PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Xillix Queen of Fools on May 04, 2008, 08:15:28 pm
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I have been troubling myself quite a bit about the fact that we have a small player base.
The fact that this is so makes little sense and I am ready say the community's approach to RP may be at least partly to blame.
To me one of two things must happen for us to have the new players we need (mind most devs come from players so my interest is larger than the simple lack of players)
Either we become more welcoming to people who cannot or will not rp OR we resolve to be a niche game and ask the players to find us more rpers.
I am fine with ps remaining a niche genre game, and in fact that makes a bit of sense, but if that is the case we need our players to draw on people who roleplay elsewhere and bring them back here.
as kerol has pointed out we do not have enough players to fill all the areas we already have in a meaningful way.
We need more people.
I am interested in what the community thinks on this issue. Post away!
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Maybe we should start getting free trials for other games like WoW and spamming in large area channels about PS on RP servers ;o)
But in response to the poll, Yes, the RP agenda does limit the players we will attract heavily, alot of people (and this is shown in game frequently) dont give a dam about RP. But then, pretty much everything about PS does limit players interest also, too many good friends I have met in PS have become bored and moved on :o( (but that stuff cant really be helped on a volunteer project). Considering that we are aiming at a global crowd and the amount of prospective players is as near to limitless as you can get, I think our player base is pitifully small ;o(.
What to do about this? I honestly dont know.
Probably, as you say, keep it niche, or change something (the thing I dont know is the 'something').
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all i will say, is that if you try to get away from the niche of RPing to get a larger playerbase, then you'll have to rethink your whole game model/engine/mechanics, as they certainly do not appeal to the average player, who holds no regards for simple things like proper English, or treating people with respect and feel they have the ability to do whatever they want becuase 'this is the internet. lolz".
just my opinion anyways. :)
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I am not advocating such a change.
I am curious what people think.
I am also very curious about the cross section that say rp is NOT costing ps players.
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I agree with Xillix, our general style of RP doesn't make it easy for new players to become involved with the community that easily. It becomes necessary for new players to almost force others to RP with them.
What I mean by that is that they have to walk up to someone and actively start an interactive conversation with them, to get to know them and become part of their RP niche. Most new players find this hard to do, which means they are reluctant to try. If we were more welcoming to new players and tried to incorporate them into our everyday RPs and not focus so much on the players we already know, our player base will grow.
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I am also very curious about the cross section that say rp is NOT costing ps players.
guess I should have included what option I voted for. It was "no".
I personally believe that the reason the game has the amount of players it does is not due to it's foundation that RP is top priority, but more the fact that this is a game that is no where near even a solid beta type state.
:)
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While having a RP oriented environment may exclude people who are not interested in it at all or rather think of as stupid and therefore choose not to play the game, that is, in terms of product strategy, a defining element of the game. It will indeed limit the amount of players we will have to a fraction if compared to other more mainstream PKing, guild-warring, leet-speaking games but focus is a strong brand strategy and proven effective in many occasions. In terms of brand management, PS still has a good way to go but it already has a fundamental part: it's identity.
Players leave or stop playing for many reasons. Some we discussed here (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32147.0), specifically regarding role play. However, what would help us attract more players, I would say, has more to do with management and marketing than the product, the stage of development, RP or the community. PR efforts and advertising are a major factor in attracting new players and marketing plans play a major role here. I do not know how we are doing in that front but it might be relevant to assess that area of the project. I suggest doing a SWOT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWOT_analysis) analysis. While it is a rather basic tool, it is helpful since its simplicity makes it very user-friendly.
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Firstly, I would like to ask how is it with advertisment and other games - how is it with Runescape? I dont know much about it, but as far as I know thats also "free"? They also dont advertise it in any way? Are the numbers of players comparable?
Either we become more welcoming to people who cannot or will not rp
I dont think so, the more I wonder if its, which is only my own personal feeling, the sort of hybridal state of PS, which may lay some importance on roleplay, but with its elements to as well encourage PLing, it may let people "taste blood", and finally they run off to WoW or alikes. I at least know of quite a number of people who left for WoW.
So if its considered to be a niche game, then I would as well and subconsequently suggest to give increasing importance on roleplay.
That starts with unique items. Sure its all nice and fine to have an item that only exist 3 times in the game, but whats the point of it? Regarding roleplay it doesnt make any sense, in contrast it boosts the feeling of "leetness". Then people want more of it.. finally the number of different items in the game isnt enough anymore and .. well, you know.
Levelling.. spend incredible amounts of time into levelling. Soon you can run around and cast spells most people never have seen ever. Leetness. Same thing.
On the other hand, whats with roleplay? Where is it encouraged? I mean.. Donari once suggested to have roleplay have some solid impact on the game, positions, guards, vigesimis and whatnot. Without wanting to discuss that suggestion, my point is, that roleplay per se just has no significant impact on the game, it wont help to gain spells and stuff, nor will it let you earn cash or experience points (yes I know, currently).
To sum it up: Planeshift is meant to be Roleplaying game as one of a kind. So forget about players who would join without any intention to roleplay. If you are that, dont take it offensive now please, that deperate to hope for PLing people to join the dev-team, in the end the team will consist of original players who never had any idea nor interest in roleplay, and the game will decay to a poor WoW clone.
