PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Beliy on February 17, 2007, 12:11:24 pm
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I've often seen it stated that PS is not about power-leveling, and that players really ought to find better things to do than mindlessly camp mobs to level. The MOTD often encourages us to "try to complete all of our quests" and "try some crafting", "it is pointless to collect money", "help the government" and such. So I have trained my primary character to a level where he can fight a variety of rogues, dark rogues, and the brigand without dying. So, "good enough", I figure, "lets try some crafting and to complete some quests."
Now I'm finding a variety of quests where I'm asked to make a choice between paying a huge percentage of what tria I have left after recent events or produce ulber parts. So, I figure, let's go play with some ulbers. I march up to one, brandish a pair of 300/300's and start slashing. Damage I am able to inflict upon the beast with my weapon skill? ZERO :sweatdrop:
Damage I am able to inflict with my second realm Crystal Way magic? Not much....maybe if I survived long enough, I could take him in an hour or so.
Ah, Crystal Way, there is another matter. I've killed all sorts of mobs to earn the PP and mined seemingly forever to earn the tria to train to a point where I can use some common Crystal glyphs, and thought myself "accomplished." Until, that is, I did some more questing and got this glyph that I had no idea what to do with. Upon asking around, I was told that I would probably need to quadruple my Crystal skills to use it at all.
I am _not_ whining or complaining, mind you. I clearly need to go back to the arena and camp some spawn points to earn more tria and PP to increase my weapon and magic skill, I've no problem with that.
What I want to know, however, is in view of the anti-power leveling/spawn camping culture here, when will I know that I have crossed the line from "trying to complete some quests" to the cursed power-leveling????
Here is my real point...the Dev's are doing a great job on the game engine, the artists have done a spectacular job on the in-game aesthetics, and the settings team is really doing some great things as of late, my hats off to them _all_ -- but as PS is becoming more stable and may be _only_ a year or so away from that 1.0 milestone, I wonder if more attention ought to be given to the developing 'culture' of the mMorpg, the expectations that the Dev's have for how the players play the game and act in game, and how players relate to one another in game?
Respectfully,
Beliy
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It all really comes down to a lack of trade-skills.
Hopefully in the future with things like gem-cutting and leather-working and glass-blowing or even pickpocketing we'll be able to get just as much money and experience without even touching a weapon.
But as long as you take time to engage in some RP and events and the like, you should be able to avoid being labeled a power-leveler.
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my thoughts on powerleveling:
As long as you have a goal behind leveling, other than, to max all skills (other than for testing purposes), then that can never be considered powerleveling, no matter how much you level. If you are constantly levelnig becuase you need to be higher in order to to complete a quest or it's in your character's traits to be constantly working on their body, training, becomming a better soldier for a guard postition or what not, then I don't ever see this as powerleveling, but instead, simply playing the game as it was meant to be played, leveling with a purpose.
It should be that you need to train stats and skills as part of the game to complete quests and what not. Why else would we even have skills and stats in the first place if they weren't meant to be tarined then?
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My opinion on 0-levelling(No levelling at all):
My main character is supposed to developed as skills Ranged Weapons and Lah'ar. I could've trained her dagger and light armor skills just to have enough for maxing her INT and CHA(For obvious RP reasons) but I would rather not develop a skill OOCly that would not fit with her just for the sake of having a way of beating mobs for getting PPs. Same with mining for getting gold. I don't see nothing wrong with that myself, but I'll be glad to test the previously mentioned skills when they come to PS. Or in other words, SOON(TM)
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may be _only_ a year or so away from that 1.0 milestone
Pffffffffffft. The developers are moving as fast as they can, so yes, the game is improving quickly, but the grand scope that Talad has planed makes that idea completely rediculious. There's supposed to be eight layers of land, right now, we only have two cities on the first layer. It might not be done in one lifetime, let alone one year. :D
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I think that is a bit of a mistake LR, not because you should not do so but because most archers had some ability to defend themselves when their position got over-run. I am not sure what Lah'ar, a language perhaps but no matter, if it is a defensive skill, my point is pointless. Perhaps you might like to take up melee instead? Many archers have some facility with light armor but nothing says you have to have it and it is very expensive at higher levels.
Laanx help you when the Knights charge down at you, you brave warrior!
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I stand corrected... :-[
The post I was referring to did, if fact, state a "few" years away, not one as I said.
Beliy
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I think that is a bit of a mistake LR, not because you should not do so but because most archers had some ability to defend themselves when their position got over-run. I am not sure what Lah'ar, a language perhaps but no matter, if it is a defensive skill, my point is pointless. Perhaps you might like to take up melee instead? Many archers have some facility with light armor but nothing says you have to have it and it is very expensive at higher levels.
Laanx help you when the Knights charge down at you, you brave warrior!
Not a warrior duh! :P
Annera will be at most a strategist, and rarely engage into combat as it is not her main capability. And about that - Just add "Point Blank Shot" as a special subset skill of Ranged Weapons. About defensive things. You can best the way you wield a shield or weapon, but I'm not sure on how using an armor constantly will magically make it more resistent to damage as you improve your skill on wearing such armor(As if wearing armor was a extremely difficult to learn skill). In my opinion the armors skills(except for shield handling of course) should be taken off for the sake of realism and exchanged to DODGE, PARRY and BLOCK for example, that are much more realistic than a leather armor defensive capability multiplying tenfold from just you being beaten up. Also perhaps she might develop another school of psionics more defensively minded, like Argan.
Just something to add from other area: did the musketeers(from Dumas novel) wear some kind of armor or based their defense fully on dodging, parrying and blocking blows, something that the encumberance of armors would effect?
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I agree that armour skills shouldn't increase defence directly, but they should exist. The more you wear a certain type of armour, the more used to it you become, and the easier you can maneuver and compensate for its weight, or learn techniques of caring for it that most people don't know.
No matter how good someone is at dodging, if you stick them in heavy, cumbersome armour that they're not used to, they'll be screwed.
