PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: zanzibar on February 24, 2007, 09:58:57 pm
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In this thread (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27814.0), I posed the following question:
"How can Planeshift be designed to weed out or discourage morons like the ones I encountered tonight?"
After thinking about it, I arrived at what may be the only answer. Remove duels from the game entirely. Allow guild wars, but the /challenge command should be removed from the game. Why? Because it's been made crystal clear that the only reason these idiots hang around is for the duels. They've put dueling on an incredibly tall pedestal, and without it, they'll leave the game. With the recent changes designed to prevent cheating, we've already seen a bunch of them leave. So let's get rid of the rest of these idiots by taking out dueling all together!
Their idea of roleplaying is killing people at the drop of a hat if they feel they have to protect their "honour". In reality, they're just trash talking kids who want to cause trouble. In many cases, they're also duel spamming and harassing people over spawns. So it really doesn't have anything to do with roleplaying. Not only do they attack anyone who looks at them the wrong way or gets between them and their mob, but they'll /shout insults for half an hour at anyone who declines the challenge. They encourage others to be like them, making the problem even worse. There also seems to be this emphasis on "respect". Allow me to quote:
why dont you ask some of the top dulist around here firdt of all if you want respect
This obsession about respect is trashy. The roleplaying of these individuals is shallow and stupid. I talked about it in this thread (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27611.0) as well. To them, roleplaying is just used to disguise their true intentions.
Their goal is to destroy the game. They are a pest and infection that needs to be killed. They only care about "being number 1 in the server". They want nothing less than to turn Planeshift into Runescape or Counterstrike. If we take dueling out of the game, they will have no motivation for playing. They will leave, and the quality of the playerbase will skyrocket.
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I actually agree. I had my doubts when I saw the title but the reasons are perfect.
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I actually agree. I had my doubts when I saw the title but the reasons are perfect.
Thanks. Also, if people do want to fight other players, they'll have to join a guild. Which means they'll have to behave themselves or else their guild leader might kick them out of the guild in order to protect the guild's reputation.
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Aye, and after the rediculous rping I saw earlier-first friday night I've been on in a long time-the community really needs weeding out.
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Removing duels is an OOC measure for an OOC problem.
There should be an IC solution for that, like guards or government laws on duelling that will bring punishments to those who abuse it.
For now the best option against OOC duelling is something called "Auto-refuse challenges"
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Heheh. Playing things like Endless Forest (and MB) is going to make me side with the limited-combat crowd. I've no idea what the other devs think on the subject :) I do wish it was one of the last things to concentrate on.
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Removing duels is an OOC measure for an OOC problem.
There should be an IC solution for that, like guards or government laws on duelling that will bring punishments to those who abuse it.
For now the best option against OOC duelling is something called "Auto-refuse challenges"
An IC solution for an OOC problem? I don't think so.
Heheh. Playing things like Endless Forest (and MB) is going to make me side with the limited-combat crowd. I've no idea what the other devs think on the subject :) I do wish it was one of the last things to concentrate on.
Games like that and Molecular Blue prove that Planeshift can survive without duels.
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Hack and Slash (Roleplaying? Where?) Games are not something I like. If I want some action prefer to headshotting to hack n' slash. Anyway making duels through /me, /my, etc. is quite a challenge, but when well done and without godmodding, for those with enough imagination, they're much more interesting than the way current duels are.
As I said, this is a question of the community. If one is not willing to involve in OOC duelling, change the PvP confirmation option to "Never Accept". Now if you wish to put all duels as IC, change it to "Always Accept". And if someone bothers too much about duelling, ignore_list
Another simpler option is to change the default setting of PvP to "Never Accept"
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Hack and Slash (Roleplaying? Where?) Games are not something I like. If I want some action prefer to headshotting to hack n' slash. Anyway making duels through /me, /my, etc. is quite a challenge, but when well done and without godmodding, for those with enough imagination, they're much more interesting than the way current duels are.
As I said, this is a question of the community. If one is not willing to involve in OOC duelling, change the PvP confirmation option to "Never Accept". Now if you wish to put all duels as IC, change it to "Always Accept". And if someone bothers too much about duelling, ignore_list
Another simpler option is to change the default setting of PvP to "Never Accept"
This doesn't solve the problem. It doesn't even begin to touch it.
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If we do that then they'll stay, happy as larry that they can fight each other. That solves nothing.
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If we do that then they'll stay, happy as larry that they can fight each other. That solves nothing.
Right. They're ruining the game in more way than just sending people duels, and they need to be gotten rid of. They need to be made to leave.
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If we do that then they'll stay, happy as larry that they can fight each other. That solves nothing.
Right. They're ruining the game in more way than just sending people duels, and they need to be gotten rid of. They need to be made to leave.
Bah! Duel system is flawed anyway, here comes more 1% to add to the 98% that stopped playing Planeshift...
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Good. if that one percent that leaves are the 'duelers' then all the better.
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While I mostly agree with the first post, if you get rid of duelling, I can't help but imagine all these people you're hoping to force out of just forming guilds and having constant guild wars with each other.
This might alleviate some of the problem as it takes away the possibility of "these idiots" duel spamming others, but the opportunity to ruin other's RP is still there....
I don't have a solution, however...at least not yet.
Bod
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But characters should be able to kill eachother if planeshift is to meet its goal. To be a realistic virtual world. There needs to be real consiquences for the characters, yes. I would agree with a temporary removal of duals untill there is a working AI for gaurds and a huge death realm etc etc.
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A huge death realm could make a difference, but I'm not sure it would solve the problem all together. That said, I like your idea of disabling duels until the death realm is big enough to make death significant. If nothing else, it will give Planeshift time to lick its wounds.
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Well the thing is that 1. A huge death realm would put them off dualing in the first place for the risk of losing and 2. Even if they win they will be killed by the gaurds so dualing would be a lose, lose situation.
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Well the thing is that 1. A huge death realm would put them off dualing in the first place for the risk of losing and 2. Even if they win they will be killed by the gaurds so dualing would be a lose, lose situation.
Then why have duels in the game at all? Why not write the settings to say that everyone is supposed to work together to defend Yliakum from invading forces marching out of the labyrinth? (Oh, wait, the settings already say that!)
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Hmm dueling is OOC and should be removed, at least temporarily. Have I got that right? Does it then follow that if spawn camping is OOC then spawns should be removed? Then we come to the awkward way of interacting with npc's which is clearly OOC, perhaps we should remove the npc's too. I am not seriously advocating either of these actions I am just wondering where we stop once we start hacking away little bits to cure a problem of human nature. I do not have a real problem with the duelers myself as I am perfectly happy to move on and go do something else if annoying people crowd me in the game. Perhaps people who do have a problem could look at themselves to see if they are doing anything to exacerbate (http://m-w.com/dictionary/exacerbate) the problem. 'Water off a ducks back' and all that flotsam.
Most of the dueling I have seen has been in the DR anyway. I actually think the spawning is a bigger problem.
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I don't really care about dueling one way or the other. I was never big on competitive gameplay, even in FPSes I prefer cooperative mode.
But it seems to me completely removing dueling is a bit OOC, and pretty extreme.
*sigh*
So many issues would be solved if we just had a functioning justice system...
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Hmm dueling is OOC and should be removed, at least temporarily. Have I got that right?
No.
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If you ask me its a silly idea, if you have a problem with dueling, then don't duel, its not like its forced on anyone.. Really, just because people fight all the time, its called ignore it, god forbid it is rp-like. Psst, wanna know a secret?... PS will never be 80% IC. :)
However I agree with emeraldfool when it comes to needing a better justice system.
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If you ask me its a silly idea, if you have a problem with dueling, then don't duel, its not like its forced on anyone.. Really, just because people fight all the time, its called ignore it, god forbid it is rp-like. Psst, wanna know a secret?... PS will never be 80% IC. :)
You got things out of order. You're supposed to read through the thread and THEN make a post.
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I get the point zanz, you want dueling removed, because its a flawed system, and a bunch of other things that would just be a waste of time reading. Frankly heres your answer, pre alpha game, dueling will continue to evolve, and change until the devs feel it is at the best it will be.
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I get the point zanz, you want dueling removed, because its a flawed system, and a bunch of other things that would just be a waste of time reading. Frankly heres your answer, pre alpha game, dueling will continue to evolve, and change until the devs feel it is at the best it will be.
Read the first post in the thread.
[ No insults please. --Karyuu ]
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This all comes down to people abusing the system. It's the excuse I've heard for a number of features being added "People will abuse it". The fact of the matter is that people will abuse whatever system you create, if you remove dueling you'll just have more shouting jackasses yelling about KSers. Then maybe we should remove the chat system, to get rid of them as well.
Dueling, IMO, is fine, if you don't want to fight click the magical no button. It's OOC to kill someone because they're attacking your magically respawning enemy anyways. If they spam invites, Laanx will get them, and it'll probably get a bit tiresome being sent there continuously.
Finally, zanzibar, and try not to take too much offence to this, you have a very abrasive personality. I wouldn't be surprised if you managed to piss him off to the point of insults, you're fairly witty, and being on the other side of that is never fun. However, just because your insults were worded better, doesn't make them any less of a insult.
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I see your point Zanz, but I disagree with the solution. As has probably been suggested a miilion point five times, dying needs to mean something. A larger death realm would help, but it would soon become autopilot to get out just like the current one and cause even more lost newbs. Some of these lost newbs might turn out to be good rpers but would give up on the game: frustrated that they can't get out of the DR and some will start slamming the forum again with "help, I'm stuck" posts.
Death needs to hurt. It needs consequences that are extremely painful. Some examples to discourage /challenge
- Loosing one's inventory on the ground would be quite a blow and a gift to the conqueror.
- Being reborn could cause stat degredation (permanent until retrained).
- There could be some random negative effect to skills, inventory, stats.
- Rebirth could cause temporary stat/skill modifiers (ie. INT drops to 20 for a game hour).
There are tons of possibilities and I'm sure you just thought of three... :woot:
But my point is, meaningless death caters to the LCD.
Araye
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Finally, zanzibar, and try not to take too much offence to this, you have a very abrasive personality. I wouldn't be surprised if you managed to piss him off to the point of insults, you're fairly witty, and being on the other side of that is never fun. However, just because your insults were worded better, doesn't make them any less of a insult.
Very true, though I didn't insult him. The chat log is actually pretty accurate. All I'll say besides that is that this isn't my personality in real life.:) link (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27822.msg317998#msg317998)
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Ok, look, i'm still not going back in the game but I keep (i believe you call it) 'trolling' these forums for lack of something more intresting to read. (Preamble aside i'm suprised i took this long to reply to some of the threads I've been seeing, cause wow.)...
First, if i was bitter & wanted to run the game down & cause problems etc I'd start campaigning for this idea & saying its praises...
In other words ideas like this can ruin the game.
#1-- To say that so many left because things cheats were countered is poretty presumptuous. While i admit many may have left because of that at the very same time, I would guess that an equal number left because of losing trias & weapons collected through hard effort, bargaining etc.
#2--"Their idea of roleplaying is killing people at the drop of a hat if they feel they have to protect their "honour"."--guess what? a lot of people actually are like that. in older times, moreso--what's that you say? they should just fight but not to the death? that's not suggested in many other threads? you haven't yourself posted in similar such threads?. next.
#3--"This obsession about respect is trashy." well that's certainly a disrespectful comment, but nevertheless: in most societies people treat those they have reason to fear as if they respect them. with good reason. That's life; if you want roleplay to be realistic that's one of the lame things from reality that has to be considered. (i'm gonna choose to ingore refference to the 'duelers are good roleplayers' thread...why? cause I'm sure everyone will already feel this post is plenty long.)
#4--"Their goal is to destroy the game. They are a pest and infection that needs to be killed. They only care about "being number 1 in the server". They want nothing less than to turn Planeshift into Runescape or Counterstrike. If we take dueling out of the game, they will have no motivation for playing. They will leave, and the quality of the playerbase will skyrocket." Hehe, first thing i said; if my goal was to ruin the game I'd support this idea... Look; the fact is the system isn't finished & we all know it. To disable dueling all around takes me back to your guggestion to lordraleigh in the "the winch--what are they thinking" thread--There's a great game for you of RP is a ll you want; it's called IRC--right? PS is supposed to encourage many different sorts of characters. including those who are percieve by most as stupid. So those running around lookin for fights, just like in reality, should have the ability to do so, as well as whatever consequences to deal with... from guards/law enforcement intervening against duelers who fight in the peaceful city of hydlaa [--which by the way is mentionned/suggested repeatedly on kiddie boards, which is where recent "peace in hydlaa" thread belongs imo] to general disRESPECT from the community at large...
#5--"Allow guild wars, but the /challenge command should be removed from the game. Why? " lemme address the 'why not' side. suddenly all stats & skills etc matter when me & my [imagined] guild have issue with mr noob & mr noob's guild, even tho none of them had any impact on me when just me & mr noob were having an issue? so groups of noobs can cobble together guilds for just that reason & then suddenly, not only "roleplaying is just used to disguise their true intentions." but guild formation too, and recruiting etc.. [5.1--"Thanks. Also, if people do want to fight other players, they'll have to join a guild. Which means they'll have to behave themselves or else their guild leader might kick them out of the guild in order to protect the guild's reputation."-- yea, unless the guilds are all about competition & fighting...but no one would ever do that[sarcasm]... as bodacher mentionned]
#6--"Heheh. Playing things like Endless Forest (and MB) is going to make me side with the limited-combat crowd. I've no idea what the other devs think on the subject I do wish it was one of the last things to concentrate on." This has some logic to it. A TEMPORARY restriction on pvp combat until more is done seems not unwise, if so many feel the way expressed of late, about duels. But it shouldn't be overlooked that to use MB as an example of why to remove an option is a clear example of regression, rather than progression... I'd probably be the first to say the version of planeshift i started on almost a year ago was my favorite version & since then, while many updates have had highlights, none are as fun as the earlier version seemed. Grass is greener i suppose... But regardless, i think the point is made.. [6.1--"Games like that and Molecular Blue prove that Planeshift can survive without duels."--yes they can survive...But oh, what's that, look; as one devopped & grew so was that option added.]
#7--"An IC solution for an OOC problem? I don't think so." Zanzi, here i think you are just trying a lil too hard to win the argument pettily... You know full well that even if someone's actions are motivated by ooc reasons their actions should still generally be treated as if in character
Noob: wow this is a cool game
ICRPer: of what game do you speak?
