PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Donari Tyndale on September 03, 2007, 05:07:05 pm
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This discussion has been around for ages. However, it reached a stage where the scales are leaning to one side, the side of the powerlevellers.
Let's take a look at the most recent things that led to my conclusion:
First of all, the implementation of houses. Houses do cost money. And who has money in a game where you were able to mine gold and get money 24/7? Correct, the powerlevellers. And what piece of the pie do the roleplayers, those that spent their time enhancing the community with their roleplay instead of mining, get? Not much..as the auction of Lolitra's house showed. I am aware of the old argument that you can not officially claim to own a house in PS, since everyone does so. But let's look at this from a different angle. Why do you level? Because you get rewarded and it is fun. Why do you roleplay? Because it is fun. You can not expect a reward, even though you help to enhance the game. Shouldn't roleplayers be rewarded? Lolitra RPed to own this house for over a year, yet other persons who mined a few weeks would have been easily able to outbid the sum it went for. In my opinion, this will lead to a major point of conflict. Houses will be owned by powerlevellers, if there is no change in the economy, since the amount of money owned by RPers is "peanuts" to the PLers. The other thing that disturbed me about the auction was an obvious lack of IC knowledge of the Devs. They could have thought about what house they were going to sell. I understand it was in a hurry, the houses needed to be tested. But unfortunately it was Lolitra's house. The argument of a Dev ICly, that Lolitra did not pay her taxes, was simply ridiculous. Lolitra as a char would always pay her taxes.
At this point I suggest a wipe -a total inventory/money/skill wipe-, since so much changed. Training and gaining money is now harder then before, and new players would be disadvataged. And those that seek to powerlevel will think twice about what game they play, as Planeshift is supposed to be a mmoRPg. There are other "great" games for levelling and pwning.
Secondly, there is an obvious inbalance in the game mechanics. Again, the PLing part is far more advanced then the things that are needed for roleplaying. How do you train? Wiht pps and money. How do you get them? Through hours and hours of stupid fighting. The crafts like metallurgy and blacksmithing, or for example bookwriting, are nothing in comparison to the part of PS that involves fighting. Tons of different weapons, armors, spells. That are things a Rper does not need. I would suggest that FUTURE projects are balanced, to add something for everyone. At this point, I do not want to critize the Devs. The Devs are doing a great job. I just want to suggest something for the future.
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The struggle continues.
Valid points, great advise.
Let's hope people listen to you. I bet some will snap at the word "wipe." Let's take note.
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Maybe I don't know much of anything haha but it seems like the game will still be changing for years to come, and they plan on wiping eventually anyway, why not let them balance the game and whatnot a bit before they go clear everything. :]
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Pfft.
The dev team is way ahead of you.
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Is it? In what way?
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Donari you know we cannot tell you that, but let me get this straight, you got the house you wanted and you are still complaining?
I am at a loss.
As to us not being aware of the roleplays or that this was the lolitra house um, tough noogies.
We love our players and do all we can, it still seems like an endless stream of complaints.
I watched to threads recently dedicated to praising the devs turn into ugly flame fests.
Some players are making this a hostile environment for devs to work in.
Yet people also complain that we do not pay attention to them, then when we do, we are attacked, called stupid etc etc etc.
You had the money to get the house, others could have out bid you, they did not.
You call powerleveling what we call game mechanics, if your guild is not making enough money than alter this view, get people working for you etc. Write and sell books if you need for it to be in an rp way. Mining is not PLing it is Role playing a miner.
Fighting is not pling it is role playing a fighter.
we have said before that changes will come and balance will come and that we are working on it, that should be enough.
Enjoy your house.
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You call powerleveling what we call game mechanics, if your guild is not making enough money than alter this view, get people working for you etc. Write and sell books if you need for it to be in an rp way. Mining is not PLing it is Role playing a miner.
That Hydlaa Herald seems to be making a nice bit of money actually. A circle to read (and then give back when you are done) with quite a few readers.
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At this point I would like to remind you that
The objective of the PlaneShift is to create a virtual fantasy world in which a player can start as a peasant...
If you choose to do roleplay that does not garner you income you will remain a peasant. The house of Purrty, despite all their contentions of nobility started out with nothing and found a way to earn their money. If you choose to roleplay an imaginary income you ought to be content with imaginary houses and etc.
Stop bitching because no-one gives you their hard earned cash for being artistes. Artistes in medieval society all depended on the patronage of the well-to-do but begging is beneath you, correct? Perhaps you should be trying to instill a sense of "noblesse oblige" in the hearts of the rich people. All the same if you refuse to use what is available I can not feel any sympathy for you.
It seems to me Donari that you are one of the richer characters around although I might be mistaken what support for the arts have you given? As to the house, well the devs decided to allow the squatters to legitimize their claim. Perhaps the excuse given was exceptionally lame but the original claim of ownership was entirely specious. I might be able to bid on a house someday if I decide to hoard my money and stop buying training but then again I may not be allowed to buy because I remain guildless.
Enough rambling for now, please forgive the tone as it seems harsher than really intended.
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You call powerleveling what we call game mechanics, if your guild is not making enough money than alter this view, get people working for you etc. Write and sell books if you need for it to be in an rp way. Mining is not PLing it is Role playing a miner.
That Hydlaa Herald seems to be making a nice bit of money actually. A circle to read (and then give back when you are done) with quite a few readers.
Making nice money? Do you know how many hours I spent in writing and organising etc... I could have done 100*more with dumb goldmining.
Btw, you get 50 Tria back if you return your copy, we have some problems atm and thats why we only use 10 Heralds to lend.
I made a list and everyone who already payed, read and gave it back will get a Herald when we are able to do more copies of the 7th edition.
I believe you havent read the latest Herald yet @ Waylander...
Edit:
I need to support Donari in a few points.
Those people who are mutliclienting with 3 minerchars and mining all the day withouth giving any answers or those who camp their mobs for hours without saying a single word are eehm a bit annoying. At least I am annoyed by them and many other people ingame too.
€2:
I agree with Zan below me. :)
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I have to agree with some of the remarks here, while this game still could be more roleplay friendly, I would definitely not go as far and saying that the only people with power and money are those who don't rp. The game mechanics always favor those who spend more time playing, there is no way around that unless you do away with all need to work for your skill and tria.
While the average players get to grind their hours away at gold mines and monster spawns us roleplayers use our creativity. We earn money by starting up businesses, creating auctions, providing services the game mechanics can't provide yet, ... Personally I like it that way. Let the masses mine gold, I'll use my creativity to have fun and still obtain some of their precious tria. And actually I think that there are some very wealthy roleplayers around. Unlike powerlevelers, we don't feel the urge to spend all our tria in training our skills to the max.
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It really saddens me when the old, them v us (RP v PL) thing rears its head.
Just because some players choose to use the game functions, they are labled Powerlevelers. Some roleplayers like to have stats to back that up their roleplay, that makes them a PL'er too?
To me anyone that roleplays a powerfull mage/warrior without having done any of the work to reach that stage is just off their head.
Like many chars i enjoy both RP and playing the "game", i just wish the pure RP'ers would get off their high horses sometimes ;)
Can't we all just get on? :flowers:
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Are there really any powerlevellers at all? I mean, think about it. In PlaneShift, you've actually got to roleplay things out, instead of pretending to have a gazillion tria and an uber powerful axe that summons the magical pwning unicorn ninjas of the ancient land Ftw! ::|
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It really saddens me when the old, them v us (RP v PL) thing rears its head.
Just because some players choose to use the game functions, they are labled Powerlevelers. Some roleplayers like to have stats to back that up their roleplay, that makes them a PL'er too?
To me anyone that roleplays a powerfull mage/warrior without having done any of the work to reach that stage is just off their head.
Like many chars i enjoy both RP and playing the "game", i just wish the pure RP'ers would get off their high horses sometimes ;)
Can't we all just get on? :flowers:
Yes...I prefer having integrated game-mechanics+RP whenever possible or feasible. However, PP are causing some severe constraints on this because you have to do something the game-mechanics supports to get 'em and some jobs simply won't be supported by game mechanics.
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I can't see this is as an hostile approach to the topic.
The system is cute and all, and we certainly are aware it will improve, since we have been given continuous proof over the years, but it's obvious that parts of it are inconsistent as far as enforcing a roleplay environment is concerned.
Systems like Progression Points make it that fighting is a number one priority in a setting where people should be allowed to do whatever they want (since it is supposed to be realistic.) It makes sense that powerful mages exist, and it makes sense that someone who hasn't leveled as a mage isn't considered a powerful mage. The system is there for something. What doesn't make sense is that a fighter can be a mage, a miner, a crafter a whatever with just the effort of hacking and slashing. What doesn't make sense is that all fighters can. What doesn't make sense is that a mediocre fighter can be richer than a mediocre crafter (who had to spend 10 times more effort into becoming mediocre since he earns little PPs in his craft.) That's ridiculous. Powerleveling isn't the most important problem, a system that makes powerleveling easy is.
The system is Powerleveling friendly, though it's found lacking in roleplay friendship. Book writing was implemented a short time ago. Before that we saw lots of spells, revamps in the fighting system, new weapons, etc. There are little utility crafts and spells, but you can't get enough fighting stuff. It's my opinion, and probably Donari's, that the priorities are set wrong.
Hence her passive request in giving more emphasis to roleplay in the future. Claiming "Woe is me another one of these threads" hasn't helped so far. Maybe leaning deeper into it and getting satisfactory answers from players, Devs or GMs might be helpful though.
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Sangwa, I stated this many times in past and probably will state it many times to come: Planeshift isn't really a roleplaying game. It lacks roleplaying features.
Over the recent months I learnt that stating as little is enough to make local top roleplayers accuse you of not being a roleplayer.
I also learnt the dev team fully aknowledges these problems and works hard to turn it all upside down, giving more dvantage to the roleplayers.
So please, who is more aware of this situation? ;)
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I believe you havent read the latest Herald yet @ Waylander...
I have actually. Besides a few things which bothered me (I think Elvi is a guy :P ) I enjoyed it. And then I bugged you about my book ;)
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There will always be heavy balancing issues as long as PlaneShift is a tech demo. We know that the combat system will be changed in the future and, though it makes things annoying for now, it's just something we must endure.
One may point out that books have been fixed, guildhouses have been added and plate armor has been added within a few weeks. The Dev team is obviously busy and doing a great job.
@Draklar: God
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Settings has been very actively moving in a RP direction for some time . . . You will see . . .
Engine also has some hardcore rpers on it's team so . . .You will see . . .
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Sangwa, I stated this many times in past and probably will state it many times to come: Planeshift isn't really a roleplaying game. It lacks roleplaying features.
Over the recent months I learnt that stating as little is enough to make local top roleplayers accuse you of not being a roleplayer.
I also learnt the dev team fully aknowledges these problems and works hard to turn it all upside down, giving more dvantage to the roleplayers.
So please, who is more aware of this situation? ;)
We want to be aware as well. Blind trust equals idiocy.
If you have learned that much, I'd like if someone could instruct the rest of us on that as well. In fact, that's the only thing I believe Donari's asking. To be reassured that the development of planeshift will start leaning more on roleplay.
we have said before that changes will come and balance will come and that we are working on it, that should be enough.
It's not enough. Why should it be enough? Factual examples would be in order, to please my beloved ego.
You've implemented books, that's nice. Implemented guild houses, that's nice (though without actually correcting the economy before implementing such an economy break through). Will the economy start making sense? Will you correct the leveling system? Will you begin implementing utility items before implementing the next weapon? Will the next spell that is created be another attack spell or will it have another use, like reducing fall damage/allowing for quicker movement/<insert other non attack effect here>?
I must warn that I may be out of date as far as what is implemented is concerned. I wouldn't mind being told wrong and welcomed into a world of improvements after though.
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In regard of the original topic, made by Donari, I have to leave a comment:
Donari, we both know a lot of people who have pl'ed their stats and skills and gained trias by powerlevelling a skill to finally get a living from it (I am included here), we both also know people who create chars for RP only and delete them when the RP is over, also we both know people who RP their chars and are rich without training them at all (or even very hardly) - But does it mean that Powerlevellers DO not RP at all? Or does it mean that RP'ers should not train at all? I think it is ones own decision how to play the game, either by pure rp'ing, or by pure leveling, or by combining level and RP doesn't really matter, as everyone plays the game to have fun (I suppose)
The thing is, that Planeshift is a computer game, not a tabletop game. If everyone would ONLY RP their chars, without training them, then the devs could stop their work, remove combat system, remove fightable npc's, remove more than the half of the items which are available. but then also half of the players are gone (probably more).
