that I am stuck in a police station for a few hours then a criminal runs around on the loose. Losing a small amount of money is a small inconvenience compared to the problems that massive inflation would cause. What I'm writing about isn't disagreement with the wipe, but the way it was announced and the like.
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The distance that you are creating between players and the development team is sometimes just that - your own creation.
Mine has been my first, and last, try to keep Devs and players more near. I'm sad that this has not been noticed. I'll restart to be a 'typical' player in PS....maybe.
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We moan about wipes, we are moaned at for moaning, we moan for being moaned at, we are moaned at for moaning again... a vicious cycle emerges, every single wipe, every single mention of a wipe, i could mention the word "wipe" in guild chat and the next day there would be an epidemic.
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Garon, the Devs did trust us with the bug, for quite a while. But it's a small group of players who abused it and dropped tria everywhere. People picked that up and so the economy was crippled.
I understand that Vengeace's post could have been written better, but I do not think it should have. We, as a player base, are the ones that exploited the bug, why should he apologize to us, if anybody, we should be mad at those who exploited. If anything, the Devs attempted to fix the economy and level the playing field.
Now this thread is going to start going around in cirlces, it probably already has. There's no chance that we will reach a conclusion to this because all it is is complaining and defending.
Be grateful for what you have, and if you don't like the wipe, find bugs, report bugs and verify/edit existing bugs.
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I have not expressed anything to suggest ingratitude. what I have expressed is an observation regarding "tester" frustration the growing opinion we do not matter. expressing such things dose not suggest ingratitude it is quite the opposite. If we didn't care or where ungrateful those frustrated would leave and play something else we would not care enough to be frustrated in the first place. Many are frustrated because we see the potential of this game. It is the only one of its kind. It does create a wonderful setting for RP. Many do not want to see that destroyed. A complaint is not always sour grapes, in many cases it is an observation that something is heading in a direction that would be detrimental to the game. When we think of ourselves as testers we think we are supposed to help to point out thing we see as potential trouble spots. I will stop thinking of myself as a tester. I am merely an ip. Therefore I will no longer be frustrated nor will I feel the need to complain.
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I'm more disgusted by the lack of gratitude than unsympathetic.
It's like kicking Santa in the crotch because he had to fix one of your computer and you lost your save game.
I can understand that people are annoyed by the lost items and tria, feeling that their time was wasted. But it wasn't, if you're a half decent player than you got to develop your character and chances are something you did at sometime helped the game. Be happy with that, and maybe the devs will do a reward for faithfulness again, but that happened after years of development.
Yeah, I know. You've said the exact same thing in the last 5 or 6 posts you've made on this subject :P
I agree - the Devs and GMs and Mods and everyone else tied in with this thing are spending almost depressing amounts of time on this game, and people are still pissing all over them over things they can't control.
Likewise, the massive amounts of time players spend playing this game is ultimately worthless, because time and time again everything will be reset, and all that progress is lost.
It's just a never-ending cycle of frustration, and one that, like Karyuu said before, we need to laugh at.
As I intend to do:
...
Ha.
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Gwinn, you haven't explained at all why you feel the way you do. Where do you feel that you do not matter?
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Please lock this thread...that is not what i wanted to discuss here. Thanks to the people that changed a serious propositive post into a mess.
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Yeah, I know. You've said the exact same thing in the last 5 or 6 posts you've made on this subject :P
And yet, nobody has really noticed :P
Ah well, I'm leaving this thread now, enjoy feeling self righteous, people.
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This whole wipe thing is blown way out of propotion, when you play a game on your comp, you get halfway thru it and LOVE the game, if you have to reformat your comp due to a virus do you never play that game again? most likly you start over using your knowledge to get back to that point, you dont send out emails to teh game saying "i had to refomat fix me and send me a saved game file at this level. they would laugh at you.
So your left with the choice, let the viruse take over and keep playing the game,
Or reformat and start over
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Basically, PS is like a school, and the GMs and devs are like the teachers... I'm sure you've all been in a situation where a teacher has punished an entire class for one student's misbehavior. It's the same deal here.
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It's got more to do with frustration levels rather than the actual wipes, I think.
I've reported bugs I would consider a priority because of how they affect gameplay, but they aren't for the devs because of other more urgent problems. I can't play at the moment because of one of those bugs and all I can do is suck it up because there must be other more important or urgent things to solve now, and I understand it. That is their prerrogative and they really are doing their best. However, these things tend to add up. I think what Gwinn is pointing at is that even if the devs are doing all they can and great work at that, we can't help to feel frustrated every now and then and a way to deal with it is to just say it. It's something we can't help.
