PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: Datruth on November 18, 2006, 09:28:28 am
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Here is the link to it: http://youtube.com/watch?v=W3CdNgoC0cE
Watch it before you read ANYTHING!
Unbiased Account on the Situation:
http://www.blakeross.com/2006/11/17/on-the-ucla-tasering/
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I Quote:
* UCLA student Mostafa Tabatabainejad was working in the library when a Community Service Officer approached and asked him to show school ID as part of a posted library policy barring unauthorized persons after 11PM. Mostafa did not have his ID and did not leave immediately. It is unclear if he refused to leave and, if so, whether he was belligerent. The CSO contacted the campus police, which have the same authority as municipal cops.
* Multiple campus policemen arrived as Mostafa was apparently exiting the library. One of them put a hand on Mostafa, inciting him to shout angrily.
* An officer Tasered Mostafa using the “drive stun” setting (i.e. via direct contact instead of shooting).
* After placing Mostafa in handcuffs, officers continued to Taser Mostafa multiple times. Mostafa yelled that he was cooperating and that he had a medical condition. Officers ordered him to “stand up” repeatedly, which he did not do.
* At least two dozen students witnessed the event. Multiple students demanded badge numbers from the officers on scene and told them that they were out of line. At least one of the students requesting the information was threatened with the Taser directly.
ALL THIS HAPPEND TUESDAY, of this Week.
At UCLA, of all places, In the United States.
I'm shocked and Appaled.
This was the Most Heinous thing i've ever witnessed.
He was Handcuffed and yet he STILL was tazed....
That is wrong, even by the LAPD's Manual TAZER POLICIES (http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/ucpd/zippdf/2006/Taser_Policies.pdf)
I'm going to This weekends Protest, UCLA is a school i'm planning on attending in 3 years, I won't allow this to happen again.
Amnesty International is looking into this.
~~Datruth
P.s I highly recommend you read the Second link, which has an Eye Witnesses account of what happened.
http://www.blakeross.com/2006/11/17/on-the-ucla-tasering/
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*Matt, with a very awake little man on his shoulder.*
Amazing, isn't it? Whether something is a big deal or not to someone all depends on how much they can relate to it.
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Amazing, isn't it? Whether something is a big deal or not all depends on who's affected.
So it was Near my home, i live near UCLA and i plan on attending it.
I can see what you mean by why i would call this a big deal, regardless of all the facts and video.
But what facts or opinions do you have as to regard this as..... a small deal.
We are both in agreement atleast, this is a BIG deal for All of america, Not just us in Southern California.
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I re-worded my post, so it's a tad more concise. Basically, I'm saying that I could list a whole slew of things that I've seen just off the top of my head, yet although objectively they may be more shocking or brutal, they wouldn't shock you near as much, because they are unrelated to your life.
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I re-worded my post, so it's a tad more concise. Basically, I'm saying that I could list a whole slew of things that I've seen just off the top of my head, yet although objectively they may be more shocking or brutal, they wouldn't shock you near as much, because they are unrelated to your life.
I know what you mean phin, Iraq is worse than this, and yet i'm less shocked, because it doesn't affect me.
This jump started my life though phin, i need to take more things into perspective, not just stuff near me.
Read all these comments guys, really incitefull:
http://digg.com/videos_people/Student_tasered_at_UCLA_library_for_not_having_his_ID_11_14_06_11_30pm
"Kids have been getting kicked out of libraries since time immemorial; today they are tortured with electricity if they don't do it quickly enough."
Don't be caught without your papers, or the Gestapo will take you away.
Which one was that? Protecting or serving?
Innocent untill Proven Guilty, Not taze them to death
according to a study published in the Lancet Medical Journal in 2001, a charge of three to five seconds can result in immobilization for five to 15 minutes, which would mean that Tabatabainejad could have been physically unable to stand when the officers demanded that he do so.
Alex Trebek: Who said, "Almost all cases of police abuse are related to the person not being respectful. Police are people of authority. Didn't most people's parents teach to respect authority."
Contestant: "Who is Hitler?"
This makes me sick. They taser the guy, and then while he is incapacitated, tell him to stand up? That's like torturing for someone for information by removing their tongue, and then telling them if they don't tell you what you want to know, you'll start breaking bones. These cops are either criminally stupid for not knowing the effects of their own weapons, or criminally insane for wilfully torturing the guy.
How quick do you think you could get up after someone tazered you?
The fact remain, regardless of what the study said/yelled, police officers should only use the of force necessary to detain a suspect or prevent them causing harm to other people or otherwise violate the law.
Considering the student was laying on the ground (which means that he was incapacitated) the police could have safely waited until he recovered and then either arrest him or escort him out of the building. Waiting would have not caused any harm to any one.
** Note ** I am a firm believer that law enforcement should be allowed to use the appropriate amount of force (event deadly force if necessary) if someones actions could kill or seriously harm others.
What pisses me off (and it should piss you off, as well) is when police fail to exercise proper restraint.
I'll never understand why police officers demand compliance when the individual is unable to comply. And then punish you for non-compliance.
If you get tazed you really can't move because all of your muscles are in spasm. So, it's kind of hard to stand up.
I don't care if he was being disrespectful.
I don't care if he was instigating a confrontation.
And I don't care if he refused to leave (which he didn't, because you clearly hear him tell the cops he's leaving right before he gets tasered).
The point is, he was CLEARLY incapacitated after he was tasered, if not the first time, then the second time (or the third, or the fourth, or the fifth...) and at that point any further use of force by the police was unnecessary. What continued to unfold from that point on amounts to torture, and abuse.
WHAT CAN YOU DO?
Contact Barbara Boxer, Our Senator
http://boxer.senate.gov/contact/offices/la.cfm
Los Angeles
312 N. Spring Street, Suite 1748
Los Angeles, CA 90012
(213) 894-5000
(213) 894-5042 fax
TTY: 202-224-4264
Contact the Chancellor: chancellor@conet.ucla.edu
Give the police a call. Let them know what you think.
http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/ucpd/contact.html
Chief of Police,
Karl T. Ross
825-1633
kross@
ucpd.ucla.edu
Official police report here:
http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/ucpd/zippdf/2006/Taser%2011-15-06.pdf
~~Datruth
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EDIT: NEW INFO OUT
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4ZiIebst4fc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uhYCeO67fCs&watch_response
Thank god for Keith Olberman, atleast someone has the balls to report this.
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More media
http://www.laist.com/archives/2006/11/17/ucla_students_demonstrate_against_ucpd_taser_use.php
http://ktla.trb.com/news/ktla-uclataser,0,4201981.story?coll=ktla-news-1
http://ktla.trb.com/news/la-me-taser18nov18-pg,0,3890542.photogallery?coll=ktla-news-1&index=1
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I did the same thing....
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Mr. Tabatabainejad didnt handle the situation very well at all, but does this provoke the use of a taser? NO
It amazes me how some of the people who have responded on other forums, think the officers were justified in the repeated tasing.
On the other side, it was a fast leap to racial profiling.
IMHO it was a F'ed up situation from the start, however once Mr. Tabatabainejad was in cuffs there was no need whatsoever to tase him again and again. He was endagering no one, he was not trying to encite a riot as many have proclaimed. Passive-Agressive protest are no reason for tasing, there were enough officers there to just pick him up and remove him from the building and put him in one of the four cruisers outside. The threatening of other students asking for badge numbers and names was also a big NO-NO. An officer cannot threaten violence for a request for identification, a warning of arrest would have been more appropriate to the situation.
It will be interesting to see the outcome of the various investigations.
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He showed no respect for authority, and refused to comply with their orders. he got the tazer, he then continued to be obstinate, and not follow orders, he got tazered again.
Justice is served. He should keep getting that tazer until he listens to what he is being told. if that doesnt work. I heard lead pipes have a better effect.
They should have billy-clubbed him into submission.
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Police are stupid in my opinion. On one Cops show, they all tried to yank a guy out of his window because he was speeding, and he just stopped and put his hands up. Wasn't going to hurt them or anything, and they yank him, BY HIS SHIRT, out the window.
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Of course he didn't want to hurt them, but what if he did hurt innocent ones in his speed cruise uhm? As for what Datruth posted, come on people, be serious! Such a big deal for what? For nothing...
That's why police exists, to "shut the mouths" of that kind of persons, aye? Violence? A world full of "love" will simply fall apart.
:love:
Now now, going to the club, party!
\\o//
* edit *
oh, and to shut some mouths myself, you see, not just Phin can do this.
ALL THIS HAPPEND TUESDAY,
It's, "all these happened on Tuesday".
Just being evil. Now kiss meh!
:-*
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This has happened lots of times in different places (the stunning while handcuffed etc.) across the USA in the past, but people don't really care unless it happens near them. It doesn't really get reported for more than a day either.
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Xordan is correct, there were similar incidences of police brutality during the WTO protests in Seattle(1999), the Republican National Convention in NYC (2003), and the WTO protests in Miami (2003). Many protesters who were already cuffed were having pepper sprayed directly into their eyes by police. Although these incidences are a little different from what happened to Mr. Tabatabainejad, during the RNC many police officers had no badge numbers visible. Secret police in the US? You bet.
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He showed no respect for authority, and refused to comply with their orders. he got the tazer, he then continued to be obstinate, and not follow orders, he got tazered again.
Justice is served. He should keep getting that tazer until he listens to what he is being told. if that doesnt work. I heard lead pipes have a better effect.
They should have billy-clubbed him into submission.
Yeah we should all be good little sheep and do what we are told.
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He showed no respect for authority, and refused to comply with their orders. he got the tazer, he then continued to be obstinate, and not follow orders, he got tazered again.
Justice is served. He should keep getting that tazer until he listens to what he is being told. if that doesnt work. I heard lead pipes have a better effect.
They should have billy-clubbed him into submission.
You seem to have missed the fact that you _can't_ stand up once you've been tazered. It causes muscle spasms... so he couldn't actually use any of those muscles to stand up even if he wanted to.
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The least he could do was stop shouting obscenities, and verbally comply, rather than to continue with shouting his disagreement.
He got what was coming to him.
but now people are going to make him seem like a hero, when all he really is, is a stubborn jackass.
What the police should have done rather than telling him to stand, was Tazer him, then haul him down the stairs wherever they were taking him.
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It's a bit hard when you're basically being electrocuted to keep a cool head and not scream and shout in pain. Being tazered hurts a lot, more than being shot. The guy probably can't do anything about it, as he should have just cooperated before any of it really started, but he was treated... well worse than a criminal. One tazer hit is enough. Although saying that, the USA's treatment of criminals is barely civilized anyway.
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*Matt, with a very awake little man on his shoulder.*
Amazing, isn't it? Whether something is a big deal or not to someone all depends on how much they can relate to it.
The poor kid was tasered half a dozen times by cops for no good reason. I think that's a pretty big deal.
@WiseKran: You're completely out to lunch.
He showed no respect for authority, and refused to comply with their orders. he got the tazer, he then continued to be obstinate, and not follow orders, he got tazered again.
They asked him to leave, and they tasered him on his way out. They told him to stand up, but he couldn't because he had just been tasered. He did everything he could to comply with them.
IMHO it was a F'ed up situation from the start, however once Mr. Tabatabainejad was in cuffs there was no need whatsoever to tase him again and again. He was endagering no one, he was not trying to encite a riot as many have proclaimed. Passive-Agressive protest are no reason for tasing, there were enough officers there to just pick him up and remove him from the building and put him in one of the four cruisers outside.
His "resistance" was entirely passive, not passive-aggressive. There was never a need to taser him.
It doesn't help that they tasered him for not standing up, which was impossible since he had just been tasered. You can't stand up after you're tasered, it's physically impossible.
The threatening of other students asking for badge numbers and names was also a big NO-NO. An officer cannot threaten violence for a request for identification, a warning of arrest would have been more appropriate to the situation.
It's not just a no-no, it's illegal.
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On the mentality of police:
There are two types of people that want to be police. Type A are the people that actually want to help make the world a better place. Yes, they can mess up just as much as the rest of us, and sometimes do. In the heat of the moment, everyone has rash and unintelligent reactions.
Now for the type B people. Bullies, pure and simple. They join the force for the power trip by way of forcing others to 'respect' them. They are often not as intelligent as others, and don't really care about what others think. They are the police, hear them roar. If you do not show them the 'respect' that they 'deserve', you become public enemy number one. They will go out of their way to show you that they are top dog.
I believe this incident was due to type B police, or possibly just one. But once that one B person started going over the line, group "protect your own" mentality took over, and the others were forced to follow. It is an unwritten police code that you back each other up in public no matter what, even if wrong.
Respect is earned, not taken. Just because you have a badge, and 'think' the law is on your side, it does not give you the 'right' of respect. You would be surprised to know how many cops out there -don't- know the laws, and just go by what they -think- the laws should be. As such, they do not inspire respect, but an emotion that looks similar from the outside. Fear.
If that guy had a heart condition, or even a pacemaker, he would likely be dead right now. Is 'respect' worth that price?
This is why I do not trust the police. I also thing Wisekran would make a great type B. There is no law against insulting the police (that I know of), as long as it is your opinion. Come to my place, Mr. 'Wise' and let me taze you, or stab you in the foot for reasons you do not think are called for, and lets see how many obscenities you can bite back.
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the USA's treatment of criminals is barely civilized anyway.
This is clearly the chop logic of a left wing liberal.
I suppose we should pamper our criminals...
Don't you know that in other countries that have more strict law systems, the crime rate is substantially lower?
In the US, if you key someones car, you go to court, pay a fine.
How it should be: Key someones car, get caned in public, if you steal then they remove your hand.
If justice was like that, there would be no crime.
Now im not saying we have to be that extreme, But im saying that things are getting soft these days. Theres no room for people like that student who think they are even with the law. And its certainly rediculous to blame the police for doing their job, however heavy handed it may seem.
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An eye for an eye...
makes the whole world go blind.
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WiseKran, that's what the terrorists do. If we were to do that we'd be no better than them. Not to mention that most other civilized countries in the world have a substantially lower per-capita prison population. Why? Because their inmates usually don't boomerang back. Chop liberal logic? Hardly; I call it caring pragmatic realism.
"You screwed up, time to beat the living ___ out of you!" is not conducive to improving behavior. I breeds contempt, hatred, fear. It's useless and below useless. Only those who are impossible to reform should be given the harshest of treatments. ...and don't forget the number of innocents. I'm sure you have some enemies that would love to see you without a hand.
Typical Right-Wing hatred BS. Independent centrism is the only reasonable path. Labeling your opponents' ideas is actually a mental protection mechanism to keep you from changing your opinion.
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If that guy had a heart condition, or even a pacemaker, he would likely be dead right now. Is 'respect' worth that price?
I think it's possible that the student had autism. That would explain why being touched was such a big deal.
This is why I do not trust the police. I also thing Wisekran would make a great type B. There is no law against insulting the police (that I know of), as long as it is your opinion. Come to my place, Mr. 'Wise' and let me taze you, or stab you in the foot for reasons you do not think are called for, and lets see how many obscenities you can bite back.
I think you're being a bit harsh, but I find it hard to disagree. I want to keep an open mind and say that WiseKran might not really mean what he said - it's likely he was just trying to provoke a reaction out of anyone who has a heart.
@WiseKran: Your position is baseless because no crimes were ever committed - except by the police officers.
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I went off subject.
But here is my bottom line.
My honest opinion on this subject is this:
The video does not make clear the events leading up to the tazering, But It is assumed that the student was giving the police a hard time. He didn't comply with their demands, he got tazered.
I believe the first time he got hit with it, it was warranted. The rest was a a bit out of control, But I find the student to be more wrong, because of that fact that he made a big deal about leaving the library because he Didn't have his ID.
No, it was not necessary to use the stun gun on him that many times, But neither was it necessary for the Student to be so obstinate. I find both parties to be wrong, but the Police are the lesser of two evils to me
I am not a "Type B" person in life, but I do have a strong respect for the law, and the government. I am a republican, and I would say I have an almost militaristic sense of justice. I don't want to see criminals, or in this case, this student punished or brutalized merely to put myself on top. But I would deal with cases like this harshly, because he obviously has no respect for rules, or authority.
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The video does not make clear the events leading up to the tazering, But It is assumed that the student was giving the police a hard time. He didn't comply with their demands, he got tazered.
The police were only called in much later on. This is the picture, the order of events, that I have from all the reading I've done:
- the student was asked for his ID card "at random" by rentacops
- the student refused, saying that he was the victim of ethnic profiling
- the rentacops called in the real cops
- the student agreed to leave
- on his way out, the student was tasered by the cops
I believe the first time he got hit with it, it was warranted. The rest was a a bit out of control, But I find the student to be more wrong, because of that fact that he made a big deal about leaving the library because he Didn't have his ID.
No, my friend. It's the cops who made a big deal about him not having his ID. Also, he was not obstinate. He agreed to leave. He didn't resist them. He did everything they asked. He was compliant but they beat his rear end anyway. They could have killed him.
The police are the greater evil because I hold them to a higher standard. They have been put into a position of authority and power, and therefore we should set higher expectations for them. There will always be idiots on the street, but cops are employed by the government to ensure our safety. Therefore they are most definately the greater of the two evils.
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It isn't as simple as, he was tazered as he was walking out.
He was yelling for the cops to get their hands off of him, he obviously wanted to leave without them as an escort. If he didn't continually shout "Don't touch me!" he would have left uninhibited.
But the rest of what you said does make sense, besides the fact that there is more to the students opposition than you reveal.
He agreed to leave. He didn't resist them.
He refused to let the police touch him, as they were probably going to walk him out of the library.
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It seems to me that touching someone without their permission is technically assault. Actually, calling someone a big fat poopy-head is also technically assault. Now the police have the right to apprehend people when neccessary but if the student was complying with the order to leave then there was no need. The police are supposed to use discretion in the application of force and it appears they did not in this case.
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It isn't as simple as, he was tazered as he was walking out.
He was yelling for the cops to get their hands off of him, he obviously wanted to leave without them as an escort. If he didn't continually shout "Don't touch me!" he would have left uninhibited.
Manhandling someone is not escorting them. Even then, there's no reason for a police officer to grab/assault someone unless their intent is to subdue that person. The cop was out of line from the start. Plus, it's possible that the student's "medical condition" made being touched a big deal.
But the rest of what you said does make sense, besides the fact that there is more to the students opposition than you reveal.
The fact? Let's hear some examples. He claimed he was the victim of racial profiling, then he agreed to leave. He was assaulted as he left.
He agreed to leave. He didn't resist them.
He refused to let the police touch him, as they were probably going to walk him out of the library.
You're so full of it.
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You're so full of it.
How true. Then again, who isn't a little full of themselves? Certainly neither of us
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You're so full of it.
How true. Then again, who isn't a little full of themselves? Certainly neither of us
Dumb question: Are you WiseKran under a different moniker?
By "full of it", I mean that the statements WiseKran made are self-evidently ludacris and they have been shown to be ludacris already by early posts within this thread.
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Wow. Zanzi, and you almost had me agreeing there, till you went off the deep end and made everything personal.
For the record, I agree with the idea that the police should be held to a higher standard because they have more authority. I'm not saying that the student acted right, but the police didn't handle it right, either.
I'm still of the opinion, though, that this doesn't warrant any more shock than the hundreds of similar things going on all over the world any day. I'm not any more apalled at it than I am at what happens in other countries, so don't expect me to jump up and down and shout.
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the USA's treatment of criminals is barely civilized anyway.
This is clearly the chop logic of a left wing liberal.
I suppose we should pamper our criminals...
Not at all, I'm quite conservative. But compared to countries.. let's say in the EU, the USA is quite uncivilized (death penalty for one thing). Also the fact that most people convicted in the USA are treated as guilty until proven innocent too. In this case, tough action is one thing, abuse is another, and this is definitely abuse. You don't 'kick ass' to get respect when you're the police. You should do the minimum physical damage possible. If you want the kind of action you described, then you'd have loved living in Nazi Germany. Modern day Iran is like that actually.
I'm still of the opinion, though, that this doesn't warrant any more shock than the hundreds of similar things going on all over the world any day. I'm not any more apalled at it than I am at what happens in other countries, so don't expect me to jump up and down and shout.
Agreed.
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Well Im not going to go any further.
To do so would require research on the matter, and I dont care to spend the time. Not to mention what I bring to the table would most likely be dissected and used against me.
You know where I stand on the issue, and you most likely wont be able to change my mind. :)
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Dumb question: Are you WiseKran under a different moniker?
Yes, that is a dumb question, the answer of course being no.
Well Im not going to go any further.
To do so would require research on the matter, and I dont care to spend the time. Not to mention what I bring to the table would most likely be dissected and used against me.
You know where I stand on the issue, and you most likely wont be able to change my mind. :)
Yes, it seems that both of you are that way. Too much similarity with just the right wrong differences can cause seemingly endless arguments. I know, I am often in such arguments with one RL person I know and despise.
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"I'm not going to change my opinion and you can't make me."
Heh, but it probably is a wise time to get out of the thread, as he is apparently outnumbered by other competent opponents.
Just remember: sometimes "suck it up" and "respect authority" just don't cut it.
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"I'm not going to change my opinion and you can't make me."
Heh, but it probably is a wise time to get out of the thread, as he is apparently outnumbered by other competent opponents.
Just remember: sometimes "suck it up" and "respect authority" just don't cut it.
I said "Most likely" wont be able to change my mind. there is a difference.
If something strikes me, Ill let you know.
But now is my time to step out, because its WiseKran vs. the rest of the Forum here. A Wise Kran knows when hes beat.
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I'm still of the opinion, though, that this doesn't warrant any more shock than the hundreds of similar things going on all over the world any day. I'm not any more apalled at it than I am at what happens in other countries, so don't expect me to jump up and down and shout.
Thats just it Phinehas, the majority of people have become desencetized (sp) and things of this nature go on without any public apeal for an investigation. The only reason this case has got the attension it has is because of the location, a multimedea savy population. Within hours this was spread around the web, gaining world wide attention.
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Exactly, which is why I'm not going to get more hyped up about it just because the people who felt it the most can use the internet. I'm not happy about it, but I'm much more concerned about many other things happening all over the world that don't get as much attention.