So the further development of systems to regulate combat & thus remain IC is a valid suggestion, a very valid one. IMO--this is where you acted at least as trashy as the people you are whining about.
#8--"Anyway making duels through /me, /my, etc. is quite a challenge, but when well done and without godmodding, for those with enough imagination, they're much more interesting than the way current duels are." a mosty true statement... What it's missing? --there is debate on the subject of defining godmodding.--There is a required/assumed grasp of english [yes i know there is one to rp in general, but you have to admit there is more required here.. just like if you speak another language enough to get by doesn't mean you speak enough to work in an electronics store speaking only that language].. There is conflict re combat phases [attack, block, dodge, counter, etc] There is conflict re use of dice. There is conflict between rp of stats & skills & effort/time invested in actual training of stats/skills. There is the matter of multiple attackers; depending on definitions of godmodding, skills, etc largest group numberwise would always win. More importantly with absolutely nothing set in place to regulate such a system the person can just do / me dies & goes thru deathrealm & returns rather than having to die at all... which causes a problem that the last replies in this thread explain could help with a solution...
#9--ok this I'll admit may be getting offtopic & more a personal thing; "This doesn't solve the problem. It doesn't even begin to touch it." Actually it does solve the problem. If everyone who feels as you do sets auto-decline challenge, suddenly everyone who feels like you no longer even recieves duel requests... If someone is bothering you, messaging you about it & you feel that's so ooc, you can ignore them. To deny any merit of the suggestion you quoted & dumped on, indicates to me that you won't be satisfied until duels are removed-- no matter how much more easily your own gripes could be resolved, than this imposition of removing an implemented feature--largely motivated by your electing yourself as a judge of people who should / should not play ps.
#9.1--"If we do that then they'll stay, happy as larry that they can fight each other. That solves nothing." hmmm it seems to solve the part where they bother you--or at least anyone who, like you takes issue with these people, but unlike you, is willing to follow the suggestion... or does it bother you when other people are happy?--or is it that people are happy as this 'larry' person to whom you reffer...
#9.2--"Right. They're ruining the game in more way than just sending people duels, and they need to be gotten rid of. They need to be made to leave." yea you need to be judge & jury of that. Yea they are ruining the game in more ways than the specific way this thread talks about & reasons not mentionned in this thread are exactly why dueling should be removed-- to stop these people from ruining the game in ways other than dueling. DUUUUUUHHHHHHH.....??????
#10-- Word to Narure, bilbous, Emeraldfool, & holdan. THey all make good points even if i repeated a few of them...
#11--"[ No insults please. --Karyuu ]" i'll try, but it hasn't been made very easy here... Zanzi, here are your replies to the last 3 posts in this thread:
"No."
"You got things out of order. You're supposed to read through the thread and THEN make a post."
"Read the first post in the thread."
You stopped even trying to reply to people making valid counters to what you had to say. & you definitely said nothing to rebut their counters, neither in these replies, nor in the first post you kept reffering back to. [if your issue is shouting make another thread dictating your official judgment & imposed opinion on that.. removing duels won't stop people from shouting about you when you give them half an excuse] I'm trying not to be insulting, but it's hard to say anything about what you say in this thread [especially th last 3 posts] without doing so... Maybe you should think a little more about exactly who may not belong.--exactly who in reality is a trash talking kid & wants to cause trouble... exactly which"idiot"s people would favor getting "rid of"... If it were put to a vote --not that anything ever is-- I would presume that more would be in favor of keeping duels or temporarily suspending them until law enforcement is established, than removing duels alltogether... Moreover I think you have overestimated just how much reason/right you would have to deem yourself as "being number 1 in the server" with regards to whose opinion matters or whose suggestion has validity/merit...
[PS; out-of-game bug to report.. when i tried to post it says 12 new replies were posted while i was typing... & just for clarification I am not modifying the above based on those 3 posts. but i will add here:--Word John80sk....And Zanzi, if hte chat log posted was so accurate why am i confused by your apparent frustration at "They only care about "being number 1 in the server"." & yet in the other thread to which you reffer, when someone said:
"No surprise you KSing off a lady....the version of events that reached my ears was far different than the nonsense you posted above. Oh, and Hideaki is no noob, though he was defending the IC wife of an allied guild leader, as per his oath to do so(whether she be right or wrong).
LOL.
But yes, in closing, KSer's suck.
PS: I'm told that you told him you were "The top duelist"."
and your only reply was:
"It wasn't kill stealing. You cannot own a spawn."
so no denying that you said that?--then you put that in your original post in the thread, implying it bothers you... Now you claim the logs are aaccurate, even tho in your own words in first thread you prface the 'log' by saying
"Here's the chat log in its original* form.
*highly editted"
FFS dude.]
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For some reason Andrew Jackson constantly comes to mind when I read this thread...
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With the recent changes designed to prevent cheating, we've already seen a bunch of them leave.
Is this cheating the timed attacks, reacting to stance changes, etc. .... or was it the instant-kill thing (I think that may still be present in the combat system)!?!
Their idea of roleplaying is killing people at the drop of a hat if they feel they have to protect their "honour".
Some of them I guess!?
Not only do they attack anyone who looks at them the wrong way or gets between them and their mob, but they'll /shout insults for half an hour at anyone who declines the challenge.
Now you seem to be trying to pin the behavior of the some noobs who want to bug you with PVP on ALL those who've enjoyed dueling for it's fun (rather than for the ability to harass people).
Zanzibar, the behavior of an idiotic minority does NOT represent the behavior of ALL those who like dueling.
I enjoy dueling... and if you come to a spawn point and take the mob I'm camping (though I usually run around more)... I either wait for it to respawn, laugh at you IC, mumble something about how "I have to stop daydreaming" or go find another mob. -- Additionally... almost all RP-related duels I get in ... are from other people challenging me. That alone contradicts the thing you seem to be implying about EVERYONE who likes dueling.
As much as there seems to be a few who've put dueling on a pedestal, there's equally been a few who seem to be saying "if you enjoy RP and/or are good at it.. you CANNOT enjoy dueling".
If you get rid of dueling, it's not going to stop people being abusive when they THINK that you've 'stolen' their kill (which is what seems to have been the catalyst for all this anyway Zanzibar)... they'll still shout, still be abusive, etc.
BUT... that said, I won't deny there are plenty of fools who abuse it... have weak RP as an excuse to duel... and some who don't even say anything and just try attacking you...
So I can understand many reasons that dueling can be annoying.
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My take on this:
A: Dueling goes against the settings, where it is stated that there is not a great deal of hostility.
B: Dueling is not realistic in that there is no punishment for killing someone.
C: Death is supposed to be rare.
D: Dueling and killing are actually good for RP, but only for a very narrow range of character types.
E: Dueling is done 98% (made up figure) of the time for ooc reasons. "Hey, let's fight to see who is better!"
F: People have no power to stop others who are over-dueling. (grrrr. I hate this the most)
G: Any RPG reject can walk into the game and start dueling almost right away.
I am working on an idea for a system that would address all of these concerns.
A: The first part prevents new players from starting duels for a good bit of time (based on godly powers).
B: The second does not even allow players to kill one another -legally-. Killing another player is deemed illegal no matter the situation. (legality and punishments to be defined in the finished presentation)
C: The third limits how often you can fight in non-lethal duels. (also based on legality)
D: No one is ever killed for crimes. The Settings state that execution rarely happens, so it won't. This includes the vigilantly style killing given in duels as they are now. You simply can not kill someone (legaly).
E: New commands will be created to define what is legal, and what is not. If you type /<illegal command>, you know damn well that you are doing something against the system of law in the game, and can be punished IC. this is not to be confused with ooc punishment of the player, as the game needs to remain fun, even when your character is being punished.
F: You can not do illegal commands until you develop a character that would do such things. This is done by means of a dark quest system. The more dark quests you do, the more illegal commands are unlocked. Yes, I have an IC explanation for this.
G: Doing illegal actions can be detected by certain guards (see empathic skill for reason). People who do 'evil' things will have to avoid these folks at all costs.
H: Prison map. If you complete some of the dark quests that give you access to ilegal commands, and get caught doing one of them, you go to jail. Note: this is not a normal little jail, but an entire -huge- map filled to the brim with quests, NPCs, and unique skills to learn. You do not get out until your term is completed, be it a few days, weeks, or a month, depending on your crimes.
I: Don't like the sound of H? Tough shit. If you can't take the punishments, don't play the role. Simple as that.
J: Those who complete a great number of dark quests -will- have unlimited PvP options. They can steal, kill, and do generally evil things at will. However, it only takes one time getting caught to strip all these powers away. This automatically weeds out the stupid criminals.
K: NPCs will not treat you the same if you become known as a 'bad guy', and many will no longer train you, sell or buy from you, give you quests, or even talk to you. However some -will- give you new quests, and sell you....certain items.
L: The path divides. IF you start down the path of darkness, there is no return. The game changes for you forever. You kill once, and you are forever known as a killer. You steal once, and the guards will watch your every move. You do any illegal action (defined by commands), and they -will- know. That is if you are stupid enough to get caught.
M: Duels are still legal, as long as you do not do it too much, and the other person agrees with it. Face it, everyone gets in a fistfight now and again. Not everyone kills someone every day. Save that for the creatures.
N: All of the above is aimed at getting rid of random duels, creating a system that gives power to those who think dueling is not respectable, but at the same time making a good base for players to act on who wish to be evil, and those who oppose them.
As of now, dueling is a flawed system. It is being tested, so it can not be removed. I suggest removing the ability to fight in all but specific areas (such as the Arena) and limit dueling to so many times an hour. Or charge the dueler for making the challenge, and giving the victim the money if the challenge is refused. Now, that would make them think twice. :)
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That sounds very awesome! Except when I think of the amount of time/work needed to make that work, I shudder.. :) But that's unavoidable for a good system.
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A: Dueling goes against the settings, where it is stated that there is not a great deal of hostility.
In that case, this game will never be interesting, because if there isn't conflict, then it would be a pretty monotonous roleplay for many ones. Also it breaks down many guild backgrounds into dust. Great, lets it be a utopian peaceful land of cute bunnies and don't forget to invite Barney and Mickey Mouse to join it!
No one is ever killed for crimes. The Settings state that exicution rarely happens, so it won't. This includes the vigilanty style killing given in duels as they are now. You simply can not kill someone (legaly).
Polluting the lake is one of the few crimes punished with death.
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what take out deuls from the game then what we ment to do stand around all day now comeone be real hell im one of the best deulists in the game but do you see me running about the game looking for fights ? no i rp i take up jobs i do quests i actualy dont really practice much. ok yes theres a crowd that just wanna deul but there is also an ignore button and theres also an option if you wanna deul witch i personaly think should be removed. but takeing out the deul feature is just idiotic. why should players lose yet more thing{ points to tria insodent} cause of a few a very few players that do things ? why is it fair that the few should ruin things or the game for all or others that actualy like doing things ?.
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Lordraleigh: UTM said "rarely happens," and the settings you quote also say "one of the few crimes" :)
There is much conflict in Yliakum, but the majority of it comes from the Stone Labyrinths. Yliakum is far from a utopia.
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Sorry, I meant killing and execution as two different things, where-as killing is done by players, and execution is done by a legal system.
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I think a lot of this would be solved by non lethal duels and the faction system (if it's done right).
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ok guys 1 for the prison map makeing ppl stay there for a month real life will lose you players i promise you this not to mention you will most likely lose a lot of older players i can say for damn sure if i have to go to jail for a month ill hardly ever be playing within that time and im pritty sure others will do the same thing not to mention new ppl they come in dont know what things do punch in command bang jail for a month you think they are going to stick around hell no there going to uninstall the game quicker than the can blink.
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I agree. The more you duel, the more you become known to NPCs as a bully. Quest lockouts and higher prices are in your future. :)
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Lordraleigh: UTM said "rarely happens," and the settings you quote also say "one of the few crimes" :)
There is much conflict in Yliakum, but the majority of it comes from the Stone Labyrinths. Yliakum is far from a utopia.
Just need to be sure, if that is really the Thing, I guess I will have to scrap down the organization I had the idea of making(and that is being done) because it won't fit on PS Settings(Although its conflicts are of another type). And also I won't forget to delete my account and give up on this game because it's supposed to be a relatively peaceful Setting thus characters with conflicts won't be fitting. I'll be looking for another game then with a more interesting, unstable and dynamic setting because peacefullness usually equals to a setting written on stone where players have no influence over it.
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Allive: It doesn't seem like you fully read the description for the prison map.
Note: this is not a normal little jail, but an entire -huge- map filled to the brim with quests, NPCs, and unique skills to learn.
Does that really sound so bad? Seems like a place you may want to go to, if you are a darker person.
Lordraleigh: Bye-bye! Frankly I am tired of players threatening to leave. So if you're threatening to leave, just go and get it over with. Honestly. I don't really care :)
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erm nope if i go its by choice if i get put there for a month that might well be an accident then no i aint going if im forced nope i aint going to stick around. ide rather lose items or tria depending upon the severity of the crime get placed on map then get out. and ill tell you something though loseing items and tria will keep more ppl playing and hurt them enough to think twice about doing it again. but makeing them stay on a single map for a month rl will just make ppl leave.
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Lordraleigh: Bye-bye! Frankly I am tired of players threatening to leave. So if you're threatening to leave, just go and get it over with. Honestly. I don't really care :)
Honestly I am looking for answers on what will be the implications of this internal "peacefulness" that PS will enforced to become according ot the currently settings on whether guilds like the Crimson Order have acceptable backgrounds or not, and you just answered another question I always had.
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@Krann Omins: Setting my character to auto-decline challenges doesn't solve the problem because the problem players would still be around.
@drah: It doesn't seem like a minority.
@UTM: A very creative and well thought out answer, but also very complex. Quick and dirty solutions are more likely to be used.
what take out deuls from the game then what we ment to do stand around all day now comeone be real hell im one of the best deulists in the game but do you see me running about the game looking for fights ? no i rp i take up jobs i do quests i actualy dont really practice much. ok yes theres a crowd that just wanna deul but there is also an ignore button and theres also an option if you wanna deul witch i personaly think should be removed. but takeing out the deul feature is just idiotic. why should players lose yet more thing{ points to tria insodent} cause of a few a very few players that do things ? why is it fair that the few should ruin things or the game for all or others that actualy like doing things ?.