I don't expect to be missed at all nor that my priorities become those of the devs' immediately. Sometimes the best way to help is to get out of the way. Yeah, you can take some time off, complain somewhere else or find another game but nobody really wants the community to lose valuable members who have the skills to contribute in-game and out, even if every day a new player comes along and testers sorta become disposable in terms of server space. And seeing good RPers leave the game is always sad and it's even sadder if it happens because of miscommunication problems or misunderstandings becuase the community really loses then. Both devs and testers have things they can't help and have to suck up.
*edit: typo >.>
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This whole wipe thing is blown way out of propotion, when you play a game on your comp, you get halfway thru it and LOVE the game, if you have to reformat your comp due to a virus do you never play that game again? most likly you start over using your knowledge to get back to that point, you dont send out emails to teh game saying "i had to refomat fix me and send me a saved game file at this level. they would laugh at you.
So your left with the choice, let the viruse take over and keep playing the game,
Or reformat and start over
Well, actually, I'd probably stop playing and pick it up like a year later when I've forgotten the story. But yeah, the sentiment's sound.
People are just frustrated. You can't blame them. If I had actually played for longer than a few weeks, I'd probably have put my fist through the screen at this news...
. I think what Gwinn is pointing at is that even if the devs are doing all they can and great work at that, we can't help to feel frustrated every now and then and a way to deal with it is to just say it. It's something we can't help.
How would you like to be the one who's whined at relentlessly by a dozen people though?
[ Edited for language. --Karyuu ]
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I thought that I had. but no matter I have moved from frustration to acceptance. So it is a mute point for me.
the frustration is less from wipes. a wipe is expected and generally accepted. I know of people who have made suggestion, real one, instead of a response of we will consider your idea or not response at all. They where laughed at. No reasonable person expects the dev to respond to every suggestion, we dont expect to be laugh at or scoffed. when the anvil thing was happening I was there. we pointed out exactly what was happening and at what point in the process the crashed was happening. It was like pulling teeth to be heard. it took us half an hour just to convince someone it was the anvil not the trade function. Thank you Venge. for hearing us. some of the devs do listen. that is my personal experience. I have heard similar from other people. to get anyone to listen to us is like pulling teeth. It is frustrating' because we care and have to fight to be heard. We know the devs are working on off hours I think it is awesome that ps exists. a testament to real RPers. We are willing to be testers, if only we where allowed to be.
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I thought that I had. but no matter I have moved from frustration to acceptance. So it is a mute point for me.
the frustration is less from wipes. a wipe is expected and generally accepted. I know of people who have made suggestion, real one, instead of a response of we will consider your idea or not response at all. They where laughed at. No reasonable person expects the dev to respond to every suggestion, we dont expect to be laugh at or scoffed. when the anvil thing was happening I was there. we pointed out exactly what was happening and at what point in the process the crashed was happening. It was like pulling teeth to be heard. it took us half an hour just to convince someone it was the anvil not the trade function. Thank you Venge. for hearing us. some of the devs do listen. that is my personal experience. I have heard similar from other people. to get anyone to listen to us is like pulling teeth. It is frustrating' because we care and have to fight to be heard. We know the devs are working on off hours I think it is awesome that ps exists. a testament to real RPers. We are willing to be testers, if only we where allowed to be.
Again, Devs and GMs aren't paid to listen. They have no motivation to help you other than the goodness in their heart, and their devotion to 'Planeshift'.
The devs/GMs are just people. Maybe some of them have even lost their spark for the job after a few years. Who knows? The point is, you can't expect them to pledge their lives to helping you solve an anvil-related crafting-glitch in a 10%-finished free internet game. That's just not humanly possible.
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when that anvilproblem crashed the entire game it affect a lot more than just those using the anvil
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when that anvilproblem crashed the entire game it affect a lot more than just those using the anvil
Again; not life-pledging material, Eid.
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If we are really testers. and devs are on, they are available. this glitch was causing the server to crash in a big way. We figured out what was causing the problem and in what part of the process. I can code. I know how valuable that information is. it helps them to know where exactly to look in mounds and mounds of coding. it makes fixing an issue faster. No the devs are not Paid to listen to us they are not paid at all. I am not nor will I ever belittle their efforts. However, It is emensly frustrating to think your there to help them, you know exactly how hard it is to search for code, you tell them the problem that they where already trying to fix BTW is with this issue. you know from reading in irc they are looking in the wrong place. You say it is with this aspect at this point in the process. and they argue with you cuz your not a dev so you obviously dont know what your talking about. then after you stand guard over the anvil so no one can use it. then send a message watch we are using the anvil it is going to do X y and z then crash.. and lo and behold it dose. still your ignored untill another dev loggs on and listens. that is emensly fustrating. no they are not paid to listen we do not pay too play but buying into the idea we are there to help as testers it does no good.