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Hehe, Datruth with that "omfglookiie!"-attitude you should work for The Sun or some equally bad gossip rag...
The info in the video is not even close to being complete, so meh.
A few people screwed up, someone got hurt, big deal. Yeah great it was the "authorities" but they make mistakes too, after all they are human. There were witnesses, there were people who know the whole story, the misbehaving people will most likely be dealt with accordingly, end of the drama.
Posting this reply was probably already too much time invested into the matter, for someone who wasn't involved directly.
I'm not saying it's a bad thing if people care, but opening the posting and getting slapped around by bold übersized caps... ah well that's just me maybe ;)
PS: WiseKran, your ideals and ideas of proper "punishment" are most shocking. Ruling by fear? No-no. Far too often people who share your opinion forget that those who actually cut people's hands off can be wrong, or corrupted. End of "paradise"...
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Wow. Zanzi, and you almost had me agreeing there, till you went off the deep end and made everything personal.
For the record, I agree with the idea that the police should be held to a higher standard because they have more authority. I'm not saying that the student acted right, but the police didn't handle it right, either.
I'm still of the opinion, though, that this doesn't warrant any more shock than the hundreds of similar things going on all over the world any day. I'm not any more apalled at it than I am at what happens in other countries, so don't expect me to jump up and down and shout.
I don't believe that I've made things personal, nor have I gone "off the deep end". And yes, bad things are happening in other parts of the world.
@Uyaem: This person was tasered. Tasered. They could have killed him. They tasered him over and over and over again, even though he was doing nothing wrong. It was cruel. It was wrong.
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Exactly, which is why I'm not going to get more hyped up about it just because the people who felt it the most can use the internet. I'm not happy about it, but I'm much more concerned about many other things happening all over the world that don't get as much attention.
Sorry phin to have to quote you like this.... but i thought it was important.
I agree that people have it worse outside this country.
But there's little we can do about it.
In this case, you have more power to change everything, Just imagine if you emailed everyone involed and told them they were wrong.
Just imagine that, and now imagine telling as many people as you can about this subject.
Change would occur, not overnight, but you need to make an impact.
Did you call your representative Phin? Did you call your senator? Write them? Get involved?
No? Then you've done a disservice to Your Brethren in America(with the assumption you live in America lol).
And yes, Don't Mess with People in SOCAL, We know how to call and use internet.
And we care when one of our own get's Abused.
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Saying..."ohh worse things happen in the world" doesn't cut it.
This happened in the Free world, The U.S, a so called model for Democracy and Freedom.
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WiseKran:
For the record, The kid didn't do anything illegal.
He wasn't even guilty of Resisting Arrest, as per the statement of a Judge.
HE cannot be tasered, for telling a cop to Get his hands off him.
People have been getting kicked out of libraries for years, now if you have a bad mouth, you get TAZERED!
That's illegal, but if you want that to be legalized, go lobby for it or something!
For the record, the cop grabbed his Shoulder, SO HE WASN'T ESCORTING HIM OUT!
THe student slid the cops hand off, said get off me, another cop grabbed his other shoulder, and Stunned him.
None of the Stuns were warranted.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What are the cops guilty of:
Police Brutality
Key word there is "brute", they acted just like them.
~~Datruth
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Just imagine if you emailed everyone involed and told them they were wrong.
While I seriously and majorly sympathize with the kid in this situation, I don't think that emailing everyone involved and telling them that they are wrong does anything. Email you don't want to listen to = spam = deletion. It's that easy, and it doesn't change a damn thing.
Did you call your representative Phin? Did you call your senator? Write them? Get involved?
No? Then you've done a disservice to Your Brethren in America(with the assumption you live in America lol).
I don't think that just because some people don't involve themselves in some "political issues" means that they are doing a disservice to "Brethren in America," to be honest. That statement feels blown up. Yeah, it would be totally awesome if everyone was involved in everything and worked as one group towards a goal, but that just doesn't happen and there can be perfectly legitimate reasons. So before saying something like that, remember that not everyone is a diehard like you are and they have their rights to be ;)
And yes, Don't Mess with People in SOCAL, We know how to call and use internet.
And we care when one of our own get's Abused.
I think people in every state or city care when one of their own gets abused. There's nothing special about southern California.
This happened in the Free world, The U.S, a so called model for Democracy and Freedom.
I have a fear you might get disillusioned pretty quick ;) Utter crap has been going on in our country for generations, and is going on still as we speak. You also don't hear about every murder that gets committed, every rape that someone suffers, etc. More laws or stronger laws don't always prevent these things. People don't always follow laws, and there will never be any utopia in the world.
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I have a fear you might get disillusioned pretty quick ;) Utter crap has been going on in our country for generations, and is going on still as we speak. You also don't hear about every murder that gets committed, every rape that someone suffers, etc. More laws or stronger laws don't always prevent these things. People don't always follow laws, and there will never be any utopia in the world.
So yea, i see your point, never say that America is better off than any another country. ::|
This country, is better off than the rest, and when we think we've solved something (police brutality), sometimes it comes back and bites us in the butt.
You can't tell me you weren't surprised to hear a Student at UCLA got tasered by cops for no good reason.
That's shocking, You can't glaze that up, especially by saying, "bad things happen in America".
While I seriously and majorly sympathize with the kid in this situation, I don't think that emailing everyone involved and telling them that they are wrong does anything. Email you don't want to listen to = spam = deletion. It's that easy, and it doesn't change a damn thing.
As for my Email point, true probably won't solve anything, it shows intent though, imagine if no one emailed.
If no one emailed, then he wouldn't get a real sense of response. Whereas if everyone emailed, he'd have a flooded inbox.
That sends a message karyuu. :thumbup:
"I don't think that just because some people don't involve themselves in some "political issues" means that they are doing a disservice to "Brethren in America," to be honest. That statement feels blown up. Yeah, it would be totally awesome if everyone was involved in everything and worked as one group towards a goal, but that just doesn't happen and there can be perfectly legitimate reasons. So before saying something like that, remember that not everyone is a diehard like you are and they have their rights to be"
Yea i know what you mean, i was just urging Phin to go and do something about this.
He doesn't have to, and no one will hold him to it if he doesn't.
I hope it didn't seem like i was attacking his patriotism, for not helping, that wasn't my aim, it seemed as if you read it that way though.
Sorry if it was poorly phrased.
"I think people in every state or city care when one of their own gets abused. There's nothing special about southern California."
Uhh no..... If this had happened in Rural Alabama, or Arkansas, or something... .we probably would never hear about.
Everyone i've spoken with Agrees that because it was in Southern California, It created a HUGE UPROAR!
On Youtube, the Video became the second Most watched, Most Discussed, and top Favorited yesterday.
There was a huge Outcry, although you wouldn't know it by watching the T.V.
Socal is very Techno savy, and this situation getting popular isn't a Coincidence.
~~Datruth
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So yea, i see your point, never say that America is better off than any another country. ::|
Not at all - I was trying to say that America is not exempt from having brutalities. This country is not a sparkly, clean place. Definitely when comparing to some other places stark differences crop up, but there are other countries that outdo us by far in certain respects.
This country, is better off than the rest, and when we think we've solved something (police brutality), sometimes it comes back and bites us in the butt.
I don't think you can "solve" issues like that. As long as man is involved, and man's volatile nature, unpredictabilities abound. You can slap laws onto something, as I said, but people can always break them. You can never completely solve any problem when violence is the focal point.
You can't tell me you weren't surprised to hear a Student at UCLA got tasered by cops for no good reason.
That's shocking, You can't glaze that up, especially by saying, "bad things happen in America".
As Laragorn mentioned above, people become desensitized - the only reason I'm feeling something more about this happening in UCLA than some university in Arkansas is because I had a cousin graduate from there, so it has personal connections. I've also been to UCLA multiple times myself. It's hard to imagine something like that happening in a place you know, but beyond that - unfortunately there is no other shock. People abuse powers everywhere. Sometimes it happens here, sometimes there. The only sad thing is that it happens at all. Not where it happens.
Uhh no..... If this had happened in Rural Alabama, or Arkansas, or something... .we probably would never hear about.
Everyone i've spoken with Agrees that because it was in Southern California, It created a HUGE UPROAR!
On Youtube, the Video became the second Most watched, Most Discussed, and top Favorited yesterday.
There was a huge Outcry, although you wouldn't know it by watching the T.V.
That's not what I was talking about though. I said that people in every state care when someone from around their parts gets abused somehow. Yes California is a progressive state in many ways, but I was replying to your "SOCAL spirit" thing more than anything else.
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ohh sorry for misunderstanding you on that last point karyuu.
You're right, people care in other states as well.
I think the reason why we disagree in most of these things is because I think Humans are born Good and are Good in general.
It is other Humans that are bad influences on us, that corrupts us.
I think you feel as if man is born evil. (correct me if i'm wrong)
I think a utopia is possible, all that's needed is for man to set a good example for each other.
It may sound strange, but if people stop the curroption they see around them, disaproove of the evil things, then eventually we will have a GReat world where problems would be very slim in number.
~~Datruth
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I think you feel as if man is born evil. (correct me if i'm wrong)
I don't believe in "good and evil," and certainly not in such predestinations. What I believe in has been proven by our race since the dawn of our time - that we are violent and beautiful, and that we destroy as much as we create. You cannot eliminate all forms of violence - that is unnatural - although you can channel it. You are indeed correct when you say that we are molded by those around us, however:
I think a utopia is possible, all that's needed is for man to set a good example for each other.
To create a utopia you have to eliminate certain elements that make us human in the first place. A world without conflict is a world without growth. Every great writer and storyteller that has ever created a utopia has shared with us its ultimate downfall - its very lifelessness and inhumanity. Although I find it a very interesting subject, I think I'm pulling this to a tangent so I'll stop right now :)
Returning to the video: I couldn't watch the entire thing. Maybe it's just a matter of my own state of mind lately, but I was feeling sick after a couple of minutes. With so many witnesses however (and UCLA is certainly not lacking in a strong student body) I'm sure that something will be done about this incident, in one form of another.
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Exactly, which is why I'm not going to get more hyped up about it just because the people who felt it the most can use the internet. I'm not happy about it, but I'm much more concerned about many other things happening all over the world that don't get as much attention.
Sorry phin to have to quote you like this.... but i thought it was important.
I agree that people have it worse outside this country.
But there's little we can do about it.
I disagree. My parents are missionaries, and I was one, too. I'm not arguing that you should go be a missionary, because I'm assuming you're not a Christian, so that would be pointless. I'm saying we can do heaps. We're not trying because we don't really care.
In this case, you have more power to change everything, Just imagine if you emailed everyone involed and told them they were wrong.
Just imagine that, and now imagine telling as many people as you can about this subject.
Change would occur, not overnight, but you need to make an impact.
Did you call your representative Phin? Did you call your senator? Write them? Get involved?
No? Then you've done a disservice to Your Brethren in America(with the assumption you live in America lol).
Why? Because it upset you, so I should do something about it? I was NOT shocked when I read this, for the record. That doesn't mean I'm ok with it or don't care, but I'm not going to call my senator and say, "No more bad policemen!" Also for the record, I moved back to the States like two months ago and don't even know who my senator is. Does that make me less of an American? I think not.
And yes, Don't Mess with People in SOCAL, We know how to call and use internet.
And we care when one of our own get's Abused.
What was that, a "look out, here we come"? You think you rule because you can hype over something? Let me ask you, when was the last time you cared about something that wasn't made a huge deal of? When was the last time you helped a homeless person, went out of your way to do something extra nice for someone in need? Even if you're able to say something like "three hours ago", my point still stands. Yelling around on the net is not the way to help. Get out there and make a difference in your daily life.
Saying..."ohh worse things happen in the world" doesn't cut it.
This happened in the Free world, The U.S, a so called model for Democracy and Freedom.
So, you're saying that just because it happened in America it should matter more? I'm not following. I lived in Ukraine for most of my life, and although I'm as patriotic as anyone out there, I care just as much about the poor Ukrainian kid who gets the crap beaten out of him in an alleyway as I do for this guy who got tazed by an officer.
I think a utopia is possible, all that's needed is for man to set a good example for each other.
It may sound strange, but if people stop the curroption they see around them, disaproove of the evil things, then eventually we will have a GReat world where problems would be very slim in number.
~~Datruth
I believe in God. So far humanity's been doing a pretty miserable job.
And yes, I'm sorry for probably getting this thread locked by turning it "religious". My views aren't separate for my faith and I apologize to no one for that.
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Phinehas, I can't believe you. You're more concerned with nitpicking at things no one cares about than you're concerned with what actually happened.
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I don't mind the police excercising their authority, it's what they are paid to do... and this student, when challenged, SHOULD have just left the library.
That said though... I believe tasering someone who is handcuffed is tantamount to torture.
If they have already restrained him and have 4+ burly police officers surrounding him... he poses little threat and could easily be dragged off the premises and taken to the nearest police cell and charged for offenses related to the breach of the peace.
Tasers aren't for keeping people that are already restrained quiet... they are for self-defense. ... aren't they?
If the police example is anything to go on... we should all be allowed to electrocute noisy people too!!!
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i. Police aren't paid to exercise their authority. They're paid to protect us.
ii. The cops attacked the student as the student was leaving the library. The student was doing what he was told to. He was not challening the cops.
iii. Not only did they taser him after he was cuffed, but they tasered him for not standing up when he was on the ground and unable to stand due to be tasered.
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To phinny:
Woah.... ::| , Calm down there bro.
~~~~~~~~~
To Drah:
I agree on all points, except when you said he should have just left.
He was trying to leave when an officer grabbed the guys shoulder.
~~~~~~~~~~~
To everyone:
Good's Demise
Those who allow evil to fluster, bring about their own demise.
To see evil is to try and abstain from it.
And to witness evil in another, is to propogate it's end to that person.
If all else fails, keep hope.
But never let evil go because it's a regular occurance.
To witness it regularly is to ask for it's removal regularly.
And should you become numb to this cause.
Your children shall become numb to it too.
And thus you shackle good with the chain of Ignorance
To witness the pain in others regularly and compare which is worse
And to turn a blind eye on your brother because they are in less pain than those thousands of miles away
Will one day leave your children stranded without help
For the eyes of many, will only stand to those thousands of miles away
Would you watch your mother squirm in pain while she is beaten and raped
And wonder what has happened to those thousands of miles away
Would you watch your brother broken and crippled, by the gang who was his family
And wonder what has happened to those thousands of miles away?
No, you wouldn't.
But i have news for you
This man is your brother, and at one time you and him shared a mother
And leaving him stranded is what will ultimately cause Good's demise
And if those who are suffering thousands of miles away band together
Then together we will cause Good to Arise.
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For crying out loud he was a university student in a library doing an assignment. One uni student vs 4 cops. What's he going to do pull out a pen and stab somebody? The simple fact of the matter is that the police there simply exerted far too much force than was necessary and should be held to account. I was apalled by the whole situation. Even more concerning is the fact that details were left out in the report, althought i'm not all together surprised by that.
The underlying problem here is the Taser and its use and police mentality. under the moon summed up the later quite nicely with the two types of cops idea. The taser is a cruel idea, it's designed to incapacitate. atleast read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taser#Taser). It's not the human equivalent of a cattle prod to encourage people to comply, it's a device to incapacitate! for self-defense etc. Was the student attacking or threatening the police or did he present as a possible threat to anyone there? What we have are police officers running around using weapons without any idea of what they are capable of. As has been repeatedly pointed out the student was handcuffed. And I would have thought that the whole idea of escorting someone off the premises is that they aren't doing it at their own will (i.e. standing up and walking out holding hands with the cops) but being removed from the premises for security reasons (frog marched).
I would have thought maintaining peace and order were the gaols of the police force - not tasering kids and disrupting some 200 odd students in a building and causing a crowd to gather and start a mini protest.
@ anyone who says the kid got what he diserved: would you be alright to be handcuffed and tasered about half a dozen times for not jumping to the immediate demands of a policeman? Imagine this; you get pulled over for a random alcohol breath test and are also asked to present your license and you realise that you forgot your wallet/purse at home, and you receive that treatement for being too slow or grumpy getting out of the car if the police asks you to. Not a pretty picture for a civilized and developed world.
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What i love about this situation is there are actually people who say the student was at fault :o
It really shows you how some people think, turning a guy like that whose being electricuted to crisp, into the evil guy.
That's how we got into Iraq though, Propoganda, False media Propaganda that convinced us Iraq's leader was some kind of a threat to our security and we needed to kill his regime.
Now the majority consensus is we are less safe because of that war.
IF anyone hasn't witnessed the Media bias NOW IS THE TIME to see it.
The only channel i've seen to discuss this topic is MSNBC, on keith olbermans show.
By discuss... i mean more than a minute.
And on top of all this, that poor guy is being blamed by the UCPD as an instigator of violence.
The media is a powerfull thing my friends, witness its power now.
I just hope Truth wins in the end.
~~Datruth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
P.s: After watching the video numerous times, i suggest everyone tune into 3:50 seconds into the video.
At this point you can't see the man, he's fallen down the stairs, on the floor a few feet away, and while he's handcuffed on the floor they continue to taze him.
He is screaming very loud, loud enough for you to hear him over the Crowd.
Witnesses have all said atleast 2 tazes took place while he was in the Foyer, on the ground, after having fallen from the stairs.
This is also confirmed by the Media and police.
(4: 12 seconds in, and 4:30 seconds into the video)
I've read up to 4 tazes took place there. (possibly because an officer was enraged after what happened).
I've found an extra one at (4: 45) seconds in.
At (5: 20) seconds in, the officers are consoling the man, possibly because he is visibly having trouble breathing.
(6: 35) Cop says to a protestor, back over there or you're gonna get Tazed too. (WTF is that, That cop should be socked in the face)
Review these parts and get back to me on what you think.
And i think we all agree, at this point, Even an Idiot would know tazing is unncecessary.
I bet when they talk to the officers about this, they'll just say :oops:
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The police is paid to protect us from who? From aliens? Wasn't that "from other people"? And for god's sake don't turn this discussion in a good vs evil one, or simply one in which you try to define one of those words. They're both relative. Live with that.
As for that damn video, uhm, I think someone just got shot somewhere on Earth. Does that matter? Oh, no... why? Because he's not your neighbour Dath?
I really hope you've understood my ironies.
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@Zanzibar..
I heard about (iii) but not the other two... that's even worse than I thought!!
I didn't know the guy was already leaving the library at the time.
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I completely understand those of you who do not think this is a 'big deal’; there are more inhuman things done everyday all over the world.
This is a situation where people from all over the world can stand up and show this type of authority is not going to be tolerated.
If people continue to just shake their head and then click the link to the next video, or news article, and think 'that’s too bad, poor guy' then take no action at all; this mentality will only escalate these types of actions. This behavior is what has gotten us where we are today, a desensitized non-active society. The majority of the media, (IMHO) are to blame, with there twisting of facts and misleading interpretations or blatant lies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8c1su1OENE) of what is happening in the world around us.
The outcome of this will not change the world, it will only make more people aware that this is not tolerable, and hopefully encourage others to stand up to injustice. You cannot construct a house in one motion; you need to build it one small piece at a time to create a solid building. Much is the same for situations around the world, in order to make a change we must first start in our own backyard. This is not the only way, but it is a reasonable path to follow.
I forget where I’ve heard or read this but it holds true to this case; “If you take no action when you see an injustice, you are just as much to blame as the party who is in the wrong.”
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Phinehas, I can't believe you. You're more concerned with nitpicking at things no one cares about than you're concerned with what actually happened.
Actually, I think that you guys are doing a good job dissecting what happened and ranting back and forth about it, and I see no reason to add to that. What I'm trying to say is that there are more important things overall, and in each of our personal lives that need more attention than this. Maybe we should try concentrating on them? In fact, I'm guessing you got that, but you just find it easier to rant about this guy than actually do anything about the way you live your life. That puts you in with the other 98% of the world, including me.
@Laragorn:
What if I've taken other opportunities to stand up for right? Does it then make me worse that I don't stand up for this one? We have to choose our battles because we're incapable of fighting all of them. If you guys choose to fight for a guy who got tazered by police unfairly, good for you. I, however, do not choose to fight this one, so don't expect me to.
On a side note, I think having lived outside the U.S. opens your views up a whole lot to what's going on in other places.
@Datruth:
I'm perfectly calm. Once again I need to warn anyone that I don't write in the heat of emotion. You have to admit, though, that what I said puts this thing in perspective.
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Hmmm, maybe back to topic? Instead of making this all about Phinehas. Yes, Phinehas as you stated the obvious, there are problems and situations all over the world that need attention. Now that that was stated, moving on ..... I would like to keep reading about the discussion I was becoming very interested in about this handcuffed student and the police. Some of these points of views are very interesting.
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Hmmm, maybe back to topic? Instead of making this all about Phinehas.
Oh for crying out loud. Was that really necessary? Attracting attention never even entered my mind when I posted here. I won't make the mistake of doing so again, as I have no wish to discuss minor issues with people who fail to see the real issue at hand.
Really, what more is there to discuss? People are basically agreeing that both sides were wrong. Now they're just nitpicking over who was more wrong, even though everybody pretty much agrees that it was the police who were more wrong. Now, if you're going to move on to doing something about it, then good. If you're going to continue to just rant back and forth, then what's the point?
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Hmmm, maybe back to topic? Instead of making this all about Phinehas.
Oh for crying out loud. Was that really necessary? Attracting attention never even entered my mind when I posted here. I won't make the mistake of doing so again, as I have no wish to discuss minor issues with people who fail to see the real issue at hand.
What the hell? I didn't say any of that. I only requested to have the topic go back to it's original purpose and that is people giving there points of views about this situation. I am interested in hearing their points of views and not reading a couple of pages on you defending your point of veiw and have every right to express so. Quit reading so much into everyones posts. It might save you a headache.
[edit] So because you don't think there is more to discuss then we should all just stop?
Maybe people want to talk about it. Maybe people want to debate how it could have been handled differently. Maybe people need to express how they feel about it because they want their voice to be heard about this topic some where. Why is that so much of a problem to you? Let it be and let people discuss. You are NOT the referee. For your information I am interested in the points of views of these people, so feel free to call it ranting or whatever you want but I don't share the same point of view as you and would like to see the discussion continue. If you don't want to be in the spot light then stop putting yourself there. You had valid points but so did everyone else in this thread. Only it is becoming more about your point of veiw than it is everyone else's. That is what I am not interested in and that is what made me post my opinion.
