PlaneShift

Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: cdmoreland on May 13, 2013, 07:36:55 pm

Title: How to run a new player off.
Post by: cdmoreland on May 13, 2013, 07:36:55 pm: Conversation to get a new player to quit:

(20:58:28) >Philer Gorer greets everyone.
(20:58:46) Kelaice sighs and looks back at Philer "What is it?"
(20:58:51) Philer says: evenin' m'lady
(20:59:35) Philer says: good night for a walk about town
(20:59:42) Kelaice nods, looking at Philer with a blank face "It is. Now is that all you had to say?"
(21:00:04) Philer says: sorry to be a bother.

This was his first contact with anyone in-game.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Cirerey on May 13, 2013, 07:50:49 pm: That is just depressing.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Chessire on May 13, 2013, 08:18:34 pm: It doesn't look that horrible to me if you think they are both roleplaying. The new player spoke to someone who is not playing a nice person and that's noone's fault, it may just be bad rp on the side of the person who replied. You shouldn't be always like "top of the day to you sir", its always useful however to engage into rp whether your character is nice or not.
Playing an evil, rude or grumpy charachter is no reason to take the easy way out, be rude and just stop there, without offering any handles for the others to keep playing with you.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Mariana Xiechai on May 13, 2013, 08:46:36 pm: Quote from: cdmoreland on May 13, 2013, 07:36:55 pm
Conversation to get a new player to quit:

(20:58:28) >Philer Gorer greets everyone.
(20:58:46) Kelaice sighs and looks back at Philer "What is it?"
(20:58:51) Philer says: evenin' m'lady
(20:59:35) Philer says: good night for a walk about town
(20:59:42) Kelaice nods, looking at Philer with a blank face "It is. Now is that all you had to say?"
(21:00:04) Philer says: sorry to be a bother.

This was his first contact with anyone in-game.

And this is completely unfair of you to judge.

I happen to know that individual out of character. Wonderful person really, friendly, engaging, and the like. The character happens to be abrasive. So what? That is in character. Is everyone you meet in reality happy and friendly all the time? Good bloody God I hope not. How horrifically boring would that be. We aren't all limited to being friendly and outgoing. Why would our characters be? How do you know that was the player's first interaction in game at all? It's possible they were talking in tells. It's possible they've Role Played before. And if they have, they'll realize the distinct difference between in character and out of character.

I'm very tired of people beating this over the head. Character actions are character actions, and they won't be curbed just to make sure everybody's happy all the time. People that don't understand out of character versus in character probably won't enjoy the game all that much anyway. You do not try to make people who choose to create such a character feel ashamed. By doing so, you rob the game of potential fun, and friction, and dynamic. There is nothing wrong with what that player did.

You're making a rapid judgment on something you probably don't have the facts on and tried to flame someone in a forum post. And you, in turn, run the risk of discouraging that person from Role Playing further, becoming the very thing you're claiming to be against. Shame on you, sir. Shame.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: novacadian on May 13, 2013, 09:24:23 pm: In the Keda a few weeks ago my character greeted an elf. They abrasively said, "Can't you see that I am reading!" My character replied, "Can't you see this is not the library?" The elf responded OOC "[My character is rude do not mean to offend ooc]". My responce was, "[I kinda got that :) ]"

It was a good idea of the other player to make that clear OOC in my opinion. Of course it was clear to me from the beginning; yet you know....

Today after dieing a horrible death in an RP last night with a Master of the Dark Way my character was wearily walking her way up the stairs in front of the Stonehead, having recently returned from the DR, when a new player approached asking where he could find some armour. Sighing and limping my character returned to storage and got them a set of leathers and 2000 tria for some recommended healing potions she then excused herself. He probably did not read the desc that she had bleeding claw marks across her face. :)

Helping new players trumps RP at this stage folks or there will soon be no RP. Of course done without going totally OOC with your character.

- Nova

P.S. The new character introduced themselves as, "Hi, I am a graphic artist from Indonesia." Did not want to scare that one away! :) He left happier than a clam and my RP pretty much intact.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Pierre on May 13, 2013, 10:02:35 pm: If there were /tells going on underneath this, sounds ok to me....if not, then this "friendly, engaging" player might want to learn to be more community minded, just to let new players know they are welcome, that we've got (and need) all types of characters here, and not to be put off by character actions.

And there is no need to shame people here, Mariana. Misunderstandings happen, no need to try to make people feel bad about it.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Mariana Xiechai on May 13, 2013, 10:11:56 pm: Quote from: Pierre on May 13, 2013, 10:02:35 pm

And there is no need to shame people here, Mariana. Misunderstandings happen, no need to try to make people feel bad about it.

I disagree, as the purpose of this entire forum post seems to be to shame the individual who replied. As said individual is a good friend, I will stick up for them. If Waesed wanted to make a statement about player cordiality, he would have started a thread about that, or blurred out the names for anonymity. As it is, this reads as an attack, and one that is wholly undeserved. As for your quotations, the individual has been a member for quite a number of years, and is known by numerous people for their cordiality. There is nothing wrong with, as I stated, being an abrasive character for purposes of RP. If you would like to state they should say that they are being in character, that is fine. But to post a single thread of a single event to make the statement that someone is "driving characters out of the game" is rude, and uncalled for.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Taya on May 13, 2013, 10:23:29 pm: Quote from: Mariana Xiechai on May 13, 2013, 10:11:56 pm
Quote from: Pierre on May 13, 2013, 10:02:35 pm

And there is no need to shame people here, Mariana. Misunderstandings happen, no need to try to make people feel bad about it.

I disagree, as the purpose of this entire forum post seems to be to shame the individual who replied.

I'm with Mari on this really. It looks like the purpose of the thread was to try and shame a player. In the absolute least the names should have been edited out of the original post, but they weren't - they were left there, providing what is quite possibly a very biased and one-sided view of events that may now colour other people against that individual. And my experience with such 'bad guy' type RPers is that I almost always receive some kind of OOC tell from them to check things are okay, and that is never visible to people outside the conversation so may very well have happened here.

Even if the original poster checked up on whether there was or wasn't a /tell conversation in the background, this still doesn't seem like an appropriate way to handle it. A better approach would have been to speak to the player and alert them to the fact that maybe they should go easier on new players, because running to the forum to try and make them look bad in a place where they might never see the post and get the chance to defend themself seems quite low to me. If you find it to be such a huge concern, an even more appropriate response is probably /report and let the GMs be the judges of it.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 13, 2013, 11:32:27 pm: I don't think cdmoreland's post was the most constructive way to handle the matter but I think it is a bit much to call it a shaming as there is no long tirade against what happened or personal attacks against the player aside from commenting on the incident, which doesn't violate the forum conduct rules. Remember, you are quite free to form your own opinion about this snippet, but so is he.

That being said, I agree with Nova, in a case where your character is not nice be sure to use OOC to cover your rear in these kinds of situations, especially with new players. People have to learn to tell between OOC and IC, and well they should since it is fundamental to RP and there is no way around it; however, we do need to give people a chance to learn. Remember, there is very little reason for them to have exposure to the IC/OOC boundary outside of PS. Help them out a little. ;)

That player might be lost and they might not, we don't know, but I would say just use this as a learning moment and remember to give new players a heads up since many of them don't seem to even know what IC is. But remember that all around everyone has something to learn whether they are old or new experienced or not, so give everyone a chance to catch up if there is some way that you think they are lacking/failing/not understanding/doing it wrong. (including Kelaice ;) )
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Taya on May 13, 2013, 11:56:01 pm: Public accusation that someone made a player quit along with public naming of the accused player would seem to be more than merely having an opinion to me. There is also no invite to discussion - it's just a blank statement that looks very much like something that might upset the player concerned when, for all we know, there was an OOC conversation behind it and they did nothing deserving of this.

Most sites I have been a member of would term this as some form of defaming or attack and regardless of what PS rules are or are not, I don't like to see a player being accused of such things with no real evidence. Honestly feels like a thing that should have been raised with the GMs or left alone.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 14, 2013, 01:18:45 am: It's on a public forum in an unlocked thread, I would assume discussion is expected. Like I said, it isn't the greatest way to handle it, but if that is all it takes to get feelings badly hurt, it is a good thing the playerbase is as small as it is because it wouldn't survive getting bigger. Your average MMO player is a lot more ill mannered and bad tempered when something they don't like happens, and the bigger a community gets the less open, calm dialogue there is between the majority of players. So, players end up not even caring if they are behaving badly.

It's not that I am advocating a lack of civility, but understand, if this is all it takes to send players to their respective corners mad and glaring at each other then the "community" doesn't stand a chance. Just like better tolerance and patience is needed, a certain amount of thick skin is needed as well. This isn't the Carebear fellowship; people should be able to start dialogues without engraved invitations, but at the same time they should be mature enough to be able to defend without attacking.

This complaint is much better than the "just go and die" and "ur an <expletive> retard" 'complaints' that I'm used to seeing from players in other MMOs, and like it or not that is the way most larger MMO playerbases are. If nothing else, the internet has a tendency to breed less than admirable social skills. Thicker skin is going to be needed if there is ever an influx of players, especially if they come from other MMOs.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Taya on May 14, 2013, 01:46:33 am: I wasn't really talking about 'other MMOs' though, not that the distinction is important as 'that's how it is' is never a good enough reason to excuse things. The reasons you outlined are generally why these things are frowned on in most places though. You can say people should be more thick skinned as often as you like (I tend to agree), but some aren't and that's also just how it is. It's not about anyone glaring madly from corners or any expectations of engraved invitations in order to discuss an issue and I just don't see where you get ideas of carebear fellowships from. Just not seeing need to dramatise the issue with such things.

Anyway, I don't really want to turn this into a debate that blunders further and further off the main topic though because the thread isn't worthy of one and shouldn't exist to begin with as far as I'm concerned. Threads like this are pretty damaging to the community, so it should just die - or better yet if someone just deletes it.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Zalya on May 14, 2013, 01:54:14 am: Hold on! I play this character and I stated EXPLICITLY in my char's OOC description that she was a jerk sometimes. I totally understand how a new char might have found this a little unnerving at first, and I totally understand that the OOC tab is easy to miss sometimes. The way the character is played is in no way a reflection of me or the game. In fact the entire point of that char being rude was to spark conflict to lead to further RP. I admit, I was a little slow to the draw in responding to the message at first, as I was a little distracted, but after Philer left I tried to send a /tell that said [I didn't mean to scare you away :)]

That being said I definitely understand how a rude char can sort of be a little jarring, especially if she is the first person that you meet. If your up for it, I would love to continue the RP, or perhaps RP with my other much nicer Char. I had no intent to make you feel unwelcome at all! I had in fact been trying to start a little bit of a fun argument :) If you see Kelaice or Zalya in game at all, send me a /tell I'll be happy to talk. Again, sorry for the rudeness but I assure you it was all just RP. Next time stick around a little longer or talk to me OOCly. I don't bite. Kelaice might though :)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 14, 2013, 02:03:25 am: Quote from: Taya on May 14, 2013, 01:46:33 am
Anyway, I don't really want to turn this into a debate that blunders further and further off the main topic though because the thread isn't worthy of one and shouldn't exist to begin with as far as I'm concerned. Threads like this are pretty damaging to the community, so it should just die - or better yet if someone just deletes it.

This is what I would consider dramatization. This thread is not the end of the world. In fact, it is a perfect opportunity to start a dialogue about how to head off offending behavior at the pass. For instance, did you consider that maybe cdmoreland posted this because he didn't realize that someone else might take what he said so badly? Now how will he or anyone else get a sense of that or learn if the thread is just deleted without so much as an explanation or discussion.

This is why I say carebear fellowship. It gets to the point where people get so sensitive about less than positive things that you can't talk about them and the only allowed conversation becomes good feelings and telling everyone how awesome they are. How can you address issues and teach those that don't know how to properly handle them that way? Ignoring the realities of behavior doesn't change anything. Better to use patience and calm discussion because if deletion and silence worked, censoring would be the end all solution. Like I said earlier, one has to be able to defend without going on the attack.

@Zalya: Well, that proves it. No harm meant. :)

Trying putting it in brackets at the top of the normal description, I've kinda found that the important stuff you put in OOC tab rarely gets read. I didn't start getting fewer tells correcting my use of he with Danao or people telling me how confused they were until I made some tweaks to the first line of the description. :) However, despite being a little immersion breaking, you can try instead just using [I'm just being IC mean :)] or some such thing in main or tells to help make it clear. even just making a side comment commenting on how mean your character is or something that proves that you the player don't feel that way works, not to mention people feel better when they see smileys. ;)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Zalya on May 14, 2013, 02:05:36 am: I should do that. Or at least try. I feel really bad now :/ I just wish they hadn't logged off so fast and got my message.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 14, 2013, 02:10:50 am: For those of us who have played for a while, you know what its like to see your character get into a dire predicament or to be teetering at some other precipice of irreversible change and to feel a strong sense of tension, excitement, anticipation or anxiousness as a result. Sometimes you unintentionally feel things that your character would feel. The boundary between character and player is sometimes blurred unintentionally despite knowing the difference intellectually.

Nova made a good point in that it doesn't hurt to reach out with an ooc tell to make friendly contact while letting your character say and do as they wilt. This can be confusing for newcomers. On the other hand, you can't blame the player of the baddy char for not offering an olive branch to the other player. Its not a crime to NOT make any ooc communication. For some, even the slightest amount of ooc chatter takes them out of immersion.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 14, 2013, 02:16:55 am: Quote from: Zalya on May 14, 2013, 02:05:36 am
I should do that. Or at least try. I feel really bad now :/ I just wish they hadn't logged off so fast and got my message.

Don't beat yourself up too bad, there is only so much you can do about that instance now. Just try to do something in the future and you should be good. :thumbup:
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 14, 2013, 02:28:23 am: If they're genuinely interested, they'll be back.

Oh, and for anyone who might be confused. This isn't the goddamn council of carebears, this is Planeshift and its powered by creepy, anonymous strangers via the Internet. Beware!
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 14, 2013, 02:29:28 am: Quote from: Rigwyn on May 14, 2013, 02:28:23 am
its powered by creepy, anonymous strangers via the Internet.

A little redundant... It's the internet. X-/
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 14, 2013, 02:40:42 am: Yes, I just wanted to highlight the that one little point. I think some folks forget this. For those who need further reminding, some of us are not very nice in real life. Some are god-awful pagans, non-believers, republicans, *cough* LIBERALS *cough*, males who play convincing female characters, females who secretly play male characters so as not to be discriminated against ( and who can kick your ass in a duel), your mom or somebody who knows you personally despite you not knowing who they are.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Taya on May 14, 2013, 02:43:19 am: It's nothing at all to do with censorship Illysia. It's to do with presenting issues in a way that's a bit more aware. And yes, I did think about what the original poster may or may not be aware of. I just disagreed with the presentation. Not including the names and presenting it as a discussion about what is and isn't good for a new player to encounter would have been great as that would have changed the whole tone of things. That's a thread I'd have no issues with. I just have something against a post that amounts to "This player ran off a new member" and no other content to it at all.

If there are any carebears here, I'd be quite happy to eat them for breakfast really. It would certainly be the end of their world then I suppose.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 14, 2013, 02:53:05 am: Well since cdmoreland hasn't even posted twice yet, there was nothing preventing that discussion from starting accept knee jerk reactions to his initial post. Rather than jump down his throat about it just tell him that what he did wasn't the most tactful way of addressing the problem. Awareness has to be learned as well.

In regards to the topic, everyone should follow "never believe everything you read on the internet". Yes, it isn't the greatest way to handle it either, but cdmoreland can change the topic by simply modifying the first post. At least give him a chance to even respond and try it again.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Taya on May 14, 2013, 03:08:06 am: I also would have left it at one post if not for this.

Either way, please back off a little. I am not and have not jumped down anyone's throat. You were so quick to defend his right to an opinion so maybe you should consider being less negative against myself and others having one as well, especially since you agreed immediately that the path he took was not the best one.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Mariana Xiechai on May 14, 2013, 03:13:59 am: Quote
I should do that. Or at least try. I feel really bad now :/ I just wish they hadn't logged off so fast and got my message.