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No offence, but maybe it's your communicative skills that are the problem... :innocent:
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I will take that response for what it is. Communication IS a two way street. I am not misunderstood often.
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I will take that response for what it is. Communication IS a two way street. I am not misunderstood often.
Well, you do make a lot of spelling errors, lack punctuation and speak in a rather disorganised manner...
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as most do in forums ;D
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All the times that a wipe happens we *all* move back to the stoneage.
Your character is not your inventory.
[/thread]
Esserfin, what you're asking for is rampant favouritism. As a member of the Dragon Council and as someone who's been playing the game for a considerable period of time, I can understand why you feel you're at a level above the rest of the player base, but I also think it's pretty silly and unjustified. There are a lot of trustworthy players. There are a lot of oldtime players. It's unfair and impractical of you to ask the staff to pick favourites.
Favoritism causes more problems then it creates.
*brain explodes*
The point that seems to be missed here it NOT the loss of items or money. The common point that has been voiced is the lack of respect, common human courtesy, to any of the testers/players.
You had me up to the last two words. There has been a lot of disrespect.... players such as yourself have been EXTREMELY disrespectful to the devs. Try to be a bit more understanding a bit less selfish.
This game is not about making money. And if you don't enjoy making money in the game, then why spend so much time doing it?
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well you may choose to reduce your comments to personal attack if you wish. It dose not matter to me. But on this forum the font is very very small in the reply box, and no way to adjust it in the reply window. It makes thing difficult. You can reply to the actual point I have made or you can choose to focus on spelling and typos. My points are valid. My writing style is a result of the books I read. many of them obscure. but I can be pithy when it is prudent.
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Basically, PS is like a school, and the GMs and devs are like the teachers... I'm sure you've all been in a situation where a teacher has punished an entire class for one student's misbehavior. It's the same deal here.
???
No one has been punished. This was not a punishment.
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The point I'm making here is, maybe the GMs or whomever you were so patiently explaining this to didn't respond properly because they weren't sure what you were rambling on about...
I'm not trying to 'attack' you. I don't dislike you at all. I'm merely stating a completely objective hypothesis based on my observation of your methods of expression.
I've read your points, and I understand them, I'm just wondering if you've considered everything...
[ Let's not draw out spelling checks. --Kary ]
(Awww man, that took me ages to do...)
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Favoritism causes more problems then it creates.
*brain explodes*
Favoritism causes more problems then it solves too :) And it also causes more problems then it creates; as the problems are created initially, it then expounds upon that exponentially creating more problems as those are solved until the favoritism ends. And so your brain can reform, confident that even though it exploded, what shouldn't have made sense does and it can now deplode itself.
Basically, PS is like a school, and the GMs and devs are like the teachers... I'm sure you've all been in a situation where a teacher has punished an entire class for one student's misbehavior. It's the same deal here.
I've been in those situations, I've also gotten those teachers in a mountain of trouble with their bosses :P A bad analogy, as we aren't being punished here, and the topic isn't about the wipe, it's about how it was handled and how it sort of alienated players. I think it was created by bad communication and a number of people seeming rather uncaring in their "get over it"-esk comments.
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As a member of the Dragon Council and as someone who's been playing the game for a considerable period of time, I can understand why you feel you're at a level above the rest of the player base, but I also think it's pretty silly and unjustified.
Vue that you stated that 'people around thinks to me as a god' i can only remain in a level down than your Shalmaneser
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In english, cause essentially means the same thing as create. "I caused this problem" means the same thing as "I created this problem", so "I caused more problems than I created" is mathematically impossible.
As a member of the Dragon Council and as someone who's been playing the game for a considerable period of time, I can understand why you feel you're at a level above the rest of the player base, but I also think it's pretty silly and unjustified.
Vue that you stated that 'people around thinks to me as a god' i can only remain in a level down than your Shalmaneser
Oh Esserfin, that's because I am a god to my followers. Don't worry, worship of me is well deserved.
:-D
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For a while I thought this thread was healthy but by the time it has gotten to this length it has become unhealthy and monumentally wrong.
