Author Topic: 3D) ]Klyros  (Read 11896 times)

Seytra

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« Reply #90 on: October 16, 2004, 07:57:30 pm »
Thanks for the formulae!

So, I don\'t think that altering the wing design of the Klyros would help to such a great extent that it would, by RL theory, allow flight. However, maybe the air in PS is different in that it allows for flight with far less wing areag? I just imagine flies with minuscle wings. :D

Well, I\'d like to have everything as accurate as possible, but obviously there need to be some breaches in that, or it wouldn\'t be a game. We are used to the effective immortality of characters already (where would the fun be if you\'d die from the first two hits you take from a sword? What fun would it be if you\'d be crippled by the first hit? Or if you\'d take months to heal? :) ) Clearly, magic is another major breach. However, we\'d need to examine the effects of altering some laws of physics, like altering the properties of air.

I expect a Klyros to weigh about 25 to 30 kg, including wings. Maybe even less.

The formulae just reminded me of something, however! hang gliders! These can obviously carry a human, and their wingspan isn\'t as giant as one might think. So, while they can only glide, by imagining flapping the wings, it might be possible after all to lift half a human with it, which would roughly equate to a Klyros, even in normal air, with unmodified physics! Maybe I\'m wrong, but it is surprisingly close IMO! o.O

Edit: Eureka! I think we have been missing a highly important fact on this issue:
pterosaurs in-game! I mean, these are way bigger than even a really fat Klyros, and their weight will be many times as big! Also, one can ride them and they can carry significant additional load! So, after all, it doesn\'t matter if the Klyros would be able to fly IRL, the breach is already there big time! Furthermore, this means that the Klyros\'s \"short time flight\" is a result of some reason that doesn\'t have anything to do with their weight or the size of their wings, which brings this issue back to my original assumption: lack of training.
Everyone can run at reasonable speed for a short time, but to enable running for several hours, training is required. Therefore, to me it is clear that there is the need for a flight option in the body development section, by means of which a Klyros can gradually extend it\'s general flight ability and the maximum flight duration (and maybe also speed). Maybe we can also have an \"emergency\" option that\'d enable them to push themselves way more than usually possible, to get out of immediate danger or help someone in such danger, just like everyone can do IRL as well. Obviously, afterwards, they\'d be wrecked for several hours, which IMO would compensate for that.

Edit 2: I\'d still leave the wings as big as we have now, and that we also try to improve their performance and durability as much as we can so that we\'ll have it as justifiable as possible.

@ Zeraph: I\'ve mentioned placing the \"finger\" bones of the wings along the main supporting bone, instead all at the tip, to reduce strain. Did you miss it in my long post, or did you not like it (same for the extra joints)? I\'m not insulting you, I\'d just like to know. :)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2004, 10:19:55 pm by Seytra »

Pegasus

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« Reply #91 on: October 16, 2004, 11:25:36 pm »
Just a reminder: This is a game, the Klyros is a made up lifeform, it can only fly for a short time, ... so explain me why are you writing endless posts about how the modell should be designed to match reality (and its restrictions)?

Seytra

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« Reply #92 on: October 17, 2004, 12:58:53 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Pegasus
Just a reminder: This is a game, the Klyros is a made up lifeform, it can only fly for a short time, ... so explain me why are you writing endless posts about how the modell should be designed to match reality (and its restrictions)?

Because

1) the more realistic it is, the less pseudo-explanations are required to create a consistent world, so it will not fall apart upon the first closer look

2) reality influences our perception of the game world, so we expect it to be \"somewhat realistic\", therefore it is sensible to avoid totally unrealistic things unless they\'re specificly intended (like magic). If it looks halfway realistic and credible, it\'ll not rise questions as easily so the immersion isn\'t likely to get hurt

3) reality can sometimes provide good ideas and explanations (like how the wings can be made not to tear apart if getting a minor wound)

4) I want it to be \"as possible as possible\". I want a model that at least has some hints of reference to realism

Of course we could always attach the wings to the toes, and have them be of about 1cm^2 in size with a body the size and weight of a hourse and just say \"this is a game, and it\'s made up, so leave us alone\", but that would IMO just plainly suck.

