Usual, semi-annual complain

[Sen]

Im personally not sure if it really got worse or better; there are developments into both directions.
For example, when I meet new people I often see that they e.g. rp asking for how to get here and there, and I don't recall having seen that often in the past What happens more often to me is that people are, as you have written, so busy with their own stuff that it sometimes looks more like a single player game where others are widely ignored if they don't have anything to offer that helps in progressing with skills or items.

Nevertheless I have to agree that such behaviour like you were referring to is rather annoying. Happily are roleplaying rules enforced on laanx so this shouldn't happen there </irony>

Like stated in other threads started many who rp on laanx as non-rpers or something between. Sure there are always people who do not even want to learn or consider it, but for the less serious cases there is hope that they will good players somewhen.

And as last point: No wipe! People like me who are only half-rpers would suffer

Sen

#edit# Typo...

[Rigwyn]

Just my two tria ... but I think that raising the requirements for starting a new guild on laanx might help.

Currently anyone who can swing a pick for an hour or two and convince four other players to join can start one... For laanx I think it would help if only experienced players could start one. Perhaps raise the requirements to 500k or so and an IC interview with a gm or some in-game official who would test their ability to rp and their knowledge of the settings.

 

[neko kyouran]

ah wipe threads....


the memories, the memories.....

[Aiwendil]

Last time I was in Kada-El's, there was no trouble, and I've seen no disruptive behaviour for a long time.

I think two killed persons yesteday on the plaza and three the day before just in the short time I was there. People attacking others in Kada El's with their pets and spamming the main chat with useless attack messages. Ah, and I forgot all those people in guilds in war at the moment that run around in hyldaa with drawn weapons searching for their next victim.

So I say don't make a big deal about it - If there's a player which is causing problems, /report him.

This is not about OOC disruption. It's simple to deal with those for me. I just put the players on /ignore. A /report is not even needed for this. This is about the 90% of players on laanx who have no clue about Roleplay at all. At the moment there is no point in calling Laanx a RP server, it's simply not true (anymore).

Like stated in other threads started many who rp on laanx as non-rpers or something between. Sure there are always people who do not even want to learn or consider it, but for the less serious cases there is hope that they will good players somewhen.

Please let me say again that this is not a complain about people who do RP and PL at the same time or people who only train their skills but stay out of all RP. It's a complain about those who completely ignore everything around them and think that everything the game meachanics allow them to do is fine.

Just my two tria ... but I think that raising the requirements for starting a new guild on laanx might help.

Currently anyone who can swing a pick for an hour or two and convince four other players to join can start one... For laanx I think it would help if only experienced players could start one. Perhaps raise the requirements to 500k or so and an IC interview with a gm or some in-game official who would test their ability to rp and their knowledge of the settings.

Not sure about the 500K, that's a lot money...at least for me. I think I never had that much money in the two years I play. But an IC interview or at least a discussion in the forums about each new guild before it is allowed to be created seems to be a really good idea to me.

ah wipe threads....


the memories, the memories.....

Hehe, I'm open for every other solution. I only mentioned the wipe of ezpcusa because it just couldn't be turned in the RP server with the current naming policy there.

[Elady]

A wipe isn't going to cure problems like people dueling on the plaza ( or people running around in Hydlaa with weapons drawn) or fighting in Kada-Els. To stop those problems we need some basic enforcement of the rules. Yes the number of GMs is limited and they have other issues to deal with most of the time I'm sure. Maybe the GM team needs to recruit some players who have proven to be trustworthy and have them run some additional guards who can enforce the no dueling and weapons drawn rules in Hydlaa. If someone is caught to many times breaking the rules in Hydlaa then ban them form laanx. People break the rules because they know they can get away with breaking the rules. That will not change no matter how many wipes or server moves you have. Now if people get caught breaking the rules and have to serve some kind of penalty then they will stop breaking the rules so often.


As for new guilds and new players getting sucked into them maybe we need some kind of mentor program. Established characters who are willing to spend some time helping newer characters/players.  Yes some of this help would be OOC via tells or group but if it helps new characters along and gives them a more enjoyable time and makes them better players I think it is a good thing. I know I have a reputation as knowing a lot about cooking and will often get tells from people I've never met asking for help with getting started in cooking. I have no problem helping people when I can.  Maybe we need a list of people willing to be mentors or advisors to new players. I think new people look to join a guild since they are looking for a support system. Offer them a support system outside of joining a guild ( and newer players don't know the difference from joining an older established guild vs joining a new guild) and maybe they would be more willing to take their time before joining a guild.  I didn't join the first guild that asked me to join but I have a more independent nature than a lot of people.

Another idea is maybe we need to set up regular guild recruiting events so that people could get information about several guilds easily and then hopefully make a better decision about what guild they want to join. Kind of like meet and greet for guild who are looking for new members.