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Here is the link to it: http://youtube.com/watch?v=W3CdNgoC0cE
Watch it before you read ANYTHING!
Unbiased Account on the Situation:
http://www.blakeross.com/2006/11/17/on-the-ucla-tasering/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I Quote:
* UCLA student Mostafa Tabatabainejad was working in the library when a Community Service Officer approached and asked him to show school ID as part of a posted library policy barring unauthorized persons after 11PM. Mostafa did not have his ID and did not leave immediately. It is unclear if he refused to leave and, if so, whether he was belligerent. The CSO contacted the campus police, which have the same authority as municipal cops.
* Multiple campus policemen arrived as Mostafa was apparently exiting the library. One of them put a hand on Mostafa, inciting him to shout angrily.
* An officer Tasered Mostafa using the “drive stun” setting (i.e. via direct contact instead of shooting).
* After placing Mostafa in handcuffs, officers continued to Taser Mostafa multiple times. Mostafa yelled that he was cooperating and that he had a medical condition. Officers ordered him to “stand up” repeatedly, which he did not do.
* At least two dozen students witnessed the event. Multiple students demanded badge numbers from the officers on scene and told them that they were out of line. At least one of the students requesting the information was threatened with the Taser directly.
ALL THIS HAPPEND TUESDAY, of this Week.
At UCLA, of all places, In the United States.
I'm shocked and Appaled.
This was the Most Heinous thing i've ever witnessed.
He was Handcuffed and yet he STILL was tazed....
That is wrong, even by the LAPD's Manual TAZER POLICIES (http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/ucpd/zippdf/2006/Taser_Policies.pdf)
I'm going to This weekends Protest, UCLA is a school i'm planning on attending in 3 years, I won't allow this to happen again.
Amnesty International is looking into this.
~~Datruth
P.s I highly recommend you read the Second link, which has an Eye Witnesses account of what happened.
http://www.blakeross.com/2006/11/17/on-the-ucla-tasering/
most heinus thing you ever saw? ya cuz lapd are known for their polite ways *cough* rodney king *cough* the dude they pulled out a truck and threw a cinderblock at his face *cough*
by now we should all know dont mess with the lapd or any branch even if its campus security, they all get down when it comes to brutality
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i thought the dude in the truck was done by thugs in reaction to King, and not by thuggish police.
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it was a long time ago you may be right, might not, but either way the cops had no right to do it, just like people have no right to assault anyone, the fact of the matter is it happens and when he did not have his card he should have gotten up and left no problem, at least to go get the card, as we all know most teens are smartasses and most police dont tolerate it. now i am not justifying what happend, just that we are all aware that stuff like this happens all the time and we should learn, its not going to change. no matter how many lawsuits, no matter how many new laws, people are cruel and unjust. it comes a time for people to think of possible outcomes wether the outcome is good or bad and measure what could happen to what actions you are doing. and 20 bucks says kid was running his mouth. i know i would have =)
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Hmm. I'm with Drah on this one. Yes, this looks to be abuse from my angle, but it doesn't suprise me. Do NOT read that I think the police were ok and the guy was completely at fault. Something tells me that if he just left, and didn't freak out and start yelling about being touched, than nobody would have been in the position to get abused. Instead he makes a scene and we have this jibba jabba. I have been through almost the exact same thing, and politely requested that I not be phyiscally escorted out (I got the hands on the shoulder as well). After they realized I wasn't going to be making a problem (even though it is difficult to do so from the moment you're cuffed), they were very civil about it. I call it "cause/effect." But some people just want to push buttons to make a point when they feel wronged, and that's my simplified take on this situation. Nobody likes to be screamed at when they are just trying to do their job, regardless of how well one thinks they are doing it.
Thanks buddy, for giving us something to tear into each other about.
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your with drah or me on the subject? =)
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Heheh I just read your post. Seems we three are on our own misfit island ;)
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I think part of the problem is that in the west we fill our kids heads with nonsense like "human rights" and "civil disobedience" and the only problem with these high sounding ideals which are great in theory is that they go directly against human experience. Now I am all for making the world a better place which is what I am really talking about as nonsense but the reality is that those who have power have no intention of letting the least little bit slip from their grasp and for the most part they got it by stepping on people on their way up or inheriting it from someone who did. The lower you are on the totem pole the more you resent those above you and the more you take it out on those below.
This guy probably believed he was doing something noble by (passively?) resisting the abuse when he was just infuriating the abuser. I suspect he was a third or fourth generation American thoroughly steeped in the crap that we teach our children. I am not American but Canada is only 10-20 years behind any societal trend in the States. Sub-cultures tend to stay relatively current because the youth are quicker to try to blend in with their peers.
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Hmmm, maybe back to topic? Instead of making this all about Phinehas.
Oh for crying out loud. Was that really necessary? Attracting attention never even entered my mind when I posted here. I won't make the mistake of doing so again, as I have no wish to discuss minor issues with people who fail to see the real issue at hand.
Yeah, Phinehas is an adult who can defend himself just fine when he wants to.
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Maybe people want to talk about it. Maybe people want to debate how it could have been handled differently. Maybe people need to express how they feel about it because they want their voice to be heard about this topic some where. Why is that so much of a problem to you? Let it be and let people discuss. You are NOT the referee. For your information I am interested in the points of views of these people, so feel free to call it ranting or whatever you want but I don't share the same point of view as you and would like to see the discussion continue. If you don't want to be in the spot light then stop putting yourself there. You had valid points but so did everyone else in this thread. Only it is becoming more about your point of veiw than it is everyone else's. That is what I am not interested in and that is what made me post my opinion.
I dont see how Phinehas is putting himself in the spotlight here, he is merley stating his opinion and resons for it. We the other participents of the discussion are aiming questions to him, he didnt ask for the attention, we put it there. As he states below, we are doing a good job with this discution and feels he need not input any more, he didnt ask us to stop.
(I am not defending Phinehas, as he is capable of that, I am clearing up a misconception)
Actually, I think that you guys are doing a good job dissecting what happened and ranting back and forth about it, and I see no reason to add to that.
@Laragorn:
What if I've taken other opportunities to stand up for right? Does it then make me worse that I don't stand up for this one? We have to choose our battles because we're incapable of fighting all of them. If you guys choose to fight for a guy who got tazered by police unfairly, good for you. I, however, do not choose to fight this one, so don't expect me to.
On a side note, I think having lived outside the U.S. opens your views up a whole lot to what's going on in other places.
I agree we must choose our battles, otherwise we would be fighting day in and day out. Your actions on this matter are ofcource your choice, I have no expectations in the least of your actions. I am sure you have your causes you feel strongly about, as everyone should.
My point is that small issues like this can and do make a differance given the right amount of attention. This can be an example for a change in training and stricter guidlines for Law enforcment officers everywhere.
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i dont believe talking about it and discussing it will change anything, those who agree will simply agree and those who disagree will continue doing what they are doing. its very hard to change someones point of view and even harder when you read it on a screen. i think what happen is just a perfect example of human nature. whether its right or wrong. it will never change, we all need to just think before we act. "ok a cop wants me to leave, i know not all cops are bad but what if this cop is? i could get my ass tazerd if he is bad so i better keep my mouth shut and go get my library card, or i could get smart about it and risk getting hurt". whether its right or wrong that is how people are in the world and it will not change, no matter who says what. we should all take this as a lesson as to who we can run our mouth to. 90 percent of people with power use it as much as they can. once again its human nature.
but to let it known again i dont condone what the officer did...
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i dont believe talking about it and discussing it will change anything, those who agree will simply agree and those who disagree will continue doing what they are doing. its very hard to change someones point of view and even harder when you read it on a screen. i think what happen is just a perfect example of human nature. whether its right or wrong. it will never change, we all need to just think before we act. "ok a cop wants me to leave, i know not all cops are bad but what if this cop is? i could get my ass tazerd if he is bad so i better keep my mouth shut and go get my library card, or i could get smart about it and risk getting hurt". whether its right or wrong that is how people are in the world and it will not change, no matter who says what. we should all take this as a lesson as to who we can run our mouth to. 90 percent of people with power use it as much as they can. once again its human nature.
but to let it known again i dont condone what the officer did...
I don't get what the need is to shove this all away.
This wasn't that long ago, and not even a week has past since this event.
It's fine if you think this discussion is useles... you can leave, if not, stare from a distance.
You can even comment saying how useless it is, we won't mind :sorcerer:
The truth is, Talking about it is essential, spreading the information, getting people to understand the situation at hand.
So far alot of us say there is a great deal of Police Brutality going around, WELL then lets Discuss it, How can we stop these things from happening.
And NO, we can't depend on the media, Right now we have 1 good weapon, Youtube, it is the internet's version of T.V.
Youtube is big enough to fill the Niche of the T.v on the internet, a sort of media for us all.
From now on if anything this Heinous happens again, that should be your first destination.
AND NO, helping others THOUSANDS Of miles away, may be great, because alot of times they are in more need.
But it doesn't help squat Here, and turning a blind eye to the massive pile of evil here hurts us.
It's like having a MILLION DOLLARS, and donating all it away, now you have no money and you're broke you CAN'T help anyone.
The only reason we can help people outside the states is because the states are stable in alot of ways.
IF we don't keep them stable, then we're asking for these events to occur.
WE Need to stop these events from happeneing again, then move onto the rest of the world.
You help a starving neihbor before you help one thousands of miles away.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And ANNAH, stop your obnoxious Bull!
I don't care if you're RPING, your words affect the others in this thread.
The police is(is? lol) paid to protect us from who? From aliens? Wasn't that "from other people"? And for god's sake don't turn this discussion in a good vs evil one, or simply one in which you try to define one of those words. They're both relative. Live with that.
The Police are here to protect us.... from us..... yes.... I get that.... BUT THEY DON'T TAZER PEOPLE FOR LIBRARY FINES!
Oh and about good and evil being relative, i'll make thread on why that can't be soon.
As for that damn video, uhm, I think someone just got shot somewhere on Earth. Does that matter? Oh, no... why? Because he's not your neighbour Dath?
Uhm... It matters, but guess what uhm........ I can't do anything about it cause guess what, Uhmm, HE's 100,000 MILES away.
And uhm, if i see the same thing happen in my neihborhood, than ... uhm.... I'll work to fix it.
Cause uhm....... I can actually do something about it. uhmm...... Do you uhmmmmm understand me? :D
I really hope you've understood my ironies.
Not really? You don't seem to think there is an abuse of power because, as you put it, Police are here to protect us from us. :lol:
And then you say, we shouldn't label this into Good and Evil, Because Obviously we don't agree on that in this thread..... ::| ::| ::|
For the record, that was sarcasm.... and i think we're all in agreement that tazing that man, was evil and wrong.
OH and my names not DATH, AN lol ;)
~~Datruth
Language warning! --Karyuu
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I didnt happen to see anything in the video that looked out of line by the police.. the guy was basically resisting arrest after the police told him over and over again to stand up. And the other people around getting in the face of the cops likely were not making the situation any better.. adding to the already tense situation. But hell I dont know what happened moments before.
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I didnt happen to see anything in the video that looked out of line by the police.. the guy was basically resisting arrest after the police told him over and over again to stand up. And the other people around getting in the face of the cops likely were not making the situation any better.. adding to the already tense situation. But hell I dont know what happened moments before.
Read this, http://www.blakeross.com/2006/11/17/on-the-ucla-tasering/
Than you'll know what happened that led up to that.
And, look at these parts of the video:
(4: 12 seconds in, and 4:30 seconds into the video)3:50
(4: 45)
(5: 20)
(6: 35)
~~~~~~~~~~~~
He had falllen down the stares, and been hurt really bad, then he got tazered 3 additional times, i listed te timing up there.
Once you learn more about this story, you will see how shocking it is.
~~Datruth
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(I am not defending Phinehas, as he is capable of that, I am clearing up a misconception)
Fair enough LARAGORN, but also remember I made this post first. *points down* then Phinehas responded with "oh for crying out loud was that necessary ...... etc." That my friend is drawing attention. If he didn't want it he would have just left my post alone and exercised some self control. He would have continued to answer the questions "aimed" at him. Instead he had to pick at my post. It wasn't even meant to upset him, he choose to have the tone set that way when responding to my post.
[edit] I also want it known I am aware that I to could have left these posts alone and "exercised some self control". Just before that gets picked at. :P I just think it is bad to get into the middle of discussions like Phinehas and I have had in this thread. It only keeps things going, but wanted to explain my point of view to you LARAGORN.
Hmmm, maybe back to topic? Instead of making this all about Phinehas. Yes, Phinehas as you stated the obvious, there are problems and situations all over the world that need attention. Now that that was stated, moving on ..... I would like to keep reading about the discussion I was becoming very interested in about this handcuffed student and the police. Some of these points of views are very interesting.
~>~>~>~>~>~><~<~<~<~<~<~
On topic: There was a man walking around one night down town in Edmonton. He was off of his medication and rambling on about killer bee's and other stuff. He was mentally ill. Witnesses say that he wasn't threatening anyone or causing problems. He was just pacing and talking to himself basically. The police tasered him anyway and he later died in hospital due to a cardiac arrest.
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~>~>~>~>~>~><~<~<~<~<~<~
On topic: There was a man walking around one night down town in Edmonton. He was off of his medication and rambling on about killer bee's and other stuff. He was mentally ill. Witnesses say that he wasn't threatening anyone or causing problems. He was just pacing and talking to himself basically. The police tasered him anyway and he later died in hospital due to a cardiac arrest.
That's a really sad story, and it touches home with me.
I did alot of Volunteer work with the mentally ill, and it changed me as a person.
Right now societies answers to the mentally ill are such, shove them to the side and strip them of their rights.
Or, put them in jail, which is frequently populated with mentally ill patients.
Right now there is only 1 person who is respected in America, The working man, especially the rich working man.
If you don't have a job, you'll have your rights slowly removed, Students, Mentally ill, Elderly.
Not only that, but Women who work have been shown to be Paid less, for the same jobs, so even if Women try to work, Someone always puts them down.
This is why i don't enjoy our Capatalistic System in the U.s, and i would like more socialism.
To help those who cannot help themselves.
Restounds motto is such, it's written on many forums:
Take my hand, i'll lead the way
I promise i won't lead you astray.
IN this same exact way, the government should help those who cannot help themselves.
Rather than do that though, The government says, scratch my back, i scratch yours.
Great story Akaye, it was really sad :'(
~~Datruth
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Fair enough LARAGORN, but also remember I made this post first. *points down* then Phinehas responded with "oh for crying out loud was that necessary ...... etc." That my friend is drawing attention. If he didn't want it he would have just left my post alone and exercised some self control. He would have continued to answer the questions "aimed" at him. Instead he had to pick at my post. It wasn't even meant to upset him, he choose to have the tone set that way when responding to my post.
[edit] I also want it known I am aware that I to could have left these posts alone and "exercised some self control". Just before that gets picked at. :P I just think it is bad to get into the middle of discussions like Phinehas and I have had in this thread. It only keeps things going, but wanted to explain my point of view to you LARAGORN.
~>~>~>~>~>~><~<~<~<~<~<~
On topic: There was a man walking around one night down town in Edmonton. He was off of his medication and rambling on about killer bee's and other stuff. He was mentally ill. Witnesses say that he wasn't threatening anyone or causing problems. He was just pacing and talking to himself basically. The police tasered him anyway and he later died in hospital due to a cardiac arrest.
Points taken and understood.
I remember a few cases in the west that showed complete abuse of power by both local police and the RCMP. There were 3 or 4 cases of Natives being beaten badly then stripped of there close in the midle of winter. In one case this happend, then they dropped him off on the outskirts of town; Only to be found dead the next day.
I relize Akaye, there is a great deal of injustices in our backyard too. Hopefuly with the advancments of technoligies these too can be documented, so they do not continue un-noticed.
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What i don't get about all this, is why no one, out of the 50 odd students, did anything physically.
I mean were they just shocked :o into submission?
What would you have done, if you saw this taken place.
I would have gone up to the man and helped pick him up, regardless of what any cop said, and probably get tazed.
Yea i know,i'm stupid like that, go figure lol.
It wouldn't be an instant reaction, would take a good minute of thinking, but i know i would have done it eventually, after screaming at the cops that is lol.
~~Datruth
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Someone did do something, they filmed it and posted the video. What more did you want them to do, get tasered or worse themselves?
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If the students got physical with the police, then the police could have said "Ha, see? We said that we were protecting ourself from being mobbed, and look! They tried to mob us!". Since no one resisted the police, the police have been left with absolutely no defense for their actions.
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@Datruth:
it is useless to talk about it, it may help you to talk about it, which i guess is not entirely useless, but just because more and more people talk about it doesnt mean things will change, i think its basically just helping you or anyone get thoughts off your chest. if talking about it helped, there would be no more police brutality i mean there was a huge riot in LA over the king beating, and everyone accross the country talked about it and nothing has changed, except for cops keeping it a little more secret. words dont change a person. especially violence. talking only helps to ease the pain. you can start a huge petition in america and get every single person to comment and read and it still wont change the fact that people are violent by nature, especially when angered. im not saying dont talk about it, im just saying dont get this self righteous feeling that talking about it will do something. because it wont. not one bit. there are many examples of that thru history.
Try to avoid quoting an entire huge post in your reply. --Karyuu
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If the students got physical with the police, then the police could have said "Ha, see? We said that we were protecting ourself from being mobbed, and look! They tried to mob us!". Since no one resisted the police, the police have been left with absolutely no defense for their actions.
Great point, maybe it was best no one did anything. Should have re thought that.
@Datruth:
it is useless to talk about it, it may help you to talk about it, which i guess is not entirely useless, but just because more and more people talk about it doesnt mean things will change, i think its basically just helping you or anyone get thoughts off your chest. if talking about it helped, there would be no more police brutality i mean there was a huge riot in LA over the king beating, and everyone accross the country talked about it and nothing has changed, except for cops keeping it a little more secret. words dont change a person. especially violence. talking only helps to ease the pain. you can start a huge petition in america and get every single person to comment and read and it still wont change the fact that people are violent by nature, especially when angered. im not saying dont talk about it, im just saying dont get this self righteous feeling that talking about it will do something. because it wont. not one bit. there are many examples of that thru history.
Try to avoid quoting an entire huge post in your reply. --Karyuu
I guess you've never heard of the french revolution which was spread in Salons, all through france.
Do some studying bro, The power of one voice is stronger than you believe.
And if everyone in America was united in one cause, it would make a difference.
Don't belive me? Look at the 2006 midterm election, highest turnout for Any midterm election EVER, and the Dems Swept Congress.
Oh and incase you're still not bought by the whole idea, I need mention 1 more person.
Ghandi.
~~Datruth
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Honestly, I don't think the DEms swept congress becuase it was a high turn out. I think they picked up seats becuase the Reps, who were in power, screwed up enough so that the nation felt it was tie for a change. USA has two main political groups, so if you don't like one, the general mentality is to vote for the other. As an off tangent, the Dems didn't really sweep it either, many of the elections were close.
And back on topic. Mis use of tazering isn't new. Its been around since they first came out. Case in point: http://www.stellaawards.com/2003.html Read the winner article. Undertrained cops have been around since the system was made. The difference now, to me anyways, is that they are given weapons, and told that it is less than lethal. When you are holding a weapon in your hand that you know is meant to kill, as opposed to one that is "less than lethal", you have quite a different mindset when you think about if you should pull the trigger or not. This doesn't go for just the undertrained ones either. Fact is, it easier for someone to pull a trigger on a taser than it is a real gun, becuase they know with a taser, that it is "less than lethal".
Th real problem, to me, is the mindset used about what a taser is for. Until that mindset changes, misuse of it will continue.
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Actually, I'm not RPing, and I'm pretty serious. Abuse of power? I don't see it. Yeah, police got tazers, why that? To play "hit the walls" with 'em? I have an opinion which may differ of yours, that doesn't mean your is right and mine is wrong though. Read the last phrase again, and you'll understand something about "good" and "evil", about "right" and "wrong". Don't bother making a thread about that, there were way too many.
Sometimes, people are undisciplined, and "think way too high of themselves", putting their pity lives over others, over laws and everything. Why? Because they consider themselves "cool", unique, superior? C'mon. Get real.
Don't tell me that student was an angel himself, 'cause I won't believe you. When you don't know someone, it's better just to shut the hell up.
Consider yourself a rebel and that "police is bad uuu! / let's break the laws they suck!" and add another one on that huge list of names who's helping the world to slowly fall apart. You know, in my opinion we actually "evolve", and that's good.
You said you can do something about it. What can you do? I tell you, nothing. You're still young, and you still have those "I can change the world" thoughts. It's nice to dream though.
Oh, and about that "uhm", it needed to be there to complete my whole sarcasm, yours, it's there from pure stupidity.
Edited for language. --Karyuu
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words have the ability to change certain things in life. but cant change human nature. all those people you mentioned changed something, but didnt change human nature
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Actually, I'm not RPing, and I'm pretty serious. Abuse of power? I don't see it. Yeah, police got tazers, why that? To play "hit the walls" with 'em? I have an opinion which may differ of yours, that doesn't mean your is right and mine is wrong though. Read the last phrase again, and you'll understand something about "good" and "evil", about "right" and "wrong". Don't bother making a thread about that, there were way too many.
That was abuse of Power, according to the TAZER POLICIES! (http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/ucpd/zippdf/2006/Taser_Policies.pdf)
Everyone needs a frame of reference, and that's what they use when deciding it's purpose and use.
AND WHERE on this great green earth do you live annah, Where you think it's O.K to tazer someone who hasn't broken the law.
According to the tazer policy, This is what tazers are for
"6) CRITERIA FOR USE - DRIVE STUN
Authorized personnel may use a Taser in a drive stun capacity, as a pain compliance technique, in the following situations.
A) To eliminate physical resistance from an arrestee in accomplishing an
arrest or physical search.
B) When a skirmish line is deployed and/or for pain compliance against
passive resistors as allowed in UCLA Police Policy § 301.24 (Pain
Compliance Techniques).