My vote goes to hell, although I always willingly try to involve people who apparently "still arent roleplaying", for they may find interest about it. So, "To hell" in terms of aiming at the game's future development.
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In some ways, yes, the focus on role play does cost players.
Although more of what drives people away is a combination of things, rather than simply 'role play,' for instance.
I haven't been playing for several weeks now, it's kinda dropped off for me. If anything I mention has changed in these past few weeks, by all means let me know.
Here are my reasons for not being on more often:
1) Role Play can be touchy
- Although role playing is abound, and yes, that is the suggestion of things to do when one is looking for things to do, my schedule isn't written down. Planeshift doesn't get its own little three hour category during my day. School, work, house crises, those take major importance over computer gaming. Thus, I don't want to leave people waiting for me the next day if something IRL comes up. So, I don't long term role play, which would be more fun. I do, however, like my day-to-day activities as my character.
- People can be major jerks. Rush in, comment on your intelligence, creativity, then leave while saying, 'This RP sucks major and so do you.' You can have a thick skin, but it still upsets the RP going on. Can't change that, but it's an issue.
2) Issues with things to do
- Quests are fun, but it would be nice to know how 'difficult' a quest will be, as the more difficult, generally the higher reward. I don't care about it being too tough, I only care about it being too easy and end up spending time getting 100 exp and an octa, where I could've done the other quest and received 600 exp, 2 circles, and some pack rat trinket. A comment by the npc on your ability to handle it, perhaps? Based on similar things like how you can examine a creature.
i.e. 'Hunt down various materials for me.' (program looks at average strength/difficulty of monsters that give the materials, measures against player's stats) 'Looks like it should be a cakewalk for you.'
- The economy. This is where I spend most of my time. I like crafting materials to sell to other people. But, it's very shaky on when I can actually sell things, and how much I can sell them for. I'd really like to be able to sell extra things to the NPCs, so I'm still working and doing stuff, but can offload when selling to players gets spotty. But selling a Steel Stock for 60 tria isn't worth it at all.
- Killing monsters can be fun, but it's really hit or miss for me. Either I kill it in 1 or 2 swings, or it kills me in 1 or 2 swings. It's then very difficult to level up my skills when these things happen, so then I end up using other weapons on the weaker monsters to level up, say, armor. Or, I use completely broken (q1) swords so I don't kill them immediately. Not to mention the times when the monsters are 'impervious.'
- Lack of group activity. Although people can work together on matters of the economy, or role play, going out a-Viking and killing monsters is really a 1 person job. This is up there with the quick kill mosters (either the monster or you). I'd be all for increasing monster's HP or armor, but decreasing their damage.
The average on-line player (in my experience) does have the ability to role play. But, sometimes you want to take a break and there should be things you can fall back on.
Hope that this helps idea wise.
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I'm only playing this game because it (promises to) focus on roleplayers and doesn't go mainstream. So I picked option "To hell with non-roleplayers" Though I wouldn't put it that harshly. I just like the game because it focusses on a minority group I happen to be a part of.
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I chose option three, be more welcoming. Mostly, though, it was the least objectionable option to me; not that any options were offensive mind you except maybe the snarky (snorks?) one. :) I think a major problem with the game is the non-standard license but I am not suggesting it be changed as that is a non-starter. For me, I like this style of game and since I only use Linux this is one of the few free games available. I think there may be more people like me but the licensing causes the games profile to be restricted in the open source community. With a gpl type license you may well find much more support there.
Really then I think the major problems are visibility and the slow pace of development. There are a few who are more critical of the less well played characters but they are fewer than even a year ago. Perhaps I just do not see them anymore. But if you look at the success of the WOW or NWN role play servers it is hard to put the blame on the role play focus here.
Well ... you did ask ....
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After the disaster with the moved market today, I wonder if limited imagination and tolerance cost the roleplaying members, and the not-much-roleplaying members will stay... So the roleplaying focus may get removed by the players, the opposite of the asked question.
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I believe that the roleplaying focus costs players. But I am willing to live with that. PlaneShift should stick with this focus, it's the reason I play it. If it would be like any other mmorpg, I'd not play it. Of course you could easily change PlaneShift into another R* and have masses of players, but I think quality goes first, even with a lesser amount of players.
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I and Aturon tried to set up a monthy market.http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32351.0 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32351.0) Lessons learnt. Such things wont work out. Instead of participating people just flame on you and seek for every tiny reason to nit pick on you. First market was on plaza and people complained about lag. Second market tried to be held at gugrontid and after reading the reactions about that I hardly feel like taking part there. The market at gug is dead, no rp going on there. Now we have a weapon only market as we had every day at plaza.
The problem with rp in planeshift is, that you have to many compromises and many older player are just lurking on some reason to nitpick and roast you in flames. Lesson learnt, market dead. You only can rp in a very tiny way. As soon as you try to do something usuall you get flamed.
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Zwenze, critic isn't to put you down, but to perfect your roleplay. We are trying to aid you to make your roleplay events as perfect as possible, so you can look back at them and say "Wow, that went well.".
