PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Raleigh on May 10, 2007, 10:51:18 am
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It should get rid of all the old and beaten fantasy clichés, like the ones pointed on the article(And the reason why I'm not big into fantasy), this is about the fantasy genre as a whole, not only games:
http://scifimedia.blogspot.com/2006/09/fantasy-cliches-and-why-i-want-to-kill.html (http://scifimedia.blogspot.com/2006/09/fantasy-cliches-and-why-i-want-to-kill.html)
Here is the short list:
- Racial Determinism: "No racism" and "No 'evil'/'good' race" already is a step forward, but most of the Planeshift races still have stereotypes, fortunately not so strong as the ones in most fantasy books. Why not make a diaboli that is honest and trustworthy for example? Of course this also relies on players not following these stereotypes
- The Chosen One Syndrome & The Epic: Fortunately it's out of PS, there's no way someone can become a savior and neither there is a mention of those in Planeshift Settings, also there is no "Evil Big Lord".
- Authority Worship: For the people who insist on claiming "government is good", etc. This is one of the largest clichés of the genre, and really, it sucks. The brief mentions of the existence of crooks here and there on the Settings - Government Page information put it away from that a little. It doesn't have to follow "1984", neither it has to follow "Utopia"
- Boredom With Eurocentrism: Why people insist on dismissing any slight reference to things from other cultures as OOC? Making things slightly inspire from multiple cultures isn't a bad idea. Planeshift seems to be going more or less on the right track here, as except for the Ylians, the other races seem to draw a bit from other RW cultural basis: Xachas from the mesoamericans(aztecs,etc), Enkidukais from some kind of Middle-Eastern nomad culture and so on
I could mention more clichés beyond the mentioned ones on that blog, but they are already on the following site:
The Grand List of Fantasy Cliches (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Labyrinth/8584/stuff/cliche.html)
P.S.: Perhaps the author of the first article mentioned is right when he says:
Perhaps the problem is the fantasy audience. Perhaps they just want the Lord of the Rings re-told in slightly different ways over and over and over again.
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Racism? It's not a cliché, it's reality for some.
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It is good to want to be "original".
It is extremely hard to be different enough to be referenced instead of reference anything.
On one hand, it takes a maximum of knowledge of famous originals to avoid; on the other, it takes a maximum of creativity to make new as well as widely accepted figures.
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Racism? It's not a cliché, it's reality for some.
I think the point here is that racism dosent need to be added into every fantasy game, as it ussually is now.
Racism is very real, why should it be in our fantasy worlds that are created to escape reality?
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:D It thought it was Soooo cliché to mention clichés when they are made
:-[ Oh NO! I just did it!
(Just want to say that Clichés aren't always bad, cause theat would kinda be a cliché :P )
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What stereotypes?
I see nowhere written in stone that Diaboli are untrustworthy and dishonest.
They tend to be unreliable sometimes, but it's certainly not something you should tie yourself blindly to.
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can not say i have seen much racism in game ( i am honest trustworthy Diaboli btw ) \\o//
even so if there was would it be bad - you need darkness to highlite the light ;D
Grizzlyus ( Warriors Guild )
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Steryotypes are fun. I don't think planeshift should use the usual steryotypes but they are fun because they give guidance RP wise and a sense of humor to procedings. Like Krans being dumb... Everyone picks on them (ba dum csh).
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Eurocentrism? Look at the game. We have longswords and claymores but no katanas or tantos. We have dwarves and elves but no mothra or godzilla. Thats the way the settings are and the way the game looks and to be frank I couldn't care less what the culture is like. Just so long as there is continuity, and the stuff Irick had seemed to be totally out of the blue and not very PS. Granted it could fit in but then again so could alot of things but that would abolish the continuity.
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Quote from the first link on fantasy cliches: "Fahfrd & The Gray Mouser by Fritz Leiber is a notable exception."
I recently read the 6 book series Swords and Sourcery about the above, it's dated but held my attention for... erm.. 6 books.
I agree that most fantasy games are stereotyped but that is why most people play them rather than sci-fi for example. If the game moves too far away from the "norms" it risks being sidelined. Ther are games that have other themes within this genre, e.g. Conquer Online is very Eastern rather than European.
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I agree that most fantasy games are stereotyped but that is why most people play them rather than sci-fi for example.
The truth is... most people just get accomodated from seeing the same thing over and over with some small changes here and there... and like this over innovation, over the new, that is the same reason why there is very little innovation on most game genres(specially on FPSes that mostly are just remolded versions of Quake, for example), the consumers prefer to do it, the market follows...
Perhaps the problem is the fantasy audience. Perhaps they just want the Lord of the Rings re-told in slightly different ways over and over and over again.
Of course Planeshift does not, and should not base its Settings on what the "consumers" prefer.
Eurocentrism? Look at the game. We have longswords and claymores but no katanas or tantos. We have dwarves and elves but no mothra or godzilla. Thats the way the settings are and the way the game looks and to be frank I couldn't care less what the culture is like. Just so long as there is continuity, and the stuff Irick had seemed to be totally out of the blue and not very PS. Granted it could fit in but then again so could alot of things but that would abolish the continuity.
Eurocentrism is more than about swords, and katanas and such became too "mainstream" nowadays to sound original as well, in my opinion. And the same way there is no godzilla(overused eastern thing) or mothra, there aren't trolls(this is arguable...), fairies, unicorns and many other overused elements from european culture and folklore. The real deals lies in, as the article said, creating an unique culture based from one or several cultures instead of just copying and pasting european culture.
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Why not make a diaboli that is honest and trustworthy for example?
You're right that it's written nowhere in the settings that they're all dishonest and untrustworthy. Part of the problem was a distinct lack of Diaboli NPCs around which to base any example. We have some now, and yes there is a mix of good and evil in there.