C) To stop a dangerous animal."'
NONE OF WHICH HAPPENED, He was under arrest and recieved the Tazer multiple times. IF That's not being bad enough, he said he had a medical condition, and they tazered him anyways.
Tazers are supposed to be used on humans ANNAH, I UNDERSTAND THAT, but that doesn't make every case of Use right:
officers should give additional consideration to the unique circumstances involved prior to applying the
Taser to any of the following individuals: .
A) Pregnant females;
B) Elderly individuals or obvious juveniles;
C) Individuals who are handcuffed or otherwise restrained;
D) Individuals who have been recently sprayed with alcohol based Pepper
Spray or who are otherwise in close proximity to any combustible material;
E) Individuals whose position or activity may result in collateral injury (e.g.
falls from significant heights, operating vehicles, etc.)
He Not only was handcuffed, but he was near the stairs, and the second or thrid Tazing caused him to roll down the flight of stairs and fall down into the Foyer, That's uncompliance with rules C and E.
Sometimes, people are undisciplined, and "think way too high of themselves", putting their pity lives over others, over laws and everything. Why? Because they consider themselves "cool", unique, superior? C'mon. Get real.
Don't tell me that student was an angel himself, 'cause I won't believe you. When you don't know someone, it's better just to shut the fu*k up.
You really sound like a Facist at this moment, "undisciplined, Thinking highly of themselves, putting their lives over others, over laws."
If you believe in Big government, FINE, but you must also believe in INdividual Human Rights.
Where in the world do you live annah? To believe that people leaving a Library need to be tazed? What have you been taught as a child?
Ohh and About the student not being an ANGEL, According to the law HE WAS AN ANGEL, he broke no LAWS, while the officers broke MANY. Sure he makes mistakes, that's ALLOWED!!!!! But Police officers who are held to a higher standard, CANNOT Break the law!
Oh and I'm glad you got to use a Cuss word and not be cencored out, hope karyuu catches that, if not, well we can see what kind of "diction" you use.
Consider yourself a rebel and that "police is bad uuu! / let's break the laws they suck!" and add another one on that huge list of names who's helping the world to slowly fall apart. You know, in my opinion we actually "evolve", and that's good.
Who broke the law here lol, are you feeling o.k? Did you actually read into this event or just babble on?
The student didn't break any laws, so why spread propoganda Annah? Don't propogate that we're against the police, we arn't, we just don't want them Breaking the laws we created, and Abusing their power.
Simple idea huh?
You said you can do something about it. What can you do? I tell you, nothing. You're still young, and you still have those "I can change the world" thoughts. It's nice to dream though.
Lol, if you think one person can't do anything to change the world, you've never heard of Hitler, or Ghandi, or Martin luther king, or Mohammad Ali, or Malcom X, or any of the other figures that have lived in this world.
And obviously you ignored my Source from the French Revolution which was started and run by Salons, regular people like you and me.
There was no t.v back there , and censorship of writing was common. The people working together abolished the government.
You're still young and are of the opinon the Government has the power to make the people do whatever they want.
Truth check: Because of constant revolutions people became discontented with this Ideology, so they revolted against their Monarch Aristocracies.
Clearly though you hold the government over the lives of a single person, sounds kinda like communism to me?
Strip the rights of the individual, for the good of many. It's good in theory, but abuse of power takes over, and you have common day china.
Where do you live annah, we'd all be interested in undertstanding your mindframe a bit better. ;)
Oh, and about that "uhm", it needed to be there to complete my whole sarcasm, yours, it's there from pure stupidity.
No, that's not what i believe.
I think you wrote the uhm thing because you unconciously talk that way.
Let's review the tape shall we ;)
As for that damn video, uhm, I think someone just got shot somewhere on Earth. Does that matter? Oh, no... why? Because he's not your neighbour Dath?
So "uhm" needs to be there for sarcastic purposes? Really? ..... i think you're the first to consider it's mandatory presence in using sarcasm.
We've all done fine without it. ;)
~~Datruth
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You amuse me really.
I do believe in individual human rights. I do believe in individual freedom and the right to choose. I live in Romania (which is a democracy), and from the 1st of January 2007, we'll enter in the European Union, and to give an abstract example it will be mandatory to make a life insurance. I'm against this. Why? Simple, because maybe I consider my life is priceless.
I want to live in a society where you can choose, where you are able to forge your destiny, though, where you must understand some things are needed for control. Because, like I stated in my first post, a world just full of love, will just fall apart. An equilibrium must exist.
I ain't a fascist, nor communist. But I do agree with some ideas communism has brought for example, democracy isn't perfect. And to speak the truth, a perfect society would be one which can have mixed elements from those mentioned above, and even from a monarchy.
Religion was a good form of control, but where did it lead? Think a little.
"Propaganda"? You're the one who wants to make us believe some things, not me. I just said my personal opinion. And stop speaking for other people, speak only for yourself, that will help you in the future, trust me.
Oh, and I hope you did notice that little * . As for the "uhm", in that phrase, yeah it was needed, since you cannot actually see me. You cannot make an impression, and to be sure of it, if I'm not in front of you, if you cannot see my gestures, if you cannot hear me. Think at that phrase, and add some:
:innocent: :whistling:
Huh...
:love:
* edit *
Yeah, words can be more powerful even than a weapon strike. I agree with this, since I did say it a long time ago. But what it matters, is the person who's saying those words. There was never a single person who changed everything. Hitler? He had huge armies, made from many other people. And I can give you hundreds of examples, since I can say I studied history much more than you. Though, it's a vicious circle, you can say those people listened to him, and so on. We're both right, in our own way.
Cheers mate.
;)
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Thanks for the info Annah, and i agree, democracy isn't perfect.
I also have to say i don't like the Idea that Good and evil are Malleable, and changing.
There must be some tangible good and evil, a frame a reference, we can turn to.
If not, one day we will allow rape, and we will allow murder, and we will allow disgrace.
I will have to really make a thread about that someday.
And i do have an apology to make to Annah, i shouldn't have Mentioned the Uhm thing, it was quite mean after reading it over.
He's right that he had to type it, i'm not there so it allowed me to better understand his statement.
And for the record, i hate all forms of fascism.
A government that serves the people with checks in balances is fine with me.
Not america though, we don't have enough checks and balances, i think maybe power should be divided 10 ways.
1) Make laws 2) Explain Laws 3) Enforce laws 4) Check to see if it Matches the Constitution 5) Change salaries 6) Economic Infrustructure
7) house of War and Peace, foreign Affairs 8 ) house of Government reform 9) Socialistic house of wealth to the needy 10) Oversight on all houses.
Something like that would be very tricky.
Also i do not believe in a Representative Government, Currently we have the Technology to host DIRECT ELECTIONS.
I want Pure democracy, No more of this representative Nonsense.
Those are some of my political ideals, and i lean towards taxing the rich for the needy, and social welfare programs.
Favorite President: Franklin D. Roosevelt
I'd love to hear yours annah if you'd like to share.
~~Datruth
Edit:
1) Annah's a He, not a she, so i had to fix all those
2) My 8th type of government turned into this 8), so i need to make a space, to make it like this 8 )
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She's right that she had to type it, i'm not there so it allowed me to better understand her statement.
I'm actually a he, call me Antonio, or Tony if it's more simple hehe. "Annah" exists from my old passion regarding Planescape Torment (it's a pc game if you didn't hear of it, I highly recommand it), I really liked her character, her attitude.
Anyway, favorite president? I hope that will be me someday. And no, I'm not sarcastic.
Oh well, I like the way you turn something little in something big, you remind me of me some time ago.
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She's right that she had to type it, i'm not there so it allowed me to better understand her statement.
I'm actually a he, call me Antonio, or Tony if it's more simple hehe. "Annah" exists from my old passion regarding Planescape Torment (it's a pc game if you didn't hear of it, I highly recommand it), I really liked her character, her attitude.
Anyway, favorite president? I hope that will be me someday. And no, I'm not sarcastic.
Oh well, I like the way you turn something little in something big, you remind me of me some time ago.
lol annah, I think it's big, and i do have the ability to make things Blow up and become huge.
Just check out one of my first long posts and statements in the Thread i made called: "The team and the Community"
But what about your political views? How would you label yourself? And if you could create a government, what would it look like?
~~Datruth
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Favorite President: Franklin D. Roosevelt
~~Datruth
Even your favorite president has taken unjust actions (http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7125684371271207230&q=Olbermann).
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We're humans, it's in our nature to do mistakes, and to also learn from them. But we still do them...
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I hope you all don't mind if i start talking about the taser. To me it seems like the source of the problem here. It's a truly evil weapon in thought and implementation. Our limbs move through contractions of muscles through electric impuleses to them from our nerves and brain. The Taser basically sends an oscillating signal that overloads the nerves. The end result is that the muscle contracts and relaxes much more vigourously than it everywould naturally in an incredibly painful way - not to mention the pontential damage to organs.
Whatever happened to the good old night stick and hand cuffs? There things people can relate to. Big heavy thick black stick equals pain. pointing a taser at someone will threaten them, but it's not exaclty something people can associate as pain - unless they've been tasered before. Do we want a society living in fear of the police force? In Australia where i live the police are meant to be approachable for conflict resolution - we've had out of uniform officers just visit our school to talk to students about issues and other stuff!
I've never been to the states so i have no idea what the culture is like there. The image that eventually gets to me is that america is generally a nice place to be, but if you're not a stereotypical/majority/caucasian you can't expect everything to go smoothly.
I'm just an 18 year old sub-continental male with an afro and i'm not exactly lightly built. I've recieved quite a few odd glances from time to time when i'm about - i assume people either just look at me cause they normally don't see a guy like me floatiing around, or worse they assume i'm trouble :(. I'd love to see a world where people are just accepted for what they are, and if they're not causing any trouble they're just left in peace. Perhaps i'm still filled with kid-ish ideas for peace.
It seems we keep going back to governments and authorities in this thread and ideas about distribution of power and it's (mis)use. I don't think i've seen a single leadership system that works thoroughly. They all have problems.
Not america though, we don't have enough checks and balances, i think maybe power should be divided 10 ways.
1) Make laws 2) Explain Laws 3) Enforce laws 4) Check to see if it Matches the Constitution 5) Change salaries 6) Economic Infrustructure
7) house of War and Peace, foreign Affairs 8 ) house of Government reform 9) Socialistic house of wealth to the needy 10) Oversight on all houses.
Something like that would be very tricky.
Also i do not believe in a Representative Government, Currently we have the Technology to host DIRECT ELECTIONS.
I want Pure democracy, No more of this representative Nonsense.
That's actually a nice idea and I'm very much against this representitive business. It over complicates things and eventually distances the people from the discision making. I'd really like to hear more about these ideas for the ideal government…
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Consider yourself a rebel and that "police is bad uuu! / let's break the laws they suck!" and add another one on that huge list of names who's helping the world to slowly fall apart.
The student who was tasered did not break any laws.
I live in Romania (which is a democracy)
Romania isn't exactly a democracy yet - not in the same sense as other democratic nations. Your nation still has a lot of work to do in terms of fighting authoritarianism and oppression, not to mention religious intolerance. It's headed in that direction though.
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Ha? Get real Zanzibar, the revolution began and ended in '89. Romania IS a democracy. Oppression? That's funny. You talk about Romania like a "new born" country, from the 18th century. We're almost in 2007 for god's sake, we're the typical modern European country.
Religious intolerance? What the hell, don't speak when you don't know certain things.
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Ha? Get real Zanzibar, the revolution began and ended in '89. Romania IS a democracy. Oppression? That's funny. You talk about Romania like a "new born" country, from the 18th century. We're almost in 2007 for god's sake, we're the typical modern European country.
Religious intolerance? What the hell, don't speak when you don't know certain things.
It doesn't work that way. You aren't a fascist state one moment and then a democracy the next. These things take time, and Romania isn't finished yet.
And yes, there is a lot of religious intolerance in Romania, largely due to the Orthodox church and especially directed towards Jews and Gypsies. Do you want to argue about it?
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Actually yeah, I do. Romania is an orthodox country yes, that's the way it was even before the revolution. Jews are very few in here, same like any other communities. And along with gypsies, they're minorities, which don't influence in any way our country, neither political nor religious.
And from '89, Romania had 18 years to "evolve" on the right track, and it did. And like I also said earlier, I do agree with some ideas communism brought, let's not forget WHO was Romania before '89 as well, an important country I have to say, even from the times it was a monarchy.
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fascism
1. A political regime based on strong centralized government, suppressing through violence any criticism or opposition of the regime, and exalting nation, state, or religion above the individual.
2. A system of strong autocracy
Sounds like the Dubya administration to me. You will find many members listed here: Project for the New American Century (http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm) exalting Americas place in the world. Their various gulags (gitmo and secret prisons around the world), their "with us or against us" mentality and their base pandering to the Christian right go to further attest to the aptness of the appellation.
Just goes to show that fascists can be democrats and vigilance is always required. America is a great country, it is just going through some dark times right now most of which can be traced back to the doings of its own. It has a tendency to act as if things happen in a vaccuum and neglect to consider the consequences of history.
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I think what Zanzibar is talking about is, De facto and De Juro, 2 very valid topics here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_jure
Basically, you can make laws and become a Democracy, and still have people hate Gypsies and jews and so forth.
Or you can have laws Against Gypsies, but have the people love them.
In the first case, the Government has reformed itself but the majority of people haven't.
In the second case the People have reformed themselves but the government laws haven't.
I haven't studied the situation so i'm not sure if Zanzibar is right, Or if Annah is right.
What i do know is 100 years after we freed the blacks, we still have racism and still have racial profiling.
So it does take a loong time for these things to change. I'd have to say, The irish are now Fully integrated into America.
And with tazers, i have to agree, The more i've been reading about them, the more they scare me.
Teenagers, it seems, have been getting shot with them many time, as well as the elderly.
In both cases severe mental and physical trauma occurs.
If i had a say, i'd Get rid of all Tasers, they are too dangerous, in my mind.
I've also looked into getting rid of bullets, and replacing them with rubber bullets, so suspects never die.
Rubber bullets, i've read, hurt very much, and should immobalize the assailant very quickly.
~~Datruth
*edit*
fascism
1. A political regime based on strong centralized government, suppressing through violence any criticism or opposition of the regime, and exalting nation, state, or religion above the individual.
2. A system of strong autocracy
Sounds like the Dubya administration to me. You will find many members listed here: Project for the New American Century (http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm) exalting Americas place in the world. Their various gulags (gitmo and secret prisons around the world), their "with us or against us" mentality and their base pandering to the Christian right go to further attest to the aptness of the appellation.
Just goes to show that fascists can be democrats and vigilance is always required. America is a great country, it is just going through some dark times right now most of which can be traced back to the doings of its own. It has a tendency to act as if things happen in a vaccuum and neglect to consider the consequences of history.
Bilbo, the reason we look fascist right now is because We had a fascist Government.
We had people who believed in Fascist Ideas.
They openly admitted it to, but they never used the word, "fascist" they have adopted a new word.
Do a google search on, "NEo Conservatives" or Neocons.
They are America's Fascist, they believe in a STrong Centralized Government that can do what it wishes, regardless of congress or the people.
Neocons are the filthiest things to come to America since the KKK.
~~Datruth
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I haven't studied the situation so i'm not sure if Zanzibar is right, Or if Annah is right.
I live here.
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I haven't studied the situation so i'm not sure if Zanzibar is right, Or if Annah is right.
I live here.
Lol, true, but romania isn't a small country.
(http://www.informest.it/images/mappe/full/romania.jpg)
I live in America, and others sometimes know much more about it than eye.
But i have to admit, If he says he's not being oppressed, Zanz might have to change his statements to oppression only occurs in this area, Or there is no Oppression.
Annah being there allows him to see first hand, the actions of the government.
~~Datruth
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Indeed, Romania is not a small country. But I know 3/4 of it like the back of my hand. I live in Bucharest by the way.
Annah being there allows him to see first hand, the actions of the government.
True.
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It is a little smaller than wyoming, if it was square it would be a little more than 300 miles (488K) on a side. It is 82nd on Wikipedia's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_outlying_territories_by_area) List of countries by area. I'm pretty sure a native would have a good idea of what goes on in it and the surrounding contries too.
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Annah, I'm afraid that you're wrong. Very, very wrong.
It was only three years ago that the Romanian government made a statement denying the Holocaust of Romanian Jews during World War two. Yes, that's right. Only three years ago - June 12, 2003. And you want to tell me that anti-semetism isn't a problem in Romania? The reason why there are so few Jewish people in Romania is the same reason there are so few Jewish people in Poland - they were all murdered.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/06/14/wrom14.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/06/14/ixportal.html
Annah, are you saying that in Romania, Gypsies are not all painted as theives, and that non-Orthodox Christians aren't seen as damned? And what protections do women have from harassment in the workplace? What about the huge problem of the human trafficing of sex slaves from Romania? Is this indicative of a democratic society?
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You're either 12 years old, either you don't know anything about Romania, either retarded. Excuse my language, but yes, I do feel offended when someone speaks about a country he knows nothing.
Gypsies? Thieves? Where the hell do you think we are, in the woods? We have the same criminal activity as any other country which shouts it's based on a democratic system. The non-Orthodox Christians are seen as damned? Again, what the hell do you think Romanians are, a part of a cult or something? Enlarge your horizons kiddo.
About the women which are harassed at work, yeah, maybe there was a case 5 years ago. But look, there's one in the United States as well! Women, men, they're both equally treated, both at work and outside.
As for the human slavery, go to Spain, go to Italy, and after shut up.
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Annah, you ignored the bit about the Romanian Government denying the Romanian Holocaust.
You're either 12 years old, either you don't know anything about Romania, either retarded. Excuse my language, but yes, I do feel offended when someone speaks about a country he knows nothing.
I seem to know a thing or two that you do not.
Gypsies? Thieves? Where the hell do you think we are, in the woods? We have the same criminal activity as any other country which shouts it's based on a democratic system.
I meant that Gypsies are falsely painted as thieves by Romanian society.
About the women which are harassed at work, yeah, maybe there was a case 5 years ago. But look, there's one in the United States as well! Women, men, they're both equally treated, both at work and outside.
I don't think you understood me. What I meant was that women do not have the rights in Romania that they do in the United States - you can get away with things in Romania that you would be sued for if you tried them in the United States.
As for the human slavery, go to Spain, go to Italy, and after shut up.
I don't think I understand you. Are you saying that Spain and Italy are as bad as Romania for human trafficing? Many sex slaves end up in Western Europe and the USA, but they mostly come from places such as Romania, Asia, and parts of Africa - anywhere there are impoverished people.
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I miss Asia. If a college student gets mouthy and uncooperative with the cops there they just beat him and spray him with the fire hose. Gets the point across about the whole "When dealing with the authorities, remember they have the AUTHORITY" thing. Civil Disobedience is still Disobedience. (quote from maddox.xmission.com)
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I miss Asia. If a college student gets mouthy and uncooperative with the cops there they just beat him and spray him with the fire hose.
Or alternatively, they'll run you over with a tank then murder your family.
Gets the point across about the whole "When dealing with the authorities, remember they have the AUTHORITY" thing. Civil Disobedience is still Disobedience. (quote from maddox.xmission.com)
Just like murder is murder and wrong is wrong? And don't pay attention to maddox - he's just an idiot with a keyboard like me. The authorities do NOT have the right to violate your civil rights.
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I miss Asia. If a college student gets mouthy and uncooperative with the cops there they just beat him and spray him with the fire hose. Gets the point across about the whole "When dealing with the authorities, remember they have the AUTHORITY" thing. Civil Disobedience is still Disobedience. (quote from maddox.xmission.com)
In Asia (China mainly) they drag you away and torture you with cigarettes and stun batons. Or they drive over you with tanks. Or they just shoot you. That teaches them mouthy students.
Bleh, zanzibar beat me :| should have read the last page :P
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datruth has great and i mean great ideas on everything, sadly they will never come into play because they dont work in the real world. but thanks for your ideas buddy.
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I smell a bit of cultural elitism running through this thread. While there are major differences between what constitutes appropriate governance and the communist countries care less for the rights of the individual that doesn't mean that western countries have that much to crow about. I am sure there were abuses in the course of the "troubles" in Great Britain, and there was that Spanish student shot in the London metro for wearing a backpack while being late for the train as well as that poor guy in New York hauled off the street and raped with a broom handle, the dead students at Kent state in the sixties that Canadian guy the yanks hustled off to Syria for a year of torture just off the top of my head. There is room for improvement all around. And really is the buyer of the sex slaves any better than the seller?
Shame, shame enough for all.
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I smell a bit of cultural elitism running through this thread. While there are major differences between what constitutes appropriate governance and the communist countries care less for the rights of the individual that doesn't mean that western countries have that much to crow about. I am sure there were abuses in the course of the "troubles" in Great Britain, and there was that Spanish student shot in the London metro for wearing a backpack while being late for the train as well as that poor guy in New York hauled off the street and raped with a broom handle, the dead students at Kent state in the sixties that Canadian guy the yanks hustled off to Syria for a year of torture just off the top of my head. There is room for improvement all around. And really is the buyer of the sex slaves any better than the seller?
Shame, shame enough for all.
A couple of things.
One, you're entirely right. All those things are horrible. The thing is, those things don't make the other things any less bad. Know what I'm trying to say?
Another thing is that a lot of the time, people who put money into the sex industry don't realize that they're recieving services from slaves. It's an issue which most people are very ignorant about.
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Sure enough, all I was saying was "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" has a certain amount of applicability.
Personally I have no use for purchased sex services although I did patronise strip joints more than was good for me when I was younger, so I suppose that is not much different.
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It's been a while since I ran anyone over with a tank.
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You ran someone over in a tank? :o
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It was never about you personally, it was about societies. But, like , whatevar, gag me with a spoon dude.
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datruth has great and i mean great ideas on everything, sadly they will never come into play because they dont work in the real world. but thanks for your ideas buddy.
Lol coneitic, thanks for the support.
My ideas may not seem realistic, but again, they said a united Europe was unrealistic as well, sure enough it happened and it also marked the rise of the Euro.
As for romania.....