I agree that there needs to be more balance in-game, but that is something the rules department has to do (like balancing stamina, magic, hit chance, damage, gold rate at the mines and whatnotever)
Powerlevelling is indeed boring like hell, but who says people have to powerlevel? many do so, many camp the mobs and complain when you run around and take it once or twice before running away again, but those or mostly people who are new to the game. Potential roleplayers are willing to learn some rp, the rest will just level and level and level and realize once that there is no need to level, since there is no constant enemy that needs to be beaten (like in other games, where two or more parties have a war against eachother and all the game is based on that).
Anyways, about the guildhouse: The devs have set up this house to be the first guildhouse, there is work behind it, not just a click. They probably were surprised too by the fact that it was already rp'ed as a guildhouse by lolitra and had to quickly make something up IC when they got to know. remember that not everyone knew it was lolitras house and expecting everyone to know it is also rediculous. Perhaps a dev knew it, perhaps a gm knew it too, but the specific devs who made this up did not know and Talads spontanous reaction wasn't that bad if you ask me, the char Lolitra may have missed to pay the taxes, or the person who was sent to pay them has lost them and didn't tell anyone or whatever COULD have happened, the result was the taxes were not payed and the house was therefor auctioned.
Another point. the char Donari doesn't train or mine gold, you rp her as a merchant and was therefor able to get enough money. other people RP a pauper, would it make sense if a pauper bought the house? what hinders other people to RP their way? does every RP char need a house?
Greetings,
Cebot
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To tell the truth there are lots of good points made here. There is always a roleplay vs powerleveling problem. You see it obviously. However its not an easy problem to solve. Newbies, when playing a MMORPG, usually think first to powerlevel. Its because its out there in so many games. Some who notice the rp side to this game slowly convert, however most still keep the powerleveling idea. In the end you get half a game of power levelers, a quarter powerleveling rpers, and the rest are the only hardcore rpers. Thats how I see this game seperated currently.
Fact is how things are there is no way to stop someone from powerleveling. Anyone by game mechanics can do anything, max at any skill, etc. As long as that remains and we can all spend days to max every skill on the game powerleveling will never disappear. As long as we all have the ability to powerlevel there will always be someone who does it.
I stated this many times in past and probably will state it many times to come: Planeshift isn't really a roleplaying game.
This statement if any is true. I don't feel the reason why is because it lacks the features needed for rping (though it does). I think its because it has the features needed for powerleveling. Even with more rping features you will still run into the same problems as long as powerleveling is possible. How many powerlevelers are going to suddenly become merchants just because there is a better system for it? How many merchants are still going to be uber warriors?
The only way to rid powerleveling is to get rid of the one thing that always makes it possible. The ability to max every stat, wield every weapon, and ultimately become all powerful. Any other MMOPRG that is known for powerlevelers (like WoW) does not limit the characters from being able to master every aspect in the game. I always here "well this game isn't going to be like WoW" yet they keep the one thing that ties them to the powerleveling world.
Basically the only day when powerleveling will be at end is the day where there are no means to powerlevel, people would be limited to mastering only certain parts of the game. Once that happens none will have to worry about powerlevelers because everyone can't do everything. Only warriors and mages will fight, merchants will get rich, herbalist and alchemist would make potions, etc etc.
In response to you cebot I do agree. Firstly its not bad to level your character if your leveling stats to better enhance your rp. While I still refuse to do any training with my character Duraza you would find my other characters training inorder to have stats with game mechanics that match the character they rp. Leveling isn't bad, just unbalanced at the time because of many reasons.
As to this whole thing about Lolitra's house, yes it was her house first, however remember that firstly your dealing with a goverment. They said that she didn't pay taxes, you said she was never given any taxes or that she has payed her taxes, it doesn't matter. Fact is RPLY a goverment has the right to claim the house, even under what you would rply say is a bad excuse. If Lolitra lost her home then that would be something to add to her rp, not a reason to complain. Possibly she start speaking to people about the unjustness of Ylikuam. Maybe she might start to further herself from their goverment, maybe it could effect your own characters as well. I was using an alt while watching the scene and I must say that when Talad gave you an rp reason many there responded oocly instead of icly. All that happened was ooc complaints instead of taking what he said as an IC challenge. If your character decides to believe that goverment is corrupt all more power to her, its something that would be reflected by an IC happening.
When it comes to devs playing there own game more it is true. However do you expect a high priest of talad to really care about whoever lived in that house? I doubt that someone (who rped to be close to the octarch) would even know many in Hydlaa. Same for the octarch if he/she were to appear. I doubt an octarch would care much, maybe not even knowing any of the citizens in Hydlaa. Its common for rulers to not know their own people.
In the end Lolitra got her house so I'd take that as a win and not a loss to complain about ;)
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This statement if any is true. I don't feel the reason why is because it lacks the features needed for rping (though it does). I think its because it has the features needed for powerleveling. Even with more rping features you will still run into the same problems as long as powerleveling is possible. How many powerlevelers are going to suddenly become merchants just because there is a better system for it? How many merchants are still going to be uber warriors?
Very true.
On the other matter, I think some people are missing the point if any other house was set for auctioning, the purrty people would still have to *imagine* that the house belongs to them. Now it's theirs. For real. They can walk inside. Would it be better if only other houses could be bought, while this one remained imaginary?
Or maybe the house should be given for free? Surely this wouldn't spawn even more complaints from people who may find that unfair.
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I think this roleplay vs. powerlevelling argument is a typical example of a problem everybody understands backward.
The problem is this: is the game meant to become a game friendly to people who purely RP, or a game friendly to people who like to work their butts off to improve their characters? the devs have answered this long ago: they do not like people who work their butts off. "They're all in it for the money" is what I heard some say.
Ok, so the game is meant to be a pure RP game. Fair enough, if that's what the designers want, after all it's their game. With that assumption, those who like to amass tons of trias and weapons and skills just for the sake of it can get stuffed and that's fine.
So what do we do in a pure RP game? hmm let's see, why wouldn't I create a newspaper for example (let's call it the Yliakum Herald for no particular reason)? That's pure RP right? well, I need some money to buy books before I can sell them. I need to pay article writers, paperboys. I need money for the contest. Got the drift? I need money. Where do I find money? nowhere easily, because the devs don't like those who make money. In case you wondered, I started the Herald with pre-goldmine-neutering money, and I lost over 100K in the venture. If you think Cila makes a pretty buck out of it now, you're wrong. He works too much for what he'll ever get. There's a RPer for you: he works for free, doesn't try to max his stats. And yet he needs money.
Another example: let's say I want to RP a dark, shadowy fighter. I want to be a lone hunter who prowls the great outdoors and kills just for fun. From time to time I come to town and walk around slowly amongst frightened people with my body armor covered in dried up blood. Body armor you say? 22K for the new (very nice, by the way) heavy armor set. Not to mention actual fighting skills. Oh well, I guess I'll have to mine for the next 5 decades before RPing a lone hunter then.
Okay, so the fighter is out. How about a musician? I'll be an artist, a pan flute player, concerned with the art and nothing more. And it's great because I got this pan flute from a quest and that's free. Oops, too bad, the pan flute doesn't play anything anyway (but I'll grant you, the game is far from finished). I could just /say lala-dilala perhaps... nah...
I'll be a crafter then. Someone who creates beautiful swords out of raw steel, with unmatched skills to make objects people admire. Skill? oops, costs money. And people will never buy my swords, since they don't have enough money either.
Crafter is out then. What sort of person are we left with to RP? someone who doesn't need money obviously. Someone who doesn't need too many skills either, since it takes money to train. I guess a beggar? well, you'd be right: this is the best RP I've seen so far, namely Eurac the dwarf, who incidentally told me he was getting tired of spending hours walking around Harnquist's asking for a few coin. Surprise surprise...
I know what people will say: do quests! ok, I recently picked up a certain quest and the NPC asked 50K! gasp!... That's a long time mining to finish the quest. Not to mention certain other quests where you end up paying 200 here, 400 there, and those that require you to kill Ulbernauts that are unkillable without skills you have to pay for. And gee, even for "free" quests, do I really want to spend my time in-game talking to a broken AI? Not really, I want to RP with other people.
My point, if you didn't get it, is that even people who like pure RP need to develop their characters, and that takes money in the current gaming system. Heck, even in pen-and-paper RPGs players need to develop their characters. Unless of course money is taken out of the equation entirely, and then there's no difference between advanced players and newbies apart sheer imagination, and even then, since there's not remotely enough objects to develop a role with, it would get boring real quick...
What I'm trying to say, devs, is that yes, your work is highly appreciated, but the way the game works right now, by favoring RP over PL, you end up killing both. You don't seem to realize that and it's maddening. Why not simply accept that some people will get filthy rich and powerful quickly (oh the horror!) so that those who want to RP can do so as well? and quite frankly, while you seem to dislike PLers with all your heart, what do they do in-game that's so wrong? after all, it's someone with a pile of money who bought the house, isn't it? The house wouldn't have sold 6 months from now when everybody will be broke.
I think this is what people are constantly trying to tell you, that you take for bitching and criticism. We all love PS, otherwise we wouldn't be playing, so we're all grateful to all of you for what your hard work, but I reckon there are only so many misguided "adjustments" you can do to the game before you drive people away and end up with a wasteland instead of a thriving community.
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Wow....I am truly amazed this did not turn into a flaming thread, but instead lots of good things were mentioned. There is only one thing I need to make clear. For me, there is a difference between being a miner and a powerleveller. The latter one acts like the three apes -hear nothing, see nothing, say nothing-. He does not roleplay his character in any way, the only thing he does is hitting a shortcut and selling his ores to Harnquist. There is nothing to critize in roleplaying a miner, however, you really need to roleplay ithe character.
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I have no problem with plers :)
Or rp junkies.
one problem i see is that some people take pling to be anything other than sitting around pretending BS off the top of their heads, if you want to do that go back to mushes or muds or PnP.
My favorite character are the ones who roleplay with game mechanics to support their rp
second favorite is rpers who play make believe but do it well and do not hate on others for pursuing the game in a different way
my third favorite is plers who do not interrupt other people's rps or bully people.
I dislike rpers who are snobby or drive new players from the game.
I dislike plers who make rping hard for those who enjoy roleplaying.
if the paper costs more to make, charge more, it is that simple.
People need money, ok, but they do not need 200k a day.
donari many of those are probably bots.
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Disclaimer: I am actually Xillix's favourite kind of player. He just doesn't want to say it :P
@Giraut: Devs want a happy medium, neither those who pretend everything nor those who think they know somebodies name because it's on top of their head, are the players devs want to get.
The simple fact is that we have combat, mining and a little bit of crafting ingame, the devs have a long way to go. Over time I'm sure there will be ways of earning tria and PP suitable to everybody's taste. :)
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if the paper costs more to make, charge more, it is that simple.
What you don't seem to understand is that people have less and less money thanks to the mine adjustments. Charge more => sell less => eventually stop the paper business because it's just not worth the effort => one less RP activity. Same for crafters.
It's like in real-life you know: when people don't have money, they don't buy, and in the game, that kills activities that support roleplay. This is my whole point.
People need money, ok, but they do not need 200k a day.
People make 200K a day? so what? let them do it: they'll max out in no time, and then they'll get bored and go away. Those who remain in the game will be those who have a "life" in-game, so to speak.
You have this epidermic reaction when people make too much money for some reason. You know, in 1917, a bunch of folks in Russia decided rich people shouldn't be rich, and they ended up making everybody else miserable for decades. Let Planeshift PLers have all the money they want, they'll just exhaust the game, miss the point of RPing and they'll go away on their own. What's the big deal really?
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when there is too much money people whine, when we change it people whine.
lol, there is no winning with you people, i give up. :surrender:
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Don't worry Xillix people just like to complain, what other reason do you have for these forums? :D
its just training that i see as a problem, its such a big money sink that people use up so much money in that, that people like Giraut can't make enough money selling things to other players, because they are busy training so then he can't train himself, which discourages him about his roleplays and then he stops with them.
as Giraut said, that would also make the power levelers leave sooner because they have this super powerful character and nothing to do with it.
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Giraut Mawhrin, you exaggerate a bit.
I can't be sure what Draklar or others want exactly. But lets take one thing as example: I also do agree that there are features, which are breaking RPing by supporting PLing and not RPing at the same time. And it is these features, which need to go out and be replaced with others...
So that what you say can make sense:
Another example: let's say I want to RP a dark, shadowy fighter. I want to be a lone hunter who prowls the great outdoors and kills just for fun. From time to time I come to town and walk around slowly amongst frightened people with my body armor covered in dried up blood. Body armor you say? 22K for the new (very nice, by the way) heavy armor set. Not to mention actual fighting skills. Oh well, I guess I'll have to mine for the next 5 decades before RPing a lone hunter then.