You shouldn't. As I stated before, and as stated by others, you did absolutely nothing wrong at all.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Phantomboy86 on May 14, 2013, 03:23:01 am: So, anyone else ready to see Taya and Illysia have another battle royale in a thread? (inb4 its basically already happening. thread extended past the 1 page it deserved and Zalya having to unnecessarily apologize should've been the drop dead end)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Taya on May 14, 2013, 03:34:49 am: I'm too busy chomping carebears to battle really. Unless someone else tries to steal my carebears of course.

Full agreement Zalya's apology was not needed though. Zalya, please also accept my apologies for replying to things that veered off the topic and moving away from the point at hand - I really don't think this topic was fair to you at all or that you should have felt a need to say sorry for staying IC. Awareness toward how someone else might take RP is always good, but from my experiences with you, you always show this.

Ignoring any further comments directed toward me here.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 14, 2013, 03:38:48 am: @Phantomboy: Not really. I don't intend on doing battle here, can't work up that kind of enthusiasm. But it didn't necessarily have to stop at the end but I agree that the bulk of page two isn't the most constructive use of the opportunity the thread provides. Zalya's apology isn't absolutely necessary, but good on her for doing it. Putting a little extra goodwill out there never hurts. :thumbup:

@Taya: As I tell you in every thread, it's not a personal attack. I'm not being overly negative, you are getting more sensitive. I mean you no harm, you can calm down. But even cdmoreland deserves a little defense since he's a decent guy as well.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: novacadian on May 14, 2013, 06:48:40 am: Quote from: Rigwyn on May 14, 2013, 02:40:42 am

.... your mom or somebody who knows you personally despite you not knowing who they are.

My Mom is on planeshift?!? That explains the passworded screen lock. ;)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 14, 2013, 06:56:14 am: Quote from: novacadian on May 14, 2013, 06:48:40 am
Quote from: Rigwyn on May 14, 2013, 02:40:42 am

.... your mom or somebody who knows you personally despite you not knowing who they are.

My Mom is on planeshift?!? That explains the passworded screen lock. ;)

I shall refrain from joking.... :whistling:
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: LigH on May 14, 2013, 07:56:57 am: There are people who get disappointed by even smaller things than this roleplayed despair. For such people, a serious role-playing game may not (yet?) be the perfect choice anyway; we don't force people to play PlaneShift if they don't like it. But we will try to explain why we, who still do, prefer it. There is always a chance that one or another gives a second try after a dreamy night.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Taya on May 14, 2013, 09:40:16 am: Quote from: Illysia on May 14, 2013, 03:38:48 am
@Taya: As I tell you in every thread, it's not a personal attack. I'm not being overly negative, you are getting more sensitive. I mean you no harm, you can calm down. But even cdmoreland deserves a little defense since he's a decent guy as well.

Sadly, despite myself I feel the need to reply to this.

I am not 'getting more sensitive.' I personally couldn't care less who says what about me so long as I have a voice to reply with. What I do have is an awareness that others can be sensitive toward such things and this is a very different thing, so please don't put meaning to my posts that isn't there. I also don't feel like you are making a personal attack against me and there is no point in this conversation that I have felt anything but calm. If I am going to be completely truthful, I've felt bored because it goes round in circles pointlessly. So, please stop making assumptions about my stance. I disagreed with the first post. That's all there is to it and nothing more complicated than that.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 14, 2013, 09:41:39 am: Quote from: Taya on May 14, 2013, 03:08:06 am
Either way, please back off a little. I am not and have not jumped down anyone's throat. You were so quick to defend his right to an opinion so maybe you should consider being less negative against myself and others having one as well, especially since you agreed immediately that the path he took was not the best one.

Ok, so then I completely misunderstood this post. ;)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: cdmoreland on May 14, 2013, 11:28:50 am: Forgive me if anyone thought I was trying to shame someone, as that wasn't my intention. It tool me a long time to talk the person into trying PS. Had I been online with them I could have explained.

I can see that "Kelaice" was just playing their character. I don't fault them, just wanted to point it out.

PS has a lot to like and I really enjoy playing.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 14, 2013, 11:36:26 am: Quote from: cdmoreland on May 14, 2013, 11:28:50 am
Forgive me if anyone thought I was trying to shame someone, as that wasn't my intention. It tool me a long time to talk the person into trying PS. Had I been online with them I could have explained.

I can see that "Kelaice" was just playing their character. I don't fault them, just wanted to point it out.

PS has a lot to like and I really enjoy playing.

The title of the subject was "How to run a new player off. "
Pfft. Who are you kidding?
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 14, 2013, 11:41:13 am: Well at least everyone's official statement is in. The matter can be put to rest, and if any one sees Philer they can explain what happened. The matter can be closed unless Philer decides to pop up.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Eonwind on May 14, 2013, 11:57:04 am: I do not really want to take any side in this discussion but I fell like it's presenting an actual problem: which are the boundaries between staying true to the character and being friendly towards other players?
I'm not here to point to a specific course of action, but I just want to remember that there's no RP if there are no players around. If a new player doesn't feel like welcomed in a community chances are he won't stay.
I'm sure most of you are mature enough to draw their own course of actions, I will only add that cooperation (giving/loosing/risking something trusting the other side to do the same) is the only way two sides can both benefit from any situation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: verden on May 14, 2013, 01:15:24 pm: New players get run off, old players sometimes hang around. It is just so much fun in this game. Bash those players more, because obviously there must be something wrong with them to not want to jump into this bundle of fun and excitement. What always impresses me is how attractive this community is to outsiders.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Candy on May 14, 2013, 01:55:20 pm: There have been points in PS's cycle of roleplayers coming and going where even I, having been around a while at the time, felt unwelcome in roleplays if I wasn't on a certain character that everyone knew. This was when people were leaving in droves, and guess why - and some of the very same people that complained about "the elitist pricks driving everyone away" were the ones that rejected my alts if they didn't know it was me or asked me to log my better-known character instead if they did know who was at the keyboard.*

We are not at one of those points. Right now, we're low in numbers and we know it. We can't afford to be snobs. I concur with those that say don't break character, but add an OOC "[My character is just like this; it's nothing personal!]".

:offtopic:
*Not that I'm opposed to being asked to log a different character, if you want me to get someone on I'll probably do it unless I'm already in an intense RP or have like three clients up already - it's just that, at the time, everyone demanded the same character and I wanted to explore some different personalities. I'm quite grateful for people putting up with my making up for the lost time with my kajillion alts nowadays. :love:
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Cirerey on May 14, 2013, 04:03:07 pm: All right then. Can we agree that a new player left because they were treated rudely, but without malice on the part of the player? And that this was mentioned with what was intended as constructive criticism? Maybe then we can get to lessons learned and stop focusing on hurt feelings. The suggestion on adding a [bracketed] line at the top of the main desc was useful, and was accepted by the player who inadvertently caused the noob to leave. But the core issue seems to be just how IC do we need to be when dealing with noobs. Can we extend ourselves OOC to encourage and train them into good PS RPers and how much OOC is too much? I suspect this will continue to be a contentious discussion but I believe it to be one worth having.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Eonwind on May 14, 2013, 05:20:41 pm: Quote from: Cirerey on May 14, 2013, 04:03:07 pm
But the core issue seems to be just how IC do we need to be when dealing with noobs. Can we extend ourselves OOC to encourage and train them into good PS RPers and how much OOC is too much? I suspect this will continue to be a contentious discussion but I believe it to be one worth having.

Since the no-RP server (Ezpcusa) and the RP server were merged the RP and no RP communities are in the same server now: so the official guidelines are to encourage IC as much as possible while OOC can be used as much as necessary (no limits but common sense). Using brackets for OOC in the Main chat is strongly encouraged.
No limits to OOC in the others tabs, including /tell.

When dealing to new players my personal opinion about what "common sense" means is: I'd use OOC as much as necessary to make sure we understand each other and if possible introduce them in the way we use IC/OOC dialogs in a nice way.
Also introducing new players to the game offering/giving them the informations they miss or need is very appreciated.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 14, 2013, 06:33:24 pm: Quote from: Cirerey on May 14, 2013, 04:03:07 pm
But the core issue seems to be just how IC do we need to be when dealing with noobs. Can we extend ourselves OOC to encourage and train them into good PS RPers and how much OOC is too much? I suspect this will continue to be a contentious discussion but I believe it to be one worth having.

I would say go ahead and make a fresh thread if you want to have a new discussion. Starting clean would probably help cut down on contention. But I would say the underlying problem is that now newbies outnumber the people who know how to RP and that causes a strain on the remaining experienced RPers because they can easily spend way more time teaching than actually engaging in RP they want to do. Teaching takes time and not everyone finds it fun or something they want to spend a lot of time on.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Bonifarzia on May 14, 2013, 06:38:38 pm: Issues with new players? Has a long tradition (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=32466.0) ;D
That being pointed at, I don't really see a big problem here.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Eonwind on May 14, 2013, 07:08:24 pm: Quote from: Illysia on May 14, 2013, 06:33:24 pm
I would say go ahead and make a fresh thread if you want to have a new discussion. Starting clean would probably help cut down on contention. But I would say the underlying problem is that now newbies outnumber the people who know how to RP and that causes a strain on the remaining experienced RPers because they can easily spend way more time teaching than actually engaging in RP they want to do. Teaching takes time and not everyone finds it fun or something they want to spend a lot of time on.

I would say Cirerey post is perfectly on topic and I can't see this flock of newbies dramatically causing a strain to established roleplayers. Even if they were outnumbered no one must feels compelled to train/endorse anyone RP. A help and a friendly attitude will do more than one expects and giving a good example can lead new players to follow it over time and with fewer efforts.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: novacadian on May 14, 2013, 07:34:42 pm: Quote from: Bonifarzia on May 14, 2013, 06:38:38 pm

Issues with new players? Has a long tradition (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=32466.0) ;D

That was biggiest laugh of the day. Thanks Boni!
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 14, 2013, 09:30:15 pm: Quote from: Cirerey on May 14, 2013, 04:03:07 pm
All right then. Can we agree that a new player left because they were treated rudely, but without malice on the part of the player?

No, the player was not treated rudely.

Their character gave a cheery hello to another character who was not all nice and cheery. His character didn't even know her and yet he was trying to get her to go take a stroll with him. A cold or dismissive response would be perfectly normal even for a good aligned character in that situation.

This is a case of a player who had no clue that other character in the game might not be the stereotypical cheery RPG adventurer.

Looking at the original post, then all went down in about 6 or so lines. Come on, Zalya didn't even have a chance to talk to the guy. He's lucky he didn't run into one of my characters...
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 14, 2013, 09:34:44 pm: I forgot about that song.

But while Cirerey's post is on topic look at the antagonism that came from the title, an honest discussion deserves a fair shake aside from what has already gone down in this thread, for the sake of having better exposure if nothing else, hence the suggestion to put it in a new thread. It needs a chance to develop on its own merit.

Quote from: Rigwyn on May 14, 2013, 09:30:15 pm
No, the player was not treated rudely.

Agreed. That was IC rudeness not OOC so the IC/OOC boundary holds. The rest is just an extra courtesy but it isn't actually owed given the fact that the IC/OOC boundary isn't a hidden rule. The whole thing just broke a bit unfortunately is all.

Whether people should feel obligated to teach is not the issue. The issue is "do they feel obligated?" Consider this for a moment: sometimes you just want to pick up some RP without a ton of effort. But, if the other experienced RPers are busy, you are left to RP with the newbies. If the newbies don't know how to RP, guess what? To RP with them you will have to teach. The only alternatives are to give up on RPing and do something else or just struggle along trying to interact with them while they still don't know that asking about a computer issue is not IC, so you are now forced to teach to RP. Now factor in that you might work with a newbie for awhile only for them to disappear entirely or they just simply aren't playing regularly. So, you start the process over with a new newbie. But guess what? The same thing happens to them. So you go through a few newbies. Finally, you have one who hangs around but guess what, they are still in the learning stages. So after all of this effort, you still might not be able to do the kinds of RP you want because your newbie might not be ready to handle it. Or, maybe they are game for trying but you spend more time instructing and teaching than you do actually working out the RP.

It's not that newbies aren't fun to RP with, but there is a skewed return/effort ratio and most people simply don't have enough to invest or enough already invested in this game (newbie/ or experienced player) to put in so much effort for such little return. Truth be told, the return/effort ratio is pretty skewed for newbies too. Why should they invest time in learning to RP, if they don't already, when they might not even like the game enough to stay? Most people only have an hour or so to play; if 40 mins of every hour is spent expending effort while hoping on future return then that return had better be tremendous to justify the expense. The problem, however, is that many times there is no return or very little if there is any. So people end up giving up because of the burden of laboring without return.

This graph is the current monthly graph for players online in PS... look at that average dropping. People are getting tired of investing with little return and the time that used to be spent on PS is now going to other tasks because the game is becoming a lower and lower priority.
(http://planeshift.subhosting.net/onlinemonth.png)

Now look at this graph from 2010. See the difference? Look at the y axis. Right now things should be picking up because summer is approaching and people's time should be freeing up. Yes people often cite machine requirements as a reason for decline but think about all the MMOs out there with higher requirements that seem to find people who can play them just fine. This is a matter PS becoming a lower priority and people are less interesred in struggling with it.
(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/6755/psdecember2010peak.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/194/psdecember2010peak.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

The only way that future efforts will pay off is if there is a big turn around in the present and it is more complicated than simply getting more people to try the game.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: novacadian on May 14, 2013, 10:29:05 pm: My main has the advantage of being a Priestess of Talad. One of the tenants of Talad is to share and aid those in need. So it is not ooc for my character to hand out gear, stock the Gug Altar with noob quest items and give a purse of tria to some young and homeless arrival.

As to teaching, the mechanics of rp is shared to noobs by me. That is bracket ooc comments, etc.. Other than the mechanics it is my belief that there is nothing to teach. That is my opinion only and respect those that think they have something to share in that regard.

Has it been my experience to see characters being played better than others. Damn straight. Yet characters are better played the better the player knows them. So that is a learning curve... or development curve if you will. Also some people are just more expressive and are able to play the character more objectively.

Having been a table top GM for numbers of years that can be said to be true in RPG play too. There are players that have been playing the same character (changing the name and stats in re-rolls occactionally) for years in my campaign. They are always alter egoes of themselves. The warrior they would like to be; the mage that they see themselves as.

The skilled player, of course, plays the character as the character. Preaching to the choir here... yet you get my point.

So other than reminding (sometimes repetitively) about the RP mechanics they are left to roll with me. My experience has been that the better that my character is being played raises the bar for the noob as well and their freshness is often quite surprising where they can take things provided they have the other innate abilities mentioned.

We are playing a style of play normally reserved for children in our society. 'Tending. There are no rules for children in their pretending; only limits to their imagination.

The other thing a child has is lightness to their play. That may be the lacking feature when one divides the cast of players into categories. New arrivals and old hang arounds should be here for fun. Taken any more seriously than that deserves another thread.

It's pretty simply in my opinion.

- Nova

P.S. Just realized my signature needed updating. :)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Zalya on May 15, 2013, 01:07:00 am: There is only so much you can teach with RP. It is like writing. You can be told how to spell, and taught the grammar and syntax, but to become truly good at it you need to find your own voice. You need to draw upon what you like, and toss the stuff you don't. Pretty soon you will find your own corner to call home, and share it with the rest of the world. I've been GMing table top games for years as well, and I have taught my fair share of new players. The best way to get them to really enjoy them selves is to present the conflict and the characters and then just jump in.