I'm not sure why I'm talking about this though :P
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Powerleveling- A concept created by "roleplayers" to generate a sanctimonious feeling about sitting around harnquists playing "make believe." It is generally used as a pjorative to discourage those who actually engage the features of the game.
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Powerleveling- A concept created by "roleplayers" to generate a sanctimonious feeling about sitting around harnquists playing "make believe." It is generally used as a pjorative to discourage those who actually engage the features of the game.
Due to the current pre-alpha state of the game, and due to the obviously unfinished and somewhat faulty features that come from this fact, there's little option besides "playing make believe" if your character isn't supposed to be a miner or a melee weapons fighter. Being a mage is possible, but is a pain in the *** training as one due to the way spells are underpowered in comparison to combat skills. Thus its alpha stage creates a unhealthy division between gameplay and roleplay in PS.
Here is one
Powerleveling - Anyone who stands hours and hours bashing rogues, etc. just to become a "Leet Warrior Dude" and make others "PWN4D" in duels, regarding nothing to roleplay. Or to RP a jerk type of character with fews capable of killing him.
Tester - Someone that tries a feature as a player with the intention of helping the development(or just of curiousity).
Roleplayer - Someone that spends time developing a consistent history for the characters and contributing to the immersion.
And @Xillix, if this is what the dev team thinks. I guess roleplayers aren't welcome, so I'll send an invitation for all the players of RUNESCAPE to try PS and leave as this game focus on the "features" rather than on Roleplay.
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I speak only for myself in this.
Roleplaying is not only welcomed but encouraged everywhere in ps.
I have made the argument before that a character should be (with their stats) what their role states they are. In cases where this is not possible of course make believe is acceptable. I have however seen far to much critiscism leveled against the people who enjoy leveling their characters. The duelists as well take flak that is undeserved. The game profoundly supports roleplaying and i encourage those people who many roleplayers would call powerlevelers to roleplay as well. We actually enforce roleplay when it is possible through the gms. For you to take what I said as anything but a little joking jab back in defense of the levelers and compare us with runescape is a bit knee-jerk imo.
In time more ways to gain exp will be provided as well as more skills there is nothing wrong with pretending where it is needed to fill in the gaps in developement. I do however find having an attitude toward people who choose not to do this is contrary to a positive community ethic. Npc responsiveness and realism is somewhat limited atm, just like one might "RP" being a great archer, another might take standing in front of a rogue for 12 hours to be the only way to facilitate their character's "having fought many battles to become a hardened warrior." "wax on, wax off, paint the fence, paint the fence." I see little difference between these two kinds of pretending. Except perhaps younger people tend toward the latter. Eventually most people who begin as powerlevelers end as rpers.
Utm for example does not have badassed fighting characters in game, if he did he would actually be able to back it up with his physical statistics. If your player is getting wealthy playing a beggar seems OOC to me. If your character is dumb as a box of rocks int stat should be kept low. etc etc.
I like the leet jerks who raise their characters to hieghts of physical prowess to be able to fight. So long as they are respecful of roleplaying conventions.
I also find PS roleplaying to have some very strange tendencies toward "godmodding" or outright irreverance for conflict with the settings.
There is all manner of settings material available through speaking with the "stupid" npcs it is all part of the game. All of it is to be tested.
It is just as easy to become a jerk through roleplay as it is to do so by bashing monsters. :devil:
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I agree that one should try to match one's stats to what one RPs. However, I don't think that it is possible to achieve this most of the time, at least in the current state of PS. There are the unimplemented things for one thing, and there also is the problem that even for the implemented things, there still tends to be need to fight. Otherwise, you don't get XP and money nearly as fast to make it even (and things are often being changed as well). Plus, and this is independant of the state PS is in, you usually don't get that much chance to RP what you level.
This is something that makes me wonder if levelling is the correct approach to RP at all. Just consider the ridiculous speed at which people can gain levels if they focus on it. Even if we were going by the insanely fast ingame clock, they go from peasant to master fighter in a few months. They get insanely rich in the process as well. Seriously, this is nowhere near realistic, and therefore it is impossible to RP it. Hence, even if you veil this into some sort of "My char is obsessed with becoming the best warrior" pseudo-RP explanation, it's not RP regardless of how you phrase it.
Thus, either you start pretending that you already are a master warrior right from the CC (with a gross mismatch in lvl vs. RP), or you have to significantly reduce your levelling speed.
IMO, players should have no influence on the levelling speed of their characters, and only get to pick the skills to level.
What makes matters worse is that PL (even if veiled in RP terms) effectively devaluates skill levels. This means that a PL increases the threshold for what must be considered "high level". Someone who RPs "a good warrior" will therefore have to kep on levelling in order to maintain their effective level, even if they never RP an increase in skill.
For all those reasons I view it as mandatory to RP consistently, realistically and believably, but matching stats to the RP is something that can be omitted or at least delayed. I, for one, am not willing to put up with days of grinding just to increase some stat, eg. END, to what I RP, especially not after a wipe. If anything, I do it gradually, when I have nothing better to do because, frankly, for most characters grinding is totally OOC. It has taken me about one year to stat-wise approach what I RP, even though I by far don't RP high levels, and none of the grinding could be done IC.
Of course, if you are not sure about your ability to maintain consistent and reasonable RP, then it is better to use the stats for guidance. However, as stated, the stats themselves can easily lead to and support god-moding (For example, I don't think Ulbernauts can realistically be killed by a lone fighter, and therefore have severe doubts about the RP quality of those who "kill Ulbers for fun").
All in all, PS should significantly reduce the reliance on skills and stats, and instead actually focus on RP (meaning flexibility in what to do and how to do it, extensive interaction with the environment, visuals, etc., not merely hiding information).
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It all really comes down to a lack of trade-skills.
Hopefully in the future with things like gem-cutting and leather-working and glass-blowing or even pickpocketing we'll be able to get just as much money and experience without even touching a weapon.
But as long as you take time to engage in some RP and events and the like, you should be able to avoid being labeled a power-leveler.
You still have to slay beasts to earn the PP for your craft training, no way around that in the current system.