You do realize that combat is relatively new to Planeshift? But from what I can tell, things were ok back then. If duels were taken out of the game, then people would work together to defend the city against invasion. And there would still be guild wars.
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Let's remove everything that could rely on player skill too.. like Groffeltoe and any other sub-games the devs might be thinking of that work in a similar fashion. -- Unless of course they all run automatically and are based on a char's INT skill. :)
@Zanzibar.. How many of the YWL competitors does this apply to? (as a percentage)
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Allive: The time-limit UTM was talking about is only imposed by the amount of things you may need to do to get out. So you're not going to be wandering around twiddling your thumbs, you may have quests to complete and new things to learn. If you do them all fast, great. If they take you more time, you'll need more time. Anyway, this is all concept talk. I doubt anyone is going to force any character to a single place for a month.
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ok guys 1 for the prison map makeing ppl stay there for a month real life will lose you players i promise you this not to mention you will most likely lose a lot of older players i can say for damn sure if i have to go to jail for a month ill hardly ever be playing within that time and im pritty sure others will do the same thing not to mention new ppl they come in dont know what things do punch in command bang jail for a month you think they are going to stick around hell no there going to uninstall the game quicker than the can blink.
The whole point is to get rid of unwanted players.
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Why cant people live and let live? (live and let duel maybe ;o))
If you want to duel, then do it, but not in stupid places like the tavern (IC you would be barred) or infront of harnquists (I doubt he would be too happy to clean up the mess from his shop front).
If people are content to go to the DR or the arena to test their skill in combat then what is really the problem with that?
[EDIT]
@Zanzibar This frankly isnt your personal playground, a player that you find undesireable may not be the same as a player I find undesireable. Same goes for everyone else here. We all have different levels of tolerance to things that we dont like. It just seems that some are alot less tolerant than others.
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- Rebirth could cause temporary stat/skill modifiers (ie. INT drops to 20 for a game hour).
This could be giving an IC reason, as well, such as when you leave the soul re-entering the body it weakens the body both mentally and physically (which means it would be a pain to immediately begin dueling after leaving the DR).
I think your problems are highly generalized and not specific to particular duelers: There are some like this, and there are others who are not. Metaphorically, your solution is like using an atom bomb to get rid of what a surgical missile strike could do just as easily.
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Allive: Exactly. However, you missed some of my points. New folks could not do illegal comands any more than you can port yourself around the game with GM commands.
In other games, if you kill a guard or some such, do you scream and cry because they come after you, and you have to restart the level? Do you say it was not fair, and you should be able to just do whatever you want?
If you left the game because you did not have completely free access to any 'evil' funtion in the game, I would just shrug my shoulders and hope the new changes would bring back some of the good players who left because they got sick of the constant duels.
And yes to what Karyuu said. There would be a set time that you would have to stay there if you did nothing. Two days for stealing bread, one week for assulting and robbing someone, two weeks for killing. You could get out much sooner by doing 'good deeds' in prison (quests). Or, there would be the very rare chance of breaking out. But then you have all the guards in the game on the lookout for you, pretty much banning you from all cities. I would actually not mind playing such a character. If you do, then peace out, and have fun in another game.
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Why cant people live and let live? (live and let duel maybe ;o))
If you want to duel, then do it, but not in stupid places like the tavern (IC you would be barred) or infront of harnquists (I doubt he would be too happy to clean up the mess from his shop front).
If people are content to go to the DR or the arena to test their skill in combat then what is really the problem with that?
The problem is that a lot of people ruin the game for others, they scare away potential roleplayers from the game, and they encourage a bad culture to develope.
@Zanzibar This frankly isnt your personal playground, a player that you find undesireable may not be the same as a player I find undesireable. Same goes for everyone else here. We all have different levels of tolerance to things that we dont like. It just seems that some are alot less tolerant than others.
Then I guess it's lucky for me that a lot of people see things my way.
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I like UtM's idea but I would make escape possible with outside consequences, more vigilant guards more random law encounters etc. As well I would like to see arduous quests that could redeem the player which would cause the player to lose skill levels in the black arts. For example a player kills someone and is sentenced to x years during which he builds up 50 levels of black skills, maybe escaping twice adding y years to his term. When he gets out finally he has 100 levels all told in black arts and then in some mystical role play his life is saved by a holy man who convinces him to turn away from the dark. So he goes to the temple and undertakes the process which may be 20 different multiple element tasks at which time he has redeemed himself. At the end of this process he may have only 10 levels of the black arts to access and usage of them would require further redemption quests no matter how worthy the cause for using them.
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Ahodogie,Anine,Alecin,Alliva,Arerano,Arunis,Bikrof,Blayze,Cahngui,Cebot,Cilay,
Ecuetas,Epyrion,Frangelica,Gankro,Jangeol,Marqsaynt,Mirey,Motmot,Narure,Nefert,
Poundus,Rell,Restound,Rinha,Rongar,Sallorile,Secagy,Silavur,Sissarliss,Socia,Symasta,
Tanner,Trymm,Tungor,Volund,Xylaal,Zwenze.
I'd say 80-90% of these people enjoy RP... they also enjoy(ed) duels enough to be part of a competition.
Zanzibar, are you saying the game would be better off with ALL of them gone, simply because they like dueling???
I ask this because you've not only mentioned removing dueling... but getting rid of people who like dueling too.
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How is a roleplayer scared away by seeing someone duel? surely the would accept that in a world full of mercenaries, heroes and warriors your bound to get some 'testosterone' fuelled violence. Thats life, in this world and in Yliakum.
As for those who agree with you, its only those who use the forums who we know agree, and only, IMO, a vocal minority.
Drah, very good post.
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Ahodogie,Anine,Alecin,Alliva,Arerano,Arunis,Bikrof,Blayze,Cahngui,Cebot,Cilay,
Ecuetas,Epyrion,Frangelica,Gankro,Jangeol,Marqsaynt,Mirey,Motmot,Narure,Nefert,
Poundus,Rell,Restound,Rinha,Rongar,Sallorile,Secagy,Silavur,Sissarliss,Socia,Symasta,
Tanner,Trymm,Tungor,Volund,Xylaal,Zwenze.
I'd say 80-90% of these people enjoy RP... they also enjoy(ed) duels enough to be part of a competition.
Zanzibar, are you saying the game would be better off with ALL of them gone, simply because they like dueling???
I ask this because you've not only mentioned removing dueling... but getting rid of people who like dueling too.
It's not as simple as that.
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I agree, it is not as simple as that, and you gave the reason why yourself.
"they also enjoy(ed) duels enough to be part of a competition."
Note the underlined bold word. You did not say "part of running around randomly trying to fight people and starting duels for stupid reasons, both IC and OOC."
edit* I do not think duels should be banned. But I do think there needs to be limits and options. A limit to how many times you fight an hour would be fine. Fight too much, and a guard comes to find you on grounds that you have been disturbing the peace.
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No I didn't.. but then Zanzibar made no distinction in his posts, and continues to make little distinction too.
I'm just irritated to see it implied that 'duelers' all act the same. When a broad term like that, is attributed to the behavior of a minority of overall 'duelers'.
It misrepresents many of us.
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No I didn't.. but then Zanzibar made no distinction in his posts, and continues to make little distinction too.
Damn me and my appeals to intuition!
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Ahodogie,Anine,Alecin,Alliva,Arerano,Arunis,Bikrof,Blayze,Cahngui,Cebot,Cilay,
Ecuetas,Epyrion,Frangelica,Gankro,Jangeol,Marqsaynt,Mirey,Motmot,Narure,Nefert,
Poundus,Rell,Restound,Rinha,Rongar,Sallorile,Secagy,Silavur,Sissarliss,Socia,Symasta,
Tanner,Trymm,Tungor,Volund,Xylaal,Zwenze.
I'd say 80-90% of these people enjoy RP... they also enjoy(ed) duels enough to be part of a competition.
Zanzibar, are you saying the game would be better off with ALL of them gone, simply because they like dueling???
I ask this because you've not only mentioned removing dueling... but getting rid of people who like dueling too.
If duelling is fully removed, I guess not only it'll make this game closer to:
If you really don't like anything but the rping theres this great game you can download instead. It's called IRC.
But also many of the members inside a guild I just helped to be founded will be gone forever.
Lastly, why take away something that was developed? This seems like a disrespect for those who worked hard to create the current duelling system only to see it removed.
Lets remove transfers of items between players, because people exploit it by making miner alts too!
No I didn't.. but then Zanzibar made no distinction in his posts, and continues to make little distinction too.
I'm just irritated to see it implied that 'duelers' all act the same. When a broad term like that, is attributed to the behavior of a minority of overall 'duelers'.
It misrepresents many of us.
Except for duels in the Arena, that should be fully open for them for obvious reasons.
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I see this as one group forcing its opinions on another, which isn't right. If a person enjoys PS because he comes home after work and duels to get some stress out, than so be it. If a hard core "rper" enjoys planeshift by sitting at the tavern for two hours and conversing (sp?) then so be it. Don't wanna duel? Don't duel. Wanna RP, go to the tavern. "It [rp] shouldn't be restricted to areas because of duelers" Well, dueling shouldn't be restricted from the tavern and so forth because of RPers. Two groups, different opinions, there isn't ever going to be a solution good for both groups. Yeah, I know, it's an mmoRPG. But whatever.
"weeding" "getting rid of unwanted players"
Call Adolf. We need him now.
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But these people I'm complaining about aren't keeping to themselves. They're bothering others and they're hurting the game.
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I see this as one group forcing its opinions on another, which isn't right. If a person enjoys PS because he comes home after work and duels to get some stress out, than so be it. If a hard core "rper" enjoys planeshift by sitting at the tavern for two hours and conversing (sp?) then so be it. Don't wanna duel? Don't duel. Wanna RP, go to the tavern. "It [rp] shouldn't be restricted to areas because of duelers" Well, dueling shouldn't be restricted from the tavern and so forth because of RPers. Two groups, different opinions, there isn't ever going to be a solution good for both groups. Yeah, I know, it's an mmoRPG. But whatever.
"weeding" "getting rid of unwanted players"
Call Adolf. We need him now.
Thanks for calling Godwins Law, this debate really needs to end.
If you're really looking for fully a peaceful game without combats, here's my suggestion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barney's_Hide_and_Seek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barney's_Hide_and_Seek)
It is surely a peaceful and "for all ages" game!
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It's not about making the game peaceful. Sheesh. Reread the first post of the thread if you're so lost.
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But these people I'm complaining about aren't keeping to themselves. They're bothering others and they're hurting the game.
They are hurting the game, which is your opinion. It may not be theirs. Anyway, I do beleive Talad will have the final call, let people enjoy it how they will, or enforce a RP reich (Don't know if that makes sense to anyone else. Probably not. :P )
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But these people I'm complaining about aren't keeping to themselves. They're bothering others and they're hurting the game.
They are hurting the game, which is your opinion. It may not be theirs. Anyway, I do beleive Talad will have the final call, let people enjoy it how they will, or enforce a RP reich (Don't know if that makes sense to anyone else. Probably not. :P )
Talad has the final say on all things PS related. Does that mean we shouldn't discuss anything to do with the game?
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I see 'duelers' as non-RPers who fight just to fight. Fighting has it's place in certain roles as I will define as follows.
Brawler: the IC equivilant of a dueler. They get irritated fast, and resort to fists in most -IC- arguments. They should NOT kill. I have met some of these, and they are good RPers.
Gladiator: Fights for a living, but not as often outside the ring. Only kills if it is called for. Some may be brawlers as well. Not very many people play this role, even if it is the olny actual role in the game in a way. Good RP if done right.
Killer: Someone who kills for profit or enjoyment -IC-. This role is more common than I like, and is most often done horribly. Good RP is rare for this type, and more often falls into the OOC dueler class.
Vigilante: the one time RP or a character who does not normally kill. I have seen these types a lot as well, but most of the time they are done well.
There are others as well, and all good if done right. A new system of legal and illegal commands would support all but the ooc dueler/spammer.
@ Bin: So you suggest the only place to RP in this RPG is the tavern, and the rest of the world is free to kill as they please. And your silly remark about Adolf is just plain ignorance.
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The tavern was just one example......
You can RP wherever the hell you like...I mean, damnit. Well moon, yeah. I'm done. :-X
Ignorant :'(
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I'll admit that I'm torn on the issue as well. Just now in game, a bunch of people were shouting near the magic shop. Some guy picked up someone else's swords (she dropped the swords because she had a sac nested in another sac in order to carry more, and somehow it resulted in her dropping her entire inventory [gee golly, don't cheat and you won't get burned like that!]). So the guy wasn't being very nice, but she was exploiting a bug, but whatever. The point is that a crowd of people from the victim's guild had gathered to hound him, shouting at him that he was a theif and a coward. He was declining their duel spams, which caused them to make even more shouts and insults.
So I left, sold my gold, came back, they were still at it. Dueled one of them and killed him fair and square (gave him plenty of time to get in position and run at me etc). Then three more of them challenged me, and I killed them one by one - completely fair and square. Things went reeeaaaallly quiet after that, except for a few polite tells from Cebot demanding revenge (which is perfectly fine).
I've done this a lot - taking on a number of people and killing them all. And it's not entirely in character. Shalmaneser is a psychopath and a serial killer, but in real life I love the bloodshed and I do feel a sense of accomplishment from winning these things. Yes, I admit that I have fun dueling, and that I'm not a bad dueler when I decide not to just let people kill me. And I don't have to use potions to win, like what happened with Drahlian (why do people keep talking about that?) - it's just fun to watch people hack away at my character without killing it. "Why... won't.... you.... DIE!" So I do enjoy dueling in its various forms.
The problem is that the way things are now, dueling is less fun because of the culture that has formed around it. It's basically a bunch of whiny brats shouting insults at eachother and talking about street cred. It's just dumb. And while some say that it isn't a problem and it's only a small number of players, the people who say that tend to be a part of the problem, and they don't even realize they're a part of the problem because they don't see the problem that you and I see.
I hope that this clears up my position on this. I'm not out to ruin anyone's day. Well, I am, but that's a different discussion.
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I'm impressed that after i inferred that your lack of rebuttal implies a lack of grounds for your arguments the only response you had to everything i said was:
@Krann Omins: Setting my character to auto-decline challenges doesn't solve the problem because the problem players would still be around.