We wiped the stuff because we care about the players, not because we don't care. Leaving you alone with your billions of tria would have been the easiest thing, would have taken less time from us to figure out how to do it, would have saved us answering all the damned threads like this one. But we value having a world which is at least a little bit RP-consistent, which means that if billions appear then those billions need to go away.
The other thing you guys totally don't get is that there are thousands of you.
There are 15-20 part-time hobbyist developers on the team, and only about 6 of them are coders who can do anything about bugs. All six of us either have jobs, families, school or all of the above to deal with before we ever sit down and spend the last couple hours of the night before sleep working on PS. The forums, the game itself, the irc channels, the input from the GMs all create a constant blur of reports of cheating, bugs, exploits, GM abuse, forum mod abuse, build instruction errors, copyright violations, and so on. All we want to do is move the game forward. We do that by fixing things as we go and by adding new capabilities to the game... working in little chunks of time. This community would be impossible to deal with on a full-time basis due to its size, but with 10-15 hrs a week free, I want to spend most of that making PS better and not dealing with individual problems. If that sounds like I don't care, then you don't get it.
- Venge
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Well sir you where not privy to the conversation mentioned, you have no reason to say i rambled on. discussion in a forum is much different than a pm or chat room. the issue was discussed in a pithy manner. it was a personal comment disregarding the point and the issues being discussed. Communication is a two way street. If one can not be bothered to listen it matters not what the other is saying.
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Well sir you where not privy to the conversation mentioned, you have no reason to say i rambled on. discussion in a forum is much different than a pm or chat room. the issue was discussed in a pithy manner. it was a personal comment disregarding the point and the issues being discussed. Communication is a two way street. If one can not be bothered to listen it matters not what the other is saying.
Oh for the love of god.
The devs are listening to you. They just think you're wrong.
Edit: It's probable that I misunderstood Grwinn's post.
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hey Venge.
In the example I mentioned, you actually listened to us we didn't have to fight with you to be heard. The first dev., and I wish I could remember who it was, basically scoffed at us saying it was a trade issue with sacks.
Most peopel agree a wipe was necessary considering. More than a few of us program we know how hard it is to sift through code. We know if we can pin point something you can find the broken code faster. You actually listened. But from what I hear and what I have experienced our help and input are not wanted my the majority. That is why many do not think they matter, that is why there is the perception no one cares. There will be winners but it isnt hard to tell what is a whine and what is help in earnest.
*edit*
Zanz even when we are right. they think we are wrong, for the most part anyway. Even when what we have said turns out to be exactly what the problem was. we are wrong. We are wrong. we are chattel we are just wrong. I have accepted it. and I am not complaining. it is just an attempt to give some insight is all and I was asked to explain. I did.
[ Please avoid making one post right after the other in the same thread. Just "Modify" your first post to add more information. --Karyuu ]
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We wiped the stuff because we care about the players, not because we don't care.Leaving you alone with your billions of tria would have been the easiest thing, would have taken less time from us to figure out how to do it, would have saved us answering all the damned threads like this one. But we value having a world which is at least a little bit RP-consistent, which means that if billions appear then those billions need to go away.
The other thing you guys totally don't get is that there are thousands of you.
I was under the assumption that everyone here understood that the wipe was in our best interests and that there are thousands of us out here. This thread is much more about communication, both player to player and player to dev (and visa versa), and much less about "I lost my trias, I want them back".
I sympathize with you, Venge, I truly do--I've been in the position of having a mere 20 people giving me all their complaints and expecting instant gratification and found it more then a little stressful. It surprises me that you guys still work on this, in truth. Once I learn more then just Java (although I'm pretty proficient in Java, it's not great for games like this one :P) and am 18 years old, I'll see if I can join as a coder. I'm sure you guys could use the help.
Besides that, your post very well demonstrated something that the original poster was unhappy about, in the lumping of players together by those in charge without fully understanding the situation:
The post seems assume in the statement of "leaving you alone with your billions of tria would have been the easiest thing" means that everyone in the thread are complaining because their newfound, illicitly gained, riches disappeared, and the statement "But we value having a world which is at least a little bit RP-consistent, which means that if billions appear then those billions need to go away." again assumes that everyone who lost any sort of money must have either cheated or gotten it from a cheater to have enough money to lose some: both of which aren't true. I lost money that I obtained from a friend, who to my knowledge didn't cheat to get it. I could've just as easily lost the money had I spent my time mining gold to get that money--If I hadn't gotten it one way, I would've gotten it another--perhaps I wouldn't have lost just as much, as my friend was quite well off, but I still would have lost trias.
