PlaneShift
Gameplay => In-Game Roleplay Events => Topic started by: Cairn on July 22, 2012, 09:11:50 pm
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I never mean to offend or start fights, so sorry in advance to the people who didn't like this plot or don't like it.
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Just a few remarks:
a) This kind of plots was the reason why Illysia left once. Too blatant. Too violent. Too forceful to be ignored by people who don't like it too much...
Understandably. Unfortunately, these types of plots will always be a staple within PlaneShift. Due to the settings, the nature of the Religions and their backstory, and also due to the wants and tendencies of our players, PlaneShift will never be a Utopia. Of course, my aim isn't to offend Illysia. Nor is to force her to leave. In fact, it's never to force anyone to leave. They can, and always will, have the choice to simply ignore it if they choose. Now, I know it's hard to ignore plots like these, and that certainly makes you ticked that you can't, if your a player that desires only a Utopia to come too. That being said, I'm perfectly willing to call off this entire RP and disregard it ever happening :) those who are offended need only say so - I try to be an obliging fellow.
b) This kind of plot even enforces GMs to get involved as guards, although GMs are meant to stay out of roleplays as much as possible, to avoid preference among players.
There's a certain irony to this one. The guards, placed by the developers/settings team, are meant to corral RPs like this. However, since they are NPCs, they literally do nothing. A wise 'villain' RPer can simply commit crimes out of sight of the guards, to fulfill settings purposes, and then because a GM is "not allowed to get involved", the crime goes unpunished. Equally ironic is the Octarchial decree that the citizens of Hydlaa are not allowed to perform vigilante style justice, in essence. That certainly corrals what someone can and cannot do.
a.) The GM team runs several events. These events are the most public of all, even being advertise, OOCly, and OOCLy attended or invited to by many. Does the public have the chance to ignore these, perhaps not violent (although some are), but nonetheless blatant?
A: Of course. It's up to the player.
Does a player have a choice to interact in any RP, no matter how blatant, violent, dramatic, traumatic, emotional, non-emotional, Utopian, friendly, unfriendly, etc?
A: Of course. It's up to the player.
Now, all that being said, as I mentioned, I'm perfectly willing, happy, and capable of ending this RP and disregarding it ever happening. That may sadden some people who were involved, and it may make others happy who didn't want it to happen, but I'm good with it.
All things considered, the RP cliques need to be broken up. There is no RP of any kind going on between the different guilds and groups, for the most part, most if it centered around where you are placed and will remain so.
GM involvement is a bonus, but they don't have to if they don't want to, I'm sure Hydlaa will always produce vigilante justice anyways, despite that being improper.
Player involvement that I saw so far was incredible. At least 30 or so players that may not have ever interacted with each other chose to do so and got that chance. I saw players I didn't even know existed.
of course, pros and cons - your guy's call.
I'll always cater :)
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Please do not stop this RP, or any other RP (that abides by PS rules etc.)!! Bravo, Cairn, for starting this one and especially for posting about it on the forum, so that people who lurk here (like me) know that when they get in game, there is a storyline they can jump into should they so desire.
I get extremely sad by posts like LigH's, who I am sure did not intend to put a damper on an interesting RP, but which have the potential to derail a group effort which many are enjoying. Really the only thing to do when one of us doesn't like a particular storyline is to start our own story with a narrative that appeals and engages.
I won't say what plots I like or don't like, but I will say that any plot at all is a good thing, especially now. And I beseech all of us forum creatures to pass over RP threads that don't appeal to us, so that we don't inadvertently dampen the momentum and enthusiasm that such RP generates.
Thanks again, Cairn, for building community and putting your energy and ideas into Yliakum, much appreciated even by someone not taking part in this particular RP O--)
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Pretty interesting that I got invoked even when I had resolved to just shut up and get in a corner this time, but I won't say that LigH is wrong... he isn't by the way. But I will say that my solution is going to be switching cities. Yes it is more desolate in the other cities but oh well, I really can't deal with this kind of plot. I'm afraid it comes off as mindless mass killing rather than a meaningful story but I don't know about this particular plot since I am largely staying out of it. (That's the simplest way to prevent anymore upheaval and the bitter backbitting and whatnot that went down in the past.) However, I make one request. Please no more killing children. You can make the point that the character is a complete monster without going there. I would feel much better if we could at least draw the line there as a community. Not everything that happens in RL needs to be duplicated.
I want to go to Amdeneir, since it is too nice a city to be as desolate as it is. I'm not sure if it has the cooking tools I need, but if it does, I can opt to only head into hydlaa for OOC training and OOC gathering of herbs. If anyone that wishes to avoid the murders wishes to join me there, feel free to start hanging out there. With the Pterosaur, it is easy to get from there to the other cities so I think that will be a good fit for me. I don't spend much time questing or hunting so it's not a great loss for me. However, I have enough tragedy to keep me occupied in RL, I'm not going to entertain myself with it in addition to that.
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I have to agree with Pierre. It makes me sad to see a post where someone says "RPs like this are why So-and-So left...." Not to sound callous, but why should the THIRTY players who have been actively involved in this RP line have that taken away from them because ONE person doesn't like RPs of that nature? I can appreciate that Illysia is an incredibly skilled player. She has wonderful ideas, a great deal of planning and organization in running events and has been a great asset to the game. But Illysia is one player. If she, or anyone else does not like a specific RP, then she has the freedom not to participate in it. Please note, I'm not trying to pick on Illysia, I only use her because she is the person mentioned in the prior post. She herself posted a picture of many players in the tavern, pleased with how there were people RPing in groups again, and as she has just said herself: she's going to simply switch cities, instead of any dramatic expression of displeasure. THAT reaction is both commendable and mature, and if more players were open-minded in that fashion, I think we'd have a few less problems.
It's not true that it's impossible to ignore the RP because it's too forceful. I've been online and actively RPing every night this RP line has been taking place, and until someone literally shouted Teshia's name across the plaza, I hadn't had anything to do with it. There is a great deal to be said for the "Bystander Apathy" phenomenon, and how it can be used in such situations. It is not necessarily OOC for a character to hear someone crying bloody murder, and simply turn away, not wishing to deal with it. It doesn't make that character a "bad person," it is in fact human nature to try and push the responsibility for unpleasant situations onto others.
I don't think it's very fair to say that GMs shouldn't play in player-run plots because it shows favoritism, and in the same breath to say players shouldn't run plots because it isn't liked by another player. If the GMs are expected to be impartial, then the players should do the same.
Just something to think about... we have a few different classes of players here on PS. The two main that I see are the ones who are Ritual players, and those who are Sporadic players.
For the Ritual players, this type of violent RP can get old. They see the same types of RPs popping up every week or month, and it can become more of an irritation than a simple, relaxed RP that is possible to simply walk into any day.
For Sporadic players, who might log in once a week or less, everyday commonplace RPs can be banal and boring. They may want to see something more exciting than a drink in the tavern or the daily discussions over the forge.
The only solution is to find a balance that accommodates all player types and preferences. The GM team has started this, with running many different types of events for players to participate in: casinos, engravings, lost tefusanglings, thieves, mages causing mayhem. The players must do so as well, by having their varied RP plots and to an extent they have; masquerades, tournaments, markets, murders, kidnappings.
It's common courtesy to simply allow people to play as they see fit, within the settings and rules, and not tell them they shouldn't have a plot because someone else might not like it. I have a profound respect for players who see fit to plan, implement and run plots and events, even if it's a theme I don't personally enjoy. So, kudos to players like Illysia and Cairn for the effort they put into the game. It's that effort that keeps the players we have logging in. :thumbup:
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Sorry for the depressions my opinion caused. Opinions are different. It is hard to avoid annoyances planning an evil plot, and the more subtle the crime shall be, the more preparation a plot requires...
I could have ignored the kind of play I didn't like much. But instead, I tried to play along as good as I could, helping to get it going fast. And the fact that a Hydlaa Guard showed up at the plaza shows that at least one of the GMs agreed in joining. Now, expect the consequences when the killer is caught... ;)
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Thanks Tesrra but disagree slightly on a few points.
On the "why so and so left" part, yes... one monkey doesn't stop the show. ;) However, most of the people using that argument are using one person as a proxy for the hundreds that left. Player count used to be way higher. Plots might have had 30 people at any given time involved in it. I think Moon's uncommon cold RP was like that. Even I manged to stumble into it and I was brand new to RPing at the time. I'm afraid even I have heard people that are into this kind of plot (in general) comment on not wanting to deal with these kinds of plots due to the common execution of this kind of plot. However, that it not to say that you can't make adjustments so that the majority can get on with their day... especially if the majority are already content.
On the hard to ignore thing, if the water supply is poisoned, you don't get magical immunity from disease because you don't want to be bothered. Disease is pretty indiscriminate that way and tends to get out of hand quickly when so many bodies and dead parts and whatnot turn up in quick succession. Slowing down on the actual body parts count would help greatly as you won't have to handwave away certain effects. You can terrorize people without piling up rotting stuff. A little forethought can prevent actions that have consequences that spread to broadly.
On the ritual player and causal RP. I think there is a common misconception that people that fall more or less in this category "don't want/like action" and only sit around and "talk". I'd like to attempt to clear up that idea again. It's a very broad category with a variety of people. Most of the people in it like action same as anyone else, but they expect to spend time dealing with a particular incident longer. It's the difference between episodic conflict in a TV show and long story told over 3 large books. It's irritating because it seems that you haven't finished explaining why you bothered to catch everyone's attention before you start trying to draw their attention to something else. Not to mention not all action/conflict involves maiming and death, you can explore an issue in a variety ways even if the initial premise is death.
However, I believe that it is still possible to keep everyone on the same page... Not easy but possible.
and I think you mean *impressions your opinion caused LigH. ;)
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I can't be sorry for impressions. They are always positive. ;D
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I want to just post the :P smiley but that it against the rules, so I'm putting a sentence in this post too.
:P
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Illy, Tess, Ligh, Pierre - you guys are all super awesome!
All of your opinions are both valid and true. That being said, dust my shoulders of whatever argument you have with me in particular, and bask in the sense of community as well as applaud the common sense and nicety you all have shown!
Ergo, if you don't want to participate, do not! I will not be offended, nor will anyone else :)
As far as killings go, I sure don't have a problem stepping away from the more brutal ones. Of course it's been established, so those of you with weaker complexions can cease to worry :)
However, the RP will go on. It is an RP game, ergo - what has been stated.
I love you all, and especially leaders in this community such as you that have posted.
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I'm a little confused. Has the murderer found a way to always truekill everyone? I was under the impression that when someone dies their body and all their possessions are transported to the death realm. How are people finding corpses everywhere?
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Not always. There is a mix of actual player deaths, and then the bookdeaths - those corpses found in possible state of True Death. Of course, there is a mix of ways to cause True Death, in particular poisons.
I would never force true death on an actual player unless pre-arranged and agreed to for some reason. I never force death, even, mutilation, or anything permanent.
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It is said that there are certain poisons, instant incineration, and certain diseases which are capable of causing true death.
And sure, hundreds of people have left the game, but it's not simply because there were RPs they didn't like. There's much more to it: platform, progress on the mechanics, balancing, the GM/Devs, conflicts with other players, computer problems/not good enough specs, etc... There are so very many reasons, that it's not accurate to say "most/lots of/too many people leave because of RPs like this." I see RPs every day that I don't like, or don't want to participate in. Guess what, I just keep walking. Or, if it's something that my character dislikes as well, she RPs her dislike, which invariably results in an amusing interaction between characters.
Bottom line: We all need to be considerate and willing to compromise, and appreciative of the people who do go above and beyond to make the game fun and entertaining for others.
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Oh sure there were tons of reasons for all the people, but even this forum alone is full of the complaints and leaving threads of many people that left simply for RP reasons. Let alone the ones on other forums and just in complaining during chatting. This is the internet. Things still rarely end with most people simply turning their head when they dislike something. ;) It's just that it took awhile to get to this low and stay this low. However, you are right about this:
Bottom line: We all need to be considerate and willing to compromise, and appreciative of the people who do go above and beyond to make the game fun and entertaining for others.
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[Sorry, not trying to hijack this thread, if there is a more fitting place for this comment please move it. :-\
I typically do not get involved in the back and forth of forum disagreements, my posting history will show that. However in regards to the topic of RP, the lack thereof, and the way it should be done (which I have seen in numerous posts) I have to say I am a little frustrated.
I have been gone for some time now. I came back to test the waters and to me it seems there is a general desire for role play. I hear it from quite a few that I have spoken with in the past few weeks that I have been in game. They want something to get involved in. The dev team has made great progress in creating the environment to support and nurture it from what I have seen in my short time back.
I thought a good way to kick off my return to the game would be to introduce a little role play about my book that is missing. Unfortunately I am not very encouraged about the participation regardless of my efforts to get people involved. On a positive note members from the Way of the Hammer among a few other friends from the past have actively participated and I greatly appreciate it, but the whole point of it was to get people involved that may not necessarily interact otherwise and maybe a chance for me to meet some of the residents that are new to me. I am not saying that everyone should be involved because I say so, perhaps I am overlooking something that I am doing wrong.
Rewards whether tria or items never seem to garner much attention (this has happened with past RPs for me as well). What I find puzzling is yet another serial murder, vampire, zombie, poisoning, etc plot explodes. I am not discouraging or degrading the plot I just don’t understand why the darker themes seem to be the only RPs that get this type of attention. Maybe if plots with less ominous storylines were supported and had more involvement from players we would see more of the regular day to day type storylines develop?
As far as criminal/evil plot driving people from the city, it is a typical response to a city in decay. History has shown time and time again that people with the means to leave a city in decline will do so while the others are caught in the despair. The response for people to leave Hydlaa because of these kinds of happenings would be typical in any other place IRL. On the flip side, I would think a city like Ojaveda would be a more likely place for things like this to occur instead of in a city that is supposed to be the pinnacle of the civilization…
Sorry tried to be as brief as possible. Happy RPing!!! \\o//]
(edited for content/spelling)
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What a wonderful, thoughtful reply! Thank you, Indygo.
Here however is the sad truth. Each plot has layers, like yours. The entire story involving the serial killer, wulfar, etc. has multiple layers that players can choose to interact on. The top layer of course is mostly senseless. As you dig deeper, you find a whole lot more meaning. In fact, read excerpts from "Bjornsted" in the storywriting section, and you may get an interesting feel.
With your plot, it's similiar. It has multiple layers involving you and your character, Indygo the dwarf. Players choose to interact on whatever layer, from ignoring, to random chatting, to interaction, to helping, to solving the mystery - it's all player's choice base.