I think the biggest problem with what happened in those six lines was that I did not get the time to explain myself. I had only gotten the chance for one post before they had left. Kelaice is a character who always wakes up on the wrong side of the bed :P I'm not mad, or ashamed or anything of that nature. I just wish I had time to continue the RP, and perhaps an OOC chat afterwards. No body is at fault here, and I really don't think anyone is blaming anyone. Course' I think that might have been worked out already :P
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Eonwind on May 15, 2013, 01:14:51 am: @Illisia: first replying in 10 lines or less would be really appreciated :P second I suggest to avoid taking some data and arbitrarily assigning a meaning with the intent to prove your opinion :P in fact raw data only means we're loosing players that's it. Feel free to reply we're loosing RPers over new players but I'm pretty sure you're not being able to support it with actual data (rumors aren't data) simply because those data isn't available (yet). Third and last let me do the nitpicker ;D and point out that if they "do they feel obligated?" is :offtopic:
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: tman on May 15, 2013, 01:41:12 am: Quote from: Illysia on May 14, 2013, 09:34:44 pm
(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/6755/psdecember2010peak.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/194/psdecember2010peak.jpg/)

I really don't want to get involved in any arguments on here. But I wanted to point out the major downward spike toward the middle/end of May, likely corresponding to finals. Player count should pick back up when finals end *crosses fingers*
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Tessra on May 15, 2013, 02:42:54 am: Quote from: Rigwyn on May 14, 2013, 09:30:15 pm
He's lucky he didn't run into one of my characters...
My thoughts exactly.

I do take an objection to threads like this, because with the title being as it is and the lack of elaboration in the op, it comes across as being a rude, unwelcoming, targeted attack, and for someone who doesn't know Waesed, it might seem like he's just being mean. The irony is not lost here.

Yes, there is a fine line to walk when you play an abrasive character. I know. I play one. My suggestion to the other players of caustic characters is not to be OOC towards nooblets, but to find an IC way to interact with them that is not OOC for your character. My girl is a heinous witch, but when someone new comes up to her, one of my things that I do when I think I have a noob, is I offer them a chance to make some tria by getting them to do nefarious things. I've paid new characters to steal from well-known players, to spy on people, to run silly little errands that my character would find demeaning to do (like picking mushrooms). There's quite a few things that even the most evil character can corrupt a poor, innocent newbie into doing. And the best part... it opens up RP avenues. Case in point? One of the ways Tesh and Travosh really started talking was her "hiring" him to steal a black falchion from Marsuveus. You'd have to ask Trav how long it took him to actually GET the darn thing. But a lot of RP was involved.

For someone in Venorel's situation, just some ideas: She's a priestess of Talad. If she's injured, she can ask a new player to help her up to the temple of Talad, giving him directions and a bit of the layout of Gugrontid in the process, and then offer him a reward for his help at the end. It gives RP, and the same type of "reward" to the player, in the form of armor and tria, but it also lets Ven stay in character while she's injured.

Granted, things like this, hindsight is 20/20. It's always easier to think up what you "might" have done. But good RPers are on the lookout for ways to keep their characters involved, keep them true to themselves, and ways to LEARN through the RP process. No one is perfect. No one always has the best ideas. But the difference between a good RPer and a great one is a dynamic adaptablity that is free from the stigma of elitism.

I suppose why things like this thread bother me so much, is that while one new player might've considered never coming back, I know at least two players who have played for 3+ years who were ready to leave over the nattering dramafest that erupts on the forum. Players who have been a strong, noticable presence over the years, who have been welcoming to so many new players in that time, who are so tired of the crap that they would just walk away to not have to deal with the censure. Oh, and neither one of them is Zalya.

I don't have anything against Waesed, but I'd really like to see issues like this handled in a more productive and constructive way.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 15, 2013, 02:54:16 am: @Eonwind: Ok, here it is in 10 lines or less. Nevermind. :) I'm kinda tired of explaining to people the connections between things and why they are relevant to the topic at hand, explaining why I am explaining so much, explaining past relations to current relations, ect... So, I'll just let it go since the fact that I have to repeat stuff so often means people are skimming past the points and their reiterations anyway. It's not like this is my project. I tried to say something before it got this low, and I tried again to say something again before the average drops to 10 players. But oh well. Maybe when the raw data shows an average of 5 players you might find some merit in what I've been trying to say, maybe not.

Quote from: Tessra on May 15, 2013, 02:42:54 am
I suppose why things like this thread bother me so much, is that while one new player might've considered never coming back, I know at least two players who have played for 3+ years who were ready to leave over the nattering dramafest that erupts on the forum.

Very true.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: cdmoreland on May 15, 2013, 03:59:51 am: I never expected to generate so much attention with this. It's true that I should have explained better with the first post. I really want to see 100 players online again and rp all over the place. I posted this as a caution, not to condemn anyone for being ic. We need to find a way to retain players if we are going to enjoy this game to the fullest.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Ebonwumon on May 15, 2013, 06:48:44 am: Have you tried traps?
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 15, 2013, 06:57:48 am: I don't think that's very PG-13
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: novacadian on May 15, 2013, 07:08:45 am: Quote from: Tessra on May 15, 2013, 02:42:54 am

For someone in Venorel's situation, just some ideas: She's a priestess of Talad. If she's injured, she can ask a new player to help her up to the temple of Talad, giving him directions and a bit of the layout of Gugrontid in the process, and then offer him a reward for his help at the end. It gives RP, and the same type of "reward" to the player, in the form of armor and tria, but it also lets Ven stay in character while she's injured.

Great pointers! Thanks.

- Nova
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Volki on May 15, 2013, 12:42:21 pm: LOL

Haven't been around a few days, mostly because this forum was so dead.

Now it's got a hot thread.

And it's bashing roleplay.

Cdmoreland, you're a plague on this game. Everything you post is to the detriment of PlaneShift. You've got to be a troll. If you're a troll, I must commend you for the amazingly accurate depiction of ignorance regarding roleplaying games. Go you! (Be proud, not many get that from me.)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Minks on May 15, 2013, 01:20:46 pm: http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=41244.msg463907#msg463907
:whistling:
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: cdmoreland on May 15, 2013, 01:38:41 pm: Quote from: Volki on May 15, 2013, 12:42:21 pm
LOL

Haven't been around a few days, mostly because this forum was so dead.

Now it's got a hot thread.

And it's bashing roleplay.

Cdmoreland, you're a plague on this game. Everything you post is to the detriment of PlaneShift. You've got to be a troll. If you're a troll, I must commend you for the amazingly accurate depiction of ignorance regarding roleplaying games. Go you! (Be proud, not many get that from me.)

I've been here for quite some time, having started on ezpc with Ellis. I guess my idea of role-play isn't the same as some others because I never enjoyed text-based rp. I like to rp what I can see and do in this 3D game. If I am a problem here, I can always leave.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Pakarro on May 15, 2013, 02:14:37 pm: Quote from: cdmoreland on May 15, 2013, 01:38:41 pm
I've been here for quite some time, having started on ezpc with Ellis. I guess my idea of role-play isn't the same as some others because I never enjoyed text-based rp. I like to rp what I can see and do in this 3D game. If I am a problem here, I can always leave.

Pakerl likes you, Waesed! You helped her very nicely when she was new....
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: cdmoreland on May 15, 2013, 02:53:55 pm: Thanks, Pakarro. :)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Cirerey on May 15, 2013, 03:13:10 pm: Quote from: cdmoreland on May 15, 2013, 01:38:41 pm
I've been here for quite some time, having started on ezpc with Ellis. I guess my idea of role-play isn't the same as some others because I never enjoyed text-based rp. I like to rp what I can see and do in this 3D game. If I am a problem here, I can always leave.

Please don't you add a lot to the game. And I'd like to point out that your wedding was an RP high point for the game. A huge event with large crowds present. Don't let the endless unproductive snarking get to you.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: LigH on May 15, 2013, 03:32:54 pm: @ cdmoreland:

Don't get trolled by the queen of trolls. See Minks' reply.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Pierre on May 15, 2013, 11:04:55 pm: Agree with LigH, don't get trolled by that troll, and try not to let the shamers/bashers affect you - the people who care and want to discuss, including this Zayla who sounds awesome and levelheaded, have made this thread interesting.

Mariana et. al, first, nothing personal since I met you in game both ic and ooc (on gossip) and you were awesome, but you and people similar to you should try to tone down the psychological manipulation/punishment, it's bloody weird and also totally unproductive. If you thought this post was forum bashing - first, it seems you were wrong - and second, how does getting into this dark counter-bashing stuff make your point? It doesn't, it just makes people feel bad and makes them want to leave, as you mention.

Getting new players to stay is really a problem, and if it had been my char who had accidentally run someone off (which I totally could do, not in this way because I am very good with cheerful noobs, but very bad with flirty/shirty noobs) I would have no problem with someone posting the log here, just as Zayla had no problem with it. It's better not to take things so personally, we are all mainly just trying to make the game better.

Anyway, I like the thread and the original post even with the moments of drama. Glad for Illy's contributions especially (which is funny since my char couldn't bear her char back in the day). Cheers.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 15, 2013, 11:14:49 pm: The noob wasn't run off.

Did this noob tell cdmoreland explicitly that he left the game because he was pissed off at kelaice or did somebody take the liberty to assume this?
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Pierre on May 15, 2013, 11:18:15 pm: I think someone took the liberty, and I thought it was you, Rigwyn :detective:

(that was a joke, although in general you do not seem irony deficient, it never hurts to ruin the humour by stating the obvious)...
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Pierre on May 15, 2013, 11:22:19 pm: and, btw, I thought your response was great and I totally agreed - very glad he didn't meet Rigwyn or that klyros...Travosh? Although he seems quite tamed now...anyway, it could have been worse. It's nice that the forge workers are mostly all very kind, helpful and cute, and that is where noobs end up most often. You usually have to go to pubs, alleyways and temples to find the darker creatures. Also the sewers.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 15, 2013, 11:23:27 pm: /me empties his pockets, spilling liberties all over the floor.

:)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: tman on May 15, 2013, 11:33:20 pm: I think part of the problem is you don't really know who's a new player and who isn't. Maybe this is a terrible idea, but if we somehow marked players as new (for example, have the name above their head be orange for the first 5-10 hours of gameplay or something) then it would be easier to know who might need help if you're playing a "good" character and who to send an OOC tell to if you're playing a character that isn't so friendly.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Mariana Xiechai on May 15, 2013, 11:35:54 pm: Quote
Mariana et. al, first, nothing personal since I met you in game both ic and ooc (on gossip) and you were awesome, but you and people similar to you should try to tone down the psychological manipulation/punishment, it's bloody weird and also totally unproductive. If you thought this post was forum bashing - first, it seems you were wrong - and second, how does getting into this dark counter-bashing stuff make your point? It doesn't, it just makes people feel bad and makes them want to leave, as you mention.

It was the case. Your statement that it wasn't is rather invalid. As the forum post was written in such an unproductive and aggressive fashion, I responded to point out the hypocrisy of the situation. As stated, repeatedly, a post with such a title is, in fact, bashing. Whether it was unintentional or not, it's still the case. While I appreciate Waesed's clarification that no rudeness was intended, it still read as rude. I make apologies if he was deeply wounded for a proverbial "shame on you" and a finger wag, but somehow I doubt his life is crumbling to pieces over it, and it certainly wasn't any more hateful than creating an entire post to accuse someone of driving people out of the game. I certainly would never encourage him to leave, as he seems to be a potent force in helping new players on the side of game mechanics, and his wedding Role Play.

As for your former statement, I force no one into the role plays I do, nor do "others like me." If people join, they do so because they get enjoyment out of it, presumably. So no, there is no particular reason for me to do other sorts of role play, or "tone it down." If you actually believe it is all blood and gore and nothing else, you clearly oversimplified it and don't really understand what is going on in such a role play. Some people like Stephen King (whose works are dark, yet typically an interesting exploration of the psyche, and by no means useless), some people like Nicholas Sparks (I'm not a fan personally, but I don't run around bashing people that are, and what can I say, stories of love are powerful things.) That doesn't mean it is "bloody weird and also totally unproductive." As a matter of fact, completely the opposite; characters who do role play with zombies and violence often attract more people because of the friction. Because it's like being in an action novel. The people that get cited repeatedly for good role play that included a lot of people are those like Duraza, Jacula, Marsuveus, and Rigwyn, because it is interesting and engaging to a wider audience. It gives people the chance to play the proverbial roles they always wanted to as a kid for a few moments; the hero or the mustache-twisting villain. Besides, this is the internet. Trust me. They've encountered far worse.

Also, calling someone's hard work and effort, on the part of myself and others who tend towards darker role play, totally unproductive, is bashing. I would have preferred the proverbial finger-wagging shame-on-you.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Phantomboy86 on May 15, 2013, 11:40:57 pm: Quote from: Pierre on May 15, 2013, 11:22:19 pm
and, btw, I thought your response was great and I totally agreed - very glad he didn't meet Rigwyn or that klyros...Travosh? Although he seems quite tamed now...

Pfffft. Tell that to the girl who instantly found herself weighted to the floor with a knife through her skull for speaking not four words to him.

Anyways blah blah unproductive comment noone actually reads all of, needlessly long paragraph of nonsense and charts, accusation of trolling, counter-accusation, failure to appreciate real trolling, exuent phantomboy86.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 16, 2013, 12:09:42 am: This my friends, it what the Planeshift forums are all about. Bitching, bashing, arguing, laughing, trolling, going off topic, getting banned and dramatic exits only to be followed up with unexpected returns. If you get your nuts in a twist, don't feel bad, it happens to all of us regardless of physical gender, or gender identity.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Taya on May 16, 2013, 12:34:45 am: Quote from: tman on May 15, 2013, 11:33:20 pm
I think part of the problem is you don't really know who's a new player and who isn't. Maybe this is a terrible idea, but if we somehow marked players as new (for example, have the name above their head be orange for the first 5-10 hours of gameplay or something) then it would be easier to know who might need help if you're playing a "good" character and who to send an OOC tell to if you're playing a character that isn't so friendly.

I like this idea. I do feel it would need to be expanded on though as it's pretty common for experienced RPers to make new characters for storyline purposes or just for a change of tone in their RP, and I know I for one wouldn't like to get flagged in such a way when on these characters. I don't real enjoy the sort of starting level RP where people tell me I should try and get some armour and so on and it can lead to an awkward bleeding of OOC into the RP as well.

For example, I had a bad experience once with someone insisting my 100+ year old nolthrir had to be taught the very basics about everything as though they were a young child, and it killed the immersion for me. She was over 100! Of course she had some average skill in a few things at least. If you can't make this assumption on a new character, we'd all realistically have to RP as children when starting out. But the judgement was made based on the character's levels which are not immediately visible, whereas a different coloured name would be and would be even more likely to lead to excessive amounts of babying. (Just to make sure this is clear - I absolutely love that we have people who do anything they can to help those who seem new. But if you are not actually new and constantly get treated like you are, to the point where people even make the judgement that you need to be shown very basic RP instead of RP to their usual level, it quickly gets really frustrating. Sure you can /tell and explain, but when it's the start of several encounters in a row it gets tiring quickly.)

Maybe it could be an optional thing to select at character creation. Just something simple like "is this your first time playing?" with yes/no options and you have to select one before entering the game.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Mariana Xiechai on May 16, 2013, 12:38:05 am: Seconded on Tman's idea. As of now, killing a noob and seeing if they pop right back up again behind Harn's is the only sure way, and it's probably not the message we're wanting to send ;D

As for what Taya stated, perhaps it could simply be something that pops up on the OOC tab automatically when checked? New player: Yes or No. In this fashion, sorting through who might need an assist and who might not would be easier, without having to constantly walk over eggshells.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 16, 2013, 01:24:09 am: I don't know. I usually just check to see if they bothered to fill out an IC description. If not, they are likely noobs or its a mule or a quest character. You can predict/estimate much about one's RP by looking at their IC description.

How about flashing the word "Noob" in bright orange over their heads until they've been deflowered so to speak by the community? Say, you loose your Noob status after 3 or 4 people have vouched for you? :)

( Yes, same as tman's idea but a little more degrading xD )
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Mariana Xiechai on May 16, 2013, 01:39:06 am: Quote from: Rigwyn on May 16, 2013, 01:24:09 am

How about flashing the word "Noob" in bright orange over their heads until they've been deflowered so to speak by the community? Say, you loose your Noob status after 3 or 4 people have vouched for you? :)

( Yes, same as tman's idea but a little more degrading xD )

xD That would make me cackle, but I'm pretty sure someone coming off of something as intense as CoD or whathaveyou that screams insults at the screen all the time would probably not appreciate it. They'd want to get that darn orange flashing thing off of it. They'd want to be the best on the server and spend hours leveling their...

Heeeeeeeey. Wait a minute.