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Zwenze, critic isn't to put you down, but to perfect your roleplay. We are trying to aid you to make your roleplay events as perfect as possible, so you can look back at them and say "Wow, that went well.".
How are you so perfect that you can perfect other players role play? Here let me nit pick you. That should have been "criticism isn't to put you down." Just because it did not go like you think it should have doesn't mean that they thought it went wrong. It was their role play, if you do not like it do not participate.
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I am not suggesting we change the rp focus, as much as stirring players to get off their duffs and bring us more rpers, as well as be more open minded and spend more time with newer players.
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Prolix, it is nice of you that you assume my roleplay is perfect. I don't know how my roleplay got that perfect how you think it is, so I can not answer your question. Besides, flaming me isn't going to get you anywhere. My suggestion did not imply me perfecting the roleplay of others, we as a community can achieve that. No person can know everything, and mistakes happen. That is why we have such a lovely community that is willing to point out mistakes straight away, instead of merely keeping them in mind and ignoring the roleplay. We want roleplays where everyone cares to take part, and where everyone wants to join in. That is why we voice our opinions so often, even if they are rather negative.
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Honestly, do you believe that PlaneShift's focus on Role-playing is costing it players?
I'm sorry, I don't believe that the current skills and training system encourages RPing or encourages RPers to use it. To attract more RPers, this ought to change. - making the gap between those who do train (to train doesn't automatically mean that they don't RP) and those who don't, smaller.
Or maybe I should call that gap "The gap between mechanics-users and mechanics-opposers."
If you don't click buttons hundreds of times, you will stay the same forever.
Based on that oppinion I don't feel right to vote here.. or at least I wouldn't know which answer to pick.
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Well pardon my testiness, the weather is quite unpleasant.
I do think that all-inclusive roleplays are not particularly the way to go as opposed to a set of unconnected contemporaneous role plays are more appropriate. If role play is a discouraging factor then it is the tension within the community between the various philosophies of role playing that makes it so.
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I believe that the roleplaying focus costs players. But I am willing to live with that. PlaneShift should stick with this focus, it's the reason I play it. If it would be like any other mmorpg, I'd not play it. Of course you could easily change PlaneShift into another R* and have masses of players, but I think quality goes first, even with a lesser amount of players.
/me agrees completely.
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I voted the third option here, but I don't know if it's worded the way I want it to be. The problem with encouraging something "new" to other people, such as RP, is that it needs to be done in a way that doesn't alienate others. It is like giving a PS3 controller to your grandmother. Ultimately, I'm not sure if it's a community thing or a user interface/mechanics thing. When people come to PlaneShift, the first thing they see in-game is the tutorial world. They don't interact with anyone unless it's on the IRC channel or on the forums, and I really hate these forums.
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in MB the player base was 20 in he early days, then it was 60 before CB. In CB it came to almost 250, but i think it stopped at that not because of the bug, but because the features PS offers are enough for that player base. I mea people online at the same time. Because playerbase is of course bigger, but the "people online at the same time" is what we speak about.
Why don't I play PS daily. First i tell something about some other popular game.
GW it was a lot fun at the beginning and now it is just boring. I completed one major campaign and doing it for the second time would be boring, though i may complete the other campaigns. But after that there is nothing to return.
PS is different - there is always something to come back, a hope it will change for a better, that there will be always something unique. I don't really play now because all what was interesting about it, currently burned out. There is the promise of a world a player can make a difference in, that they can shape the reality. The only groups of people, guild people can shape are thievies or some kind of protectors and all kinds of groups who will never have real inpact on the world shape. All the possible changes and achievemnts will be all gone with the players, though maybe they wouldn't leave if the other was true.
The oldest currently active guild - DE is there since so long, that many devs discovered PS later, yet I think their storyline isn't going in game in the slightest (though maybe i just don't know :s). The setting is developed completly undependently Once the setting known to players was so small that they had to create something to hang for and RP around. Maybe it is enough now, but then you have one reason why many of the oldbies aren't there anymore, I think.
In PS people can't own and manage piece of land/structure, maybe not yet, but it is a major element supporting RP but also something bringing playerbase. Something what people can care about in game, something what will stay even if they disappear.
The game mechanics are also a key factor(not that the above is not about game mechanics). A realistic fighting system along with progression one (developing your char). I will say it again, if you have a high rank in fighting this indicates only your ability to strike hard, but there is nothing in it about defending yourself. Completly unreal, this isn't making people to stay. People also like to influence their chances in a fight not only through stats, but also dynamic actions they perform during the fight. Like in GW there is the concept of abilities you perform to give bosts for your regular attacks.
Another key element is the ability for repetation. Something what people may repeat and still be interested with it. I'm not speaking about killing the spawning mobs, but something much greater. Something involving actual thinking, obligatory teamwork and challange. It is repetative, because it is what is programmable. Programming something for one occassion won't enjoy masses of people.
well, thats it (below is a list not along its importance level)
+ storyline and place for players inside it they can enjoy and influence
+ creation of something bigger, what can be improved and managed, fought for
+ realistic game mechanics supporting their RP actions (thy are not very RP supportive right now) (non rpers will just enjoy they look real and maybe see why RP has sense. Besides there is bunch of people who like to rp within game mechanics)
+ repetation, planning, teamwork, challange, competition.
of what other people said
+ honest advertising of what they game is really offering, not what it is supposed to be, so people won't be disappointed and tell their friends.