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Personally if a fantasy book didn't have an epic story, a main character that was a savior, no racism, and no evil group/villian to hate I probably wouldn't read it. It sounds quite boring.
And furthermore, there are no fantasy cliches. Fantasy is classified fantasy because it contains certain elements that define the genre. If they didn't have those elements it wouldn't be fantasy.
You could compile a list of "cliches" twice the length of those lists about every genre in existance.
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Just a lttle comment about "racism" in fantasy and in PS : what we call "racism" in real life has nothing to do with the existence of races in a game like PS.
Racism in PS world would be something like : "this diaboli is inferior to me because his skin is darker than most diabolis"
The existence of several races in a game has nothing to do with racism. If tomorrow, some enkidukai arrive on Earth from an ufo, would you say they are the same race as human?
P.S : one of the reason i play PS is because it is very original, and i think there is no clichés in PS.
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Just a lttle comment about "racism" in fantasy and in PS : what we call "racism" in real life has nothing to do with the existence of races in a game like PS.
Racism in PS world would be something like : "this diaboli is inferior to me because his skin is darker than most diabolis"
The existence of several races in a game has nothing to do with racism. If tomorrow, some enkidukai arrive on Earth from an ufo, would you say they are the same race as human?
P.S : one of the reason i play PS is because it is very original, and i think there is no clichés in PS.
Racism based on the darkness of skin? Sounds very much like racism in our world.
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Just a lttle comment about "racism" in fantasy and in PS : what we call "racism" in real life has nothing to do with the existence of races in a game like PS.
Racism in PS world would be something like : "this diaboli is inferior to me because his skin is darker than most diabolis"
The existence of several races in a game has nothing to do with racism. If tomorrow, some enkidukai arrive on Earth from an ufo, would you say they are the same race as human?
P.S : one of the reason i play PS is because it is very original, and i think there is no clichés in PS.
I'm with Aendar on this one.
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The type of racism I was mentioning is the:
Orcs are evil
Elves are good
Drows are evil
and so on... these are the extremes of racial stereotypes, to judge the morals of an individual by his/her race is definitively a form of racism. To say all dwarves are drunkards is another one. If you readed the first article from the link you would get it:
@Aendar: The question is not about racial prejudice among the races in the history, it is about the author of it stereotyping the races on the history with several typical overused archetypes. Why not beat a whole "evil" group of intellingent power-hungry people that struggle for power among themselves as well instead of the typical "Evil Lord of Doom" with his brainless minions? Why not have hundreds, thousands defeating this group instead of a single godly character?
And if your definition of fantasy is "Anything that looks almost the same as Tolkien", then you should perhaps expand your horizons on it. :) There are fantasy cliches, and fortunately there are books on the genre that don't insist on following them so much. It is something like FPS: while we have thousands of variations of the same old Doom and Quake gameplay, some few(like Thief Series) stand in the middle of the clones.
The mark of LOTR on fantasy will take much time to fade completely and open more space for more originality...
Now I won't mind if you like to play or read multiple variations based on the same model of LOTR, just know that some people like to see different things, and get bored from the overused cliches.
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It should get rid of all the old and beaten fantasy clichés, like the ones pointed on the article(And the reason why I'm not big into fantasy), this is about the fantasy genre as a whole, not only games:
http://scifimedia.blogspot.com/2006/09/fantasy-cliches-and-why-i-want-to-kill.html (http://scifimedia.blogspot.com/2006/09/fantasy-cliches-and-why-i-want-to-kill.html)
Here is the short list:
- Racial Determinism: "No racism" and "No 'evil'/'good' race" already is a step forward, but most of the Planeshift races still have stereotypes, fortunately not so strong as the ones in most fantasy books. Why not make a diaboli that is honest and trustworthy for example? Of course this also relies on players not following these stereotypes
- The Chosen One Syndrome & The Epic: Fortunately it's out of PS, there's no way someone can become a savior and neither there is a mention of those in Planeshift Settings, also there is no "Evil Big Lord".
- Authority Worship: For the people who insist on claiming "government is good", etc. This is one of the largest clichés of the genre, and really, it sucks. The brief mentions of the existence of crooks here and there on the Settings - Government Page information put it away from that a little. It doesn't have to follow "1984", neither it has to follow "Utopia"
- Boredom With Eurocentrism: Why people insist on dismissing any slight reference to things from other cultures as OOC? Making things slightly inspire from multiple cultures isn't a bad idea. Planeshift seems to be going more or less on the right track here, as except for the Ylians, the other races seem to draw a bit from other RW cultural basis: Xachas from the mesoamericans(aztecs,etc), Enkidukais from some kind of Middle-Eastern nomad culture and so on
I could mention more clichés beyond the mentioned ones on that blog, but they are already on the following site:
The Grand List of Fantasy Cliches (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Labyrinth/8584/stuff/cliche.html)
P.S.: Perhaps the author of the first article mentioned is right when he says:
Perhaps the problem is the fantasy audience. Perhaps they just want the Lord of the Rings re-told in slightly different ways over and over and over again.
I disagree with every single point in your post.
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*yawn* Whatever...
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*yawn* Whatever...
Is this the say of Planeshift Development regarding the question of originality?
Or is it something else?
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*yawn* Whatever...
Is this the say of Planeshift Development regarding the question of originality?
Or is it something else?
I don't think such things are meant for us mortals to know.
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I have to add an important, but a little dangerous thought (call me "The Devils Advocate" for this specific topic):
Racism in a roleplaying game - why not?
As long as it is IC. And it happened before. And it was very successful in a specific case (unfortunately a bit out of control in another)...
At least, it is a usual reason for a guild war. And if that guild war is played well as a roleplay ... hey, then it is simply a part of this virtual world!