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Garon: Don't search for persecution in Vengeance's post - it's not there. You are not being lumped into a group of cheaters, and we have no such assumption as "Everyone was wiped because everyone cheated."
Gwinn: You didn't just seriously say that you are cattle. If you want to be taken seriously, then you have to stop making posts with such an attitude. Because right now I have a hard time even acknowledging your posts.
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Honorable people accept the fairly applied consequences of disreputable actions of others. Unfortunately life is rarely fairly applied. I think this was an acceptable compromise on the part of those with the responsibility for the game. It is easy for me of course because I didn't lose a thing as far as I can tell but I was calling for a complete wipe.
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Garon: Don't search for persecution in Vengeance's post - it's not there. You are not being lumped into a group of cheaters, and we have no such assumption as "Everyone was wiped because everyone cheated."
I'm not searching for persecution in Vengeance's post, I'm searching what could be misunderstood as persecution; His post has a rather angry and annoyed tone to it's writing: he use of bolding, language and a somewhat accusatory tone make up those (the "other thing you guys totally don't get" is an example of somewhat accusatory tone), and add that to something that could be misunderstood, and you have something that probably will be misunderstood. Misunderstanding is a result of bad communication, and bad communication can result in the perceived lumping of players--as I pointed out there.
I'm also not saying you have the assumption of "Everyone was wiped because everyone cheated", I'm saying that people can perceive it that way. Perception is just as important as what it really is, as what someone sees to be "true", they assume is the final and all powerful truth of the matter.
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Look at the other side, Garon and Gwinn.
If they didn't wipe, players would have complained about a bad economy.
They did wipe, and now players are complaining about...well...whatever they can think of.
Garon, I understand what you are saying, and for the most part, it's a good point. But the devs can't trust everybody, and to trust one player over another player would be looked upon as favouritism. And looking in to how everybody got the tria they had is unrealistic. The wipe is all they could do.
Gwinn, I don't mean to sound rude, but you are acting like you are a victim and it's quite annoying. I've yet to bring a point up to any of the devs and have it laughed at or scoffed at. I get the feeling English isn't your first language and so, I assume it was mere miscommunication. If not, then the forums is not the place to discuss Dev behavior.
I was really hoping the community would have the decency of ending this thread sooner. The way it's going will end in a lock.
And I do not see Venge's comment implying either of those things, I believe you are looking to much into it, Garon. The tone to me is annoyed and, after this thread, who can blame him?
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Garon: Maybe we're tired of having our posts dissected so much too? (http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/5071/wutnocu4.gif) There's no way I'm toning or watering down everything I say on this forum just in case someone has a crisis and misinterprets one of my sentences. So I'm personally asking you to stop your searching, especially after I have already told you that your concerns about being lumped into a cheater group are unwarranted.
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Well, what I see here, is that it happened as follows:
The Devs tried to find a way to prevent from a total wipe and they did in trying to keep the players stats, skills and inventory as much as possible.
But reading this thread shows, that a complete wipe would have brought less discussion, less complaining and less misunderstanding each other.
I must agree to Bilbous ... even if I would also not be lucky with a complete wipe, but it would have been the easier way to prevent all this .
Tolol
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Possibly, Tolol.
But the Devs care about us enough not to want to take everything.
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well, maybe I didn't make it clear.
I wanted to say that Devs do take care and that made it this complicated, because some people see this "taking care" as a punishment.
And this what this thread is about (in my opinion):
Some just didn't understand what happened and in which way ... I am happy to have what is left (even if I didn't understood the maths in it)
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Oh wow, sorry then, I misunderstood you.
Looking back on it, I agree with you :)
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First English is my first language THE FONT IS TOO SMALL I cant see on this forum and that is why I rarely post. in game i can adjust the font size and see just fine in irc i can see the words just fine. Hence, I communicate just fine. It is hard to type when you cant see. that is the problem here on the forums for me. I have said that before as well, thank you all for understanding.
second. I was asked to explain a prevailing attitude among many in game. I have done so only to be accused of whining. I have tried to address any reasonable question that has been posed to me. Don't worry I will not make this mistake again. I will not waste my breath any longer. I really didn't expect much anyway. Well sort it all out or not. it is just Par for the course.
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Holding control and scrolling will change the font size, atleast on Firefox Windows it does.