Powerleveling as it is derisively called, is a neccesity in the PS world if you want to actually take advantage of all the game has to offer. Some great posts in this thread btw. I agree with most all that's been said.
Seytra, Alexander the Great went from an unknown boy to master of most of the known world in a matter of a few short years. Within his first few months of leadership he'd proven himself a master tactician and fierce warrior of great skill. Because he had massive natural talent, and an unmatched desire to succeed.
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Seytra, Alexander the Great went from an unknown boy to master of most of the known world in a matter of a few short years. Within his first few months of leadership he'd proven himself a master tactician and fierce warrior of great skill. Because he had massive natural talent, and an unmatched desire to succeed.
Are you sure that his actual fighting skills were that great? However, even if this is the case, he would have been one in hundreds, even thousands of years. In PS, though, there are hundreds or thousands in one year. Plus, they take only ingame weeks or maybe months, and he took years.
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This comment is not strictly on topic as it is an observation of the flip-side, what you might call power role-playing I hesitate to call it god-modding as it would apply to any role player who refuses to train. If you have no combat skills and you do not always hire a bodyguard when traveling in the wilds outside of town, it seems to me that you are taking advantage of the game mechanics no less than lone ulber hunters. What I mean by this is that you are relying on the fact that the wandering monsters do not wander and even if they get pulled from their spawn point none of them can catch a character who is running. Does that make any sense?
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Does all characters have to be miners and fighters or it'll be godmodding?
About hiring a bodyguard.
Not every character is rich enough for that, and I believe most of places are relatively safe, and if the movement speed of the monsters is the way it is now, almost anyone can outrun an Ulbernaut or Trepor
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That was the point though all critters move at the same rate and all characters can move faster than that. There are trepors in front of the passes to both Ojaveda and the Bronze Doors standing around stupidly. It might be possible to go back and forth between towns but realistically attacks should occur and the defenseless should get mangled or killed on occasion.
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I agree that there are risks to travelling that aren't reflected in the game ATM. Yet, we are talking about the connections between major places in Yliakum, Hydlaa (capital) and Ojaveda (trading center), so they can be assumed to be pretty safe IMO. The BD section is a different matter as it will be a lot further away in the end, so travelling to or from there often is unrealistic by itself. Deviating from the roads is something else entirely.
Also, in terms of RP, one doesn't travel as often as one does in terms of game mechanics IMO. I don't usually RP travelling often, anyway, even though I could.
Also, what are we talking about here? Are we talking about that a librarian will likely not travel alone unless it's really safe or really pressing, or are we merely talking about players who RP fighting skills that their characters don't have? In the first case I agree, but in the latter case I obviously disagree (if anything, it could be seen as countering imprecise game mechanics by imprecise game mechanics). For example, I still miss a way to do an emergency sprint. Right now, you might be too exhausted to move while the Ulbernaut walks towards you. I don't think that'd happen IRL.
My view may certainly be coloured by the fact that I find combat in RPGs to be a bother most of the time, rather than entertaining, because it becomes excessive rather quick.
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That was the point though all critters move at the same rate and all characters can move faster than that. There are trepors in front of the passes to both Ojaveda and the Bronze Doors standing around stupidly. It might be possible to go back and forth between towns but realistically attacks should occur and the defenseless should get mangled or killed on occasion.
Commerce would be halted in this case, and people would hardly leave their cities making things stagnant(Unless some kind of public or private transport system where you could buy tickets for travels - perhaps carriages pulled by ryunaaks - were the main transportation method). How could Ojaveda be a bustling commercial center if most are too scared to leave their cities?
And in my opinion most if not all powerful hostile creatures should be placed on the proximities of the entrance to the Stone Labyrinths(I'm not sure if the amount of creatures inside the arena that spawn continually could be considered as IC).
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Take a look at the Silk Road ( the real one ) it traveled through terrain with some of the most ferocious beasts on earth. They did it by bunching together in caravans and hiring warriors. Others did it by being able to fight, some relied on luck. Not all survived.
I really do not want to get into a big thing here but there are rogues -- one in the pass outside of Hydlaa and five last I looked in the area on the other side of that pass on the way to Oja too that stand around calling each other pinhead when realistically they would be setting traps and picking off the easy prey. If you want to role play fighting skills you really should be able to fight what you can reasonably expect to come across. Unless perhaps you occasionally role-play the encounter with such things and end up in the DR once in a while but then you can just role play going to that town and never actually do it in the first place.
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so I'll send an invitation for all the players of RUNESCAPE to try PS and leave as this game focus on the "features" rather than on Roleplay.
Baaaad idea. I thought I just escaped that horror, don't bring it after me :P
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Other then that, I think a PL'er is someone who levels a lot without a good reason, or with an unoriginal one. I can see someone working extremely hard (obsessively) for a short while to get to be able to kill someone (one person or a small, specific group) who they hate but cannot kill. I can see someone maintaining their character at a high skill level because they are a soldier, and are constantly training whenever they are not working, so that they can continue to be more and more valuable to prospective employers. I cannot see someone constantly training just to beat everybody else, or "be the best", unless they were a member of some group that holds competitions often among it's members (such as a gladitorial group where position in the group, and therefore the lucrativeness of the matches you take part in, is determined by a monthly tournament or the like). It doesn't make sense for someone to work hard for no gain other then being better then others (and don't talk about the loot, that's not really IC either, since how many rogues would have silverweaves and not have retired? Yet a thug and a rogue have both had silverweave short swords on their dead bodies when I searched them... strange, isn't it?). If they can come up with a relatively new reason that makes sense to an rper, then it's IC training. If they can't, then it's PLing.
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Well, Ojaveda itself is infested with rogues, something that is by far not realistic either. It has the distinct feel of a doomed city, with most shops deserted, rogues wandering freely and not a single guard in sight. Does this mean that Brintec is a fierce fighter, so that he not only survives without bodyguard, but even is able to keep his shop open without any defense at all?
Also, the distance between Hydlaa and Ojaveda is short (though longer than it is ATM). Also, the first and second levels are more or less farmland according to the settings. This means that most places are not infested with wild beasts.