Who of you "midbies" and "oldbies" did not enjoy Dwarvesbane vs. Dwarven Star? ;)
And you "newbies", read about it, ask people about it. Learn how to play a racistic conflict, without being racistic in real life. :D
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I enjoyed it to a point. My dwarven character at that point was a miner and not a warrior at all. In other words I was a defenceless victem and eventually it led to me losing interest because I couldn't leave the upstairs of the tavern. I could have asked to be excluded but that would be a bit strange from an rp point of view and I could have leveled up but that would have been OOC. I ended up leaving the game for a while instead.
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Yeah someone like that would just while away and die if kept in captivity anyway, twas a shame you left the game abit over a single rp, though its sounded very big from what i have heard. Racism has its place just as much as murder and such. Though if it is done badly it can be awful. Anything done well is good. Somthing origanal done badly can be good also though.
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I enjoyed it to a point. My dwarven character at that point was a miner and not a warrior at all. In other words I was a defenceless victem and eventually it led to me losing interest because I couldn't leave the upstairs of the tavern. I could have asked to be excluded but that would be a bit strange from an rp point of view and I could have leveled up but that would have been OOC. I ended up leaving the game for a while instead.
Offtopic: About dwarvesbane...
Yliakum isn't an anarchic mob rule where anybody with enough power can do anything without fearing any kind of authority of law. This is the main problem behind these "racist" roleplays, it is not about Settings, it is about realism. I could "roleplay" a squadron of powerlevelle serial killers slaying everybody they met with constant /challenge, but that would ignore completely the fact that there is law enforcement in Yliakum. If you want to refuse considering it on your "roleplay" because it wasn't implemented yet, you can refuse that there is any economic activity besides mining, looting mobs, crafting and metallurgy and that there are no other weapons besides swords, daggers and axes. Same way you should immediatelly refuse the *cough* "uber 1337 mind control thingie" constantly employed on such "roleplays" as well.
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I forgot about Dwarvesbane. God they were annoying.
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Racism? It's not a cliché, it's reality for some.
It's a cliche when ALL members of a race act in one way or another, especially in an integrated society such as this one. It's understandable that members of a certain village or tribe might act similar, maybe even of a country--that's culture based. However, Yliakum and many other fantasy societies are integrated ones, with elves living with humans and living with dwarves, etc. I think that's what Raleigh meant, much less so then the racism of one group hating another (which has also been defined as out of the context, although I could see it as IC as long as it isn't taken too far). Especially in a society where you can grow up in other race's towns, for instance how Garon grew up in what was mainly a dwarven stronghold, and has only recently been learning tact and the like.
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I enjoyed it to a point. My dwarven character at that point was a miner and not a warrior at all. In other words I was a defenceless victem and eventually it led to me losing interest because I couldn't leave the upstairs of the tavern. I could have asked to be excluded but that would be a bit strange from an rp point of view and I could have leveled up but that would have been OOC. I ended up leaving the game for a while instead.
Yes, god forbid you actually train...
I enjoyed it to a point. My dwarven character at that point was a miner and not a warrior at all. In other words I was a defenceless victem and eventually it led to me losing interest because I couldn't leave the upstairs of the tavern. I could have asked to be excluded but that would be a bit strange from an rp point of view and I could have leveled up but that would have been OOC. I ended up leaving the game for a while instead.
Offtopic: About dwarvesbane...
Yliakum isn't an anarchic mob rule where anybody with enough power can do anything without fearing any kind of authority of law. This is the main problem behind these "racist" roleplays, it is not about Settings, it is about realism. I could "roleplay" a squadron of powerlevelle serial killers slaying everybody they met with constant /challenge, but that would ignore completely the fact that there is law enforcement in Yliakum. If you want to refuse considering it on your "roleplay" because it wasn't implemented yet, you can refuse that there is any economic activity besides mining, looting mobs, crafting and metallurgy and that there are no other weapons besides swords, daggers and axes. Same way you should immediatelly refuse the *cough* "uber 1337 mind control thingie" constantly employed on such "roleplays" as well.
You seem to harbor much ill-will to these 'power levelers' (which i would define as people that actually train hard). The way i see it based on actual in-game observation, "the law" is whoever is willing to spill their own blood over a cause they believe in. Invariably then, it tends to be these same-said 'power levelers' that defend the weak and punish the wicked in yliakum.
There is no functional or effective practical gov't or LE in Ylaikum anymore than there is a tooth fairy. Short of agravating Laanx(into a invite spam kill), you can walk around killing anyone you want as long as they accept your challenge.
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[...] My dwarven character at that point was a miner and not a warrior at all. [...]
Yes, god forbid you actually train...
God forbid someone has a character that doesn't fight... :)
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My dwarven character at that point was a miner and not a warrior at all.
God forbid someone has a character that doesn't fight... :)
They should not be in a guild that will expose them to a condition of such flagrant vulnerability then. Once a war starts if you can't fight, you are a statistic waiting to happen (again and again, hehe).
It's like real life. Sure, a college professor (as one of a myriad of examples) doesnt have to know how to fight...but if he's mugged (or worse) on his way to his car after class, well, like i said, he's a statistic waiting to happen. Heck, in PS the devs have given 100% blanket protection from nearly all crime(in the form of the decline challenge option), but even that does not protect one from a declared war.
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It seems to me, Valorius, that this game is very little to you but a PvP playground with RP flavors. And this part is directed towards the general public: you are too bloodthirsty. All of you who are going around fighting wars, challenging people to duels. PS isn't a PvP game, even if we have PvP combat available. Don't overuse it. Don't be so eager to jump on others and spill their entrails. It doesn't make you "cool," or "badass." It doesn't impress me, nor any other developers. It's completely your choice, but when I read about people bragging about their duel skills, I yawn. This game isn't for joyous slaughter of other characters, whether you attempt to cover that with RP or no.
Valorius: your previous comment about any lack of law enforcement in Yliakum completely misses the point Raleigh was making. I suggest you read over it again.