The sad fact of it is, for both of our RPs, most players will never interact beyond the most accessible layer. For you, it's especially a pity because as you said, those are the RPs that can be more meaningful. Of course, there's thrill in taking down a bad guy, but there's an actual meaningful bond made between characters when it involves the things that yours does.
I for one am glad you brought attention to your plot. I would love to get more involved! As always, the advice I give new players is to make yourself accessible - PS doesn't come to you, unfortunately. Always be a person that starts RP and gives it the extra shove to keep it going. Put the time and effort in to make it great for other players, and you'll receive a tremendous amount in return, whether it be self satisfaction, deeper bonds with players, or just the knowledge of a job well done.
In regards to your "city in decay" theory, yes and no. PSeco doesn't work very close to ours. There are times where they overlap and seem similar, but truth be told, that's not often the case.
People that play, or even find PlaneShift tend to be the dungeon master/hardcore rper/text based RP sort. (i know there are also several different types, just raise your hands!), and these folks crave adventures of the hack/n/slash, evil plot, mastermind variety. Duraza was a great example of this, UtM was even a great example of this. They fed deep, twisted plots to the people and they were gobbled up. Of course they're not meaningful, they're just popcorn and movie fun, but that's what a lot of people come for.
Those of you who feed Julia Roberts/Richard Gere stuff are to be commended! I try, on a daily basis, with a lot of my characters to do those same plots. Daily things, daily interactions, and meaningful ones at that.
But the factoids remain that sometimes people come here to get away from that, and to get lost in another world where dragons (gobbles) roam free!
Also, as far as player participation for the "calmer" events goes, there have in the past been great participation for RCD events, masquerade balls, etc. etc. It's just there isn't a group of people who do those as much anymore. I challenge you to do such!
[Simple Psych note: Everyone wants to be awesome. The want to be awesome usually overrules the want to give it out.]
And as always, there's just the morality of good vs. evil here. If you like good, you'll dislike bad plots. If you like bad, you'll shy away from good plots. If you're impartial, you'll try and get involved in both ;)
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I'm thinking we should ask Lilu to make the discussion into a new thread elsewhere. It's actually a very good discussion, and unlike the past, it hasn't turned nasty. And for that reason, please don't say "good or bad rp" out loud... it invokes the trolls. ;D
I apologize in advance to the people that don't know to expect forum dissertations from me.
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You make a good point Cairn. The layers thing is sad, but I really don't think we just have to be resigned to only having people just scratch the surface and walk away. Also, kudos for being that optimistic as I used to always be the RP initiator and optimistic, but after awhile of giving and the result not being very rewarding to me, it kinda just made me bitter and upset at wasted effort. Unfortunately, I had a decent amount of company in that feeling. But this current community might not produce that harsh a result. It seems more relaxed actually.
[Simple Psych note: Everyone wants to be awesome. The want to be awesome usually overrules the want to give it out.]
And as always, there's just the morality of good vs. evil here. If you like good, you'll dislike bad plots. If you like bad, you'll shy away from good plots. If you're impartial, you'll try and get involved in both ;)
Ok, here is a place where I have a bit of a complaint, not against you, but against the way plots typically get treated. I'll preface the following with the fact that I understand that my playing the game as a way to observe personalities is just my preference, and I don't expect everyone to do it. I love character studies, but that is just one way to approach the matter.
Yes, people want to be awesome. However, I partially blame modern games for setting up the expectation that each player is the most important person in the story and that the whole story depends on them and them alone. It complicates things in an MMO setting since you are inherently part of multiple intersecting stories, and everyone can't be the star. In this case, I'd like to the challenge people to shift focus slightly, and think less how your character is progressing the story and more on how the story is progressing around your character and how the story might be changing your character. I'm not sure if what I mean is clear, but I'll try to clarify.
When I play Zandral moping around in the tavern, I'm actually not doing it to draw much attention to Zandral's story but rather to add a different kind of character into the mix. Advancing her story is a bit difficult without certain other characters in play, but characters that come into the tavern now have a moody character to add to the general scenery. They also have a chance to help shape her as well. Her character is a result of the RPs she has been in, and even now, new RPs are changing her. If characters interact with her, she can be a source of conflict without actually being a danger. If they care enough to dig, there is a story, but even if they don't she brings variety to the scene.
When I play Danao, I play him to give people a new scenario to work with. He does have a relatively simple backstory, but his real purpose is to create a scenario where a character has to decide how to react to a male character that they mistook for female and all the interesting gendered scenarios that arise from that. He's not a plot device for advancing a particular story so much as a twist that can be added to any story that he happens to cross. Admittedly, for most people, doing this constantly would probably drive them crazy, but I think this is the key to doing the "daily" things. Be a section of the story, not necessarily the main plot of the story.
I distinctly remember that what I liked about characters from the past was that many of them were unique in personality and how they reacted to things, more so than how they acted. (and I do mean to draw a distinction between "action" and "reaction") A character might act a certain way and create a certain story when left to their own devices, but as soon as you start throwing in other characters and scenarios, you start diverging from that and making a completely new story because they have stopped acting and started reacting. It changes the story from linear to dynamic because each character's actions trigger a cascade of different reactions and possible new scenarios.
Nowadays, I often find it hard to tell where the break is between one scenario reaction and the next with other characters. Not only does it seem linear, but also like it's the same action line in most cases. However, I do believe this is due to a limited amount of scenarios being played out. There was a certain excitement, for me at least, just in seeing how the different characters could react to the same prompt, especially when they were all in close quarters at the time. It was also exciting to watch a scenario diverge wildly from what you expected due to a new element coming in and starting a new cascade of possibilities, even when it was my own plot.
I'm afraid that with the way plots are done now, it really feels like you could put any collection of characters together and roll pretty much the same story every time. It seems like you don't get to see the distinction between one dark way mage and another, for instance, or one murderer and another, or one character running to the defense of the city/people and another. They might have different back stories and they may feel differently about things but put them in a plot and they magically become interchangeable.
I blame this, partially, on the fact that plots have a tendency to be good/bad, and it pigeonholes the characters involved in them. That brings me to the next thing I take issue with. Limiting plots to good/bad simplifies things more than is necessary to keep a plot manageable. It also makes for type cast roles of "hero" and "bad guy" which lead to the interchangeability problem I complain about. If your character is "good" and takes the "hero" role, that leaves a handful of probably predictable actions. That, in turn, makes the story dull since it is pretty much scripted before it is even started, especially if it is the same formula as the last 5 that proceeded it. I understand that if you have limited time this might be more appealing, but you can still have meaningful interactions with stories that progress whether you are around or not, even in short bursts. "Daily" type RPs help with that because it leaves a space for your character to jump back in later.
Also, liking "good" plots and your character being "good" doesn't mean you will only get into "good" plots. Telnavi was a "good" character, for all intents and purposes. That didn't stop her from being an informant for Xeonart, or working for the outlaws. I prefer to stay on the "good" side of things, Telnavi herself never did anything more nefarious than flirt shamelessly, and yet, she found herself right smack dab in the middle of less than good things without it being terribly awkward or problematic for me.
There is so much complexity that can affect a character's actions that I never think it's a good idea to think in terms of good/bad, but rather, think in terms of your character's personality. It's why I wrote out the character context check (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=40712.msg456866#msg456866) a few months ago. If you force your character to work in only one or two contexts, good/bad and maybe family life, it makes it really hard to branch out beyond that. But, if you have in mind several contexts, and you toss different ones out there from time to time. You can use your character and other people's character's to tell some very unique and compelling stories. The kind you will still want go back and read, down to the last one, several years from now.
There's 50 million more points I could make but I'll have mercy on the 3 people that make it this far without skimming. :)
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Illysia (and others), in the most cordial fashion possible, I'd suggest just taking this discussion somewhere else. As it is the thread is already horribly :offtopic:. We don't need to continue in the super-long posts about explanations here, which, judging by the previous posts by the author, is probably supposed to be an IC thread. Thus, brackets [ ]. Just start another thread.
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I'm thinking we should ask Lilu to make the discussion into a new thread elsewhere.
A mod can simply move all the off topic posts. It will be much better for this thread to just take what is here and move it rather than leave it here. Making a new thread and starting up there right now will potentially mean someone having to read through, here, to make sure everything makes sense in the new thread when a move happens. It's a sleeker process to leave things in order here and ask for mod intervention.
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Well, I'll have to say is I'm glad I found a thread that is meant for the recent killings popping up in Hydlaa. My character Naira has no intention in staying around Hydlaa while such events are going on. She keeps her head low when such things are going on. But as my RL me, I'm interested in seeing where it all goes. Plus side I have some tidbits to give me clues as to when things may be getting fired up or cooling down. So that Naira can run about the city of Hydlaa if for even just a PS game night. So all in all I would like to conclude. Bravo to those taking part in this rp, whether it is reacting to the events or organizing. And to those of us who play characters that would not get involved for whatever reasons that may be, well maybe I'll have an extra chance to running into you while we steer clear of Hydlaa.
But specifically to all the investigators and body part distributors, please do keep up with adding bits of information here on where the bunny trial goes !
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Precisely. There was definite diversity, and there still is. The whole deal with that is as you mentioned, it's become a vicious cycle because of the cliques.
The real problem here isn't plots, lack of, or type. It's that the people who run them only play with each other. That's why I made this plot, irregardless of type, was to simply expand the horizons of others. Nothing like a good masquerade ball or vicious person to rally a community.
It's like Evirea posted, ICly. Don't be afraid Hydlaa, ICly. Don't be afraid, Yliakum, OOCly. Perhaps not fear, but lack of interaction, or simply tucking it away as another plot.
You know why? Because when/if you choose to interact in this plot, it's the aftereffects, the ripples that really create the community.
a cycle down the road, you may have the daily interactions of the new friends that met because of this. You'll have the romances, drama, and the tension as a result of the people who've gotten to RP with each other simply because of this (and other) plots.
You can't have 'too much' RP. I don't care what the state of RP in PS is, or who wants what type of plot, really.
I just want the community, man. Give me that, and I'm set. The 30 people who've never met before this plot are gonna have a chance to make something waaaay more beautiful than a few days worth of killings. Look already at what characters are choosing to do! This is reaction! This is real, raw, everyday reactions! What more could you want?
Personally, I am living it. I've never wanted to be a star, which you correctly surmise to be a result of modern day gaming (and western society, even.), I want others to be it. I make plots to make community to make plots to make community.
Back in 'the day' that you speak of, people did exactly the same thing. Guess what? people didn't like it. It made PS what it is, though.
Naira's response is as clarion as a call as it gets: bravo to those taking part, whether as a reaction or as organizers. To those who won't get involved for whatever reasons - I'll see you around! This is expansion!
This is reaction! My work here is done :P
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Hehe, I disagree but glad you are happy. I really think the problem is the type of plot, most of the regular RPers now seem to actually RP with each other. However, it always seems like it is roughly the same story each time. But, for what it is worth, I will be the first to admit the Ball had little actual effect on the community, other than bringing people in close quarters for awhile but not necessarily bringing them any closer together. As far as I can tell, it hasn't cascaded into a blessed thing.
I'll wait and see. I don't think this plot will spawn much more than more "baddie" hunting but I will keep an open mind about it. I'm afraid that I've grown accustomed to a style of RPing where we create the actors in a story but let the stories write themselves. It's simply not as fun for me if I already know the large plot points already, but If some people are happy with that way, I say enjoy it.
I will be collecting people that still like the old way in Amdeneir and people are free to drop in and look. Those that don't like it can work with the Hydlaa plot, and I suppose together we'll keep PS populated.
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But, for what it is worth, I will be the first to admit the Ball had little actual effect on the community, other than bringing people in close quarters for awhile but not necessarily bringing them any closer together.
I don't agree with this, at least for me the ball opened new opportunities to find new friend ICly and OOCly. I liked the masquerade ball idea so much.
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Yeah, I'd have to go with Eon on that one. I know that it brought a lot of new people together.
And as far as Old-style RPers...
yeah, they're still around. Along with the new style ones, who are just as good, and hopefully get involved in both Amdeneir and Hydlaa!
And I hope the plot spawns more than just baddy hunting, I really do! I've layered it to be able to produce quite a bit more, so we'll just see how everyone digs in to it. The killings is just the tip of an iceberg, as the rest of the plot is far less violent and much more social based. I just needed a quick, surefire way to gather a lot of people. The rest is history!
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It's not like it was a failure, because Aiwe and several behind the scenes helpers were there to make sure it wasn't ;) , but it didn't do what I was arranging it for. Even I couldn't put as much into it as I had intended since I had to do stuff for it and finals at the same time. But if some people got more than simply a reason to show up on those days that's good.
As long as there is more than senseless killing, I leave you to leading people to RP via killing. For what it is worth, they may end up needing to go to Amdeneir to buy something for the pain from Zandral. :innocent:
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Also, as far as player participation for the "calmer" events goes, there have in the past been great participation for RCD events, masquerade balls, etc. etc.
It's not like it was a failure, because Aiwe and several behind the scenes helpers were there to make sure it wasn't ;)...
Sure you two...drag me into this. :/
But after reading the thread now I can't have a few things here uncommented. RCD events are not a good example for any kind of event at all in my view. They were just exactly what the GM team forced us to do to keep the Den. We had to do "neutral" events that allowed everyone to participate. The real interesting RP around the Den was going on at other times. But if you really want to categories RCD events then it's probably better to categories them as baddie events as they were all build on lies and intrigues executed by leaders of a criminal organization (and at times included some violence as well..just never in public and usually only with players around who were asked if they are fine with that kind of RP. No way that anything of that would have made it on the forums here).
It's just there isn't a group of people who do those as much anymore. I challenge you to do such!
And at the moment there is simply no point in doing such kinds of RP at all. The attention span of players is too short to do anything complex and people are more interested in self-contained RP events than on-going RPs that weren't preplanned.
Here however is the sad truth. Each plot has layers, like yours. The entire story involving the serial killer, wulfar, etc. has multiple layers that players can choose to interact on. The top layer of course is mostly senseless. As you dig deeper, you find a whole lot more meaning. In fact, read excerpts from "Bjornsted" in the storywriting section, and you may get an interesting feel.
With your plot, it's similiar. It has multiple layers involving you and your character, Indygo the dwarf. Players choose to interact on whatever layer, from ignoring, to random chatting, to interaction, to helping, to solving the mystery - it's all player's choice base.
The sad fact of it is, for both of our RPs, most players will never interact beyond the most accessible layer. For you, it's especially a pity because as you said, those are the RPs that can be more meaningful. Of course, there's thrill in taking down a bad guy, but there's an actual meaningful bond made between characters when it involves the things that yours does.