All i'm saying is..... i would not want to live in a newly democracised nation. Too many tensions possibly for me to handle.
That said, i'm looking into moving to New zealand one day.
And what's with this gypsies thing, i've read about them, yet till this day i do not know what a gyspie is, what their beliefs are, and what distinguishes them.
And zanzibar, about the whole thing where you're Damned if your not part of the Orthodox church..... It's true here in the U.S too.
Basically everyone says the other religeon is damned. :(
Just look at that old guy who runs the 700 club, he damns everyone.
~~Datruth
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Okay... so people are saying that we should DO something rather than talk about it...
any suggestions on action we can actually take to make any difference there?
I wish there was something I could physically do to make a difference... but even if it was protesting I've got a couple of thousand miles to travel to even do so!!
We all know firing off e-mails will probably fall on death ears.
So what else can we do other than p**s and moan?!
(I'm only asking 'cuz I wish there was more we could do about crap like this!!)
I personally could probably get a hundred or so people to email a certain place with a certain message... but would that make much of difference?? ... none probably :(
That said... I'd happily chuck a couple of hours of my life into any efforts there... because it just wasn't called for.
Are there many sites out there dedicated to fighting against police-brutality specifically?
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Here is one of several groups that fight agains the rise of fascism: http://www.charityadvantage.com/CUAPB/HomePage.asp
Also the ACLU is related with this kind of stuff: http://www.aclu.org/
Anyway, some may not agree. But I think the real function of the police in most countries is to protect the establishment and to fight against any popular uprising that may emerge(See how fast and dedicated the police goes to stop a protest or to aid a rich family compared to how slow they sometimes go to solve a crime that victimized a lower class citizen...)
I think we unnecessarily relies too much on a instituition, that in most cases isn't reliable, called government.
To put too much trust on a bunch of men, with ambitions and usually selfish intentions, to guarantee our safety and dignity isn't a good idea.
U.S. citizens here, you shouldn't fall on that fallacy of "exchanging freedom for safety" with the terrorism as a pretext.
If you let laws like the Patriot Act go, eventually U.S. will have a fascist government.
Remember what Benjamin Franklin said: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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Trading freedoms for Peace, i know exactly what you mean lordraleigh:
(http://www.claybennett.com/images/archivetoons/security.jpg)
And right now America MUST put their trust in the Federal Government when it comes to safety, they control the weapons, money, and people to do that kind of work.
It is a sad thing, Seeing America's government go down the drain.
~~Datruth
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WOW! I finally read it all, I really think that that 'Police Officer' was seriously out of order, it was an abuse of power to act in such a way. Just because they have a badge they think they are not required to act within normally accepted behaviour of an average person.
If a person was being attacked and then defended themself with a TASER, incapacitated the attacker and then continued to stun the person once police had arrived they would surely be arrested themself.
Police, in theory, should be the most respected of people in society, respect is not granted by the awarding of a badge but by being earned by the force as a whole. To gain respect they should show respect to others.
On the point about the dude being unable to stand: If they used the 'Drive Stun' technique it would have been unlikely to cause the loss of movement in the legs, 'just' caused unbelievable agony.
Romania doesnt have the best human rights record since democratisation, but then it doesnt have the worst.
The Gypsies btw are a nomadic race in nearly all countries in europe, the middle east and the americas. I believe they were originally from south/central asia and have been living in europe for about 1000 years.
Well, there ya go, my rather convoluted round up of my opinions on this thread ;)
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latimes (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-taser21nov21,1,6323632.story?coll=la-headlines-california&ctrack=1&cset=true) indicates this is not the first brutality perpetrated by taser wielder, sadly, the tasers were bought because this guy shot a homeless man. Maybe this time he will get fired.
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http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-taser22nov22,1,6782386.story?coll=la-headlines-california&ctrack=1&cset=true
"UCLA's police rules allow officers to use Tasers on suspects engaging in passive resistance, which is what police said 23-year-old senior Mostafa Tabatabainejad was doing last week."
This makes me sick.
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Officers history http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?ID=39047
http://www.dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?ID=25607
http://www.dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?ID=27099
No registration requierd
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UCLA's police rules allow officers to use Tasers on suspects engaging in passive resistance
Yeah, I read that and was pretty dam shocked
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Officers history http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?ID=39047
http://www.dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?ID=25607
http://www.dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?ID=27099
No registration requierd
THE POLICEMAN..... GOT away with it!
......That's sickening
Good thing there are independant investigations going along, hopefully the independant ones will name him for the brutal idiot he was.
~~Datruth
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brutal yes.. idiot..... no i know my self if someone talks smack i put them in check, no matter who it is. whether i have a tazor or my fist, if someone talks smack i show them what the deal is...
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brutal yes.. idiot..... no i know my self if someone talks smack i put them in check, no matter who it is. whether i have a tazor or my fist, if someone talks smack i show them what the deal is...
That's pretty juvenile and more than a bit trashy.
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brutal yes.. idiot..... no i know my self if someone talks smack i put them in check, no matter who it is. whether i have a tazor or my fist, if someone talks smack i show them what the deal is...
That's pretty juvenile and more than a bit trashy.
That's why he's not a Cop.
They'd never accept this kind of attitude. It seems though when they find out one of their policemen has become like this, They cover it up....
All people with that mentality should be fired, regardless what level of law enforcement they are in.
~~Datruth
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brutal yes.. idiot..... no i know my self if someone talks smack i put them in check, no matter who it is. whether i have a tazor or my fist, if someone talks smack i show them what the deal is...
Might I ask what talking smack is? Is that another way of saying talking back? ::| Yes, I am utterly clueless on this one. Never heard of this phrase before, and I am curious.
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http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=talking++smack
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Thanks Xordan. Interesting slang.
Well Coneitic I think if one is to talk "smack" to you that doesn't give you the right to automatically taser someone. That's just obvious anger issue's if you do and lack of self control. Something we don't need on a police force. They are there to serve and protect, not to get into contest's about who's nuts are bigger.
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Might I ask what talking smack is? Is that another way of saying talking back? ::| Yes, I am utterly clueless on this one. Never heard of this phrase before, and I am curious.
"You suck!"
"No, you suck!"
"I'm going to hit you!"
"I'm going to hit you too!"
And so on.
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:whistling:
funny this got mentioned, in my sociology-peace and conflict class., we spent over an hour discussing this :P
i
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:whistling:
funny this got mentioned, in my sociology-peace and conflict class., we spent over an hour discussing this :P
i
A whole hour? What could possibly be controversial about it?
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:whistling:
funny this got mentioned, in my sociology-peace and conflict class., we spent over an hour discussing this :P
i
A whole hour? What could possibly be controversial about it?
1)the fact that the student was a student of color
2)the fact that the police were called in the first place
3)the fact that the kid refused to offer any forms of id and did not comply
4)that the kid had a condition
etc.....we talked about possible reasons and implications of a bunch of different theories and questions
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I agree with zanz, if you don't consider this police brutality, your eyes are basically shut.
That discussion in class probably took place, on one side with the people who knew the situation and were sympathetic towards the kid.
And on the other side, people who didn't know the whole situation and sided with the police.
It's happend like that even on this thread, but once people see how one sided this issue is, the discussion tilts towards the cops and their motives.
~~Datruth
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I'm sympathetic with the student but I'm not saying that he didn't do anything wrong.
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Has anyone been seeing any coverage of this event on the news?
I haven't....
Anyone surprised lol?
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Get over it. Go vote. Make a difference. Nobody who is partaking in civil disobedience should expect to be treated like a child. If he hadn't been tased you wouldn't be complaining and things that you now complain about would still happen just as easily... so again: Get over it.
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I agree with zanz, if you don't consider this police brutality, your eyes are basically shut.
That discussion in class probably took place, on one side with the people who knew the situation and were sympathetic towards the kid.
And on the other side, people who didn't know the whole situation and sided with the police.
It's happend like that even on this thread, but once people see how one sided this issue is, the discussion tilts towards the cops and their motives.
~~Datruth
There is some truth in this, it could be considered police vrutality, but you also dont recognize the police's side on this.
you werent there. therefore you CANT know the whole truth. there are always two sides to every story. There is no way to claim absolute knowledge on who is right or wrong, too many factors need to be taken into consideration. You yourself, in fact, are acting as if blindfolded.
i sitll lvoe you though :flowers:
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Get over it. Go vote. Make a difference. Nobody who is partaking in civil disobedience should expect to be treated like a child. If he hadn't been tased you wouldn't be complaining and things that you now complain about would still happen just as easily... so again: Get over it.
So you're saying that... if he hadn't been tased... then we wouldn't be upset that he was tased... and therefore we should get over it...
You deserve an award of some kind.
@Kalika: You cannot deny that they tasered him after he was already down, that they had the manpower to prevent him from doing any harm, and they tasered him repeatedly anyway. You also can't deny that they told him to get up right after he was tasered, and they then tasered him for not following instructions.
Well, maybe you can deny it, but I cannot.
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What? I am confused as to how voting affects this situation. I thought this discussion was about a boy who got tasered by the police and people's different views on it. This has nothing to do with the government directly.
Get over it? Just don't think about it, let the government take care of it .... just vote! All will be well. Yaaaaaaa right! ::)
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Get over it. Go vote. Make a difference. Nobody who is partaking in civil disobedience should expect to be treated like a child. If he hadn't been tased you wouldn't be complaining and things that you now complain about would still happen just as easily... so again: Get over it.
So you're saying that... if he hadn't been tased... then we wouldn't be upset that he was tased... and therefore we should get over it...
You deserve an award of some kind.
@Kalika: You cannot deny that they tasered him after he was already down, that they had the manpower to prevent him from doing any harm, and they tasered him repeatedly anyway. You also can't deny that they told him to get up right after he was tasered, and they then tasered him for not following instructions.
Well, maybe you can deny it, but I cannot.
Those were exactly the words i was about to use :lol:
Thanks Zanzibar, for saving me the trouble...
I was thinking.... oh geez, not this again lol.
As for voting, i did vote this election.
~~Datruth
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Are you upset that he was tased or upset for why he was tased? or upset that he has a Muslim name?
Have you ever had to comply with a law enforcement official? Would you be stupid enough not to follow their commands? Those commands are designed to keep EVERYONE safe not just the officers and victims. Ever been tased? I have... not the worst thing that could happen to you... not nearly as bad as pepper spray IMO.
So yea, I say get over it.
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@Kalika: You cannot deny that they tasered him after he was already down, that they had the manpower to prevent him from doing any harm, and they tasered him repeatedly anyway. You also can't deny that they told him to get up right after he was tasered, and they then tasered him for not following instructions.
Well, maybe you can deny it, but I cannot.
did i ever deny it? did i ever "side" with the police? no. i have not ONCE even mentioned my opinion on the matter. what i KNOW is that the kid was possibly profilied for being non-white and refusing to cooperate. i think the kid was an idiot for standing up to them but that doesnt mean i think he got what he deserved. In fact i think the police were horribly horribly wrong. But was i there? did i see what happened? did i actually WITNESS it? no, therefore i cannot claim a complete knowledge of the matter. i admit to my blindfolds.
if youve actually read any of my other posts you would realize that im very liberal and a total hippie. i am agaisnt the use of tazers unless absolutely needed, and i am a pacifist. I have no clue where you would get that i would even side with the police.
also---look at Gandhi he was almost beaten to death multiple times for refusing to cooperate with law enforcement. no the kid didnt deserve to get tazered but maybe he sohuldve thought twice about standing up. im all for it, dont get me wrong...but its like playing with a big strange dog, you never know if theyll bite
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Are you upset that he was tased or upset for why he was tased? or upset that he has a Muslim name?
Have you ever had to comply with a law enforcement official? Would you be stupid enough not to follow their commands? Those commands are designed to keep EVERYONE safe not just the officers and victims. Ever been tased? I have... not the worst thing that could happen to you... not nearly as bad as pepper spray IMO.
So yea, I say get over it.
I am sorry but that still doesn't explain what voting has to do with it.
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i think Kelod meant voting as in, youre not happy with something? go vote and make a difference :flowers:
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Is there a student government at UCLA? Yea, one would assume... and I think they could pull some weight in decision making... or is that too far fetched?
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Are you upset that he was tased or upset for why he was tased? or upset that he has a Muslim name?
Have you ever had to comply with a law enforcement official? Would you be stupid enough not to follow their commands? Those commands are designed to keep EVERYONE safe not just the officers and victims. Ever been tased? I have... not the worst thing that could happen to you... not nearly as bad as pepper spray IMO.
So yea, I say get over it.
..... He was complying with LAw inforcement.....
He was on his way out, when they grabbed his shoulder, he shoved it off, and thats when the second police officer came and tazed him.
YEa, that's really going to keep me safer on campus.
And Tazer's have different LEvels of power, You can get tazed full blast or tazed for like two seconds on low power.
REgardless, this kid got a FULL taze, for not leaving quickly enough, even though he was leaving and got stopped.
~~Datruth
Sounds like you don't know the facts of the case, i suggest you study them before you make anymore mistakes.
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Where did I try to state facts? I suggest you stop taking my opinion as a personal attack.. before you stop keeping my interest and lose my respect...
PS. Show me when Captain Kirk said to set em to Full Stun.
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Is there a student government at UCLA? Yea, one would assume... and I think they could pull some weight in decision making... or is that too far fetched?
Wow! Could you be any more of a jerk? I ask a question and you treat me simple minded because I seek more knowledge about your point of view and what you are meaning. I think your misreading my posts tone, and someone needs to have his cranky pills.
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Everyone needs to chill out before this thread is locked off. This is a topic to get easily passionate about, but being passionate about something doesn't mean you can step on other people. Thread warning.
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Are you upset that he was tased or upset for why he was tased? or upset that he has a Muslim name?
Have you ever had to comply with a law enforcement official? Would you be stupid enough not to follow their commands? Those commands are designed to keep EVERYONE safe not just the officers and victims. Ever been tased? I have... not the worst thing that could happen to you... not nearly as bad as pepper spray IMO.
So yea, I say get over it.
Where did I try to state facts? I suggest you stop taking my opinion as a personal attack.. before you stop keeping my interest and lose my respect...
You were talkinging about listening to law enforcement. How LISTENING to those commands will keep everyone safe.
I Replied telling you he did listen, and tazing him didn't keep me safer.
~~Datruth
EDIT:
I still don't get why this isn't on t.v
They show the dumbest things sometimes lol, but they refuse to actually have a nice, in depth Report on this.
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Wow! Could you be any more of a jerk? I ask a question and you treat me simple minded because I seek more knowledge about your point of view and what you are meaning. I think your misreading my posts tone, and someone needs to have his cranky pills.
I think you are misreading my tone...
*edit*
Are you upset that he was tased or upset for why he was tased? or upset that he has a Muslim name?
Have you ever had to comply with a law enforcement official? Would you be stupid enough not to follow their commands? Those commands are designed to keep EVERYONE safe not just the officers and victims. Ever been tased? I have... not the worst thing that could happen to you... not nearly as bad as pepper spray IMO.
So yea, I say get over it.
Where did I try to state facts? I suggest you stop taking my opinion as a personal attack.. before you stop keeping my interest and lose my respect...
You were talkinging about listening to law enforcement. How LISTENING to those commands will keep everyone safe.
I Replied telling you he did listen, and tazing him didn't keep me safer.
~~Datruth
I never said LISTEN, I said COMPLY. Facts? Please...
Please avoid making one post right after the other in the same thread. Just "Modify" your first post to add more information. --Karyuu
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Wow! Could you be any more of a jerk? I ask a question and you treat me simple minded because I seek more knowledge about your point of view and what you are meaning. I think your misreading my posts tone, and someone needs to have his cranky pills.
I think you are misreading my tone...
Oh and could i have it on record here, that you feel getting a full taze is less painfull then pepper spray? :P
I think you were joking, but i need to know if that was your official stance.
~~Datruth
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Everyone needs to chill out before this thread is locked off. This is a topic to get easily passionate about, but being passionate about something doesn't mean you can step on other people. Thread warning.
/me points up
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Everyone needs to chill out before this thread is locked off. This is a topic to get easily passionate about, but being passionate about something doesn't mean you can step on other people. Thread warning.
/me points up
Did i say something bad?
Anyways, Kalika, Did that class agree on anything, when you had that discussion.
Do you remember if any points were agreed upon by everyone.
Possibly the kid being overly tazered?
Oh and <3 Kalika :D , I just noticed your first reply, thanks for the <3
~~Datruth
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Yes, I have been both tased and sprayed with pepper spray... pepper spray was by far worse. A taser has you lose control of your muscles for the time in which it is on. Pepper spray can burn your skin and takes at least 15 min to get off. So yea, I would rather be tased than sprayed.
Some good info on Less than Lethal weapons... http://www.iejs.com/TechnologyandCrime/Law_Enforcement_Technology/less_than_lethal_weapons.htm
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:devil: Lets test!
/me sprays Datruth with pepper spray
/me tasers Datruth
So which hurt more? I bet my broken toe hurts the most. :-\
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Everyone needs to chill out before this thread is locked off. This is a topic to get easily passionate about, but being passionate about something doesn't mean you can step on other people. Thread warning.
/me points up
Did i say something bad?
Anyways, Kalika, Did that class agree on anything, when you had that discussion.
Do you remember if any points were agreed upon by everyone.
Possibly the kid being overly tazered?
Oh and <3 Kalika :D , I just noticed your first reply, thanks for the <3
~~Datruth
i said it becasue it seemed to me that kelod had made a remark that wasnt agreed with (or even understood) and you all were still discussing it. there was nothing bad aht i saw but im sensitive and i did feel that people were being stepped on. so i thought that i might repeat KAryuu jsaut in case
Our class was upset with what happened, yes. But we also happened to have an ex-police officer in our class who described the police procedure. Our teacher refused to take a stance becase he would prefer to be the devil's advocate therefore i got to hear a lot of stuff about what the police could possibly be thinking. Doesnt mean i agree, but you seriously have to take into account that profiling does happen quite often, and not every police officer is mentally equipped to deal with that. Also its not jsut the police, its the securty guards that have to be taken into question, the student themself that has to be taken into question, the students around etc....
There were no points "officially" agreed on by the class. We had a big unit on civil disobediance and were more willing to side with the victim though we did take into account the other stuff that was mentioned.
One Persian student happened to mention that this scared him, becase it could happen to him anywhere.
Basically we agreed that the Student in question assumed he was being profilied by the security guards. we agreed that it was procedure (i dont know the details) for them to contact the police regarding the situation. We agreed that the police were not justified in tazering the student. We agreed that the student should have taken into account what could possibly happen BEFORE the police tazered him and he refused to cooperate with them and the security guards. We also discussed the possible reasons for him not cooperating, and the consequences of what could happen to the police.
When i watched the video in class i desperately wanted to bash the police heads into the floor.
:D i like <3's :D
sorry for the ranmbling...im going off of a memory :P
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:devil: Lets test!
/me sprays Datruth with pepper spray
/me tasers Datruth
So which hurt more? I bet my broken toe hurts the most. :-\
I'd have to say the one that could kill you hurts more ;)
Just a random guess though lol ;D
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I'd have to say the one that could kill you hurts more ;)
Just a random guess though lol ;D
Come on now... death doesn't imply pain nor does pain imply death.
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Pain is good because it lets you know your alive.
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I'd have to say the one that could kill you hurts more ;)
Just a random guess though lol ;D
Come on now... death doesn't imply pain nor does pain imply death.
Lol, ;D :lol:, I agree, There is absolutely no pain when you are dead.
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Are you upset that he was tased or upset for why he was tased? or upset that he has a Muslim name?
Have you ever had to comply with a law enforcement official? Would you be stupid enough not to follow their commands? Those commands are designed to keep EVERYONE safe not just the officers and victims. Ever been tased? I have... not the worst thing that could happen to you... not nearly as bad as pepper spray IMO.
So yea, I say get over it.
He was complying. Even then, non-compliance does not give the police the right to pull out a taser. Being tased by a police taser on a high setting is not the same as what most people think it is.
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He was complying. Even then, non-compliance does not give the police the right to pull out a taser. Being tased by a police taser on a high setting is not the same as what most people think it is.
but he wasnt before he got tazered.
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He was complying. Even then, non-compliance does not give the police the right to pull out a taser. Being tased by a police taser on a high setting is not the same as what most people think it is.
but he wasnt before he got tazered.
Actually Kalika, that's not Entirely true, this is how it went.
They wanted his I.D card, he didn't have it on him, even though he is a student.
They told him to leave, he refused saying they shouldn't have just targeted him, that they should check the other kids I.D's as well.
The cops come(real ones lol), tell him to go.
He's on his way out, a cop grabs his Shoulder, he shakes off the cops hand, and another cop grabs him and Tazes him.
This is the account of about 12 witnesses, The official Police Report doesn't mention that(The shoulder part), not that it would anyways.
From this, i'd say he eventually complied to all of their wishes, even leaving the area as they wanted.
~~Datruth
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Why didn't he just show his I.D. or say he forgot it or that he didn't have one? You'd be surprised how nice law enforcement can be when one doesn't act like a jerk...
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They wanted his I.D card, he didn't have it on him, even though he is a student.
They told him to leave, he refused saying they shouldn't have just targeted him, that they should check the other kids I.D's as well.
~~Datruth
thats what i meant previously by the profiling. This had potential of never happening if he hadnt refused, then the cops wouldnt ahve come then then he wouldnt ahve been tazered, then this thread would never have existed.
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He was complying. Even then, non-compliance does not give the police the right to pull out a taser. Being tased by a police taser on a high setting is not the same as what most people think it is.
but he wasnt before he got tazered.
Yes, he was. From all reports except for the police report which has been proven to be filled with lies by both the media and the student's lawyer, when the cops showed up, he began to leave the building. They stopped him from leaving.
Some videos of people getting tasered:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FgXe1xf16E (notice that this is a very large man being sent to the ground by the taser)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACUjnJBHIZc&mode=related&search= (a well built man sent to the ground by the taser)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVzwUY2CvGA (young woman sent to the ground)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X16IXkhaP5A (man sent to the ground)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpXtumHiVXY (in shape police officer sent to the ground)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00Mez9O0ICg (to his knees from a short charge)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beN0fjVy718 (again, sent to the ground)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4zv7LuwmnE (again, big guy sent to the ground)
Compare those videos to the videos of friends shocking eachother for fun. If you think getting tasered isn't a big deal, you're full of it. Get tasered by someone who knows how to do it right then you can talk about it.