A hunter, who track and kills his prey, bring the skins to town and make a living from it. Will that make sense in PS? Not really. It could be possible and you could say it is now... if you ignore few things.
It is not worth at all killing these wild creatures, coz you will do far better mass killing rogues or gladiators and selling their stuff to smiths, which are just near. There is no point to be a lone hunter. You can RP that, but you will loose the spirit of such an RP very fast. And not only because of that, but because you will soon realise that killing 1-3 beasts max and the going back to town to sell the skins makes no sense, because you can kill 100 of them and then go back to town and repeat^^ - Now, this is no longer a hunter, but a butcher, i don't know, it is hard for me to find the right word, because such profession has no place in our real reality, from which the profession "hunter is originating.
I don't think anyone is stopping you from making money, we just want this to be more real, because if it isn't, you can't RP half of this what you should, because it makes no sense.
If you complain at what people say there and use term "Pure RP" this makes one to think, that you vaue PLing a lot, and you need it to be efficient and not being too hard (in reletion to some common sense we bring from other games) . It would be fine if not that, that by supporting such behaviour, you are screwing RP of others, by just being there and making professions of other people pointless.
In the end, i'm not saying i want to ban PLing. I do enjoy training my skills and earning tria. Who doesn't want to be at least a bit rich by what he do? I do want though that the PLing be happening by the way the RP, not the other side. I think it is possible in real envitoment, not corrupted by gaming artifacts.
So yeah, you are going to level up less efficient... but once it would be not possible to level up more efficiently, the resourcess needed to skill up would be lower too.
Now someone who don't know what the hell i'm talking about may need an example, so i try to put it short.
We don't go in the wild or to arena, to kill respawning enemies. But we go there and on arena, we are meeted for a fight, for money. No looting. It makes no sense in arena where gladiators fight for fame and honor and alike.
In the wild we track to finally find and kill the prey we can take valuable things from it. A fur, skin, how many of they you can wear and bring to town at the same time? 5 max i think. So it is that many beasts you kill, no mass killing, because going back to town takes time.
Who knows, maybe rogues ambush you and you have to defend yourself and if you win, you can loot their stuff.
There is no calculating and knowing exactly which NPCs of the same kind are how strong, you can ever know. Fighting is dangerous, really!
The examples go on and there is one point: So that fighting things stops being economical calculation and starts a real profession and style of RP life.
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Giraut Mawhrin: What you don't seem to understand is that in Yliakum there is a certain amount of money that different "classes" make and a certain amount of money that is supposed to go around the world. "Let them keep their 200k a day" is just as ridiculous as telling Xillix to let people roleplay things that would never be seen on all the levels. A healthy, trained Ptero is supposedly 45,000 tria total - that's how the world works. That's what Xillix, Xordan, and others are building towards. And to tell them to quit doing their job doesn't many any sense. You think leaving all this tria in the world is balancing? I admit it's a very touchy subject these days, but you're not giving us time to implement anything without drowning us in complaints. "Hold on, this is step 1!" brings cries of "Fix it now!" or "Change it back!" or "You don't know what you're doing!" Nor will we take any prophesying about the community becoming a wasteland or this game dying seriously - because I personally have been hearing this since three years ago, about anything from the very introduction of combat to restructuring our GM team. So please refrain from trying to scare us.
Yes, training is a big money sink. However, I've already posted that I think lowering the costs is a great idea, Jeraphon, agreed, and mentioned Xillix might be on the same page. I did mention we are far from done working on this.
Please, just don't expect a finished perfect system within a matter of weeks, because it's not going to happen. Xordan and TomT have been doing a lot of really great thinking on the economy and best ways to manage this and that, Xillix and Jeraphon are pondering it with every quest reward they give, we've had many internal ideas floating around about changing the PP system to let training make more sense, etc.
What do you wish to tell us that we don't already know and haven't taken into consideration?
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Basically the only day when powerleveling will be at end is the day where there are no means to powerlevel, people would be limited to mastering only certain parts of the game. Once that happens none will have to worry about powerlevelers because everyone can't do everything. Only warriors and mages will fight, merchants will get rich, herbalist and alchemist would make potions, etc etc.
I personally dislike that system, many other mmorpg's restrict the players to classes, something i hope will never happen to PS.
Reason is simple: A man (or woman) may RP a warrior at first, but what is a warrior needed for in times of peace? right, he has nothing to do, so he probably will spend time with other things, maybe learning some magic, or becoming a writer who writes down the stories of the wars he has seen. or starts a business of any other kind. the same goes for a miner character. one day something may happen to him that makes him unable to carry all the ores around, or swing a rock pick, he then will have nothing to do but thinking of any other kind of work he can do...or just drown hisself in alcohol to forget about this miserable life? :D
I really like the idea that people in yliakum can become everything they want. but at some point i agree, bloating up a character with everything that is there seems to be unrealistic too. IRL it would take years to learn the art of fighting, or getting to know the best ways to drag the ores out of the ground, or learn the best magic spells and encrease those spells with more power, but then there are chars being a fighting-miner-mage-merchant-guard-thief-murderer-hunter (you know what i mean :P)
For me, there is a difference between being a miner and a powerleveller. The latter one acts like the three apes -hear nothing, see nothing, say nothing-.
Heh, calling me an ape? :D
joking. Sadly it's true, a lot of people just do that, but look at which people do it. it are mostly newer players that just do nothing but leveling, hitting the shortcut in the mines, camping a mob and complain when someone comes around and hunts. I can remember my first weeks in the game, I was such a noob and got mad at those who came and took the mob i was camping (was before i created cebot) but i have learned from other players, including those i have been mad at, before. Therefor my idea is to care for the newbies, seperate those willing to learn about rp from those who play a game, not a role and not wanting to rp, support the potential rp'ers and leave the others behind.
(for example when telling someone in a nice way the difference between IC and OOC and he keeps bitching around ooc'ly, then why even bother to talk with him ic'ly?)
Donari, the most important reason why the people at the mines are hardly talking is that they probably watch the system tab to see when they were unseccessfully, or talking in guildchat or tells or whatever. perhaps the devs could make the unseccessful message an On Screen Message, like the one for being successfully. Another reason may be that mining requires you to pay full attention to the job, to not accidently hit your feet :D (OOC'ly, the time it takes from starting the work until succeeding/failing, it doesn't leave much time to chat, or you'll be a very slow miner and won't earn much :))
Greetings,
Cebot
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And to tell them to quit doing their job doesn't many any sense. You think leaving all this tria in the world is balancing?
As I said, the way the game works right now, I think you're better off leaving people too rich and live with PLers, so you don't drive away RPers, That's all I said.
Now really if I were you, instead of wasting my time "balancing" the economy (which you can never do because the price any NPC buys any item is fixed, and the number of players is always on the rise), I'd be busy developing an AI for the NPCs that buy things, so as to take into the availability of the different items they can buy, and eventually let all prices float. Then after that you won't have to balance anything at all.
And yes, I know, you've already thought about it.
I admit it's a very touchy subject these days, but you're not giving us time to implement anything without drowning us in complaints. "Hold on, this is step 1!" brings cries of "Fix it now!" or "Change it back!" or "You don't know what you're doing!"
I'm not complaining. I was just expressing my opinion about the way you guys develop Yliakum as a community. Quite frankly, PS is just a game to me, I have touchier things to occupy my days.
What do you wish to tell us that we don't already know and haven't taken into consideration?
Well, excuse the hell out of me for having the gall to think you guys might want the input of simple users. I was considering contribute code to CS, now I most certainly won't. Thanks for the great attitude.
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Powerlevelers is a bad label ... this topic should be called "Roleplay vs. Non-roleplay".
You have people who create an original character with it's own personality ... and if their character happens to be a miner who spends hour after hour in the mines making a living, then that's perfectly fine. If that character is a warrior who dedicates his/her life to training in the arena ... nothing wrong there. However you also have people who don't bother about creating a character's personality but only care about getting more skills and more tria. Those are the people that will jump on any new stat, skill or job .. especially those with exploitable bugs .. and then whine on the forums as soon as something becomes harder. :P
The former type of people should be encouraged by some sort of system that rewards someone for staying in-character.
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Giraut Mawhrin: We're not CrystalSpace, we use their engine :) They have other projects as well, so I think it would be a very silly move on your part if that's indeed what you were interested in. I hope it's not simply you having a fear now that you might accidentally end up contributing to PS too.
As I said, the way the game works right now, I think you're better off leaving people too rich and live with PLers, so you don't drive away RPers, That's all I said.
And at what point would we have player approval to change this? At what point is our effort to actually improve something for you guys not going to be considered wasted and better spent somewhere else, ignoring the fact that those who take care of rules are not the same devs who know how to code and implement features or develop NPC AI? Things weren't changed because one developer woke up one morning and thought to himself, "I wonder what would happen if..." We changed some things around because after a lot of thought, it was decided to be one of the necessary steps towards a better environment for you. What you are saying is effectively "Change it back," calling our choices misguided, and speaking as though we have no idea what we've done.
Now that upsets me.
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And to tell them to quit doing their job doesn't many any sense. You think leaving all this tria in the world is balancing?
As I said, the way the game works right now, I think you're better off leaving people too rich and live with PLers, so you don't drive away RPers, That's all I said.
Now really if I were you, instead of wasting my time "balancing" the economy (which you can never do because the price any NPC buys any item is fixed, and the number of players is always on the rise), I'd be busy developing an AI for the NPCs that buy things, so as to take into the availability of the different items they can buy, and eventually let all prices float. Then after that you won't have to balance anything at all.
And yes, I know, you've already thought about it.
The Dev team isn't wasting time balancing this economy. The Dev team is spending time working towards an economy that can be balanced. Where NPCs don't have fixed prices and so on.
I admit it's a very touchy subject these days, but you're not giving us time to implement anything without drowning us in complaints. "Hold on, this is step 1!" brings cries of "Fix it now!" or "Change it back!" or "You don't know what you're doing!"
I'm not complaining. I was just expressing my opinion about the way you guys develop Yliakum as a community. Quite frankly, PS is just a game to me, I have touchier things to occupy my days.
This is mainly a general comment. Granted, you are giving your opinion but, many many others do nothing more than complain.
What do you wish to tell us that we don't already know and haven't taken into consideration?
Well, excuse the hell out of me for having the gall to think you guys might want the input of simple users. I was considering contribute code to CS, now I most certainly won't. Thanks for the great attitude.
They do want input they just don't want the same input over and over again ;)
As opposed to blaming the Devs for having "great attitudes" perhaps you should look around you at the thousands of idiotic, self centered and useless posts. The player base has whittled away at the patience of the Devs, blame them.
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Giraut Mawhrin
CS is an entirely different entity than ps, and we devs can be a bit sensitive at times.
Players do not get to see internal discussions so it is hard for you to know what we are considering.
Great effort has been made to make it possible to get player feedback, but if you look around on the forums there is a lot of room for growth in this regard.
Zan you are right, our big concern is how to do so without people exploiting such rp rewarding systems, but don't go thinking we do not want the same thing.
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We're not CrystalSpace, we use their engine :) They have other projects as well, so I think it would be a very silly move on your part if that's indeed what you were interested in. I hope it's not simply you having a fear now that you might accidentally end up contributing to PS too.
I never wanted to contribute to PS. I've done enough engineering to know when to stay away from a project.
We changed some things around because after a lot of thought, it was decided to be one of the necessary steps towards a better environment for you. What you are saying is effectively "Change it back," calling our choices misguided, and speaking as though we have no idea what we've done.
I don't know whom you talked to to decide the mine thing for example, but it wasn't anybody I know in-game. I never meet anybody who's happy about the little depression you caused. Now, if you have a grand plan and this is step one, perhaps you would care to expose it to us? Maybe we'd understand.
I do think your choices are misguided, and I reckon you guys should consider the possibility that people outside your tight-knit group can have better ideas about the situation. It doesn't take a PhD in economy to figure out that any adjustment you make to the input and output of trias is bound to be constantly wrong, since the NPCs buy at fixed price and the yield of any commodity (be it mines or loot) is tied to the number of players extracting it. My opinion is that, until you let prices float, you're better off letting too much money into the economy. That way, the only people who have fun in-game are the RPers, and that's what you want.
Now that upsets me.
What upsets me is a forum where users are invited (presumably) to express their opinion, and the powers-that-be peremptorily dismiss it on the ground that they think they know better. Well, here's what I see myself: 7 years in development, and 400,000+ account registrations, and yet the game is still officially alpha (it's not really, it's beta, but saying "it's alpha" it's a good way to deflect criticism), and only 50-150 players online at any given time? I'd say it's a pretty big turnover, if I were you I'd ask myself why it is that people don't want to keep playing...