People don't get "beyond the most accessible" layer because it are artificially created layers. No...you shouldn't have to read any stories to grasp the depth of a plot. And no, plot depth should not be determined in advance. The depth of plots comes from actually playing the game, not planing in advance. I never really noticed a problem with players not getting in the depth of the plot...because there were always players already there. Let's take the Theater play (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35474.0) we did in the Den. On the most obvious layer it was just a entertainment show for the masses. A lot of people who came to get entertained and enough people who got involved with the planning and auditions. Plenty of RP possibilities there with plenty of "side-plots" like a guildmember of Monala as actor reminding Aiw all the time what she is about to steal. ;)
But then of course this play had a very interesting topic...one that Lhaa and Aiwendil were not aware of at all. It was written by Orgonwukh as a reaction to an incident involving Imperial Guard [yeah...that long ago, back when Dark Empire was still split in several guilds] and his son. The theater play mocking the Imperial Guards like this and Lady Greenmoon in the first row in the audience was bound to lead to some "smaller troubles" between the Outlaws (who back then ran the Red Crystal Den) and the Dark Empire. Of course it didn't help that Lady Greenmoon was quite suspicious about the management of the Den already before that. Result: Several "accidents" among outlaws and DE members and in the long term it was one of the IC reasons for the Outlaws/RCD split. Not to mention all the "sub-layers" resulting from this like the mistrust of Telnavi because she dated a DE member (who flirted with Aiw before that btw Illy :P) or the raise of Rigwyn within the OLs. People with access to that layer: All OLs, all DEs and a few bystanders who got the trust of one of those organizations. This whole "layer" was merely a "accident"...nobody really thought about it before. It was just good timing that DE got very active again around the time we did that theater play. At the time we made the decision to do the Theater play as first event no DE member was around in game at all. But because it rooted in old stories all this became possible.
Different layer..but same event. Semutara vs. Lhaa/Aiw. Orgonwukh wrote the play, I hope OOCly we made that clear enough...but ICly we "forgot" to mention that on purpose most of the time...and pissed Orgonwukh and his girlfriend Semutara off by this. (Okay, not only this. This whole story if far more complicated...with Orgonwukh having killed a close friend of Lhaa but only Aiwendil knowing this, the downfall of the Mind's eye collective, Semutara being...Semutara, Org sleeping on the floor in front of Aiws bed... ;))Result: Fire in the Den, Power struggle within the Outlaws, a lot if intrigues and lies (again not true we never RPed Illy...even if we didn't succeed we tried to get Zandral to convince Marq it would be the right time to move against Org back then). Involved players: All RCD staff, all Outlaws, plenty of others...on both sides. Again nothing of this was planned. The theater play event was just the last spark an ongoing RP needed to "escalate"
The point is...none of those layers were created by a single person. They developed in game and because of that always had enough people with access to them. That's something you can never achieve with a preplanned plot.
Now to the masquerade ball:
Well, I think that event did well what was it's purpose...giving some old players a reason to join PS for a few days to meet old friends and maybe spark a few RP conversations among the active player base. Illysia did a very good job there, but I never doubted that at all. Compared to running the Stonehead that event was a piece of cake. But again it shouldn't serve as example for other events...it had some major flaws. First of all it was just anther "self-contained" event. The chars we used for this event were more or less created specifically for this event and their story was OOCly agreed on. Not that we had any other chance...we both didn't play PS at all back then so had to use new chars but it is a prefect example for bad events. Stories just created to serve an event...nothing more. On the other hand I not as pessimistic about not being able to go through with everything...my biggest problem with the end was that I wasn't prepared to kiss a char of Illy (*runs very, very fast*). I think the way those two chars acted were kind of fine. Mostly they just acted as moderators in the event giving other players the chance to present their skills. They also didn't push the event story by all means...I think only those players who really wanted to get involved in the story did while the rest could easily just ignore it. But of course Illy is right about us not having enough time for the event...we had to improvise a lot just because we had no time to do it the right way.
Last but not least...the endless killing and violence in PS.
Actually I don't have much to say there. All examples I have seen of this in PS are very poorly done and plain boring. In most cases it's just violence for the fun of it. But from the looks of it that's what players want so all my (and others) efforts in the past to make baddies more realistic seem to have failed. But not really a big deal to ignore it in game...Illysia did a good start by just moving to another town I think. The only thing I really dislike is that "My character sneezed...I must post it on the forums" attitude. If you really want to post everything your char does then create an blog for it and just post the link once. This is even more true with RPs that involve violence. RP takes place in the game...not on the forums. And RP is collective story writing..not one person presenting his superior writing skills to others.
Edit: Getting rid of stupid smiles
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You're killing me, smallses! I'm killing me too..., so let's go back to basics. Semantics and opinion aside, we can re-start the debate and you all can pick at these points as you see fit:
1.) I made this plot to gather RPers together. Not for the sake of fluffing my own pride or senseless killings, but to break a few molds and rally the people who don't get to play with others that often.
*Semantics: I take full responsibility for people liking and disliking it, as it is my doing. Rail it on me, ladies and gents.
2.) There needs to be more of this type of plot! Not the killings, but just...bigger ones that more people get into!
3.) Quality of RP in PlaneShift has absolutely not gone down. We'll always look fondly upon whatever 'golden days' we participated in (my favorite period was 07-09), but it is an absolute insult to the players now to say they are any less than the players then. Different perhaps, but no better or worse.
*Semantics: the key here is the word different. There's so many ways to take, play, and enjoy PlaneShift, it's wrong to say yours or anyone else's is better.
4.) Everyone keeps getting hung up on the apparent stupidity of this plot. I take that as it comes, because right now, the plot's first layer isn't all that apparent. The few of you who have gotten to RP with the killer may realize more. Those who don't, well of course it's thin and offending. Deal with it. Life's thin and offending as it goes. Take this opportunity to react accordingly, and enjoy your time in it!
5.) Improvise! Aiwendil is most correct when he states that the best RPs are not pre-planned for reactions. Neither is mine! There's just alot of reactions that you can have to it, and that's what I meant by layers - not that I have it set to where if ___ then ___, rather, it's a completely evolving storyline. Each RP in PlaneShift is, and those who try to bend it to their will are always unsuccessful and always brutalized.
6.) You may disagree with my methods, but focus on the results. The results thus far is a mixed bag: Illysia dislikes it OOCly, so she posts as such. That's all well and good and Zandral doesn't like the results, and thus goes to Amdeneir. That's neither good nor bad, simply reaction. Cool. Other characters are interested, therefore form a group and talk about it and how to solve it. That's all well and good, ICly, because it's a natural thing. OOCly, it's caused a veritable dungstorm on the forums, which I don't mind, because at least everyone gets the chance to throw some dung on the heap. Life'll go on, feelings will get hurt, but hey, that's PlaneShift!
7.) Participation is key. You'll get bad, biased information if you don't take part. OOC/IC leak, baby - RP's killer right there.
KEY POINT 8.) This all boils down to opinion. You like it, or you don't. I like hearing opinions though, so keep em coming.
Subplot Notes:
@ Aiwendil: I agree with you to a point. The key point of contention for me is that you have such disdain for the events that the GMs made you run. Those were a key high for a lot of people outside of the OL guild, and introduced OLers to a lot of new friends/enemies/relations. I know, being a member of the OL off and on at points throughout time, that the OL has always been a decent guild. You can't deny there were times where it fell prey to the clique and elitist attitude, however. There are prime examples of that as far as the eye can see.
Also can't deny they furthered RP more than many other guilds, though. So they had/have their ups and downs.
b.) (see above in context), I don't particulary care either way. Everyone was great, blah dee blah.
intrigue and suspicion still abound in PS, Aiw. So does obviousness. You have to have both to make a real, living world. Don't bash on either one, because it falls to opinion again - you like one way better than you like another.
I'll not make illustrations. Simply put, I take part in both. Your call whether you do to. (This isn't so much directed to you, Aiwendil, as it is to a general reader. I know you're not active as the term goes.)
*sigh*. And addressing your "all your efforts" point.
Damn. Seriously? That just rips on everyone in this game. Are you that biased in saying that your realism is any better than theirs or mine?
C'mon now. Yes, I'm goading you. Flaming, some may call it. But it's called for, I think, after that.
*there will always be an imbalance when it comes to this side of the game, because we don't have a large population to provide all the different facets of society.
You were a /great/ bad guy RPer. Realistic, to a fault. Intrigue, suspense, real reaction - that was you! Commendable, to be sure. I enjoyed playing with you, and it was a highlight for me.
Does that make you better? No. RP IS and must REMAIN RP. How one person chooses to RP in a game will NEVER make it better than ANYONE else's RP, ever. Equality must reign supreme, else there will always be elitism and asshattery.
There is realism in a petty offense, a brutal offense, a senseless offense, and each and every crime that is committed in PlaneShift, or in the real world. It is by choice that the players and the real criminals choose to commit them, therefore they are real. A ten year old may kill his friend because of a chemical imbalance, or even petty jealousy. For a ten year old to hop on PlaneShift and go out and kill someone because of petty jealousy or chemical imbalance does not make him any less a great RPer than the legends of this game. Killing for want is even real. I've worked with psychotics who kill because they have that desire to, with no reason or other rhyme. I've played with each side, trust you me.
The only thing that I will ever hold offense against is:
RP with no reason at all/trolling/killing because you /want/ to OOCly.
All that being said, I apologize for burned feelers.
P.S.
Love the note on any one person's skills, Aiw. That is wonderful and true.
It's a collective, post collective efforts :)
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Also, as far as player participation for the "calmer" events goes, there have in the past been great participation for RCD events, masquerade balls, etc. etc.
I think my issue with using those would be that there was techincally great "player turn out" more so than participation. In most cases, people would show up to be entertained, sit there, and then leave. But oh well.
Sure you two...drag me into this. :/
Well you did help me the most, but I can just not thank you next time. :P
And at the moment there is simply no point in doing such kinds of RP at all. The attention span of players is too short to do anything complex and people are more interested in self-contained RP events than on-going RPs that weren't preplanned.
I agree and disagree. There is a point in doing it, you just aren't likely to get much back for your efforts and I think we have burned out enough on that topic.
(Now skip some comments from me on layers, Org and Sem, Lhaa and Aiwe, and stuff since it's not terribly relevant at this particular point.)
Now to the masquerade ball:
Well, I think that event did well what was it's purpose...giving some old players a reason to join PS for a few days to meet old friends and maybe spark a few RP conversations among the active player base.
Well, that was in there but actually that wasn't what I had intended it for. I was hoping to spawn a series of events. I was hoping that if people saw one, they would be moved to do their own larger scale events and would ask for help if they didn't know how... :/ I would have settled for them doing more smaller scale events that were more accessible to people that weren't already involved. I think there might have been one or two of those but I was hoping it would become more common.
On the other hand I not as pessimistic about not being able to go through with everything...my biggest problem with the end was that I wasn't prepared to kiss a char of Illy (*runs very, very fast*). I think the way those two chars acted were kind of fine. Mostly they just acted as moderators in the event giving other players the chance to present their skills. They also didn't push the event story by all means...I think only those players who really wanted to get involved in the story did while the rest could easily just ignore it. But of course Illy is right about us not having enough time for the event...we had to improvise a lot just because we had no time to do it the right way.
Aww... Edaru was so cute though. I didn't have much story because I didn't want to impose on the stories that players wanted to create during that event. Imagine my surprise that people didn't really feel like jumping in like people in the past did. Not only did I not have the problem of fighting people to keep them on track, we ended up being left hanging and had to rush to put more of our story in place and also to try and tie it up once most players seemed less inclined to do anything other than stand there and hallucinate. Thank goodness for the players that did perform and try to sell at the market as we could only compensate so much for that. It was a lot of work just to set up the ball, much more to try and play all parts. However, I stick out that some of the older players probably didn't do more because they didn't want to step on my toes and make me yell at them for ruining my event. ;D And there was one story that someone wanted to tell, but fortunately, they took the killing to the other side of the city wall.
3.) Quality of RP in PlaneShift has absolutely not gone down. We'll always look fondly upon whatever 'golden days' we participated in (my favorite period was 07-09), but it is an absolute insult to the players now to say they are any less than the players then. Different perhaps, but no better or worse.
*Semantics: the key here is the word different. There's so many ways to take, play, and enjoy PlaneShift, it's wrong to say yours or anyone else's is better.
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Damn. Seriously? That just rips on everyone in this game. Are you that biased in saying that your realism is any better than theirs or mine?
I think there is another breakdown in understanding of what each other is talking about. What constituted a good RP and what wasn't a good RP wasn't dependent on a single person or just their opinion but rather a general consensus on a single standard that has since been lost in transition. It used to be passed down from the older players but then a bunch of players left at the same time for different reasons. Almost all of us that complain about not using this standard had to come to the point of accepting it. It's not like we started RPing with that standard. We picked it up from the people we saw RPing that were considered the "good RPers" and they were as varied as now. But it helped keep everyone on the same page and smoothed out interaction between different RP focus (good, bad, talking, hunting, whatever). I'm not sure what everyone else's impression was, but my impression of the standard was that you:
1. Never preplan. It's considered bad form
2. Create a character that is distinct in behavior. You can have 20 mages if you still tell them apart by how they act. Same for barflys... ;D
3. Don't godmod. It's rude.
4. Don't do anything that wouldn't make sense in the context of the RPs going on around you. You are a section of the story, not the story.
5. If you see a character, that you don't recognize, that seems to follow this standard, chances are, it's just the alt of someone you already know of or RP with.
The reason the killings are problematic is not because of some perceived ineptitude, but rather, there is no way you can logically have that much killing and not have the Octarch declare martial law and put the clamp on everything going on in that city. It fits within settings, but not logically. The amount of killing that always get promoted in Hydlaa would leave merchants and citizens abandoning the city to save their lives. It would not be a suitable capital for the most powerful person on the level. Tourism would slow incredibly and it all would ruin the city. This goes back to the section of story thing.
A single killing or a few can be overlooked, several in quick succession becomes problematic, but the years of Hydlaa being the murder capital of the game is just silly. Especially considering the brutality often involved.
OOCly, it's caused a veritable dungstorm on the forums, which I don't mind, because at least everyone gets the chance to throw some dung on the heap. Life'll go on, feelings will get hurt, but hey, that's PlaneShift!
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C'mon now. Yes, I'm goading you. Flaming, some may call it. But it's called for, I think, after that.
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This does not even begin to rank as a "dungstorm" on this forum. :P
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Interesting discussion going on. I just want to add a few of my thoughts.
RP without a purpose is an empty shell and the main purposes for me are: have fun, get to know yourself better, get to know the others around you better and meet new friends (add yours).