All in all it seems like the MOBs got put there because there isn't much space.
So what can one expect to come accross? IMO, at night, a clacker or a rat. Anything else would be a rare thing on the major roads. In daylight, probably a lot less even. Both Ojaveda and Hydlaa have a garrison, so they'll make sure the vincinity of their cities and the important roads are free from marauding bands, too.
@ Garon: Agreed. And yes, the loot distribution indeed makes one wonder at times. Especially if the rogue has a silverweave sword, then how come he didn't do the appropriate damage? Was he not using it because he feared to degrade it? ;) That, and that you can loot money from a Trepor (swallowed it alongside the original owner?)...
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Actually I thought power leveling referred to an activity whereby a lowlevel character groups with a high level one in order to leech xps off of them but the prevailing sentiment of this thread seems to be anyone who spends more time fighting the most valuable creatures with respect to pp than doing anything else. What then do you call someone who spends the majority of their time crafting? Is that not a facet of the same thing?
As far as Oja goes maybe it is actually a rogue town and people doing business there are either members of the gang or pay protection.
Never any wolves or cougars eating livestock in farm country you say?
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I define power-leveling as whatever I happen to disapprove of at a particular moment in time.
These days I don't really see in terms of "roleplayers versus powerlevelers". Now I'm all about "in character behaviour and motivations versus out of character behaviour and motivations".
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That's the usual definition of PL, yes. However, in PS "PL" has acquired the meaning that you extracted from the thread. PL in the original sense does also take place in PS, though.
Regarding the wild animals stealing livestock: this certainly can be assumed to happen in PS. However, won't these animals rather flee when the farmer approaches them than attack, and avoid fire (campfires)? Also, this likely is much less of a problem (if one at all) in the center of the empire than in the outer regions. Especially if you consider that the settings says that the first two levels are farmed extensively, being the only farmable soil in Yliakum. This means that most, if not all, natural habitat of wild animals would have been converted to farmland so they would be more or less extinct. Also, if the inhabitants were able to exclude everyone else from the first two levels once upon a time, to the degree that it almost lead to a war, then they surely can remove trepors from the main roads?
Edit: also, we can safely assume that there will be taverns scattered around the main roads, so travellers are safe at night even if there are clackers or rats roaming the place at nighttime.
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And yet when you actually make the trek between you see a lot of land that is unsuited for crops, good for grazing perhaps and then there is this
By those statements, there should be no barrens, only endless farms and ranches.
No, it states that farming is only possible on the first two levels. It doesn't state that farming is possible *everywhere* on the first two levels. The first two levels HAVE arable land: they're just not completely comprised of it.
Also we have had stipulated a medieval setting which to me implies that the large beasts have not yet been hunted to (near-)extinction and the roads are only as safe as the last patrol left them and how long ago that was. A large predator might take his chances on the lone farmer if he was hungry enough or had some equivalent to rabies.
I am still interested in your opinion of the crafters place. Is a power leveler merely someone who focuses on combat skills? or does it matter if he fights to get pps which he spends on crafting? I do not suppose it does, but what if he does nothing but craft?
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And yet when you actually make the trek between you see a lot of land that is unsuited for crops, good for grazing perhaps and then there is thisBy those statements, there should be no barrens, only endless farms and ranches.
No, it states that farming is only possible on the first two levels. It doesn't state that farming is possible *everywhere* on the first two levels. The first two levels HAVE arable land: they're just not completely comprised of it.
Also we have had stipulated a medieval setting which to me implies that the large beasts have not yet been hunted to (near-)extinction and the roads are only as safe as the last patrol left them and how long ago that was. A large predator might take his chances on the lone farmer if he was hungry enough or had some equivalent to rabies.
(http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/6561/shot137od0.th.jpg) (http://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shot137od0.jpg)
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Question. If Rp is encouraged and you don't want to encourage powerleveling. Isn't it strange to make several quests that ask for ulberparts? seeing it's really hard killing those at lower levels?
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"Powerleveling" here means building your character with OOC motivations. If you get a quest that asks you to train your character to be able to kill a powerful beast, that's not powerleveling. That's playing the game :)
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Question. If Rp is encouraged and you don't want to encourage powerleveling. Isn't it strange to make several quests that ask for ulberparts? seeing it's really hard killing those at lower levels?
Suicide mission.
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"Powerleveling" here means building your character with OOC motivations. If you get a quest that asks you to train your character to be able to kill a powerful beast, that's not powerleveling. That's playing the game :)
But unfortunately the current limitations force one to restrict the development of the character to some melee weapons and armor mostly for killing such beast. Also if you see no reason for your character accepting such quest(Remember that taking off the heart of a creature would be something certain types of characters would refuse to do as it's gruesome) you should ignore it.
Suicide mission.
As you can see, it's difficult for a farm worker to collect enough money for good equipment like swords, armor, etc. to venture into the Stone Labyrinths. Nevertheless, some try to save every Tria they can to pass on to their sons so that the son may search for a better life, which often sends them into trouble. This "killing-by-kindness" is one of the reasons that city is never overpopulated.
I guess it's not the only "killing by kindness" that happens.
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And yet when you actually make the trek between you see a lot of land that is unsuited for crops, good for grazing perhaps and then there is thisNo, it states that farming is only possible on the first two levels. It doesn't state that farming is possible *everywhere* on the first two levels. The first two levels HAVE arable land: they're just not completely comprised of it.
If we're honest, there is not a single field, let alone farm, to be seen anywhere. In fact, there is nothing to sustain life. I'm not really concerned about the current wilderness maps; they certainly represent only a small fraction of the land, and I think that they'll be replaced eventually (IOW, they're like that because farmland would be boring, and you can't scatter MOBs around it without immediate questions popping up).
Also we have had stipulated a medieval setting which to me implies that the large beasts have not yet been hunted to (near-)extinction and the roads are only as safe as the last patrol left them and how long ago that was.