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They wanted his I.D card, he didn't have it on him, even though he is a student.
They told him to leave, he refused saying they shouldn't have just targeted him, that they should check the other kids I.D's as well.
~~Datruth
thats what i meant previously by the profiling. This had potential of never happening if he hadnt refused, then the cops wouldnt ahve come then then he wouldnt ahve been tazered, then this thread would never have existed.
Kalika, Kids have been getting kicked out of Libraries for ages.
Now if they dont do it fast enough, you get tazed.
I do not feel that is right, and i do not feel the kid has ANY blame whatsoever, he didn't do anything illegal.
~~Datruth
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He was complying. Even then, non-compliance does not give the police the right to pull out a taser. Being tased by a police taser on a high setting is not the same as what most people think it is.
but he wasnt before he got tazered.
Yes, he was. From all reports except for the police report which has been proven to be filled with lies by both the media and the student's lawyer, when the cops showed up, he began to leave the building. They stopped him from leaving.
Some videos of people getting tasered:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FgXe1xf16E (notice that this is a very large man being sent to the ground by the taser)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACUjnJBHIZc&mode=related&search= (a well built man sent to the ground by the taser)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVzwUY2CvGA (young woman sent to the ground)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X16IXkhaP5A (man sent to the ground)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpXtumHiVXY (in shape police officer sent to the ground)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00Mez9O0ICg (to his knees from a short charge)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beN0fjVy718 (again, sent to the ground)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4zv7LuwmnE (again, big guy sent to the ground)
Compare those videos to the videos of friends shocking eachother for fun. If you think getting tasered isn't a big deal, you're full of it. Get tasered by someone who knows how to do it right then you can talk about it.
Oh, right. The officer who tased me was just some kid friend of mine playing games. Remind me next time I'm getting arrested for disorderly conduct to give B1 a wedgie and B2 a wet willy...
I'm done 'debating' here since it's clear that we're all too high and mighty to ask questions and to not assume. Enjoy!
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Oh, right. The officer who tased me was just some kid friend of mine playing games. Remind me next time I'm getting arrested for disorderly conduct to give B1 a wedgie and B2 a wet willy...
Did it go down like in the videos I posted? Yes or no?
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He was complying. Even then, non-compliance does not give the police the right to pull out a taser. Being tased by a police taser on a high setting is not the same as what most people think it is.
but he wasnt before he got tazered.
Yes, he was. From all reports except for the police report which has been proven to be filled with lies by both the media and the student's lawyer, when the cops showed up, he began to leave the building. They stopped him from leaving.
Some videos of people getting tasered:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FgXe1xf16E (notice that this is a very large man being sent to the ground by the taser)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACUjnJBHIZc&mode=related&search= (a well built man sent to the ground by the taser)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVzwUY2CvGA (young woman sent to the ground)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X16IXkhaP5A (man sent to the ground)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpXtumHiVXY (in shape police officer sent to the ground)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00Mez9O0ICg (to his knees from a short charge)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beN0fjVy718 (again, sent to the ground)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4zv7LuwmnE (again, big guy sent to the ground)
Compare those videos to the videos of friends shocking eachother for fun. If you think getting tasered isn't a big deal, you're full of it. Get tasered by someone who knows how to do it right then you can talk about it.
Oh, right. The officer who tased me was just some kid friend of mine playing games. Remind me next time I'm getting arrested for disorderly conduct to give B1 a wedgie and B2 a wet willy...
I'm sorry kelod, But i cannot take your sole word, and believe that a Taser is less harmless than Pepperspray.
That fact that a taser kills, while pepperspray doesn't, means i must atleast use some scrutiny.
Also the fact that i cannot find anyone, on the internet or in real life, that agrees with you.
They may exist, but the vast majority of people i've found, say a taser is much more dangerous than pepperspray, as well as painfull.
So i'm sorry for being so Scepticle, but you understand my reasons as to why i can't just take your word for it.
~~Datruth
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I'm done 'debating' here since it's clear that we're all too high and mighty to ask questions and to not assume. Enjoy!
The only one here who's been acting "high and mighty" is you. Did your experience of being hit with a taser happen like in the videos I posted or not? Is it even comparable to what happened to the student? You can't say that people aren't asking questions. Half the thread is people asking questions.
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One thing is that people have died from pepper spray, all it takes is an allergy or a respiratory disease. At some of the demonstrations against the globalization talks the air was saturated with that stuff. Whole neighborhoods were subjected to it. The other thing I wanted to mention is that the affect of a tazer can be influenced by the amount of electrolyes in your system.
That is all.
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One thing is that people have died from pepper spray, all it takes is an allergy or a respiratory disease. At some of the demonstrations against the globalization talks the air was saturated with that stuff. Whole neighborhoods were subjected to it. The other thing I wanted to mention is that the affect of a tazer can be influenced by the amount of electrolyes in your system.
That is all.
Do you mean Electrolytes bilbous?
IF so? why?
Could it be that it handles the current better?
~~Datruth
BEWARE OF GATORADE, mwahahahahahah
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Exactly, fill yourself up with one of those power drinks and you'll be a lot worse off, I suspect. You may not suffer as much physical damage due to acting as a resister but I imagine your nervous system will get more toasty. Of course I am speculating but it makes sense to me.
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Why didn't he just show his I.D. or say he forgot it or that he didn't have one? You'd be surprised how nice law enforcement can be when one doesn't act like a jerk...
You can make this sentence for all sorts of occasions, 'The homeless guy that this officer shot previously shouldnt have been on the premises, He should have thought about the consequences', 'That guy shouldnt have looked at me like that, I had to hit him, He should have thought of the consequences' and pretty much anything else that happens infact. IMO it just isnt a reasonable argument.
Now I mention it, did anyone else see the thing about the incident where this officer shot some homeless guy a couple of years ago?
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Why didn't he just show his I.D. or say he forgot it or that he didn't have one? You'd be surprised how nice law enforcement can be when one doesn't act like a jerk...
You can make this sentence for all sorts of occasions, 'The homeless guy that this officer shot previously shouldnt have been on the premises, He should have thought about the consequences', 'That guy shouldnt have looked at me like that, I had to hit him, He should have thought of the consequences' and pretty much anything else that happens infact. IMO it just isnt a reasonable argument.
Now I mention it, did anyone else see the thing about the incident where this officer shot some homeless guy a couple of years ago?
No i didn't see anything about it Idoru, Send me a link to it if you can find one.
And you make a perfect piont, Excuses are excuses, we judge people according to the law.
And according to the law, The poor kid was innocent, and the Cops Guilty.
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external forum post about the shooting (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2624689)
LA Times news article (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-taser21nov21,0,1459046.story?coll=la-home-headlines)
It also looks like the officer was sacked from long beach PD (think thats the one) 18 years ago, was reccomended for dismissal from his current job after an alleged assault of a student and add to that the shooting and the TASERing and you have a model law enforcement officer :thumbdown:
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external forum post about the shooting (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2624689)
LA Times news article (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-taser21nov21,0,1459046.story?coll=la-home-headlines)
It also looks like the officer was sacked from long beach PD (think thats the one) 18 years ago, was reccomended for dismissal from his current job after an alleged assault of a student and add to that the shooting and the TASERing and you have a model law enforcement officer :thumbdown:
OMG, that guy needs to be FIRED, like NOW!
Thanks for that info Idoru, this changes things a whole lot more, i can bet a few thousand more people are on our side now.
I mean how could you defend this officer now.... :thumbdown:
Great job again Idoru! :thumbup:
~~Datruth
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good fire him!! only a million more to go and thats being optimistic. why dont some of you people who have such strong ideas on this brutality tell a story of when you were harassed by cops phisically or verbally abused. because unless you've been in the situation you really cant understand it. i have two instances with the police that im sure everyone would like to hear, and yes ones got phisical abuse in it, yano the juicy stuff. but i'd like to hear some of yours first. especially datruth i know he has had some kind of run in with the law
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only a million more to go and thats being optimistic
Is the US police force really that many people??? it sounds more pessimistic to me :D
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are you kidding? i live in north carolina and there is more than a million people in this state. in connecticut they have like 3 or 4 million people and new york i think is just above 10 million. i didnt do research on these numbers so i may be off a little but thats just 3 states out of 50..... im sure nypd and lapd would have almost 100 thousand alone.
*sorry i ment 10 thousand*
*and datruth a few thousand on your side? more than 3/4 of the world population would be on your side.. it was an unjust action for a minor infraction. getting people on your side isnt hard at all especially for something as brutal as this.. its fixing the problem*
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LAPD: over 9,000 officers and 3,000 civilian staff.
NYPD: 35,000 officers (which is the biggest in the US)
But how many of those are scum like this guy ???
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This discussion is actually quite interesting given a reading I just did for a paper I'm writing. The text discusses an Italian philsopher - Giorgio Agamben (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgio_Agamben), who discusses how sovereignty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty), and the power of the sovereign, is actually based on exceptions to what the regular social laws are. This basically means, that sovereign power functions by creating situations where it doesn't have to follow it's own laws (like the USA and Guantanamo Bay), and according to Agamben, eventually this sovereign power shifts from a leader to the police - where the police are able to act without the command of some higher power.
Situations like this taser incident, while shocking, do not come as a surprise to someone like Agamben, who sees these kinds of acts as the hidden rule of our structures of power, and according to him, we will likely see more and more of these situations coming up and making visible the inherent violence of our current political systems.
So rather than this being an example of one police officer who was a "bad seed", the situation at UCLA demonstrates the broader structure that allows the police to be able to taser someone, even if it's against its own rules, in the first place.
[Note: ok, this was written after spending 24hrs working on this paper ;P Sorry if it's too much, but sometimes I just need to put down on a page the things I'm thinking that can't go into a paper]
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good fire him!! only a million more to go and thats being optimistic. why dont some of you people who have such strong ideas on this brutality tell a story of when you were harassed by cops phisically or verbally abused. because unless you've been in the situation you really cant understand it. i have two instances with the police that im sure everyone would like to hear, and yes ones got phisical abuse in it, yano the juicy stuff. but i'd like to hear some of yours first. especially datruth i know he has had some kind of run in with the law
[I will be using fake names to keep the identities of the people I speak of and will only answer certain questions due to privacy to myself and others in this story. With pictures posted and other tid bits of information about my daughter, my husband and myself I will not give names, locations, dates, etc, if they conflict with my privacy. I have to keep my families safety in mind and as much as I love this community, I also know there are alot of weirdo's out there.]
I have heard about alot of cases being a counselor for group homes and troubled teens at one point. So here goes one story ....
Joe in a car riding with his friend Gerry decides to get some marijuana. They pick it up and on their way back home see a cop car. Gerry decides to stick out his tongue at the police officer as they drive by. Police officer stops them and askes them for ID. Once seeing the ID they ask them to get out of the car for a search. Joe gets caught with the weed and tells the police officer that Gerry made him carry it and that it was his. The policeman tells his partner to go have a chat with Gerry. Police officer grabs Gerry and slams him down on the hood of the car and demands that he confess. Gerry know's his rights and tells the officer that he doesn't have to answer any of his questions. Officer gets more angry and then slams Gerry down to the ground causing an injury to his jaw including a huge gash. The officer then cuffs Gerry and lets the friend go. The police officer decides he hasn't made enough of a point to Gerry and decides to strip search him in the middle of the street [leaving underwear on]. Pulls down Gerry's pants claiming he is doing this to see if Gerry has anymore dope. They then take him to the police station and the officer presses charges aganist Gerry for assult and resisting arrest.
This same officer over the years has been in the paper time and time again for assulting people or doing wrong. Not following protocal. Many of the kids I have counselled have talked with me about him. He has been a known problem to the police force but they still sit there and do nothing no matter how many people step forward or what evidence has been presented. This cop has finally killed a young man and is set to have a trial this year.
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I find these kind of people really...... ummm...... the forums policy and my lack of an advanced enough vocabulary stop me from expressing what I want to say.
Anyway, im pretty glad that I live in the UK, I got caught with weed once by the police and got a caution (technically a slap on the wrists 'dont do it again' sort of thing). I feel that the world is pretty screwed when people wont listen to the views of 'the youth' or for that matter anyone who happens to disagree with their view point.
If this 'person' had been fired on the first event then a person would still be alive now.
Makes me wonder if we will be hearing about this particular officer killing someone in a couple of years >:(
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Makes me wonder if we will be hearing about this particular officer killing someone in a couple of years >:(
I am right there with you. I have huge doubt's that this officer will spend time in jail for this boys death. I also don't think he will be fired from his job although right now he is suspended until the trial is over. To think this man is there to "serve and protect." Don't we feel so safe ......
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good fire him!! only a million more to go and thats being optimistic.
Which means we should start firing them now so we don't lose time.:)
why dont some of you people who have such strong ideas on this brutality tell a story of when you were harassed by cops phisically or verbally abused. because unless you've been in the situation you really cant understand it. i have two instances with the police that im sure everyone would like to hear, and yes ones got phisical abuse in it, yano the juicy stuff. but i'd like to hear some of yours first. especially datruth i know he has had some kind of run in with the law
If you're saying that no matter how bad we think it is it's actually worse, then you're making us more right in condemning the officer's actions. Is that your intent?
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This discussion is actually quite interesting given a reading I just did for a paper I'm writing. The text discusses an Italian philsopher - Giorgio Agamben (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgio_Agamben), who discusses how sovereignty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty), and the power of the sovereign, is actually based on exceptions to what the regular social laws are. This basically means, that sovereign power functions by creating situations where it doesn't have to follow it's own laws (like the USA and Guantanamo Bay), and according to Agamben, eventually this sovereign power shifts from a leader to the police - where the police are able to act without the command of some higher power.
Situations like this taser incident, while shocking, do not come as a surprise to someone like Agamben, who sees these kinds of acts as the hidden rule of our structures of power, and according to him, we will likely see more and more of these situations coming up and making visible the inherent violence of our current political systems.
So rather than this being an example of one police officer who was a "bad seed", the situation at UCLA demonstrates the broader structure that allows the police to be able to taser someone, even if it's against its own rules, in the first place.
[Note: ok, this was written after spending 24hrs working on this paper ;P Sorry if it's too much, but sometimes I just need to put down on a page the things I'm thinking that can't go into a paper]
That was a great Post Thyme, how the curruption of the higher ups, and their breaking their own laws, trickles down the line to the Officers.
I think you're paper will turn out to be Excellent.
AS FOR conetic, sorry i mispelled name, I've actually never been in trouble with the law, or had a ticket thus far.
I've been pulled over twice, but both were for accidents, Neither of which were severe enough to Warrant a ticket and the cop understood my actions were accidents.
So no, i've not had a bad life with the police.
As for the guy, who killed that homeless person and tasered that kid, I say he should rot in Jail for 10 years.
~~Datruth
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grrr i forgot to check this all day and now its to late for me to write my two stories... i promise they will keep you entertained. i'll have time tomorrow. as for that story with dude sticking his tounge out at the officer... what kind of as was said a lack of vocabulary and forum rules.... i'll use the word mencia uses.. DEE DEE DEE sticks his tounge out at a cop with reefer in the car? if you have anything illegal in the car.. u take ur hats off, music down windows up drive the speed limit... so as for that im totally with the cop on that, if i was there i woulda punched dude right in the back of the head for acting a fool. whether the cop was right or not.. which i dont think he was, sometimes those kinda ignorant decisions deserve ignorant actions. but thats just me. everyone wait till tomorrow for my two stories which are true, completely. but they will be very long. as for a teaser... once i was picked up for alledgedly being involved with 4 armed robberys in the first degree and one was a bank! try to guess how the cops tried to get info from me. the other was a rutine traffic stop that turned into a long long night... =)
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It is easy for you to judge I see, though you shouldn't speak so quickly. The person who stuck his tongue out at the cop was just goofing around. [He is a good kid in RL and not stupid by any means. He has actually just gone on to his second year of university and is aspiring to become a doctor.] His friend was worried about getting caught with the pot, so to freak his friend out Gerry stuck his tongue out at the cop car. Everyone has those moments when you just act completely foolish, it's that thing called being a kid and having fun. I am sure you have had your not so bright moments in life like that too so don't be so quick to put others down. It is always easy to see what you would have done in the situation after it has already taken place.
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I personally would have to agree with Giorgio Agamben's point of view (if the Wiki article is enough to go on lol)
Dont have much more to say other than im sure Thymes paper will kick ass, smart lass, smart post, must be a smart paper ;)
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just cuz hes in a university dont make him intellegent. there are two kinds of smart. book smart and street smart, [common sense]. you are right i have done some foolish things in my time but even still it was an act of stupidy and look what happend. im sure he is very smart to be an aspiring doctor.. just common sense might be lacking.
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but even still it was an act of stupidy and look what happend. im sure he is very smart to be an aspiring doctor.. just common sense might be lacking.
True people can lack common sense on certian issues and perhaps he didn't exercises his when sticking out his tongue. Still He didn't deserve what the "punishment" for his foolish act became. He is a kid who was goofing around. That happens. In this situation I think the police officer was in the wrong and guilty of having abused his power of authority. :lol: All kids rebel, it is in their DNA. There has to be some tolerance on the police officers behalf, after all they are trained to do so. Children and teens also have to learn from their mistakes but they have to make the mistakes in order to learn the lessons. In this case that is exactly what happened only this officer choose to treat this individual poorly and taught a lesson they shouldn't have been taught. To hate authority and not respect it. Mixing that with lack of common sense would be a bad thing.
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there are two kinds of smart. book smart and street smart, [common sense].
I don't agree with that statement even slightly. There are many different kinds of intelligence - there are even many different kinds of common sense.
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just cuz hes in a university dont make him intellegent. there are two kinds of smart. book smart and street smart, [common sense]. you are right i have done some foolish things in my time but even still it was an act of stupidy and look what happend. im sure he is very smart to be an aspiring doctor.. just common sense might be lacking.
That's not true.
I'm not Saying all smart people go to universities.
But i'm saying this, Anyone who is going to UCLA, Isn't stupid. It's not easy to get there, and it's definetly not easy to become a doctor.
So no i disagree, i feel, if you are at UCLA you cannot be considered stupid.
And theres no such thing as Street smart lol, it's best to use the word "common Sense" which is what he might lack a little in.
~~Datruth
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Street smart vs book smart
You are both right, I have met some very nieve doctors. Yes they are inteligent enough to graduate med school, but in many cases (not all) thats all they know. They have developed a tunnel vision, and anything outside of medicine is forign to them and they come off as unintelligent. I have also met some incredibly inteligent doctors that have amazed me with thier wide thourough (sp) knowledge. This can be applied to any proffesion, it is the person not the proffesion. I have met so called uneducated people, that are very inteligent and have a great understanding of many things. People do not need a piece of paper (diploma) in order to be inteligent, a diploma just shows they have spent the time and effort to learn that perticular field.
I have a sister in-law whom I call the most inteligent stoopid person I know. She has 5 masters degrees in varius fields and is to this day studying for her 6th. However she connot understand freeway signs, she cannot read a map, she cannot have an inteligent conversation on any current affairs, unless it is directly related to one of her areas of study. She is IMHO the poster child for book smart.
Street smart to me is having the understanding of the unwritten laws of the gerneral public, and having a good understanding of its social structure and being able to use that knowledge in a practical way. Wiki's definition is "Street Smart, is a word meaning having shrewd resourcefulness needed to survive in an urban environment." I dont think this can just be generalized as common sence, street smart is much more that your typical common sence. Each persons enviroment and social standing dictates what is common sence, what is common sence for me is much different than it is for an English(UK) person living in a ghetto, or a Tibetan monk.
Relating this back to the original topic; The officer that used the taser has a history of agresivnes and violence, but he ussualy gets away with it. I can, with almost certanty say that he does this much more than is ever reported. In his case he knows what actions he ussualy takes to get the results he wants, this to him is common sence. It is a sick and twisted view, but i believe it is still his views of common sence.
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Not that it has anything to do with the original topic, but yes there is a such thing as street smart. And it is pretty much what Laragorn describes it as. It is more than just common sense. I have some good friends who didnt even finish high school.. but you would be surprised as to what they do know. In actuality it is tough to say someone is stupid in general.. because eveyone knows something :P.
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LARAGORN, that was an awesome post actually.
And i wish your sister luck bro, 6 masters degrees...... woah...
Anyways, How do i test my street smarts, as you call it?
~~Datruth
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http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=kinds+of+intelligence&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
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LARAGORN, that was an awesome post actually.
And i wish your sister luck bro, 6 masters degrees...... woah...
Anyways, How do i test my street smarts, as you call it?
~~Datruth
im not sure... but i know if you stick your tounge out at an officer while riding in a car with weed.... you fail the test. ;D
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/me looks up and laughs in agreement
LARAGORN, that was an awesome post actually.
And i wish your sister luck bro, 6 masters degrees...... woah...
Anyways, How do i test my street smarts, as you call it?
~~Datruth
That isnt an easy question to answer, simply because everyones personalities are different. I guess If you wanted to test your street smarts, ( I am not sugesting anyone try this) you would go to an area that isnt the friendlyest or safest and see if you can fit in. now if you have street smarts you would already know what areas to stay away from, because there is no way you would fit in. Simply by talking to an individual from different social circles, would tell you right away. If you can comunicate at the same level, using the same vocabulary and using the same analogies, and they dont think you are a goof; then I would say you have a degree of street smarts.
The same can be said of the business world, 'If you can walk the walk and talk the talk' so to speak. I have a good friend, Glen, and he is a self made millionair. He has no formal education, other than grade twelve. His IQ according to some, put him in the lower average class of inteligence. He was at the right place at the right time and bought 1000 acres in Belise, and in less than 48 hours his 64 thousand dollar investment was turned into over 1 million, by only selling 2 half acre lots. That would be enough for some, just sell off one here and there and live in luxury, but not for Glen. He then bought a trucking company that was on the verge of bankruptcy, it came with 8 tractors and 10 trailers for under 100 thousand. He now has 48 tractors and 80 trailers, and is the sole transporter (citywide) for a departent of one of the largest nickle companies in the world. He has purchased 4 warehouses to store the product he buys from the company, then sells it back when they need it (with a healthy markup). His contracts add up to over 500 million a year. Not bad for an uneducated fella who is just turning 39, Glen is my poster child for street smart.