I don\'t see what the flight duration would do to lessen the validity of any of my points, though.

I know perfectly well that it\'s all made up. I can, however, not see what damage it does to discuss it. You are as free to ignore all of my posts as anybody else, and as long as bandwidth and diskspace don\'t cost ridiculous amounts of money, I don\'t see anyone getting hurt. After all, there might be someone who is interested in it, so what\'s the problem? I\'m not SPAMming or anything.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2004, 01:24:03 am by Seytra »

Adeli

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« Reply #93 on: October 17, 2004, 06:58:30 am »
While I do generally agree with your Seytra, I have a feeling the devs did not put this much scrutiny into creating a Klyros, else they would not be as they are.
Interesting point about the hang glider... Zeraph\'s wings are around that size.
Only thing is, if their wings function like that, why can they only fly a short time?? It should be wind dependent, shouldn\'t it? Birds can glide for days.

I like Red Jelly Beans!

Pegasus

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« Reply #94 on: October 17, 2004, 12:57:31 pm »
1) thats a matter of perception - not many people think about the fact how big wings need to be to support flying.  Thus if you present them with a Klyros with wings twice as big as they are now (on Zeraphs model) they would probably find it unrealistic.

2) Most people lack a reality influenced picture of a humanoid creature that is flying. Thus whatever you show to them looks unrealistic. Beside that many people are influenced from other game realities.

3) Well you are right about that one although your example doesnt fit into the game (a Klyros will  probably not lose its wings).

4) Hmm could you give an explanation to this one? Why do you want it as realistic as possible? Would you be annoyed if Planeshift wasnt as realistic as you expected it? How important is Planeshift in your reallife? How important are (online)games?

Klyros\' probably can only fly for a short time cause the person that invented them didnt think about wingspan and lifting equations. ... Or the Klyros used to walk and swim more for the last few million years and thus is not as good in flying as he used to be.
But most likely it is to prevent an uber-character (that can fly, dive and walk)

Seytra

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« Reply #95 on: October 18, 2004, 02:27:36 am »
@ Adeli: that may very well be the case. ;) However, I still think that fly in fact means fly, not glide. There\'s a huge difference, because in order to glide, you only need to hold your wings in place, like what any human does when standing (sort of). For flying, you need way greater effort. Thus I\'d say it might be possible for a Klyros, given the proper winds and whatnot, to glide for very long time (ior at least considerably longer than flying). This, however, is unlikely to be implemented. Also, I\'d say that they wouldn\'t be able to glide infinitely without training, just as you can\'t keep standing infinitely.
To me, it all boils down to training and thus to body development. It should take a Klyros the same effort to become a long-distance / high-speed / high-mass flyer as it takes a human to do the same for running, becoming a great fighter or powerful mage: serious effort. Thus, it will not be something that any high percentage of Klyros (and their players) will consider worthwile.

@ Pegasus:

1) so it is in fact a matter of knowledge, even if it sounds superstitious. I agree that ppl. who are used to smaller wing size might find it strange if they were larger, but I\'d also say that, since they didn\'t think about the small wings in the first place, they wouldn\'t think much about the bigger ones, whereas other ppl. who did think about the smaller wings most likely will appreciate the bigger ones. However, I\'m satisfied with the current models wingsize, especially due to the hang gliders.

2) I particularly like this statement of yours, because it obviously is true, and well put. :) I must concede this point to you with the minor exception of the hang gliders, which will provide this reality-influenced image to some of us, though probably not too many.

3) Most likely not, but, until I read this article, I was starting to wonder about that, and that wings of this size would be so susceptible to damage that it would be highly unrealistic to not have them chopped off easily. With this new information, I now have a conclusive and even scientific explanation. This means that I can now easily accept that, as long as losing arms / legs isn\'t implemented, losing wings wouldn\'t need to be, either. Otherwise, I\'d always have thought \"that\'s just not implemented, but it could never have survived that\".

4) I have already given the rough explanation as an implication: personal preference. However, my answer to 3) also contains one: I tend to question things like this, and if I end up with the answer being \"engine limitations\", the immersion gets a notch, because I\'ve found reality affecting the world that should not be affected by it. If enough notches accumulate, the illusion falls apart, and with it the immersion, and the game world is reduced to it\'s actual form: a program (like in the movie \"the matrix\", it\'s like seeing the world as the code and loosing the feeling of immersion). Hard to explain, but it happened in NWN (I\'ve told the reasons on another thread, which I can quote if you\'d like)

Anyway, if it isn\'t as realistic as I would want it to be, it all depends on the properties of the missing realism. I can accept unrealistic things as long as they don\'t hint at reality affecting the game. Otherwise, I can \"tolerate\" a few, but not many, which I actually regret (NWN is a nice game). In any case, I\'d be annoyed, but obviously the degree of annoyance depends on the offending property. :)

How important is PS to my RL? Not very much, I\'ll certainly be able to live without it, just as without online games in general.
However, everyone requires some way of relaxation and gaming, and this is very important. Whether this is provided by PS, online games in general or any other recreational activity depends entirely on the person, and I\'m sure that I can find other ways to achieve this (in fact, PS or online gaming isn\'t my only way even now). However, I like PS and therefore would much prefer if it were here to stay.

Quote
Originally posted by Pegasus
Klyros\' probably can only fly for a short time cause the person that invented them didnt think about wingspan and lifting equations. ... Or the Klyros used to walk and swim more for the last few million years and thus is not as good in flying as he used to be.
But most likely it is to prevent an uber-character (that can fly, dive and walk)

Yes, maybe, and yes. Point a) doesn\'t require any argument AFAICS, ;) point b) could be the case, however it might also be that they didn\'t require more from the beginning and thus didn\'t evolve it, which would, of course, have the exact same result. I think that this can be addressed by the second part of what I directed at Adeli, which IMO also is valid for point c).
« Last Edit: October 18, 2004, 02:45:20 am by Seytra »

Adeli

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« Reply #96 on: October 18, 2004, 06:14:50 am »
Seytra: I like the idea that they need to become strong in flying etc, endurance training sort of. It works well.
Pegasus: I don\'t think it was that the devs didn\'t think of it, but rather chose to ignore it, as they knew it would be impossible to have it realistic... 15m wingspan for a Klyros is a little silly.
I enjoy these discussions don\'t you?

OT: Seytra... what was it that has you disillusioned with NWN, as an avid D&D fan, and owner of NWN I am interested.

I like Red Jelly Beans!

Pegasus

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« Reply #97 on: October 18, 2004, 10:50:35 am »
Your post helped me to understand why you want it as accurate as possible.

I asked those reallife related questions because i wanted to understand why you want the game to be as real as possible. I thought that you may be one of those players that are really addicted to games and happily live just for the game (therefore it would make sense to me of creating a \"real\" world). However also from your answers to the 1-4 points i could see that your motivation is a different one.

I think the same thing that you describe as \"illusion falling apart\" happens to me, though on another level. Since i am studying economics i am paying more attentions to numbers. On most games this will really make you go crazy :) If you take runescape you can grab an exp caculator and see how long it would take to reach a certain level. Immediatly i think: \"Is that all worth it?\" and then i drop the game. I checked out pristontale, examined how long it takes to reach the first few skills, then saw that the game doesnt improve and hasnt got much else to offer (after checking out an exp tabel for pristontale i knew why i should drop it).

Like the examples above this happened to me in many games (planetarion, shattered galaxy, a-tractor, neocron - early p2p stage,  ...). Some games i didnt even start to play after reading some of the documentation. Of course i have excluded the community aspect of these games - however they can not merely help over a flawed system (they wouldnt help the flaws you see in the game either i suppose).

Back to the Klyros: Your idea of body development being the major factor in flying is a very good idea.

Zeraph

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Update:
« Reply #98 on: October 20, 2004, 01:59:01 am »
I\'ve been busy working on other things, expanding my Knowledge of 3DsMax & everything & I remembered I needed to get something done on the Klyros, so I decided to work on the head, It is proving very difficult, here is what it came to:



Here are some videos showing the head @ different angles:
http://www.geocities.com/zeraphsmirror1/?KlyHead1.dcr (Shockwave3D-16kb)
http://www.geocities.com/zeraphsmirror1/?KlyHead1.swf (Flash-300kb)
I do not know why I went with chrome but whatever...

but then I decided I was just about through with trying to make the head look good & decided to mess around with it to bake a texture & came up with this:

The UVMap is messed up a bit so that\'s why there are black places...

I sort of like it this Way, however I need to fix the nose, but after all this, I think I\'m going to actually abandon the head for now, it\'s to much trouble right now, I\'m going to focus on joining the model & starting the texture maybe... I was thinking what it would look like, would it be scaly or smooth & shiny? it\'s just that I remember the website saying the Klyros\' skin is wet & slimy like a reptile, but there skin is dry & smooth, I\'ll probably go with shiny-skaley....
« Last Edit: October 20, 2004, 02:05:32 am by Zeraph »

CB Characters: Zeph Waterfox & Zeraph Waterfox MB: Zph

Icefalcon

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« Reply #99 on: October 20, 2004, 02:09:05 am »
It looks... ok.
The face definately needs some work, or else it just looks repulsive without a texture on it.  :rolleyes: Either way, it looks repulsive.

Also, I think the crest needs to be thicker, it looks paper thin...

Karyuu

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« Reply #100 on: October 20, 2004, 03:01:37 am »
Right now you\'ve mastered the Ogre look. Just need turn it into an elegant Klyros ;]
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Seytra

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« Reply #101 on: October 24, 2004, 07:40:52 pm »
Well, I think that both nose and mouth need to be reduced by about 50%.

Anyway, as for the skin: I think they meant to say not reptiles, but amphibians (like frogs). These have a wet / slimy skin, and would also more closely match what the Klyros are. If you decide to go with scaly and dry, make the scales very small so it\'ll not be discernible whether it\'s scaly or slimy. :]

@ Adeli: I\'ve sent a PN to you explaining the details so that it\'s not going to further fill up the thread OT-ly. :) Anyone else who might be interested, just PN me.

@ Pegasus: Indeed it wouldn\'t help over these problems. I think I can consider myself lucky because I\'ll at least initially have fun with the games.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2004, 07:47:28 pm by Seytra »

Zeraph

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Changed the Head:
« Reply #102 on: October 25, 2004, 01:48:20 am »
It\'s mesh-smoothed on the left & low-poly on the right. (The Low-Poly is what counts in-game)



Here is what it may look like if I had a texture on it:

(however the UV mapping is messed up & needs to be fixed)

Website: \"Regardless of their appearance, they are not an evil race.\"
- This would imply that the Klyros would have an \"evil appearance\". I\'m saticefied with this face Becouse it sort of looks like the Klyros could be evil without it being overly evil-looking...

I basically paterend this Klyros head from the MB load screen one:
[img]
(& Yes, That is a Klyros)

But I\'m trying to make the head\'s size fit the body naturally, imo it\'s still somewhat small but I\'m working on it & just wanted your opinion on the head, this is for the most part what I imagined the head would look like on a lizard-fish person. however it still needs some tweeking it\'s basically what I was going for. if you think it doesn\'t look human enough, look @ the Enki Head closely in-game. It seams to be much much more Cat-like then Human-like...

CB Characters: Zeph Waterfox & Zeraph Waterfox MB: Zph

Icefalcon

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« Reply #103 on: October 25, 2004, 02:00:05 am »
Ah, much better. The head doesn\'t look small to me, looks fine. Its beautiful  :D

Shadowfalcon

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« Reply #104 on: October 25, 2004, 02:31:01 am »
Nice job on the head! I think that looks almost perfect. Much better than the last head.