That said if pre-planning fulfill the above purposes it's good, if not it's not.
Just remember in any RP there's always and there will always be pre-planning, however small. There are no coincidences without a past.
That said, serial-killing is not my favorite kind of RP but I hope as many people as possible can enjoy it nonetheless.
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Illy, I really like that post! It makes a lot of sense, and you're definitely right.
Aiw, definitely sorry if I took your post out of context, it probably seems like I did looking back on it :p
And my context is simply it's a game, I want everyone to get to know each other. Sorry for any hardcore purists I offended, etc.
Doubtless there will be chiding posts saying "well, shoulda pre-planned it out more man!"
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The problem is not so much the planning but the scripting. Maybe a vocabulary change is needed here. If you make a certain character that reacts certain ways, like zandral is probably going to be either cranky or aloof, then you stick them into a scene/scenario, like having her interact with a character that irritates her but she if forced to interact with them, the a story will form itself. Better to leave the planning to setting up a scenario like say loopy Nolthrir bringing a party to the city ;) and then you start working out from there as you are in the RP.
For my context, the RP is for the purpose of telling the story of Yliakum even more so than getting people to interact. We create a dynamic and compelling world even if not everyone directly interacts with each other. It's like reading a book to me. But each little story needs to be coherent to tell a consistent story across the world, so everyone needs a similar standard to work off of to tie everything together.
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All that being said, I apologize for burned feelers.
No need to...didn't notice anything offending in your post.
*sigh*. And addressing your "all your efforts" point.
Damn. Seriously? That just rips on everyone in this game. Are you that biased in saying that your realism is any better than theirs or mine?
Ugh, seems my bad English bites me again. At no point I wanted to say it's better. I wanted to say that PS has no pure thief guilds, mafia like connections or spying services anymore. These things are not wanted/needed nowadays anymore. "Realism" was maybe the wrong word to use there. Of course I enjoyed such RPs...or I wouldn't have taken part in them but my point merely was that people enjoying these things are gone from PS.
I know, being a member of the OL off and on at points throughout time, that the OL has always been a decent guild. You can't deny there were times where it fell prey to the clique and elitist attitude, however. There are prime examples of that as far as the eye can see.
Of course not...my RP guide I wrote for the OLs even contained the suggestion to just ignore players that annoy you. First of all PS is a game and meant to be fun. If something isn't fun for you ignore it. Illysia argued about that attitude pretty often with me but I still think it's the best way to handle it. Not everyone is able to play nicely with everyone else and once you had the efforts of many destroyed by a single player who messed up badly you get a bit more picky about the people you play with. It wouldn't have been fun for many duellers to be forced to include me in their battles either.
Does that make you better? No. RP IS and must REMAIN RP. How one person chooses to RP in a game will NEVER make it better than ANYONE else's RP, ever. Equality must reign supreme, else there will always be elitism and asshattery.
Again that better stuff...I totally agree with you here. There is no better. But calling it elitism or asshattery if people prefer to stick with the stuff that is fun for them isn't helping either.
For a ten year old to hop on PlaneShift and go out and kill someone because of petty jealousy or chemical imbalance does not make him any less a great RPer than...
Sorry, but yes...it does. I don't really like your example but RP is about leaving OOC stuff out of it. If your only motivations for an action of your char are OOC reason they you are not roleplaying at all. (Though I think I got this one wrong..I know ;))
I've worked with psychotics who kill because they have that desire to, with no reason or other rhyme.
Nobody denies this. Nobody would complain if that was the core of a RP once a year...but it is not...it's just overused..as killing in general is in PS. Definition of a baddie in PS: The person who kills women and children. Definition of a goody: The person who kills the baddie.
Aiw, definitely sorry if I took your post out of context, it probably seems like I did looking back on it :p
Yeah, sure...apologize again while I write my post. There is NO NEED FOR IT. These are the PS forums and this is one of the tamest discussion I have ever seen here.
Edit: Typos
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Ah! See, I knew I took it out of context >.>
And again, sorry, sometimes I forget you're German :/ Not that being German is bad. It's just the subtleties in the English language piss even English people off.
Agreed on all points, though, save the OOC Reasons one - I meant if a 10 year old RPed having a mental imbalance, sorry, that was just bad English on the native's part ;D
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Does that make you better? No. RP IS and must REMAIN RP. How one person chooses to RP in a game will NEVER make it better than ANYONE else's RP, ever. Equality must reign supreme, else there will always be elitism and asshattery.
Again that better stuff...I totally agree with you here. There is no better. But calling it elitism or asshattery if people prefer to stick with the stuff that is fun for them isn't helping either.
Yeah, I think we need to take a moment to address that often, this happens. Most of the time when we complain we mean no harm but most of the really nasty arguments started when folks got on their high horse and started mudslinging and calling us elitist, and profane names and what not... Even when we are trying to be nice and helpful. Not cool. Bad behavior doesn't cease being bad behavior just because someone thinks moral momentum is on their side. However, I do think some RP is better than others. But I base my judgement on storytelling ability not on content so much. And yes, there are grades of storytelling ability.
For a ten year old to hop on PlaneShift and go out and kill someone because of petty jealousy or chemical imbalance does not make him any less a great RPer than...
Sorry, but yes...it does. I don't really like your example but RP is about leaving OOC stuff out of it. If your only motivations for an action of your char are OOC reason they you are not roleplaying at all. (Though I think I got this one wrong..I know ;))
I agree with aiwe. But again, I judge based on storytelling. "I kill you because you are there" isn't a story. It's an action but there is no actual story there. Also, just using an imbalance is fine as long as there aren't a ton of back to back instances using that same excuse. Anyone that consistently imbalanced would be locked away at the very least not freely roaming the streets so that they can do it again.
I've worked with psychotics who kill because they have that desire to, with no reason or other rhyme.
Nobody denies this. Nobody would complain if that was the core of a RP once a year...but it is not...it's just overused..as killing in general is in PS. Definition of a baddie in PS: The person who kills women and children. Definition of a goody: The person who kills the baddie.
Yeah and here is a problem with good and bad. If goodie and baddie alike are slaughtering, it's pretty much the same coin different sides. I would be equally as wary of a "good" character that turns to killing as a first solution as I would a murdering "lunatic".
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And again, sorry, sometimes I forget you're German :/
Ahm...that either says something about the general quality of english writings in the net...or your are just try to be nice to me and lie ;) *giggles*
Not that being German is bad.
it's not good either. ;)
Agreed on all points, though, save the OOC Reasons one - I meant if a 10 year old RPed having a mental imbalance, sorry, that was just bad English on the native's part ;D
Yeah, thought so after reading it a second time. Still replied to it because I think it's something very important for everyone to understand...so basically misused your "bad English" to get a point through. ;)
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I agree with aiwe. But again, I judge based on storytelling. "I kill you because you are there" isn't a story. It's an action but there is no actual story there. Also, just using an imbalance is fine as long as there aren't a ton of back to back instances using that same excuse. Anyone that consistently imbalanced would be locked away at the very least not freely roaming the streets so that they can do it again.
Or maybe there is a backstory to it ^.^ childhood abuse, poor parenting decisions during pregnancy, I mean, the options are endless. (And out there)
In fact, for this particular story, it's easy to explain, if you'd like. Of course, others'd RP it differently. Curious, that....
And understandably towards your also points too, of course. They're all fair and correct, it's just the way I say em that makes people angry I suppose. English subtleties again there for ya Aiw. Hard to look past for anyone :/
And yes, of course there are grades of storytelling ability! It's the difference between Tolkien and 50 shades of grey woman right there. And arguably one story is better than the other one, of course - but it would be nice to think they all matter.
Mostly, I thank you, Illysia and Aiwendil both, for remaining open-minded despite your differing opinions on matters. Conclusively, I think we agree as it is - despite what some like and dislike :)
(As for the naming, it's not directed at either of you too either. It's just a general term, not even for players, but for something they fall prey to, myself and others included - not politically correct, sure, but certainly not incorrect either. Just something to be wary of for dirty blue collars like myself.)
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1.) I made this plot to gather RPers together. Not for the sake of fluffing my own pride or senseless killings, but to break a few molds and rally the people who don't get to play with others that often.
*Semantics: I take full responsibility for people liking and disliking it, as it is my doing. Rail it on me, ladies and gents.
Breaking molds clique-wise is always good, but frankly a serial killer plot looks like every other plot in PS, except this one is on a bigger scale. It doesn't appear to be breaking any molds on the surface; if I hadn't read this thread or didn't know Cairn I'd probably think "Oh, just another power-fantasy-playing teenage boy who wants to kill f*in' everything". Which leads to...
2.) There needs to be more of this type of plot! Not the killings, but just...bigger ones that more people get into!
This. I'm as guilty of sitting back and doing nothing when nothing is going on as the next person. It's because I have a difficult time thinking of a plot that a) people would be interested in without deaths or kidnappings involved, and b) wouldn't risk being turned into that by others too much. Frankly I'm better at giving one character a backstory with some motivation to hang around and seek out others - for example, when I was new, I had Monala looking for signs of a missing friend. Another character of mine is an old guy that's looking for a wife to share his last days with (albeit in the rather unorthodox way of running around in nothing but a codpiece and feathers and hitting on every adult female in sight). I'm also not as fond of running 'events'; I'd rather let the RP occur naturally without making people think there may be some reward in it for them, be it an item, trias, or their name mentioned in an RP thread in the forums.
The only thing that I will ever hold offense against is:
RP with no reason at all/trolling/killing because you /want/ to OOCly.
I experienced this not long ago. Someone (I won't name names) sent me a tell asking for RP and then had their character kill mine (they didn't specify OOC that it'd be violent). No point, no further direct communication with me after that session, they just wanted some violence. I probably shouldn't have agreed to it as they were creeping me out with their OOC tells (nothing bannable or particularly inappropriate, just...creepy).
This is partially why people are speaking against big, "forceful" plots involving hard to ignore bodies dumped everywhere. I don't mind it, but allow me to play devil's advocate and draw some parallels here:
First off, in the case of the serial killer, it'd be exceedingly difficult to get through town unspotted with a corpse on your person. Secondly, a lack of GM guards or, as I recently heard of, deputized player characters, shouldn't mean the NPCs are completely inactive. People doing this seem to encourage other players to treat the NPCs the same way, and then you get Hydlaa becoming the Compton of Yliakum. This has been a problem since I started playing in 2008 and most likely well before that, too.
The killing I spoke of took place right in front of William. I still went along with it because I was trying to figure out who the player was and because I was bored and had wanted to RP, but really, I think the banker would have probably done something. The player probably should have at least tried to get my character to the houses by the Temple where there are plenty of hiding spots (though it'd have been difficult for him to do as he was acting creepy IC as well). It could've led to a chase scene, which would have at least been more fun for me, the victim's player. Treating silent inactive NPCs as just that can be construed as metagaming, which can and will make people think "bad RP", regardless of whether you want people to say it out loud.
It's not fun to just have your character swooped down upon with a dagger every five minutes and, if you prefer playing realistically, wandering and recovering from the wounds they sustained in the fight that didn't kill them in the Death Realm (particularly since few people enjoy staying there for long. It is kind of a boring area without many places to inspire RP, really, but that's another can of worms). Some also don't find it all that fun to find a truly dead corpse and bloody writing every five feet in the city that acts as the RP hub of the game.
I'm not saying the RP faux-pas of ignoring NPCs is the sole reason people will be annoyed by these, it's just one of them. There are more like what's already been mentioned - real life is more than violent enough and people play to escape it, killing plots are overdone, et cetrea. The incident I took part in was stupid all around, and I feel stupid for having participated in it now, given it's the sort of RP I tend to avoid for the most part. Fight scenes are really obnoxious to me, especially with one person seemingly intent on 'winning'. I was thoroughly annoyed with the player, who just seemed to want to fulfil that power fantasy, throughout the RP. It's not much of a stretch to see how people might feel that way about true death killers (whose plots crop up every few months it seems).
(EDIT: You people post too freakin' fast! I had to try to post this three times and got the "waaaaait, there's x new posts now!" message interrupting me ;D)
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Ooh, semantics >.>
I don't like getting into those, so I'll just agree with ya Candy :p (because you are right)
Anyways, I wash my hands of this thread for the most part. It boils down to things that I don't want to have to dig into with a needle and microscope to please everybody, because that wears on me too much and it just creates tension. Simply put, I'll just say I am aware of the settings and how to wrap around them, as are all of you lovely RPers, of which I am glad for.
Things are just not as they appear is all I can leave you with, honestly. This particular portion of the RP did what I wanted it to, so I can move on to the goals. Killing massly without intent has never been part of 'the plan', or senseless evil. I apologize that I have to explain that, but it might clear the air I suppose >.>
Intrigue and mystery, let it pleasure you!
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Well, going back to my real stance on this, I'm looking forward to Chays assisting his guildmate in trying to solve the murders (and being kicked in the butt to do something completely unrelated IC, too ;) ).
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At this point, I don't think the issue is actually getting you to change the RP Cairn. But this really is the first time there has been a civil forum for this discussion. The issue has been raised 50 million times but it always devolved into something mucky before anyone could actually explain what they were concerned about.
Or maybe there is a backstory to it ^.^ childhood abuse, poor parenting decisions during pregnancy, I mean, the options are endless. (And out there)
...
And yes, of course there are grades of storytelling ability! It's the difference between Tolkien and 50 shades of grey woman right there. And arguably one story is better than the other one, of course - but it would be nice to think they all matter.
That kind of RP is kinda like writing a paper. Certain rules can be bent if you have the skill, but it is a rare few that attempt it that actually have the skill for it. It's like me discouraging new RPers from playing baddie characters. Few that are new have the storytelling ability to pull off a baddie character that isn't facepalm worthy. It's not that you can't get there eventually, but no, not every attempt gives a good result.
That's something else from the past. even if you were counted as a "good RPer" there was always the expectation that you would keep improving. We never assumed that anyone was at the top of the game and we always criticized each other with the goal of helping each other expand their skill in telling stories.
However, I do think we agree on the broad scale, it's the details that we quibble over. ;)
First off, in the case of the serial killer, it'd be exceedingly difficult to get through town unspotted with a corpse on your person. Secondly, a lack of GM guards or, as I recently heard of, deputized player characters, shouldn't mean the NPCs are completely inactive. People doing this seem to encourage other players to treat the NPCs the same way, and then you get Hydlaa becoming the Compton of Yliakum. This has been a problem since I started playing in 2008 and most likely well before that, too.