+ tutorial, the first steps a player makes in the world, maybe, never did it in PS, but it is important.
Many of these aren't in PS yet, because they just arent there yet. But i believe when they be there, there will be more players, just like it went from MB 60 to CB 250.
Omg, the pool is unanswearable.
Yes some people cant rp, so they can't understand PS and leave. If i answer this, i conclude we shouldnt rp that much in PS? not an answer for me.
No coz PS can still strongly support RP, but to enjoy wider audience
Of course, the community can be always more welcoming, but then it is about game mechanics too.
we can send everyone not rping to hell, but then they will never learn and player base wont increase.
I can snork all the time, but first it would be probably a good idea to know what it means, haha.
No many people
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Well, here I am again. I mean this in the best possible way and I am not trying to tell you how to run your game or attack anyone for what is.
I voted to be more welcoming, just in case you had any doubts on which way I might be leaning. :-\ Overall, my experience here has been less than perfect for a newb. If I wasn't so hard headed, I'd have left a long time ago and just said the heck with this, it's not worth my time. The game you're creating though, has too much potential. If you are worried why you can't seem to grow, I would offer one suggestion; Open up your information base. Keep the focus on roleplaying, that's great, accept that it will hinder you some, but develop an understanding with your customers. I would suggest you build that understanding through openess, and not just tell new players to go around begging in game for information. That flies in the face of everything we've gotten used to since the internet age arrived. Game guides are all over the place. Trying to stop it is like holding back a flood. I do understand you need to keep some things hidden, but as your game grows and you have more content, consider moving the line a bit and letting more basic information out.
If you want a world to thrive, people have to understand that world. There are things you want us to find out through trial and error that we should know the day we create our characters because those characters would have grown up in that world and seen many of the things every day that are confusing us, the players behind them. Our characters have been around a while in game terms, we the players, have not It takes a lot of time to understand a world well enough to role play in it. Discussions need to happen, and people cannot be afraid to talk about subjects that may be taboo. Allow some speculation to take place here on the forums.
Just my two cents worth. I am not asking you to dumb your game down or open up the database (though it already is). The focus on role playing is fine, imo. Just open up a bit on what is important game information that should be expected to be learned vs. what might be common knowledge for a person growing up in Yliakum might have.
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The oldest currently active guild - DE is there since so long, that many devs discovered PS later, yet I think their storyline isn't going in game in the slightest (though maybe i just don't know :s).
Settings is intending on integrating guilds into settings and vice versa. Won't say how of course ;)
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I will asume that (1)the question implicates that the focus on RP is recent or that (2)some things have been done to increase RP recently.
Since the game main description refers to a role playing type, I'll go w/ the second choice.
Now, if some things in the system/mechanics have deliberately changed in favor of RP, then there is the problem and of course it's costing players, me included.
Don't get me wrong, if you are a PS regular for a year or so, maybe you could recall that I used to RP a lot, so scrap off that idea! I enjoy RP too.
It's hard for me to number all things changed (in favor of RP) but what was wrong with RP before? I mean, it's a simple question.. honestly, what has changed RP-wise?.. nothing! well, except for the intro, which I'd advise to leave out of discussion cux not working properly atm.
Then, why?... why must a system be twisted to improve something that was doing fine? Where you comparing this game with others at that moment and decided you wanted MORE RP? these questions may seem out of context but no one speaks of it anyways.
I don't RP anymore (and of course enjoy less PS playing ) because IMO RP is being left as the only choice and by doing so, some great RP seeds have died. Seeds like something actually happening to our characters without any conversation, aproval, authorization, etc!. For those who read these forums constantly, sorry to repeat this: I've seen gr8 RP evolving from actual actions and few good ones from simple conversations. Nowdays, our chars are embeded in an unpenetrable protective 'bubble' so, no matter how trained/weak you are, don't worry.. nothing will 'happen' to you in PS. just words.. so , you can be as disrespectful, gracious, elegant, arrogant, fun.... as you wish. Many players have left for this single reason: All my efforts to evolve my char can be trashed by other's words, because nothing can be 'done' about it. Of course, there are hundreds of reasons.. it was just an example.
For all readers, sorry for the long post. For all repliers, don't pick on phrases, please try to focus on the point of the whole and make a good discussion. And if nothing was twisted on the system in favor of RP, forgive and forget.
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This is a huge flame war waiting to happen, but since it was started by a long time contributor, I expect to tone to remain more polite than if someone else had started it. I believe, based on extensive reading in this forum, that the community is almost desiring to keep this a members only club. I have had wonderful experiences in-game. I have RPed with people and I have improved my character by way of game mechanics.