This said, I'm done posting here. I'll go back in my corner now.
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She never said you did. She was saying that if you wish to join CS team, do so. Don't let the fact that you don't like one of their projects stop you.
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If the devs have to lay out a plan for every change they do PlaneShift will develop slowly. The mining was changed by the devs, I'm sure they have something in the works. I understand your opinion but the players need to realize it's an unfinished game and there will be balancing issues. Especially in the economy. It would be silly for the devs to hold back every change to the economy until they can add all of them. That would be months without change and then much too much to test when the economy changes happened.
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Forums users are invited to express their opinions IF they read the stickies and use the search button. Many do not. Repeating the same thing over and over again is annoying.
It's officialy a tech demo. And considering it is open source it has been related to commercial games in alpha in relation to the amount of features. This is a completely correct comparison.
All the best games were unplayable early on, I don't see why players think this game should be so amazing this early in development.
Anybody who points out the 7 years will be ridiculed by me ;) Volunteers working on freetime, don't compare it to commercial games.
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This said, I'm done posting here. I'll go back in my corner now.
Stay there. :P As you said your free to express your opinion. No one said someone would listen to you.
I personally dislike that system, many other mmorpg's restrict the players to classes, something i hope will never happen to PS.
You know what I mean :P. Eventually there should be balance. For example I can be a born warrior but can I also become a magical expert? No, but I can still learn a little about magic. Maybe I'm a merchant but does that mean i can't learn a few tricks with the sword? Like that, I didn't mean specific classes.
Now someone who don't know what the hell i'm talking about may need an example, so i try to put it short.
We don't go in the wild or to arena, to kill respawning enemies. But we go there and on arena, we are meeted for a fight, for money. No looting. It makes no sense in arena where gladiators fight for fame and honor and alike.
In the wild we track to finally find and kill the prey we can take valuable things from it. A fur, skin, how many of they you can wear and bring to town at the same time? 5 max i think. So it is that many beasts you kill, no mass killing, because going back to town takes time.
Who knows, maybe rogues ambush you and you have to defend yourself and if you win, you can loot their stuff.
There is no calculating and knowing exactly which NPCs of the same kind are how strong, you can ever know. Fighting is dangerous, really!
The examples go on and there is one point: So that fighting things stops being economical calculation and starts a real profession and style of RP life.
Is there a game like that you know of because I want to play it ;D That would surely be a nice game in my opinion. It doesn't sound too much like one thats powerleveling and the game mechanics would only enhance rp. Almost as if rping without game mechanics would only be chatting, the rest done purely with what the game has given you.
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"I don't know whom you talked to to decide the mine thing for example, but it wasn't anybody I know in-game. I never meet anybody who's happy about the little depression you caused."
I don't know anyone who would typically express happiness if their income was reduced from the astronomical to the subsistence level, that does not mean we should not do it.
"Now, if you have a grand plan and this is step one, perhaps you would care to expose it to us? Maybe we'd understand."
We are under a binding NDA, as usual, we tell you what Talad chooses to make public. It should be enough when we tell you we are working on it. Propsal have been flying around for a while, changes will come in time. Because development is internal none of you currently have a realistic picture of the # of people working for which team etc. Things are getting done, and the economy is fairly high on our priority list.
Of course if we fix this here is what will happen, "omfg, why did you choose to fix the economy before finishing plate mail for all races? I hate this game" or, "omfg, this floating point things is too realistic, this is a game, i want to have fun"
If you really look around the forum you can see the the devs are inundated with some brash claims, some woeful demands, insults and backseat devs. You will excuse us not having rosy dispositions.
Look what players have done with the gold change, now you tell me you want to cut into your skills making harder to be all things?
/me looks around for a means.
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you can't know without joining the team.
The funny thing is i wanted to flame a bit at him, coz he are not listening what others write there, what is true. He are ignorant.
But it is also true that because everything inside the dev group is so secret, you start wondering what the heck is wrong, when for instance people want to contribute and they are waiting months for this to happen. How many did give up?
Now, he playes so all-knowing self-centered guy, but he has a good point. Maybe there is no point to devote yourself to this project, if 90% of the time you could spent on helping it, you have to ask devs around of they implement what they did? Maybe he has good reasons to believe the talent he can put into the project isn't worth the bugging around? Or he can nothing and thinks he is amaizing and want to feel us bad about he not helping. Now i suppose some certain people know what i'm talking about, but i hope writing all this won't put me in bad light?
I'm just saying. One time you show us amaizing work and the other time you give nothing to kill our concerns, when we have good reasons to believe the game could have develop better.
Duraza, I don't know of a game, where we had it. But then i don't know a single MMO truely RP. I consider PS inside it as of this moment. Maybe that's why its called tech demo? But that is why i give idea, so hopefully it is going to change.
I don't know anyone who would typically express happiness if their income was reduced from the astronomical to the subsistence level, that does not mean we should not do it.
You forgot about me ;P But there is a chance, i didn't have an occassion for it, near you ;P
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I may be wrong about this, and if I am please correct me.
But I believe most contributions are handled quite well.
It is a fine line to walk though, too much information will ruin the surprise, too little and it's hard to know what to contribute.
If you want to add to the game, apply to the dev teams, write bug reports, post opinions (With proper usage of the search feature) and let dead dogs lie.
If the devs say "We are working on it", believe them. I understand you want to make sure they are doing it correctly, make sure they aren't forgetting anything but, there are very many players and if each gets to check on it, development would nearly halt. Instead, wait until it is out. There is a feature request option in the bug tracker, if you think they forgot something, put it there :)
Players and Devs are, at the moment, practically at each others throats. There's no need to play the blame game, one should instead look to rectifying it. Players need to be more polite, Devs, more understanding.
In this case, it is up to the players to make the first move. If you see an impolite post, reply to it, asking the poster to be more polite and then add your two cents. Don't attack the player for his impoliteness, merely point it out.
Can't we all... just... get along? ;)
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Players and Devs are, at the moment, practically at each others throats.
Really? ;P maybe i don't know of something. Or you are just talking about this certain topic?
I been suprised there were complaints on the topic of recent guild house.
I were very suprised by what Gag wrote recently... hmm i don't know, maybe something broke inside of him?
Anyway is it worse than usual? I'm not saying its usually bad, hehe. I just wonder if something is going on?
hah, and I wrote all starting from your short sentence ;D
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I personally think that the players need to be a bit more adaptable (I was actually OK with the change to gold, for instance). Also, what are we going to do to stop people from griefing by interfering with RPs intentionally or by other means (killing random players for no IC reason, for instance)?
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Ignoring them and declining duels are all I know about for now, Kaerli.
Niko: It's not that bad, just posts are taking on a more angry tone :)
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/me hugs Xillix "your doing a great job keep it up"
Okay I will admit I have not read all of the posts skimed though most of them, but really guys everyone take a deep breath, and calm down. Everything is going to be okay.
I do admit I am not 100% fully happy with the gold nerf, but that's life, I am not so happy with my own rl finanaces eaither, but I do what I can to get by from day to day. The idea is they are working on things, testing diffrent ideas, and seeing what works and what does not, and we as the players and the testers have to give it a fair trial with an open mind.
No one can work with people always putting them down and complaining, try encouragement every once and awhile, you might be pleastly suprized.
Just remeber, the glass is not always half emtpy, but sometimes it is half full.
*Edit
I'd also like to add that I have two char's that roleplay a lot, and one of them has to be strong in her roleplay so I have to do some "powerleveling" but honestly that bores me quite quickly and, yes it has become very hard to train her up, but not impossable, and with all the hard work I put into her it just makes me even more proud. and I roleplay trough most of my training as well. It's not hard to do to both, and I know lots do it. For me the game is more about Roleplay, I have had many frineds quit this game in the short time I have been playing and they have tired to get me to go with them, I have tried a few other mmorpg's, they have player names like bannaman and 2cute or whatever adn they dont have any roleplay, that's what I enjoy the most.
I do have one complaint about the gold thing however, nothing major but I do think its a tad hard to get any if you are a weak noob, not only can you not hold much, and you run out of mental stamina extreemly fast, and you have to dig for a long time to get any...but on top of all this..you are also threated by extreemly strong ulbers....if you ask me thats a tad overkill..but I am sure you have your reasons.
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and I roleplay trough most of my training as well. It's not hard to do to both, and I know lots do it.
*claps* I finally don't feel like some weird rp freak when I role play hunting tefusangs and I talk to myself.... :'(
Can't we all... just... get along? ;)
Never. :P
Duraza, I don't know of a game, where we had it. But then i don't know a single MMO truely RP. I consider PS inside it as of this moment. Maybe that's why its called tech demo? But that is why i give idea, so hopefully it is going to change.
I was just playing. Fact is I've had to much disappointed with the lack of rping in other MMORPGs. Then I don't like table top games because there is too much rp and too little game mechanics for me...Right now I have a few problems with ps but so far its the best for me so I'm probably not going to change....plus since so few games support macs I really have no choice (p.s. I'm really grateful for you guys supporting mac else I'd be bored....)
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No one can work with people always putting them down and complaining, try encouragement every once and awhile, you might be pleastly suprized.
So true! It seems like some people only post when complaining or having problems, just look through all the forum, there's hardly any post saying how great the game is, how great it is that the devs put THEIR FREE TIME into the game, how great it is to have a game that differs from all the other games out there, how great it is that this game is totally free.
Seriously people, I wonder why the devs are so calm most of the time, people are calling down their work every now and then and still the devs are polite to you guys most of the time - think about it, think about how you would react if you were a dev in this game and people were flaming you all the time...
Keep it going guys, you do a great job, thanks for this game.
I'd also like to add that I have two char's that roleplay a lot, and one of them has to be strong in her roleplay so I have to do some "powerleveling" but honestly that bores me quite quickly and, yes it has become very hard to train her up, but not impossable, and with all the hard work I put into her it just makes me even more proud. and I roleplay trough most of my training as well. It's not hard to do to both, and I know lots do it.
Agreed too. It's possible to powerlevel a char to max stats and almost maxed weapon skill within two weeks, not to forget armor and magic - and you will still find the time to roleplay this char most of the time. Think it's impossible to get a char up in skills and stats that fast and still rp all the time? Well, I have done it, I had the time to PL him, I had the time to make up a RP story for him, to give him a history that explains why he is doing what he is doing and I had time to do quests with him too, at the same time I had the time to sometimes even play with Cebot. So you see, it is possible to train and rp, just remember that you do not need 200k to begin with, remember that you do not have to boringly stay in front of a gladiator to fight it, remember that they are gladiators and use tactics too, so think about tactics you could use to beat em when you are too weak.
For me the game is more about Roleplay, I have had many frineds quit this game in the short time I have been playing and they have tired to get me to go with them, I have tried a few other mmorpg's, they have player names like bannaman and 2cute or whatever adn they dont have any roleplay, that's what I enjoy the most.
I also tried another mmorpg. it is like choosing a class, being totally restricted to that class until you have killed enough mobs to be lvl 10, then you can choose between 2 subclasses (archer: hunter / marksman) quests are boring as there is no real interaction with the npc, you just click on the npc with the BIG FAT ! above the head. and the best, I got told that most mmorpg's are like that. I know a lot have tried the same game and some have returned to PS, but why did they return? ps is soooo crappy according to what so many people say, yet the people come back after playing a finished comercial game for some time - a wild guess: most mmorpg's do not deserve the RP in the name and thats what people were missing? *shrugs* Welcome back everyone, btw :)
It saddens me tho that some of my earlier PS friends have left. but who knows, hopefully they will come back one day too.
I do have one complaint about the gold thing however, nothing major but I do think its a tad hard to get any if you are a weak noob, not only can you not hold much, and you run out of mental stamina extreemly fast, and you have to dig for a long time to get any...but on top of all this..you are also threated by extreemly strong ulbers....if you ask me thats a tad overkill..but I am sure you have your reasons.
There are 3 gold mines in game right now, since i haven't got my crafting char to play for a while i dunno how "dry" the mines really are, but for the case that all 3 are equally "dry", then why mining at the dangerous ones with an ulber horde around instead of the save one? :)
At the end i can only say: Great post Aeri! Probably one of the best in all the thread
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There are 3 gold mines in game right now, since i haven't got my crafting char to play for a while i dunno how "dry" the mines really are, but for the case that all 3 are equally "dry", then why mining at the dangerous ones with an ulber horde around instead of the save one? :)
Where is the 3rd gold mine? Please. Of the mines I know of one has working ulbers which get dumped in the silver mine, the other has ulbers that just stand there and what was the 3rd mine I knew about is now a coal mine.