Which tells me 2 things.
1) you admit I'm right about everything else.
2) all this could be resolved by doing the following:
Tell Z, that from now on Z has the gm priveledge of deleting characters, but really set it up so when Z enters the command instructed Z gets a message their char has been deleted, they are invisible to Z & messages from them will no longer be recieved by Z. And if no one lets Z know the truth the only person with a real issue with this will be quelled.
[yes i know many of you have your issues as well but the rest of you seem to understand that until faction/lawenforcement/newmaps are further developped ignoring & auto-decline are sufficient.]
Ps:
The whole point is to get rid of unwanted players.
well if we asked the people who sparked this burning desire of yours by not being pleased about your 'competitive killing', who do you think they'd say are unwanted players that should be gotten rid of, hm?
The problem is that a lot of people ruin the game for others, they scare away potential roleplayers from the game, and they encourage a bad culture to develope.
Youre asking that the game be ruined for many-- in order to get them to stop playing because you dislike it/them... (and an integral part of esatblishing any form of 'culture' is a degree of externally existing cultural diversity, against which to be contrasted, otherwise the culture is without definition/point of refference.--and wait a sec, a bad culture is still a culture right?--then it sort of falls into rp, they are just rping as really annoying people, making the game VERY realistic... Just imagine if every real life person who is annoying, misunderstands the law, goes looking for fights, and shouts at you when you don't want to fight them after "unintentionally" upsetting them--could be removed from society---not very realistic is it?--would it be more realistic to expect a spell of binding to be cast so these people COULDN'T fight at all (even if you want to 'accept their challeges')--and to expect that such a binding spell would get them to leave society of their own volition?)... Can you say "hypocrite"?--when people get too disruptive for everyone's sake GM action can be taken. otherwise I strongly advise the live & let duel idea, ignore them, auto decline them. Unless you are crowning yourself as Herr Zanzibar in charge of who is allowed to play, learn to live with it...
I'm gonna use an example here from real life; Some people from my high school class are total asses. They HAVE killed people, only 2 (that i know of) have been convicted so far (one of those for unrelated drug trafficing charges).--forgot to mention, highschool ended like 8 years ago-- (somewhat ironically) after making my first reply in this thread, on my way to the subway to get to work, i started hearing 2 of my exclassmates shouting my name & rude things that i'll leave unsaid. These guys go looking for fights, and seem to have no qualms about murder unless they might be caught. They essentially were trying to goad me into fighting them... can i wish them out of existence? no. Would i if i could? sure. Honestly i spent about half the time between first reply & this one contemplating hiring a PI to find where these people live so i could carry out my own form of judgement on them. To make the world a better place, much like you are trying to make ps a better game right?--except what you are trying for is cowardly, unrealistic & pompous. I may feel these people have no right to life & be willing to risk sacrificing my life and/or freedom to deny these people peaceable enjoyment of the same.. What you are asking is that everyone be denied peaceable enjoyment of game mechanics & their right to rp as nuissances, (because if the nuissance is ooc entirely a GM should be able to take action for the pre-existing policies such action violates), at no risk to yourself, for reasons you believe yourself an authority of. Reasons that would not affect you at all if you use features like ignore & auto-decline. Real life has no such features, the only option is law or law in your own hands--or live with it. I think a big part of why i take such offence to this is I experience people like the 'characters' that are being reffered to as idiots/nuissances etc in my real life quite often, I sure as hell don't have an ignore or auto-decline button... Admittedly I'd also like to have a way to discourage them from living in my community & without that option I'd choose to wipe them out if it didn't put me in the wrong & at risk... But i wouldn't expect a realistic gaming community to discourage the existence of such characters, just discourage them from living/ being allowed in the classier areas. --oh wait that's already being done in ps, the restricting of areas thing...hmmmmmmmmmmmmm......
Then I guess it's lucky for me that a lot of people see things my way.
Then I guess it's even luckier for those who disagree that you seem to overestimate your opinion & the number that actually agree with it... or maybe you just underestimate what would quantify 'a lot of people'...
PSS:
Ahodogie,Anine,Alecin,Alliva,Arerano,Arunis,Bikrof,Blayze,Cahngui,Cebot,Cilay,
Ecuetas,Epyrion,Frangelica,Gankro,Jangeol,Marqsaynt,Mirey,Motmot,Narure,Nefert,
Poundus,Rell,Restound,Rinha,Rongar,Sallorile,Secagy,Silavur,Sissarliss,Socia,Symasta,
Tanner,Trymm,Tungor,Volund,Xylaal,Zwenze.
I'd say 80-90% of these people enjoy RP... they also enjoy(ed) duels enough to be part of a competition.
Zanzibar, are you saying the game would be better off with ALL of them gone, simply because they like dueling???
I ask this because you've not only mentioned removing dueling... but getting rid of people who like dueling too.
It's not as simple as that.
WOW you REALLY clarified the hell out of that one. Would you consider replies like that "discussing"--or is it more along the lines of "dismissing"?... I know what i'd call it but that kind of language is frowned upon on foums...
and this:
It's not about making the game peaceful. Sheesh. Reread the first post of the thread if you're so lost.
GET OVER YOURSELF!-- you say that in like 3-4 of your dismissive replies--no, wait, not in them; AS THE WHOLE REPLY, gawd-- not gonna recheck whether it was the first time in this thread, but you just u sedthat to dimiss a post made by the SECOND person to have replied in this thread-- i THINK the first post was read sufficiently by that person.
closing notes:
Talad has the final say on all things PS related. Does that mean we shouldn't discuss anything to do with the game?
Well judjing by the reaction in a certain GM oversight thread it seems you can discuss them, for about 4 pages, then 'table' the topic until it becomes a dead thread & is buried & forgotten..
@ Bin: [...] And your silly remark about Adolf is just plain ignorance.
Generally speaking I feel the "comparing someone to hitler" argument is weak & tends to weaken foundations of otherwise intelligent arguments-- however in this case I think bin was dead on; not that Z's post is like wanting to exterminate all followers of laanx, or talad, or black flame, nor that he is in any way to be seen as a bad person or a racist--more that he is a self-apointed dictator and that he wants to eliminate a portion of the population for his own reasons & in order to do so is suggesting changes in policy/mechanics to exclude a feature/option... Hitler didn't kill jews for practicing their religion, he killed them to get rid of them. he didn't care if they foresook their religion or tried to keep it hidden, so he could ignore it & auto-decline their bagels & schmear-- it was intollerable to him that they still existed & just by existing brought this 'bad culture'... hope that's understood to be a slightly less ignorant comment than may have previously been thought.
or enforce a RP reich (Don't know if that makes sense to anyone else. Probably not. :P )
I understand that, Just call me Krann Frank, I'll be hiding in an attic till things change.
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Krann Omins, competitive killing is not against the rules. Going OOC, on the other hand, is.
It's a game. Not real life. The devs can do what they want with it, it's their sandbox -- and that includes kicking people out. As far as the rest of your post goes, you don't make any really convincing arguments. Sorry. You don't say much at all, to be honest... just seems like a lot of attempts to discredit me and my posts, but my posts speak for themselves so you're a little too late on that one.
King Zanzibar does have a nice ring to it though... me as dictator.... hmm. World peace?
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There will always be fools zanzibar.
Removing a feature from the game wont change that. It will simply attract a new class of prick.
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zanzibar, I'm not totally against this idea, but I don't think it would REALLY solve the problem, as many have said, there will always be system abusers.
Though I'd like to ask, could you give an example of when duelling ruined your game? Remember, it will only ruin the game if you let it.
^^
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Sorry did i say competitive killing was against the rules? no. Did i say that if the issue you have is with people ooc that GMs can take action, as it is against pre-existing policies? why yes, yes i did.... you just disagreed with something i never said, then supported what i said, making clear you should have just gone crying to a gm in the first place rather than making a suggestion that doesn't directly relate to your actual issue; congratulations.
-[-Oh & by the way, it may not directly violate rules to "cometitive kill", but [and i could refference where GMs stated so, if not for certain replies in another thread being deleted] it is considered, categorically, rude. & i seem to remember certain policies reffering to "The freedom of everyone has to be respected as long as it doesn't come in the way of someone else's"-- unless I'm mistaken not being treated rudely could fall under that, especially if you are using your own attack shortcuts when another person is right-clicking to attack... Total bs, talking out my hindquarters & i'd probably eat my hat before agreeing to that argument i just wrote-- BUT at least an argument could be made-- look at that; i just managed to give some credibility to something i didnt say & don't stand behind-- have you supported anything you've said? no? nothing? nothing at all?--in any event that is so many miles away from the points you missed, especially since I never went anywhere near saying that.]
Not to double post, but to reitterate: you don't respond at all to what people say & you certainly don't defend your arguments against the crticisms made to them. all you do is dismiss those who disagree with you.
How about this; put it [even tho nothing ever is] to a vote: All who want dueling eliminated vote for that & zanzi to stay, the rest vote for dueling to stay & zanzi to be permanently ip banned & account deleted. After all .these people's freedom to duel is soooooo disruptive to your enjoyment of the game that if they can't be eliminated you'd rather not play anyway, right? no?-- well then maybe, just maybe: Ignore such people, set auto-decline, and remember; The freedom of everyone has to be respected as long as it doesn't come in the way of someone else's.
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The freedom of everyone has to be respected as long as it doesn't come in the way of someone else's
Same thing could be said to his argument. those who mindless challenge over ooc issues should be removed as they are disrupting other's RP. last time I checked zanzi was still counted as someone.
I'm neither for nor against dueling. If i did have to make a decision, which I don't, I'd lead towards it, making many changes to it's structure and nature. Without the dueling ability, there would be no tournaments afterall. There goes Progie and all his fun.
There was code put in place to discourage OOC spam dueling, and upon so many declines the server would auto punish them for spamming duel challenges. Perhaps it's time that was made more strict. I really can't see the occasional "oops, i didn't mean to push that button, sorry" type of thing happening more than once, maybe twice (users should learn from their mistakes and not repeat them). So really, past that second decline, they should be getting some sort of punishment. But that's just me. Heck, to really get into it, there should be a cancel button next the yes/no thing. That way, the challengee could push that if it was on accident, else, pushing no would auto deal out punishment to the challenger for being stupid. Then I really would think we'd see a drop in all these OOC spam challenges, while still not harming those rare "oops, sorry about that" moments. But that's been talked about before, and should be discussed in that original thread, where ever it lays in the whishlist area.
I do wish people would discuss Moonies idea though, or perhaps when he gets it all layed out, make a formal thread here in the wishlist area going to it in nitty grity detail. I am intrigued. An we all know how intrigued kitties act.
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Perhaps you could copy his idea into a new thread and my reply (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27821.msg318103#msg318103) it seems to have been lost in the shuffle, I thought his suggestion was good.
umm curiosity killed the cat?
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Ick, don't refer to yourself as a 'kitty' in my presence, please. What you do in your own time is fine but I don't wanna know :P
And from the looks of it, this argument is Zanzibar versus The World, with Zanzibar having to reiterate all his points with every member of 'the world' that joins the argument (though admittedly it's less reiterating, and more calling people idiots and telling them to read his first post :P)
Anyway, I think this thread has served its purpose. The dueling system needs improvement, or working town guards should be implemented. Removing it this early in the development process - without even seeing what it's like as it matures - wouldn't make sense.
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Hi,
I'm not a huge fan of removing already added features. I'd be against removing dueling alltogether, but I do think that the system could be improved towards a more realistic approach. Underthemoon had some nice ideas there.
I'm also not big fan of duels, in a matter of fact, I've never fought a duel in PS. Neither have I ever been harassed by people who do duel. I tend to concentrate on exploring and playing my silly character. Thus I'm personally more interested in implementing more non-combat features, instead of removing the pro-combat ones.
Remember, we are developing a game here, not a playerbase. Everyone is free to join, as long as they play by the rules.
Ps. One more thing; please have some decency and stop calling people idiots.
Regards,
- Cherppow
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Wow, I never noticed your avatar blinks. That scared the crap outta me :P
Anyway, Cherpies right - people have a right to duel if they want. This game is in development - that means lots of bugs, hiccups and other OOC things... it doesn't really make a difference whether people are dueling in the background or not. Right now it's really about developing the game and having fun. And if people find dueling fun, so be it.
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*ignores all replies and replies to the initial post*
I actually agree with Zanzi ... *waits for the sky to fall on his head* ...
However if we remove duels and still allow guild wars, I fear that we'll only make matters worse. Then all those people who only play to duel and kill others will band together in guilds and fight eachother that way. The end result would be even more violence and chaos. This could be fixed by not allowing just any guild to wage war but making it a priviledge for the well established RP guilds and given authority from the Octarch (read: GM team) to have an army.
I would say just make killing another player have such a huge retribution that nobody will want to do it. In the cities this should definitely be the case. I'm basically thinking about jail times that last for at least one in-game week, gigantic tria fees and the restriction of owning/wielding a weapon for the rest of the character's life. The only exception for this would be an official war.
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I just got an idea-- you know timelocks on quests?--any way duels could happen only at high noon? :P
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Also, Zanzibar.. you mentioned this person was abusive OOC in shout...
let's remove the /shout command, chat windows and everything else that can be misused.
ALSO... removing dueling because a minority abuse it spoils fun for many who enjoy dueling without being abusive.
I'm just going to call this out for what it is... petty, short-sighted moaning.
I've covered many points and your failure to use criticial inference is NOT a fault of mine on intuition... your implications of that was an insult to me Zanizibar, no matter how smart you were in trying to thinly veil that insult... it was an insult.
You've tried to paint many players unfairly with the same brush, it's ridiculous and it's no wonder others are getting offended... and when pinned on the issue.. you've backpeddled and said it's not "as simple as that"... when we both know you are talking about all these people too.
I appreciate RP... but you and a small cabal around you seem to be pushing this ... "If you like RP and are any good at it... you cannot enjoy dueling as an artform" ... this is complete toss and I'm sick of being polite about it.
If you had implied this was down to the actions of a few noobish idiots... that would be one thing, but you blatantly haven't made that distinction and the generalizations are sweeping, only serving to cause the irate reactions you've now seen from people.
Two words... diplomacy... and tact.