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I enjoyed it to a point. My dwarven character at that point was a miner and not a warrior at all. In other words I was a defenceless victem and eventually it led to me losing interest because I couldn't leave the upstairs of the tavern. I could have asked to be excluded but that would be a bit strange from an rp point of view and I could have leveled up but that would have been OOC. I ended up leaving the game for a while instead.
Yes, god forbid you actually train...
Parallo prefers to train his mind and soul.:)
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raliegh you will be please to know we do have intent to skip most of the ones you extracted from that site \\o//
current settings team does have to deal with what came before but you will see things significantly altered over time.
I think ps is very unique
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It seems to me, Valorius, that this game is very little to you but a PvP playground with RP flavors. And this part is directed towards the general public: you are too bloodthirsty. All of you who are going around fighting wars, challenging people to duels. PS isn't a PvP game, even if we have PvP combat available. Don't overuse it. Don't be so eager to jump on others and spill their entrails. It doesn't make you "cool," or "badass." It doesn't impress me, nor any other developers. It's completely your choice, but when I read about people bragging about their duel skills, I yawn. This game isn't for joyous slaughter of other characters, whether you attempt to cover that with RP or no.
Valorius: your previous comment about any lack of law enforcement in Yliakum completely misses the point Raleigh was making. I suggest you read over it again.
I'm not trying to impress you or anyone else. I'm trying to entertain myself.
Mission successful to date. :)
As far as "what this game is for", i'd say it's many things to many people. I doubt any two people would say it's "for" the same things. To me, it's for....playing.
One cannot 'abuse' wars or duels because there is a simple 'decline' option. If you don't want to fight someone there is absolutely ZERO way for someone else to force you to do it. It's really quite simple.
PS: I understand exactly what raliegh was saying. One can pretend Yliakum is a well organized and well enforced democracy, but that is not the same as 'reality'. In reality, blood flows freely in Yliakum, and there is no penalty for virtually anything, including mass murder. :-P
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It seems to me, Valorius, that this game is very little to you but a PvP playground with RP flavors. And this part is directed towards the general public: you are too bloodthirsty. All of you who are going around fighting wars, challenging people to duels. PS isn't a PvP game, even if we have PvP combat available. Don't overuse it. Don't be so eager to jump on others and spill their entrails. It doesn't make you "cool," or "badass." It doesn't impress me, nor any other developers. It's completely your choice, but when I read about people bragging about their duel skills, I yawn. This game isn't for joyous slaughter of other characters, whether you attempt to cover that with RP or no.
Valorius: your previous comment about any lack of law enforcement in Yliakum completely misses the point Raleigh was making. I suggest you read over it again.
I'm not trying to impress you or anyone else. I'm trying to entertain myself.
Mission successful to date. :)
Perhaps, but Karyuu was dead on in her description of you.
If you enjoy player-killing, that's fine. But when you start to define all aspects of existence as meaningful only when expressed through duels, then there's a problem.
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It seems to me, Valorius, that this game is very little to you but a PvP playground with RP flavors. And this part is directed towards the general public: you are too bloodthirsty. All of you who are going around fighting wars, challenging people to duels. PS isn't a PvP game, even if we have PvP combat available. Don't overuse it. Don't be so eager to jump on others and spill their entrails. It doesn't make you "cool," or "badass." It doesn't impress me, nor any other developers. It's completely your choice, but when I read about people bragging about their duel skills, I yawn. This game isn't for joyous slaughter of other characters, whether you attempt to cover that with RP or no.
Valorius: your previous comment about any lack of law enforcement in Yliakum completely misses the point Raleigh was making. I suggest you read over it again.
I'm not trying to impress you or anyone else. I'm trying to entertain myself.
Mission successful to date. :)
Perhaps, but Karyuu was dead on in her description of you.
If you enjoy player-killing, that's fine. But when you start to define all aspects of existence as meaningful only when expressed through duels, then there's a problem.
Well good luck with your "problem".
PS: You're aware PS is a game, right? It's not real...you know that, right? :-P
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PS: I understand exactly what raliegh was saying. One can pretend Yliakum is a well organized and well enforced democracy, but that is not the same as 'reality'. In reality, blood flows freely in Yliakum, and there is no penalty for virtually anything, including mass murder. :-P
You fail, and brilliantly so :)
Just because there is no coded guard system at the moment does not mean that "anything goes" when it comes to murder and crime in Yliakum. You roleplay in a world with specific settings, whether they are supported at this stage by actual game mechanics or not. Tread lightly, Valorius.
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Well good luck with your "problem".
PS: You're aware PS is a game, right? It's not real...you know that, right? :-P
It's an ongoing "problem" that we've learned to adapt with.
PS: You're aware that not everything that happens in game is IC... you know that, right? :-P
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PS: I understand exactly what raliegh was saying. One can pretend Yliakum is a well organized and well enforced democracy, but that is not the same as 'reality'. In reality, blood flows freely in Yliakum, and there is no penalty for virtually anything, including mass murder. :-P
You fail, and brilliantly so :)
Just because there is no coded guard system at the moment does not mean that "anything goes" when it comes to murder and crime in Yliakum. You roleplay in a world with specific settings, whether they are supported at this stage by actual game mechanics or not. Tread lightly, Valorius.
Indeed, IC speaking, Yliakum is exactly like the developers want the end product to be, and that is why you should base your RP upon the setting, which clearly states that Yliakum is peaceful and well organised with a strong government and law enforcement system. Not so?
So when in character, obey the law because technically you will be punished for bad deeds. I think roleplaying an evil character is a lot harder than most people realise.
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I think roleplaying an evil character is a lot harder than most people realise.
Don't make the assumption that all criminals are evil or that all evil people are criminals.
Aside from that, I agree completely.