So the test depends on the individual, thier background and their personality. I am very fortunate, as i feel just as at home in a board meeting, a classroom, or sitting shootin the sh*t with the boys from the group that run everything on the streets (if ya know what i mean).
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That's an awseome Story Laragorn.
And your Friend is really smart, as you mentioned, maybe not IQ wise and all, but definetly street smart.
Good to keep in mind.
~~Datruth
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wow isnt it nice to see how some people agree with the same people, and disagree with the same people and then there becomes a "rift" and people tart accusing each other of doing something bad and the other side is accusing some one else of doing something bad?
you never escape it.
not unless both sides are willing to lay down their pride and accept the other viewpoint as equally valid even if they do not agree.
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wow isnt it nice to see how some people agree with the same people, and disagree with the same people and then there becomes a "rift" and people tart accusing each other of doing something bad and the other side is accusing some one else of doing something bad?
you never escape it.
not unless both sides are willing to lay down their pride and accept the other viewpoint as equally valid even if they do not agree.
I can agree to disagree with someone and yet maintain that I see their viewpoint as invalid.
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wow isnt it nice to see how some people agree with the same people, and disagree with the same people and then there becomes a "rift" and people tart accusing each other of doing something bad and the other side is accusing some one else of doing something bad?
you never escape it.
not unless both sides are willing to lay down their pride and accept the other viewpoint as equally valid even if they do not agree.
I can agree to disagree with someone and yet maintain that I see their viewpoint as invalid.
"yet maintain that I see their viewpoint as invalid."
then what makes you feel so darn valid about your point? do you walk into a church and say "hello i believe in Buddha, you dont therefore your wrong. oh! you disagree with me? how uncivilized you fools. anywho im going to burn every passage in your bible that i do not agree with or i will debate it mercilessly until you agree that im right."
oh, you dont?
then why do it here?
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Kalika, are you saying that my behaviour on this forum is the same as burning Bibles and insulting people while in their own places of worship? I hope you realize that's a load of BS. All I said in the other thread was that we should be open to contrasting religious beliefs, and then I stated my own interpretation of the meaning of Christmas. Further, this is an internet forum and an international community. People come here to share and discuss opinions, and if you can't handle that, maybe it's you who doesn't belong.
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Kalika, are you saying that my behaviour on this forum is the same as burning Bibles and insulting people while in their own places of worship? I hope you realize that's a load of BS. All I said in the other thread was that we should be open to contrasting religious beliefs, and then I stated my own interpretation of the meaning of Christmas. Further, this is an internet forum and an international community. People come here to share and discuss opinions, and if you can't handle that, maybe it's you who doesn't belong.
uhhh whattttt???
that post had nothing to do with anything you were talkning about. it jsut popped into my head when i was thinking of people who cant jsut leave things be. sorry if i offended you that much to make you say "People come here to share and discuss opinions, and if you can't handle that, maybe it's you who doesn't belong." which really makes me relize you havent paid any single moment of attention to any of my posts, because if you did, you would realize im all about ACCEPTANCE and LOVE, not oh i hate this or oo i ahte that blah blah blah. and yes this is an internet forum and an international community and i REALLY dont see why every one has to pick at each others posts, because seriously, it makes ME feel sad for the people whos every word and thought is completely analyzed and struck down by some person who think that they are the almighty of the forum. i hadnt even directed any of my comments tha ti know of as a personal attack against you yet i feel as if this will be taken personally
and i dont even know what your rant about Chrismtmas was cause i didnt even read it , and if i did i sure dont remember it. anywho bringing up the bible nad buddha was jsut an EXAMPLE that happened to pop into my head while typing. thats all it was.
smoke a bowl, have a drink., take a walk...wahtever. but dont pick this apart too because i honestly and REALLY sick adn tired of itl
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I don't see how you can post the tripe that you wrote and then NOT expect a strong negative reaction. More likely, you meant to insult me, and now you're trying to play the victim.
Don't worry about offending me. You've shown me that I shouldn't give much weight to what you say, so I won't be offended by you anymore.
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uhm okkkkkk
let me give you an example and ill try to be as POLITICALLY CORRECT as possible. I grew up surrounded by racists. okay? i somehow managed to not be racist, jsut becuase i think the whole idea of race is stupid. i hang out wiht my friend marshall his dad is black. ive known him for , gosh, maybe....6 years? and only till someone mentioned it did the fact that he was half-black ever cross my mind. see, i dont see RACE i dont see RELIGION. i jsut see two PEOPLE
i see two people for whatever stpid reason (im sorry but i would say anyone who enforces his beliefs on someone else --ergo the church example- as stupid) constantly fighting or arguing or debating without any solid reason constantly on this forum. And yeah maybe i felt like insulting you while i was writing but i DID NOT play this "victim" instead im just showing you and whoever decides to put the time into reading this that yeah, more people are afffected by what is said then others think. in no way absolutely did i mean to offend ANYONE with ANY of my previous posts. and you know, i would suggest if you MUST leave criticism (cause we all know how easy ythat is) to at LEAST be constructive about it. its fine to disagree adn acknowledge that you do but you dont have to be a complete jerk about it (no this ISNT personal, this is to all the fools out there that think its fine to stomp on someone else ego that never deserved it)
and im sorry to hear that none of what i say from hereforth will ever be taken into consideration by you-zanzibar. thanks for being accepting and intelligent enough to comprehend the words that im typing ,much love :flowers:
but then, your jsut proving your own point.
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I can agree to disagree with someone and yet maintain that I see their viewpoint as invalid.
Yes, I'm sticking up for Zanzi. Kalika, that you misinterpreted this statement is unfortunate. It basically means: (since in order for his viewpoint to be valid, the others must be invalid,) he can say "I disagree with you fellows on this issue, however I am not going to argue with you on it." Usually arguments about belief systems are wasteful expenditures, very few people are actually listening.
edit:Generally, the non-violent emotion of civil disagreement is pity. Playful rivalry is also accepted. Most, however, can recognize the origin and reasons of a logical opponent for holding the idea they believe is mistaken, and respect that. Religion is a little different. Some believe that religion is inherently illogical, ergo their opponents are being unreasonable, etc. Unfortunately a great number of religions require belief without any sort of empirical evidence, so I hope you can understand why a skeptic type would be cynical about the religions of others.
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monketh. my comment was i suppose "distasteful" for everyone. im a terrible person etc whatev i dont care
but the "I am NOt going to argue with you" point?
...........
thats awesome. but no where in any of my posts did i ever intend to make this something religious AS I SAID BEFORE "it was the first thing that popped into my head"
oh no! i "misinterpreted" something! Bad Kalika BAd how could you possibly commit such a heinous crime
monketh, zanzibar wwhoever wahtever...this is nothign personal. im jsut tired of arguing
im going to go cry in ym corner becasue thats what we females do best
......
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I seriously hope your last sentence is sarcastic, and that you have not put that much emotion into this thread.
Trust me, the internet is not worth wasting emotion on. ;)
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no i was actually making a point :'(
this whole thread has been arguing about right and wrong. its the police are bad and this student is good. or this student is bad and the police are good. no ones taking into account that these people are INDIVIDUALS. i made that terrible comment that was taken too seriously because yes, it was the first thing that popped into my head and second, it was too show how people go in someplace that doesnt need it and creates disorder. im really sorry that i used such a touchy topic for people, but becase religion adn race and all that crap jsut doesnt work itself into my brain like ti does others, i dont think about it.
i amde the last comment with a distinct leaning on females to show that you try and stand up for yourself and get your voice heard, buyt your jsut reduced down to a majority of something. in my case, being a female. I do it too, i cant blame someone else for doing it either. But sometimes the thick-headed-ness on this forum really gets me upset. and im sorry if i was mean or whatever.
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It basically means: (since in order for his viewpoint to be valid, the others must be invalid,) he can say "I disagree with you fellows on this issue, however I am not going to argue with you on it."
That's part of it, but not all of it.
Add to that... "I disagree with you fellows on this issue, but I'm not going to condemn you as human beings because of it. To disagree on such things is more natural than not given our society."
@Kalika: Many people in this thread have taken a grey stance on the issues. They've said such things like "The student made a mistake, but the police were wrong in how they reacted." and "One police officer out of the bunch may have been out of control, and the rest of the officers were forced to go along with him because you have to back eachother up in that situation." and "There are many good police officers out there. There are also good police officers in bad situations." Stuff like that.
If you think people are seeing things in such black and white terms, then I'm sorry for that. I don't think it's the case though, I think most people here have been trying to look at things from both sides and they've arrived at somewhere in the middle.
I'm also sorry that you're upset, but I doubt anything I say will help with that so I won't make the mistake of trying.
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More likely, you meant to insult me, and now you're trying to play the victim.
OMG Zanzibar! I can't believe you actually think she is taking a stab at you and just you. You can tell by her personality on the forums that she is not the type to do that and here you are picking her posts apart acting like she was personally coming after you. Why do waste your time and everyone else's and sweat the little things so much? Could you not have just posted this in your first post and left it at that?
If you think people are seeing things in such black and white terms, then I'm sorry for that. I don't think it's the case though, I think most people here have been trying to look at things from both sides and they've arrived at somewhere in the middle.
I have to agree with that statement and it wouldn't have seemed like you were looking for a fight. Maybe others would have posted opinions to address Kalika statement voicing their opinon and feel like they are not entering a war zone. I bet most didn't though because they saw you giving her a rough time and no one wants apart of these stupid little disputes with you. I have been seeing it all over the threads since the day I joined these forums people asking you to back off or stop twisting their words around. I guess today is my turn to post that very same thing. Maybe one day you will listen to your fellow pser's but I won't hold my breath.
@Kalika: The last quote I have from zanzibar rings true for me. I try very hard to keep an open mind about any type of situation and see both sides. I have always been like that. If my posts don't agree with someone that is me disagreeing, not fighting to be right. I think alot of people in this thread made some good points and we if not agreeing are having a healthy debate with it. Maybe the person debating with me or others doesn't feel that way, but it is hard to tell on the threads without facial features or body language to read. We only have words to read and words can be powerful especially if taken in the wrong manner. One thing I have learned in the time I have spent on these forums is you can't assume what a person means. You have to ask them otherwise miscommunications happens far to often. I am so guilty of this [as are we all] and I think I have made enough of those mistakes to actually prevent them now. You have made that mistake with your first post Kalika and have made people feel like they are doing something wrong and should apologize for it. Now they are going to want to defend themselves. Though I am not in total agreement with how Zanzibar has communitcated it to you, he is only trying to point out that you are wrong to think that us as a mojority are one sided on this issue and just bicker about it. That just isn't the case.
Hope you feel better and not so upset. :) *hugs*
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Zorbels, take another look at Kalika's post. Kalika was responding to me. She quoted something I said. She worded things to single me out and her comments were most definately directed at me and about me. It was a stab at me and just me, and a most vicious one at that.
"yet maintain that I see their viewpoint as invalid."
then what makes you feel so darn valid about your point? do you walk into a church and say "hello i believe in Buddha, you dont therefore your wrong. oh! you disagree with me? how uncivilized you fools. anywho im going to burn every passage in your bible that i do not agree with or i will debate it mercilessly until you agree that im right."
oh, you dont?
then why do it here?
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If you agree to disagree you cannot maintain the others point is invalid as it means that you are still arguing. All you can do is drop the subject. You do not have to accept the others points as valid but you must stop challenging them because you have agreed to disagree.
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Point noted but it doesn't change your reactions to people or how you deal with people or your over all rep on the forums.
Vicious! ;D Ok if you say so, I don't read it that way. Or maybe you just like to think people are out to get you. I read her trying to defend her point of view with an example and possibly being little flustered when doing it. What I do know is that half of this community stays away from threads when you post only to avoid petty disagreements with you. You are relentless when you feel you are in the right and won't quit until they stop responding to you. Even then you post with questions or smart ass remarks egging them on. That is what I see, and that is what I am trying to bring to your attention. You can hide behind defending yourself and your statements all you want but it doesn't erase the truth or the pattern you have shown us all. Just so we are clear I am NOT trying to attack you, but I am however being honest in what I see/read.
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@bilbous: "Maintain the other's point is invalid" = "Still think the other guy is wrong"
@zorbels: Kalika said that my behaviour is akin to going around burning Bibles and insulting people in their places of worship. I'd say that's a pretty vicious insult to make.
If you can't handle people disagreeing with you, then the internet isn't for you. Period. Do I insult people personally as a matter of course? No, though I see a lot of other people doing it. Do I defend my opinions on things? Yes, as does everybody else. If I feel that I've been unfairly and personally insulted, will I point it out? In many situations yes, and it would be unfair to expect me not to.
And no. Don't post back saying that everybody agrees with you. If you sincerely believe that, then you have problems. As far as people posting in the threads I contribute to, the reason a person will stay away is for lack of interest. Honestly, all you have to do is look at my post count and you'll see the proof that people are willing to have discussions with me. It's easy as long as long as you're respectful.
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If you agree to disagree you cannot maintain the others point is invalid as it means that you are still arguing.
Woah!!! Bilbous :o
Run for congress man, they need peope like you ;) j.k
You said, in more plain terms, IF you agree to disagree, you CANNOT feel the other person is wrong, OR ELSE you are still argueing.
Thus, If i agree to disagree I MUST agree with Said persons Point.
My response to that:
No.... If i agree to disagree, i will still consider my point valid, and theirs invalid.
No one Rationally would. Using your Same logic, IF we agreed to disagree, on this point, Than you MUST agree with my point, LEST you be arguing, as you stated.
All you can do is drop the subject. You do not have to accept the others points as valid but you must stop challenging them because you have agreed to disagree.
The point Underlined is a Contradictory statement to your first.
Although i agree with one part, That IF you agree to disagree, YOU NEED TO DROP THE SUBJECT.
But that's a given though right? If you agree to disagree.... you usually do drop the point.... that's why it's called agreeing to disagree.
I still <3 Bilbous, so don't take this personally friend :D
I just loved that post so i had to respond to it lol :lol:
~~Datruth
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If you look up the word maintain (http://m-w.com/dictionary/maintain) you will see that while you may be technically correct the general impression of the word in the context it was used is active in nature and not passive. It is the difference between the connotation and the denotation of the term. I maintain that I was correct but if we agree to disagree I will not argue further.
I think I will leave it at that regardless as we are pretty far afield of the original topic.
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@Akaye--*giggles* oh you... :flowers:
@zanzibar-please why cant you jsut drop it? Ive already apologized for saying something that coulod be interpreted as blatantly rude, but it was not meant that way at all.
"Kalika said that my behaviour is akin to going around burning Bibles and insulting people in their places of worship. I'd say that's a pretty vicious insult to make."
----about this remark...in no way was i saying thats what your doing. i was giving an EXAMPLE of things people do and have done before jsut because they thought that what someone ekse thought was wrong. AGAIN i apologize for having mentioned a topic that so seriously disturbed you, but if you actually READ what i worte i put underneath my comment "oh, you dont? then why do it here?" (the why do it here was connecting with debating things mercilessly which you do happen to do many times.) im sorry that i amde what seems a "vicious insult" but as ive said before, i dont think about releigion and race and all that other crap so im less sensitive towards thoughts such as that, and so i was jsut being naive about how it would affect you. again im sorry but i dont take back what i said.
edit---oh goodness i feel bad now, no im not upset ahahha i was never upset jsut a little "miffed?"....bad temper and all but its over fast :flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers: :flowers: there some flowers for everyone :D
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So has any more information actually come to light about what happened there? Was the student being disrespectful and belligerent? Were the police being the same? What was it about the behaviour of the person that prompted the people in charge to contact the authorities in the first place? I have trouble believing the stuff I read in the news mainly because they tend to spin the story so it slants towards whomever they think will buy/watch more news.
I am trying to take into account that whenever there is a position of authority, there will be those who will abuse it BUT I am also considering the fact that the student body of UCLA has a somewhat dismal reputation when it comes to dealing with civil authorities.
I love the way so many of the posts and news stories I have seen around the web load thier so called "unbiased" articles with semantically anti-authoritarian phrases. One of the best ones is "Police TORTURE student for not showing ID at campus library". Wow, next thing you know Fox news will be actually called "Fair and Balanced" by someone that isn't part of the right wing.
Please, educate my. My mind hungers for information. I love it when some of the more... prolific... members of this forum act all indignant and start flame wars. If this one gets any more intense I might be able to light my cigarrettes off the computer monitor.
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AGAIN i apologize for having mentioned a topic that so seriously disturbed you, but if you actually READ what i worte i put underneath my comment "oh, you dont? then why do it here?"
I did read through what you said, several times actually just to make sure I was reading it right. It was not something I would have expected from you.
"Oh, you don't? Then why do it here?" <----- This strongly implies that I'm doing such things here on the forum. It's clear as day to me... you're saying that I wouldn't do these horrible things in real life, and yet I do these horrible things on the forum. They're your words.
As far as your apology goes, I'm sorry but your apology rings hollow. You didn't mention a topic that disturbs me. You insulted me, and you insult me again by apologizing for the wrong thing.
@Goldir: The case is going to court. It may be months before we have an even clearer picture of what happened.
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im sorry zanzibar that you felt that that particular comment was solely directed at you. what i MEANT was that people in general wouldnt do that. I said you because i was replying to your post. it was NOT at all directed as a personal attack
im sorry that my apology rings hollow but what can i say, i got pissed off and i got over it. Case closed for me. I apologized casue i recognized the fact that i was being rude and i am truly sorry for that. But im not sorry for standing up for myself.
im really not a mean argumentative person :flowers: i promises
anywhos.....lets continue off of Goldir now :D
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Standing up for yourself is just fine, but you attacked me when I was not attacking you so I'm sorry if I don't see it that way.
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anywho, i havent heard much of anything enw about this whole ordeal. i wonder if the kid was ok, and i want to know what they did to the policemen
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UPDATE on UCLA COPS use of Tasers:
Three UCLA cops were recently given “Tazer Awards” for subduing a mental patient earlier this year! Way to go guys, treat yourself to an extra donut! Maybe if you’re lucky Santa will bring you some quadriplegic kids to zap!
~~Source (http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=8040)
The Meritorious Service/Taser Award was presented to Officers Joseph Eubank, Ethan Shear, Kevin Kay and Dan Jermansen for successfully subduing a patient without harm after he threatened staff at the Neuropsychiatric Hospital with metal scissors
~~Source (http://www.today.ucla.edu/people/applause-061107/)
I'm starting to really hate these Policemen.
~~Datruth
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UPDATE on UCLA COPS use of Tasers:
Three UCLA cops were recently given “Tazer Awards” for subduing a mental patient earlier this year! Way to go guys, treat yourself to an extra donut! Maybe if you’re lucky Santa will bring you some quadriplegic kids to zap!
~~Source (http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=8040)
The Meritorious Service/Taser Award was presented to Officers Joseph Eubank, Ethan Shear, Kevin Kay and Dan Jermansen for successfully subduing a patient without harm after he threatened staff at the Neuropsychiatric Hospital with metal scissors
~~Source (http://www.today.ucla.edu/people/applause-061107/)
I'm starting to really hate these Policemen.
~~Datruth
Well what would you have done if a mentally ill patient went on the rampage with a pair of sharp scissors? In this case I don't see the problem. Maybe being given an award for it is a bit silly though :P I'm assuming they didn't shoot him multiple times though... and then handcuff and shoot again.
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I agree, I would rather see someone TAZERed than shot if they are a risk to themselves or the public. The award is rediculous unless it is common place that the police would shoot to kill in such circumstances?
I'm starting to really hate these Policemen.
Ahhh, well, that just comes naturally to me.
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i have two instances with the police that im sure everyone would like to hear, and yes ones got phisical abuse in it, yano the juicy stuff. but i'd like to hear some of yours first. especially datruth i know he has had some kind of run in with the law
My boyfriend was coming back from Alabama after a weekend long instrument flight training clinic. Yes, he's a flight instructor. Boyfriend also happens to have dark hair, a beard, is generally middle eastern looking in his physical apprearance, and was driving our old car which is covered with (my) bumper stickers. On a rural road in Alabama he was stopped by a cop. The cop approaches the car, and tells boyfriend to get out of the car. Boyfriend asks cop if there's a problem. Cop tells boyfriend again to get out of the car. Boyfriend does as he's told, and gets out of the car, at which point he is pushed against the side of the car and frisked. Cop then proceeds to rip the car apart, never telling boyfriend why he was stopped, what he's looking for.. nothing. With boyfriends belongings now out on the side of the road, his suitcase open, the cop tells boyfriend he was speeding and tells him the fine is 100 dollars (cash only please), and never does write boyfriend a ticket.
The cop was probably looking for drugs, and figured he'd stop this sort of hippy looking guy from out-of-state, be a hero by making a big drug bust of a few grams of pot, and was royally po'd when he found he'd wasted his time coming up with absolutely nothing. I'm sure the 100 dollar "fine" went right into his own pocket.
When boyfriend gets home and relays this to me, I tell him he has to follow through with a complaint against the cop. His response, "Tell who? And tell them what?" No witnesses, no citation issued.
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HMMMM, I wonder what would have happened had he refused to hand over the cash until a ticket was written.
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Police are .......on second thought I am not going to jump up on my soap box, I will however share a comedic look at a sickening reality.
Does this make you laugh ? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=xeOaTpYl8mE)
Here is another questionable act of police, and for their efforts they get a paid vacation.
http://www.local6.com/news/10404890/detail.html
http://www.gothamgazette.com/blogs/wonkster/2006/11/26/the-death-of-sean-bell/
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HMMMM, I wonder what would have happened had he refused to hand over the cash until a ticket was written.
It all depends on whether you're willing to take a beating for what you believe in.
I've done it before.
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If it happened in the UK, I'd risk the beating, although it's unlikely to happen. In the US, they're armed with tazers and guns and other weaponry. Not worth the risk. Just a thought, but maybe the fact that cops are armed so heavily in the US is why there's so much abuse?