Yes.. I've not used either in this post, but that's only because I'm seeing straw-man arguments and pettiness to levels that is quite literally sickening.
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@drah: These characters stick around for the duels. That's why I'm targetting duels.
@drah: If you read all my posts, you would know that I love dueling and I'm pretty good at is as well. I just think it's creating a bad culture.
@drah: The problem players are newer, but they're at the point where they're no longer just "noobs". They're now semi-established players who are encouraging new players to copy their behaviour.
you don't respond at all to what people say
I do indeed respond to what people say. More often than they deserve in fact.:)
How about this; put it [even tho nothing ever is] to a vote: All who want dueling eliminated vote for that & zanzi to stay, the rest vote for dueling to stay & zanzi to be permanently ip banned & account deleted.
Your maturity astounds me and sets new heights for me to aspire to.:)
There will always be fools zanzibar.
Removing a feature from the game wont change that. It will simply attract a new class of prick.
I'm not so sure. I see a specific problem with an apparent solution. What new problems do you see arising from this solution?
@neko kyouran: So long as duels are in the game, these problems will continue. It's nost just a matter of duel spams - it's the culture that has formed around dueling itself.
@emeraldfool: The dueling system has been around for two years. PS has been around for a lot longer than that, but I think dueling has been given its time in the sun. Until the death realm is expanded - or until laws can be inforced - perhaps we should get rid of it. Like I said, I like dueling and killing people - especially the annoying people who shout trashy insults at others. But if dueling was eliminated, many of those annoying players would leave the game.
Remember, we are developing a game here, not a playerbase.
You're developing a dev team. You're developing a GM team. You're developing a player's guide. You're developing an online community. You're developing RP events. You're developing a RP culture. And you're developing a playerbase. It's all connected.
Anything that changes that the devs can also influence runs under ther umbrella of developement. Or at least, that's how I see things.
Ps. One more thing; please have some decency and stop calling people idiots.
It's difficult to resist when you're so far above everyone intellectually.
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Ps. One more thing; please have some decency and stop calling people idiots.
It's difficult to resist when you're so far above everyone intellectually.
And having thee, of all men's pride I boast
Which shall be most my glory, being dumb;
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It's difficult to resist when you're so far above everyone intellectually.
This is a large part of your problem. I've got an IQ >150 not sure how far higher.. and I personally don't give a damn because it means very little to me... someone with an IQ at 100 would have equally an important opinion as me... but for you Zanzi.. this doesn't seem to be the case your perceive.
Your higher-than-usual intelligence does NOT give you a right to be dictatorial nor have an "abrasive" attitude as others have called it.
Again, this ties in to tact and diplomacy.
[ Edited for language. --Karyuu ]
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drah, you're taking things far too seriously - and you're going off topic.:)
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No Zanzi..
I'm not the one suggesting the complete removal of the PVP system over a few petty run-ins with noobs.
You are taking stuff too seriously. The fact you had to take a silly in-game OOC noobish behavior incident and blow it out of all proportions is evidence of this. I'm just sticking up for many people you seem to be making generalizations about... naughty me for standing up to you... are you angry at the lack of moderation against those who dissent against your opinion (you've already made a complaint in the complains forum area that seems to indicate that!!)
I'm just pointing out your self-perceived intelligence is leading to arrogance and a lack of diplomacy and tact.
You wish to spoil people's fun because you have crazy ideas on how to deal with a few petty events of noobish behavior, you could deal with this... the duelers, the pathetic noob-related instances, etc. with far more maturity and dignity.
This is just petty and spoils a lot of fun for many people... all because you're "MORE INTELLIGENT THAN THEM"!!!.
No wonder people are biting back at you Zanzi.
"Off-Topic"... No.. Again you are WRONG... You brought up the subject of your superior intelligence, I responded. YOU were the one that took things in that direction.
I will NOT be portrayed as the bad guy when you're the one putting their foot in their mouth.
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Minipax Say:
Fighting is crimethink, doubleplusungood! Proles behave!
Miniluv keep peace fullwise!
Duellers are crimethinkers, Miniluv will fix them!
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@drah: Am I making personal insults like you are though? Yes. Do you want to be like me? Heck no!
It's not about ruining anyone's fun. It's about the opposite, in fact. And no - it hasn't just been a few petty run-ins with new players.
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And no - it hasn't just been a few petty run-ins with new players.
care to elaborate?
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And no - it hasn't just been a few petty run-ins with new players.
care to elaborate?
I already have in earlier posts.
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what personal insults??
Almost everything I've said against you has been a direct result of something you've said... and in most cases I've referred back to those to make a point.
I've not insulted you, I've challenged the opinions you have exerted, I've highlighted your own opinion on your intelligence and how you seem to have a superior complex exemplified in those very actions.
Again, I will not be 'painted' as the bad guy when all I've done is use your own words against you.
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what personal insults??
Almost everything I've said against you has been a direct result of something you've said... and in most cases I've referred back to those to make a point.
I've not insulted you, I've challenged the opinions you have exerted, I've highlighted your own opinion on your intelligence and how you seem to have a superior complex exemplified in those very actions.
Again, I will not be 'painted' as the bad guy when all I've done is use your own words against you.
:offtopic:
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You made the statements that I challenge you on.
Don't think a smiley will save you!!!!
YOU ACCUSED ME OF INSULTING YOU PERSONALLY.. I respond and you post THAT!!!.. don't try ducking this... WHERE did i personally insult you... at least without making a point of something you've said (which is perfectly legitimate in an intelligible argument)
C'mon Zanzi.. your "superior intelligence" can surely do better than that!!
I will NOT stand back and have you misrepresent me because of your childish superiority-complex and your refusal to stand up for things you, yourself have stated.
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Remove duels because of the PKers
Remove mobs because of the KSers
Remove quests too because some people sell multiple times quest items.
Also remove trade of items and tria between players, this way mule and miner alts won't be exploitable.
Remove the chat window, some people use it for godmodding.
Remove... *large list with all that can be exploited in PS*
After all: Remove Planeshift, as any community will have thorns, thus if you truly wish to get fully rid of them, that's the best choice.
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You made the statements that I challenge you on.
Don't think a smiley will save you!!!!
YOU ACCUSED ME OF INSULTING YOU PERSONALLY.. I respond and you post THAT!!!.. don't try ducking this... WHERE did i personally insult you... at least without making a point of something you've said (which is perfectly legitimate in an intelligible argument)
C'mon Zanzi.. your "superior intelligence" can surely do better than that!!
I will NOT stand back and have you misrepresent me because of your childish superiority-complex and your refusal to stand up for things you, yourself have stated.
:offtopic:
Remove duels because of the PKers
Remove mobs because of the KSers
Remove quests too because some people sell multiple times quest items.
Also remove trade of items and tria between players, this way mule and miner alts won't be exploitable.
Remove the chat window, some people use it for godmodding.
Remove... *large list with all that can be exploited in PS*
After all: Remove Planeshift, as any community will have thorns, thus if you truly wish to get fully rid of them, that's the best choice.
Tis the best and only solution.
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*sigh* I hated PVP because it was alot of the times unbalanced but this is a really pushy topic IMO.
Look, almost EVERY! MMORPG has some sort of PVP, It provides players with a challenge from another real life player and not an NPC mob. The spam PVP idiots are really a result of the game being massively multiplayer online, it happens. Removing PVP entirely really would lessen the challenge of the game. The thing is to improve the moderation of features like this, if you remove everything because people abuse it well then the game itself would be removed.
You made the statements that I challenge you on.
Don't think a smiley will save you!!!!
YOU ACCUSED ME OF INSULTING YOU PERSONALLY.. I respond and you post THAT!!!.. don't try ducking this... WHERE did i personally insult you... at least without making a point of something you've said (which is perfectly legitimate in an intelligible argument)
C'mon Zanzi.. your "superior intelligence" can surely do better than that!!
I will NOT stand back and have you misrepresent me because of your childish superiority-complex and your refusal to stand up for things you, yourself have stated.
:offtopic:
Remove duels because of the PKers
Remove mobs because of the KSers
Remove quests too because some people sell multiple times quest items.
Also remove trade of items and tria between players, this way mule and miner alts won't be exploitable.
Remove the chat window, some people use it for godmodding.
Remove... *large list with all that can be exploited in PS*
After all: Remove Planeshift, as any community will have thorns, thus if you truly wish to get fully rid of them, that's the best choice.
Tis the best and only solution.
Games will always have some sort of annoyance or problems, removing the game will not solve anything.
Yes, removing PVP is an easy way out, but life is not easy i am afraid. The ask/accept PVP option is really a form of moderation in itself that many other MMOs do not have. It basically provides you with the option of avoiding massive random and unexpected attacks on your character. If PVP were balanced and respectfully conducted theres no complaints from me. :lol: I personally like arenas for that sort of thing
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There's even a better solution that doesn't require approval of the development team if you take things such way.
Click on the Planeshift "Uninstaller" desktop shortcut and click on yes on all the following questions.
Delete the client installation file.
Don't download it again.
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@LoneDragon: Do we really want Planeshift to be like Runescape though?
@lordraleigh: Try to be constructive.
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@ Zanzibar: This is far from runescape :lol: they didnt even have an ask/accept system. If you dont want PVP the simple thing is going for the deny all. Like I said before, an arena would be nice :).
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@lordraleigh: Try to be constructive.
Why? There could be 1000 people using constructive and well-founded arguments against your claim and you would still hold your ground regardless of it. :P
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Why? There could be 1000 people using constructive and well-founded arguments against your claim and you would still hold your ground regardless of it. :P
Then you're in luck, since it's Talad who will decide which arguments are well-founded.:)
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Talad would not authorize a duel system if it was not part of Planeshift plans of development.
And scrapping down the work to develop the current duelling system would be really disappointing for the devs who developed it.
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I'm not going to bother "weeding" through this thread to clean out brainpoops that don't belong here. I'm just going to give a warning. If the next time I check back here people are still acting like this:
(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1191/thevillagersarerestlessbyzikeset7.gif)
I'm going to be ending the discussion.
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Hi again,
Remember, we are developing a game here, not a playerbase.
You're developing a dev team. You're developing a GM team. You're developing a player's guide. You're developing an online community. You're developing RP events. You're developing a RP culture. And you're developing a playerbase. It's all connected.
Anything that changes that the devs can also influence runs under ther umbrella of developement. Or at least, that's how I see things.
Hmm, let me be more clear here. We should not lock off features, just because they're currently not that fine-tuned. Especially not to drive off certain type of players. Our goal is not to attract perfect players, and shove everyone else off, so that the elite can feel good. Instead, we should focus on developing the game, so that there's more activities for everyone to do. This way the experienced players don't get so bored and grumpy, and those not familiar with roleplay can get interested in it, instead of ending up doing hack&slash. Just my opinion.
Ps. One more thing; please have some decency and stop calling people idiots.
It's difficult to resist when you're so far above everyone intellectually.
I wasn't asking whether it was difficult, I was simply saying: "Please do it". And that goes out to everyone.
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Right said, Master Cherppow.
As I said before, dueling is a system in its testing phase right now. Well, actually all systems are in their testing phase right now. You can not find a better way to do things if you take them out. You can not find out what the players think if you take them out.
Now, I have never said to take dueling out, nor would I. New systems are needed to refine it (a lot), but that comes slowly, and with many more bugs. I have been hearing about the new factions system, and have high hopes in how it could affect how -or actually why- duels are done.
The point is, leave it in, but try to think of ways it could better be done and limited at the same time, but without sucking all the fun out of the game.
Even the Sims have fights. :)
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mmm probably a seperate topic but we should get rid of dual points. They are ooc and giving people the wrong idea about dualing.
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Now that I absolutly agree with. Points should only be awarded in official duels in official tournies. You can keep your own notched belt if you want to, but keep it out of the coded gui.
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deul points mean nothing at all though guys ppl say oh i got pluss 20 deul points how much you got oh i got minus 200 but like i said that means nothing. the only thing that can be gained from that is that either the person has been deuling ppl below or above there standard or they have never got rid of em like me when they were learning or alternatively {mainly minuses here} they have never gotten rid from when training and they have been deuling ppl still above there lvl or have been playing ppl that can beat em and been out of luck when deuling the past while.
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Was that in defence of them or against them? I couldn't tell.
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I think - I'm not sure, but I think - it was indifference :P Based solely on "deul points mean nothing at all though guys", the rest being something to do with how he sucks at dueling and managed to lose 200 points somehow... Or something :P
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Another one of these 10-page zanzibar threads. =P
I enjoy dueling, myself, but the new age of duelers has become like zanzibar described.
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or there should be a penalty for loosing a duel.
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No, there should be a penalty for winning a duel, like: You have been banned for being an arrogant jackass. =P
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Suno, it's not my fault if the threads you make are boring.
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The following is the basic outline that will not happen for a very long time, if ever. The full plan is far more planned out, but you folks don’t like reading.
/challenge = does not end in death, ever*. both sides must accept. Others -may- (just a possibility) stop the fight with /stopfight.
/challenge = no penalty for one time an hour or so, or in predefined training areas.
/challenge = for more than one time an hour, you start to become known as a troublemaker to the NPCs, who may start charging you more for stuff and services. Some Quests may become harder. this will go back down after a while.
/challenge = excessive per hour outside the selected area. Word gets out to all NPCs that you are a disturber of the peace, and guards will come looking for you. High level mage guards may port right to your position and pawn your sorry arse. Do you get killed? No. You get a fine, or tossed in jail. Depends on how many times you fought. Try to get away from the guards and you get in bigger trouble.
/spar = Points based fight for training or sport. Sparing can only be done in special areas like the Arena. Must use practice weapons (available for rent or own from NPCs, or make your own). Each player is given points for hits. The one who hit’s the other player in a reselected time limit the most wins. Damage does not come into play at all, use challenge for that. (combat may have to be changed a bit for this). Sparring never ends in death.
/assault = Non-confirmation attack against any player at any time. Never ends in death*. This can only be done after doing many quests that ‘take you to the dark side of the force’. Assault gets you an instant one star (GTA talk) if witnessed by an NPC, or reported to a guard by a nearby player. Guards will come after you if they see you. No NPCs will talk nice to you, and they will call to the guards if you are seen. This does -not- wear off for a very long time. Weeks even. You will not be able to talk to NPCs or walk passed guards. You will not be able to do any ‘good’ quests. You will not pass go. If you are caught, you lose the weapons you are carrying (which you can get back in a quest after you get out of jail), get a fine, and go to jail for a few days.