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I find that almost all of the "duelers" consider their characters to be alligned with good. Of course, I find them to be a few things. :innocent:
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PS: I understand exactly what raliegh was saying. One can pretend Yliakum is a well organized and well enforced democracy, but that is not the same as 'reality'. In reality, blood flows freely in Yliakum, and there is no penalty for virtually anything, including mass murder. :-P
You fail, and brilliantly so :)
Just because there is no coded guard system at the moment does not mean that "anything goes" when it comes to murder and crime in Yliakum. You roleplay in a world with specific settings, whether they are supported at this stage by actual game mechanics or not. Tread lightly, Valorius.
And once more, CLEARLY that is not the actual state of Yliakum. There are murders daily in public in Hydlaa. And thefts ('real' and RPed), and assaults (RP'ed). So you may RP that yliakum is 'lawful', when all around you "Rome is burning".
I have no power to stop the obvious and ongoing crime that exists in Yliakum despite your ongoing protestations of a well ordered society, nor do i have any desire to.
Laanx has that power, but rarely exercizes it. Because of this, few fear his retribution. What's more, when i DID try to police a particularly nefarius fiend, it was made clear to me in no uncertain terms by the Gms that her evil RP was very much needed and desired. I believe that same said player killed about 60 players in a matter of weeks in every underhanded way one can imagine.
Yliakum is what it is, and what it is is most certainly not peaceful.
[ Double-quote removed. --Kary ]
(i was just going in to remove the double quote too, sorry about that!)
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And if players suddenly start to RP UFOs, we'll allow that in as official settings material too, eh? ;)
Rethink what you're saying, and what you're doing. Normally if you encounter something that does not obey the settings of a world, you ignore it and move on. For some reason, you choose to embrace it. Don't be hasty in your bloodthirst.
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And once more, CLEARLY that is not the actual state of Yliakum. There are murders daily in public in Hydlaa. And thefts ('real' and RPed), and assaults (RP'ed). So you may RP that yliakum is 'lawful', when all around you "Rome is burning".
I have no power to stop the obvious and ongoing crime that exists in Yliakum despite your ongoing protestations of a well ordered society, nor do i have any desire to.
Laanx has that power, but rarely exercizes it. Because of this, few fear his retribution. What's more, when i DID try to police a particularly nefarius fiend, it was made clear to me in no uncertain terms by the Gms that her evil RP was very much needed and desired. I believe that same said player killed about 60 players in a matter of weeks in every underhanded way one can imagine.
Yliakum is what it is, and what it is is most certainly not peaceful.
OH give it a break, Val. You enjoy player killing. That's why you duel so much.
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Pfft, you cant rp robbing someone with a death threat because everyone that you would rob (because no one in their right mind would try and rob a 'dualer') knows you cant kill them occ, and uses that ooc knowledge IC and just act all imortal, even if you are a kran with a claymore and they are a dwarf with a spoon. And in a more ontopic flavour, 'Dualers' RPs are bland, to say the least. They make a little group of friends, if anyone insults their friends or them, they go out and kill them. Thats the way it always goes down. Its hard to be a criminal in Planeshift because crimials prey on people weaker than themselves, 99% of the time the weaker person in planeshift will just act untouchable, regardless. I want to see a limb breaking skill :P
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I've said this before, but I think duels should be removed from the game. This annoying subculture would disappear overnight as a result. My character in-game is a sociopathic serial killer who has murdered many high profile characters, so I'm not saying this without any fondness for the PvP system. I just think the benefits outweigh the costs.
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Non-leathal dualing and a justice system. I know I'm getting repetative saying it over and over again but I'm yet to hear a good reason why it shouldnt be. Other than the difficulty coding, but games are hard to code.
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I confess I would enjoy really very much PK, not to the point of only doing it however... if this was a MMOFPS...
How much time will it take to people realized that combat and quick-paced action aren't the strong points of a roleplaying game so they won't waste more time on RPGs and MMORPGs focused on "Hack and Slash"? That playing on its strong points is usually better than on its weak points? And that if you like something that is a weak point on the game you're playing, perhaps you should look for another genre of game where it's a strong point?
Well, I won't be the "go play other game!" type, but here are some games you might find much more interesting than Planeshift, none of them is perfect as they are delving in a new genre(MMOFPS) - sometimes their learning curves are steep, but if you like a good challenge it's good -, however definitively more developed than PS, and their combat is more interesting as well(As PS focus isn't combat), perhaps you could give a try on online games that try to conciliate both FPS and RPG strenghts(like Deus Ex) or on pure MMOFPSes:
Planetside(One of the first MMOFPSes...)
Official Site: http://planetside.station.sony.com/ (http://planetside.station.sony.com/)
Review: http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/planetside/review.html (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/planetside/review.html)
Neocron 2.2(I also am looking forward for this one myself, as it is some kind of "Deus Ex MMORPG", and you can be a hacker too :) ):
Official Site: http://ng.neocron.com/ (http://ng.neocron.com/)
Review: http://www.gameogre.com/neocron2review.htm (http://www.gameogre.com/neocron2review.htm)
Now lets hope they will release Huxley(it has RP elements) for PC too and not only for Xbox, so there will be a third option as well:
http://pc.ign.com/articles/617/617966p1.html (http://pc.ign.com/articles/617/617966p1.html)
Are they free? No, I don't want to sound pessimistic, but sometimes the proverbial "you get what you pay for" becomes true and there is no way a free MMOFPS could ever be developed. There are some free GPL quake clones laying around, but nowadays the old Quake 3 and such can be found cheaply on eBay, so I don't think it's worth.
Now back to the MMORPG genre... No offense to those who do it, but I would never pay monthly for one because "paying to work" is absurd(except if the "payment" is a donation and the work is voluntary to aid the needy of course). And for me the gameplay from all MMORPGs on the grinding is something as boring as a job. I stick with PS because it has more than just grind.