The romans have deforested large areas with their need for wood, and Yliakum certainly has a pressing need for farmland. Yliakum also isn't very large, a kingdom, not a continent, and the "borders" (bronze doors) are well secured.
A large predator might take his chances on the lone farmer if he was hungry enough or had some equivalent to rabies.
That is true, and I already agreed that there still are dangers involved in travelling. However, I think that almost all travellers who remain on the main roads can be expected to actually arrive in reasonable condition.
I am still interested in your opinion of the crafters place. Is a power leveler merely someone who focuses on combat skills? or does it matter if he fights to get pps which he spends on crafting? I do not suppose it does, but what if he does nothing but craft?
The crafting system seems much more balanced than the combat system to me. Possibly I'm wrong, and combat is simply more visible and has more annoying side effects than crafting. However, crafting requires, compared to combat, much more prerequisites. You can't keep on crafting, as you need resources. Crafting takes time as well. I don't know how fast someone can level by crafting, but given that there are preciously few crafters, all of whom seem to RP, it can't be that efficient.
Also, I view gaining XP from fighting in order to level in crafting to be more acceptable than fighting to level fighting, because of the speed and yield difference (this will change when crafting becomes feasible on it's own). Those doing this are merely trying to, as fast as possible, match their stats to their RP (I've not met someone claiming to be an uber crafter yet, but I might have just missed them). IOW, it shouldn't be required to boost crafting by fighting, but it is right now.
ATM I don't think that crafting PL is possible, but eventually it will be, and then it will be similar to fighting. Not to become the best in PvP, but to be able to make the most high-end stuff (and thus money). Garon's summary/definition applies to crafting, too. When either (or both) levelling speed and actual levels become unrealistic WRT the character and/or in general, then it ceases being RP and becomes PL.
@Karyuu / Ulbernaut: suicide mission sounds much more reasonable than "level until you can kill it" (implying that you take a few trips to the DR which is supposedly hard to get out in the process). The only thing that can be said in defense of such "quests" is that one doesn't have to fight alone, or at all, if one has money or friends or both. Seriously, a medium Tefusang should be about the only thing that a single char can kill in direct combat and without specialised equipment. Sorry to say this, but I think things are too much motivated by a "give the highlevels something to do" motto than an RP one.
Edit: If being able to kill an Ulbernaut is sort of expected now, then this is a good example of level inflation already in progress.
Also, it can in itself be, as has been stated, OOC to accept a quest. Likewise, it can be OOC to level until you can fulfill a quest. I'm inclined to think that a lot of quests are accepted and completed for OOC reasons rather than IC reasons. Winch area. Helmets. Pets.
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It used to be that to bring down an ulbernaught, you'd get together with 10 of your friends and leave Hydlaa en mass for the Ojaveda hills. It as a big hassel but it was more fun than the way it's done now. I'm guessing though that there will be creatures far more powerful than ulbernaughts in the future....
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I only saw that happening a while after I started to go hunt rogues. OFcourse the rogue wasn't that far away walking and PPs were divided quite nicely among the group. This was ofcourse when PP was the thing that was harder to get then money was through mining. platinum then I believe.
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I think I might be what you consider a power leveler because if I am going to do a lot of typing while exchanging ideas I would rather post on the forum as is plainly evident. And yet I haven't leveled anything since before .017, of course it didn't take long to go from that to .018 so that is not saying too much. I do however prefer to do than talk, the most I have done as far as role play goes is try to couch my speech in contextual terms, spin the odd yarn about kran origins and amuse some fenkis at the crafting table by humming a nonsense song for ten or fifteen minutes. I have done a lot of exploring and dabbled at the quests but by and large my major occupation has been training, mostly combat skills but also a little bit of crafting. My stats are maxed (unless the max has changed recently) and I have two skills maxed as far as I know, light armor and weapon repair. I happen to like the character progression aspect of these games and I do not see increasing my backstory as concrete progression. What I mean by that is I do not recall everything I have done nor do I think if I had been a power roleplayer I would remember all the events I had participated in (my back story if you will) but I can look at my character and see maxed stats and advanced skills. Now it is true I could keep a journal of my back story but that would be time spent doing things that are more like work than play to me. So I don't. I do what I like and that is advance my character is it OOC? most probably Would I play any other type of character possibly but there would need to be a reason some way that would make it enjoyable to me.
Having said all this, I do not think I am really the kind of power leveler you and other object to because I do not go around in game bragging about my skills, they may come up from time to time when talking with like minded players in the context of "Can I repair this with this much repair skill?" and I do not pvp. I just go around and do my thing. I would advance my magic skills but magic seems a little pointless at the moment and I haven't found all the quests for glyphs (possibly because my skills are not high enough) and I do not buy stuff on the Auction market as most of those thing are acquired by people redoing quests just for profit. I think these people are akin to power levelers ( the objectionable kind) because they hog quests and make it more difficult for others to get them.
I would advance my crafting but it is too slow.
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I hold it as true that it is less significant if you yourself remember your story and it is meaningful if others remember it for you. It indicates impact and affect.
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Stats and skills are an RPG element, so I don't care if someone is focusing on raising them, as long as they are not outright cheating/exploiting.
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It used to be that to bring down an ulbernaut, you'd get together with 10 of your friends and leave Hydlaa en mass for the Ojaveda hills. It as a big hassel but it was more fun than the way it's done now. I'm guessing though that there will be creatures far more powerful than ulbernauts in the future....
Sorry, but you've been saying that for such a long time I couldn't resist anymore :P
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What's worse is that I used to write Harniquist instead of Harnquist.
In my defense, older forms of a language tend to include many alternate spellings of the same word.
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Seytra, Alexander the Great went from an unknown boy to master of most of the known world in a matter of a few short years. Within his first few months of leadership he'd proven himself a master tactician and fierce warrior of great skill. Because he had massive natural talent, and an unmatched desire to succeed.
Are you sure that his actual fighting skills were that great? However, even if this is the case, he would have been one in hundreds, even thousands of years. In PS, though, there are hundreds or thousands in one year. Plus, they take only ingame weeks or maybe months, and he took years.