The most often read criticism i hear in-game is about so-called godmodders. Those that either ignore the in-game mechanics that exist already in favor of imposing their RP will on others, or those that simply walk in and kill the entire tavern just because they said it happened. I play my character, and I interact with people as well as i can given the cumbersome tabs we have to work with. I probably frequently miss people trying to talk to me, but I do try very hard to not ignore people. My experience is that my effort is not always returned in-kind. I do not frequent the tavern and sit around simply using PS for a IRC client with really nice graphics. I am very happy, in general, with my experiences in-game.
Out of game is a whole different story. The forums are a huge source of bickering and fighting about RP and who is and isn't doing it right. I have posted suggestions on ways to improve the game and some have been well received, others not so much. There is also usually a distinct difference in the tone of those that have just recently come to PS and those that have been here a while. Those that are new are excited and usually full of ideas and take the time to share their opinions about what would make the game better in their eyes. Many that have been here longer are either coming across as elitist or arrogant and dismissing new ideas almost out-of-hand simply because they don't match their concept of the game or RP.
I understand that you probably read the same or similar suggestions frequently, but think about the fact that someone new not only downloaded the game, but played it, took the time to find and register on the forums, AND bothered to post anything at all before you slam them for a duplicate post or tell them their input is unappreciated. The most recent example on these forums is the change in location of a monthly merchant gathering. Due to technical difficulties experienced by those desiring to participate, a new location was named for this month. The "constructive" criticism included everything from telling them they were selling out to the PLing plat mining crowd to telling them they were going to be boycotted for daring to leave hydlaa and being greedy.
This attitude is not winning PS any popularity contests with new players. If you don't want anything other than RP going on in PS, then why bother wasting time on game mechanics? Create the most graphics intensive 3D IRC client the planet has ever seen and leave it at that. If you create game mechanics, expect people to use them and don't get so frustrated with people when they do.
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Please stop pointing out the obvious or arguing over and over again for the same things.
I have had a tough few days arguing with you niko and MustangNR.
Niko, prolix, whoever else we know the mechanics need work.
MustangNR we have a clear policy on spoilers I really don't want to hear another argument based on this from you or anyone else. Your argument that people are not used to this in the internet age are reasonable, however when we ask a person to go into the game and look for help I think that is fair and automatically creates community and encourages interaction.
To everyone:
There is absolutely NO doubt in my mind that there is some very ugly behavior toward new players and ANYONE who logs on and cannot role play. I am just asking that you consider this fact and make more of an effort.
ROLE PLAYING IS AN ABSTRACTION. NO WHERE ON THIS FORUM IS ANY ARTICULATE DEFINITION OF ROLE PLAYING THAT EVERYONE HAS COMFORTABLY AGREED TO.
Being as this is true all testers should look to being more tolerant and communicative toward new players.
On a softer note, for everyone here: I know I am a hard ass and come across as harsh in many cases, but if I ask for you to clarify something please attempt to. If I make a comment I want it to be read.
I really will quit posting here if people continue to cherry-pick my statements to find the one thing they can object to and quote it back to me (which incidentally I also hate because it implies i do not know what I wrote) without taking the time to consider my perspective as the most vocal and active player's advocate on the ps dev team.
Karyuu once did what I now do and eventually the poison in the well caused her to have distaste for the waters here.
I want to listen to all of you and help to bring your opinions and concerns to the devs, but if you repeat yourselves ad nauseam, if you don't read what I write, if you ignore each other or simply troll for the fun of it you waste my time.
Whether you know it or not, my time is NOT what you want wasted.
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So, this thread is about people realising they should be more helpfull towards new players so it is easier for them to RP? Well yech, would be nice.
Omg i have no words
*poof*
Please, anyone, dont blame me for anything.
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The irony of your last post, Xillix, in a thread asking why people are people are leaving, .... certainly that can't be lost on one so gifted such as you?
I'm out of here. When opinions are wrong, the thought police are next. You won't argue with me again.
By the way, read the damn material you love to throw in our faces. Laanx goes from a woman to man in the third Epoch with no explanation. Maybe you should spend more time reviewing your material and less time telling people they're wrong for questioning it.
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the community is almost desiring to keep this a members only club.
False.
The "constructive" criticism included everything from telling them they were selling out to the PLing plat mining crowd to telling them they were going to be boycotted for daring to leave hydlaa and being greedy.
False.
I've nothing else to say o/
Enjoy the game.
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By the way, read the damn material you love to throw in our faces. Laanx goes from a woman to man in the third Epoch with no explanation. Maybe you should spend more time reviewing your material and less time telling people they're wrong for questioning it.
countless threads on these forums explaining that yes, there is an explanation for it. :)
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This is almost comical. One-liners being quoted and a simple one-word answer declaring it wrong. My statement is my opinion based on reading countless posts in this forum. Simply saying "nu uh" doesn't make my opinion any more or less than my opinion.
It is very difficult to not devolve into primary school antics when encountering this, but I will do my best. However, thank you very much for proving my point in as few words as possible.
new topic...
Why are the forums required reading for the game? Shouldn't a new player be able to play the game and get a history that makes sense without having to troll the forums for hours? This again comes across as a very elitist attitude toward new players.