THE ANSWER IS REVERSE PSYCHOLOGY! ;D
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 16, 2013, 01:47:23 am: Well, your average noob wouldn't see the NOOB tag anyway since it's flashing over their head... and by the time they figured it out, they'd probably be vouched in by other members who are either terribly embarrassed for them or who have some sense of self imposed moral obligation. You could barter with them too - offering your vouch in exchange for their service to you. Ie... "Noob, go to X, Y, Z, and earn me a glyph and I'll help relive you of your Noobginity". You would be helping them get cemented into the game too.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 16, 2013, 02:08:29 am: Quote from: Pierre on May 15, 2013, 11:04:55 pm
... (which is funny since my char couldn't bear her char back in the day). Cheers.

What? Illysia was nice... bossy but nice. ;D

Quote from: Rigwyn on May 16, 2013, 12:09:42 am
If you get your nuts in a twist, don't feel bad, it happens to all of us regardless of physical gender, or gender identity.

Yes, that would be rather hard for those of us lacking certain parts of anatomy. ;)

Quote from: tman on May 15, 2013, 11:33:20 pm
I think part of the problem is you don't really know who's a new player and who isn't. Maybe this is a terrible idea, but if we somehow marked players as new (for example, have the name above their head be orange for the first 5-10 hours of gameplay or something) then it would be easier to know who might need help if you're playing a "good" character and who to send an OOC tell to if you're playing a character that isn't so friendly.

Not a terrible idea since PS won't have a vibrant enough community to attract those kinds of trolls and griefers for a while yet. I like how Puzzle Pirates handles it. New players have a different color name that fades into the normal color as time passes. So, you are bright green when you start and normal players have yellow or something like that and as the days pass your name becomes more and more yellow.

All you would have to do in PS is make it so that that mechanism only kicks in for new accounts. If you have multiple accounts you can suck it up for a bit. Maybe give a few months of newbie status to account for not playing regularly for your first few months.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 16, 2013, 02:22:00 am: While I liked the fading color idea, it would definitely confuse noobs when they see this over other people's heads. Seeing the word "NOOB" is very easy to understand ( and funnily enough, it would take a long time for them to put 2 and 2 together and wonder if there was one over their head too ) but fading colors... I don't know. Your average noob might not be able to see tell that the color is transitioning and they certainly won't equate orange lets say with noob and yellow with elite.

Often noobs don't even talk, they just stand there and look at you, then run off. I suspect that either most of them are unable to type ( they might be very young ) or are foreign and don't speak the language. I know that in the past I've been an advocate for giving the noobs a hurdle to overcome and letting those who are unable to pass fail ( remember the old tutorial discussion ), but now I'm starting to think that maybe that's just way to complex for new players.

I'm starting to think that perhaps new players need things to be made a whole lot easier for them. Ie. use small words, say things very slowly, don't ask them questions, don't try to get them to make choices. Sort of treat them like you would a small child or an old person until they have had enough time to warm up and figure out that we are talking to one another via the chat box ( in main).
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 16, 2013, 02:31:43 am: They are probably more uninvested than childlike. :p They need to do recon in game before they decide whether or not they wish to go further and start interacting. In most other games newbs are quite active and vocal, but since planeshift is its own weird beast people are cautious at first.

Newbies are pretty good at taking the transition in Puzzle Pirates, I'm sure it could work here too.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 16, 2013, 02:50:17 am: Well, we already have a tutorial that shows them how to do difficult things like crafting and trading items. These are the sorts of things that would leave them banging their heads against the keyboard and chewing their mouse. In all seriousness, maybe more minor steps would help. Some non-material token rewords ( ie. verbal affirmation ) for performing progressively more complex tasks - like typing in a one word response, tpying a two word response, using a noun and a very, using an adjective.

The idea here is that if you reinforce their progress incrementally, they will eventually be able to translate their thoughts into words and vice versa without realizing that they have been trained. The nice thing about the non-material reinforcements is that the are free and won't affect the game economy. This practice might help them in real life too regarding verbal communication. The ability to go from having a desire, to realizing that you need to do something in order to get it does not come easily to everyone. Actually formulating the steps needed to attain that goal and doing a mental walk through to test the proposed idea as a time saving measure could be saved for later on is its very complex stuff.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 16, 2013, 03:01:17 am: Well, you can trying suggesting it in the tutorial remake thread (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=41058.msg463555#msg463555) but I'm pretty sure that the tutorial is being simplified so they should be able to take on other things once they get through it. It seems to be more settings info than teaching them how to craft and whatnot.

The difference here is that I don't think we have to train them like dogs, just make them feel welcome and comfortable to be open. I rarely had problems getting newbies to speak up in the Stonehead but that is because it was a safe haven. They didn't feel they would get jumped for "messing up."
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 16, 2013, 03:03:05 am: Dogs?
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 16, 2013, 03:21:30 am: Too me it comes off as patting them on the head everytime we get them to roll over. But without the treat. :/
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 16, 2013, 04:15:06 am: Well, I see it ultimately as treating them with respect - treating them like they are geniuses only leads to frustration.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 16, 2013, 05:56:34 am: I wouldn't call using the main chat complicated. It might take some time with other tabs but main is no harder than texting or IM. I think players just need to just be a little tolerant of their first forrays into main, no brackets won't kill you, and then quickly teach them the art of asking for help OOCly.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 16, 2013, 06:06:42 am: Many can't read.... come on, its not that hard. I'm just treating them like the smart people that they are.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Tessra on May 16, 2013, 06:47:09 am: Quote from: Rigwyn on May 16, 2013, 01:47:23 am
You could barter with them too - offering your vouch in exchange for their service to you. Ie... "Noob, go to X, Y, Z, and earn me a glyph and I'll help relive you of your Noobginity". You would be helping them get cemented into the game too.

Oh please, oh please, let this be instituted? I would dearly love to help relieve Rigwyn of his false noobginity.

And on a slightly more serious note. It's nothing but illegitimate hypocrisy to launch into an unrelated attack on someone's preference of RP. You don't see "people like us" running about insisting that everyone participate in our RPs. Wanna know why? Because we actually DO have some consideration for the other players in the game. We send them /tells to check up on them (kudos Zalya). We use out-of-the-way locations for a lot of the more intense RPs (kudos Zalya, Mariana, Travosh, Rigwyn, Thidin, Marsuveus, Taya, Karnath, Eonwind, the list goes on and on and on...) And when issues are presented respectfully, and discussed, we compromise (i.e. previous arcs involving dead bodies/zombies/crime in the city have all been modified).

You know what you don't see? You don't see people just maturely choosing not to participate in the RPs that they find offensive, without someone feeling the need to try and censor the entire community because they want to throw a tea party for Barney, Tinky-Winky, Winnie-the-Pooh and everyone else that wants to sit at the kiddie table. To all the people who DO handle this type of thing maturely, you have my deepest and profoundest respect. To the whiners? Time to take a good look in the mirror. Saying "You shouldn't RP Situation X because it offends/bothers/disturbs/interrupts/etc/etc/etc my favorite type of RP" is complete and utter rivnak dung.

One: What makes you think you have the right to tell another person what they can or cannot do, if it doesn't fall outside the rules of PS?

Guess what? You don't. You don't have that power, you don't have that right. And there's one hell of a big difference between ASKING someone to move to a different location, or to not involve you in something you don't like and TELLING them they shouldn't be able to express themselves or that they should change their entire RP style.

Two: Why is it acceptable for you to try and make other people conform to your idea of fun RP?

Guess what? It's not. It's hypocritical. You wouldn't like it if someone said you had to RP in their angsty/fussy/dark RP. I happen to despise mundane tavern-talk RPs. I only find them remotely tolerable if there is a character there that has an interesting personality. But that doesn't give me the right to come here and say that everyone who does that type of RP is not creative enough to come up with something more fun that suits MY taste, or that they should try to bring more spice to their RPs. Which would be why you've never seen me insul t the players who prefer that type of RP. I let them do their own thing.

Three: Why can't you whiny people have enough common courtesy to extend to others the same rights that are extended to you?

There are so many wonderful people in this community who are amazing Rpers, and who don't come on here just to whine, but the few who do? Yeah, you ruin the game for others. I've watched countless RPs get shut down, or OOCly cancelled because someone whined about how it infringed upon their personal rights. Ugh. Get over yourselves. How many decent RPers are you going to have to run off before you learn how to play nice in the sandbox?
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 16, 2013, 07:24:16 am: Quote from: Tessra on May 16, 2013, 06:47:09 am
Oh please, oh please, let this be instituted? I would dearly love to help relieve Rigwyn of his false noobginity.

Hellow Milady! Me name's Legolas of Dragonspire. How fare ye this fine day? I've come from a village with grassy hills and lots of charred cottages in search of new meaning, some dignity, and to try me hand and being a hero! So what's the name of this fine village? Tudorville? PlaneshiftTown?

*waits 10 seconds*

Can I tempt ye with me services Milady? I can cobble primitive shoes and play Greensleeves on the lute. I can use magicks from kingdoms far away but only spells that bestow-ith unlimited magickal protections from those who hateth.

* Begins casting a defensive spell... "Divine-Overarching-Aetherdome-Shield-of -Avalon" with a twist of "Uber-Megaregerating-Snow-Storm-of-Oz" and a smidgen of "I'll-Whine-To-A-GM-If-You-Disagree-With-Me"

(http://www.francescaphillips.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/White-Monk-print.jpg)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Eonwind on May 16, 2013, 08:43:22 am: Quote from: Rigwyn on May 16, 2013, 02:50:17 am
The idea here is that if you reinforce their progress incrementally, they will eventually be able to translate their thoughts into words and vice versa without realizing that they have been trained. The nice thing about the non-material reinforcements is that the are free and won't affect the game economy. This practice might help them in real life too regarding verbal communication. The ability to go from having a desire, to realizing that you need to do something in order to get it does not come easily to everyone. Actually formulating the steps needed to attain that goal and doing a mental walk through to test the proposed idea as a time saving measure could be saved for later on is its very complex stuff.
wait... wait... are you saying noobs are stupid? Do you think they come from a different planet than your? If it's a joke I didn't get it, if it's not I totally disagree.
People most of the time don't speak because are shy and because they're afraid of being mistreated or belittled just because they're less experienced.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 16, 2013, 08:51:38 am: Gathering wiggly antennas and lard, making tarts, moonie-esc retreats... playing the bard...

These are tasks that that might be extremely challenging for a newbie. I think that to make the game more enjoyable for them, players need to bend a little more.... dumb it down, show them your cards, so to speak.

I think that by doing these, we're treating them like honored guests - who we clearly wish to encourage.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Pakarro on May 16, 2013, 09:23:06 am: Wouldn't it be nice if a newcomer could switch on some sign above his/her/kras name (e.g. a question mark) to show they need some assistance? Then experienced players who feel like it could help, and others leave them alone.... An automatic marker is nonsense, when you have all the alts calling for help....
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Taya on May 16, 2013, 09:41:10 am: Hmm.. I still remain a big fan of typing "/tell MaybeANoob Hello! I don't think I met you before. Are you a new player?" and then taking it from there. I've had people reply to this and then ask me OOC questions about the game in /tells, and even had one who deleted and remade his character entirely once we'd talked about the RP in PS because he wanted to make sure it was a character he'd be able to role-play. The questions I have had in reply have mostly been intelligent ones in general either way, ranging from this example to the more basic "is this game good?" "how many people play?" "how much RP actually happens?" "is it really free or will I need to pay for the best items?" These are all questions someone might want to have answers to before learning too much about the annoying little details of how PS works. Why invest too much until you have an idea that you might want to stay?

And if they don't answer the /tell, that seems the best time to switch the OOC into main a little.(I use brackets when doing so even if alone with the 'noob' because it can never hurt to start off the 'brackets = OOC' association when used in main as soon as possible.)

Regarding everything Tessra said about types of RP and which are right/wrong - full and absolute agreement. This community would probably not feel quite so small if all of the little factions with their 'preferences' would just stop bashing each other and look for some common ground instead.

I'm largely in Tessra's position with regard to what kind of RP I do/don't like and one of the reasons I have mostly withdrawn from 'serious' RP is because I haven't been able to find any that consistently goes on in my timezone and all that I seem to find is tavern-talk and helping people learn how to do things. No plots with depth. It's hugely frustrating for me as an RPer, but I still always respond to people who approach me with these kinds of things. I would certainly never tell them they need to change their RP style in order to interact with me.

It's basic decency really and also because I recognise that people change how they RP and interact with others over time. I'd go as far as saying that, if approached by someone trying to RP, it's always better to respond IC to them, even if it's just an IC method of distancing yourself from that RP because you don't favour it - because you never know when that same RPer might instead do some RP you would like and which you otherwise might have on some level excluded yourself from.

If you don't like 'darker' themed RP, then it stands to reason you'll be playing a character who doesn't want to be tied up in those things as well. Have your character decide to limit their involvement. It doesn't take much to type "/me stares blankly at RandomBadGuy, excuses themself quickly and walks away" or even "/me looks carefully at RandomBadWoman, then looks away and continues with blahblahThingTheyWereDoing." It can always be accompanied by a quick /tell just to make sure it's understood, but it's easy to acknowledge an RP without it overtaking your own.

Quick edit - Pakarro, that is exactly what I'd be in favour of. I have often used low level alt characters to 'help' people from and that would really fail if a had a big flashing NOOB sign over my own head at the time. :)
Let it be an optional selector on character creation if anything at all.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 16, 2013, 10:12:52 am: Maybe a quick fix for those too afraid to ask for help is putting a tiny OOC note into your description referring new players to your OOC tab where you can have a FAQ that features answers to the questions that you have been asked or have been asked around you. The thought there is that you'll either run into the same new people or you might find groups of new people in your timezone with the same questions, so rather than give the A-Z on Planeshift, just address those questions which frequently occur around you. You can also have the note inviting people to ask questions like many already have.

But, this way they don't have to be self conscious about asking you something right off the bat and if they feel you are helpful they might relax enough to approach you.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Volki on May 16, 2013, 12:51:25 pm: Rigwyn, you've got to be joking about implementing a noob label.

Quote from: Mariana Xiechai on May 15, 2013, 11:35:54 pm
Quote
Something, something, psychological manipulation/punishment...
Words, words... I'm misreading and overreacting!

Also, calling someone's hard work and effort, on the part of myself and others who tend towards darker role play, totally unproductive, is bashing. I would have preferred the proverbial finger-wagging shame-on-you.

I don't get how you do this. Okay, maybe I do. But I'm pretty sure Pierre wasn't ever talking about your roleplay preferences. I think he was referencing how you manipulated this thread to seem as if cdmoreland was a disingenuous villain. So... I checked his profile. He's 61 years old. Old people don't lie. They tell so much truth it comes out awkward and slightly offensive.

Like, you can literally gauge the likelihood someone is lying by knowing their age.

Young ------------------------------------------------------- Old
Liar ---------------------------------------------------- Truth...er
Ebonwumon | Volki | Mariana | Illysia | Tessra | Rigwyn | cdmoreland

Quote from: Tessra on May 16, 2013, 06:47:09 am
Saying "You shouldn't RP Situation X because it offends/bothers/disturbs/interrupts/etc/etc/etc my favorite type of RP" is complete and utter rivnak dung.

Wow, really? Guess it isn't rivnak dung when it comes to me, is it? And then I just realized I totally misread that sentence because there are too many //////. I can't even get offended properly anymore. Whatever. I'm still going to react emotionally and get all mad anyway. Never miss out on a chance to be mad!

I'm going to cry myself to sleep now. Night night.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: LigH on May 16, 2013, 01:26:27 pm: Because tears don't lie? ;D

Sorry. :-[

But I don't believe that the (physical) age is the only criterion of maturity.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 16, 2013, 01:50:13 pm: The new players need something simpler, they can't handle learning role play. The don't bother to read before the tutorial is started. Perhaps simplistic videos might help them get started?
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: novacadian on May 16, 2013, 02:46:51 pm: Quote from: Pakarro on May 16, 2013, 09:23:06 am
Wouldn't it be nice if a newcomer could switch on some sign above his/her/kras name (e.g. a question mark) to show they need some assistance? Then experienced players who feel like it could help, and others leave them alone.... An automatic marker is nonsense, when you have all the alts calling for help....