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If it happened in the UK, I'd risk the beating, although it's unlikely to happen. In the US, they're armed with tazers and guns and other weaponry. Not worth the risk. Just a thought, but maybe the fact that cops are armed so heavily in the US is why there's so much abuse?
You wouldn't do it in Alabama. The cop would beat you half to death then claim that you attacked him. I'm not sure what the right thing to do would be in that situation except to pay the bribe. Any sane alternative would involve hefty lawyer fees.
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If it happened in the UK, I'd risk the beating, although it's unlikely to happen. In the US, they're armed with tazers and guns and other weaponry. Not worth the risk. Just a thought, but maybe the fact that cops are armed so heavily in the US is why there's so much abuse?
Yea xordan... we kill here.... can't do much protesting, sorry bud :)
~~Datruth
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HMMMM, I wonder what would have happened had he refused to hand over the cash until a ticket was written.
Considering that he was alone with a cop who had a weapon, who had just had him take every single thing out of his car, who could have arrested him on just about any trumped up charge, I don't think he felt was in any position to argue with the cop really.
As zanzibar said, the cop would beat probably have beaten boyfriend half to death then claimed that boyfriend attacked him. And yes, anyother sane alternative would have involved attorney fees, unpaid time off work, etc.
Corrected per comment below. :)
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As Xordan said, the cop would beat probably have beaten boyfriend half to death then claimed that boyfriend attacked him. And yes, anyother sane alternative would have involved attorney fees, unpaid time off work, etc.
I said that, actually.
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@zorbels: Kalika said that my behaviour is akin to going around burning Bibles and insulting people in their places of worship. I'd say that's a pretty vicious insult to make.
Or you are being overly dramatic about it. I don't think she meant it in the way you think. I do beleive it was an example to defend her post, not comparing you personally to burning bibles and such.
If you can't handle people disagreeing with you, then the internet isn't for you. Period.
Whether you can take disagreeing or not has nothing to do with playing with the internet. Period. I for the record can actually handle that people have different points of views.
Do I insult people personally as a matter of course? No, though I see a lot of other people doing it.
Yes in a cleaver indirect way at times you do. I see you doing it all the time.
Do I defend my opinions on things? Yes, as does everybody else.
Yes, but we established this already, at least my point of view on it. I believe I put in my last post "you are relentless when you feel your right". So defend away but sometimes I think you take it further than it should go.
If I feel that I've been unfairly and personally insulted, will I point it out? In many situations yes, and it would be unfair to expect me not to.
I know because you seem to be insulted quite easily. I think you are possibly the easiest to insult on the forums Zanzibar. It doesn't take much, as Phinehas said in another thread .... you are predictable.
And no. Don't post back saying that everybody agrees with you. If you sincerely believe that, then you have problems.
Now this is just grasping at straws to egg me on. I don't need everyone to agree with me nor am I ignorant enough to think that everyone does. This is my own opinoin Zanzibar and it is formed from what I hear from others and see/hear from you.
As far as people posting in the threads I contribute to, the reason a person will stay away is for lack of interest. Honestly, all you have to do is look at my post count and you'll see the proof that people are willing to have discussions with me. It's easy as long as long as you're respectful.
This is why your post count is high, posting meaningless one liners .....
Click here to view one liner (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26068.msg292479#msg292479)
and ....
Phinehas and his opinion [HIS OPINION not everyone's in the thread]: I celebrate Christmas for what it truly is, the celebration of the birth of the Son of God on Earth.
It doesn't take a genuis to see this is his belief. For some reason you feel the need to argue with him about this when it isn't even the topic of the thread [the Christmas shopping thread] .....
"No one knows what day Jesus Christ was born on.
Was it really nessassery to have to bring that up in a thread about holiday cheer? That is why your post count is high. There are tons upon tons of these examples scattered through out the forums.
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Or you are being overly dramatic about it.
Or maybe I just expected better from her. She wrote what she wrote, and I don't see any possible way to read it as anything but a vicious comment directed at me personally. I don't think there's anything more about that particular event to discuss though, so perhaps for everyone's sake we should let it drop? It won't change the way I feel about what she said, but I don't think we'll get anywhere by discussing it the way we are.
I know because you seem to be insulted quite easily. I think you are possibly the easiest to insult on the forums Zanzibar. It doesn't take much, as Phinehas said in another thread .... you are predictable.
People do actually insult me here more often than they insult other people - it's not that I feel insulted more easily. If it gives the appearance that I take offense at the drop of a hat, then I think you need to take a step back and look at things again. Now, there are a few reasons for it so you're right in saying there's a predictable pattern. There's a precident for insulting me and I'm more active and aggressive than other members. I've also unapologetically butted heads with various regulars. It adds up - I put myself in risky positions, and a bit of a culture has formed around it. However, that's very different from saying that I take offense easily, and I do not agree with the suggestion that I take offense easily.
I will point out how someone has attempted to insult me in certain discussions - but it's not because I feel hurt. It's because I think that personal attacks degrade the quality of the thread. That's probably another factor in why you have the impression that you do.
This is why your post count is high, posting meaningless one liners ..... (link)
Uh, what? http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26605.msg299733#msg299733
Phinehas and his opinion [HIS OPINION not everyone's in the thread]: I celebrate Christmas for what it truly is, the celebration of the birth of the Son of God on Earth.
Yes, but Phinehas stated his opinion as "the true meaning of Christmas". My sensibilities were upset by that, because it meant that what Christmas means to me is actually a lie.
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It won't change the way I feel about what she said, but I don't think we'll get anywhere by discussing it the way we are.
Your right. You having an answer for everything but no suggestions on how to fix it isn't going to get us anywhere. Anyway I said my peace and I am fine with what I think about the situation. I see it how I see it no matter how many pretty words you add it will not change that I see you starting conflict when it doesn't have to be there.
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/me throws a bucket of water over you all to put out the flames
:love:
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It won't change the way I feel about what she said, but I don't think we'll get anywhere by discussing it the way we are.
Your right. You having an answer for everything but no suggestions on how to fix it isn't going to get us anywhere. Anyway I said my peace and I am fine with what I think about the situation. I see it how I see it no matter how many pretty words you add it will not change that I see you starting conflict when it doesn't have to be there.
I don't think it's fair of you to accuse me of starting it, and I don't think it's fair of you to say that the conflict exists because I haven't prescribed a solution. I won't argue it with you, but I will point at posts I've already made. You've already responded to them so I hope there isn't need to respond to them again.
(link 1) (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26399.msg299622#msg299622)
(link 2) (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26399.msg299517#msg299517)
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Oh look this is me walking away from this conversation even though he is so desperately trying to keep me involved in it. Sorry Zanzibar I have wasted enough of my time. Your just going to pick and pick and well do what you do best and that's have conflict.
Thanks Idoru it worked for me, I am FREE! Conflict FREE! -------------=========zoomz
{Edit} If you see the truth as petty then so be it. Stop putting words in my mouth please. I never said you started it. Hence the "your being desprate in trying to keep this going" because you know I didn't say that either. I did however say that you start conflict out of the smallest little phrases, words, topics ... etc. Your sure love to keep conflict going though don't you as we can see right in this very thread. Is that any away to make it better?
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I'm not trying to keep you involved. You, however, keep making little petty statements - You've said that I'm desperate, that I'm picking and picking at your posts, how conflict is what I do best, that I'm easily insulted, that I have 'an answer for everything', how I hide behind pretty words, you said I 'started it', that I don't have a way to fix things....
Is this your way of trying to make things better?
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Thread warning #2. You guys are making this thread a bit of a mess, although I understand the need to keep replying over and over.
Stick to the topic. No more "she-said-he-said-about-me" please.
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If it happened in the UK, I'd risk the beating, although it's unlikely to happen. In the US, they're armed with tazers and guns and other weaponry. Not worth the risk. Just a thought, but maybe the fact that cops are armed so heavily in the US is why there's so much abuse?
You wouldn't do it in Alabama. The cop would beat you half to death then claim that you attacked him. I'm not sure what the right thing to do would be in that situation except to pay the bribe. Any sane alternative would involve hefty lawyer fees.
thats how i feel about guns. you make em and sell them adn someone is gonna mess up and get shot. no one would get shot if there were no guns :D
but i understand this is an idealistic perspective so meh
edit-oh and sorry to you too karyuu, i feel kinda like a hypocrite advocating peace and goodwill adn then i just kinda helped complicate things isntead :/ :flowers:
Kalika huggles Akaye for bein calmer than she is :flowers:
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Thread warning #2. You guys are making this thread a bit of a mess, although I understand the need to keep replying over and over.
Stick to the topic. No more "she-said-he-said-about-me" please.
I personally want to thank Karyuu for keeping this thread open, if i were to wager a guess, i'd say it would have been locked a while ago.
I don't know why, but it seems she is being very nice to us all (me especially), and i'd like to thank that gesture of kindness.
And i hope that if this thread does get out of line again, those posts can be deleted, and the thread can be allowed to stay alive, so as not to let one or 2 people, ruin the tragedy that has happened here.
Thank you again Karyuu :thumbup: :D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As for the Thread, I just wanna know one thing.
WHY DON'T COPS LOAD GUNS WITH RUBBER BULLETS?!
Can someone please explain to me why Police in America.... of all police lol ;).... have guns fillled with real bullets?
Why can't we just use Rubber bullets all the time?
Wouldn't that save thousands of innocent Lives, who were taken by accident?
I mean what's the downside?
~~Datruth
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Rubber Bullets Don't Get Rubber Stamp
LONDON, May 24, 2002
More than just a riot deterrent. (AP)
(AP) Some types of rubber bullets used by police to restrain unruly protesters kill and maim too often to be considered a safe method of crowd control, new research concludes.
CBS (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/24/health/main510084.shtml)
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[...] so as not to let one or 2 people, ruin the tragedy that has happened here.
I find that phrasing quite hilarious.
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Rubber Bullets Don't Get Rubber Stamp
LONDON, May 24, 2002
More than just a riot deterrent. (AP)
(AP) Some types of rubber bullets used by police to restrain unruly protesters kill and maim too often to be considered a safe method of crowd control, new research concludes.
CBS (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/24/health/main510084.shtml)
Thank you soo much Bilbous for that Link.
I read the Article and Basically it says Rubber bullets are actually less safe than you would think, causing deaths as well.
I also read in the Article though, the Kind of Plastic Bullets that Northern Ireland uses is very safe:
“They've been used 166 times in Northern Ireland, twice in mainland Britain, and there have been no deaths associated with the use of those,”
Why not then use those? I'm just looking for a good Alternative to Guns, Tasers, and now rubber bullets.
These Plastic ones are probably the Key.
~~Datruth
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166 uses is not a great sample size. I'd say that the jury is still out on them.
Even bean-bag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible_baton_round) guns have caused deaths.
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166 uses is not a great sample size. I'd say that the jury is still out on them.
Even bean-bag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible_baton_round) guns have caused deaths.
I agree with you... it doesn't make it the difinitive answer.....
But i'm kind of desperate here, What do we have currently that's non lethal, yet powerfull enough to stop attacks?
Is there anything you would suggest Bilbous, that maybe you've heard of?
I mean my friend suggested mace, but i said that mace is no good at long range, so we need to take into account that this weapon will need to have a good range on it.
What about those Police Batons? Throw them for range lol ;) ;D
~~Datruth
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Nothing I know of. Proper training and oversight would help.
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But i'm kind of desperate here, What do we have currently that's non lethal, yet powerfull enough to stop attacks?
how about a whole lotta :love:
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But i'm kind of desperate here, What do we have currently that's non lethal, yet powerfull enough to stop attacks?
how about a whole lotta :love:
Lol If only your :love: would stop the badguys dead in their tracks with thier stolen merchandise.
Rather it stops the good ones ;)
~~~~~~~~~~~~
And yea bilbous, oversight would fix alot of these problems, but who oversees the overseers, it seems that right now, the Higher ups are the ones who are currupt, and they are the ones who need the oversight.
Anyone else got any ideas?
~~~~~
Think i found one, check this out guys:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_range_acoustic_device
Tell me what you think.
Oh and <3 Kalika lol ;) :D
~~Datruth
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The problems start with the police, not the tools. If a bad police officer wants to mess somebody up, they're going to do it one way or another.
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The problems start with the police, not the tools. If a bad police officer wants to mess somebody up, they're going to do it one way or another.
We can't give them the tools to Kill someone and BLAME The weapon.
Officers, with their hands alone, will be responsible for the kill.
But if they use a weapon, they'll say, UH OH , it was the weapons fault, not mine.
NO excuses, i want none, We give them a weapon that CANNOT kill so if there is a death, IT'S ON THEIR HANDS!!
To take a life is a bad thing.
To take a life and have no justice, is inconcievable.
To those Cops who think Guns can shield thier evil ways, we give a message today, We will remove all excuses and expose the dirty cops for what they truly are, Filth.
~~Datruth
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There is no such thing as a weapon that does not kill.
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If an officer decides to handle a situation with the use of force, then that's the deciding factor in my book.
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There is no such thing as a weapon that does not kill.
Yet there are weapons, which when used, can be deteremined to Kill if Used Excessivly.
For example, A Baton WILL NEVER kill a Human.
It Can kill a human.
But if we see a Police Officer has killed a human with is police baton, that police officer will likely go to Jail for Police Brutality.
Such weapons, like the one i just gave, CAN KILL, but only in Circumstances where the Cop can Clearly be seen as the Perpetrator.
WHEREAS with a Gun, a cop could have accidently killed someone, by shooting a running suspect, accidently hitting him in the Head.
~~Datruth
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I don't know, if you get hit hard enough in the right place, you could be killed. The floating rib for instance, or the jugular. I think the temple could do it as well.
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As Blondie said "Accidents never happen in a perfect world" which is to say that anything can cause a death under the right circumstances. Club a guy in the head could cause a blood clot to form which causes a brain aneurysm. Cop has a peanut butter cup and gets peanut oil on his nightstick which he then uses to restrain a protester who is fatally allergic to peanuts. Smack a guy in the side and rupture his spleen.
A net gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netgun) might work against unarmed suspects.
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O.k You guys are being OVERLY outrageous.
You're Peater butter Claim Bilbous would never hold up in court.
I'm talking about using sound logic and finding a weapon that DOES NOT KILL without intent(99% of the time), such as the baton i spoke of.
Making Artificial Exceptions to everything doesn't help anyone point lol, and makes you look silly :P
Now help me out here guys, Did anyone look at the Sound thing i provdied you, with the Wiki Link?
What do you think about that?
~~Datruth
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The thing is, a police officer doesn't have to kill anyone in order to be out of line.
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Certainly the PB was unlikely I was just trying to show that accidental death can be caused. I don't like that thingy you mentions I don't think the government should be in the business of maiming people which is a possible side effect (permanent deafness). I don't really see how it would be generally useful anyway.
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All cops should take a course from Croc Dundee, He was able to stop a 1000lb animal with his finger mind thingy :D
That is about the only non leathal weapon I can think of.
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Also, what's wrong with learning Kung fu, Tae kwon do, or Ju jitsu?
If you can take down a guy without having to shoot them, why not.
And someone Please teach me the Kiss of the Dragon, that move is awesome lol. ;)
/me takes out my toothpick
~~Datruth
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Also, what's wrong with learning Kung fu, Tae kwon do, or Ju jitsu?
If you can take down a guy without having to shoot them, why not.
And someone Please teach me the Kiss of the Dragon, that move is awesome lol. ;)
/me takes out my toothpick
~~Datruth
Dont forget the vulcan death grip :D
Edit: to add
Another Taser investigation underway in Vancouver Canada.
A man was ejected from a courthouse, once outside police tasered him repetedly and brought him back in. He was released 4 hours later.
I just saw this on CTV Newsnet.
When I find links I will post them.
Edit: To add
Here are more Taser related articles from Canada;
Mother questions Taser use on son (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2004/07/29/bc_taser20040729.html) A mother from Prince Edward Island says she doesn't want an apology from Vancouver Police following the recent death of her son after he was shot with a Taser.
No charges in Bagnell death (http://www.cameronward.com/commentaries/000116.shtml) This year alone, 66 people, including four Canadians, have died after being Tasered.
Dead mans family sues (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060623/bagnell_taser_060623/20060623?hub=Canada)
Better Taser training needed, says B.C. report (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1096550888449_91960088)
Is a Taser enough force?” (Part 2) (http://www.urbanvancouver.com/node/1961)
N.B. police probe Taser death (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2005/05/06/taser-nb050506.html)
Taser FAQs (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/tasers/)
Human rights group condemns use of Taser on teen (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2006/09/20/nb-taser.html)
Judge condemns Edmonton officer who used Taser on teen (http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2006/09/06/taser-ab.html)
Victim's wife, daughter testify at Taser inquest (http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2006/11/14/bc-taser-sundhu.html) The widow of a 41-year-old Surrey man who died in RCMP custody last year said officers did nothing to try to calm her husband down before using a Taser gun on him.
I understand this is a lot to read, but it gives a much better understanding of the whole 'taser' issue world wide. Media coverage is most often a misrepresentation of the true facts (in regard to Taser usage). In one article, the media stated that in 2005 after a man died from a taser stun, that it was the first death linked to the use of tasers.
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That's a Great Post Laragorn,
Basically, IF YOU are still a skeptic about tasers, Laragorn has given you all the info you need to be wary of them.
Tasers kill, the fact is plane and simple, they cannot be used as effective Non lethal Devices by Cops, because in essence they are Lethal.
I recommend the Plastic Bullets Used by Ireland, They are non lethal, and an effective means of control.
~~Datruth
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First I've heard of plastic bullets. There is no way that they're a regularly used thing here. No way. Just batons.
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First I've heard of plastic bullets. There is no way that they're a regularly used thing here. No way. Just batons.
I also read in the Article though, the Kind of Plastic Bullets that Northern Ireland uses is very safe:
“They've been used 166 times in Northern Ireland, twice in mainland Britain, and there have been no deaths associated with the use of those,”
I never said they were regularly used, I noted they were used 166 times there, and not a single death occured, all this was discussed last page.
I think they would make the great alternative we all need. Batons don't have range, although are non lethal for the most part.
Here in America though, Cops carry: Guns, Pepper Spray, Tasers(occasionally), Handcuffs, bullets, a whole mess of stuff.
And yes, they do shoot to kill lol :)
~~Datruth
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Plastic bullet were used during the 'troubles' in Northern Ireland. They do still kill. if you get hit in the head or neck I have no doubt that they would kill someone.
From 1973 to 1981, over 42,000 plastic bullets were fired in Northern Ireland. Fourteen people were killed by plastic bullet impacts, including nine children. Most of the deaths were allegedly caused by the British security services misusing the weapon, firing at close range and at chest or head level rather than targeting below the waist.
Wiki Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_bullet)
As with other 'non-lethal' weapons, if misused they still kill.
List of deaths from plastic bullets (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/rubberplasticbullet.htm)
Some background on usage (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1460116.stm)
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Plastic bullet were used during the 'troubles' in Northern Ireland. They do still kill. if you get hit in the head or neck I have no doubt that they would kill someone.
From 1973 to 1981, over 42,000 plastic bullets were fired in Northern Ireland. Fourteen people were killed by plastic bullet impacts, including nine children. Most of the deaths were allegedly caused by the British security services misusing the weapon, firing at close range and at chest or head level rather than targeting below the waist.
Wiki Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_bullet)
As with other 'non-lethal' weapons, if misused they still kill.
List of deaths from plastic bullets (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/rubberplasticbullet.htm)
Some background on usage (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1460116.stm)
Idoru, now look what you have done :(
I have to find another alternative now lol ;D
This is very hard work, how do you scare someone into submission, with a weapon that hurts but rarely kills.
.....I need help !!! :'( :'(
Anyone else got any ides, No tasers, No Guns, No Rubber bullets.
Plastic bullets are still o.k though... we will look for an alternative though lol :)
Interesting Article to read
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,55337,00.html
"It is a tough stretch to envision a scenario for the non-lethal application of a nuclear bomb, yet we and the Soviets fought the Cold War almost entirely with nuclear weapons. And, at least after the long-term effects of exposure to radiation were understood and taken into account in testing, we never killed a soul," the panel member said.
"All those latter-day nuclear bomb tests weren't really tests -- the science was proven. They were the strategic use of the most deadly weapons ever invented to impress and give pause to a sworn enemy who might be considering an attack.
"The amazing thing was it worked brilliantly. Nuclear deterrence was the most successful enforcer of peace between superpowers in the history of mankind."
~~Datruth
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I missed that last few pages. Sorry. It was just the mention of Ireland in your post I noticed. I figured that you ment that plastic bullets were used througout Ireland... Bullets are just a bad idea. They originaly designed to kill people.
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Interesting Article to read
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,55337,00.html
"It is a tough stretch to envision a scenario for the non-lethal application of a nuclear bomb, yet we and the Soviets fought the Cold War almost entirely with nuclear weapons. And, at least after the long-term effects of exposure to radiation were understood and taken into account in testing, we never killed a soul," the panel member said.
"All those latter-day nuclear bomb tests weren't really tests -- the science was proven. They were the strategic use of the most deadly weapons ever invented to impress and give pause to a sworn enemy who might be considering an attack.
"The amazing thing was it worked brilliantly. Nuclear deterrence was the most successful enforcer of peace between superpowers in the history of mankind."
~~Datruth
Yeah right, never killed a soul ???
Just a little thought to ponder... atmospheric nuclear tests ? Where has all the nuclear radiation gone ? Is a couple hundred years of nuclear radiation in our atmosphere going to harm no one ?
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That probably refers to people killed in the direct blast of the weapons.
Aswell as those who will have contracted cancer and other genetic disorders due to fallout, there are those who will have died as a result of being involved in the manufacture and maintenance of the weapons.
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That probably refers to people killed in the direct blast of the weapons.
Aswell as those who will have contracted cancer and other genetic disorders due to fallout, there are those who will have died as a result of being involved in the manufacture and maintenance of the weapons.
Yea, it doesn't mean actual deaths, it means Direct Deaths as a result.
I think we handled the cold war well, and i liked the way the article portrayed it.
Did anyone else read it?
~~Datruth