Now back on topic:
And if players suddenly start to RP UFOs, we'll allow that in as official settings material too, eh? ;)
There is more than that... although the idea of bypassing the way things work on roleplay because it isn't reflected on gameplay is a bit off, this comparison went too far... It's more a question of whether Settings should be treated as "alpha"(something based on the line "Testers First, Players Second" which I disagree fully), considering the game system situation as more important than roleplay or if it should be treated as complete, including "godmodding"(according to some people) the practice of skills your character has but that don't work in game yet, considering roleplay more important than the alpha game system. I say: are you on a back alley at the "midnight"? A (very stupid) victim goes there... I can't say much, but it's a big chance of something bad happening for example. Now, killing somebody in the front of a NPC guard? It's another history then...
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Here is the short list:
- Racial Determinism: "No racism" and "No 'evil'/'good' race" already is a step forward, but most of the Planeshift races still have stereotypes, fortunately not so strong as the ones in most fantasy books. Why not make a diaboli that is honest and trustworthy for example? Of course this also relies on players not following these stereotypes
- The Chosen One Syndrome & The Epic: Fortunately it's out of PS, there's no way someone can become a savior and neither there is a mention of those in Planeshift Settings, also there is no "Evil Big Lord".
- Authority Worship: For the people who insist on claiming "government is good", etc. This is one of the largest clichés of the genre, and really, it sucks. The brief mentions of the existence of crooks here and there on the Settings - Government Page information put it away from that a little. It doesn't have to follow "1984", neither it has to follow "Utopia"
- Boredom With Eurocentrism: Why people insist on dismissing any slight reference to things from other cultures as OOC? Making things slightly inspire from multiple cultures isn't a bad idea. Planeshift seems to be going more or less on the right track here, as except for the Ylians, the other races seem to draw a bit from other RW cultural basis: Xachas from the mesoamericans(aztecs,etc), Enkidukais from some kind of Middle-Eastern nomad culture and so on
Originality isn't good when it comes to the verge of absurd. Diaboli are highly charismatic. Why shouldn't they take advantage of it when they know they may get away with it?
In my opinion there isn't enough racial stereotypes provided by the setting. The less they are pointed out, the more all races will act the same. Lack of cultural differences. That makes the world boring and sadly makes players focus on stats and models, instead of possibilities for role-play (and thence you have lots of Enkidukais that don't even act as the setting would propose). Also, I don't know how well you've read the setting, but racism is present in Yliakum. It's just mentioned that there's no open wars happening because for the most part everyone are living together (after all think about it, is there no racism in USA?). Stonebreakers are obviously racist. You can base it on the fact they take pride from their race as well as that they tend to quarrel with taller races. There was also a fight between Yians and Enkidukais, but it had nothing to do with racism.
Now:
“There are worlds where courageous heroes who stand for all that is good and righteous watch over populaces of decent folk who seek to enrich their own lives and better those of the people around them.
This isn’t one of those worlds.
The Old World is one of blood, pain, sacrifice, treachery, deceit, and malice. Many of the Empire’s ‘heroes’ are dangerous rogues and blood spattered butchers. The people of the Old World are superstitious and insular, swift to believe the worst of others and slow to trust, often with good reason. Corruption is the rule, honesty the exception. Those few bright souls who still manage to accomplish truly heroic tasks frequently have to act under cover of darkness, lest they be accused of being in league with the very forces they try to combat.
Sound like fun? Good.”
That's why I love Warhammer, especially the second edition. Outside of the mainstream market, it remains original in its dark fantasy setting :)
Despite that in large part it's a gathering of fantasy cliches, it makes them very unique.
For example war between dwarves and elves didn't end with situation when elf and dwarf will spit in each other's eyes on sight. Instead dwarves, who maintained strong relationship with humans passed them some of their mistrust for magic. From that point the situation becomes spicy, since humans got it all wrong and most actually believe all elves are practicing witchcraft. In small village peasant people are quick to burn elves at stakes; In bigger cities being an elf draws you attention of the witch hunters (and there's actually unofficial payment called "tax for ears"). And if you really are a magic-using elf and witch hunters found out about it... Well, I hope you enjoyed your life. It's really something you don't see in other games. While elves are the most powerful of all races available for players, they have a serious drawback. Sessions with me as a Game Master became known for this racism part. It's already hard to be a dwarf in a human society. But players who play elves started automatically putting their hoods on or even hiding under tables, when suddenly city guards walk into the tavern they hang out in. There are some elves embassies, but they don't work quite well in a corrupted government.
The chosen one syndrome is non-existant there. Players are meant to play simple people. People who for some odd reason started adventuring. It's very easy to die there. If you don't wear platemail armour (which is very expensive by the way), even a single goblin may kill you if you're unlucky. Acting as a saviour isn't act of heroism. It's a mental problem. We have a player who tried to play a prideful and righteous elf in our team, but after spending too much time with my shadow mage character, eventually he became known for his... moments. In the end our team consists of a murderous maniac, a shady manipulator, a shameless halfling thief, an ethics-deprived drunkard, a mean dwarf and a quarrel-seeking warrior. Some team, hmm? There was also notable power-hungry pyromancer (fire mage), but my character got annoyed with him threatening his life once, so eventually he met his demise in some odd circumstances ;)
It's how the setting works on your characters anyway.
Authority worship... heh. I don't think any player in our team ever played character that does that. Corrupted government, witch hunters... There's nothing to worship.
Eurocentrism is there since the empire is placed in part of world shaped after medieval Europe. However, if you go to south, there's more African culture and on the east there's Arabian one. Plus, there's also New World far behind the ocean.
To conclude, originality is to be found in subtle elements. If you focus on the obvious elements, more often than not, you will forget about everything that remains out of sight. As a result you'll have cliched world under illusion of unique races and location.
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@Draklar: I was not mentioning racism primarily on the sense of prejudice among characters, but mainly on the sense of stereotypes. And yes, any dark environment is more interesting than a "disneyland" or too peaceful scenario, that's why I have a preference on the dark cyberpunk themes(and steampunk too ;) )
Diaboli are highly charismatic. Why shouldn't they take advantage of it when they know they may get away with it?