The killing I spoke of took place right in front of William. I still went along with it because I was trying to figure out who the player was and because I was bored and had wanted to RP, but really, I think the banker would have probably done something. The player probably should have at least tried to get my character to the houses by the Temple where there are plenty of hiding spots (though it'd have been difficult for him to do as he was acting creepy IC as well). It could've led to a chase scene, which would have at least been more fun for me, the victim's player. Treating silent inactive NPCs as just that can be construed as metagaming, which can and will make people think "bad RP", regardless of whether you want people to say it out loud.
It's not fun to just have your character swooped down upon with a dagger every five minutes and, if you prefer playing realistically, wandering and recovering from the wounds they sustained in the fight that didn't kill them in the Death Realm (particularly since few people enjoy staying there for long. It is kind of a boring area without many places to inspire RP, really, but that's another can of worms). Some also don't find it all that fun to find a truly dead corpse and bloody writing every five feet in the city that acts as the RP hub of the game.
I'm not saying the RP faux-pas of ignoring NPCs is the sole reason people will be annoyed by these, it's just one of them. There are more like what's already been mentioned - real life is more than violent enough and people play to escape it, killing plots are overdone, et cetrea. The incident I took part in was stupid all around, and I feel stupid for having participated in it now, given it's the sort of RP I tend to avoid for the most part. Fight scenes are really obnoxious to me, especially with one person seemingly intent on 'winning'. I was thoroughly annoyed with the player, who just seemed to want to fulfil that power fantasy, throughout the RP. It's not much of a stretch to see how people might feel that way about true death killers (whose plots crop up every few months it seems).
(EDIT: You people post too freakin' fast! I had to try to post this three times and got the "waaaaait, there's x new posts now!" message interrupting me ;D)
Yeah, one issue that you know there is no way you could actually pull off such highly visible murders in quick succession. Then there is the issue where I hate always being in danger of being killed by whoever has killing fantasies at that instant. Maybe I want to be able to walk through the city for once. But for me it's the storytelling quality that always irks me and makes me want to leave. I can't tell a story if my character is always in hiding and due to settings, there is no reason for my character be back and forth out of the DR constantly.
And on the posting too fast thing... join the club. :p
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For the most part, I'm going to leave my opinions of certain things out, simply because I know I won't be able to voice them as politely as I should, but there are a few things I would like to say.
Threads like this in the past have often been little more than an excuse for players to veil criticism behind a thin veneer of "constructive criticism" and they irk me. Whether a player is a newer player, or an older player, or an ex-player returning, any effort to produce a large scale RP for others to interact in should be appreciated, not slandered and nitpicked. If someone finds an idea to be too farfetched, too violent, too boring, it will do more good to the community and the individual players to make constructive suggestions as to ways that it might be improved upon than it will to say that it's simply a disliked genre and thus not worthy of participation. Too often players come here and tear other players and their ideas to shreds, simply because of personal preference. I find that both inconsiderate and arrogant. It's one thing to think back fondly on past RPs, creative lines and interactions and entirely another to log in with the mindset that anything even remotely resembling unpleasant experiences from the past will automatically be unpleasant. It takes just as much RP skill to develop an event now as it did in the past, perhaps even a bit more because there isn't such a wealth of talented RPers to choose from.
The quality of RP in this game will not improve as a result of pickier players actively avoiding the major plots or threads of complaints on the forum. I would offer the suggestion, instead of avoiding an event, linger on the edges of it, interact with one or two characters you haven't already met, and build new IC and OOC connections.
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Ok, while I understand where this is coming from, here is something that irks me. When did critique become evil? People trying to give constructive criticism can still be taken the wrong way, so what do you do then to give criticism? And why is it more righteous to rip someone to shreds for trying to help than it is to rip them to shreds while trying help? Often counter arguments come off as "My RP is the greatest already so there is absolutely nothing of value you can tell me." I guarantee you, it doesn't matter how nicely you try and help. I've suggested extra nicely and been ripped to shreds for saying anything at all. How is that less arrogant or inconsiderate? In the past, we used to get ripped to shreds(and I do mean ripped to shreds people could be ruthless), take the criticism, and either make an adjustment or take the fuss that came with ignoring it. Not that I'm endorsing that way, but now, I find people take even the slightest, mildest comment as a personal attack, again, no matter how nice or well intentioned the suggestion is.
Also, slandering usually came into the picture between players. Most of the time, people couldn't actually talk about the RP for ripping into each other in personal attacks. There was alway the issue of once someone's ego was pricked, then the war began. However, where it concerns RPs, what about when it exactly mirrored past unpleasant experience? A lot of the reminiscing about old days comes from having logged on, directly running into the very thing that caused an exit before, and then getting even more entrenched in the thinking that the old days were better.
Further, I find that often, people that complain about players being mean or closed minded are guilty of the very thing they criticize the complainers for. They just don't see that they are doing the same thing but from a different perspective. They also seem to not see how they are needlessly provoking, belittling, insulting, ect and contributing to the problem. It really doesn't matter how long or how little you have been playing, an insult is still and insult and people can be needlessly attacked. Often complicating the matter, newer players seem to go right into an argument assuming that the older player has nothing of value to say, because that was the past and none of that is valid now, which typically sets the stage for a future unnecessary confrontation. Close mindedness does not come with a measure in relation to how much time the person has played.
However, all of that aside, I can see keeping one's opinion to themselves, but why should one force themselves to participate in a RP they don't find fun? That's kinda where the breakdown happens between schools of RP. If someone is having fun they aren't very likely to complain. So, where I can see avoiding confrontation by not saying something that can be taken the wrong way, why would someone struggle just to hang on to the periphery of something they inherently don't find fun? For instance, I do not find dealing with who has died, who might die, or came back from the dead, who is maimed, ect. entertaining. There is nothing even remotely appealing about it for me. I may tolerate it a bit if it is a reasonable but very short part (from the perspective of my involvement) of the RP, but it will never be fun to me. I have no reason to hang on the periphery.
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Ok, while I understand where this is coming from, here is something that irks me. When did critique become evil? People trying to give constructive criticism can still be taken the wrong way, so what do you do then to give criticism? And why is it more righteous to rip someone to shreds for trying to help than it is to rip them to shreds while trying help?
That, m'dear, is the difference. When you are trying to help someone, you don't rip them to shreds. Critique and constructive criticism are not synonymous with complaints.
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I really don't believe limitations or style should be imposed on anyone with very few exceptions. For example: a looong time ago the issue of RP sex came up. This was a touchy subject for some. The devs deemed this is not the place for it and I agreed, but some did not. There was a player the other day that suggested that killing of children is crossing the line in an RP. I don't share the same view but I am sure there are people on both sides that have strong feelings about it. What does it amount to? In my opinion (and it is just that, an opinion) anything R rated and below that is not offensive to the race, religion, sexual preference or disability and the like of players is fair game. If it is not openly and purposely offensive it should not be interrupted.
I think this should be a place of free thought that fosters creative scenarios that our characters will react to accordingly. I would also say that large scale RP is only one venue for characters to interact. The smaller character interactions can have just as much impact on characters especially ones new to the world. I like to "adopt" a new comer and expose them to RP. I have done this many times over the years and Indygo has developed many strong reltionships because of it. Giving them small tasks to help them acquire items such as swords or armor and including them in plots that may be developing at the time to help acclimate them to the world. For me it brings great enjoyment but for others it could be quite boring and frustrating. I would implore others to do the same from time to time (not suggesting I am the only one that does this).
As far as the larger RPs having a trickle down impact, I could not agree more. However there should be some boudaries in certain cases. I would like to use the dwarven war against dwarvesbane for an example. The war against the dwarves was the due to a hate of them by Drahlian. The lead up to the war, the conflict and the aftermath spun off many many story lines. Those that supported the dwarves, the friends of those involved, the relationships that came of it and on and on... But war was not allowed within the walls of Hydlaa among a few other safe places as to not disturb others and go against the settings of the guards maintaining order. If people wanted to witness the fighting they could do so but were not forced to dodge arrows while trying to sell weapons in the plaza or having a drink at Kada's. This was one of the most successful RP stories I have seen in all the time I have been in this game. It was a violent hateful plot but everyone involved knew the boundaries and followed them for the most part and the ones that didnt follow were quickly corrected. The ones that did not want to fight weren't forced into the violence but could interact in other ways be it support or opposition to the fighting.
I think the pretense that violent or evil plots are bad RP is inaccurate. RP is what you make it. But I do think for the respect of the characters that do not want to be witness to the violence or the evil and the like there should be some boundaries. I have always felt that Kada's should be a safe zone from zombies, poison, vampires, dragons, fist fights etc. I think most other heavily used places should be excluded such as harnquist's but its my opinion. The land is vast there are plenty of places to play out these types of things without shoving them in the face of captives trying to engage in their own form of RP. I think most of us would agree that is fair. I thnk above all we should be concious of the others trying to have some fun without stepping on toes. There is nothing more frustrating as having a little dice game in the corner downstairs at Kada's just to have a bunch of craziness bust in the door and intrude on what others are doing. The only limit I would put on RP is to not force it on others in such a way.
But what do I know...
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In my opinion (and it is just that, an opinion) anything R rated and below that is not offensive to the race, religion, sexual preference or disability and the like of players is fair game. If it is not openly and purposely offensive it should not be interrupted.
I just want to point out that in the US, killing children isn't allowed even in rated M (17+) video games. That's why in unmodded versions of games like Skyrim and Fallout the children are invincible.
And if I remember correctly, PlaneShift content is supposed to be PG-13 level.
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That, m'dear, is the difference. When you are trying to help someone, you don't rip them to shreds. Critique and constructive criticism are not synonymous with complaints.
True but that's not the point I'm making. I'm addressing the double standard. Nobody condemns the person that received nice criticism but responded with insults and ripping the other person to shreds. It's always one sided. It always boils down to "How dare you say something!" Nobody receives praise all the time, but when someone speaks up, however nicely, they get automatically tarred with a negative brush and shouted down. That's not in the least bit nice and has also caused just as much trouble whether it is ever called out or not. I think we should be nice when giving criticism or making suggestions, but people shouldn't lecture on being nice if they aren't going to hold the standard up equally. It's useless if it is not equal.
Also, that doesn't address my earlier question about hanging on the periphery.
In my opinion (and it is just that, an opinion) anything R rated and below that is not offensive to the race, religion, sexual preference or disability and the like of players is fair game. If it is not openly and purposely offensive it should not be interrupted.
I just want to point out that in the US, killing children isn't allowed even in rated M (17+) video games. That's why in unmodded versions of games like Skyrim and Fallout the children are invincible.
And if I remember correctly, PlaneShift content is supposed to be PG-13 level.
Yeah I agree with that player and tman... That really is entirely too far and it is outside of PS's range. I'm really of the opinion that children should be off limits, you can make your point without going there.
Also, sorry Indy but I have to put this out there. No one that complained has said that "evil" RP is bad RP however, now that it is said, here comes the trouble. This always sets the stage for someone attributing that comment to a complainer, setting up a straw argument, then crusading against the complainers simply because they couldn't be bothered to actually pay attention to the actual complaints. Which I might add is dismissing the person trying to share a perspective which is not showing the consideration that that same person would probably expect to get in return. It also means there is no chance that a reasonable compromise can be reached since there are already closed ears at that point.
Making a hasty assumption of what was said without reading it with the intent of understanding or just restating what was said in a hasty way that can become a point of contention has created so many problems since people will often skip the actual complaint and read the hasty approximation instead. Skimming and using the argument from the post of someone on the other side of the debate often sets up trouble when people get their righteous ire going about something that wasn't even said by the people with complaints. It causes unnecessary friction because each successive person takes it farther and farther from the actual complaint. Then, it often derails into bickering as the people complaining spend even more time restating what they actually said while the people not actually paying attention, keep not paying attention, and and get self righteous in their defense against something that came from a either a different group or something that was never even complained about.
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For my context, the RP is for the purpose of telling the story of Yliakum even more so than getting people to interact. We create a dynamic and compelling world even if not everyone directly interacts with each other. It's like reading a book to me. But each little story needs to be coherent to tell a consistent story across the world, so everyone needs a similar standard to work off of to tie everything together.
I don't agree with the need to have RPing standards since it's unfair to force a method onto someone. What if the devs or GMs would dictate RP standards? I think the players would rightly complain about that. The players should also avoid dictating the standards to other players for the same reasons.
Speaking about the RPing contents (which is a totally different matter) I think we should avoid playing specific RP unless all the players involved OCCly agree and the play is done in a reserved in game place (where people unwilling to deal with such contents are not forced to have them in the main chat).
An example of such contents may be:
- mature and sexual contents;
- child murders;
- any contents you wouldn't let you little sister/brother/son to deal with.
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Also, sorry Indy but I have to put this out there. No one that complained has said that "evil" RP is bad RP however, now that it is said, here comes the trouble. This always sets the stage for someone attributing that comment to a complainer, setting up a straw argument, then crusading against the complainers simply because they couldn't be bothered to actually pay attention to the actual complaints.
What I was referring to when I said that is this:
Last but not least...the endless killing and violence in PS.
Actually I don't have much to say there. All examples I have seen of this in PS are very poorly done and plain boring. In most cases it's just violence for the fun of it. But from the looks of it that's what players want so all my (and others) efforts in the past to make baddies more realistic seem to have failed. But not really a big deal to ignore it in game
So I will redact my above to say:
I think the pretense that violent or evil plots is poor RP is inaccurate.
I have read every word of every comment and am not making hasty assumptions. I agree this type of RP seems to be over done, but I would also agree historically it is very popular. The question is what can we do as players that obviously have a love for role play do to change the culture outside of beating the hell out of it on the forums? I see a lot of discussion here about what not to do but not many solutions. I guess thats where I am coming from.
As far as the child killing comment, I would never say I am a moral authority. Just making the point that I can do with or without it but at what point do we try to put limits on what we can and cannot do? I would say that hunger games seemed to do pretty well with that plot...
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As far as the child killing comment, I would never say I am a moral authority. Just making the point that I can do with or without it but at what point do we try to put limits on what we can and cannot do? I would say that hunger games seemed to do pretty well with that plot...
Indygo we don't need moral authorities we just need common sense. Hunger games is a book you can decide to read or not to read if you don't like the topic. When something gets printed in your main chat I would say it's to late to avoid it, that's why I think it's common sense to play more mature contents in places (in-game) where people doesn't happen to hear that if they don't want to and to be sure the player we are playing with those scenes are fine with them (OOCly).
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I don't agree with the need to have RPing standards since it's unfair to force a method onto someone. What if the devs or GMs would dictate RP standards? I think the players would rightly complain about that. The players should also avoid dictating the standards to other players for the same reasons.