[Sen]

To throw in another point:
Even if I put myself out of favour I think that gms should pay more attention to this. We made a big thing out of roleplaying rules and covenant, and now it looks like it has no consequences at all.
We assume there are laws within the game world, guards and whatever we need. But players/chars can simply ignore and do what they want, because nothing they do has consequences due to the lack of possibilities in game mechanics. Therefore we now have the rp rules. But players can simply ignore and do what they want, because nothing they do has consequences due to.... why?
Rather than <forbidden word that looks like w**e> I would hope that the rules actually do get enforced. If a gm sees a chars fighting in front of the guard tower they should get arrested[tm] (Like, get told they committed a crime and either put into jail or get banned for two hours or so). That would have a learning effect at least on those who just didn't know better.
A petition can't fully replace a system like that since they are wether realtime nor have comprhensive information/proofs about what happened.

The idea about guilds having to be approved is very good

Sen

#edit# And again I was too slow with my post...

[verden]

All protests against a wipe are "my precious" protests whether stated as such or not. This is a development system in an alpha state. If this was any other company in the world other than Atomic Blue, the characters would have been reset multiple times at this point. These developers have been too nice to you for this stage of development in a game. The database is jammed packed with the indirect fruits of past exploits. There is old bad data sitting around in the database. This is going to have to be cleared. Whether a wipe happens tomorrow or in two years, its going to happen. One of the primary benefits to a wipe is that a whole new class of bugs will surface and get taken care of, as well as the cleaning of the database. Nobody has yet posted details of what exactly a wipe will mean, so arguments on this are somewhat gratuitous until the terms of the wipe are actually stated.

[Aiwendil]

A wipe isn't going to cure problems like people dueling on the plaza ( or people running around in Hydlaa with weapons drawn) or fighting in Kada-Els. To stop those problems we need some basic enforcement of the rules.

I completely agree there. A wipe isn't helping at all...a strict separation of RP and Non-RP server will. Sorry if I wasn't clear about this, but this was my main intention for my suggesting to wipe ezpcusa. But if all those issues can be solved by enforcing the rules I'm the last one who will complain about it.

As for new guilds and new players getting sucked into them maybe we need some kind of mentor program. Established characters who are willing to spend some time helping newer characters/players.  Yes some of this help would be OOC via tells or group but if it helps new characters along and gives them a more enjoyable time and makes them better players I think it is a good thing. I know I have a reputation as knowing a lot about cooking and will often get tells from people I've never met asking for help with getting started in cooking. I have no problem helping people when I can.  Maybe we need a list of people willing to be mentors or advisors to new players. I think new people look to join a guild since they are looking for a support system. Offer them a support system outside of joining a guild ( and newer players don't know the difference from joining an older established guild vs joining a new guild) and maybe they would be more willing to take their time before joining a guild.  I didn't join the first guild that asked me to join but I have a more independent nature than a lot of people.

I don't blame new players for joining those guilds, I blame the guilds for even existing on a RP server. And the idea of mentors is nice, but who is going to do this? And how should they be selected? Should everyone be able to become such a mentor? What is the difference to the current situation with OOC guilds teaching new players then? Hehe...and I doubt I'm the right person to complain about OOC help. Nothing wrong with this.

Xargon Guurn says: Let's see if you are paying attention... Is using the help channel asking how to use the furnace an in character or out of character means of getting help?

Another idea is maybe we need to set up regular guild recruiting events so that people could get information about several guilds easily and then hopefully make a better decision about what guild they want to join. Kind of like meet and greet for guild who are looking for new members.

Sure, but that's something the guilds need to organize themselves. Not so sure if it would be a good idea for the outlaws to attend such an recruitment event.

[verden]

Actually, we could just have Non-RP and RP instances on each server. By default, one would be in the Non-RP instance, and would have to actually apply for the RP instance. Guilds costs should be raised to 100k (after a wipe). The problem with rules-enforcement, organizing, approval of guilds, tutoring players is that the people that provide these functions need to be present 24/7 otherwise they will not get taken seriously by anyone. A programmatic series of approaches will be the only thing in the long run that will guarantee that the features are applied equally to all users without bias or hint of bias. There has been significant trouble in the past with people abusing the system from both without and within.

[Illysia]

Actually, we could just have Non-RP and RP instances on each server. By default, one would be in the Non-RP instance, and would have to actually apply for the RP instance. Guilds costs should be raised to 100k (after a wipe). The problem with rules-enforcement, organizing, approval of guilds, tutoring players is that the people that provide these functions need to be present 24/7 otherwise they will not get taken seriously by anyone. A programmatic series of approaches will be the only thing in the long run that will guarantee that the features are applied equally to all users without bias or hint of bias. There has been significant trouble in the past with people abusing the system from both without and within.

Umm.. nice a idea but if people don't want to put the effort into going to EZPC why would they hassle with the instance?   And raising the guild cost 100k is not a problem for people willing to grind.  It is a bad idea to separate RPers from eveyone else though. I'm sorry but a great deal of RPers complain a great deal and then when appeased sit and do nothing.  