Yes, Alexander led his elite guard from the front. He was a warrior-general of the first order. There are many others like him i can point to that were legendary warriors by(or even before) their 20s. Ghengis Khan is one you might have heard of before. So is Mike Tyson. ;)
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But what about Seytra's last point? :)
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Yes, Alexander led his elite guard from the front. He was a warrior-general of the first order. There are many others like him i can point to that were legendary warriors by(or even before) their 20s. Ghengis Khan is one you might have heard of before. So is Mike Tyson. ;)
Fedor Emelianenko ;)
I'm sure most people know who Temujin is.
Mike Tyson = washed up "legendary" psychopath/ex-convict/ear-biter, not a warrior.
Anyway, not going to argue about this one, since it's borderline off-topic. Just wanted to quickly point it out. :P
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Also, it can in itself be, as has been stated, OOC to accept a quest. Likewise, it can be OOC to level until you can fulfill a quest. I'm inclined to think that a lot of quests are accepted and completed for OOC reasons rather than IC reasons. Winch area. Helmets. Pets.
You can find IC justification for pretty much anything though, with few exceptions. Repeatedly going up to people and challenging them at a drop of a hat and then calling them names if they don't want to fight, it gets to a point where it's either OOC or just bad roleplaying. In either case it's obnoxious.
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To me, a powerleverer comes in several forms.
One is the type of player that cares nothing for the story, nor the development of their character. The 'goal' of the game to them is just to get to the top in everything they can.
The second is the type who tries to stay ahead of other players. Note I said players, not characters. The game to them is beating other players, not overcoming other characters. Their mindset is "I want to beat Bob from Kansas", not "I shall strive to best my rival, Sayita (Bob's character)". The game is a race.
Then there are the RP powerlevelers. These are sometimes 'forced' PLers. These people have a set vision of what they want their character to achieve, but go beyond that for OOC reasons. Much of the time it is out of pure boredom, having to level one ability to support an unrelated one, or wanting to see higher level features. After they get to the higher level, a lot of them will not RP that they are at that level, but hold to their original vision.
PowerQuesting falls under this last category more often than not, though it is a great part of the other two as well. I say that questing is ooc for the main reason that I do not know a single person who will go up to a relative stranger and ask if they need help, or ask them for a quest. It feels so unnatural to me, I simply can not do it.
One way to tell if a player is powerleveling or powerquesting is the way the talk to other players. If they use numbers and talk about maxing certain skills, or ask if you have done X quest yet, or keep a notched belt of how many quests they did complete, then you know they have been doing a bit of powerleveling/questing.
The last type of powerlever is the pre-created character. These pure RP folks start playing as a more powerful character right from the get-go, and occ PL in their RP off time to get to that level. They completely disregard that leveling, as their character was already -at- that level when they started. A lot of these folks never even get the leveling finished, and become known as the pretenders, or godmodders if they get too greedy in their 'trained' skills. Most good RPers will go along with these folks as long as they keep their supposed skill levels low enough.
A great deal of roleplayers are migrating to this last type, as they wish to play something other than the newb to hero stereotypical role. I have heard the phrase "I am not even going to level after the wipe" from a large number of people. This is disturbing, and is what is causing the huge rift between them and the other types of players. Something -is- askew, and it is hard to put a finger on.
By the way, I play a different version of the last. When I create my characters, I play that the stats I receive -are- at the max, and they can get no higher. No leveling is needed, and would actually be out of character. Some may think of that as lazy, but then, they have never played the type of character I do. ;) And Xillix is correct. If I was to play a higher level character, I -would- have the stats to back that up. Perhaps when the game becomes less geared towards PLing up to be a fighter/hero/ulberslayer, you will see some more advanced characters from the moon.
Second by the way: The only type of player I have a problem with is the godmodder, who is not a PLer at all most of the time. You could almost call them a powerplayer, as it is their aim to be better than other players, but without ever doing anything.
There is room for every other type of player (except grievers and leeters), and I have said before that they are ALL needed. Well… perhaps the maxxed out-good at everything characters could be fewer and further between, as they do demean the players who do set limits for themselves, and try to play just a certain role. That is something for the wish list, though.
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The last type of powerlever is the pre-created character. These pure RP folks start playing as a more powerful character right from the get-go, and occ PL in their RP off time to get to that level. They completely disregard that leveling, as their character was already -at- that level when they started. A lot of these folks never even get the leveling finished, and become known as the pretenders, or godmodders if they get too greedy in their 'trained' skills. Most good RPers will go along with these folks as long as they keep their supposed skill levels low enough.
Yeah, I was just going to say that that's probably more often described as godmoding rather than powerlevelling.
I don't think it's OOC to level up. Why is it OOC for your character to evolve and learn new skills? The problem right now is that as you learn new skills, you don't forget old ones.
Godmoders bug me sometimes, but I think it's necessary for roleplay sometimes. You yourself had a character who was a ghost, and another character who's the bartender. (And possibly one who sees the future and talks about stars, but I'm not sure whether or not that was you.) All three of these characters are operating outside of the settings, and could be said to be godmoding, but it can work to enrich roleplaying. That said, there are a lot of examples of godmoding that are just silly.
The other things you define as powerlevelling is for the most part people playing the game and doing everything there is to do. It's something people do for fun, not for roleplay, and so it could be seen as OOC. But I don't think that "powerlevelling" is the best way to describe such activities. Heck, I'm not sure I even know what powerlevelling is anymore. It used to mean something but now it's so easy to max out your character that it's lost most of its meaning.
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In Yliakum ranged weapons never were developed by a strange reason, sticks and stone, swords and shields.
So roleplaying a character skilled with ranged weapons is godmodding and against the settings.
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In Yliakum ranged weapons never were developed by a strange reason, sticks and stone, swords and shields.
So roleplaying a character skilled with ranged weapons is godmodding and against the settings.
It's against the game mechanics but not against the settings.
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Hmmm. Perhaps I should have defined what I see as not powerleveling/questing.