Method is not the issue with a standard. All settings do is create a standard that everyone can build off of. So that if someone want to RP a Vulcan running through PS nerve pinching everyone in sight, there is a common baseline that says they don't even exists. Not killing someone without getting their consent is a standard, it helps maintain the peace between players by requiring a certain amount of courtesy. Standards are everywhere, they are not some bad force of creativity stiffing, its a means for giving a common ground to prevent chaos. PS just has too many competing standards right now to be of use, and settings is neither complete enough nor coherent enough to provide the unifying element on its own.
Not to mention, I know the general approach works as that was the very point I made back in this post (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=40979.msg460450#msg460450).
What I was referring to when I said that is this:
Last but not least...the endless killing and violence in PS.
Actually I don't have much to say there. All examples I have seen of this in PS are very poorly done and plain boring. In most cases it's just violence for the fun of it. But from the looks of it that's what players want so all my (and others) efforts in the past to make baddies more realistic seem to have failed. But not really a big deal to ignore it in game
So I will redact my above to say:
I think the pretense that violent or evil plots is poor RP is inaccurate.
Aiwendil was a part of the Outlaws guild that killed people Indy, that is a hasty approximation of what he said. I know for a fact he doesn't have a problem with those RPs. As he said in that quote, the "examples in PS" he's been seeing are poor not that every evil RP ever is poor. And "His and other efforts" to make baddies less facepalm worthy have failed... You have to be a baddie doing baddie things for that sentence to make sense. ;)
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Just to pop my head in and note, that were one to dig deeper and read the description, the child wasn't killed.
Any-wheys....
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I would still feel better to stay away from it even looking like a child was killed. :-\
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Of course. Within the first 5 minutes of ME3, a child is implied to be murdered - just out of curiosity, where do you all stand on that, also? Perhaps not in regard to this situation, per se, but as the video game rules in general.
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*Grumbles* This is why I dont get involved in these conversations...
Look, dont be distracted by the dead children comment. You are missing the point. I am not advocating for baby killing. What I am saying is we start saying "this shouldn't be allowed and that shouldn't be allowed" where does it end. Let me give you an example: Indygo likes to play gambling games in Kada's. It can be intrusive due to dice rolling frequently. I would say it is an appropriate venue for him to do this, however there are some people that may have an OOC moral opposition to it. Should that not be allowed? I could give other examples as well but I will spare you the monotony.
Please don't miss my point by the content of the comment.
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I'm not sure what the first 5 mins of ME3 actually entails but, it's one thing if it is not targeted at the child. If you blow a whole planet up, chances are you have killed a child. Not good, but it's not as disturbing because it isn't targeted at children specifically. You just really can't help but to kill a child in that context. However, something that is killing a child and is definitely targeted at the child, say games where you can kill the children NPCs individually, that is really too much.
One, children should be protected and the world is screwed up enough without having to toss in targeting children. Two, there already seems to be an uptick of violence against children in RL which is disturbing and I really don't think it has a place also in realities that we have full control over. It's just one of those preserving our humanity issues that I think is important. There are any number of creative ways to show a character is a complete monster, that are still disturbing, but are at least not preying on the extreme vulnerability of children. I might also add that this border doesn't only affect killing children but that is a different discussion entirely.
What I am saying is we start saying "this shouldn't be allowed and that shouldn't be allowed" where does it end.
That's what the rough consensus is for Indy... the exact point of it. Finding a reasonable and comfortable border for everyone. The problem is people putting the brakes on the standard thing's progress due to individuals insisting on only getting their way. That also includes people that won't allow it to go forward due to the fact that they aren't willing to risk giving up something so that others can be accommodated. Kinda can't compromise without being at least open to the possibility that you might have to make a slight adjustment.
But PS is way to big as it is, I guarantee you that even if you do have to move, there is somewhere for people to go. ;) Not so much that I think there is an issue with dice in the tavern but really, if you had to move to the place where Loren Chama hangs out by the plaza, it wouldn't be such a great burden to allow other people a chance to be comfortable as well. That being said, I doubt most people will complain about reasonable stuff like gambling in the tavern.
I might also stick out that you agree to be limited every time you play a game. Doesn't matter if it is a space game that doesn't let you go planet side, a medieval fantasy game that doesn't let you go into space/around the entire world/*cough* to the surface, or a horror game that never lets yo be completely safe at some point, a timed game that doesn't let you sit take time and plan your next move, etc... it goes on an on. It's just a wee bit of paranoia that leads to the typical cry of "but someone might stop me from doing something that is not really that unreasonable." Have a little faith in your fellow player that they can see where most common sense boundaries will lie. Especially since the whole process is rarely allowed to even get that far.
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That actually illustrates several points really well, thank you Illysia!
The main one, as you mentioned, being 'disturbing' and the level of it. Culturally, America (And other westernized cultures) are disturbed easily by some things, and very jaded towards others. This is different in other parts of the world, where our views on things would be horrifying to these other people.
Now as far as the uptick in violence, yes, I completely agree. That illustrates the cultural trend that's going on also. However, there's also stricter measures being put in place, ensuring that said crimes do not go unpunished. This, in turn, will offset the violence and create a steady minimum (is the hope).
Now, for the ME3 illustration, that simply served to highlight the whole thing. Of course the child is graphically illustrated as a key target during an "alien attack", one that is aimed to wipe out humanity, in a "Senseless, violent, and brutal" attack. However, ME3 is also lauded as a masterpiece of video gaming, both in storytelling, heart, and scope (that is another topic, however. Sorry for the rabbit trail.) The main point of this paragraph is that it can be a key 'tear jerker', or heartfelt moment. Of course, doubtless, there were players of ME3 that hated that inclusion, and it made them queezy. Perhaps those in other cultures didn't mind, or hated it even more. Culture =/= Opinion
Lastly, which again is a very....sidesbased topic, is that which Indygo and Illysia bring up so well. That of "Where does it start? Where does it stop?".
In short, PlaneShift is meant to be a player-controlled world within the settings, with minimal GM interaction. Optimally, this means a heightened realism (with a pg-13 setting). However, without fail there will always rise the issue of 'action being forced upon people'. Sad but true.
In 'RL', let's say (don't take out of context, of course), we as humans have action forced upon us at every turn.
In PS, we do not wish this to happen at times. We claim to want our characters to evolve due to outside influence, but we sometimes don't live up to that claim.
The reason boils down to personal preference, which is absolutely ok. We can argue moral ground and other points for as long as the sun'll hang in the sky, but that's honestly what it comes down to. Semantics include settings, ps dev requests, etc., but preference will always be king.
That being said, I respect everyone's preferences. The main thing to getting along in PS will be that ability, respecting others preferences. That means, as Tessra posted earlier, giving and taking in equal amount. There'll be things you don't like, and things others don't like. Always will be.
Illysia makes an excellent point when she says to have faith in your fellow player. Always assume the best, and these debates may never happen!
As always, I commend those with open minds who have posted here, which is everyone. Thanks for your time, and your willingness to dance around words. It's great seeing this civil of a discussion on such sensitive topics.
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Method is not the issue with a standard. All settings do is create a standard that everyone can build off of. So that if someone want to RP a Vulcan running through PS nerve pinching everyone in sight, there is a common baseline that says they don't even exists. Not killing someone without getting their consent is a standard, it helps maintain the peace between players by requiring a certain amount of courtesy. Standards are everywhere, they are not some bad force of creativity stiffing, its a means for giving a common ground to prevent chaos. PS just has too many competing standards right now to be of use, and settings is neither complete enough nor coherent enough to provide the unifying element on its own.
Not killing someone without getting their consent is NOT roleplay a standard, it is a engine or rules standard since you can by no means challenge an unwilling player.
The settings can be seen as a RP standardization but I'm afraid you are completely missing my point since I was speaking about this king of unnecessary standards:
I'm not sure what everyone else's impression was, but my impression of the standard was that you:
1. Never preplan. It's considered bad form
2. Create a character that is distinct in behavior. You can have 20 mages if you still tell them apart by how they act. Same for barflys... ;D
3. Don't godmod. It's rude.
4. Don't do anything that wouldn't make sense in the context of the RPs going on around you. You are a section of the story, not the story.
5. If you see a character, that you don't recognize, that seems to follow this standard, chances are, it's just the alt of someone you already know of or RP with.
Many of the above standards are common sense and fair but not really necessary.
*Grumbles* This is why I dont get involved in these conversations...
Let me give you an example: Indygo likes to play gambling games in Kada's. It can be intrusive due to dice rolling frequently. I would say it is an appropriate venue for him to do this, however there are some people that may have an OOC moral opposition to it. Should that not be allowed?
Indygo I think we must let ourselves to be guided by common sense. Rules and laws draw lines between what is legit and what's not and I think we don't really want rules to tell us what to RP or not to RP. In the specific case RP gambling is perfectly legit.
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I'm actually pretty ok with cutting back across the board if it allows other people to play comfortably. For instance, many Europeans complain about Americans complaining about sex but will allow all kinds of horrible violence. I'm all for curtailing both and limiting what gets out into main in public places.
Also, on the tear jerker thing, I personally don't like people manipulating my feelings, but that is a personal preference. I hate it even when Disney does it. I want to come to my own conclusion on what to feel without a ton of "leading" my reaction. It's one thing if it is just a story it's another if it essentially godmodding your feelings like Disney does. If you doubt me, see how many Disney movies you can watch without there being a "tear jerker" moment to create sympathy.
Also, I never got the impression that a player created world completely leaves out the possibility of having boundaries. Or letting GMs be a part, they are players too actually. For instance, there was a bout of RPs that not only involved rape but not everyone involved was completely ok with how it was going down. If people had been of the opinion that had some say in where the boundaries were and that they we're in no way forced to bend their characters out of character to accommodate the RP, I think that whole thing would have gone down differently. Although, in my opinion, there is absolutely no reason to go there at all. You can't police what people do in group or tell but especially once it starts spilling outside of those areas I think it shouldn't happen.
Not killing someone without getting their consent is NOT roleplay a standard, it is a engine or rules standard since you can by no means challenge an unwilling player.
Camp banished... the reason for RP standards: it does little good to rely only on the engine to determine what you can and can't do. That's the point of RP.
The settings can be seen as a RP standardization but I'm afraid you are completely missing my point since I was speaking about this king of unnecessary standards:
I'm not sure what everyone else's impression was, but my impression of the standard was that you:
1. Never preplan. It's considered bad form
2. Create a character that is distinct in behavior. You can have 20 mages if you still tell them apart by how they act. Same for barflys... ;D
3. Don't godmod. It's rude.
4. Don't do anything that wouldn't make sense in the context of the RPs going on around you. You are a section of the story, not the story.
5. If you see a character, that you don't recognize, that seems to follow this standard, chances are, it's just the alt of someone you already know of or RP with.
Many of the above standards are common sense and fair but not really necessary.
There should be enough spoofs, quotes, ect poking at how uncommon common sense is... especially on the internet. So I won't bother going into how necessary it is to state common sense stuff. This forum should be a cautionary tale about such things in it's own right. And I'm just curious, what is actually wrong with agreeing to do those things? Where is it a great limit on freedom to say we have these boundaries? It's only a problem if you intend to break them.
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I think what Eon meant is it's "Good RP practice to ask someone if they want to die or not, RP based", but you can't actually force somebody to die. That's game-engine based. Sure, you can jump on somebody and play out you're stabbing them with a knife, but who's to say they won't ignore you?
Just good RP practice, I think :p
And as far as avoiding disney/tear jerk/forced emotions, etc., that's again just preference
As far as your 'letting others play comfortably' :/
You can't please both sides ('both sides' not a literal term, actually meaning everyone here, sorry). The best thing is to not cater (to a point, there are already rules established), and let the players choose what to do. If a 10 year old kid came on and his momma told us not to let anything bad happen, I would't cut back across the board to please him. Same with anyone else. I respect and like you, but I won't cut back across the board to please you. I'll let you deal with it as a grown adult would, which means that:
despite outwards influences, you'll go on with your life.
despite things you can't control, you'll persevere
Yeah, sure, I'll be nice about it, but if I were to cut back, it'd be no different than you controlling my RP because of a statute of your dislikes. Sure, I can cater to them to a point, but you can cater to mine also! Give/Take.
Despite outward influences on my life, I'll go on
despite things I can't control, I'll persevere.
/me am adult. I'll make do ;)
P.S.
People get all sorts of poopoo about lack of control in other games too, don't sweat. Being out of control is a very uncomfortable feeling in any situation. It also helps us realize our humanity, and creates a new outlook on life, I think. Not even my so-presumed "serial killer" has any semblance of control. It's his motive to gain it, sure, but who's to say someone won't end him? He can't stop that. A lot of people live and die trying to gain control over every aspect of their lives, why can't PS characters do that too? (personal opinion, gut as you please)
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I suppose I can understand it, I just don't agree. I'm not so insistent on having my way that I'm going to do "my RP" around others no matter what. That's why even though I preferred to keep commotion in the Stonehead down, I let it be used as a makeshift hospital when people were injured in another more violent RP. Most of the time I had shut down the start of any major upheaval before it got started. However, that time it was a concession to other people and their playing style. And it wasn't too far outside the range of what I could deal with.
But overall, that is why I am in Amdeneir. The only way I can accommodate the fact that people want constant killing and brutal killings is to leave the area. I'm no longer interesting in helping people to come to a different way of handling it by fussing at them. Everyone can ultimately do what they want if they aren't willing to come to a compromise. I make explanations for those that it might help to at least understand the perspective and otherwise I move on. I've wasted enough effort trying to change things in this game. It's never worked for me in the past.
Side note:
From Merriam Webster Dictionary
Standard: : something established by authority, custom, or general consent as a model or example
Not totalitarian rule, not set in stone. In the past it was set by custom, but if people are still so paranoid that the mind police will come and lock them away for ever and ever if they just try to come to a simple consensus then oh well. I really don't have the energy to fight that battle anymore.
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Last but not least...the endless killing and violence in PS.
Actually I don't have much to say there. All examples I have seen of this in PS are very poorly done and plain boring. In most cases it's just violence for the fun of it. But from the looks of it that's what players want so all my (and others) efforts in the past to make baddies more realistic seem to have failed. But not really a big deal to ignore it in game
So I will redact my above to say:
I think the pretense that violent or evil plots is poor RP is inaccurate.
As I never said anything like that I take Indygo's statement in general pointing out that evil plots are not bad RP what I hope we all agree on.
I don't agree with the need to have RPing standards since it's unfair to force a method onto someone. What if the devs or GMs would dictate RP standards? I think the players would rightly complain about that. The players should also avoid dictating the standards to other players for the same reasons.
Ahm...GMs/the PS team dictates the standard already to some extend...Erotic/Sexual RP is forbidden.