That kind of is installed. Even as a, somewhat, experience player the /help command has caught me the odd time when going in expecting a more robust definition on a subject and remembering it actually sends it out to the help channel. The trick is to have those that can supply that help listening. :)

- Nova
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Mariana Xiechai on May 16, 2013, 04:11:07 pm: Quote
That kind of is installed. Even as a, somewhat, experience player the /help command has caught me the odd time when going in expecting a more robust definition on a subject and remembering it actually sends it out to the help channel. The trick is to have those that can supply that help listening. :)

- Nova

I wonder how hard it would be to bump the help channel up a few notches on the chat tabs. Why? Because frankly just getting it to open that far takes up like, a quarter of the screen. I never even see the help tab because it's always in the bottomless abyss somewhere beyond Alliance chat. We should put the less productive things down there. Like gossip. ;D In all seriousness though it might actually help to put it higher on the charts, as it were.

On a (sort of?) side note, I think implementing an instruction "manual" on how to manipulate the chat tabs in settings might be helpful. That's almost always one of the first questions. A lot of new players actually can't read /tells because they don't even know why the whisper tab is blinking. (Or sometimes it isn't even there at all.) I can't even count how many times I've guided people through which boxes to click to figure that puppy out.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: cdmoreland on May 16, 2013, 07:22:29 pm: There is more action here than in the game! ;D

I've mentioned the chat tabs many times in the Dev's meetings, but they think they have it right already.

I've tried to use /tell many times, but they mostly answer me in Main. It is confusing, at first, to even use the different tabs.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 16, 2013, 10:05:12 pm: Quote from: cdmoreland on May 16, 2013, 07:22:29 pm
There is more action here than in the game! ;D

Been that way for years. ;)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Volki on May 16, 2013, 11:18:15 pm: Welcome to the scale, LigH.

Young > Old
Liar > Truth-teller
Ebonwumon | Volki | Mariana | Illysia | Tessra | LigH | Rigwyn | cdmoreland

(It's also had a fabulous update.)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 16, 2013, 11:26:32 pm: You changed the colors ... Without breaking it!
You should work for microsoft.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 17, 2013, 12:46:24 am: ;D I'm in the middle.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: novacadian on May 17, 2013, 01:22:59 am: Quote from: Illysia on May 17, 2013, 12:46:24 am
;D I'm in the middle.

Need more room omn the right for my age :)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: tman on May 17, 2013, 01:34:27 am: How are we supposed to trust that your scale is accurate when you're so far on the "Liar" side?

But if your scale isn't accurate, then maybe you're telling the truth. But that would mean you're a liar...

I'm gunna need a bit to think about this ???
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Mariana Xiechai on May 17, 2013, 05:40:31 am: Quote from: Volki on May 16, 2013, 11:18:15 pm
Welcome to the scale, LigH.

Young > Old
Liar > Truth-teller
Ebonwumon | Volki | Mariana | Illysia | Tessra | LigH | Rigwyn | cdmoreland

(It's also had a fabulous update.)

You forgot like, one of the most famous old dudes ever! Tut tut tut!

(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/36841466.jpg)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Tessra on May 17, 2013, 05:58:14 am: Quote from: Volki on May 16, 2013, 11:18:15 pm
Young > Old
Liar > Truth-teller
Ebonwumon | Volki | Mariana | Illysia | Tessra | LigH | Rigwyn | cdmoreland

(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee57/judoangel/tumblr_maq0abRfJy1r4v34qo4_r1_250.gif) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/judoangel/media/tumblr_maq0abRfJy1r4v34qo4_r1_250.gif.html)

But yes, to clarify that, Volki... let me tell you a little story. There was once a bakery. And in this bakery, the bakers made hundreds of different kinds of bread. Sweet breads, sourdough breads, rye breads, wheat breads. And they even made plain, white bread. But one day, a customer came in, and complained about the white bread. He didn't like it. It tasted too bland, it wasn't pretty enough. He just found it revolting, for his own personal reasons. And so, he began to demand that the bakers never again make white bread. He picketed outside the bakery, and harassed any other customers that went in to buy white bread. He yelled at them because he didn't like it, and didn't think they should either. He said that no white bread should ever be allowed in that bakery because it was offensive. That white bread was an infringement on his rights as a carbohydrate consuming customer!

Sounds pretty dumb doesn't it?

You don't have to like it. You don't have to do it. But common decency is to allow other people the same rights you expect to exercise yourself. Whether it be eating white bread, or RPing your own favorite kind of RPs. So in my opinion, it is complete crap to try and tell someone they shouldn't RP something they like, because I may not like it. I hate tavern RP. I've said it many times. But it isn't right or fair for me to try and say that no one should do it because it's boring. If it's fun for you, more power to you.

Live and let live. RP and let RP. There is a difference in being courteous and respectful, and being a filthy hippie sitting around a campfire, singing kumbaya and expecting everyone to get along all the time.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Moja Aere on May 17, 2013, 06:33:21 am: Just a small, useless note: ok, I admit that I haven't read every-everything, but right now I have this image squatting my mind: a cage containing a character with the word 'noob' flashing on his/her/kra's head and many other characters outside, with, instead, the word 'Proper Character' flashing on their heads, pointing and looking at the caged char, whispering, jumping and wandering all around the cage.
I don't know if what is said in the first post can really run a new player off but while figuring it out maybe it'd be nice to read what some real new player think about the whole thread.
Of course, if a 8-page thread about what should/shouldn't run them off won't however run them off :P
(No offence to anyone: my opinion is that discussions are always - or, at least, often - great; I just think - and I might be wrong! - that, from time to time, it could be useful not only explain, guess and suggest but also simply ask :) )
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 17, 2013, 06:47:37 am: I was kidding about the Noob tag.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Moja Aere on May 17, 2013, 06:55:49 am: Sure :) . And I really didn't mean to criticize nor you nor anyone else! And, again, I don't think I'm saying anything really significant. Just wanted to say that it was strange, to me, to read pages and pages of explanations and no questions to 'thread's stars'! :)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: LigH on May 17, 2013, 08:51:38 am: :o What? I am only a little more honest than Tessra? ... And less honest than Rigwyn? ... No, this is the proof that there is no direct relation between age and intentions.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 17, 2013, 10:15:38 am: Relativity could screw with this further.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Eonwind on May 17, 2013, 11:04:45 am: Quote from: Moja Aere on May 17, 2013, 06:33:21 am
Just a small, useless note: ok, I admit that I haven't read every-everything, but right now I have this image squatting my mind: a cage containing a character with the word 'noob' flashing on his/her/kra's head and many other characters outside, with, instead, the word 'Proper Character' flashing on their heads, pointing and looking at the caged char, whispering, jumping and wandering all around the cage.
I don't know if what is said in the first post can really run a new player off but while figuring it out maybe it'd be nice to read what some real new player think about the whole thread.
Of course, if a 8-page thread about what should/shouldn't run them off won't however run them off :P
(No offence to anyone: my opinion is that discussions are always - or, at least, often - great; I just think - and I might be wrong! - that, from time to time, it could be useful not only explain, guess and suggest but also simply ask :) )
yeah Moja your small note is pretty useless ;D maybe if it was larger I may have seen some truth in it ;D
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: novacadian on May 17, 2013, 12:37:10 pm: Quote from: Tessra on May 17, 2013, 05:58:14 am
There is a difference in being courteous and respectful, and being a filthy hippie sitting around a campfire, singing kumbaya and expecting everyone to get along all the time.

Hey! I resemble that remark! Not all hippies are filthy! ;)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Volki on May 17, 2013, 01:55:40 pm: Nice gif, Tessra... I totally got what you meant. It just took me 10 minutes of rage and stupidity to realize that I misread your post and my response would probably further establish that I am insane.

Young > Old
Liar > Truth-teller
Ebonwumon | Volki | Mariana | Illysia | Tessra | Eonwind | LigH | Rigwyn | cdmoreland | novacadian

Updated the Age-Truth Scale.

Sooo, that "little" story reminded me of Amy's Baking Company (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XjgHEctcy0) from Kitchen Nightmares. In this case, the angry customer would have a good point.

And that reminds me of something else. Yeah, you can roleplay what you like. But sometimes, I think, you guys (Tessra, Mariana, Wulfar, other people whose names I wish I could remember) roleplay topics that are way too intense for casual players. You have a tendency to get gritty. It's not violence I mean. It's like... This psychological trauma drama.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 17, 2013, 03:36:23 pm: Quote from: Volki on May 17, 2013, 01:55:40 pm
But sometimes, I think, you guys (Tessra, Mariana, Wulfar, other people whose names I wish I could remember) roleplay topics that are way too intense for casual players. You have a tendency to get gritty. It's not violence I mean. It's like... This psychological trauma drama.

Well, since it's been brought up... I'm kinda with Sarras here. It's too much for me too which is why I just sorta went by the sides RPwise. I realized that none of my characters really have a place on most of the going RPs and I don't want to be a part of them. So I just found other things to do since it is harder to establish the rapport needed to do not boring tavern RPs.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Mariana Xiechai on May 17, 2013, 06:01:33 pm: Quote
Relativity could screw with this further.

That could probably create an entire thread in and of itself. ;D
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Zalya on May 18, 2013, 12:09:27 am: I think I have proven that I have a very varied taste in RP :P I love the dark gritty stuff that makes me think all night long, but a lazy tavern RP or something humorous also catches my attention. In fact, there is very little RP that I will avoid.

Rigwyn actually has this handy little post here (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=40438.msg453165#msg453165) that is meant to help sort out some of these preferences before colliding in game. I find it useful.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Tessra on May 18, 2013, 02:32:12 am: Quote from: Volki on May 17, 2013, 01:55:40 pm
So, maybe you should keep the sensitive topics to yourselves... Or at least warn other people before diving into traumatic shit that you know not everyone is comfortable with. Because every time I roleplay with you, it's like walking through a lovely field of tall grass and sunflowers, but it's FILLED WITH FRIGGIN SNAKES.

I will agree with you 100% on a few things here. There are those of us who have been RPing together for a couple years now, and we're very comfortable with each other. We know what *we* like in our RPs, and we know what boundaries not to cross for *us.* So it doesn't always occur to us that other people might not like the heavier topics. Quite often we do tend to keep to ourselves, simply because we don't always like fluff n' stuff RPs. There is a reason that we're often to be found on rooftops or in dungeons and sewers. (And it isn't just the kickass graphic glitches or the thrill of taunting the GM-guards to 'port us out.)

Let me ask you something though. How many times have you ever heard someone come up to one of us and say "Hey man, I'd love to RP with you, but I'm really not up for dark and creepy tonight. Could we go a bit lighter, maybe?" I've never heard it myself. But I'd like to think I'm at least marginally considerate enough that if someone asked me nicely/politely/at least without sarcasm-ly I'd at least think about it.

What I do see happening a lot is someone walks up, in the middle of an already on-going, and typically serious, conversation and tosses out a random greeting or comment, without pausing to listen to what is happening. Now, a new player? (And in these situations, you can pretty easily tell if someone is new...) For them, my character will usually deadpan, stare at them like their nutters and ask them, albeit reluctantly, if they need help with something.

This is where players like Zalya and Mariana are leagues above and beyond me with sending /tells and talking to the players, trying to make sure they know it's not personal, only IC, and being all-around friendly. I'm shy. I don't like sending strangers /tells. I don't really even like to approach characters I don't know the players of. Deep down, I'm still that little girl in pigtails who got pushed down on the playground and sat in the sand crying until her mommy picked her up. But I am at least willing to try and reach out to someone to make sure they aren't upset by it.

Back to the above... I'm not a big fan of established characters walking up obliviously into things and not reacting ICly. I suppose I expect a bit more from them. Some players, like Elrbye (I know I butchered that spelling. Where are you, you giant hulking menki?! You know you want a cuddle!), Sacho, and Monala are just amazing at walking up, giving a realistic greeting/intro, and then observing and jumping in with the reaction. I give them mad props for going with the flow.

So yeah, all of that to say... what Volki and Illysia said just now? Nice, polite, not accusatory, or abrasive. THAT type of comment or request? Yeah, you say that, and I'm more than willing to tone my RP down to play around you. I have no problems compromising so that everyone can have fun. And I'm pretty sure that the rest of the dark and gritty crowd (aside from Rigwyn, who we all know couldn't get his mind out of the creepy-scary-gutter :p ) would be willing to tone things down on our main scaries, or use more jovial alts for the benefit of all, at least occasionally. No, we're not going to all start using the organic hemp wash ( Ven, wink-wink-nudge-nudge) and switching to vegans (that means you, Ikon), but we're not unreasonable. You will always catch more flies with honey-scented flypaper, and being nice about it makes us more inclined to be accommodating.

Now then, I have a menki to shave, a diaboli to snatch the dreds off and two klyros to turn into a matching pair of boots. Toodles!
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Mariana Xiechai on May 18, 2013, 03:30:02 am: Quote
So yeah, all of that to say... what Volki and Illysia said just now? Nice, polite, not accusatory, or abrasive. THAT type of comment or request? Yeah, you say that, and I'm more than willing to tone my RP down to play around you.

Ditto.

Quote
or use more jovial alts for the benefit of all, at least occasionally

Also ditto. Ditto like the damn pokemon.

(http://i.qkme.me/35f6ux.jpg)

Though I have to say frankly most of it is hindsight, and the lovely 20/20. I don't really run large scale role play any longer. I wouldn't be too terribly worried about it in regards to it any longer. I got nothin' left to give. I am, as they say, whipped. (No awkward jokes kids.) My creative tinker is tinkered out! So I apologize for any former discomfiture, but it shouldn't be an issue in the future.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Volki on May 18, 2013, 03:38:02 am: no
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Mariana Xiechai on May 18, 2013, 03:51:21 am: Quote
Mariana and Wulfar's characters have gone through a lot. And when I'm in the same guild with them or at least the same general group of roleplayers, I hear about those characters' pasts often. It's not that the subject is too heavy for me. It's that it's too relevant. Do you get what I mean now?

Somehow, I find it hard to believe you would hear about it quite that much. (I could be wrong, though, and often am.) As you might suspect of someone in reality, my characters at least don't tend to walk up and word vomit their stories all over people. I certainly cannot recall a time when any of them would have opened up to Sarras. I could be wrong on Mariana...but somehow I doubt it. It could be via hearsay, though. I based my character's story around a book, actually, which might explain the asserted relevance. I tend to dumb down and filter what I have her explain, and who she explains it to. As Tessra mentioned, only to friends. Unfortunately, many of those friends were in the Adani Order, as that is where the character found a lot of her growth. When you've already been roleplaying that sort of character with people who are totally comfortable with it for a year, and someone new pops in, it doesn't occur to you somebody might get upset. As far as I knew, I was doing a fairly decent job of being vague and only interacting with specific people on such topics. But it's good to know it leaks easily. At the time I created her character, many people had similar backstories from what I could tell, so I merely assumed it was the norm.

But I reiterate hindsight of 20/20. I don't even play Mariana anymore, frankly. And Evirea's backstory is un-relatable to most. I don't really approach others for Role Play any longer. I no longer have the energy to do so. And well, you know, Wulfar's essentially quit. It's something I'll look out for in the future. So there you go.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 18, 2013, 04:14:28 am: Quote from: Volki on May 18, 2013, 03:38:02 am
It's that it's too relevant. Do you get what I mean now?

You mean it hits too close to home?

For me, certain things don't matter much, but the dark/creepy/gritty is where I draw the line personally. I'm from a completely different school of RP and for the most part people find the RPs I do boring or the kind they can only do in small bursts. I prefer lighter character driven RPs to plot and location driven RPs. Goodness knows in the past I used to RP everywhere from the BD to the dungeon and I used to fall/pass/shift in and out of other people's stories, but it kinda doesn't matter to me where it is or whether the RP is deliberately "going somewhere" as long as it gets somewhere eventually and I get to interact with distinct characters who have varied reactions to the same "prompt". For me, just watching two characters wittily quip at each other or two character that have really good/bad chemistry bounce off each other was enough to keep me happy for hours. Providing no one died at least.