A couple of things I don't get are
1. Why does the game have to be realistic? People seem to want it a realistic as possible. Realism got thrown out the window with the Enki, Kran, Klyros and us living in a stalagtite. I would have thought being consistant through out the world would have been more important. If I wanted the real world I would not be playing a computer game.
2. Why should there be a problem with people want to train to be a fighter?. What about a crafter? Both are making use of the game mechanics as provided by the developers. To be good at either you have to put the time/effort/trias into it. If people want realism, it is realistic that people study hard and put a lot of effort into something but if they do that in game they are hit with the derogatory term power leveler. They are expected to role play instead. I have just role payed I made a Q290 short sword instead of my normal Q100+. Who will give me 30k trias for it?
Anyone? I am down to my last 8 trias so another 30k would nice. :)
If people want to rp strong characters they should have the stats to back it up which is going to mean training. I still think someone typing "/me kills an ulber" in Main is nothing compared to someone that says I'll be back in 10 minutes and drops a skin at your feet when they return. I wish people would let others play the game how they want. Anywhere from from the pure role play types through to those that want to explore the game mechanics to their limit and all those people somewhere in between the 2 extremes. The name calling of power leveler or role play nazis does not help.
In case no one guessed I am still exploring the game mechanics working out what can/can not be done. If I wanted pure role play I would find a few people to sit around a table playing D&D. With what the game offers I don't think role play and nothing else should be forced onto players that don't want pure roll play.
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Zan you are right, our big concern is how to do so without people exploiting such rp rewarding systems, but don't go thinking we do not want the same thing.
Oh but I don't doubt that, Xillix ;) I know we're on the same side. I might have different ideas from time to time but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate what you guys do to get this game where it should be. If I had the time and knowledge I'd apply for the team and work with you all ... but since I don't I'll just do my part by throwing ideas on here and encouraging roleplay in-game.
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[Note: I don't have time to read the whole thread, but as I'm leaving for three full days I'm going to give my five cents now anyway.]
I've been playing this game for almost four years. There's people that played for more, there's people that played for less, that's not the point. The idea here is that I've been playing this game for four years because I believe in it. Many of us do and still leave due to the pressure the community puts in them and because they lose that which I still have, that being hope and expectation in the potential of this game.
People divide themselves between powerlevelers and roleplayers and there is a room for both of us in this game, for now. Powerlevelers, supplementing their actions with bug reports, help the game mechanics grow better, the roleplayers help make a society. The only time I actually took a big break from PlaneShift (about a year, I think...) was because the migration was made from MB to CB and the only thing you did was fight. I dislike fighting from core and the society that once existed by force quickly vanished, as did my own guild, Bloodclaw, so I left.
I'm still here now (due to the DE, no questions about that) and as far as I know I'll remain as long as life lets me. We love this game and the people that do it for us, but sometimes... we have questions. Sometimes it seems that you're moving away from what we want and so, we voice it, we complain. Are we wrong? I don't think so. Let's check the things you did since 019. What was the first thing you implemented, in terms of content, after it happened? Was it storage? Was it fishing and cooking? Nope. It was Guild Houses. They are fine, they are nice, they are what many people asked for and yet not everyone will have access to it and the way you're doing the pricing is scaring us. You auction. You don't do it like you have your head inside the settings - how would a farming guild, who's members get 250 trias a month (imagine that means 50 trias a month for the guild, you'd need 20000 members to make 1M trias a month, or with, let's say a more... earthly number, 200 members, that means 100 months until the guild has enough money), buy a guild house? Meaning: guild houses good, thank you a lot for them but they are useless for the general public who won't be able to afford it at all.
What was next? Armor. Nice again, pretty. What does it support? Fighters. It also supports that idea that you implement things in an order of flashyness instead of trying to balance the parts of the game. We know you'll do it, sometimes we ask ourselves how, as we're scared you'll pull something that will look like madness to us, or take a whole lot time to make something we actually want, you don't reply with something we can acknowledge, we complain. It's normal and you should read this part of the forums calmly, breathing slowly and remembering that lack of intelligence is everywhere. Some in the dev team may be lacking in skills required to talk with people, but remember that a lot of us do. We're stupid, unsocial, whinny, insistent and all the bad things that exist, because we're a lot of people, that's a lot of flaws put together and a lot for you to take. If you're going to deal with us you need tolerance and sympathy. If not, use some middlemen like moderators, they're supposed to know how to deal with after all.
I, myself, can wait for the storage, can wait for more crafting skills, can wait for a better economy. I've waited for four years and I hope that life will let me keep waiting. We all love you (well, not all, remember all the flaws we have? It's realistic some of us don't love you). That we complain like Donari did is only a show that we love this game and we care about it. We don't want it to be like Runescape, or any game where people just pointlessly level up: we want to make this the best game we can and sometimes we're only trying to see if our means to reach it are the same, or try to change yours because they look senseless to us. So take us for what we are and relax, we're not trying to bring you down (again: not all of us, but the part that matters. You're still supposed to treat us good, to quote the most perfect man in the world: "If someone hits you, turn the other cheek.") just trying to bring the game up.
Final note: It's normal for the PLs and RPs to hate each other. When you have two groups and "limited" resources, tensions rise, that's basic Psychology. In the end, this game should end with Powerlevelers, not by kicking them out, but by creating a system that blocks it (only letting people have a few specializations, stat caps for each race, etc.) and therefore creates something that will give us true RP immersion. We don't want to be players in-game, we want to be characters. It'll take it's time, I'll be waiting, as I believe it is possible and that you can do it. *puts two cents in the box* Thanks.
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Sorry, I hadn't mined in quite a while. Haven't noticed that the old gold mine has turned into a coal mine.
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I do not understand how people think restricting skills and levels will prevent power leveling. It will just mean that these players will max out their character within the new system all the quicker and move on to the next character, maxing it in perhaps a different manner. So instead of having one character maxed out in all skills and stats they will have five maxed out, maybe differently or maybe the same, depending on how much variety they like.
People who like nothing more than skill/stat advancement will advance regardless of the end result. It may even serve to encourage them as their goal will be that much easier to accomplish.
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Meh.
It's extremely easy to eliminate powerleveling. Probably less easy if you believe the way MMORPGs handle things is the only was these things can be handled.
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Limit the amount of Exp per day to something that doesn't take long to get.
Have increases in one skill cause decreases in another.
Limit the amount of training NPCs give out in a day.
There are quite a few ways.
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Though none of this prevents powerleveling.
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Of course it does. It just does not prevent bank cushioning. If you can only level so much for day you can't really powerlevel.
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In other words cripple the game to punish people who actually enjoy playing it to favor those who would rather just pretend?
Some specific rejoinders: Limit the amount of Exp per day to something that doesn't take long to get.
I suppose you would regulate that based on character levels but wait a character might have 50 in sword and armor and little else how much would be a good amount for this character? 2400 xp would be one monster for him. If I have 10 hours to play a day and stop getting xp after 5 minutes what do I do with the other 9 hours and 55 minutes? attempt to blow bubbles out of my butt?
Have increases in one skill cause decreases in another.
Hmm most skills start at 0 what would be the effect of negative skill numbers? If I train magic and my weapons go below 0 doe it mean I cannot even equip a weapon?
Limit the amount of training NPCs give out in a day.
This one might be a little more reasonable but how much is enough? If I want to put long hours into advancing my character why should I be limited to what someone who plays much less can earn? By the way are you talking game days or real days because game days are fairly quick so it would not be much of a restriction except at relatively low levels.
It's extremely easy to eliminate powerleveling.
well if you are going to do that I hope you would never rp a character with stats greater than what the database thinks you have, that to me is the most egregious type of power-levelling around. "Look at me I'm so powerful I don't even need to train at all to wipe you out!"
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1) it's a nice encouragement for character trading. Simply play several characters at once and trade them to other players once they have pretty damn high level. The demand would surely increase. The question is whether demand would trigger trading. Largely depends on success of the game.
2) In case of Planeshift look at differences between how much experience is gained by lower level and higher level characters.
It's extremely easy to eliminate powerleveling.
well if you are going to do that I hope you would never rp a character with stats greater than what the database thinks you have, that to me is the most egregious type of power-levelling around. "Look at me I'm so powerful I don't even need to train at all to wipe you out!"
Powerleveling is all about using game mechanics. If it doesn't deal with game mechanics, then it isn't powerleveling. God-modding is a seperate issue.
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Umm, what?
1. hmm pretty sure it is against the terms of service to trade characters. I could be wrong though.
2. I do not understand what this specifically refers to, I suppose regulating character levels (which do not really exist--there are only skill and stat levels.)
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1. hmm pretty sure it is against the terms of service to trade characters. I could be wrong though.
And it's extremely easy to make sure the terms aren't broken, right?
2. I do not understand what this specifically refers to, I suppose regulating character levels (which do not really exist--there are only skill and stat levels.)
Compare how much experience is gained by fighting Ulbernauts and how much earned by fighting rats. Now set a "max cap" somewhere.
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1. players should not be encouraged to break the terms of service, not to mention that lending your character to someone would likely result in that character doing stuff you would not have it do.
s. I still do not see how this would help but I am not a dev so I do not need to. The best I could think of is to average all stats/skills and use that to determine your cap. I still do not think it is a good idea though.
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Has it occured to you I've been saying why Waylander's ideas wouldn't work?
hint
Though none of this prevents powerleveling.
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I think we should as a community try hard to define our terms.
Engagement with the engine is not powerleveling, nor is it the enemy of roleplaying.
We do have some internal ideas about what to do about the situation of skills and everyone being able to master everything.
We also have ideas about how to increase role playing and how to reward it.
which will open the way to "power-rpers?"
I think in general the term poweleveler is thrown around too liberally.
In the end, i do not think we will be free from that class of people who do this:
http://www.megagames.com/news/redir.cgi?http://ftp.megagames.com/freegames/statbuilder.zip (http://www.megagames.com/news/redir.cgi?http://ftp.megagames.com/freegames/statbuilder.zip)
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In other words cripple the game to punish people who actually enjoy playing it to favor those who would rather just pretend?
Some specific rejoinders: Limit the amount of Exp per day to something that doesn't take long to get.
I suppose you would regulate that based on character levels but wait a character might have 50 in sword and armor and little else how much would be a good amount for this character? 2400 xp would be one monster for him. If I have 10 hours to play a day and stop getting xp after 5 minutes what do I do with the other 9 hours and 55 minutes? attempt to blow bubbles out of my butt?
Have increases in one skill cause decreases in another.
Hmm most skills start at 0 what would be the effect of negative skill numbers? If I train magic and my weapons go below 0 doe it mean I cannot even equip a weapon?
Limit the amount of training NPCs give out in a day.
This one might be a little more reasonable but how much is enough? If I want to put long hours into advancing my character why should I be limited to what someone who plays much less can earn? By the way are you talking game days or real days because game days are fairly quick so it would not be much of a restriction except at relatively low levels.
It's extremely easy to eliminate powerleveling.
well if you are going to do that I hope you would never rp a character with stats greater than what the database thinks you have, that to me is the most egregious type of power-levelling around. "Look at me I'm so powerful I don't even need to train at all to wipe you out!"
Way to take everything I said to the extreme Bilbous...
Regulate by time ingame. Simple. (That would be ever. Somebody who has played for 5 days worth of hours should be able to gain more Exp than somebody who has played for 1)
Granted, it's impossible at the moment, it was more an example for other games/systems.
Regulate by levels.
I've no idea where that comment came from.
...
As for trading characters, what's stopping that from happening right now?
I understand you love to see your own posts but, I imagine you came up with these solutions while typing out the flaws they solve. Please, don't be silly.
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As for trading characters, what's stopping that from happening right now?
Low game success and ability to quickly level the character yourself.
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It's not that easy for many people. They don't have the time or the patience.
It may cause powerlevelers to level multiple characters at a time but, most likely, they'll just get bored ;)
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It's not that easy for many people. They don't have the time or the patience.
But there's no limitations. If the game was successfull it would open the market. Now with such limitations the market would be much bigger.
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Draklar, be reasonable. The market will be there no matter what. This system punishes only the powerlevelers, you are assuming that the daily limit will be small for the sake of finding an error. The system is in place to stop people who powerlevel for 2 or 3 hours a day. The limits would be most reasonable.
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Lolitra RPed to own this house for over a year, yet other persons who mined a few weeks would have been easily able to outbid the sum it went for... The other thing that disturbed me about the auction was an obvious lack of IC knowledge of the Devs.