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don't derail threads please...create new threads for that.
thanks :)
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Mythryndel,
I would like to add that it was me to post I wouldnt participate in a Gugrontid-market. Not of any boycotting reasons, but since I cant see a reason for why my certain char would go there. Since I presumed this whole "Monthly Market" had anything to do with Arturons first thread about a market, accidentally made me assume people would know how much I appreciate that idea, because I worded it there. My purpose to say I wouldnt participate in that case may have been motivated by my actual pleasure to indeed participate.
I also think "a huge flame war waiting to happen" is making mountains out of mole hills.
Furthermore I think this whole heat tonight is pretty much influenced by that disagreement on the "Monthly Market" which increased on heat like a cascade - so why dont we lay back, kick up our feet, have a tea, chill and .. post a bit later instead of out of the heat of the moment?
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Yes, in a way, the way people RP does makes it a bit hard, but some effort is required on the part of the new player. I mean, I stayed in oja for months before even making it to Hydlaa (fortunately it is not so easy to die anymore :whistling: ) and then I spend my time mining once I finally got there. I didn't learn to RP untill like the last year I have been playing the game. It is possible to get by without rping really and without being a nuisance. It just takes a bit of courtesy on everybody's part. Everybody should treat others players like they would if it were someone standing right in front of them. You wouldn't go around randomly insulting people near you, partially because they could just reach over and hit you in the back of the head for it. Internet anonymity allows many players, old and new, to become very relaxed in the being nice catagory.
If you are new, don't introduce RL concepts while in game and just sit and observe any rps that you come across. That is how I learned. Understand that it is a process, it rarely happens over night, and it is ok to not know what you are doing at first. Nobody does.
For players who have been around awhile. Try to stop every now and again and help a random new player. It doesn't have to be long and drawn out, just send them in the right direction of an NPC or something. Also, be a bit more tolerant of people who break up an rp with an occ question. It's not the end of the world or the rp. And try not to degrade people who use shout for help since if there isn't anybody on to help them this is the instruction they get and they won't know how else to get a question answered. Shouting that they were wrong to shout solves nothing and only cause more unnecessary shouts.
If everyone tries to be a bit more tolerant a lot of the complaints would disappear. And you might make some new rp friends. I met a lot of people I rp with in this way and quite a few as newbs that were lost in the dungeon and needed help finding their way out.
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Getting back to the poll the current results are kind of interesting. "Unequivocal no" is in a dead heat with an "equivocal yes". Next in line is the RoPlards* "to hell with you" followed closely by an "unequivocal yes". Coming in last is the joke. One might assume the PoLeards** choose the unequivocal yes if they bother with the forums and to vote.
We seem quite divided on the forum. I do not see this reflected in the game but, perhaps, that is because I keep to myself mostly there.
*RoPlards Role + Play + ards suffix indicating an excessive interest or attachment vis: drunkard.
**PoLeards Power + Levelers + ards
Please do not take offense from the terms I have coined, they are meant to be humorous more than pejorative.
Edited to correct option (added un to equivocal)
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Oh noes! I are teh thought polices, I can haz afrix?
/me places afrix in the squad car and drives all over the forums reciting "You are not to speak your opinion on the forum. Move along there is nothing to see here!" over the loudspeaker.
MustangNR is doing that thing again. Hyperbole, we call it around here.
So far I see some people getting the message in this thread.
I expect some other forum magnates will have their say . . .
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*oils joints*
yes, and no. The Roleplaying focus of PlaneShift really was what held me here long after I joined for the freeness and the "MMORPG" part.
So I suggest a standoff.......
The staff implements ideas that would make it easier for some things to be done without much need of roleplaying, for a smoother experience, (I.E. noobs getting started, and whatnot...) whilst maintaining a message that it is preferred to RP. Perhaps as the new players mature into their character, they'll mix with us oldies and provide the same fun we have now. Also, those who aren't too much into the RP part of the game can go about their business without bothering the hardcore-ers. So it's kind of a mix of "play on weekends" style characters and "hardcore" style characters. Simply, it would require more in-game moderators, though.
not sure if I got all that off right >.>
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I honestly don't think that the roleplay focus costs planeshift any players, at least any that we would miss. If you take a look at other MMO's the only thing we are missing is the ton of disrespectful immature players who run around shouting in captial letters.
On a more serious note I've realized one thing.
That is why we have such a lovely community that is willing to point out mistakes straight away, instead of merely keeping them in mind and ignoring the roleplay. We want roleplays where everyone cares to take part, and where everyone wants to join in. That is why we voice our opinions so often, even if they are rather negative.
While this can be rather helpful at times it can be rather unhelpful and discouraging to newer players. Having your idea shot down by a few people when your a new player isn't always helpful and many people don't have nearly as thick a skin as they need when joining these forums. :P It is a problem here and it most likely won't ever change so we can't do anything about it but its probably one of the reasons we don't have many players.
The second reason I'd say is something I realized just today. I was minding my own busniess when a random came and started a conversation with me. To tell the truth he wasn't an excellent rper and I automatically wanted to try and find a way to get out of the conversation. I stayed because I realized part of the reason some people don't learn to rp or are not interested is because they can't find others to rp with them. We aren't always so nice or welcoming to outsiders, especially when we are in the middle of our own rps. However we should be.