But it looks like now people want a story more so than a character study, so it kinda doesn't matter what I do, I just don't really fit into many RPs anymore. My characters are typically bit players, the kind that add color to the location or situation but not the kind that typically advance plots or wade too deeply into them. If you want an opinion, I have several characters good for that and they can all give you a different opinion because they are all distinctly different from each other, but if you want them to pick up a sword or go track someone down... eh... not so good for that.

All of that being said, I do however do soap operas really well. It's the closest I get to plots, but I don't have the rapport or the variety of characters needed to do those anymore. But I do like them because though they have a distinct narrative, you don't have to work the story out. They have a tendency to direct themselves. The only frustrating part is that as a player and not someone watching TV, you have no clue what is going on in the other parts of story since you can't just switch cameras and follow the other players. :p ...unless you are a Dev or GM. I did manage to get one or two of them to stop, follow, and watch my characters go through the drama of their ordeals after other players that had a part in the story had left. XD Used to get a fair bit of eavesdropping players to stop and listen as well.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Volki on May 18, 2013, 04:18:10 am: no
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Mariana Xiechai on May 18, 2013, 04:26:50 am: Quote
why I tried to avoid you. Maybe I'm the problem and I'm too thin-skinned.

I'm not entirely sure that I would go so far as to call you thin-skinned. I have, as to the best of my ability, tried to make sure I did such RPs in /tells or in exceedingly obscure locations. There are a sparse number of people who've gotten any full recount of events that I'm aware of. I apologize if you were upset, as it certainly wasn't my intent. As for avoidance, I didn't notice. You never mentioned anything, and never seemed to have qualms about approaching me for role play, so I never had a clue at all that there was an issue. You are welcome to tell me. I am open to hearing such a thing. I shall try to make it more private if it's an issue in the future, but as I said, I don't really approach new people for role play any longer. I have neither the gusto nor the confidence. All I can do is offer an apology for past events I cannot change.

Quote
All of that being said, I do however do soap operas really well. It's the closest I get to plots, but I don't have the rapport or the variety of characters needed to do those anymore.

I don't mind character dramas, and I don't mind character exploration. In fact, character exploration is one of my favorite types of role play, I enjoy digging into a personality. Often the level of enjoyment also flows with the story as well, the one that forms as you get to know such a character.

I am not against light hearted Role Play. I'm not even against soft and fluffy. But I'm also a soft and fluffy snob. That is to say, I'm a total sap at heart, but if the characters don't grow and develop to create their report with one another, be it love or just really deep friendship, it comes out as hollow for me. It's why I can't read a lot of romance novels and enjoy them. However, if there's a story along with the constructive of the relationship...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cULvtpaIK9I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cULvtpaIK9I)

Well then I'm all over that. (I love that movie so much...)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 18, 2013, 08:55:25 am: Quote from: Mariana Xiechai on May 18, 2013, 04:26:50 am
I am not against light hearted Role Play. I'm not even against soft and fluffy. But I'm also a soft and fluffy snob. That is to say, I'm a total sap at heart, but if the characters don't grow and develop to create their report with one another, be it love or just really deep friendship, it comes out as hollow for me. It's why I can't read a lot of romance novels and enjoy them. However, if there's a story along with the constructive of the relationship...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cULvtpaIK9I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cULvtpaIK9I)

Well then I'm all over that. (I love that movie so much...)

See that's just it, there aren't enough people to make that kind of RP work. You need multiple intersecting friendships, romances, family connections, ect. and there just aren't enough people willing to spend time forming those connections because they confuse that kind of RP with talking about the most inane things. That's why often it doesn't go anywhere. There's no rapport, no consistency, no substance which will allow a story to develop, and often times there just aren't the right characters. RP characters are like people some have the right chemistry and some don't. That is why more of such characters are needed. You need exposure to find the right character to help develop a story.

But most people would rather an action kind of story. It's what I used to call episodic(like TV episodes) RP versus saga RP(like a book). They seem to want a story that can be started and resolved in one sitting, leave them on the edge of their seat, and then come back and start a new one next time that may or may not be related to the last. I can't really do that, I need time to get steam going and then I want to see where it goes by letting it meander. If you have well developed characters with complex chemistry, even meandering turns up some pretty interesting stuff.

In the past, I had really wanted to create a Caterean clan where players created family members, blood relation or married, and then play out the family dynamics in game. There would have been weddings, intrigues, funny/embarrasing tales of the past, a drunk uncle, a loud aunt, so on and so forth... but it just never panned out. Shame. :/ I really miss the kind of character to character RPing I used to do. Honestly it's why I keep coming back. I keep hoping that one of these times I'll find it again.

Quote from: Mariana Xiechai on May 18, 2013, 04:26:50 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cULvtpaIK9I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cULvtpaIK9I)

Well then I'm all over that. (I love that movie so much...)

Keanu... :D *cough* umm... I mean, that looks like a really sweet movie and I would like to see it now.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 18, 2013, 09:05:19 am: Quote
So, maybe you should keep the sensitive topics to yourselves... Or at least warn other people before diving into traumatic shit that you know not everyone is comfortable with.

NO. End of discussion.
If you don't like it, f*ck you.

What I would strongly suggest for anyone here who doesn't like the RP that is currently happening is to be proactive and start your own RP. If someone joins and gets too dark, gritty or whatever, then politely send them a PM asking them to conform to your group. If you wish to have further control, then RP in an isolated place - this was done in the RCD way back when, and other well established RP groups have done similar things to control the content.

One thing that works is making a post on one of the town message board threads or making an ooc announcement on the forum. You can also spread word via tells, gossip or PM. You have options; use them.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 18, 2013, 09:08:50 am: I can kinda see your point Rig but there is no need to go digging up trauma for other people. A warning isn't too much to ask in that case. Trauma is a very real problem and not just being a pansy.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 18, 2013, 09:13:47 am: How would you like it if people told you that you had to issue a "violence not welcome here" warning to everyone who stopped by? Sorry, that's asinine.

It was explained numerous times, that many of us use .... REMOTE LOCATIONS... to remove us from those who might find our RP objectionable. Somehow that point seems to get missed.

If your character stubles into an RP and you do not wish to participate, you are always more than welcome to opt out. I think that's been common knowledge since I started to RP here.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 18, 2013, 09:19:34 am: I think I could make that adjustment without getting my undies in a twist. ;) I had to do just that during running the Stonehead and RCD. Someone was always trying to bring that kind of stuff in and those were not the places for those kinds of RP.

And she isn't saying do it all the time, and she's not saying that there aren't times when it's fair game to get exposed. But she is asking others to be mindful. Taking a little extra effort won't kill anyone.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 18, 2013, 09:28:17 am: What, each time someone runs close, I have to backspace over what I was typing and then give them a warning? No. We're not talking about RP that's disallowed on the server or anything.

WARNING: You should ask your mommy if it's ok to RP with us.

CAUTION: Exposure to this rp may result in feeling something. If this is problematic, then you should avoid all forms of art at all costs while you're at it.

WARNING: This is not the fifth anual Teletubbies festival. If you're looking for Tinky Winky, he's in Kada El's showing Allelia his purple proboscis.

You did the right thing when you ran the Stonehead. You had a specific genre that you wanted everyone to stick to, so you found a spot, set up camp and let everyone know. You didn't mull through the sewers and ask people to stop their rp and have a tea party. You didn't go to camp banished and insist that everyone stop and change.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 18, 2013, 09:37:04 am: Technically, all you have to do is put a / in front of the line you are writing, enter, type the new text and enter it, then use the up arrow in chat to recall the line you were working on. ;) I did it often.

I don't think anyone is talking about going to camp banished and trying to set up goodie RP, but despite this not being a teletubbie convention, this isn't a dark gritty settings game either. Either extreme is actually outside of the range of the baseline, so as a compromise both sides can be mindful of the other. People who can't take that stuff can avoid certain places and people who do like the gritty traumatic stuff can avoid certain places and when in doubt give people a heads up that you are about to risk traumatizing them or give them saccharine poisoning. ;)

I had a tendency to do the sweet lovey dovey stuff in out of the way places too, mind you, at the time Kada's was so empty that it counted as out of the way as well. :/ It was kinda weird not having to worry about ANYONE over hearing you.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 18, 2013, 09:42:21 am: Quote
...this isn't a dark gritty settings game either. Either extreme is actually outside of the range of the baseline

Can you please support this? Do you have a quote?

The way I see it, the settings support dark RP, so its fine. Read the blackflame books, read about Dakkru.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 18, 2013, 09:54:14 am: Ok, I'll give you that, right before Xil and UTM left they were in the process of grittying up the settings. I keep forgetting to factor in settings updates. The settings was lighter back when I spent more time reading them. But by the same token you can say the teletubbies have a place as well as the Octarchy tries to stamp out anything that would make their lands' image less than pristine. Thus everyone compromising.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 18, 2013, 09:59:34 am: The Teletubbies have their place in Kada El's along with the epic pokemon battlers... who have left since then... Still, that's the place for that sort of thing :)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Volki on May 18, 2013, 11:24:48 am: no
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 18, 2013, 11:31:02 am: Ah...ok, I see what you mean now. Sorry.

Its tricky... its not like we can put a fence around ourselves with a warning sign on it. We could warn that we're going to be talking about X and Y only to find out later that someone has an issue with Z
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Taya on May 18, 2013, 01:13:03 pm: Quote from: Rigwyn on May 18, 2013, 09:13:47 am
It was explained numerous times, that many of us use .... REMOTE LOCATIONS... to remove us from those who might find our RP objectionable. Somehow that point seems to get missed.

I know there are strong reasons for this, but this is also problematic in itself. What about those of us who WANT to find these RPs but then never ever stumble onto them, precisely because they are being held in such remote locations?

I remember when I started playing it was much easier to just walk into in depth ongoing plotlines and get involved. Now I can't find any, yet I'm hearing complaints that there are too many of them and not enough of the other kinds of RPs, yet all I come across are those other kinds. I'm really finding it hard to just blame timezone differences, though I know this is a big factor at least. Another factor is that people seem to want to RP with Taya sometimes, but when I ask if I can play an alt instead they lose all interest and don't want to RP anymore.

I have now mostly quit RP because of this. I just don't have the energy to invest in wandering round for hours a night and going away dissatisfied almost every time. Even the 'tavern RP' I have found is generally flat and unengaging, and believe me, I have tried to persevere with these RPs as well. But in all, it means that the RP I really do enjoy being so hidden is a big factor in pushing me out of the game.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 18, 2013, 01:37:37 pm: Quote
I know there are strong reasons for this, but this is also problematic in itself. What about those of us who WANT to find these RPs but then never ever stumble onto them, precisely because they are being held in such remote locations?

It's not really ideal, I agree. Let me give an example of how I would do it. I would do any sort of planning for BF activity in the temple or some other well controlled area. This made sense ICly and helped reduce the changes of OOC leaking.

For murders, robberies, crimes etc, they would be done in remote locations or semi-remote locations mainly for IC reasons. For example, you can't bash someone in front of a guard -- from an IC perspective, the guards would own your ass and lock you up. Since there are no GMs to play the guards, you have to just do stuff like this away from them. Some of us would call this respecting the settings.

For all other stuff, I prefer to do things in the open so that others can overhear things, get involved, interdict and so on.

Quote
I'm really finding it hard to just blame timezone differences, though I know this is a big factor at least. Another factor

There are a lot less "leaders" playing. Very few people take the lead. Anyone can do it, but few do. I would say that for most, its hard to do for personal reasons such as fear of being criticism, fear of failure or screwing up badly, insecurity about not really knowing how to take the lead, etc. Sometimes the problem is that only the baddies have leaders or only the goodies have leaders.

Quote
is that people seem to want to RP with Taya sometimes, but when I ask if I can play an alt instead they lose all interest and don't want to RP anymore.

I don't know about your particular case, but I've seen this quite often. Sometimes its simply because people want to play with well established characters like Taya. Sometimes its because there is less at stake when you use an alt as opposed to your main. The thinking goes like this: "I'm going to risk getting my main in terrible trouble, but you are not putting anything at risk because you are using an alt." I think the best thing to do is to talk to the people in question and find out what their thoughts are on the matter.

I used to have one player come up to me all the time and say, "I have a new alt... want to kill her?" and I'd be like, "No, that's not really interesting." When you play a character a lot and connect it with other characters, it gets tied into the world. It becomes *someone* and when that character is harmed or gains something good, those who are connected to it will react. You don't get this with unconnected alts. Likewise, an alt with no personality or anything is more like a puppet. Does that make sense?

Quote
I have now mostly quit RP because of this. I just don't have the energy to invest in wandering round for hours a night and going away dissatisfied almost every time. Even the 'tavern RP' I have found is generally flat and unengaging, and believe me, I have tried to persevere with these RPs as well. But in all, it means that the RP I really do enjoy being so hidden is a big factor in pushing me out of the game.

If you ask me, I say plan something. Discuss what you want to RP with others OOCly and then agree to log in at a certain time and place regularly. It's your time and its precious. There's no sense in wasting it. I did that too and got fed up. I don't have 18 hours a day to stand there and wait for others to log in. I'm willing to spend 1 to 3 hours tops if I have that much time.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Taya on May 18, 2013, 02:04:55 pm: Lots to respond to and I'm low on time and lazy to quote. ;)

About respecting settings - I'm on the settings team and probably, if anything, respect them too much. Though I am guessing you didn't really mean to imply otherwise. The real point was that a lot of the people who were previously open to these RPs have now gone further 'into hiding' so to speak and, based on conversations I've had with a few different people, it feels like they have been pushed there. Of course dark deeds get done in hidden corners, but the corners selected feel increasingly dark and distant ones chosen for OOC hiding as much as IC.

Regarding 'RP leaders' - I've tried. I've even had a few nice things going in the past but without any exception at all I have been let down by the players I have tried to involve OR there just haven't been suitable players who I can depend on to be around at the same time as I am. I have now lost the willpower to try again. I just haven't had enough back for my effort on all previous attempts. (Which isn't necessarily to blame the people I have RPed with.)

Regarding alts - I really only call them this for ease of understanding. Taya is more recognisable because she's the one I play by mechanics as well and the name I choose to use OOC, but I have three other characters with just as much RP development and background as her, and quite often the 'I only want to RP with Taya' stance is taken by those who are aware of this. I'm not willing to grind three other characters to high levels, but they have just as strong RP potential as Taya has ever had and they are certainly not characters that I would ever risk with no real investment of my own. Their stories and personalities are as developed and as vital to me as an RPer as Taya ever was. If I was offering people alts I just made and had never played before, it would be different of course. But that's not the case.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: novacadian on May 18, 2013, 02:38:15 pm: These last couple of pages have explained a lot, to me, why RP never finds me. There have been about 3 RP plots come my way since starting here. It was my thought that perhaps my Character's OOC was driving them away. Perhaps that is a factor too; yet it seems so very odd that RPers are complaining about lack of players while not including those trying to hang on here.

As my mention previously in this thread, it may come back to the lightness which is missing from the play. This is not meant to be lightness of content but a lightness of the players.

The younger child generally includes all in their play; even bringing in adults for their high teas if they'll have it. The last couple of pages is sounding more like high school cliques and explains a great deal of players going off as opposed to driven off.

If one comes to PS for RP and does not like what they find, and they are experienced RPers, then they can create their own or leave. When more unexperienced RPers come to PS and can find no substantive RP then maybe they simply drift away on their own.

The compromise would be to post or ooc the bulliten boards with an invite of an RP, explaining the tone if not details, and then /tells would seem more natural to be able to find them.

If it is more, as seems to me, that the RPs are off on their own because the clique wants it that way then it is not a community that is being tried to be built here but different groups of players using a game software that meets their needs to get together. That is totally cool; yet don't complain about the player base if they are seen to you as second class players not to be included. What's left to them? Quests and grinding. One does not need to have a doctoral paper to explain why that does not keep them long. :)

- Nova

[typos editing ]
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Mariana Xiechai on May 18, 2013, 02:54:22 pm: Quote
Regarding 'RP leaders' - I've tried. I've even had a few nice things going in the past but without any exception at all I have been let down by the players I have tried to involve OR there just haven't been suitable players who I can depend on to be around at the same time as I am. I have now lost the willpower to try again. I just haven't had enough back for my effort on all previous attempts. (Which isn't necessarily to blame the people I have RPed with.)