/assault options = If successful in an assault, you have the option to /mug small items or tria off the victim. This gets you two stars if there are any witnesses. Jail time and fines are higher.
/kill* = an option for both challenge and assaults. If you win the fight, you -can- /kill someone, but at a great cost. Killing is illegal in -all- cases. Three stars . Never wears off until you do your time (certain NPCs -could- ‘fix‘ this for you.). You must complete a huge number of ‘dark quests’ to earn the right to kill. You go to jail for a week, lose all your money (which half goes to your victim), and your weapons are -very- hard to get back. NPCs will see you as a killer -forever-, even if you do the huge number of 'good' quests to redeem yourself. This will affect how they talk to you for the rest of your character’s life.
/kill x2= If you kill more than once where it is witnessed, reported, or an empathic NPC detects, you get five stars. Guards will kick the snot out of you, then take you to jail for even longer. You lose all your money, and you can not get your weapons back. Your first ‘quest’ in jail is to melt them down. NPCs will see you forever as somewhat of a nut.
/kill murder spree= If you kill many people (I would like to point out again that you have to be in the game for at least two months and go through many, many quests to do this), it is very bad news for you. Five stars, and an empath of any skill will see you from fifty paces off. This pretty much bans you from all towns. Jail time when caught is severe. Your money is split up between all your victims.
I would like to point out once again (if you missed my other post) that the jail is NOT a punishment for the player. The prison map would be -huge-. It would contain many quests. Some would get you out faster, some would give you ‘evil’ skills. There would be contacts with factions you could only make in prison. There would be quests that you could only start there as well, but would continue once you got out. You can fight, train, and do all the things you could do ‘on the outside’, just not on the outside. It would be very much like the DR is intended to be, but you can’t get out until time is served. If anyone who wants to do evil has problems with that, go find another game.
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I think people should be able to spar in places other than the arena... if two friends wanted to find a clearing in a secluded part of a forest for instance to practice (demorians would be more inclined to train in the forest I would think).
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I suppose '"special" means "not in front of Harn's bloody forge".
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I suppose '"special" means "not in front of Harn's bloody forge".
I have an easy answer for that. If a GM sees anyone fighting near Harnquist, they can zap both parties!
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I would like to point out once again (if you missed my other post) that the jail is NOT a punishment for the player. The prison map would be -huge-. It would contain many quests. Some would get you out faster, some would give you ‘evil’ skills. There would be contacts with factions you could only make in prison. There would be quests that you could only start there as well, but would continue once you got out. You can fight, train, and do all the things you could do ‘on the outside’, just not on the outside. It would be very much like the DR is intended to be, but you can’t get out until time is served. If anyone who wants to do evil has problems with that, go find another game.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_gang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_gang)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primeiro_Comando_da_Capital (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primeiro_Comando_da_Capital)
I suppose '"special" means "not in front of Harn's bloody forge".
I have an easy answer for that. If a GM sees anyone fighting near Harnquist, they can zap both parties!
No need of getting excessively heavy-handed.
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I have an easy answer for that. If a GM sees anyone fighting near Harnquist, they can zap both parties!
I'd rather prefer a system that makes the role of GM almost not needed at all. A self governing system so to say. And only have a GM staff to step in on those rare exceptions to when the system can't handle the situation itself. :)
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No need of getting excessively heavy-handed.
What is or is not excessive is subjective.
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Banning/Killing noobs cause they duelled near Harnquist is definitively fair and great way of introducing people to Planeshift.
This would give a great first impression about Planeshift and about what the GM Team works for.
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Banning/Killing noobs cause they duelled near Harnquist is definitively fair and great way of introducing people to Planeshift.
This would give a great first impression about Planeshift and about what the GM Team works for.
A player will be killed if they duel or trade spam, or if they say the same thing too many times in a row. Why not kill people for dueling in places they're not allowed?
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Surely, next step will be to kill/ban everybody that does not do quests or all the ones who commited the mistake of godmodding.
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Surely, next step will be to kill/ban everybody that does not do quests or all the ones who commited the mistake of godmodding.
Why do you say that?
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Your ideas are on the same line of "Patriot Acts", although they are on fully different fields, and PS issues being much less critical than the Real World issues. Both are extremely restrictive and authoritarian ideas based on extremely biased assumptions.
Here the question is:
- Heavy-handed enforcement/measures to fight against duellers that are all "bad roleplayers" from your PoV
It will only change the way bad RPers operate.
Out there it is
- Breaking civil liberties to fight against "terrorists"(very subjective term)
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*Added
Also characters that are nuisances(AKA: Jerks) should not be kept with free reign bothering other people in Yliakum. They disturb public peace even more if not as much as brawlers and violent troublemakers.
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I don't see it as heavy handed.
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If it isn't heavy-handed, then lets extend it to other types of bad characters as well.
If some people exploit too much the absence of guards and laws to bother other characters and their players with mockeries, taunts and other things(sometimes whether they are IC or OOC is debatable), first kill their characters, then ban them from PS as well!
As I added:
Also characters that are nuisances(AKA: Jerks) should not be kept with free reign bothering other people in Yliakum. They disturb public peace even more if not as much as brawlers and violent troublemakers.
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*Two duelists independently travel into a distant future of Yliakum... Hydlaa police is now on alert*
The following is a video documentary of what happens next (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPey8yxyNVY)
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Maybe it's heavy handed. Maybe it isn't. What I do know however is that it's necessary - at least until a system is in place to punish people for their actions.
We need Moogie to come back. She and I disagreed on a lot of things, and I didn't like a lot of the decisions she made as a moderator - but I think she had a good vision for the Planeshift project and this is a time when the project would benefit from having more people with that vision.
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People should be killed and banned for roleplaying "evil" characters too?
You avoided very well another point I have made so far, so for the third time I repeat:
Also characters that are nuisances(AKA: Jerks) should not be kept with free reign bothering other people in Yliakum. They disturb public peace even more if not as much as brawlers and violent troublemakers.
It's not necessary, bad roleplayers will definitively find other ways to exploit the game.
Also I see what kind of "vision" this is that you so much insist:
A fairy-tales good world with only good people and...
(http://img03.picoodle.com/img/img03/7/2/22/f_planetubbiem_3e24fdc.jpg)
And for last, I think no duels would be a great way to RP(Or do it OOCly perhaps) a Jerk-type of character and of bothering both characters and players without facing consequences.
I am not blind to what happens in-game.
I will put everything about this suggestion in one single word: hypocrisy
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You can roleplay an evil character without being an OOC jerk.
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You can roleplay an evil character without being an OOC jerk.
I have the funny impression that you want to use PS as your playground to bother people.
OOC Jerks don't need duelling to bother the community, and I can prove it easily with certain chatlogs from a certain PC, if necessary.
Also you're as always dodging significant parts of the arguments.
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I have the funny impression that you want to use PS as your playground to bother people.
I have the funny impression that you'll continue to post flame baits no matter what anyone says to you.
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Being an 'evil' character shouldn't be about dueling at all ... I've yet to come across a good criminal character in the game. Evil in PS seems to equal to being a jerk and harming or killing anyone who gets in your way without bothering with the consequences. I've also seen those evil characters pick fights with well organised groups but then when they finally get the fight ... all they will accept is dueling and killing them one person at a time.
A duel is only what it is, a honorary agreement between two individuals to test eachother's strength and settle differences when all else has failed. Any other choice of /duel use is an OOC one and holds serious roleplaying dangers.
An evil person will most definitely not duel .. they will stab you in the back or slit your throat while you sleep.
I wish people would use /duel for what it is and stick to roleplaying for killing other people and being evil.
Zanz is right that the PvP aspect is a major attraction for many of us. Those who love to PvP know that I'm right, they might not admit it but they enjoy knowing that their character is stronger than another or that their dueling tactics are better. They like the thrill of a duel and the victory afterwards. However they will look past a defeat, past the death aspect and shrug it off as a simple walk through the death realm. This annoys quite a few more serious roleplayers who do consider death to have great consequences.
And UtM .. you should get a solid place within the Dev team if you ask me, your ideas are all grand.
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UtM for settings dev!
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@Zan: I know some of the "evil" characters you just described in Planeshift, and you are right about duelling. Still there is other type of "evil" as I mentioned that sadly seems rather common: Jerks that say/shout things to bother others and provoke conflict, asking for fights with their comments directed to other characters(And some times even directed at the players OOCly). Restricting duelling won't stop them. Instead will give them(and their sometimes equally jerkish players) one more reason to ask for fights as people that duel excessively will be punished: to screw with others by provoking fights as they'll be punished.
Also there is other type of "evil" character that sadly seems to be missing(or not, it's impossible to identify such characters unless their players tell OOC they are such): the "Smart Evil". One that is a respectable citizen of Hydlaa, that everybody loves, but that secretly plots and makes schemes for his/her selfish goals. "Evil" should be mostly secret and stealthy in Yliakum.
Not sure if @UtM is interested in getting a place on the settings team though.
@zanzibar: Slippery like soap, you are still running away from my main argument, probably because you cannot stand against it, you always reply to only the lees important part of what was written instead of all of it. Also Look your past actions and yourself at the mirror before accusing me of being a flamer.
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Jerks that say/shout things to bother others and provoke conflict, asking for fights with their comments directed to other characters(And some times even directed at the players OOCly).
These are exactly the types I want to do away with.
@zanzibar: Slippery like soap, you are still running away from my main argument, probably because you cannot stand against it, you always reply to only the lees important part of what was written instead of all of it. Also Look your past actions and yourself at the mirror before accusing me of being a flamer.
Repeat your main argument in a concise form and I will respond to it directly. And try to control yourself - personal attacks do not belong on this forum.
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Jerks that say/shout things to bother others and provoke conflict, asking for fights with their comments directed to other characters(And some times even directed at the players OOCly).
These are exactly the types I want to do away with.
Great, will you delete your main character or leave Planeshift then?
@zanzibar: Slippery like soap, you are still running away from my main argument, probably because you cannot stand against it, you always reply to only the lees important part of what was written instead of all of it. Also Look your past actions and yourself at the mirror before accusing me of being a flamer.
Repeat your main argument in a concise form and I will respond to it directly. And try to control yourself - personal attacks do not belong on this forum.
At least I try to be a little more polite than you. As I said, I don't forget such things easily. It is just the law of action and reaction. And you are just dodging most of them anyways.
In other words, you have your head up your rear end and you can't stand to leave a thread untouched by spam.
Also I am tired of being a parrot and repeating what I just said. If you wish to deny them from the previous posts, I won't waste more time trying to point my arguments another time.
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Great, will you delete your main character or leave Planeshift then?
Are you on crack? I don't do things like that. Why do you even bother posting if all you're going to do is flame people for no good reason?
At least I try to be a little more polite than you. As I said, I don't forget such things easily. It is just the law of action and reaction. And you are just dodging most of them anyways.
I've asked you to repeat it so that I can respond to it. You did not repeat it, so you must have no argument to make. Why are you asking me to respond to an argument you don't even have?
Also I am tired of being a parrot and repeating what I just said. If you wish to deny them from the previous posts, I won't waste more time trying to point my arguments another time.
I'm tired of you repeating yourself as well. So why don't you stop? :)
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1)
Banning/Killing noobs cause they duelled near Harnquist is definitively fair and great way of introducing people to Planeshift.
This would give a great first impression about Planeshift and about what the GM Team works for.
In other words: A Great way of making people throw posts here like "GMs = Nazis" and to make noobs leave in great waves before they could experience PS and learn about Roleplaying.
2)
I gave a answer you, acted like if you couldn't understand
Surely, next step will be to kill/ban everybody that does not do quests or all the ones who commited the mistake of godmodding.
I meant that this could be just the first step on a succession of actions that would slowly lead PS to become what @Robinmagus described as a "RP-reich".
3)
Your ideas are on the same line of "Patriot Acts", although they are on fully different fields, and PS issues being much less critical than the Real World issues. Both are extremely restrictive and authoritarian ideas based on extremely biased assumptions.
Here the question is:
- Heavy-handed enforcement/measures to fight against duellers that are all "bad roleplayers" from your PoV
It will only change the way bad RPers operate.
Out there it is
- Breaking civil liberties to fight against "terrorists"(very subjective term)
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*Added
Also characters that are nuisances(AKA: Jerks) should not be kept with free reign bothering other people in Yliakum. They disturb public peace even more if not as much as brawlers and violent troublemakers.
On the same line of comparison: Claiming all those who use and like the duel system are bad roleplayers is like saying all muslims are terrorists.
The "*Added" message is something you dodged during several posts. Because I have more than enough evidence that one of your characters is one of them(And that you bother people OOCly as well). Your proposition is fully biased on your self-interest and ignores points about whether what you do in game is good for Roleplay or not.
4) Just a restatement of the previous affirmations as you insisted to ignore the point about "jerk" characters(and players sometimes)
And for last, I think no duels would be a great way to RP(Or do it OOCly perhaps) a Jerk-type of character and of bothering both characters and players without facing consequences.
I am not blind to what happens in-game.
I will put everything about this suggestion in one single word: hypocrisy
/me ignores the next bait.
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1. Easy answer: When making a challenge, a warning comes up that says "Are you sure you want to fight here? The authorities may arrest or kill you if you're seen."
2. I don't see how this follows from stopping people from fighting in public areas.
3. You're ridiculous. First you say that I'm like George Bush, and now you're saying I'm like anti-Islamists. When will you grow up? If this action is heavy handed, so be it if it is necessary.
4. Again, you're accusing me of things I'm innocent of. Why are you trying to slander me? Even if you have some idiotic personal grudge against me, just ignore who's saying what and instead concentrate on what's being said. Are you capable of that?
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/me frowns.
I hope you two know that you are the only two reading your posts most of the time. I would equate this aggressive banter to fighting in front of Harn's. In your own opinions, you are both right, but you will not convince the other of this. Give it a rest.
But I do say a big NO to having the GMs step in for one main reason. GMs don't want to be babysitters, and they can not be there all the time. In the future, PS may have thousands of players on at once, and GMs can not cover all of the areas that are not ok to fight in. In my system, I outlined two things that would specifically curb the need for GMs.