Lolitra was godmoding. Sorry.
At this point I suggest a wipe -a total inventory/money/skill wipe-, since so much changed.
That would only give the powerlevellers an even greater advantage since they'd be the ones to get their skills and money back the fastest.
Secondly, there is an obvious inbalance in the game mechanics. Again, the PLing part is far more advanced then the things that are needed for roleplaying. How do you train? Wiht pps and money. How do you get them? Through hours and hours of stupid fighting. The crafts like metallurgy and blacksmithing, or for example bookwriting, are nothing in comparison to the part of PS that involves fighting. Tons of different weapons, armors, spells. That are things a Rper does not need. I would suggest that FUTURE projects are balanced, to add something for everyone. At this point, I do not want to critize the Devs. The Devs are doing a great job. I just want to suggest something for the future.
I agree 100%, but it's all been said before. I'll go a few steps further however:
- make it easier to level up (for instance, killing a single rat might be enough to advance a low combat level)
- make it easier to max out skills (so that roleplayers can have powerful characters as well)
- make it so that you can't have exceptional ability in but a few skills at a time (it would force people to specialize their characters)
Take a minute to think about this. Really think about this. It would allow people to make the characters they want to make without countless hours of pointless grinding. It would mean that more "roleplayers" will be attracted to the game because they can roleplay the characters they want, and it will mean the "powerlevellers" won't have unreasonable advantages over everyone else.
The one thing that we cannot forget however is that the "problem" of "powerlevellers" will never be solved by making trainer harder or by making money harder to get. Whenever that happens, "powerlevellers" are given more of an advantage over the rest of us.
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I do not understand how people think restricting skills and levels will prevent power leveling. It will just mean that these players will max out their character within the new system all the quicker and move on to the next character, maxing it in perhaps a different manner. So instead of having one character maxed out in all skills and stats they will have five maxed out, maybe differently or maybe the same, depending on how much variety they like.
People who like nothing more than skill/stat advancement will advance regardless of the end result. It may even serve to encourage them as their goal will be that much easier to accomplish.
In the end there is nothing that can end powerleveling. However there are ways to make it seem more like a simple use of game mechanics and closer to rp. I want the limitations to better rp ingame, feeling that the more the rp the less the power leveling. I think of powerleveling as someone who spends hours trying to rank the highest in every skill ingame. However thats not good for rp ingame. I'm not saying that you have to rp however limitations only increases rp chances while limiting the chances for people god-modding simply because game mechanics backs up their uber character. I also think limitations would better help ps's economy problems and make things a little more sensible. I know someone probably needs an example so I'll give one of a conversation (made up) of how the game is without limits.
Blacksmith: Hello sir, you look like a strong warrior, would you like to buy one of these swords I made? They are very high quality.
Uber character: Why should I buy one of your swords? Not only am I a master swordsman but I'm a master sword maker.
Miner: Your going to need some ore aren't you? How about you buy some of mine? I just mined it myself.
Uber character: I'm a master miner too. I don't need your ore when I can mine my own.
Herbalist: A warrior like you must need potions, perhaps I can make some for you?
Uber character: Please, I can make my own potions. Its so simple.
And so on and so on....In the end Uber character can master every aspect of the game. Firstly is it truely realistic for someone to be able to learn and master every trade? I mean people should always be able to master something but not everything. My idea was that instead of mastering everything you could have a max of like three things you could rank to max. Of course then everyone wants to be able to learn other things. Well it would still be possible but you couldn't master them. So for example lets say uber character instead was just a warrior-mage-miner. He could still make weapons but he would only be able to make low quality swords, if good enough maybe even shiny swords. However he wouldn't have the skill (nor would he ever) to make high quality swords or the uber blades. Maybe he can make potions but he wouldn't be able to make greater potions of healing, etc.
Secondly this system helps everyone make money without having to try and learn every trade. Since uber warrior can't make an uber sword he will need to buy one. Since uber blacksmith can make an uber sword, just not wield it because he isn't strong enough, he will need to sell his sword. Uber warrior meets uber blacksmith and everyone is happy. You could replace that same example with many different "jobs" we are/will be able to preform. Uber warrior will be able to make money selling skins, claws, etc off of the many monsters only he can take down. In the end people will make money and still get what they need to play through other players instead of feeling the need to level every skill and rely on only themselves.
Lastly this would much better rp. Who wants to rp with uber character who can do anything? I much rather rp with uber warrior who still relys on other characters to help him because he can't do it all. Its very unreaslic when someone powerlevels every stat and then because game mechanics supports it they rp the same thing. However I wouldn't mind if game mechanics supported it as long as its immpossible to level every stat. I much prefer the idea of seeing uber warriors walk around instead of uber characters. Plus this will at least make others more tempted to not always be uber warrior or uber mage because they won't be able to do every single thing to its max.
Yes in the end people will make alternate characters to level, uber warrior will just make an uber blacksmith alt to give him uber swords, etc etc. However while I know there are people who will just make an endless sea of alts I also doubt that many will be tempted to do so. In the end someone's going to think, "Why bother making 6 characters for this game when there is that other MMORPG that I can make just one character, powerlevel, and have all my stats without the work of switching?" Yes not everyone's going to think that but either way this plan can only really help the game, its not hurting it because the problems with it are only things that can happen regardless.
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eventually we will change these things and long threads will arrive to tell us how wrong we were to do what you asked \\o//
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Personally, I see nothing wrong with the system as it is, as far as, PP's and money to rank up.
The easiest solution would be to separate combat and non-combat experience, for starters.
Then, limit the total ranks a player can have in Jobs. This way, as a player comes closer to mastering one field of expertise, the other areas have less growth potential. So, no player could master EVERY job.
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eventually we will change these things and long threads will arrive to tell us how wrong we were to do what you asked \\o//
Yeah I know....thats what makes me afraid when I post something, the fear that later on many will hate me and I'll have to cover my face with a bag so I won't be attacked :sweatdrop:
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thing is they wont blame you
who will they blame?
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I see bot one problem with your idea durza. (tho i like the idea)
A Mage would want to learn all the 6 ways of magic and master them, also would want to master anti magic to have defense against other mages. (makes 7 skills)
A warrior would want to master Sword and armor, there are 3 kinds of armor and a really good warrior would know how to use all 3 kinds to it's best (makes 4 skills)
A crafter would want to learn how to craft different things, for example they start with crafting knifes and daggers, become masters in that, but then want to craft axes and swords and shields (and armor, when it will be available) too and a really good blacksmith would want to master those areas too (makes 4 (with armor 5) skills to master) - tho mining is also some kind of craft, unsure if to add it here or to count it as an extra field...
You see that it would need a maximum of 7 skills to be able to master, now here comes mister uber character and says: I master crystal way, to shoot arrows of maximum power and heal myself, what do i need potions then? I also master all 3 armor kinds. Wait, I need money, so I master metallurgy and Mining too and oh well, i want to cause maximum damage to my opponents, so i also master the art of axe handling.
there we go, he has picked up 7 fields of interest to master and still is mister uber char. mister uber char thinks mastering crystal way is not needed, since potions are so cheap and learning magic is so expensive and time consuming, he also decides that he doesn't need light armor to be mastered since he wants to be mister uber char and would use chain and plate mail all the time, he then can learn and master blacksmith and sword making and won't have a need for crafters anymore.
I like the idea somehow, but making restrictions of how many skills you can master will cause problems too.
I also stated before that i dislike the idea of making restrictions to classes, so that would also not help much, but how about this idea?
Mister uber char got the money, the pp's and the time to master ALL skills available, but when he has mastered - lets say - armor and weapon and then learns crafting, he will forget some tricks he has learned, learning crafting takes a long time, so if mister uber char masters this he probably has forgotten some of the tricks of handling his weapon as best (means with time the skill will lower)
imho thats realistic and makes sense. because:
I learn a language, become very good at it, but then don't use it for ages, i will most probably forget a lot of vocabulary, also some grammar and the pronounciation of the words, due to the lack of using the language. Same goes for everything else.
A swordsman who hasn't used the swords for some time will forget some of the things he was able to do before.
A magican who doesn't use it's magic for some time maybe remembers the wording for the spell, but may forget about some other things that made the spell so effective.
A miner who hasn't mined for ages may forget about how to throw the pick into the ground to get the best resultat (best/most ores)
A sportsman who used to run all around yliakum, but then does not even walk alot for some time (like during learning crafting), his muscles become weaker, he will become slower and so far.
so the idea behind this is: be lazy and you will get fat and rusty :)
a concept for that could be like: use your $SKILL less than X times in $TIME and you will drop Y levels of the skill.
I know, some people will now throw phrases at me and call me names, since training already is hard and costs a lot of money, but look at it from a different angle, see it from the realistic point: it's very realistic to forget things you once have learned. period.
greetings, Cebot :)
Edit: They will always blame you, xillix :P/me sneaks away and whistles innocently
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Good thread... 5 pages and minimal flames, I'm impressed.
Engagement with the engine is not powerleveling, nor is it the enemy of roleplaying.
<snip>
I think in general the term poweleveler is thrown around too liberally.
Amen. As is the term "Avid RPer". Although I seem to find plenty of people ingame who like a nice balance of playing the game (mechanics) and RP, and who can RP the same character they are actually playing. I think these forums must have a higher percentage of posters from either end of the spectrum, the ones who favor balance don't post as much?
Personally, I find either end boring. As others have pointed out before, RP while ignoring mechanics is just a 3D chatroom, while leveling and acquiring loot & tria quickly turns into Diablo... What makes PS fun is that there IS a mix.
But since this thread has brought up just about every aspect of the game, and since this IS the complaint department:
I think the addition of one teensy weensy litlle map (yes, I know there is no such thing..., but I'm complaining) would actually address many of the points in this thread and others. Namely, open up at least a small section of the Stone Labyrinth. It is just so essential to the game. Settings, NPCs, Quests, you-name-it, all refer to it constantly, yet it doesn't exist. (Oops, probably should have been in the inconsistancies thread...) And I can't be the only one who's thought this, because I routinely run into new players wandering around the BD fortress looking for, guess what, the actual doors and a way into the labyrinth.
Besides opening new territory for hunting and fighting (pleasing the more action oriented), it would provide major hooks to the settings for RPers. And since combat is by far the most effective method in the game so far for leveling, it would help the balance by combing the two. Levelers could do their thing, playing the mechanics without being seen as as OOC. The arena could then become what it is supposed to be, a practice area, while the monsters and villains in the labyrinth could be more (as in more kinds, bigger, meaner, etc.) Right now, training as a fighter is kind of weird from an RP sense because as a career there's nothing ingame that makes sense.
Well, I'm off to work at the arena, honey, gotta go kill a few hundred gladiators and rogues.
Ok, dear, <smooch> have fun, and could you kill a few trepors too? I need some wiggly feelers to decorate the den.
Hmmm, hardly the mighty warrior, but RPing your character's whole life by sitting around the tavern talking about it doesn't cut it either.
I'm sure this falls into the its-coming-in-time category, but I'm not asking for the whole labyrinth with 8 levels and all, but at least think about a small section. It really would tie a lot of things together.
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thing is they wont blame you
who will they blame?
True...I'll just be the dumb guy with the idea, you'll be the person getting yelled at for taking me seriously ;D
@Cebot I do like the idea. Its kinda like a skill decay.....
After a while you start to lose levels in a certain area because of training in other areas and for the fact that it makes sense that if you don't keep practicing you will forget. It was actually brought up in the wish list before I believe. Of course there would have to be a maximum amount of the levels that you could lose else people would be pissed if they had level 80 sword, didn't play for a month, then got level 17.....
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well, think the offline time should not be taken into account. only the time you really spend ingame doing other things than using the skill you have learned
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I am convinced the best way to prevent know-it-alls is just to have too many available skills to master them all. The current situation is the way it is becausethere are too few currently implemented and characters have been allowed to continue to exist for too long, through too many changes to the system. I would be very interested to see how long it would take to have even 50 completely maxed characters from a full wipe. I am certain there are some players who play 10hrs+ per day, I was once on for nearly that much myself for several months. These are the players who are bound to max out the fastest and they will always be around. It took me a couple months at the time to max out when there was a much reduced skill set. I did it mostly independently too as I have never been part of a guild and always felt the player prices amounted to extortion. It would seem to me that it would be far better for the role players if there were to be a full wipe with every new release as they would then have more justification for not having stats to match their chosen role. Certainly it would make it harder to test out the higher level functionality but the die-hards would likely still get up there before the next wipe.
I do understand though that this is an unpopular opinion and not likely to happen. There is just too much suspect money and skills around for my liking.
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In the end there is nothing that can end powerleveling.