Because if they aways are untrustworthy for the smaller things, they will never be trusted enough to acquire power and take advantage on the larger things, of course a too short-sighted and short-term mindset would elimate this. Just as an example, a certaim charismatic individual never behaved publically as "untrustworthy" to a certain nation on the 40s, to the point of actually being supported, and everybody knows the monstruous slaughter he was responsible for leading after it.
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Not being trustworthy doesn't mean others must know about it or that you prove it in any given situation. Everything includes manipulation, which Diaboli are masters at. Truly charismatic Diaboli will hide his true aims and try to manipulate the public, and even after gaining power, maintain hiding the aims under disguise of righteousness. Not all Diaboli (actually very few) will act as such, but none the less they are more likely to do so than all the other races (simply because they can). That's how stereotypes come to life.
But the main reason not to make Diaboli all that trustworthy is because... they look devilish and have as devilish name. Making them otherwise would bring forth lots of confusion. Cool thing about fantasy is that it takes folktales and twists it around to fit it into the given setting. Most of fantasy so far came from pagan folklore. Here we have a case of race finding its beginning in the Abrahamic tales. I think that's a pretty unique touch by itself (well sure, we already had angels and devils in fantasy, but they lacked fantasy manipulation).
And stereotypes are useful in role-playing games. Without them all races will act like the Ylians should.
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Why not make a diaboli that is honest and trustworthy for example?
You're right that it's written nowhere in the settings that they're all dishonest and untrustworthy. Part of the problem was a distinct lack of Diaboli NPCs around which to base any example. We have some now, and yes there is a mix of good and evil in there.
Just wanted to address this particular point.
Diaboli are a happy, bustling, malicious race, quite unreliable. Humility is completely foreign concept to them. Their familiarity with some of the semi-intelligent races that dwell in the Stone Labyrinths has raised suspicion with the other races.
That doesn't exactly scream trustworthiness. However, they get people to trust them through their charms and manipulation anyway or at least they try.
Won't get into the rest of the discussion though, since I hardly have time to play PS nowadays. :)
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There we are again: Generalization. Up to the point that some people seem to reject the possibility of exceptional individuals in contrast to the statistical average of a race, or a bias / predjudice based on tales from the ancient.
All Gipsies in general will steal.
All Scots in general will be stingy.
All Diaboli in general will be evil and not trustworthy.
So who makes the stereotypes here: The settings team, or the biased player? ;)
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Which official setting or description of the world does it say that about "all Scots" and "all Gypsies"? A "God's Manual" perhaps? It's an opinion or a rumor started by people themselves, therefore your examples are wrong.
The Diaboli nature isn't an opinion or a rumor started by in-game NPC characters or even by the players themselves but an official description on the website.
It doesn't say "some", "many" or "most". It does say "race". That's as to the core as it gets. It does not say "the race tends to be...", therefore it leaves no room for interpretation or exceptions.
Some people just read it incorrectly. :)
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Raleigh: If a majority of fantasy books are LOTR clones to you, it is you who needs to expand your horizons. I've read countless fantasy books that are nothing like LOTR. Anyone who says all fantasy books are the same, clearly has not read enough fantasy books.
Take for instance the Sword of Truth series I'm working my way through now. Fantasy novels. No elves, no dwarves, no halflings.
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OH give it a break, Val. You enjoy player killing. That's why you duel so much.
I enjoy dueling, yes. To me, it is the most exciting part of the game, yes. I've sat in DR in the library with dozens of other players and dueled for hours at a time, so i know it's not just me. :)
I also RP for hours at a time with fellow guild leaders as well (aka diplomacy), which i also find to be great fun. I train extensively(which is not so fun), and participate in all the GM events i hear about. I am also quite active in idle chit-chat at harns with my fellow players, and have often gotten involved with various players' RP's as well. So while i most certainly enjoy dueling and warfare the most, i consider myself an 'all aspect' player. The only thing i really don't get into is crafting, which to me, is as boring as watching paint dry.
To each their own however, you won't see me knocking other people's in game preferences.
I've said this before, but I think duels should be removed from the game. This annoying subculture would disappear overnight as a result. My character in-game is a sociopathic serial killer who has murdered many high profile characters, so I'm not saying this without any fondness for the PvP system. I just think the benefits outweigh the costs.
EXCELLENT! We can all just knit instead!!!
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I find myself largely in agreement with Xanacru and Aendar on the points they raised.
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EXCELLENT! We can all just knit instead!!!
I'm disappointed in your attitude. Lack of PvP in a game does not make it a boring game. In fact, it's often quite the opposite.
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EXCELLENT! We can all just knit instead!!!
I'm disappointed in your attitude. Lack of PvP in a game does not make it a boring game. In fact, it's often quite the opposite.
/me nods intensively "Remember that fighting with mechanics not always comes out the same as when you fight RP-stylo";)
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I've said this before, but I think duels should be removed from the game. This annoying subculture would disappear overnight as a result. My character in-game is a sociopathic serial killer who has murdered many high profile characters, so I'm not saying this without any fondness for the PvP system. I just think the benefits outweigh the costs.
EXCELLENT! We can all just knit instead!!!
Right, because the only thing to do in game is kill other people.
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EXCELLENT! We can all just knit instead!!!
I'm disappointed in your attitude. Lack of PvP in a game does not make it a boring game. In fact, it's often quite the opposite.
I disagree that a fantasy-role playing game that is devoid of combat is as good as one that has it. Fortunately for all concerned, PS has it in healthy doses, without coming even close to being 'just another hacker'.
D&D without the combat would've never been anything. No one would remember it. And the same is true for LOTR and the Hobbit. This entire Genre is built around conflict, adventure, bravery, and war.
It just is.