I concur. I think the biggest thump on the head for me was when I tried to get four different "baddies" tied together or an RP, had them all lined up...and then all four of them simultaneously quit. Practically on the same day. When something like that happens, your efforts are rendered pretty pointless. On top of that, when all tend to get for your efforts is a browbeating and various different forms of "you ain't doin' this bit right" it sort of makes you lose all desire you had to try to form something.

Quote
If it is more, as seems to me, that the RPs are off on their own because the clique wants it that way then it is not a community that is being tried to be built here but different groups of players using a game software that meets their needs to get together. That is totally cool; yet don't complain about the player base if they are seen to you as second class players not to be included.

I have to say that I don't think this is the case. At least, not for a lot of folks. Most folks would prefer to include people, if they could. I know I've tried repeatedly to put my alts in a place where they can be easily accessed and include a lot of new folks in the past, and I've tried to invite them to play. Unfortunately, I no longer have the energy nor the time to keep forming large-scale role play. I do little things on the side to try to initiate things, but I doubt I'll work up enough motivation to run anything large again. Running a role play by oneself is tiring, and leading one takes more effort than one might think. When you find yourself getting stressed out just trying to please every person that happens to wander into the story your building, the game is no longer fun for you. But I certainly wouldn't say that people consider new players to be "second rate." I mean, just recently I've had a newbie regularly walk up to me and interact with me, and I'll freely admit the dude's a better, funnier roleplayer than I am. Elbyre. I'd recommend approaching him, if you get the chance.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 18, 2013, 02:55:27 pm: Quote from: Taya on May 18, 2013, 02:04:55 pm
About respecting settings - I'm on the settings team and probably, if anything, respect them too much. Though I am guessing you didn't really mean to imply otherwise.

No, I simply meant that because of settings limitations, situations that would beg an NPC to interact need to be avoided, thus crimes need to be done away from the guards - driving us either into isolated corners, the sewers, or out of the city. I was not in any way suggesting that you would disregard the settings.

Quote
Regarding 'RP leaders' - I've tried. I've even had a few nice things going in the past but without any exception at all I have been let down by the players I have tried to involve OR there just haven't been suitable players who I can depend on to be around at the same time as I am. I have now lost the willpower to try again. I just haven't had enough back for my effort on all previous attempts. (Which isn't necessarily to blame the people I have RPed with.)

And that's one of the challenges of being a *giver*. It can be unfulfilling at times. With very low player count, its even harder.

Quote
If I was offering people alts I just made and had never played before, it would be different of course. But that's not the case.

Some (few) people do just that - offer disposable alts. I honestly didn't know if that was the case or not. I too play multiple characters, some more developed than others.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 18, 2013, 03:02:24 pm: Quote from: novacadian on May 18, 2013, 02:38:15 pm
These last couple of pages have explained a lot, to me, why RP never finds me. There have been about 3 RP plots come my way since starting here. It was my thought that perhaps my Character's OOC was driving them away. Perhaps that is a factor too; yet it seems so very odd that RPers are complaining about lack of players while not including those trying to hang on here.

No. When you are leading an event, as you know, the best case scenario is for everyone to join in, contribute and have fun. Its tricky to find RP because there is very little happening and the world is too big for the fist full of players that are on at a given time.

From an IC perspective, when you are doing bad things, you don't try to draw too much attention.

Gossip is awesome for spreading RP and keeping people informed ICly. Sadly, gossip does not spread will in a vacuum.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Taya on May 18, 2013, 03:32:33 pm: Quote from: novacadian on May 18, 2013, 02:38:15 pm
These last couple of pages have explained a lot, to me, why RP never finds me. There have been about 3 RP plots come my way since starting here. It was my thought that perhaps my Character's OOC was driving them away. Perhaps that is a factor too; yet it seems so very odd that RPers are complaining about lack of players while not including those trying to hang on here.

I don't find it odd at all. Too many factors make it hard to find someone you can RP with.
1 - Limited players to begin with.
2 - Building on this, only a certain portion of those players wants RP anyway.
3 - Building further, only a certain potion of those players are in the same time zone as you and are able to focus on RP when you are. (This is the problem I ran into with the likes of Mari and Tessra. It doesn't matter how good or suitable their RP is for me if it's being held at 4am in the morning and I need to get up and go to work at 7am.)
4 - Building further again on this, out of those that are interested in RP and regularly in game and able to focus at the same times as you how many then have the same RP preferences?

It's all well and good saying we should make the most of what we have and RP with whoever we can, but, when it comes down to it, why would you get involved in RP that bores you / makes you uncomfortable / goes into areas that you simply don't want to be involved in? It's possible to mix it up a bit and get involved to some extent yes and I am all for that, but if in the end you are spending a lot more time doing RP that others want rather than what interests you, then your reasons to continue fall apart. And it's not odd at all that people would complain at a lack of the thing that enables them to get what they want from the game.

It really comes down to having too small a player base.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: novacadian on May 18, 2013, 03:46:06 pm: Quote from: Taya on May 18, 2013, 03:32:33 pm
It really comes down to having too small a player base.

My point was it explains the small player base (as well as hardware limitation). If only one RP plot finds its way to me every year or more then something is up.

Keep in mind my entry into PS was long before the sharp drop in the player base; so your last point does not hold up.

- Nova
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Zalya on May 18, 2013, 05:04:13 pm: I am surprised with how far this thread has gone. Oh boy where do I start.

Well going way back to the conversation about dark and gritty, there are some pretty solid reasons to keep it at least a little light in major area's. In addition to certain triggers and painful recollections there are also a good deal of younger players floating around too. I started playing when I was fairly young. And I know that there are younger players too. That being said the cautions being taken are good ones. And don't get me wrong, I love to see a certain level of gritty, dark, soul crushing miasma. Heck, I go out of my way to find it sometimes. There is balance in all things, and I think its generally handled pretty well. There have been times where I have felt uncomfortable before, but some OOC chat is generally all that is needed to tone things down a bit.

On completely different note, I have found that some of the most fun I've had with RP's is the spontaneous stuff. You can plan and plan and plan, but its the stuff that comes out of nowhere that really tends to drive things for me. I'm sure Tessra recalls when Zalya kidnapped Teshia's child to give him cookies. That created some tension :P. Some of these other RP's are fun, but they occasionally lack that spark. Especially when each step is planned. I know that Mariana is usually pretty good at combining the planned with the unplanned. From all my years as a Pen and Paper RPG GM I have found that this applies to any situation. I ran an adventure last night where the players out of the blue decided that they wanted to hold a tournament for the kingdom. That went on for hours and was a remarkable amount of fun. Made me have to think on my feet though. But I digress. Basically, I find the leadership position in a game like Planeshift to be hard to pinpoint, and that's a good thing. The best RP's are the ones that are spontaneous.

The low player count has been an ongoing problem, but one that is not beyond fixing. I have seen at least six people in this thread alone who have strong feelings about RP and all want to see it succeed. I'd like to see them ingame :) Its one thing to be bitter on the forums, but if we don't try and get in game nothing is going to change. I personally love talking to new players (When I don't scare them off :) )And I love talking to old ones too. Its that blend that makes it worth while. When I talk about PS with my friends, I still make a point to stress that the community is still one that is overwhelmingly nice and accepting. Sure it might not seem like it all the time, but I'm telling you Planeshift holds so much more than the average MMO. I love this game. I've been playing it for years. Its my home away from home. You are all an like an extended family to me. Of course family members have their augments, we are human (or at the very least humanoid) after all. I try and get in game as often as I can while still keeping a fairly consistent social life. I'd like to see you all around more too :)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Taya on May 18, 2013, 05:46:37 pm: Quote from: novacadian on May 18, 2013, 03:46:06 pm
Quote from: Taya on May 18, 2013, 03:32:33 pm
It really comes down to having too small a player base.

My point was it explains the small player base (as well as hardware limitation). If only one RP plot finds its way to me every year or more then something is up.

Keep in mind my entry into PS was long before the sharp drop in the player base; so your last point does not hold up.

I'm sorry, but I will have to just agree to disagree with you on this. You can use it to an extent to explain 'part' of the reason why there is a small player base, but it's a circle as the small player base in itself is a problem as well. More RP might help increase the player base, but more player base would also increase the RP, and from a personal standpoint I have tried over and over to RP absolutely anything I can, even when it's been RP that doesn't interest me, and just the same I have seen the player base shrinking further.

The more players there are, the greater the chance of you finding someone to RP with. Everytime I enter the game and look for RP this gets proven, so I am not sure how you can claim it doesn't hold up.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 19, 2013, 02:32:41 am: Quote from: Taya on May 18, 2013, 01:13:03 pm
I know there are strong reasons for this, but this is also problematic in itself. What about those of us who WANT to find these RPs but then never ever stumble onto them, precisely because they are being held in such remote locations?

Lack of depth is less a problem of location and more a problem of just being rare. Depth can come from any kind of RP though.

Quote from: Rigwyn on May 18, 2013, 01:37:37 pm
There are a lot less "leaders" playing. Very few people take the lead. Anyone can do it, but few do. I would say that for most, its hard to do for personal reasons such as fear of being criticism, fear of failure or screwing up badly, insecurity about not really knowing how to take the lead, etc. Sometimes the problem is that only the baddies have leaders or only the goodies have leaders.

Yeah and people are getting worn down hard, as already seen in the thread, so they give up. Other people don't want to try because it looks hard especially after people crash and burn trying to stand up to it without a strong enough support system. Thus there is too much burden on the people that try. That's why I always tried to get people together for a concerted push. You need a bunch of people leading at once, that stay in close contact, and work together on everyone's projects, so that when one falters someone else can step in and keep them from getting crushed under the weight of keeping things going. It's too big a job for one person.

Quote from: novacadian on May 18, 2013, 02:38:15 pm
If it is more, as seems to me, that the RPs are off on their own because the clique wants it that way then it is not a community that is being tried to be built here but different groups of players using a game software that meets their needs to get together.

The problem is not so much cliques as players get worn down and then to keep having fun they have to turn to the players they know they can rely on for fun. It becomes clique-ish after awhile but not because that was the intent. It's typically the last move for someone that is on their way to not be able to continue trying to struggle with this battle.

Quote from: Taya on May 18, 2013, 03:32:33 pm
but if in the end you are spending a lot more time doing RP that others want rather than what interests you, then your reasons to continue fall apart. And it's not odd at all that people would complain at a lack of the thing that enables them to get what they want from the game.

It really comes down to having too small a player base.

True on on the problem of losing interest, but it is not a matter of small player base. the game started with a small playerbase and grew. The problem is that what players there are left are not working close enough together to compensate. Obviously people feel strongly about this and agree there is a problem and something must be done. Several people have tried to do something but it didn't pan out because they are working in parallel and not together.

Quote from: Zalya on May 18, 2013, 05:04:13 pm
Its one thing to be bitter on the forums, but if we don't try and get in game nothing is going to change. I personally love talking to new players (When I don't scare them off :) )And I love talking to old ones too. Its that blend that makes it worth while.

It helps to be in game for obvious reasons, but remember, this game once had 300 players online at a time and the numbers declined to where we are not anyway. It's not the people in game, it's the level of cooperation and how well they work together.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Ebonwumon on May 19, 2013, 02:51:49 am: Hi.

I didn't read this thread.

It's very long.

What do you call a bear with no teeth? A gummy bear.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 19, 2013, 03:19:46 am: That is OTR for: If this thread wasn't here attracting attention, I wouldn't have anything to troll or anything else to do. ;)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Ebonwumon on May 19, 2013, 03:29:27 am: Also, does Rigwyn still play at all?

I've seen a lot of him on the forums lately, which is a pretty good indicator that he doesn't actually play the game anymore.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 19, 2013, 03:32:34 am: Yes, I was RPing with him last night. ;)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Ebonwumon on May 19, 2013, 03:42:04 am: Oh god, he truly is the hero we need if he can play with you and not quit the game.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Candy on May 19, 2013, 04:05:28 am: Quote from: Tessra on May 18, 2013, 02:32:12 am
Back to the above... I'm not a big fan of established characters walking up obliviously into things and not reacting ICly. I suppose I expect a bit more from them. Some players, like Elrbye (I know I butchered that spelling. Where are you, you giant hulking menki?! You know you want a cuddle!), Sacho, and Monala are just amazing at walking up, giving a realistic greeting/intro, and then observing and jumping in with the reaction. I give them mad props for going with the flow.

I'm flattered, but I'm really not that amazing. In fact, I have a formula. No, not a premeditated one, it's just something I automatically do, but it IS a formula. You even revealed it in your own post.

It goes, walk up and say hi (or emote standing there creepily watching) in-character. Wait for at least two if not more other characters to react. Gague whether or not I want to be in the RP, and if I do, BS some reason my character would get involved if there isn't already one - and some reason they wouldn't leave after being ICly told to leave if the case requires it (I've admittedly had to learn to assume that being ICly told to screw off isn't necessarily an OOC snub. If you want someone to go away OOC, tell them OOC).

Quote from: Illysia on May 19, 2013, 02:32:41 am

Quote from: Rigwyn on May 18, 2013, 01:37:37 pm
There are a lot less "leaders" playing. Very few people take the lead. Anyone can do it, but few do. I would say that for most, its hard to do for personal reasons such as fear of being criticism, fear of failure or screwing up badly, insecurity about not really knowing how to take the lead, etc. Sometimes the problem is that only the baddies have leaders or only the goodies have leaders.

Yeah and people are getting worn down hard, as already seen in the thread, so they give up. Other people don't want to try because it looks hard especially after people crash and burn trying to stand up to it without a strong enough support system. Thus there is too much burden on the people that try. That's why I always tried to get people together for a concerted push. You need a bunch of people leading at once, that stay in close contact, and work together on everyone's projects, so that when one falters someone else can step in and keep them from getting crushed under the weight of keeping things going. It's too big a job for one person.

/shamelessplug Speaking of which, I'd appreciate help in moving the Hydlaa Asylum RP along. >_>

Quote from: Illysia on May 19, 2013, 02:32:41 am
Quote from: novacadian on May 18, 2013, 02:38:15 pm
If it is more, as seems to me, that the RPs are off on their own because the clique wants it that way then it is not a community that is being tried to be built here but different groups of players using a game software that meets their needs to get together.

The problem is not so much cliques as players get worn down and then to keep having fun they have to turn to the players they know they can rely on for fun. It becomes clique-ish after awhile but not because that was the intent. It's typically the last move for someone that is on their way to not be able to continue trying to struggle with this battle.

Yes, we get cliquey at times, mostly for the reason Illykins has stated here, but lately I've found that any given person I run up to and start emoting with in-game is probably going to be cool with roleplaying with me if they're not AFK or crafting. I'm talking an approximate 80% chance of an IC reply here. And when it does get cliquey, don't come to the forums and whine about it or go off on an OOC rant on people. There are better ways to fight it that can be done entirely in-game and won't end in bad blood or 11-page-and-couting threads ;)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 19, 2013, 04:16:44 am: Quote from: Ebonwumon on May 19, 2013, 03:42:04 am
Oh god, he truly is the hero we need if he can play with you and not quit the game.

You only RPed with me twice because you were busy writing books that are only good for being thrown at your head. :P

Quote from: Candy on May 19, 2013, 04:05:28 am
There are better ways to fight it that can be done entirely in-game and won't end in bad blood or 11-page-and-couting threads ;)

It's 11 pages because got off topic actually. :) But remember people, if you kill threads like this you will kill the forum. Count how off many non controversial threads last and how many last for 11 pages. ;)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 19, 2013, 04:39:59 am: Two or three people talking, or in this case, roleplaying, is NOT a clique.
If you think it is, then you probably suck at socializing. Don't blame that on others, that's a cop out.
I suck at socializing too, so don't feel bad. RP is good practice.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Ebonwumon on May 19, 2013, 04:58:38 am: Quote from: Illysia on May 19, 2013, 04:16:44 am
You only RPed with me twice because you were busy writing books that are only good for being thrown at your head. :P

So, here's the thing. I consider the adventures of Toenail to be completely 100% my IC magnum opus. They are the climax of my RP career. I was happy to quit, knowing those books were published. The funny thing about it? They were all created, heavily with OOC knowledge.