And the "prevailing attitude among many in game" would be the whining. You share the attitude, atleast from what I can gather.
I'd like to point out it was you who came here complaining, don't make it look like you are the victim now :)
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Garon, I understand what you are saying, and for the most part, it's a good point. But the devs can't trust everybody, and to trust one player over another player would be looked upon as favouritism. And looking in to how everybody got the tria they had is unrealistic. The wipe is all they could do.
And I do not see Venge's comment implying either of those things, I believe you are looking to much into it, Garon. The tone to me is annoyed and, after this thread, who can blame him?
Nobody can blame him for being annoyed; much of the thread was complaints about communication without any suggestion of solutions or volunteering to take their place. If I were in his place, I'd be annoyed too.
Perhaps I am looking too much into it, but that's what I first saw when looking at it with a neutral position--it seemed to be accusing any who hadn't sided with the Devs completely of being those with illicitly gained resources who wanted to keep them. I realize that they can't trust everybody or one player over another, and (again) I'm not disputing that the wipe was necessary, I support the wipe just as much as you do--just not the way that the announcements were written and how the player community responded to those who didn't necessarily support the wipe as much as everyone else.
Maybe we're tired of having our posts dissected so much too? There's no way I'm toning or watering down everything I say on this forum just in case someone has a crisis and misinterprets one of my sentences. So I'm personally asking you to stop your searching, especially after I have already told you that your concerns about being lumped into a cheater group are unwarranted.
Having what you say dissected is, unfortunately, what happens to those in power in any system where someone who can dissect what they say--looking for hidden meanings and ideas into the person themselves is often done. But, since you've asked, I will stop. And I had no concerns of being lumped in--your posts have done enough to assure me that is not the case; my concerns were with the communication itself, which could have been misinterpreted towards lumping in. Also, I apologize if I annoyed you.
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I understand what you are saying, Garon. And I agree, it could have been handled better.
But, I don't see any reason why it should. The wipe was necessary and, if anything, helped the game. And players complain. No matter how Venge had phrased the announcement, self-important people would still complain.
It's kind of disheartening to think that the players respect and trust the Devs so much that they need a PR guy to write their posts.
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Zanz even when we are right. they think we are wrong, for the most part anyway. Even when what we have said turns out to be exactly what the problem was. we are wrong. We are wrong. we are chattel we are just wrong. I have accepted it. and I am not complaining. it is just an attempt to give some insight is all and I was asked to explain. I did.
I don't think it's so black and white. It's unfortunate if that has been your experience.
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And players complain. No matter how Venge had phrased the announcement, self-important people would still complain.
It's kind of disheartening to think that the players respect and trust the Devs so much that they need a PR guy to write their posts.
Ahh, but had Venge phrased the announcement in a better way, those self important people would have much less ground for complaining. And yes, it is kind of disheartening--but, as I said before, I can't go either way on the Devs until I've seen their workings more clearly (and learn to trust them--I respect them already, as I can appreciate the complexity of this game), and perhaps I was playing devils advocate on this post, perhaps I wasn't--after all, for every horse of institution, there should be a gadfly, biting at it and getting it to move. I certainly wouldn't have started the post myself in order to mention the issues of wording that I did bring up, but it seemed like an appropriate place to do so.
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Those self-important people didn't have any ground :P
But, I understand where you are coming from. More edging the Devs to better themselves than you are putting them down. And I respect that.
I think we can lay this thread to rest now, though. All that there is to be said has been said. And most of us are still in good standing :P
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When one plays devil's advocate, it is advisable to say so.
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When one plays devil's advocate, it is advisable to say so.
Which completely defeats the entire point of playing devil's advocate. If one says beforehand "Oh, and I'm going to play devil's advocate now", people stop paying attention to them immediately. Believe me, I've tried it more then once--you get responses of "Oh don't", or people don't pay any attention.
I think we can lay this thread to rest now, though. All that there is to be said has been said.
Yes, it should be lain to rest. I doubt there's anything else that can be said while being incredibly constructive. This post included in "not being incredibly constructive" of course.
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Which completely defeats the entire point of playing devil's advocate. If one says beforehand "Oh, and I'm going to play devil's advocate now", people stop paying attention to them immediately. Believe me, I've tried it more then once--you get responses of "Oh don't", or people don't pay any attention.
Hmm. Not in my experience.
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Please direct your attention here:
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27428.msg311592#msg311592
Read it and follow it.
Thank you.
EDIT. Page has been updated. Please give it a read. (update is at the bottom of the page.)