Lastly I'd say we might be losing a few players because of the way rp is handled. In most games its not enforced or they have seperate rp servers where it is enforced. That or its a plain rp game in which it is hard to avoid rping. For us there isn't any enforcement, no specific rping rules, etc. Everyone has developed their own playing style and there are a lot of seperate groups in the community. Is that bad? No we all somehow still live with each other. However, when a new player joins this all can be quite confusing. One day your told something is completely fine to do and the next someone else is complaining at you for doing it. It can be fustrating and possibly one of the reasons our newer players don't stay long unless they were lucky enough to find a group they fit in.
So yeah, thats my list of problems. I doubt there is a way we could fix many of them as most of them seem like they will happen regardless of what is done. However, they are what I see as the problems.
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On the subject of new people: I think that if you really want to play this game, and play it right, you will be able to be thrust into a confusing game where you really don't know what is going on and still use your surroundings to mold yourself into a productive player of that game. I would humbly submit that I did it, as well as just about everyone playing the game today (especially before there was a tutorial). The idea of roleplay is simple to understand, as well as fun to take part in. All it takes is a bit of dumb persistence and will.
This is almost comical. One-liners being quoted and a simple one-word answer declaring it wrong. My statement is my opinion based on reading countless posts in this forum. Simply saying "nu uh" doesn't make my opinion any more or less than my opinion.
I'm not laughing...
those "opinions" you speak of don't look like opinions to me. They look like critical statements. Looks may be deceiving, though, so go ahead, make a smart reply.
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I selected "To hell with anyone who doesn't roleplay."
Personally, I never saw PS as a game that tries to please everyone. It seems to me that roleplay is a critical part of what makes PS what it is, and in fact, PS seems to be a game made solely for RPers to enjoy. People who aren't here for the roleplay can probably find whatever else they're looking for in other games, and so, if they feel discouraged from playing PlaneShift because of its focus on roleplaying, they probably shouldn't be here. As Duraza said, PS's focus on roleplay doesn't seem to be costing any players that we would miss.
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I'm sure my posts are likely to get people upset every now and then. Unfortunately for some, I call it like i see it. I have see too many threads on these forums where someone says something about the way things are in-game or makes a statement that people don't agree with, and they swarm... comments from "false" to "that just isn't how things are". The most incredible one was where a guy made a statement about RP and guilds trolling for new members using tells and such. Everyone was jumping on him about how that was just exaggerated and never happened in-game. It did. To me. 15 minutes after I got out of the tutorial. But nobody wanted to see how things ARE, they simply wouldn't accept that it was/is happening and started roasting him over a pit for daring to state something like that.
I love PS. I will continue to play PS and offer my opinions and suggestions about game play and whatever as often as I can because I see a lot of potential here. My biggest problem right now is with the way people behave on the forums, not in-game. With the state of the game right now, It can be very difficult to work through some things in-game without consulting the forums. However, when people come to the forums with fresh (to them) ideas, a lot of them get told to either fall in line or move on.
The RP focus of PS is fine, but people on the forums keep getting upset when players want to use the established game mechanics and not just use PS as a fancy IRC client. I don't hear the devs chiming in on this often, but I assume they want a GAME that focuses on RP rather than a IRC client with fancy graphics. If i am wrong, then they have spent a lot of time for nothing.
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The most incredible one was where a guy made a statement about RP and guilds trolling for new members using tells and such. Everyone was jumping on him about how that was just exaggerated and never happened in-game. It did. To me. 15 minutes after I got out of the tutorial. But nobody wanted to see how things ARE, they simply wouldn't accept that it was/is happening and started roasting him over a pit for daring to state something like that.
Please provide a URL to the thread you are talking about so I can entertain myself. I am not saying I disagree with you; as I said I really hate this forum, and what I think you're trying to say here is that it is not necessarily the community of the game that should try to be more welcoming, but the community of this blasted forum itself. I am treating the two as separate communities because you would behave differently in either one, and this literally is one of the options on the original poll. If that's not what XilliX meant by his option, then I am sorry because that is how I am reading it now.
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Some critical point is reached. Sniping ensues. The thread -- or the roleplay -- becomes a series of personal disputes. These manifest as people posting back-and-forth, endlessly, irrelevantly, ad nauseam. Any attempt to draw a line in the sand results in the tedium of analysis and argument.
There must be a framework for resolving disputes, otherwise it goes on, and on, and on. But the burden of fidelity falls upon developer and player. The professional actor always acts the role, even if they do so in character. If one starts as a peasant, one starts as a peasant. You work your way up from there. Progression must be based upon time invested in the game, otherwise it will be either outright unfair, or it will be interpreted as being unfair by someone.
If we translate the personal dynamics of forum disputes to the game world, it becomes apparent that roleplay must be initiated, maintained and enforced by game mechanics for the same reason that there are posting guidlines on the forums. And lines on the roads. The reason that this is argued against so harshly is basically always form of greed, some subjective non-obvious abstraction of game property/status/whatever re ego of player.