I just want to point out that in the US, killing children isn't allowed even in rated M (17+) video games. That's why in unmodded versions of games like Skyrim and Fallout the children are invincible.
Hunger games is a book you can decide to read or not to read if you don't like the topic. When something gets printed in your main chat I would say it's to late to avoid it, that's why I think it's common sense to play more mature contents in places (in-game) where people doesn't happen to hear that if they don't want to and to be sure the player we are playing with those scenes are fine with them (OOCly).
This! If someone wants to do violent RPs there is nothing wrong with it as long as all involved agree. My problem starts as soon as people are exposed to it who didn't agree. So if you want to kill/torture during RPs do it in group, don't place any books with violent descriptions at random locations (Or if you need for the RP place books that only contain an OOC note like "This is for the xxx RP. This RP contains some violence so if you want to read what it is about visit <some-web-page-with-the-actual-content>."), restrain yourself from posting the violent scenes in the forum and most important, make sure that everyone involved is an adult.
Not killing someone without getting their consent is NOT roleplay a standard, it is a engine or rules standard since you can by no means challenge an unwilling player.
Ahm, wasn't this about RPs? Last I checked there weren't any mechanics that prevent someone from killing anyone else in a RP. Not that don't agree with you that it's a standard to not do it without consent. I just mean it's often not possible to transfer the game-mechanic limitations to RPs.
I'm actually pretty ok with cutting back across the board if it allows other people to play comfortably. For instance, many Europeans complain about Americans complaining about sex but will allow all kinds of horrible violence. I'm all for curtailing both and limiting what gets out into main in public places.
Oh yes... (http://satwcomic.com/anything-but-that)People complain about two guys kissing in main but are fine with all kinds of violence. In fact I think the violence stuff is even worse...sexual RPs used to take place in group chat but violence is celebrated in main. ;)
You can't police what people do in group or tell but especially once it starts spilling outside of those areas I think it shouldn't happen.
Well, actually that is not true. Since /report doesn't notify the target anymore GMs can read group chat without anyone knowing. The question is of course if anyone wants this kind of "monitoring". But as far as I know it was already done to ban sexual RPs in the past also from groups.
Edit: damn smilies again
Edit2:
In the end I agree with all people that forbidding anything in RP is usually a bad idea. That is true for violent RPs as well as for sexual RPs. But I don't agree that standards making sure only those are exposed to these topics who really want are a bad idea also.
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All excellent suggestions and very well thought out!
And Illysia, I just do want you to know your suggestions and input do not go unheeded, at least with me. I'm always open to constructive criticism and ways to improve my RP, which you've offered. Your lessons will be taken and heeded, and hopefully PS will improve as a whole because of them.
The same goes with yours, Aiwendil! I appreciate the suggestions on how to help others enjoy this game, as that's what it's all about. Common sense and dignity are always appreciated.
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Thank you Cairn, that is far more than I would even ask considering past experience. But it is a pleasant difference.
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Within the first 5 minutes of ME3, a child is implied to be murdered
The key word here is implied. It implies that the child is killed. In Assassins Creed 2, Ezios little brother is implied to be hanged. There are dozens of examples of scenes like this. But it is never shown. The dead body of the dead child is never displayed or described. And this is in games that are rated M (17+).
The one exception I can think of is in CoD Modern Warfare 3, there is a scene in which a young girl is walking with her parents and a car bomb goes off right next to them. The explosion is too quick for you to see anything graphic, but in all of the video games I've played in my life (a lot) this is the closest thing to showing a child's death that I've ever seen. What's interesting is that immediately before this scene, a warning appears on the screen saying that the following content is highly disturbing, and it gives the player the option to skip it. In a game that's already rated M, they put a warning before scenes like this. That should tell you something.
Now personally, I've played too many video games to be disturbed by anything I've seen or heard in PS. But for a game in which the content is supposed to be PG-13, violence against children is just too far to be done publicly. If this were done in a guild hall, or a sparsely populated area, that's fine. But on the streets of the capital city is another thing entirely.
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Well, I'll be derned if it ain't stirring things up.
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Camp banished... the reason for RP standards: it does little good to rely only on the engine to determine what you can and can't do. That's the point of RP.
Camp banished is a PVP area and so killing there is perfectly legit (from the game point of view). if a players wants to avoid being attacked should not go there (we have very few pvp areas it's not a big constrain). Also attacking or not someone in camp banished is an IC action and so it is RP. Asking before attacking OOC is courtesy but is not really needed in PVP areas.
There should be enough spoofs, quotes, ect poking at how uncommon common sense is... especially on the internet. So I won't bother going into how necessary it is to state common sense stuff. This forum should be a cautionary tale about such things in it's own right. And I'm just curious, what is actually wrong with agreeing to do those things? Where is it a great limit on freedom to say we have these boundaries? It's only a problem if you intend to break them.
If there's no point in breaking a rule so there's no point in having that rule at all.
Illysia while I agree with many of the rp "rules" you stated it's far too common in my opinion and experience to find moral authorities ready to tell you what is 'good' RP or what is not good RP, most of the time they are at least partly wrong. I would really like to avoid such cliché, and avoid the need to have rules set in stone which are by no means necessary. Live and let live someone would say.
While it's true "common sense" is personal, it's also true that the willingness to find an agreement and respect the other players is the best way to find a common ground and solves the issue. No rule can fully address the above in every case and in every circumstances. This is why I don't feel like it's truly needed to have RP rules.
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Camp banished... the reason for RP standards: it does little good to rely only on the engine to determine what you can and can't do. That's the point of RP.
Camp banished is a PVP area and so killing there is perfectly legit (from the game point of view). if a players wants to avoid being attacked should not go there (we have very few pvp areas it's not a big constrain). Also attacking or not someone in camp banished is an IC action and so it is RP. Asking before attacking OOC is courtesy but is not really needed in PVP areas.
Considering that not every player necessarily knows that that area is open PvP, where even the arena isn't, I'd disagree. It is needed because it is still a courtesy and still could be abused. This is kinda one of those breaks between mechanics and RP. And no, not every action within an RPG is the same as RPing simply because it was done in game. This is actually another reason for standards. I guarantee you that most people in all MMORPGs are doing actions that are allowed by the engine; however, most do not consider themselves role playing and several would actually be offended if you implied that they were. This proves my point about needing standards.
There should be enough spoofs, quotes, ect poking at how uncommon common sense is... especially on the internet. So I won't bother going into how necessary it is to state common sense stuff. This forum should be a cautionary tale about such things in it's own right. And I'm just curious, what is actually wrong with agreeing to do those things? Where is it a great limit on freedom to say we have these boundaries? It's only a problem if you intend to break them.
If there's no point in breaking a rule so there's no point in having that rule at all.
Illysia while I agree with many of the rp "rules" you stated it's far too common in my opinion and experience to find moral authorities ready to tell you what is 'good' RP or what is not good RP, most of the time they are at least partly wrong. I would really like to avoid such cliché, and avoid the need to have rules set in stone which are by no means necessary. Live and let live someone would say.
While it's true "common sense" is personal, it's also true that the willingness to find an agreement and respect the other players is the best way to find a common ground and solves the issue. No rule can fully address the above in every case and in every circumstances. This is why I don't feel like it's truly needed to have RP rules.
I'm not sure what you mean since every rule is broken at some point whether there is a need to break it or not. Common sense is not common was the point I was getting at. You can't count on people to always use common sense because it's supposed to be common. That's just basic human nature....
And here is my usual complaint within these arguments. Stop worrying so much that someone will tell you that your RP is bad. I doubt most people would bother to jump on you even if they did think it. And to be fair, I can tell you from experience that it is not the end of the world. It's this paranoia that "I will be shunned for 'BAD RP!' " *dun dun duuuuun* that generally drives the resistance against this idea. Further, no one advocated a "moral authority" it was only an off handed, qualifying comment made by Indygo while he said he was not doing that. Also, nothing is set in stone so that is another comment I'm not sure where it is coming from. I'm sorry but most of these arguments against a standard have little to do with what I had actually proposed.
There have never ever.... EVER been RP rules in this game... EVER. What I am actually talking is a common understanding among players like there used to be among most RPers in this game. I guarantee you, you will never find that bulleted list I gave anywhere in the forum, on the official site, on any guild site, or anywhere in game. But I also guarantee you that a lot of older players from at least 2005-2008 will still recognize it. I have say that if people who resist the idea stop inventing nightmares of the RP secret police carrying them off in the night, they would feel much better about the idea.
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Oh, camp banish again...just let it be, it was discussed countless (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=33807) times (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=33772) already (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34261) before (And of course half of the posts in those discussions were deleted but who is still really surprised by this on these forums). All players who had a problem with it just left the game..no point anymore to question how a limited PvP area can be IC by any means. You talk with people here that think quests are IC. ;)
And don't get in the rules discussion Illysia..always the same. Someone suggests some general RP hints, others mistake it as a restriction of their freedom and fight it with an irrational furry only to suggest it themselves two years later. But why do I tell you..you know how it works.
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Yeah, I know how these arguments usually go. But I don't think the people arguing here mean any harm or are just being a pain, so I bother to explain.
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Theory's all it is, really. Eon is right and Illy and Aiw are right, too. It's just rationalization of said theory and application, so the only recommendation worth giving is to be genuinely respectful of it all.
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Actually both theories are tested and the results from both are not equal. There is being nice and then there is ignoring outcomes. ;) However, this is not important enough to try and push.
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"Both not equal" is opinion. I agree, but perhaps not equalists?
To help: Aiwendil mentioned irrational fury, and is correct. Most people may take it as a restriction of the absolute freedom that an RP game can offer. Because a '2nd' world does offer that, but without legal limitations: one can kill, steal, commit criminal acts without repercussion to their actual physical self. People can commit sexual acts, deviance, or other things that the morality of society would object to, but in an RP game are repercussionless save to a few pixels. That being said, there will always be players that champion absolute freedom to RP.
BUT!
I don't condone it. I do, in a sense, I suppose, because once you start sanctioning a 2nd world through OOC rules, it becomes less and less of a realistic world. But in reality, we also have to be mindful, as mentioned by Illysia and Aiwendil, of the consequences to the other pixels and to the players behind them. It's delicacy at its finest, because we risk alienation or in more drastic cases ridding ourselves of the players we offend. Also, and do note; we're still bound by society, OOCly. We're better served as Illysia states, 'being nice', rather than ignoring the outcome. Of course
a.) Ignoring the outcome (as you coined) = RP freedom,
but -
b.) Being nice (more wordily I shall assume we both mean the respect of others preferences and the working towards less criminal tendencies as a whole, as a way to improve PS's settingsphere to create a more 'norm' society as it should be reflected.) preserves sanity, prevents anarchy, and gives a solid ground for variety of RP.
Doubtless, we shall be inundated with interpretations. But as a whole, I'm glad for these threads, even if they pop up at least once a year, because 7 years ago I stumbled across one, and reading the great opinions and realizations of players such as ourselves provided a solid foundation for me, I would like to believe.
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What? Being respectful doesn't mean always agreeing or ignoring difference. ;D
Edit: Thank you for completely changing your post Cairn and making this one completely not go to anything now. :P
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Of course, see my edit :thumbup:
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*sighs*
But in reality, we also have to be mindful, as mentioned by Illysia and Aiwendil, of the consequences to the other pixels and to the players behind them.
I know i might sounded a bit like this but this isn't really my main concern. Keep plots that might offend other players OOCly away from them but still feel free to do them with player that don't mind.
...People can commit sexual acts...
No you can't, it's forbidden in PS.
...and the working towards less criminal tendencies as a whole,...
I really hope that's not Illysia's intention. ;)
My main concern is and was always that the amount of murder/torture plots turned Yliakum into a parody of a RP world. And it doesn't matter anymore if a plot is well or poorly done...every new such plot just makes the whole situtation worse.
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No you can't, it's forbidden in PS.
Of course - just different post context, not a PS reference per se.
" into a parody of a RP world. etc. "
Point of my post :P
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Ok, just a reminder... again, No one complaining ever said to enforce "rules". An understanding is a completely different beast. Even I didn't say in, most cases, to completely prevent certain types of RP, despite my extreme personal objection, as long as they are out of the way. I have better things to do then policing. ;) That out of the way.
Not equal is less opinion. Opinion is saying which is the more valid perspective, x =/ y is just straight logic.
However, I challenge the notion of players seeking a more realistic world since that is often the term used but the execution is directly contradictory. For instance, the most simple execution for a more realistic world is: Go outside! :P It has better graphics even if the progression system is bad. ;)
However, we, as societies in general, turn more and more to virtual reality since we actually don't actually want "real". Let's look at an example, we have, in most cases, at least minimal physics mimicking the real world.... that is, until we don't. Characters in games can often make outrageous jumps, fly without wings or other apparatus, use magic to shape or destroy the world in way that may or may not even be possible in real life, ect... And typically, it is this break from reality that is more popular. Why? Because we don't want "real." Real is confining, real is mundane, real keeps us bound to that which we felt the need to leave. In fact, the more rules you add, the more "real" the world becomes and the less popular it becomes.
The truth of the matter is, we typically run back to "real" as either an explanatory short hand or an attempt at adding the legitimacy of "the established" to our argument, but in all actuality, "real" is the last thing everyone is after. :P However, when I argue certain points, my issue is less the real and more the logical. Logic being that which follows directly after the thing preceding. For instance, if it looks like people are always dying in a city, the thing that logically follows is that others will avoid it to prevent dying. Would you, the player, go to a city of knife wielding serial killers, in real life, for coffee just because the city happened to be there? The fact that this is a game does not inherently negate logic. This is the point I think Aiwendil is making as well.
When I argue for a standard, I argue for it on the basis that not having that common ground leads to the kind of chaos that isn't conducive for cohesive roleplay. It sets the prime growing conditions for RP cliques, constant struggles between groups of RPers, and stories that exist totally aside from each other... the anti community if you will.
An RP standard doesn't have to have a large impact on RP content because RP content is almost limitless. All it says is that if you are all playing paladin like character's here is a common thread for you all to go on to help your RPs stay close to the same page. Then you won't have to ignore each other to reconcile each other's story if you cross paths. When you have a larger sense of community, you will find completely separate and different stories intersect each other far more often, as has already been brought up elsewhere when talking about Telnavi. When there is no standard, you end up putting round pegs into square slots every time because each interpretation leads to different kinds of incompatible realizations. Simply put, several writers won't write a coherent story if they don't have an understanding among themselves.