I've RP'd with you many a time. You do know there's only like 4 active PS players, right? I can open a lot of clients simultaneously.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 19, 2013, 05:08:43 am: Quote from: Ebonwumon on May 19, 2013, 04:58:38 am
I've RP'd with you many a time. You do know there's only like 4 active PS players, right? I can open a lot of clients simultaneously.

Yes and I only RPed with all 3 of your alts twice. :P
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Ebonwumon on May 19, 2013, 05:14:25 am: I have four full accounts.

I was very secretive about my alts, because I hated the idea of metagaming, where people would react differently because they knew I was an alt. I knew this would definitely happened even to the best roleplayer, because I was the best roleplayer and I did that all the time.

I usually had a minimum of two clients open when playing the game. I was quite a scrupulous young fellow =P
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Illysia on May 19, 2013, 05:26:43 am: Quote from: Ebonwumon on May 19, 2013, 05:14:25 am
people would react differently because they knew I was an alt.

That would be because they know you. They would probably just stop to troll the troll. :P
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: novacadian on May 19, 2013, 09:57:11 am: Quote from: Rigwyn on May 19, 2013, 04:39:59 am
Two or three people talking, or in this case, roleplaying, is NOT a clique.
If you think it is, then you probably suck at socializing. Don't blame that on others, that's a cop out.
I suck at socializing too, so don't feel bad. RP is good practice.

Possibly. :) My meaning was full story RPs not the tavern meetings, IC bump into one another, etc.. That is happening all the time. My feeling was that we were talking about ongoing rps. My character has characters that seem like friends to her and me the player likes the people behind the characters. So the use of clique may have been misleading. Clique in the sense of a group that had ongoing themes yet seem hard to break into short of a tell. The reasons for that possibilty has been explained well on the thread. My points were not meant to offend just to share.

Your character and mine had a bump into encounter one time in the Maul herd east of the Oja river. We never connected after that; although Ven was keeping an eye out for you. Maybe just chance coincidence that we did not or maybe your character was intentionally off the beaten path. Not sure.

- Nova
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 19, 2013, 10:18:50 am: I wasn't directing that at you personally. I just hear a lot of claims about cliques in planeshift but have yet to see any more than maybe one. My understanding is that a clique is a small exclusive group that's not welcoming to new participants and with some unreasonable resistance to entry. Most folks here are verbal on the forum about wanting more players to join in.

If you are are the type of player who refuses or is incapable of blending in without throwing the RP off the tracks upon entry, then yes, you will be ignored. That goes for any social group, not just Planeshift.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Taya on May 19, 2013, 10:52:36 am: Hmm... Just to throw something up for discussion, how is it best to handle things if characters are in something of an IC clique, whereas OOC the players are happy to welcome just about anyone?
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Volki on May 19, 2013, 01:33:14 pm: I once found a two-person clique interrupting an event going on in the Stonehead. For clarification, "RoyalDBag" and I always seemed to be on good terms OOCly, so I have no idea why he behaved this way. Whatever, that's narcissists for you.

Sorry for not cleaning it up. Too much effort... But that goes to show how much they really don't care for other players, I guess.

Quote
(16:43:36) ApprenticeDBag continues to throw punches using all of her upper body strength to try and hit the lemur
(16:43:42) RoyalDBag peforms a back flip rearwards and regains his initiative on ApprenticeDBag
(16:44:01) Yahh shouts: answer 1a) Ulfer
(16:44:02) ApprenticeDBag turns and steps back
(16:44:18) Sarras walks up behind ApprenticeDBag. Her expression is mostly blank, except for one eyebrow arched. "What are you doing?"
(16:44:19) Yahh shouts: answer 2b) Baruden
(16:44:39) Yahh shouts: answer 3c) Bakin
(16:44:43) RoyalDBag stands before her unfazedby the exceptional ferocity of ApprenticeDBag's attack and remarks "Impressive tenacity"
(16:45:10) Ardoin says: A fool could know this question.
(16:45:20) Heolion wears her healm
(16:45:20) ApprenticeDBag stands upright, panting a little.
(16:45:36) Noronel wears the helm he was loaned.
(16:45:44) Luckeley pours beer in his helm, drinks it, then dons it
(16:45:48) Caraick slips his head into his helm.
(16:45:59) Sarras tilts her head and scratches above an ear while she waits for an answer.
(16:46:10) Yahh shouts: [ 1A=helm, 2b= no helm, answer 3c=holding arrow ]
(16:46:11) Evaraj tips on his heml
(16:46:25) Yahh nods
(16:46:41) ApprenticeDBag turns to Sarras and narrows her eyes at her. "Leave, please."
(16:46:45) Yahh shouts: the answer is 1a) Ulfer
(16:47:02) RoyalDBag dust his overcoat slightly with a regal poise and states "Obstacles only exist to filter those whom want things bad enough. As it stands i wonder...Why are your purusing this?"
(16:47:16) RoyalDBag says: [She technically isn't here to me so just ignore]
(16:47:17) Noronel gulps his beer down, "Lucky guess on the first question. I'm going to need more beer."
(16:47:22) ApprenticeDBag says: [lawl ok]
(16:47:26) Luckeley shouts "To Ulfer" and after raising his glass in the air, chugs his beer
(16:47:28) Sarras does not leave. "You're fighting. Why?" [i am technically here.]
(16:47:50) Caraick grins to himself at Noronel's words, looking towards Yahh expectantly.
(16:48:07) Yahh shouts: almost everyone has passed to the next round, others may sit down now
(16:48:45) ApprenticeDBag says: Why am I pursuing?
(16:48:48) Luckeley looks at Yahh and says "Can we take the heloms off now, Brodr"?
(16:48:50) Darege shouts: question 2
(16:48:51) Noronel prepares for the next question by quickly exchanging mugs and taking off the helm.
(16:49:16) ApprenticeDBag says: Because I know that I can be the best.
(16:49:37) Darege shouts: How is called the ritual involving a cerimonial dagger that imbues the Bloodstone warrior with a great strenght?
(16:50:00) Darege shouts: answer 1: the dance of the dagger
(16:50:14) Darege shouts: answer 2: the blood ritual
(16:50:17) RoyalDBag nods solemnly "That is good enough an answer for me, the militia needs the best, Hydlaa needs the best"
(16:50:25) Darege shouts: answer 3: the ritual of the dagger
(16:50:42) Heolion takes off her helm
(16:51:01) Noronel shrugs, takes a large swig of his beer, then pulls out the arrow and holds it in his hand.
(16:51:01) Luckeley watches the others and sips his beer
(16:51:10) Caraick slips his head out of his helmet, standing as he is.
(16:51:21) Heolion murmurs... BLOODstone Brethren...
(16:51:32) RoyalDBag turns to Phenha and makes an approving nod
(16:51:40) Luckeley doesn't know what to do, so does nothing at all
(16:52:02) Luckeley sips his beer and grins
(16:52:05) RoyalDBag says: Looks like you got a your troop now sergeant...Carry on
(16:52:15) Yahh shouts: everyone holding an arrow or wearing helm can sit down
(16:52:41) Darege shouts: the corrct answer is 2, the blood ritual
(16:52:41) Phenha looks at ApprenticeDBag, unsure of what to do now.
(16:52:50) Sanrai nods.
(16:52:50) ApprenticeDBag's eyebrow raises
(16:53:16) RoyalDBag motions for both ato follow him
(16:53:17) Phenha shrugs.
(16:53:22) Caraick glances idly around him, as though to see who is still left in the game.
(16:53:34) Yahh shouts: six people made it too the next round
(16:53:38) Sarras dismissively waves her hands at Phenha, ApprenticeDBag, and RoyalDBag to show her disinterest. "Nutters."

The only thing you can do is /ignore these players. They aren't going to affect your character's story, so why listen to theirs?

Quote from: Taya on May 19, 2013, 10:52:36 am
Hmm... Just to throw something up for discussion, how is it best to handle things if characters are in something of an IC clique, whereas OOC the players are happy to welcome just about anyone?

Didn't want your post to get lost in the last page. I'm not sure what you mean, though.

If by IC clique, you mean a group of xenophobic or snobby characters who roleplay together solely for in-character reasons, then there's no problem. Those are rare, though. More often I find characters that have formed a clique to be part of a player clique as well, whether they know it or not.

The way you can spot a clique of players is if they bash other groups of players, which means they already understand that they belong to their own group, and they may or may not actively recognize this. Or they primarily roleplay within their group of players and tend to ignore or avoid outsiders. The worst example of this I've seen is when players literally get up and leave the company of outsiders when they realize a fellow clique member has logged on.

There was once a guild which turned into a massive clique, giving it far too much social power. They bullied other players (players, not characters) just for the fun of it. The problem was that their motives were purely OOC. Most of the players would use roleplay as a means to control other players. I actually quit the game for a while because of this since no one else seemed to care that I and multiple other players were being harassed. Predictably, a year later, the guild imploded due to interpersonal clashes. I have no idea what happened internally, but from what I've heard, it was pretty bad.

I'm not withholding the name of the guild; I just don't remember the name. I doubt anyone playing this game holds enough respect for the guild to request its anonymity.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: cdmoreland on May 19, 2013, 02:27:33 pm: Role-playing in the tavern was one of the biggest helps, to me, in getting started. It leads to getting involved in other RP as it comes up and interests you. I didn't know a lot about RP but I learned and developed Waesed as best I could. When things would get off in a direction I didn't want to go, I just stayed out of it. I think some were offend by that, but this is just a game and I want to have fun. I think I offended some when trying to thwart the actions of some BF members. Still have that alt. waiting to be found and killed for ratting on them. :-[

This is one of the best discussion I've ever seen on RP and new players- it goes hand-in-hand.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Mariana Xiechai on May 19, 2013, 04:28:08 pm: Quote
If by IC clique, you mean a group of xenophobic or snobby characters who roleplay together solely for in-character reasons, then there's no problem. Those are rare, though. More often I find characters that have formed a clique to be part of a player clique as well, whether they know it or not.

I might be wrong, but I believe Taya refers to a group of characters who are very tied together as "do-no-gooders," as it were. In other words, thick as thieves, if you get my drift. I think it's important to specify that a group of characters who have close ties to one another ICly is not a clique. That's just how "life" works, as it were. The way you can tell the difference is if they're willing to let others walk up and RP with them whenever the occasion occurs. I've seen a lot of this happening if a player decides they want to join in; I haven't seen too many occasions of people wholly blocking someone without some kind of IC reason. In the case of a guild, it's easy to tell simply if they're willing to emit new players and characters of similar "alignments." IC versus OOC exclusion is a tricky business, but there is a world of difference between the two.

I say IC reason because I know that sometimes the character's personality doesn't allow for a hi-howdy-hello all the time. Playing a character that is apathetic towards another, or a group of characters that are this way consistently, is not a clique either. Sometimes it's just the character being played and not the player trying to be an exclusive-stuck-up. I can't say I've had much issue with this personally, either my character is "good" aligned enough that they'll at least make an attempt even if they're socially awkward, or "villainy" enough that most seem to get the idea that they're not talking to Mister Rogers. I have had some small amount of it with Evirea, who quite frankly has very little social talent, and I got so many /tells about how she was being too mean or too unapproachable (which I'm fine with, and a factor I was aware of when I created her) that I had to dumb her down. Funny thing was, she's not even villainous. She's simply sarcastic. When people can't separate IC and OOC from one another, there's a world of problems. I've found no amount of disclaimers can help in some situations; even if one attempts to explain, the automatic reaction is to continue saying "you should make your characters nicer."

Quote
I'm not withholding the name of the guild; I just don't remember the name. I doubt anyone playing this game holds enough respect for the guild to request its anonymity.

I think I might recall the one you're referring to, mostly just because I was in it as a nooby. Frankly, I left because there really never was much Role Playing going on in that guild at all. A few characters made some attempts now and then, but it was relatively rare. It sort of hit a power-spike in numbers and then degenerated because of loss of interest, or at least I thought that was the case. I was pretty oblivious as a nooby. I've noticed that it (seems) in a lot of cases, guilds that (only) grind and never do (any) Role Play don't tend to last too long.

Quote
I wasn't directing that at you personally. I just hear a lot of claims about cliques in planeshift but have yet to see any more than maybe one. My understanding is that a clique is a small exclusive group that's not welcoming to new participants and with some unreasonable resistance to entry. Most folks here are verbal on the forum about wanting more players to join in.

If you are are the type of player who refuses or is incapable of blending in without throwing the RP off the tracks upon entry, then yes, you will be ignored. That goes for any social group, not just Planeshift.

Oh hey look, Rigwyn said it perfectly without all the tldr. :whistling:
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Taya on May 19, 2013, 04:51:10 pm: Yea, that's a big part of what I mean. I've previously played a character who is very difficult to approach and generally will only respond much to a person (as in another character) that she already knows. But I suppose a lot comes down to how it's handled, since in that scenario I'd still respond to RP or to any attempts to get involved, even if that response would be impolite in terms of the RP. There'd still be a response and I wouldn't just have the character leave. (General note, the character I am thinking of only got played briefly once or twice, so please no one make an assumption that it's one of my actually played characters.)

Elaborating a bit though, I guess what I am thinking about is ways in which it is acceptable for characters to be difficult to get involved with. One thing I tried previously and found quite successful was when my guild sat our characters down in a group just off the plaza, so in a highly visible place, and then dropped a book nearby that explained the group could be heard having a quiet conversation and would stop talking if anyone got too close. This resulted in the expected /tells "if you don't want to be heard you should go somewhere else" from people who were completely missing the point. A couple of people got the point however and RPed looking curiously at us and wondering what we were up to. After a while, someone RPed attempting to sneak behind a wall to eavesdrop and... well didn't he find something interesting. :) We eventually RPed noticing him there spying and his way into the group was formed.

So basically, a set up that is IC sort of cliquey (a group talking in hushed voices and actively trying not to be overheard or to involve others), but used a book as a prompt to show that it was still an RP setup which people were meant to take notice of.

I've always been interested in hiding 'bad-guy activities' in plain sight, preferably in a way that only removes it from the sight of the character, not the player but... Difficult. I just favour this sort of approach to remote locations when possible and I'd be interested in hearing any other similar ideas anyone has that balance things out this way.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Mariana Xiechai on May 19, 2013, 05:00:33 pm: Quote
I just favour this sort of approach to remote locations when possible and I'd be interested in hearing any other similar ideas anyone has that balance things out this way.

Mmmbooks.

This method, using books to try to cultivate something, is a good one. Or at least a good one in theory. I once scattered the journal of one of my baddies to try to get people interested; I figured having it stolen and the pages torn out wasn't out of character for his typically secretive ways. Unfortunately, it seemed to only stir up a little RP for a while, but it was rather successful in forming a handful of interactions that were highly interesting. Kudos to The One for making that one fun.

I think books are not used as often as they should. A torn note here or there can be an exciting thing to find, and it can be a sort of gateway into an RP that would be otherwise ICly unavailable.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Taya on May 19, 2013, 05:13:20 pm: I think it's a good method if you are either able to keep track of the books, or if it's safe to make duplicates when one goes walkies into an unknown inventory.

I also often used them as a way to give an IC explanation for me not being at the screen. Example - "This character appears to be in meditation / in deep thought / preoccupied with fixing a broken bit of armour / annoyed and anti-social feeling and doesn't seem to be in the mood for conversation, merely offering a small nod / a grunt / a roll of their eyes / a poked out tongue / a rude gesture if you try to start a conversation with them."

My merchant has a book dumped in front of him that explains he has fallen asleep if I know I'll be away for a while.

It's less likely to break immersion than a complete zero response either way.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: Rigwyn on May 19, 2013, 09:00:34 pm: Perhaps discuss joining them in an ooc conversation?

Tossing ideas around oocly might be a good way to do this too. If you have such a discussion thread on the forums, who knows, maybe other players would join the conversation.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: bloodedIrishman on September 17, 2013, 12:44:27 pm: Necro.
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: LigH on September 17, 2013, 12:45:33 pm: All that for another PM? ;)
Title: Re: How to run a new player off.
Post by: bloodedIrishman on September 20, 2013, 04:19:53 am: Basically, LigH. Basically.