I have been running the Stonehead tavern for months now. If you have a problem with the RP atmosphere in Hydlaa come out to the tavern. And there are plenty ways to justify it. If you can't spread out and let your character do slightly different things then you have a problem much greater than ooc guild battles. Nothing will ever fix what goes on in hydlaa... people comming from other MMOs will initially treat PS the same, so there always bee these infractures. But if you let it make you not find other ways or places to RP then that shows a lack of imagination...  

And to add for good measure... http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35293.msg407468#msg407468

[Orgonwukh]

Poll proposal:

What would you prefer?

A Enforce roleplay on Laanx, punish more violations and punish harder
B Soften rules on Laanx
C Keep things as they are


Maybe you could also offer people to migrate their trained char(s) to ezpcusa. This might be an alternative, because I think many PL-onlyers just do not switch servers because of the high skills of their chars (among other reasons Aiwendil described above).

I think a wipe is no solution at the moment because many might leave after a wipe and there are too few players around already.

[Elady]

I'll just say yes I realize the game in in development and I can liven with a wipe if it is needed to further the development process. I just don't want to see a wipe as a solution for people behaving badly in the game when such a wipe will not do anything to solve the problem.


The better enforce the laws in Hydlaa we don't need guards on duty 24/7. The idea isn't to catch every single instance of fighting or people running around with weapons in hand. The idea is to catch enough people, and punish them, so that people will think twice about doing these things. Some people wil always push their luck and break the rules and hope they don't get caught. But most people will tend to avoid breaking the rules if they feel there is enough of a chance that they will get caught and busted for breaking the rules. Maybe just a concentrated period of rule enforcement for a short period will be enough to reduce the problem of fighting in the city for a long time. I have plenty of RL experience to know you can tell people until you are blue in the face to stop breaking rule but it isn't until you have a period of strict enforcement of the rules and you penalize some people that most will start to follow the rules.. Generally once you have gotten the message across you can lighten up on the enforcement for a while until the problem starts getting bad again.

As for people who are willing to act as mentors maybe have them sign up on the forum and then hopefully advisors or others in game can use that list to refer new characters looking for help to the volunteer mentors.

No proposal will be perfect and if you want to you can pick holes in any proposal. The idea isn't to make things perfect but how to take steps to make things better than they are currently.

And I'll second Illysia's plug for people looking for RP to come out to the Stonehead and keep us volunteers to are working there company and RP with us. Illysia has done a great job getting the Stonehead up and running and I think we have a good crew of folks who are there on a regular basis to give you someone to talk to or help support your RP.

[Duraza]

Just some things I'd like to mention...

Firstly @Verden specifically, raising prices to make a guild isn't going to help.... Raising the prices will just encourage more grind. I'm not saying players raising money is wrong, or leveling is wrong, only that your logic there is faulty. The more you raise the price won't discourage players from trying to make it. It will only increase the amount who do...Look at WoW for example, they raise the levels and the amount of grind needed, but that only makes players more desperate to
reach it. It's the whole 'beat the game' mindset.
 

The idea about guilds having to be approved is very good.

Approved guilds is a good idea. I'm sure its been mentioned before in the past and then it was no doubt a good idea too. The question is who is doing the approving? We have, in the past, had a specific guild forums mod if I'm remembering right and he was pretty good at his job. Even then though, you didn't get 'approved' to be a guild. You could run the guild however you wanted regardless...You can try to make a Guild Covenant (like the RP Covenant) but I question how well the method would work. Still, its a good idea. I prefer the idea of someone waving a hammer towards everything that sucks but you've got to have someone chosen for the job who can do it.

As for new guilds and new players getting sucked into them maybe we need some kind of mentor program.

A mentor program sounds good too but I'm unsure on how it would be executed. A way that works doesn't directly come to mind.

At the moment I'm tempted to say that the guild creation system should be changed....But I think I'll make a separate thread to express those thoughts and not let this thread go off topic.

I think a wipe is no solution at the moment because many might leave after a wipe and there are too few players around already.

Its a good point but one day players will have to realize wipes will be inevitable, whether to fix bugs or because XilliX feels like it 

[kiou]

just meh two tria [i always thought tria is better pluralized as tria] about the law enforcment

it needs to be handled IC which is sorta the problem, they need more guards and all. If i [hypothetically ] was evil then i should be able to attack someone in a city, however i shouldnt be banned, i should have a guard or 30 sicked on me. I think the gms could totally have "higher citizens] or guards who are entitled to be officers of the peace. But you cant deal with it with bans, IC, i draw  my sword and disapear for a week? I think not, i draw my sword a guard sees me and arrests, much better [you know what i mean].

yeah

[Prolix]

Bah you don't need a wipe, you just need random instances of perma-death, when your number comes up dakkru owns your soul.