One was the /stopfight command that other players can do if they see the fight as disruptive and OOC. This -could- be used to troll, and some creep could run around trying to stop all dueling, but the system could be adjusted to curb that. Prhaps multiple /stopfights would be needed from more than one player.
The second is even more simple. The system already supports various PvP zones (though not in use yet), and a duel spamming trigger. Any place that is deemed as not good for fighting can not be fought in without alerting the guards. This includes just challenging, even if it is declined. I am in support of guards that can automatically ‘poof’ into the scene with special guard-only-glyphs, then ‘poof’ the offender outside the city gates with a stern warning. The ‘killing’ for duel challenging I do not like, as it goes directly against the Settings saying killing for a crime is rare. Porting to a random point in the middle of nowhere is a much better, and much more realistic (in a magic world, that is) way to do things. And, much more irritating for the spammer. Once again, the system would need some tweaking to work well.
And -NO- killing. The Settings say being put to death for a crime is rare, so rare it should be. Period.
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I'm very close to throwing a padlock on this. Discuss the subject of the thread, not each other. Final warning.
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For once...in ever....first time...in history...I sort of agree with zanzibar. HOWEVER saying duelist's are bad roleplayers, flamers and badmouths is a stereotype. I see alot of dimwits go around trying to be like the most powerful or liked roleplayers and or people in planeshift community. I also like the idea of guards, just not the "poof" thing, now in citys etc. dueling will be not allowed except for tournaments, arena. BUT out in the wilderness, outside of city limits there are no guards. At another certain area, anyone can kill anyone. Of course these are ideas but not bad ones. Though heh, /challenge is OOC, this is an MMORPG obviously at some point we reach a limit of roleplay tech. and have to use some OOC tech in the game for our little duels.
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For once...in ever....first time...in history...I sort of agree with zanzibar.
Good to know you've been keeping track. I've only known of you for a few days.
HOWEVER saying duelist's are bad roleplayers, flamers and badmouths is a stereotype. I see alot of dimwits go around trying to be like the most powerful or liked roleplayers and or people in planeshift community. I also like the idea of guards, just not the "poof" thing, now in citys etc. dueling will be not allowed except for tournaments, arena. BUT out in the wilderness, outside of city limits there are no guards. At another certain area, anyone can kill anyone. Of course these are ideas but not bad ones. Though heh, /challenge is OOC, this is an MMORPG obviously at some point we reach a limit of roleplay tech. and have to use some OOC tech in the game for our little duels.
It's a game and the devs can violate realism as much as they want.
Not everyone who duels fits the profile I and others have described. However, there are far too many players who do fit this profile.
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:-\ Well I'm now convinced; duels should be removed. In the long run that's for the best. At this point I'd like to start campaigning for this idea & saying it's praises.
If you don't understand why maybe you should re-read the entire thread... If you post saying you still don't understand, you should expect a snide dismissive response...
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There will always be fools zanzibar.
Removing a feature from the game wont change that. It will simply attract a new class of prick.
I'm not so sure. I see a specific problem with an apparent solution. What new problems do you see arising from this solution?
I'm not saying that a direct problem will result from this "solution", just a new one will inevitably arise at a later stage.
I personally never leveld or trained enough to be any good at duels, the one I did fight was RP based and joking, I was promptyly flattened.. by a Fenki no less...
Nevertheless I dont think that removing a feature from the game woulld be all that productive. Fixing it would be alot more productive.
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Fixing it would be alot more productive.
Why shouldn't we remove it until it is fixed? The devs remove things all the time if they prove to be buggy.
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Fixing it would be alot more productive.
Why shouldn't we remove it until it is fixed? The devs remove things all the time if they prove to be buggy.
Care to give an example there, Zanzi?
In my experience they seem to just pile on the content and deal with the bugs as they come. And rightly so, I think: Planeshift has few features and little to do as it is, without removing functional content (even if it is flawed...).
And this isn't a matter of 'understanding' anything, it's a matter of ideals. The argument is between people who think it's wrong to remove dueling because it gets abused sometimes, and the people who think it's necessary to avoid the abuse.
Until (meaning 'if') it gets removed, we wont really know what will happen to the dueling 'sub-culture', but regardless of that I think it would be a step-down. Ill-functioning features are better than no features at all...
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Care to give an example there, Zanzi?
NPCs, various quests. various spells, aspects of crafting, etc and so on and so forth.
Emerald, these people don't stick to a particular sub culture - they affect other people playing the game. So I don't know what you're trying to suggest.
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It's a game and the devs can violate realism as much as they want.
Not everyone who duels fits the profile I and others have described. However, there are far too many players who do fit this profile.
Yep. devs are the modern day planeshift "the man".
When that profile...its ussualy spoiled noobs.
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It's a game and the devs can violate realism as much as they want.
Not everyone who duels fits the profile I and others have described. However, there are far too many players who do fit this profile.
Yep. devs are the modern day planeshift "the man".
When that profile...its ussualy spoiled noobs.
The devs are people also, with real ideas that they can make.
I personally think that the duel system should still be in place because its sometimes fun to duel against a player and not a computer generated mob. The duel system in the game can be alot better than you all might give credit to. Why, in most MMORPGs they dont have a feature that allows you to duel, instead a HIGH level SNOB can come at you when your level 10 and 1 hit kill you. If the system were fixed to stop the duel spamming then I really dont see a problem with the feature itself.
I also like the idea of guards, or some type of law or rule enforcement system.
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Challenges should definitely not be a pop up window in the middle of the screen to stop the spam. Instead they should be a part of a GUI window somewhere where you can position it in corners or sides of the screen. It could, for example, highlight a challenger's name on a list. You can then press buttons that are part of that GUI window "Accept", "Deny" or "Deny All". If you simply ignore the challenges, they go away after a time period. If you highlight a name and click "Accept", you accept that challenge. If too many people challenge you at once and you aren't interested in a PvP with anyone at the moment, you can "Deny All" or simply ignore them.
Just a rough idea. :)
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Basically good ideas up to point
-guards, npcs or a GM controlled enforcement system.
-SPAMMING stopped.
-If you dont like dueling currently, put in the auto-decline duels.
-Devs/Gm's are people. *looks terrifed at karyuus whip*
I dunno what else to add, Im a bit lazy.
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No duels? Hey, maybe lets erase whole combat alltogether? \o/\o/\/o/\o/ That will stop these bestards! his is going to be so ummm... What is the word for being bored while having fun?
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No duels? Hey, maybe lets erase whole combat alltogether? \o/\o/\/o/\o/ That will stop these bestards! his is going to be so ummm... What is the word for being bored while having fun?
I dont know, maybe you hate the game but are addicted.
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No duels? Hey, maybe lets erase whole combat alltogether? \o/\o/\/o/\o/ That will stop these bestards! his is going to be so ummm... What is the word for being bored while having fun?
Paradox
Anyway that's the real thing @Nikodemus. It would make this game closer to an "Ocean of boredom".
If now 98 in 100 says "This game sux" and leaves the game (% of people that don't play PS anymore = Roughly 98% according to these statistics (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27588.msg314080#msg314080) )
Once the combat is fully removed 9999 in 10000 will say "This game sux".
Active playerbase will be pretty large then.
A "Hell" of boredom for players
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:offtopic: This is my "number of beast " post :devil:
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Hmmm. Not true. There are a great many RP-ish type games that have no combat at all.
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No duels? Hey, maybe lets erase whole combat alltogether? \o/\o/\/o/\o/ That will stop these bestards! his is going to be so ummm... What is the word for being bored while having fun?
I think it's called molecular blue, but I haven't experienced it myself.:)
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... and 20 people on a server.
10 times less than now, so if currently 98% leave PS, 10% of 2% is 0.2%, so lordraleigh overstated only 20 times.
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Once the combat is fully removed 9999 in 10000 will say "This game sux".
Active playerbase will be pretty large then.
But think of the quality! :) Tons of people wandered into MB and left with "This game sux" within ten minutes of their visit. Those who stayed, however, were absolutely wonderful.
when we hit .4 PS might be recognized as a massive roleplaying game.
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Hmmm. Not true. There are a great many RP-ish type games that have no combat at all.
Will we be able to build cities in the future, manage them(Including Education, Health, Finances, etc.) and RP being a mayor? While having to deal sometimes with all kind of natural disasters like floods, fires, and so?
Will we be able to open business in an economically realist environment, where things like propaganda and management will be necessary to make them grow in Yliakum while trying to beat the competitors?
If no combat/conflict exists, unless it become some kind of "Tycoon" or "Sim" game focused on RP, or something like that, I doubt it would be interesting to play PS just for saying "Hello" and chatting to your character friends using the the chat system. There's another thing for that called IRC.
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Hmmm. Not true. There are a great many RP-ish type games that have no combat at all.
Will we be able to build cities in the future, manage them(Including Education, Health, Finances, etc.) and RP being a mayor? While having to deal sometimes with all kind of natural disasters like floods, fires, and so?
Will we be able to open business in an economically realist environment, where things like propaganda and management will be necessary to make them grow in Yliakum while trying to beat the competitors?
If no combat/conflict exists, unless it become some kind of "Tycoon" or "Sim" game focused on RP, or something like that, I doubt it would be interesting to play PS just for saying "Hello" and chatting to your character friends using the the chat system. There's another thing for that called IRC.
All of that and pvp combat, its probably peoples problem with player versus combat that it is OOC. If you figure out a good solution go to wish list, but you know pvp hit and run dueling etc. is all part of roleplay, as is crafting, and mining and all the rest.
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All of that and pvp combat, its probably peoples problem with player versus combat that it is OOC. If you figure out a good solution go to wish list, but you know pvp hit and run dueling etc. is all part of roleplay, as is crafting, and mining and all the rest.
Hit an run in combat is entirely OOC. There should be no debate on that point given the discussions we've had on it, and I'm annoyed that you're still defending it.
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All of that and pvp combat, its probably peoples problem with player versus combat that it is OOC. If you figure out a good solution go to wish list, but you know pvp hit and run dueling etc. is all part of roleplay, as is crafting, and mining and all the rest.
Hit an run in combat is entirely OOC. There should be no debate on that point given the discussions we've had on it, and I'm annoyed that you're still defending it.
No zanzibar, hit and run is not ooc, it cant be because in every single battle in history and currently whether swords or guns. People dodge and shoot, run and fire, sneak and slash. nothing OOC 'bout that. the ooc part really is the /challenge.
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No zanzibar, hit and run is not ooc, it cant be because in every single battle in history and currently whether swords or guns. People dodge and shoot, run and fire, sneak and slash. nothing OOC 'bout that. the ooc part really is the /challenge.
The way people do hit-and-run attacks in PS is in no way realistic; you cannot compare it to the way people fight in real life. It simply isn't the same thing.
Dodging is already built into the code for stationary combat.
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Play x=me player y=opponent.
[player x= 40 sword 25 LA, player y= 50 dagger, maxed stats, maxed MA and LA.]
A.
Player x changes stance and runs to y.
Player y runs to the left changes stance and runs to x.
Player x jumps over a table, changes stance jumps over and runs to y.
Player y jumps backward twice changes stance and runs to x.
Player x runs right, throws a arrow, y is blinded, x wipes out opponent with two strikes.
-------------------------------------
B.
Player x walks to player y.
Player x changes stance.
Player y changes stance.
Player x dodges y's daggers.
Player y blocks x's sword.
Player x gets one hit killed by player y.
Now was A better than B?
Hit and Run cant be OOC, why? because it uses real tactics used during the medieval ages, all sci-fi action, almost everything in combat since cavmen learned to use fire.
If lag or OOC /challenge is a problem, patience.
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In medieval combat between knights, combat usually meant two guys taking turns hitting eachother until one collapsed from exhaustion.
The way the combat system is written, agility and dodging are included in the computations for whether or not the character avoids the hit. But people are cheating by running away, thus forcing the hit to abort. It's an exploit of the game mechanics, there's absolutely positively nothing IC or fair about it. And once you throw in lad, the claim that it's IC is even more ridiculous. By running around, you are not dodging hits; you are running away from the fight. The fact that you don't yield to your opponent, and that you continue attacking, is little better than a bug.
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bug schmug. the only foundation for calling that sort of fighting ooc [that i give merit anyway] is that it relies on playerskill rather than characterskill. But o guess what someone with int20 can still beat someone with 100 int at groffeltoe, someone with 150 agil may struggle more to make a special jump around a certain wall to reach a certain area of map than someone with 50 agil--
Therefore: so what?
[PS--the not relying on trained character skills is a large part of many folks' gripe with rp style fighting of '/ me' & '/ my'. once again the argument is: so what?]
everything you deem to be ooc is deemed such by your own ooc. your character would never say the person's actions are out of character unless they knew the person & felt it wasn't normal action for that person. You say it's running way & making the person abort hitting: exactly, that's just how your character sees it & your character can call theirs a coward for doing so. It's not an exploit of game mechanics, otherwise when an npc is going to kill you you are exploiting mechanics if you run away. If i in reality hit someone then run away before they can hit me i don't expect them not to try & hit me back if i let them get near me, i wouldn't expect running to mean the fight is over--and if i'm still trying to get close enough to hit them again, thereby allowing them another oppertunity to hit me again, i wouldn't be yielding...
I'd consider it more of a bug exploit if someone challenged, hit me, then yielded before i could hit them back--seeing as its just a game mechanic preventing retalliation rather than my own lack of playerskill at chasing or wise spellcasting....(and really the whole yield thing should be at the person to whom one is yielding's discretion, if you want to kill them it should be up to you at that point-- & is very unrealistic to force acceptace of a yield when one cannot force acceptance of combat to start with)
BUT that should all be moot should this idea pass of removing duels (even if only temporarily)
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the only foundation for calling that sort of fighting ooc [that i give merit anyway] is that it relies on playerskill rather than characterskill.
Plus there's the bit about how you're exploiting certain mechanics of the game in order to bypass other mechanics of the game. (That's cheating, if you weren't aware.) Etc and so on blah blah blah.
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In medieval combat between knights, combat usually meant two guys taking turns hitting eachother until one collapsed from exhaustion.
The way the combat system is written, agility and dodging are included in the computations for whether or not the character avoids the hit. But people are cheating by running away, thus forcing the hit to abort. It's an exploit of the game mechanics, there's absolutely positively nothing IC or fair about it. And once you throw in lad, the claim that it's IC is even more ridiculous. By running around, you are not dodging hits; you are running away from the fight. The fact that you don't yield to your opponent, and that you continue attacking, is little better than a bug.