A person who goes through the natural evolution of their character, and finds relatively realistic reason for their character to strive to be better (even in a rapid 24/7 training way) is not a power-lever to me. A person who does not go actively seeking quests, running from NPC to NPC, but instead finds them in natural exploration, is not a power-quester to me. Someone who hears about a new realm to explore, yet does not go there instantly because their character would not have any reason to fly off to that region is not a power-explorer to me.
The fact is, anyone who does anything for their own benefit as a player, despite what their character's personality and motivation, is a power-something to me. I think to a small extent, this is what the Devs are trying to curb by forcing players to do a small story before seeing the Winch. Despite the player wanting to see the new area, their -character- has to go through the steps to want to go there as well. Of course, this has just triggered more powerquesting. :)
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Everything anyone does is for their own benefit, the character is just the means to an end.
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The only economical activities are mining, crafting(of only some kinds of weapons and shields) and metallurgy, no one needs to eat.
Thus roleplaying a cook, gemcutter or anything else is some kind of power-levelling and godmodding.
Defining the limit between what is decent roleplay and what is godmodding based on the current unfinished and flawed game engine is a very wise idea.
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No. Godmodding is giving your character godlike powers, such as being able to do anything, dodge anything, and always having the answer to any given problem in your back pocket. Goddmoding is givving your character abilities beyond the norm. Pretending your character is a good herbalist or cook is, well, just pretending. Goddmoding will irritate those around you, while pretending just adds atmosphere.
Now, being a dimwitted barkeep, or a powerless ghost is not godmodding. It is actualy underplaying your character's abilities. Now, If one was to play the best barkeep in the world who could pour you a drink and toss it across the room without spilling it, or a ghost that could set things on fire, and take over the mind of anyone it chose, that would be godmodding.
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No. Godmodding is giving your character godlike powers, such as being able to do anything, dodge anything, and always having the answer to any given problem in your back pocket. Goddmoding is givving your character abilities beyond the norm. Pretending your character is a good herbalist or cook is, well, just pretending. Goddmoding will irritate those around you, while pretending just adds atmosphere.
Now, being a dimwitted barkeep, or a powerless ghost is not godmodding. It is actualy underplaying your character's abilities. Now, If one was to play the best barkeep in the world who could pour you a drink and toss it across the room without spilling it, or a ghost that could set things on fire, and take over the mind of anyone it chose, that would be godmodding.
Well, there isn't exactly a way to be officially hired by the tavern...
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Yeah, so I will delete my characters because I am "pretending" to overcome the limitations of the game engine.
And make just miners and fighters, nothing else
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It used to be that to bring down an ulbernaught, you'd get together with 10 of your friends and leave Hydlaa en mass for the Ojaveda hills. It as a big hassel but it was more fun than the way it's done now. I'm guessing though that there will be creatures far more powerful than ulbernaughts in the future....
I have- and still do- organize such hunts with the young warriors of The Order.
Short of maybe six of us, gang attack tactics are still a neccesity. VERY few warriors of the realm can fight an uber 1 v 1 and survive. Probably 50 at most. Stats alone are not enough....you have to be able to move and fight as a duelist as well.
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Stats alone are not enough....you have to be able to move and fight as a duelist as well.
Oh god. You're advocating hit and run attacks, aren't you? Also known as cheating?
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You can do "hit and run" strikes in another game called NWN, but of course you will have to deal with "Attacks of Opportunity" in most cases, except if you have a really good "Tumble" skill.
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Stats alone are not enough....you have to be able to move and fight as a duelist as well.
Oh god. You're advocating hit and run attacks, aren't you? Also known as cheating?
LOL....there is NO other way to beat an AI up uber 1 v 1 without massive pot consumption.
Hit and run cheating...LOL!!!!!
Sorry sports fan, "mouse click and watch" DONT get it done for me. Apparently the devs are in full agreement, since they've so wisely included such an effective mobile combat system into the game. :)
BTW, when your life is on the line, there is no such thing as cheating(within the confines of the game engine). Or didnt they teach you that in your RP class? But to me, "cheating" would be the massive use of pots required to just stand like a statue of granite and hammer an uber dead with one blow....which is the only way to do it from a static position.
LOL.
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LOL....there is NO other way to beat an AI up uber 1 v 1 without massive pot consumption.
Hit and run cheating...LOL!!!!!
Sorry sports fan, "mouse click and watch" DONT get it done for me. Apparently the devs are in full agreement, since they've so wisely included such an effective mobile combat system into the game. :)
BTW, when your life is on the line, there is no such thing as cheating(within the confines of the game engine). Or didnt they teach you that in your RP class? But to me, "cheating" would be the massive use of pots required to just stand like a statue of granite and hammer an uber dead with one blow....which is the only way to do it from a static position.
LOL.
LOL... Massive pot consumption is also sorta cheating. It's at the very least OOC, and it will eventually be eliminated from the game. The devs are working to eliminate hit and run attacks as well. We've already seen major changes to the combat system in the last update. They didn't put it in the game on purpose - it's an exploit, akin to the old days of attacking rogues from behind objects so they couldn't attack you back. Your life is not on the line - we're talking about a game here. And maybe you aren't supposed to be able to kill the most powerful creatures in the game all by yourself. More to the point, you're exploiting certain mechanics of the game in order to circumvent other mechanics of the game.
LOL.
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LOL....there is NO other way to beat an AI up uber 1 v 1 without massive pot consumption.
Hit and run cheating...LOL!!!!!
Sorry sports fan, "mouse click and watch" DONT get it done for me. Apparently the devs are in full agreement, since they've so wisely included such an effective mobile combat system into the game. :)
BTW, when your life is on the line, there is no such thing as cheating(within the confines of the game engine). Or didnt they teach you that in your RP class? But to me, "cheating" would be the massive use of pots required to just stand like a statue of granite and hammer an uber dead with one blow....which is the only way to do it from a static position.
LOL.