The bigger problem is a lack of imagination. If you can't stretch a little then yes, a standard threatens to shrink your RP, but that is a problem with a lack of creativity, not the standard being over bearing. And it will become problematic in connection with many issues, not just in having a standard. This is why I regularly advocate trying to stretch out of cookie cutter, prefab RP roles.
...and the working towards less criminal tendencies as a whole,...
I really hope that's not Illysia's intention. ;)
I would round up you delinquents if I could but I gave up on that years ago. ;D However, remember the Stonehead Aiwe. You know how I deal with criminal tendencies. ;)
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Would you, the player, go to a city of knife wielding serial killers, in real life, for coffee just because the city happened to be there? The fact that this is a game does not inherently negate logic. This is the point I think Aiwendil is making as well.
Yep.
I would round up you delinquents if I could but I gave up on that years ago. ;D However, remember the Stonehead Aiwe. You know how I deal with criminal tendencies. ;)
As far as I remember Aiwendil was always a welcomed guest in the SH...you couldn't be that strict about criminals. ;)
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Oh you are safe as long as you don't do anything. :innocent:
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However, we, as societies in general, turn more and more to virtual reality since we actually don't actually want "real". Let's look at an example, we have, in most cases, at least minimal physics mimicking the real world.... that is, until we don't. Characters in games can often make outrageous jumps, fly without wings or other apparatus, use magic to shape or destroy the world in way that may or may not even be possible in real life, ect... And typically, it is this break from reality that is more popular. Why? Because we don't want "real." Real is confining, real is mundane, real keeps us bound to that which we felt the need to leave. In fact, the more rules you add, the more "real" the world becomes and the less popular it becomes.
The truth of the matter is, we typically run back to "real" as either an explanatory short hand or an attempt at adding the legitimacy of "the established" to our argument, but in all actuality, "real" is the last thing everyone is after. :P However, when I argue certain points, my issue is less the real and more the logical. Logic being that which follows directly after the thing preceding. For instance, if it looks like people are always dying in a city, the thing that logically follows is that others will avoid it to prevent dying. Would you, the player, go to a city of knife wielding serial killers, in real life, for coffee just because the city happened to be there? The fact that this is a game does not inherently negate logic. This is the point I think Aiwendil is making as well.
I agree, a virtual world must give the 'feelings' of reality then lets the players cross the boundaries: that's where the fun begins ;D
Like I said before the murders/plague plots are not my favourite and while I don't skew them at all I used to spend a lot of my time outside hydlaa, in the wilderness or in Gugrontid. And this was a proof of Illisya's point.
When I argue for a standard, I argue for it on the basis that not having that common ground leads to the kind of chaos that isn't conducive for cohesive roleplay. It sets the prime growing conditions for RP cliques, constant struggles between groups of RPers, and stories that exist totally aside from each other... the anti community if you will.
An RP standard doesn't have to have a large impact on RP content because RP content is almost limitless. All it says is that if you are all playing paladin like character's here is a common thread for you all to go on to help your RPs stay close to the same page. Then you won't have to ignore each other to reconcile each other's story if you cross paths. When you have a larger sense of community, you will find completely separate and different stories intersect each other far more often, as has already been brought up elsewhere when talking about Telnavi. When there is no standard, you end up putting round pegs into square slots every time because each interpretation leads to different kinds of incompatible realizations. Simply put, several writers won't write a coherent story if they don't have an understanding among themselves.
The bigger problem is a lack of imagination. If you can't stretch a little then yes, a standard threatens to shrink your RP, but that is a problem with a lack of creativity, not the standard being over bearing. And it will become problematic in connection with many issues, not just in having a standard. This is why I regularly advocate trying to stretch out of cookie cutter, prefab RP roles.
In a perfect virtual world all story are coherent, but my point of view I don't feel like coherence is a primary goal to reach in a virtual world. Also striving for coherence at all costs usually gives all sort of problems like explaining perfectly how magic works and usually it fall-back to creating a "too much" real world with real life physic, real life issues and all sort of things most of us want to leave in real life when playing a game.
I think where coherence leaves some gap creativity fills in the rest. Same can be said for setting: where minor things are unclear that's where players can step in and create their own explanations. This gave birth to many interesting RP in my case.
About the community I think the respect for each others is its main glue. More than cohesive RP. if I feel respected OOCly and I feel other players are willing to open me the doors to their rp (even if I don't like it) and don't let me down just because I don't feel like to join it, well I would stick with such community ;)
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About the community I think the respect for each others is its main glue.
This quote will be perfect for reuse in future discussions =)
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It occurs to me that people probably think I am saying they should change the type of RP overall that is going on. For those that feel that way, let me quickly clear that up. Basically, I am advocating a different approach to the whole matter.
In a perfect virtual world all story are coherent, but my point of view I don't feel like coherence is a primary goal to reach in a virtual world. Also striving for coherence at all costs usually gives all sort of problems like explaining perfectly how magic works and usually it fall-back to creating a "too much" real world with real life physic, real life issues and all sort of things most of us want to leave in real life when playing a game.
I think where coherence leaves some gap creativity fills in the rest. Same can be said for setting: where minor things are unclear that's where players can step in and create their own explanations. This gave birth to many interesting RP in my case.
About the community I think the respect for each others is its main glue. More than cohesive RP. if I feel respected OOCly and I feel other players are willing to open me the doors to their rp (even if I don't like it) and don't let me down just because I don't feel like to join it, well I would stick with such community ;)
Umm... This one I have to disagree with in certain places since it kinda goes inherently against the nature of storytelling. I don't care how much respect for each other two authors have or how much goodwill there is, if they write stories with a different nature to their worlds, that is the fundamental baselines are different, those stories won't mesh until you reconcile the differences. Yes you can mix characters, and genres and so forth but I don't care how much you try to push Avatar's story line and Twilight's story line together, you are going to have to decide on what to keep and what to toss to even begin trying to fitting the story together. And yes, even in PS RPs can be that wildly different. Further, coherence doesn't imply you have to agree on every little thing but one great source of tension did happen to be from the settings team not being able to address certain things and then players getting offended when the settings was finally addressed and their individual explanations no longer fit. If even official settings isn't allowed to come up with an explanation how would it be any less messy when it is between players who have the same amount of authority on the matter?
While I'm happy for you that just the OOC understanding is enough, I don't think that it is enough to form an RP community though it is most assuredly critically important to keeping OOC cohesion. RP is not OOC so OOC will only help the story aspect so much. But the OOC understanding really must be there or you have the same problem with community but for a different reason. I believe what made PS popular in the past was that you could feel distinctly that you were stepping into a large story, a dynamic one, and not just a visual world. If everyone is kinda doing their own thing, traveling between RPs is more like island hopping than exploring a whole world. And one can easily get lost in the cracks.
All I am trying to say is that island hopping is not bad, but you loose a lot of potential than if you were to have a continuous landmass. All those gaps in between the "island" are those interactions missed due to not caring for a continuous story. For instance, Illy was about as lawful good as PS characters came, but her life regularly intersected those that weren't and she regularly dealt with them. Why? Because all the characters were interconnected in one great big on going story and they were dynamic enough to have more than one way of relating to their environment. And it wasn't a "let me stop/finish this plot and join another plot" story. Their stories flowed into each other. These characters had lives that told a story instead of just episodic bursts of "something happening" in their lives. This is what I mean when I keep bringing up storytelling in general.
Further, and I know people don't like to hear this but it's still a valid statistic: Planeshift's average player count is about 40 and that is with a regular trickle of new people coming to look at the game. What is going on now is simply not enough to hold the attention of enough people to grow the player base. Yes there are a variety of factors, like the short attention span of the average MMO player, but keep in mind two things:
First, planeshift grew up from a playerbase that was smaller than this one, it had less to do, and even less RP ;D , yeah I said it, but it grew up to eventually get as high as 200 players online during the day... And there were still factors then, as now, that made it unlikely that the player base would have grown. But there was enough there to keep people's attention and to make pretty loyal players who put up with a lot even if not everything. When people have something to latch on to, they will latch on and they will hang around even when it is inconvenient. I put newer players on my buddy list as I interact with them and as it stands my buddy list still stays pretty red. Anticipatory side note: there are many people out there with computers that can handle the game's requirements and that also RP. Even if former players couldn't run the game there would still be new players that could.
I guarantee you that at the rate it is going, PS is not only not growing, it is shrinking and will keep on that way. The highest player count of the year should be during summer when people have the most free time, not winter... It basically has to go down from here until next summer. Whether older players were elitist, had their heads too far up places we won't speak of, or whatever, there is something to be said for the results. That's why we call them results. I stick out as a note though that the reason the numbers came down at all was that lack of OOC respect between groups. As I said earlier, it is critical, but it's not enough on it's own either.
(http://planeshift.subhosting.net/onlinemonth.png)
Second point, graphics and visuals are nice but are less important in a RP world, the charm and compelling story are the sticking points. In RP, the story is less the sum of the building shaped boxes and pointy objects you can stick into mobs and more the character's and their interactions with each other and their circumstances. You can take away the items, the maps, and a character model and what would be left is the story much like the ones written here on the forums. Now take the RPs going on in PS now and string them together end to end... Would that story look like a continuous story or would it look like a few storylines stuck parallel? Would it look like a full world, or would it only show a certain segment. I know that you can never achieve full continuity, or address every aspect of every character's life, but it can be done more than it is currently.
Look at games like ADOM and Nethack, they aren't RP games but they are ascii games. That's is as low graphically as you can get. ;) They have a distinct story or perspective for you to advance with a great deal of thought put into it, which is more than a lot of graphically more advanced games. And a far larger player base than PS... The reason I even bring these games up is because often people want to cite newer MMOs as being a reason for PS's player decline, or that focusing on graphics and skills will fix that... These games are rather simple compared to PS, but they maintain more loyalty through engaging the player in the world more. If games like this which are not specifically for rp can do it, shouldn't it be that much easier to do in PS where it is set up for you to be able to create stories together?
In the end, I imagine it's a we agree to disagree matter. But I think adding more concepts of traditional storytelling would flesh out PS, allow for a more full feeling world, give newer players something to latch on, and give existing players more to work with.
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(http://i.imgur.com/BJtNal.jpg)
Couldn't resist. Don't really care about the argument, mostly a giant oldbie pissing contest to me. Rather rude to start it with some other guys RP as the title.
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Rather rude to start it with some other guys RP as the title.
Yes. This. Thank you so, so much. Have someone move the discussion to some other thread, like "General Discussion," this isn't about an ongoing roleplay, after all. It's in the wrong section as it is.
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(http://i.imgur.com/BJtNal.jpg)
Couldn't resist. Don't really care about the argument, mostly a giant oldbie pissing contest to me. Rather rude to start it with some other guys RP as the title.
Rather rude to start it with some other guys RP as the title.
Yes. This. Thank you so, so much. Have someone move the discussion to some other thread, like "General Discussion," this isn't about an ongoing roleplay, after all. It's in the wrong section as it is.
Thanks you two. This gives me a chance to make another point for those actually reading the thread. :)
Notice who broke the "lets be nice and respectful" trend. Notice, who is being disrepectful of other opinions. Who is making needless disparaging remarks about something they don't agree with without bothering to show the slightest hint of regard for another opinion? Notice who is putting words in the mouth of people that have not only stated their opinions in this thread, but have also proven they are capable of speaking for themselves. Notice who is bothering try to try and help others understand their perspective. This is exactly why some oldbies come out the woodwork swinging, it's this kind of unkindness that comes from not upholding that standard of being nice and respectful equally. Oldbies are always told "if you don't like it go away". But who tells the others to do the same? ;) Just something to think about.
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Thanks you two. This gives me a chance to make another point for those actually reading the thread. :)
Notice who broke the "lets be nice and respectful" trend. Notice, who is being disrepectful of other opinions. Who is making needless disparaging remarks about something they don't agree with without bothering to show the slightest hint of regard for another opinion? Notice who is putting words in the mouth of people that have not only stated their opinions in this thread, but have also proven they are capable of speaking for themselves. Notice who is bothering try to try and help others understand their perspective. This is exactly why some oldbies come out the woodwork swinging, it's this kind of unkindness that comes from not upholding that standard of being nice and respectful equally. Oldbies are always told "if you don't like it go away". But who tells the others to do the same? ;) Just something to think about.
Oh I haven't read through the thread, or really commented about it. But as he just said, it's rude to start a thread that implicates you're just going to critique a dude's entire RolePlay, and then keep it in this section. I don't care if you all want to yammer it up, but move the thread. It's not an ongoing roleplay. It's not really even stimulating roleplay. And you don't have to use harsh words to be cruel. Sure, have your opinion, hammer it out. But give it a new title, since it seems to have deviated way off the track of the initial discussion, and move it to a more appropriate location. Only cordial.
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It was moved, that's why this thread is here. That is the mod title... And how many threads get entire name change 6 pages into it? This started from that thread, the first posts are in connection with that thread, thus it maintained its connection. I think if cairn really had a problem with it, he would have mentioned it himself in one of the many times he himself commented here. I think his reply button works just fine. ;) And nothing mentioned here is overly harsh unless your ego is too easily pricked. That's how the niceness and "cordial" nature of the thread had been maintained until this point.
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Taking a whole lot general discussion and making it somehow personal when it is not, or posting some random image into a discussion thread, instead of bothering to read and understand what is being discussed almost perfectly underscores Illysia's point. There are times when it is appropriate to say nothing, this would have been one of them.
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Thank you Verden. I was going to let it go at this point, but I will add this one thing because it is important to point this out while there is a calm discussion and because Eonwind is right OOC respect is very important. Here's something else for people to think about, especially the would be paragons of "everyone be nice".
What just happened here was really small scale compared to the 5 to 10 people that would dogpile on in the past, but the same thing that let that happen then is still in play right now. There is an unspoken double standard that if you stick on a label of "cranky", "elitist", "mean" to an oldbie, that immediately justifies any kind of reprehensible behavior the person with the handy dandy label gun wants to deal out. And this applies whether that person justifies their label or arbitrarily wants to stick the label on to any player that disagrees. I've seen it happen to players that aren't even "oldbies."
Keep in mind that every player regardless of how long they have played, is still a human being with many of the same motivations, feelings, and reaction that anyone else has. I can't tell you how many times I've begged former players to come back, to help me, to just keep me company in game for a little while only to be told no, sadly, because they were sick and tired of the abuse. Especially those that only even bothered because they were actually trying to help only to get their heads ripped off. This needs to stop, it really doesn't matter how long you have been playing, being a jerk is the same across the board.
For the tl;dr crowd: Being a jerk is always a bad choice and you don't get to criticize when you are guilty of the same or worse.
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;D
Thank you for the summary. That one I read!
But I hope you will agree that I usually avoid being a jerk, anyway. :flowers: