Thus it ends.

[Farren Kutter]

Actually, I've seen Syliph(sp?) ingame a lot, just not lately.... he used to be on all the time though.

[Kiern]

The difference between here and in a shop in RL, is that we lose nothing by keeping on GMs/devs/etc. who aren't so active. If you work in a charity as a volunteer, then people are depending on you doing your part for other people to do theirs. We are pretty independant, so kicking someone out for not GMing/deving 3 hours a day every day is just shooting ourselves in the foot.

All well and good if you completely ignore the point I just made.  You do lose something if you keep the inactives, that was the entire point of my last post (as well as Pestilance's).  3 hours a day every day is extremely unrealistic, and it doesn't serve you well to exaggerate on that issue.  Like I said, it really shouldn't be an issue for MOST GMs, but there needs to be something there...just for when that person starts to lose interest, having that minimum there will give them motivation to continue on doing what they volunteered to do in the first place.

The thing is, this IS real life.  We're not talking about roleplaying here, we're talking about running a game.  Not playing the game, running the game.  Anything you volunteer for expects something from you (charity or not, ever volunteered for a school program or something like that?).  Planeshift is the only one I see where you don't even have to do the thing you volunteered for and all that happens is the people you told that you'd actually do something just shrugs it off.

[Kerol]

summer slump.. summer slump.. I think I know where that expression comes from.. People who are so bored that they search for stuff to complain about for the sake of complaining.

Mirashi, why are you so active on the forums? Don't you have better things to do than posting flames against people you don't even know?
Don't you have some RP to play out and actually enjoy the game instead of complaining about GMs being inactive while people don't need them in 99% of the time?

What will you say if you have no chance of checking whether GMs are online or not?
There has been a long discussion about complete invisibility for GMs, making it impossible to see whether they are online.. I had some reservations against that, but with all that, more or less stupid and unbacked complaining, I really vote for that. Only to get rid of people who think they can control GMs, measure their ingame time in relation to their forum time or RL time and best, to kick them just for the sake of doing anything, no matter what.
Actionism this is called. And actionism is what produces the stupidest and worst decisions in RL politics.

Btw, we GMs also have means to check petitions outside of the game. We also have IRC to call for us in emergencies. We don't need to be ingame
to be available.
And believe it or not, GMs get booted if they are inactive for too long. But that doesn't happen because some people who have no idea on the people in the GM team think that it's time to kick all GMs. I find it kind of immature to ask for Akaye to not become GM only because she has other things to do. Do me a favour! Find somebody over 18 who knows the player base (relationship skills), has been around for long enough (game knowledge), has experience in RP (not necessary for the simple GM jobs, but that's what we need for event planning), is fluent in english, can get along with the team mates(YES! Favouritism pure! Without getting along you can screw the whole GM team, wonderful!) AND has 24/7 time for GMing.

Actually all requirements aside from the ironical 24/7 time are those that a person must have to fit into the job. Oh, and one should be able to know when something is enough.

* Kerol goes off to do something for PS that is NOT GMing

PS:
 

[Xordan]

I still see that we lose nothing. As long as we recruit new people every so often and there are GMs actually ingame, there's no reason for us to give a kick up the rear to the current GMs who have a good reason for being inactive. If they're not doing _anything at all_ then I agree there's no reason to keep them around.

[VMann]

Motivation is key.

I fully agree.

Even at a paid job, if you weren't worried about keeping your job you would do much, much less actual work.

But this has something to do with the fact that you have to earn money for your life. I don't know how many donations there have been, or how they are handled, but i don't think they make much of the motivation for GMs at the moment.


What we need now, are more concrete suggestions for the motivation, let's start here:

I've volunteered at a couple of places (thrift stores, etc.), and we still had to show up on time and had set days to work. We couldn't just walk out in the middle of working, either.

I'd be thrown out of any number of places if I volunteered and had that attitude, it just doesn't work on any level.

From what i can see in that post, your motivation was, that you could loose that job. Your motivation not to want this, was probably (i am assuming and generalizing here, correct me if it needs to be), that your goodness in heart and the experiences you have in your job are still good enough motivation for you to want to keep that job, which is the same as we have for GMs now.
Furthermore i am assuming that your volunteer jobs were only for some time, perhaps even set before you accepted the job. The knowledge that this time - that you start experiencing as worth your time - will end at some point, probably makes the feeling that you want to enjoy the job as much as possible even stronger.
A GM (as far as i can see) is given his/her rights "forever" (he/she is not engaged for a limited period of time), so this effect does not arise here. This means that the GM here is in higher danger to loose interest in his job than you were, and probably your jobs were usually over before you came to the point where the boredom/stress/whatever of your job would be greater than your motivation mentioned above.

So this is where we are by now, and now my question to you is: Was there any other motivation for you to do your job? If there was one that could in any way apply to the GMs, please tell it, because that would be what we are all looking for: a concrete solution for the problem.

[Kiern]

So this is where we are by now, and now my question to you is: Was there any other motivation for you to do your job? If there was one that could in any way apply to the GMs, please tell it, because that would be what we are all looking for: a concrete solution for the problem.

Some very good points.  What exactly was it that made me want to keep my job?  Hard to say, but it has to do with reasons why you volunteer in the first place.  I want to help out, so I volunteer.  To be able to help out I have to keep my job and to keep my job I have to put in a certain amount of acceptable work, like you said.

So I guess the answer has to come from GMs.  What exactly motivated them in the first place to volunteer?  To help?  Just for the position?  That's the only reasons I can come up with.  If it's to help, then there is only a problem when this person tires of helping.  Then the solution would be to take a (short) break and decide later if you're willing to come back fully.  For the position?  Then it's back to what I said, fear of losing that position.  Maybe not by having a minimum number of hours logged, there are other ways to go about that, and I regret bringing that up because people will focus on that rather than the big picture.  Maybe after a certain time the GM comes up for review and they have to meet with Talad or someone again.  I don't know, that's just specific ideas and I'd much rather focus on the actual issue.

Unfortunately we can't figure out exactly why each individual GM volunteered, so you'd have to come up with motivation that encompassed them all.  The only thing I can think of is fear of getting kicked out, that is my solution (take it or leave it) that I believe would in fact be concrete but we can't know that.  If I could think of anything else I would, but I'm not a GM and don't want to be one (for the reason that I would NOT be able to give 100%, not because I wouldn't want the responsibility) so my perspective is different.

Sadly though, from Kerol's and Xordan's (and now Tarel's) posts it seems they're not interested in figuring this out and instead fixated on being defensive.  I was hoping to get some interesting points from them but it doesn't look like it's going to happen.  Obviously proper motivation is a big problem...and if they disagree with that there's really nothing that can be done, as it can only be solved by them.   Oh well, I guess I'll have to hope Karyuu comes by some time and give her perspective since it's usually useful.

[Datruth]

I still see that we lose nothing. As long as we recruit new people every so often and there are GMs actually ingame, there's no reason for us to give a kick up the rear to the current GMs who have a good reason for being inactive. If they're not doing _anything at all_ then I agree there's no reason to keep them around.

I still say calling them up on their phone and asking them what's up solves all these problems.

Communication is the key you're all looking for!

Just call up the inactive ones and ask what's up, if they have a good reason, keep um, if not, then do what you feel is best.

Time zones mean nothing, just call late night, or early morning, whenever it's day for their time zone.

It's not like Gm's don't stay up late, so while your awake at 2 in the morning, go and call the inactive ones.

Again, Communication is the key!

[Pestilence]

In RL I am member of a club. This club is divided between the seniors who play mondays and the juniors who play fridays. I myself play Mondays as I am well above 18 but have been helping at the juniors for well must be 7 years now teaching them the ropes I would like to think. I also even tought at schools for a while and might do this again after summervacation.

This was all volunteer work and I can tell you, you can not just say "hey I'm not feeling like it today". Ofcourse there are days that you are more motivated then others, but you have to remind yourself that it is your own choice.

Being a GM is the same in my eyes. You know it will eat a lot of your time from the get go. But you also know you are privilidged to be allowed to do it. You are trusted with the responsibilities. If you no longer feel you are able to do this one of those responsibilities in my eyes would also be stepping down on your own accord before someone needs to kick you out.

Now 3 hours a day was mentioned and ofcourse this is ridiculous as a minimum, but I do feel something like 1/hour a day avarage over a monthstime isn't to much to ask.

[Tarel]

Well I'm sure that Tarel and Kerol would know the rules by now, but I still fail to see them ingame. And when they are, they're afk.

Well I've never even heard of Frostmorn or Syilph, on the forums or ingame. Maybe it isn't best to remove them, but it'd be nice to get some more GM's who are actually active ingame, instead of just 10 minutes a day.

I personally feel very offended by you, Mirashi.
I am very dedicated to Planeshift and when i am ingame, i am never afk.
I dedicate all my spare time to Planeshift.
As far as i know, i am a Game Master, who is spending most time ingame as Game Master.
When you think i am always afk, then think again.
It shows that you lack in you're knowledge
and you don't know me at all and can't judge upon me at all.
I have very much players asking help from me all the time and are
willing to wait some time, till i have time to answer them.

And maybe an update on you're petitions.
You are not the only one who makes petitions and the
Game Master have to deal with the urgent petitions first.
Also a lot of players are using the petition system as wish place or sent other crap to it.

I also contributed all my time to the crafting system.
Without my contribution, you would still not be able to craft shields and weapons.
And furthermore, my task is with the "police force" of Planeshift, because i am low ranked.
So i am dealing with players breaking the rules too.
I am a Game Master level 2, if i may update you on that.

I have days of 6 hours that i am online. is that is not enough for you?
And besides that i try to be online 7 days a week, when i am not working.
I dedicate at least 12 hours a week to be ingame as Game Master.
And now before you start flaming me, for me posting in the forums,
i can tell you, that i can't be ingame now, simply because i am working at this very moment.
it has got nothing to do with not wanting to be ingame.

Syilph and Frostmorn are very dedicated GM's too, just like Kerol.
I don't like to see flaming at them, when they are not posting in here.
If you have not seen them ingame it can either mean, that you just are not looking well enough or you are simply not online, when they are.
All the current GM's are active, but don't forget that all GM's can be online at anytime.
Maybe that's because the clock has got 24 hour's a day and everyone has got an own real life
and work to do.
for example i am a fulltime male nurse and work different shifts, so i am random times ingame.
And also the higher rank you have in the Game Masters, the more responsibility you have
in Planeshift.
There is a lot of paper work to do, most of the time too.

And i don't understand why you are complaining at all.
No Developer or Game Master ever gets paid for they time they contribute to Planeshift.
And the players don't pay for playing this pre alpha game too.
Everyone should be happy, that the developers and Talad choose to share this game with
everyone, while they are still developing it.
You can better play ingame, then waste all you're time in the forums flaming at the GM-group.
The Game Masters are working as hard as they can, to help as much players as possible.
You don't know half of what the GM's are doing ingame and in IRC.
I know that we can't please everyone.
That is a simple fact in every game.
People who dislike the GM-team will come and go all the time and that will never change.

When you say, whe should be ingame always and not in IRC, it would mean,
that you will never get GM-events.
The GM-team is very busy at this moment with creating events for the
coming period and need IRC to discuss things.
Also if a Game Master created an event, it still needs to be approved by Talad.
Without the approval of Talad, the GM-event is not allowed and won't come ingame.
Writing GM-events and get approval takes time, specially for the bigger events.

I am tired of this whole discussion and can tell you,
that i won't participate in this discussion anymore too,
because i don't support it.

It looks like you want babysitters, that you can control and dismiss
whenever you as player wish it.
But i can tell you that this will never happen.
This discussion will not change the GM-team, simply because you want it.
Talad is the Big Boss in here and he deals with the GM's and not any player.
If Talad thinks that things needs to be changed, then it will happen.
Not sooner or later.
Players can say things, but Talad has got the final word in everything that concerns Planeshift.

[Pestilence]

hmm have to add to this that Tarel in my opinion is not a problem GM so to speak.

Haven't seen him much these last weeks but for more then a month before that I have seen him ingame almost everytime I was. Seeing him online when I came on and seeing him still online when I left three hours later or leaving just before me.

I know for a fact his avarage of those days must be enormous and that I don't see him now may just be becuase he is online at different times becuase of work or becuase he has vacation now.

Tarel in no way is an inactive GM.

[Karyuu]

Must keep up with posts. Must keep up. Okay. One step at a time, sorry in advance for the length.

Mirashi:

moderaters should stay on the forums, GM's should stay ingame.

What of those who are both? Anyway, please remember that GMs too need to keep in touch with the community, and I often hound Kerol to keep up with some thread here or there because it will be of interest to the GM team. We can't just stick to the game, because the forums are part of it as well. And we can't often be in-game and check the forums at the same time, so we come by whenever we have a few minutes that would be too short to spend in-game for something useful, and read up. Is that a crime? Does that mean the GMs reading the forums are slacking off? No way. I think they too have every right to read on what everyone else thinks of them and what suggestions they are making that would influence their jobs. Besides, a GM may not always have access to PS - repeating my example, I'm away at Lake Tahoe. Thus the forums are my only connection for this week. How would you know what else may be going on with a GM unless they're around here to tell you, so that you avoid making further "slacking off" assumptions.

What do people think is a decent "extended time of inactivity" before a GM should get booted? Should there be exceptions for computer problems, life events? Would a GM have to reapply all over again afterwards? Laragorn suggested they "be accountable for a set number of hours per week in game," but nooo thanks. Weeks change, and unless these very frequent things get taken into account, this will hurt the team more than weed out the problems. That's a bit too frequent of a counter for my taste. And again, what happens if something comes up? Bam, computer blew apart without a warning - you try to get a word in, but then find that through no fault of your own you have been striped of your ability to help.

For those who brought them up:

Tarel is very hardworking. He tries as much as he can to be around and help out with anything he can. Frostmorn has had computer problems, and Syilph is on vacation.

Don't treat all GMs as one if you are going to go on a "lazy" rant. That's completely unfair, and you come off as very rude even if you don't want to sound that way. I agree that there are a few GMs that I would definitely like to see around more that can be around, but the majority of us are not around because we have some things keeping us back at this time. To attribute our lack of presence to lazyness only makes me want to bite people

About GMs and petitions: sometimes we leave them open so that other GMs can come in and take a look as well, and perhaps because other GMs will be better suited to take care of the problem. I don't know what petitions were made that have been brought up here, but they're not always closed, and sometimes we only have so much time to spend in PS and we have to prioritise between helping someone report a really bad bug or /teleporting someone out of a stuck area. We don't always have hours to spend weeding through everything, though we try to make time for as much as we can.

Xillix: excellent post, I'm going to be saving that one away And thanks for that nomination. Now the question is, would Proglin accept it? He'd have my "vote" for sure.

Kiern:

What exactly motivated them in the first place to volunteer?

I can't speak for everyone, but it's probably true for everyone more than it isn't: to help players in trouble, and to run events. That's my motivation to stick around still. If someone's having a problem and I call help out, I am filled with glee.

Maybe after a certain time the GM comes up for review and they have to meet with Talad or someone again.

Focusing on the smaller picture just for a bit, I wouldn't mind personal progress reports from time to time. I'm sure that being asked a direct "What have you done in all this time?" can quickly point out problems. It can be tough on low-level GMs because they can only do so much, but here's their chance to prove themselves ready to move up as well.

I think the problem is that some people just lose interest, and there's really no motivation to speak of. When a volunteer job becomes a chore, it's time to let it go either temporarily or permanently. It feels like some people just have a withered grip on their jobs and I can't pinpoint any fears of losing it for that minority. But this is something that we have to talk about internally, as it's not going to get solved on these public boards. Just reaching those inactive GMs to tell them what's up will be problematic.

Datruth:

I still say calling them up on their phone and asking them what's up solves all these problems.

We live all over the world, again. Calling can be expensive. And besides, some GMs are away from their permanent residences on summer vacations.

So a kind of quick summary, because after reading all these posts and trying to reply, I'm losing track of things:

We do have inactive GMs. Inactive in the sense that they probably can be around, but aren't for unknown reasons (meaning, nothing big is keeping them away such as vacations that we know of). They are the 0.1% of the team. The others are simply, sadly busy. This has been a sort of wake-up call, and I think I can speak for all of us when I say that we'll try to be around even more. Give us a bit of time before major changes are seen, however. You're not going to see 4 GMs log on tomorrow, nor our numbers decrease/increase within the week.

[Mirashi]

It just seems to me they're never online when I need them, like yesterday when my friend was stuck. I crashed a few minutes later and I found about 3 GM's on the forums, but none ingame. You say there are a lot of active GM's, but not very active ingame, the way I see it. It's a responsibility, like I was saying before, and maybe you are needed on IRC, but the forums are more for Karyuu and Santiago, not the game masters. I'm probably offending a lot of people in some way, but we need people ingame, not on the forums. There's so many things I see all the time that happen ingame where GM's are needed, but none are there. It would be simple if you could go ingame along with the forums and IRC. But only going ingame for about 5 minutes then spending hours on the forums, it's like you're ignoring your job.

And like I said, it's voluntary, but it's a job, and if you did this, and it was a paying job, you would certainly be fired. These are things that come with being a GM: responsibility, getting asked to do a lot of things, helping people, submitting bugs, running events (for a certain few), and a few other things I can't remember at the moment. But in no way do the forums relate to any of these, except maybe helping people, but any active forum member can do that too. You GM's have more powers than normal players. If someone's totally stuck and can't move, where's the GM to help them? If someone needs a name change ingame, where's the GM? Sure there's petitions, but it takes days (and don't dare tell me different, it took 3 days for my petitions to finally be read, so just don't bother giving me any crap about that) for these petitions to be checked, because chances are a GM's more busy on the forums than ingame. If you want to volunteer for forum moderator or something, than do that. Karyuu does her job well, she stays on the forums a lot and keeps the idiots at bay, and helps people who ask questions here. But this isn't a GM's jurisdiction.

Like I said a lot of posts before, I know GM's are people too, and they have to do things in real life a lot, but if you can't go ingame at all to do what you volunteered for, you should lay down your role, because you're not exactly doing your job. Sure, you don't get paid for it or rewarded in any way, but I don't know your reasons for becoming GM's, but once you take on the role, you need to help people out, because there are ALWAYS people who need it. Every time I need help, I'll check the /who game list, and no one's ever online. Same with a lot of other people as well. Now I'm being hounded by all the GM's, but as a player and tester, I'm doing my job, submitting bugs when I see them, and roleplaying when I feel like it. It's a GM's job to help others ingame, and all that crap I said above, but it's not being done in good time. Now, I didn't know about Frostmorn and Syilph, and I won't point any of this at them. But, Tarel and Kerol, I see you guys on the forums so much more than I see you ingame. Kerol, I saw you ingame maybe 15 minutes today, which really isn't enough. And Tarel, I was gone a while today, but I don't believe you've been online at all today. Since Syilph and Frostmorn can't get ingame or do anything at all for RL reasons, they aren't blamed. But you two can get on the forums, so it's just as easy to get in game. Yet, you won't, and if you do you'll normally go afk inside, or stay for a few minutes then leave shortly after.

And Tarel, if you weren't afk, you were clearly ignoring me. Now, the first time around when I asked you for something, and after about 10 minutes after I asked, you did it, then quickly left again when I said something else. A while later you logged out without answering me. Just like I said before: You make up a bunch of bullcrap about being online and helping others and things, but really all you do is stay on the forums trying to defends yourselves with lies, saying things you SHOULD be doing, but aren't REALLY doing. If you're going to say you're an active GM who helps others and is dedicated to PlaneShift, then show me, don't just talk on about it. People need your help, and are being ignored. Now sure, you guys will be online sometimes, but once in a rare while do I actually see more GM's ingame than I do on the forums. In fact, I never do, maybe 1 out of 4 on the forums - if even that - will be ingame at that time. And the funny thing is, when you, Kerol, Uyaem, and some other GM were on the forums, Noxide was ingame, and he didn't come to the forums and do what you're doing now, he actually read my petitions and did some other things that were long overdue. Now why can't you guys do that? It'd really help the community, instead of sitting here on the forums having to defend yourselves with what Noxide or any other active GM's doing, but not you yourselves.

Now I suppose you'll try to say something in defense, but once again not do anything ingame. I'm NOT going to repeat myself. If you're going to say crap, you need to do crap, otherwise you don't deserve to be a GM. Take some responsibility for God's sakes.

[Karyuu]

Mirashi, you are repeating yourself as if you haven't read my post at all.

You have made the points you have wanted to make. This repetition and accusations that are approaching real flames, are not wanted.

[Mirashi]

I'm aware of that, and I was concerned with off-topic posts before, but it's been brought to my attention (and since this has already gone seriously off-topic beyond my control, I might as well post my observations here) that the community would be so better off if people just did their jobs. I skimmed through your post, but now I'll read the full thing.

*Goes off to read.

Edit: Alright, I read. But, none of what you said changes the point I'm trying to make. I did count Frostmorn and Syilph out of this, since they can't get ingame at all. But Tarel and Kerol can go ingame, yet they refuse to, and spend more time on the forums where they're not really needed (since one: It's your job, and you do it well, Karyuu. And two: people don't get stuck in the coding on forums and frozen to where they need teleported).

[Karyuu]

No, you still haven't read anything I posted.

People sometimes don't have the time or ability to log in-game, so they check the forums. Moreover, where did you see anything about Tarel or Kerol refusing to go in-game? That is just making things up to make them look bad, and I would appreciate it if you cool off and stop posting as if to offend people. If you want to contact Tarel or Kerol directly to discuss their GMing schedules, you are most free to. However, I definitely don't like this posting manner of yours.

Now I'm not denying it that more active GMs are necessary. But we're trying to be calm about how we're posting, and not aggravate people. You're not doing a very good job at this time.

*edited to add*

Have we forgotten about the /die command? Yes, it's an inconvenience, but it's here for testing purposes and just such scenarios when you're stuck and a GM is not available. This is similar to people dragging GMs into their personal in-game arguments when a simple /ignore would do the job. If you have commands to help you, it is lazy to want to wait for a GM to make things easier for you.