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I said PvP, Valorius. Not combat entirely. PvE would still exist :) Don't hold yourself to such a narrow mindframe that all combat means attacking fellow players.
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A common rule being made is: Duels should have a reason. To avoid challenge spam, the decline penalty was introduced.
For the Dwarvesbane war, a story got created around the reasons and the threats, with a final showdown. This is quite different to challenging anyone in sight! ;)
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Its the other players that pose the challenge, you always know how a mob will react, cant say the same about players. But you'll find the mind is sharper than the sword and can deal much more damage.
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If you as a collective group of GM's/Dev's wish to eliminate PvP that's your choice. Entirely.
TRUE STORY: In europe (and really all accross europe) and the occupied new world right up until the (IIRC) late 1800s there was a class of dueling professionals who fought at the mere drop of the hat (and often provoked fights for no reason as the more people they killed the greater their reputation became, and the more prestigous their training academy or services became) or as champions for someone else's 'honor'. Certainly so much as insulting a gentleman publically could -and regularly did- spark challenges and fights to the death.
There are a great many very famous examples of such.
I think that the contention that people did not regularly kill for little to no reason is entirely unsupported by the ole' historical record. People STILL kill for little to no reason on a daily basis, even now. (there have been almost 200 murders in my city alone since the start of the year now)
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Well, the discussion got stupid again.
@Karyuu: I think you should drop this argument with Val. You're not going to convince him and we all know he's just being silly anyway.
Or actually you're both being silly. Both of you make some good points (that the other side won't acknowledge), but it's not the right place to discuss it.
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If PlaneShift intends to be original as an MMO, Draklar, I would love to see people stop killing each other ;) It's all combat, combat, combat. But as you wish.
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If you as a collective group of GM's/Dev's wish to eliminate PvP that's your choice. Entirely.
Sure they wanna eliminate it! That's why they made it possible in the first place ;D
EDIT: "With 'it' I mean PVP"
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If you as a collective group of GM's/Dev's wish to eliminate PvP that's your choice. Entirely.
TRUE STORY: In europe (and really all accross europe) and the occupied new world right up until the (IIRC) late 1800s there was a class of dueling professionals who fought at the mere drop of the hat (and often provoked fights for no reason as the more people they killed the greater their reputation became, and the more prestigous their training academy or services became) or as champions for someone else's 'honor'. Certainly so much as insulting a gentleman publically could -and regularly did- spark challenges and fights to the death.
TRUE STORY: Such individuals were seen by society as idiotic young men who were incapable of resolving problems without violence.
TRUE STORY: Such individuals are still seen as idiots.
TRUE STORY: The people who behave in such a way in Planeshift do so for OOC reasons.
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PvE is usually much more interesting in single player RPGs, that's all I have to say about this old discussion brought back here...
But the way PvP combat works now, well. I don't know why people like it. As I said, some other games have much more interesting PvP options (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28616.msg329688#msg329688) that would make me more interested on combat than on the typical MMORPG.
Planescape Torment almost had not much combat compared to a "Hack and Slash" like Diablo, but to make an immersive plot like its on a MMORPG... quite a challenge.
Permanent removal of PvP isn't something I would agree with. However I agree that the current PvP system is somewhat flawed, as only a very large Death Realm and/or Intelligent guards NPCs would fix a part of it.
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Getting back to the original topic, the problem with trying to be original is that there is very little that hasn't already been thought of before. An MMORPG is an MMORPG is a Halloween Parade is a Masquerade Ball is a Passion Play. There is very little difference between an FRPG and a SFRPG, A first person shooter is a reduced instruction subset. The main differences amount to nothing more than set dressing. We know the play will be Shakespeare because of the Elizabethan look of the set, we know it is Beckett due to the sparseness of the set.
How is it any different if I shoot you with a flame burst spell or a flame thrower pistol? Is there a difference if we have demorians, stonebreakers and enkidukai or we have their equivalent with different names? They are all humanoids in form, if you want something different make Tefusang the player characters. Try developing some kind of system with real challenges built in.
I really don't see what the fuss is about.
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Good points bilbous. I think you can make strong arguments that originality is impossible except in very extreme circumstances. Ideas like Einsteins relativity took the world by surprise and were fantastically original. He wasn't even a great mathematician, but he had a knack for thinking outside the box and using thought experiments. That kind of originality is hard to find, and gets harder and harder as time goes on. :)
There are other aspects to the originality of PlaneShift settings that do feel borrowed but that is not necessarily the point nor is it really that important. Sometimes creating a nice atmosphere for imagination to take root is good enough, even if you borrow from others good ideas along the way.
Other things though, like using medieval paintings photo's from online for ingame paintings says to me lazy dev :) Those things are not that common though so I think they do an ok job, and so long as people have the freedom to imagine and create then the possibilities are endless.
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They should not be in a guild that will expose them to a condition of such flagrant vulnerability then. Once a war starts if you can't fight, you are a statistic waiting to happen (again and again, hehe).
It wasn't the guild I was in. It was the race I was. It wouldn't be racism if it was against the guild, would it?
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My last words on the questions of this thread: Linux, on what it became now, isn't an "Unix clone" anymore. :)
Offtopic: For the one who said sci-fi is less popular because it has less clichés and follows a less predictable model...
The Grand List of Overused Science Fiction Cliches (http://www.cthreepo.com/cliche/)
Note that some of the marked items are considered as not bad, as long as they receive a special treatment on the plotline, the same goes with fantasy.
@Aendar: I didn't mean most fantasy works are LOTR clones. What I meant is that the definition of "fantasy" isn't simply "things that look like more or less as Tolkien's books". There are original works, unfortunately LOTR elements overshadow attemps at originality because they "seem popular, why risk something different instead of using the tried and tested formula for profit?". That's why I drew a comparison with FPSes, originality is risk, and the goal of profit predates the goal of being both unique and interesting, as long as the customers are satisfied with having the same thing under a different clothing.