You’re talking about knights. Have you heard about guerilla warfare Zanzibar? It’s very effective if you are up against large numbers. It’s one of the way’s the United States train’s its marines or other soldiers. It’s another way the U.S won the American Revolution. Hit & Run cannot be out of character because in character people run away. People shoot arrows and hide. People stab around a corner. Its strategy and tactics. Just because dodge and block is in the computations, it doesn’t seem very interesting to either player when standing there hoping you get a hit.
the only foundation for calling that sort of fighting ooc [that i give merit anyway] is that it relies on playerskill rather than characterskill.
Plus there's the bit about how you're exploiting certain mechanics of the game in order to bypass other mechanics of the game. (That's cheating, if you weren't aware.) Etc and so on blah blah blah.
.Why is it exploiting if it in truly is part of roleplaying. It's not exploiting because the player is just using terrain, tactics and timing to win.
A real exploit is spamming attacks or actually trying to make your opponent lag or crash.
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I think i understand his point tho... It's like in real life, if someone is trying to make physical contact & you run away, using the mechanics of your legs, to beyond their reach-- you are exploiting the part of physics mechanics where if a target object is out of someone's range they won't make contact-- in order to avoid the mechanic of their attempt at physical contact with what was expected to be a stationary target. If someone used an exploit like that while playing tag I'd certainly get mad & call them a cheater.
:D
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We're not talking about guerilla warfare. We're talking about people moving in and out of striking range in a computer game. You can use guerilla tactics without using hit and run attacks or mobile combat or moving while attacking or whatever you want to say.
Don't talk about guerilla warfare. It's unrelated.
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This brings up a goodpoint that might be a halfway measure. Make it that you automatically lose the duel if you move too far away from the other person.
This would prevent those fustrating duels where the other person challenges and then runs off to hide until you get frustrated and default the duel. If it left some room then you would not have to stand toe to toe to slug it out but would allow for some small strategy to be used.
Even better, make the person who challenges be the one who loses the duel if you get too far apart. This would cut down on the number of people who make obnoxious challenges as all you have to do is move out of range and they lose.
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This brings up a goodpoint that might be a halfway measure. Make it that you automatically lose the duel if you move too far away from the other person.
This would prevent those fustrating duels where the other person challenges and then runs off to hide until you get frustrated and default the duel. If it left some room then you would not have to stand toe to toe to slug it out but would allow for some small strategy to be used.
Even better, make the person who challenges be the one who loses the duel if you get too far apart. This would cut down on the number of people who make obnoxious challenges as all you have to do is move out of range and they lose.
I like you.
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This brings up a goodpoint that might be a halfway measure. Make it that you automatically lose the duel if you move too far away from the other person.
This would prevent those fustrating duels where the other person challenges and then runs off to hide until you get frustrated and default the duel. If it left some room then you would not have to stand toe to toe to slug it out but would allow for some small strategy to be used.
Even better, make the person who challenges be the one who loses the duel if you get too far apart. This would cut down on the number of people who make obnoxious challenges as all you have to do is move out of range and they lose.
I like you.
First: I like the idea of running to far away, duels cancelled, but a sign should say "
you are going to far away, keep going and you will lose."
secondly:WOOOOOOOOOOO
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Now Now everyone, Lets not call anyone names! This just makes them more thirsty for the duel. But I feel that since you can turn down the duel than there is no harm in it really. I mean in real life there are bullies. So let them have their fun. Just down talk to them if you don't want to.
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In medieval combat between knights, combat usually meant two guys taking turns hitting eachother until one collapsed from exhaustion.
The way the combat system is written, agility and dodging are included in the computations for whether or not the character avoids the hit. But people are cheating by running away, thus forcing the hit to abort. It's an exploit of the game mechanics, there's absolutely positively nothing IC or fair about it. And once you throw in lad, the claim that it's IC is even more ridiculous. By running around, you are not dodging hits; you are running away from the fight. The fact that you don't yield to your opponent, and that you continue attacking, is little better than a bug.
Your wrong, try your theory in front of a Ubernaught or a King Tefu.
In your eyes, the fact that you can outmaneuver these is irrelevent.
You see a dodge as a hit_and_run when in fact its a momentary evasion of one single attempt at a hit.
Perhaps our ancestors were supposed to stand in front of Mammoths and respect "the game mechanics".
Seriously, what you suggest is OOC.
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Your wrong, try your theory in front of a Ubernaught or a King Tefu.
In your eyes, the fact that you can outmaneuver these is irrelevent.
You see a dodge as a hit_and_run when in fact its a momentary evasion of one single attempt at a hit.
Perhaps our ancestors were supposed to stand in front of Mammoths and respect "the game mechanics".
Seriously, what you suggest is OOC.
i. You aren't outmaneuvering the NPCs. You're running by them so that they don't have time to hit you because the game is coded for stationary combat.
ii. Hit and run attacks aren't even slightly realistic. In real life, they would grab you or hit you as you run by.
iii. You aren't dodging. Dodging is already coded into the game with stationary combat in mind. That's why the armor skills exist.
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In your eyes, the fact that you can outmaneuver these is irrelevent.
You see a dodge as a hit_and_run when in fact its a momentary evasion of one single attempt at a hit.
Perhaps our ancestors were supposed to stand in front of Mammoths and respect "the game mechanics".
Seriously, what you suggest is OOC.
There's A bug in the works that prevent mobils from running To make it fair, the next time you hunt an ulber, WALK and DO NOT RUN. then the both of you will be in equal footing.
Actually here's an idea, disable the run feature when in combat.
Though I much perfer to see ulbers RUN the "hunters" over. Even if I don't witness it in character, the flame posts lighting up the forum would be funny enough.
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Yeah. Ulbers should be able to run at 125% the speed of a player, and they should be able to turn around at lightning speed.
Edit: Got into another duel today. It was just a random challenge someone sent me without any explanation... the guy I killed danced all over the place trying to get behind me etc. Tons of three point turns (just like the way people move in real life). Is this supposed to be fun?
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On the subject of Dash-n-Slash, it is unrealistic to think the person doing the dashing has all the advantages. They are running, so have less balance, and poorer aim. Running, in effect, is a stance in itself. The person not moving can have better balance, and choose his moves more carefully.
If this combat system was left in, I would change how it worked. The concept is simple. If both combatants are in a fighting stance, and run at each other, the server would give them -both- a move every time they came close enough to hit, even if it did not show up on your client yet. Dash-N-Slash would then become exactly like stationary combat, just with pauses as the players backed off from each other. In addition, running at the instant of attack would lower your defense and accuracy. Walking would also, but to a lesser extent.
These are stated as improvements to the existing system, which I am not so fond of in the first place. Timing hits based on lagtimes is not my idea of fun.
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In all visual MMOs I've seen players move their chracters like they are parallel parking. I'm even guilty of that. To think that you can run foward and backwards with out a mistep and fall is funny. Even in the NFL/NBA, I've seen player trip up on themselves and fall, these are athletes, the best of the best. But in MMOs stuff like that never happens cause it would be a pain in the ... just to code those random events. And then to hear all the moaning and whining when characters start falling down is even worse.
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*giggles at the thought of all the whining of people*
Please do code it in then ;)
But anyhow dueling is silly at the moment. It's so unbalanced one or two tweaks wont even bring it close to making it balanced, so this talking about one solution or the other is kind of funny in my eyes, becuase to make it balanced you would need a list of several small changes I think. These big changes I feel wont make it more balanced, just like this last one didn't.
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Baby steps.
This game is still in an alpha stage. Version 2.0 can come and go and it can still be in an alpha stage if not everything works. The point being, this is the time to code and test things out. even fixing something that is inherently broken the object is not to make it the final version(for crying out loud, PS ain't Microsoft) the small fixes and patches might eventually lead to a whole new system, these small ideas and fixes might actually give insight to how the new system might look.
Even if they are eventually a waste of time and scrapped by something better, their input is to show what works and what doesn't and that's their contribution.
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*twirls her tail*
In my opinion these one hit kills make it really hard to make any comments on what would be good as fixes and what not, specially if it has already been said they are not intended. This would mean you would atleast have to make it so highly leveled persons don't kill eachother that fast before one can make sound conclusions about the rest.
Just my opinion though ;)
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Sorry I haven't dueled since the last person aI tangoed with gave me an epileptic attack.
But if what you say is true.
If two character with the same high levels in all regards can kill each other in one hit, first come first served, then yes there's a fundamental flaw in the works, Like bringing an Atom bomb to an old western stand off, even if you give Abram tanks to each, the one that fires last is nuked. Then armor/dodging/ect in fights have to be brought up to scale or damage down.
As for the other bits, stick'em in while you're at it. They won't hurt an already flawed system and we might see improvements in other regards. And you can always take them out.
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I dunno G, I dislike dying from a single hit almost as much as i dislike being bullied or picked on... Unfortunately both are pretty realistic... someone hits me properly with an axe or sword, or even a somewhat skilled person with a dagger--much as i may dislike it--I'm dead... if they are holding one in each hand & hit me with one after the other in fast succssion? I'm not just dead, i can't have an open casket... Regarless how agile, strong, (en?)durable, or skilled i may be with any form of armor--unless i block or dodge i should have more than 3/4 chance of death... well unless hit on foot or hand (but even then considering whatever appendage they may cripple makes me 1/2 as likely to be able to defend myself against getting killed with the next hit, it's not like showing me getting hit more changes anything--on a different but related note--how great would it be if a powerful enough hit to a hand makes that hand drop its item? I mean a hit to the hand shouldn't kill really unless it goes thru to wrist, which still takes a while, or thru whole arm & into chest thru shouulder--but when hit for that much damage on the hand it would be neat if you took 3/4 as much hp damage & have to drop item--how's that as a motivator to avoid pointless fights?)
to reply to the other stuff:
that last post there--umm to be honest I'm wondering with npc client [from what i'd read lately] being a real pain of late, how many ACTUALLY maxed chars are there these days... you know with that... newish stuff, that... shouldn't.. really be... discussed...y'know? --For all people know it could be balanced better already...if not, i'll admit, taking back a bit of what i said above--armor could stand to do more with regard to reducing damage rather than just blocking-- even when someone lands a very skilled hit, armor would take the brunt of the damage, or at least in some way still protect you... Tho the next hit to same spot should do a lot more... I still think armor should get damaged each time you take damage on that body region with it on and that you shouldn't really be able to repair if they get to low enough quality; it should be like cars & nylons--made to work, but not so well you don't need to get new ones each time one gets a giant hole. Even weapons should be irreperable if they have been repeatedly damaged without getting repaired between... but i'm getting offtopic somewhat again..
there should totally be trainable walk/run skills [as i think was suggested in other threads] and they should affect falling, run spped, endurance impact on stamina, & if it's put in-- the way your combat skills are affected by doing them...
not allow running during combat =feast for ulbers...When should people not be able to run?--when wearing full heavy armor...what's the flaw in that idea?--then they shouldn't be able to run when carrying it either..but it could work if it just greatly reducs physical stamina when worn compared to carried..
To lose a duel because you ran too far is a tad unrealistic & confusing, in that if you hit me & then run, i can still hurt you, but if i choose not to pursue, who really gave up? --if we run opposite ways because i misjudged where you went, who loses? --but admittedly if it's tied with certain things like entering hydlaa or oja's walls it sounds like a good idea--but if tied to boundaries there would need to be a way to know... sort of like the tutorial, a popup the first time each character approaches a duel boundary... sounds tricky, & annnoying first times, as long as it's not jut mapborder based or actual distance based it sounds good... my main issue with actual distance, assuming a liberal distance is already given, inn magic battles some would run & cast healing in hiding befor engaging again & i felt it was fair despite my inability to claim victory..
The game is absolutely coded with stationary combat in mind--that's why there are spells that have varrious ranges.. that's why the settings (tho i forget where) reffer to what presumably should be introduced later with regards to the 'reach' of a longsword vs shortsword or dagger... that's why spells are interrupted when you run but not when you walk... that's why spells that require you to be in touch range to initiate & complete allow you to not be in touch range for the time between, and thats why some npcs, once engaged in combat, give chase--better yet that's why you can run & attack while unable to run & cast spells... Jeez it should be obvious it's coded with stationary combat in mind, you shouldn't need someone pointing that out & explaining why... :devil:
Absolutely Ulbers should be able to run at 1 & 1/4 playerspeed, & turn on a dime, moreover in fact they should be able to give players death by choronary failure just by their being within your visual range if your will is too low --unless you had already cast the realm 1 brown way spell "Stones of Steel" (not to be mistaken for the combined Brown & Blue way realm 2 spell "Stones of Steel-Blue").
( :surrender: i have to admit that your suggestion falls under the thinking of a run skill--in which case making ulbers faster & more agile would be a pretty rockin' plan)
(EDIT: March 4. added bold after Nikodemus' 2nd post)
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I agree that one hit kills are realistic - for a normal person. But when you can carry 300 pounds of gold ore... it's alll fantasy so I guess anything goes. I think one hit kills should stay, it's just that they're problematic and they make duels silly.
It used to be that if you moved at all, the spell would abort. It's very new that you can walk while casting spells.
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I agree that one hit kills are realistic
Why the heck people say it and then how bad it is for gameplay. You know why it is like that? Because it is like that in RL, but the time it takes to deal the blow. Noone say about it Noone say you can't train your defence in relation to the other person skills. Noone say that the hit shouldn't happen without some warnings you realize while fighting, especially when both warriors are equally skilled.
What people say instead is for example like Zanzibar: That the world is fantasy and we can just stand few hits.
With this attitude you won't have good fight. It will be eighter like now, or the damage will be lowered, but your char will still animate like being hit, so it is what people will conclude.
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Or maybe a hit isn't always really a hit. The problem is that hit points might not actually be the same thing as health. It can be symbolic for your ability to defend yourself.
It's a complicated issue and I don't claim to have all the answers; it's just that I happen to have most of them.
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Or maybe a hit isn't always really a hit. The problem is that hit points might not actually be the same thing as health. It can be symbolic for your ability to defend yourself.
If someone rememmbered this, then i gues i was successful, while explaining it.
I wonder which option will be choisen by the devs when this will start being worked on.
I'm already convinced to this optio since the long time, because all the other have more flaws. But unfortunately the dicission isn't up to me ;P