Not true. Get rid of levelling all together.:)
A Mage would want to learn all the 6 ways of magic and master them
Not necessarily.
there are 3 kinds of armor and a really good warrior would know how to use all 3 kinds
Not necessarily.
A crafter would want to learn how to craft different things, for example they start with crafting knifes and daggers, become masters in that, but then want to craft axes and swords and shields (and armor, when it will be available) too and a really good blacksmith would want to master those areas too
Sure they'd want to, but would they be able to? To be realistic, they would probably become really good at only one thing. There are plenty of craftsmen in real life like that - thus the phrase "jack of all trades, master of none".
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I am convinced the best way to prevent know-it-alls is just to have too many available skills to master them all.
I disagree. The more the skills the more I see a big botting problem. Take a MMORPG I know called silkroad. There are tons of skills, each that have 80 levels. Plus the characters actually can level up to 80 (so you have to level yourself and your many skills). The game has millions of players(no rp) but of those players half of them are bots. Another large percentage are players who take other characters and level them up for players(by botting). The game had such a bad botting problem that it had to shut down the server (periodically) to try to eliminate botters. Right now they still have a lot of them and I rather not give a botting problem to ps as well :P
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I played Silk Road, it was endlessly boring. I didn't get into the trader/thief/hunter sub-game much but I do not agree it had a lot of skills. If I recall correctly it had three weapon type skills and four magic type skills, all with 6-8 sub-skills and a limited number of possible level-ups. You could not max out all your skills, only a selection, not only major skills but the sub-skills. If you only leveled one magic and one weapon you could max out their sub-skills but not much else. Perhaps it changed since I got tired of it. I foiund it to be quite limited, in fact.
In PS there are slated to be many more skills than that with many more levels, also the progression system is much different as you actually have to use a skill to level it.
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I am convinced the best way to prevent know-it-alls is just to have too many available skills to master them all.
I disagree. The more the skills the more I see a big botting problem. Take a MMORPG I know called silkroad. There are tons of skills, each that have 80 levels. Plus the characters actually can level up to 80 (so you have to level yourself and your many skills). The game has millions of players(no rp) but of those players half of them are bots. Another large percentage are players who take other characters and level them up for players(by botting). The game had such a bad botting problem that it had to shut down the server (periodically) to try to eliminate botters. Right now they still have a lot of them and I rather not give a botting problem to ps as well :P
That surprises me. There used to be a crowd here that would always sing praises for that game. (Especially Moogie and Zayek/Keyaz/Demarthl/Pinache).
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The Art and Interface are lovely. Its just a rather bland game to play. I'm my own opinion of course.
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Yeah I personally don't like it. The actual looks of everything are great, like the art work etc. Also the pvp system isn't bad. However usually I play to rp and even if I tried things are so unrealistic that its pointless. I play it occasionally but only when I feel like grinding for no good reason.
I played Silk Road, it was endlessly boring. I didn't get into the trader/thief/hunter sub-game much but I do not agree it had a lot of skills. If I recall correctly it had three weapon type skills and four magic type skills, all with 6-8 sub-skills and a limited number of possible level-ups. You could not max out all your skills, only a selection, not only major skills but the sub-skills. If you only leveled one magic and one weapon you could max out their sub-skills but not much else. Perhaps it changed since I got tired of it. I foiund it to be quite limited, in fact.
There are 3 weapons and 4 magics but each weapon has about 15-20 skills and each magic the same. You can level each and every single thing you just have to have the appropriate character level and skill points. In the end that makes for a large amount of skills to master (it just takes a long time for one to notice because you have to get to such high levels). While the skills are intresting and flashy in the end things become boring because your not putting them to any true use but killing the countless npcs to get to higher levels and get flashy weapons. The only actual thing I did like was the thief-hunter-trader thing (which really is the main point of the game now). The fact that they tried to model conflict was intresting. The idea behind it was that the Silk Road historically was a place where traders tried to move valubale goods, body guards(hunters) would protect them, thieves would steal from these traders, and more hunters would kill thieves for bounties. Putting that concpet to rp would have made an intresting game but instead by enabling the factors they did and making it all about the grind it really becomes unintresting.
Edit:
Oh I also forgot that each skill that the weapons and magics had could also be leveled. Then when you got that starting skill to its max level and your character to a certain level you could obtain an entirely different skill which basically was the same skill as before only more advanced........which only helps to show how much grinding one would have to do to master that game.
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I’ve been thinking about the original topic of this thread. Of course I have my opinions about both sides of the coin but they’re just that, my opinion. I’ve been trying to figure out a way to help come up with an in game solution that couldn’t be broken by the so-called ‘power levelers’ but I cant seem to find one...
For the here and now we could maybe start a thread where once a week (real time) characters are nominated for good role-playing. Simply add the character name you thought was well played to the thread (maybe even add a copy of your PC log showing an example of what you liked). Those PC’s that get X amount of votes get something like PP, tria, maybe some type of badge added to the character’s profile. There would have to be rules of course, like the obvious, you can’t nominate your own PC. Maybe also have a rule where you can’t vote for members of the same guild or guilds that you belong to <(this would be hard to monitor though). Maybe somebody better at this than me could expand on it and make it work somehow. I’m thinking it isn’t for Dev’s to work on, it’s to help in-game role-playing here and now. Give an incentive to help coax players into role-play.
Ok, Dev’s may need to add any bonuses to the character (PP, tria, etc.). :P
Anyway, the forum nomination thread thing is just a thought...
For an actual in-game wish list kind of thing I was thinking something like this could maybe be added to the character profile view someplace. Maybe have a button somebody could click if they like the way the character is role-played. But figuring out a way this couldn’t be broken is almost impossible.
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It's possible to powerlevel a char to max stats and almost maxed weapon skill within two weeks, not to forget armor and magic - and you will still find the time to roleplay this char most of the time. Think it's impossible to get a char up in skills and stats that fast and still rp all the time? Well, I have done it, I had the time to PL him, I had the time to make up a RP story for him, to give him a history that explains why he is doing what he is doing and I had time to do quests with him too, at the same time I had the time to sometimes even play with Cebot. So you see, it is possible to train and rp, just remember that you do not need 200k to begin with, remember that you do not have to boringly stay in front of a gladiator to fight it, remember that they are gladiators and use tactics too, so think about tactics you could use to beat em when you are too weak.
Of course, how realistic is it that everyone is a super powerful magician-warrior with no weaknesses? It makes little sense ICly.
When playing PS (I usually play a more rp intensive game), I try (rather, tried) to roleplay my stats. As such, I was a relatively competent warrior, but nothing special, who had learned a few tricks in the various ways (basic spells) in order to suppliment his fighting. Mercenary, too.
Playing such is pointless when you have so many people with maxed stats roleplaying their stats--in any given situation, the person who spends little time powerleveling in comparison to roleplay will be made obsolete by the people who keep their skills maxed at all times. Obviously, they're more skilled then someone else, but it makes roleplay seem pointless, because there is little spot for those who do not become the l337-uber warrior mage smith that everyone else has become.
I also tried another mmorpg. it is like choosing a class, being totally restricted to that class until you have killed enough mobs to be lvl 10, then you can choose between 2 subclasses (archer: hunter / marksman) quests are boring as there is no real interaction with the npc, you just click on the npc with the BIG FAT ! above the head. and the best, I got told that most mmorpg's are like that. I know a lot have tried the same game and some have returned to PS, but why did they return? ps is soooo crappy according to what so many people say, yet the people come back after playing a finished comercial game for some time - a wild guess: most mmorpg's do not deserve the RP in the name and thats what people were missing? *shrugs* Welcome back everyone, btw :)
It saddens me tho that some of my earlier PS friends have left. but who knows, hopefully they will come back one day too.
Things like that are meant to keep powerleveling and reality defying uber l337 warrior mage smiths from existing. A more open system would be nice in PS, where you can't master one skill except at the expense of others (for instance, if you spent all your time training in heavy armor, after a certain point your fighting in medium and light armor would be effected, because of habits that are good in heavy armor that aren't good in light or medium armor). A balance would have to be reached, of course (because there are feasible medium-heavy and light-medium armor mixes that make rp sense, such as chainmail armor but leather armor on the legs.). The same could be true for magic classes, weapons (related ones wouldn't suffer as much penalty, such as swords and daggers, but there are few swords you use like a battleaxe, polearm, or mace), and skills in general.
In the end there is nothing that can end powerleveling.
If you make it harder to powerlevel then to roleplay, people will roleplay more. However, few see any reason to without a punishment for not doing so or a reward for doing so.
A Mage would want to learn all the 6 ways of magic and master them
And they likely could, to a point--but realistically no mage that did equally well in all spell schools would be as good as one who specialized in one, simply because the one who is specializing would be able to put time into his or her specialty at the detriment of his other magical skills (particularly opposing ways), because of habit building and whatnot. It's the same in real life, with doctors: generalists are never as good as specialists in the specialist's field, but might be able to diagnose or pass along a patient to the appropriate specialist in a much better way.
there are 3 kinds of armor and a really good warrior would know how to use all 3 kinds
A really good warrior would know how to use all 3 kinds to a point, but specialization comes into play here: if one builds up the responses one has to make in heavy armor (blocking, using weight to their advantage, etc.), they would build bad habits for light armor (which relies much more on the person's ability to dodge and offers minimal protection, but is light and inexpensive).
A crafter would want to learn how to craft different things, for example they start with crafting knifes and daggers, become masters in that, but then want to craft axes and swords and shields (and armor, when it will be available) too and a really good blacksmith would want to master those areas too
Specialists > jack of all trades. However, a jack of all trades will be of more use to an organization that needs a variety of weapons that don't necessarily need to be top quality.
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I’ve been thinking about the original topic of this thread. Of course I have my opinions about both sides of the coin but they’re just that, my opinion. I’ve been trying to figure out a way to help come up with an in game solution that couldn’t be broken by the so-called ‘power levelers’ but I cant seem to find one...
Not allowing people to become masters of all trades would be a good first step to keeping powerleveling from being exceptionally effective (as it means that they will have to make choices, decisions, etc.).
For the here and now we could maybe start a thread where once a week (real time) characters are nominated for good role-playing. Simply add the character name you thought was well played to the thread (maybe even add a copy of your PC log showing an example of what you liked). Those PC’s that get X amount of votes get something like PP, tria, maybe some type of badge added to the character’s profile. There would have to be rules of course, like the obvious, you can’t nominate your own PC. Maybe also have a rule where you can’t vote for members of the same guild or guilds that you belong to <(this would be hard to monitor though). Maybe somebody better at this than me could expand on it and make it work somehow. I’m thinking it isn’t for Dev’s to work on, it’s to help in-game role-playing here and now. Give an incentive to help coax players into role-play.
Ok, Dev’s may need to add any bonuses to the character (PP, tria, etc.). :P
(I've mentioned this before, but I'm going to shamelessly do it again)
Or we could have the GMs give bonuses for good rp outside of GM events (perhaps a bonus that gives xp towards progression points, perhaps trias (although that'd seem stranger OOCly, but as progression points are already not IC knowledge..) as the IG or OOC clock ticks) for rp. And of course, have an official policy that requires that players do not complain about the GM team in public as far as RPing bonuses, and if favoritism is suspected, to report it in a special form only viewable by the dev team.
Oh, and ask the GMs to watch for those without bonuses before giving more to those who are already getting them, of course. And if someone is just mindlessly mining away or mindlessly killing monsters, have the game system suspend it (making the assumption that they are already getting xp from the monsters/gold and don't need an extra bonus).
Pros: More people will roleplay and less will power level, especially if the system goes on--even more so if it becomes a better source of xp to keep IC and roleplay with others then mindlessly kill things. The main "powerleveling" trend would go away, instead favoring those who either want to make money (from drops or from gold) or level up in a skill. You would still be getting the practice necessary for leveling, of course, but progression points would build up without the need to go fight and kill lots and lots of things.
Cons: There will be numerous initial complaints about GM favoritism and how the dev team are going to mess up again (of course, this is Planeshift, what else do you expect :P). Could theoretically be exploited by powerlevelers, but only if they were good rpers (The main idea is to balance it so that a -good- rper gets almost as much progression points xp as a powerleveler would, but has more fun). Monster xp would have to be dropped a bit (or a lot) in order to keep that from being a viable means or creating a huge excess of PP, which could cause a huge money sink and really mess up the economy. It doesn't fix the power-moneymaking problem (as just having trias appear in your inventory would be OOC). One more duty for the GM team.