LOL... Massive pot consumption is also sorta cheating. It's at the very least OOC, and it will eventually be eliminated from the game. The devs are working to eliminate hit and run attacks as well. We've already seen major changes to the combat system in the last update. They didn't put it in the game on purpose - it's an exploit, akin to the old days of attacking rogues from behind objects so they couldn't attack you back. Your life is not on the line - we're talking about a game here. And maybe you aren't supposed to be able to kill the most powerful creatures in the game all by yourself. More to the point, you're exploiting certain mechanics of the game in order to circumvent other mechanics of the game.
LOL.
Massive pot consumption should provoke overdose, period.
And of course, reduce some of the stats and give several "Attacks of Opportunity" for the other duelist, if the other one doesn't kill the dude, the excess of pot definitively will.
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Massive pot consumption should provoke overdose, period.
It's impossible to overdose on pot, but overdosing on potions is an interesting idea.
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powerleveling..if ya like it go play almost every rpg on market pal
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LOL....there is NO other way to beat an AI up uber 1 v 1 without massive pot consumption.
Hit and run cheating...LOL!!!!!
Sorry sports fan, "mouse click and watch" DONT get it done for me. Apparently the devs are in full agreement, since they've so wisely included such an effective mobile combat system into the game. :)
BTW, when your life is on the line, there is no such thing as cheating(within the confines of the game engine). Or didnt they teach you that in your RP class? But to me, "cheating" would be the massive use of pots required to just stand like a statue of granite and hammer an uber dead with one blow....which is the only way to do it from a static position.
LOL.
LOL... Massive pot consumption is also sorta cheating. It's at the very least OOC, and it will eventually be eliminated from the game. The devs are working to eliminate hit and run attacks as well. We've already seen major changes to the combat system in the last update. They didn't put it in the game on purpose - it's an exploit, akin to the old days of attacking rogues from behind objects so they couldn't attack you back. Your life is not on the line - we're talking about a game here. And maybe you aren't supposed to be able to kill the most powerful creatures in the game all by yourself. More to the point, you're exploiting certain mechanics of the game in order to circumvent other mechanics of the game.
LOL.
I think you're completely wrong about the Devs intent, and youre also wrong that any of the changes have made "hit and run" as you call it impossible. If anything it just made it so that you have to be even more skilled than before. I am pretty well versed in both systems, and to me the "new" mobile combat system is in some ways SUPERIOR than the old one.
I predict mobile warfare will be with PS to the day it hits 1.0, and beyond. Becasue anything else is just plain stupid, and an affront to reality. No one but you wants a mouse click and watch interface. The devs know this full well.
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Actually theres a thread somewhere about hit & run not going to exist forever, eventually battling will be between stats and luck, mostly first strike. It will still prove interesting as to how the dueling system will be played out.
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Actually theres a thread somewhere about hit & run not going to exist forever, eventually battling will be between stats and luck, mostly first strike. It will still prove interesting as to how the dueling system will be played out.
It would be more interesting being between stats, a bit of luck and mainly(something that usually is only found on turn-combat RPGs): Tactics (Special combat skills, terrain advantage, etc.)
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Agreed, slightly... Though I think ti would be more interesting if they made animations for blocking, dodging, and blades actually meeting, so as to make the battle appear more interesting, To give it skill perhaps various styles of attacks should be implemnted, not bloody, normal aggresive, I mean like, power, furry, quick, etc etc, each having a probability of hitting, and each being a trainable skill, adding to the damage it does on a basis, plus your stats and skill with the weapon you use, it would add Tatics, and would keep people from running everywhere....
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Actually theres a thread somewhere about hit & run not going to exist forever, eventually battling will be between stats and luck, mostly first strike. It will still prove interesting as to how the dueling system will be played out.
The only thing that would be interesting is watching how many "testers" left. ;D
In case no one had noticed, dozens of Hard core PSer's left after the latest "upgrade". Including possibly the very best duelist in the game(from what i'm told).
Early 90s combat mechanics aint gonna get it done in 2007, let alone 2010 when 1.0 is released(if then). For my part i'll stay with PS as long as there is a viable mobile combat system. The moment there isn't, well.....
And i sure would love to hear the static combat proponents lay out their brilliant vision of how ranged combat fits into a static combat system. LOL...i guess the warriors will just stand locked in place and get pelted by arrows and missiles until dead? LOL!
BTW, the combat system as it currently eixsts DOES balance between stats and luck.....AND skill. The days of "mouse click and watch" combat entertaining all but a small handful in an EXTREMELY competitive Genre- loooong since passed. But PS is the dev's baby, they can screw it up however they see fit. Too many other GOOD free MMORPGs out there for me to worry about it too much. IOW, "It's your loaded gun, if you want to put it in your mouth, that's your call."
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100% satisfaction, or your money back :)
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As long as there are levels and stats in PS their will always be powerlevellers, I could be defined as a powerleveller, although not all of my alts feel the need to train. Most trained due to knowing they would come up against someone wanting me dead, but now i'd ask if they had dice or i'd just refuse to fight ooc. Anyway since deciding not to duel anymore i've been RPing alot more and really started to enjoy PS again.
Now the only reason I need to PL is so my char can roll a higher dice number heh, and no i'm not trying to bring up the dueling in yet another thread cos truth be known I couldn't care about dueling anymore.
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100% satisfaction, or your money back :)
And when half the populace cashes in for a "refund", you'll know why well in advance. ;D
Gharin: Ah yes, apathy....always a great sign in a player. Doh....right...right....."tester."
LOL.
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Sure ;) My problem is that some people don't cash in quickly enough.
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Sure ;) My problem is that some people don't cash in quickly enough.
Hey, you can cash in for your full refund too. Anytime. ;D
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No thanks :) The door is always open for you, however.
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No thanks :) The door is always open for you, however.
I know, it's GREAT. Freedom and options, YES! :D
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If it was apathy "lack of interest" I wouldn't of posted. I did love to duel, sure. But it's been made quite clear what they have planned for it and that's were my lack of interest shows because I know I won't like it one bit. But would I leave PS cos of that, no. Why? The answer is simple:
Dueling exists in nearly every MMORPG out there.
RP however does not and it's more than present here.