Solutions to some of the cons: Say that the GM team will endeavor to keep it fair, and also say that it isn't open for discussion (this creates the con of deleting a lot of forum topics). Set up very clear levels of roleplay and explain them to the GM team and the players. Set up a way to give someone roleplay kudos (forum board simply for congratulating other players on their roleplay), which could serve as a way to keep track of people who should be watched because of good roleplay (esp. if they have a low rating in the first place). There would be a lot of complaints about the xp drop in monsters and how you can't level as fast, make it clear that it's a necessary transition period. Another solution for money obviously would have to be found (weekly gladiatorial competitions, poetry contests, and the like? Mining would remain an option, of course, as would hunting monsters--it just wouldn't be great for xp.). The GM team could likely adjust, and new members could be added if necessary.
The best time for such a system to be implemented would be right after a wipe, of course, so that everyone is starting on an even footing in regards to experience, so that complaints of "now it's hard" wouldn't be as common--it would be hard for everyone, not just players who hadn't already maxed their stats and accumulated huge amounts of PP.
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A Mage would want to learn all the 6 ways of magic and master them
And they likely could, to a point--but realistically no mage that did equally well in all spell schools would be as good as one who specialized in one, simply because the one who is specializing would be able to put time into his or her specialty at the detriment of his other magical skills (particularly opposing ways), because of habit building and whatnot. It's the same in real life, with doctors: generalists are never as good as specialists in the specialist's field, but might be able to diagnose or pass along a patient to the appropriate specialist in a much better way.
A mage that want to learn all magic ways is extreme expensive, he have to learn some other skills for pay the costs of training.
I've seen not one character to have all skills at magic way mastered!
I've seen not one person who have mastered all crafting skills. I saw some who train for mastering sword making, and i know one who train for mastering daggers.
And who mastered all weapon and armor skills, do they can fight the uber Ulbernauts? No, they did not, they have to wait if there are other trainers comming and train higher.
For example:
I've crystal way 70 and each training costs about 30.000 trias, i heared the crystal way can be trained beyond skill 100. Then i've to train red, azure...
[I think this needs one or two years for me, but what is in one year? Skill 200, Skill 300?]
And for real life: a blacksmith must make hundred thousands of swords to be mastered. but is he mastered? did he make never mistakes ever? No, he is the best smith in swords but he also have to learn. "A rolling stone gathers no moss."
I think the balancing in game is perfect and the balancing of powerlevelers and roleplayers is perfect.
The people who do only powerleveling, they are borred in short time and you do not see them a long time online and you see them never again.
I started playing PlaneShift and the first i've read the players guide to fit the best character to me, then i did is some powerleveling for training some magic ways. But i like roleplaying games and read the storys of Talad and Laanx...
Do not force the powerleveler to do roleplay or do you think they are the best roleplayers? They must make their steps in roleplay to see if they like that or not.
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It's called "specialization".
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A mage that want to learn all magic ways is extreme expensive, he have to learn some other skills for pay the costs of training.
I've seen not one character to have all skills at magic way mastered!
I've seen not one person who have mastered all crafting skills. I saw some who train for mastering sword making, and i know one who train for mastering daggers.
And who mastered all weapon and armor skills, do they can fight the uber Ulbernauts? No, they did not, they have to wait if there are other trainers comming and train higher.
For example:
I've crystal way 70 and each training costs about 30.000 trias, i heared the crystal way can be trained beyond skill 100. Then i've to train red, azure...
[I think this needs one or two years for me, but what is in one year? Skill 200, Skill 300?]
And for real life: a blacksmith must make hundred thousands of swords to be mastered. but is he mastered? did he make never mistakes ever? No, he is the best smith in swords but he also have to learn. "A rolling stone gathers no moss."
The problem is not that one tries to master blacksmithing (as in reach the highest rank). It is that they also try to reach the highest rank in all weapons, armors, and magics. It doesn't matter whether or not they have reached it yet its the fact they will keep trying to powerlevel every stat as high as they can. One should be able to practice all things ingame but should someone be able to be maxed on every stats and half the weapon skills? One needs to only "master" a few things. Whether you mastered blacksmithing, weapons, and magics is not the point. The point is that too many attempt to do it and then rp the same.
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A mage that want to learn all magic ways is extreme expensive, he have to learn some other skills for pay the costs of training.
I've seen not one character to have all skills at magic way mastered!
I've seen not one person who have mastered all crafting skills. I saw some who train for mastering sword making, and i know one who train for mastering daggers.
And who mastered all weapon and armor skills, do they can fight the uber Ulbernauts? No, they did not, they have to wait if there are other trainers comming and train higher.
For example:
I've crystal way 70 and each training costs about 30.000 trias, i heared the crystal way can be trained beyond skill 100. Then i've to train red, azure...
[I think this needs one or two years for me, but what is in one year? Skill 200, Skill 300?]
And for real life: a blacksmith must make hundred thousands of swords to be mastered. but is he mastered? did he make never mistakes ever? No, he is the best smith in swords but he also have to learn. "A rolling stone gathers no moss."
The problem is not that one tries to master blacksmithing (as in reach the highest rank). It is that they also try to reach the highest rank in all weapons, armors, and magics. It doesn't matter whether or not they have reached it yet its the fact they will keep trying to powerlevel every stat as high as they can. One should be able to practice all things ingame but should someone be able to be maxed on every stats and half the weapon skills? One needs to only "master" a few things. Whether you mastered blacksmithing, weapons, and magics is not the point. The point is that too many attempt to do it and then rp the same.
By extension: which is unrealistic (if one does not practice their skills, esp. if they're at a high skill level, one will begin to fall back rapidly--although gaining it back is much faster, people grow rusty over time), and makes roleplay often seem both repetitive and and makes those of us who roleplay characters (and have the skills to back it up) who do specialize and don't try to become "teh uber l337 warrior-mage-smith" seem pushed to the side in favor of a person who, frankly, can do anything the game mechanics provide for, and back up rp stats wise for anything they want to do (spells, amazing feats of strength, and whatnot).
I'm fine with warrior-mage-smiths. I'm not fine with them being as good as a focused warrior, a focused mage, and a focused smith, because that's unrealistic. One cannot be the jack of all trades, and the master of all trades.
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well,
I'm not the big Roleplayer, sorry ... I started roleplaying with Planeshift and I'm still learning.
But ... after reading this complete thread ... something comes right out of my head.
Tolol's story:
I decided to become a crafter ... I wanted to be the one who the weapon crafters would like to meet to buy their needed "ingredients"
That was the goal ....
To reach it I had to kill thousends of rats - trained "knives and daggers" and "light armor" - killed thousands of Rogues - trained "knives and daggers" and "light armor" - killed the Brigand a thousand times - trained "knives and daggers" and "light armor" ........ (not to forget all the Trepors and Tefusang ...)
I stopped fighting, when I reached Lvl 50 on "knives and daggers" and "light armor", because I had PP and money enough to reach my crafter goal ....
What for, you will ask ?
To get the PP for my mining - metallurgy - blacksmith ......
your turn now .... am I a powerleveller ?
By the way ... last week I found myself on the way to the Brigand ... I was out of PP
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well,
I'm not the big Roleplayer, sorry ... I started roleplaying with Planeshift and I'm still learning.
But ... after reading this complete thread ... something comes right out of my head.
Tolol's story:
I decided to become a crafter ... I wanted to be the one who the weapon crafters would like to meet to buy their needed "ingredients"
That was the goal ....
To reach it I had to kill thousends of rats - trained "knives and daggers" and "light armor" - killed thousands of Rogues - trained "knives and daggers" and "light armor" - killed the Brigand a thousand times - trained "knives and daggers" and "light armor" ........ (not to forget all the Trepors and Tefusang ...)
I stopped fighting, when I reached Lvl 50 on "knives and daggers" and "light armor", because I had PP and money enough to reach my crafter goal ....
What for, you will ask ?
To get the PP for my mining - metallurgy - blacksmith ......
your turn now .... am I a powerleveller ?
By the way ... last week I found myself on the way to the Brigand ... I was out of PP
That actually refelcts more the current problem with game mechanics than it does with this argument. As soon as the leveling system is fixed in terms of pp you will be able to gain equal experience from fighting as you would from crafting, mining, etc. Then you wouldn't need the weapon stats to be a crafter.
Because of the leveling system problems I couldn't argue with your choice of first gaining the stats so you could actually become what you plan to rp (crafter). My only problem would have been if you not only decided to be a crafter but decided to be an extremely strong warrior and a list of serveral other things...
In the end think about it this way. Is it unrealisitc for you to learn how to kill monsters first and gain some skill using weapons and armors? Of course not. Is it impossible for you to become a crafter after gaining skills with weaponry? No. However would it be needed to max those weapon skills, or come close to maxing them, to kill monsters in order to gain pp for training? Once again no. You can just as easily gain pp on a lower level of weapon skill and armor skill. Do you have to rp your high level skills in weponry just because you have them? Again no, infact you shouldn't. If you only gained them for the OOC fact that we can't gain enough experience by doing anything other than killing monsters then the skills themselves are OOC. If it was a character choice to first learn how to fight then go for his/her goals then its not OOC yet I'd say you should limit yourself to the amount of levels you can gain. In other words don't make your character become a warrior who can kill trepors in a second just because you want to be able to gain the pp for training quick because its OOC.
Fact is all those weapon skills could easily be proven to be OOC since you got them as a player, not because your character wanted to learn to fight. If he/her wanted to learn to fight but his/her ultimate goal was crafting then I'd expect the character to get to a decent rank but not a high one. If you as a player gets them to a high rank for the sake of easier training its okay but when rping you'd have to note this ranks as OOC for it was player done.
For an example I have a character who I'm rping to have little skill when using weapons. Yet at the begining stages its easier to train with weapons. Will I decide however to rp my character having high weapon skills just because it will make it easier both ways? No, that takes away my characters flaw/weakness. Instead I may get him the needed weapon skills to make training easier but these skills will be regarded OOCly for me. I will never rp my character to have them. At the same time once my character doesn't need the weapon skills I won't use them period for the fact that they were only there to make things easier for me as a player.
I'm not saying this is the way to do things but I think it sensible if you can understand what I'm trying to say ;D
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You are not a power leveler. You are the victim of a system that forces power leveling outside of your chosen character to do much of anything with the game.
Now, I am not against RP-powerleveling in any way. If you like doing it, be my guest. I would likely PL some of the skills myself if I did not find the current training system so horrid (mostly due to the anti-RP PP, the insanely un-RP-able cost of training, and the bloodthirsty character type you are forced to play). Indeed, in other games where leveling was more realistic and fun, I very much enjoyed seeing my character grow stronger and more skilled. An RP-leveler plays the character type who strives to be better, and works hard at it. As said, I would do this.
I am against non-RP-PLing, however. I define non-RP-power levelers as different than Rp-levelers. Or perhaps I would call them Power-Maxers, who are only interested in maxing out all skills as fast as they can for the reason of maxing those things, doing every last thing in the game, and amassing fortunes just to see their name as the top of a list.
It is making a system that supports one, but not the other that is the hat trick. The training system in place can not do that.
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by reading your replies another thing comes to my mind ...
I was once in the mine ... going for iron
and one of those "funny people" brought a trepor to the mine ...
most of my fellow miners ran in fear ...
but my (OOC) killing skills made me put on my armor ... take my daggers and made the trepor ...
I didn't even try to roleplay this ... and I left the mine ...
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since there is no list to look on, I doubt the true power levelers would stick around for long. and it is hard to get all your stats up there. Its boring...which actually encourages rp, if from nothing other than being unable to do anything else. As for having no one in real life who could master so many skills, the reason for that is 1. there is no cap (what is maxed in real life? theres a saying that perfect doesnt exist, but I doubt you would want this implemented.), and 2. We dont have enough time. We could probably become elite in everything...if we could live forever.
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heres my two cents...
I like playing planeshift...
Planeshift made a system in which you can train and level...
I like to role play my character... its a very immersive experiance and makes things exciting to see 'what will happen next?'
I don't understand why people need to divide playing the game, and role playing... The game encourages both...
Role play has always been encouraged but there are also quests that demand that you are strong... (because if you're not its almost impossible)
I role play, but when none of my friends are on, and when nothing is going on, I go and train for as long as I feel fit.
Conclusion: People who Only role play are missing out on Planeshift's dev designed game play... people who only play the game, are missing out on a immersive experiance that really is frosting on the cake.
Why not just do a little of both?
edit:
by reading your replies another thing comes to my mind ...
I was once in the mine ... going for iron
and one of those "funny people" brought a trepor to the mine ...
most of my fellow miners ran in fear ...
but my (OOC) killing skills made me put on my armor ... take my daggers and made the trepor ...
I didn't even try to roleplay this ... and I left the mine ...
I see nothing wrong with this.