To finally answer XIllix's original question: It has been a combination of roleplay/settings/property disputes varying widely from player to player, combined with disappointment in unimplemented features. The tendency of players to drop out to look for other games to try and settle into, becomes the added watershed that holds the online numbers down.
But of course, all of this misses a great and obvious point. That we are still here, TRYING to have a civilized discussion and game environment. So there must be something good buried in all of this. Right?
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...combined with disappointment in unimplemented features. The tendency of players to drop out to look for other games to try and settle into, becomes the added watershed that holds the online numbers down.
Well, obviously that can't be helped :-) I remember back when I first played this game in Fall 2002, and even I didn't play it seriously. I think I was into Morrowind or Tribes 2 or text MUDs or something, and I treated PlaneShift as the kind of game to check out every few months just to see how it was going.
[trying to remain on-topic] Heck, I didn't even start to roleplay my character until uhh I don't remember, summer 2005 or summer 2006 or so. The very first time I actually tried this crap you guys call "RP" was in the arena; I decided to RP my main character Tuxide as a jerk, so I went down into the gladiator hall and stole someone else's spawn (while being rules-compliant, because spawns cannot be "owned"). And then some GM who was watching me told me (on the fan-channel) that if I was trying to RP a bully, I shouldn't say "PP" while in-character xD
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hehe, first of all: Sorry, I took the wrong button :) I clicked on "no", while I meant "the community should try to be more welcoming".
I guess most of what I can write has already been said in one form or the other, so I try to be as short as possible (including possible solutions, why it is probably longer than it should be ... :) ):
1. Newbies
Problem: They are "scared off" because they are confused. The first impression is a big world with lots of people running around, and most of these people are doing a certain business and therefore ignore everyone around.
Solution: Find a way to "mark" people according to their condition. Three or four would be enough. Examples: Every newbie has a certain symbol floating over his/her head, so they are easily recognizable. This way, older players would have a hint who might need help. And the other way round: have a symbol for people that are willing to answer questions and for others who don't want to be disturbed right now, either because they are roleplaying with friends or are doing business.
What it solves: It helps people who are in help find people who would like to help and vice versa. And people who don't want to be bothered right now are not disturbed. Easy enough to learn for everyone, I think.
2. Old Players
Problem: Their roleplaying doesn't make an impact. What I mean with this: All that can be done is done between players but when those players are gone, nothing is left.
Solution: I think what this game desperately needs is a way to "leave a trace" of yourself so to say. Examples: Make it easy for people/merchants (affordable) to buy small shops (which can be rented for a certain amount of time). Let them decorate those shops with own graphics, like banners in real world (according to RPing of course, but think about a weapon-merchant having a banner over his market-stand saying something like "...'s finest weapons - all being made by the most talented crafters" or something like that).
What I mean with this: Players interaction need to have a "visible" impact on planeshift, something that stays, even if they are not around. Otherwise old players *will* become bored over time. The impact can be a small hut, somebody owns or a shop (which is closed but still there when the player is not around. Or a non-material change (to the players advantage or disadvantage). Religion is a good example: Why are non-believers allowed to visit even the most important rooms in a temple? Or why are people who play a bad character (thieves and such) are treated by all NPCs just the same as the most kind players? This could even be extended with the "symbols" I mentioned for problem one: Invent symbols for "shady" characters and for those that are generally acting nice or helpful.
What it solves: If this world and its inhabitants reacts differently according to players behaviour, the game will be a lot more interesting.
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Honestly, do you believe that PlaneShift's focus on Role-playing is costing it players?
I don't think that the emphasis on roleplaying in particular is the reason for loosing many players, maybe just the opposite, as it sets Planeshift apart from other MMORPGs out there. And I think that is the main reason for Planeshift having a small but very loyal player base.
No, I think the slow progress of the development is the main reason for loosing many players. But I guess with the limited resources that cannot be changed. On the other hand, just like other already mentioned, the players that leave may probably be not that much into roleplaying, so the question is, if the game really looses something.
Just my two cents.
Kaityra
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It's not the focus on roleplaying, that costs players, but the way it is
done. New players quickly get the impression, that it's kind of a religion
around here (holy and fuzzy in defintion). With religion there comes zeal
and RP zealots have to much rear cover with the game contstantly reminding
you about the importance of roleplay in the loading screens and the RP drill
in the tutorial (don't know, if it is still the same as when I played it).
New players have other priorities then roleplaying. Namely getting familiar
with the mechanics and the setting. They will have questions about both and
the way they are answered are likely to affect the decission, whether or not
they will continue to play the game.
Unfortunatly, you cannot simply ask these things in the natural way, without
triggering someones [ooc] sensor and getting policed about how the mainchat
is to be used.
IMHO, a lot of good could be done, revising the /tip messages (would be easy
to do, too). Some things that would spring to mind would be:
"While this is a roleplay server, there is no globally agreed concensus on
how to roleplay. Policing other people is frowned about."
"Asking questions about gamemechanics in mainchat is not strictly considered
[ooc]. Your character knows about skillevels, but would probably refer to them
as training lessons."
"RP Tip: If someone tries to talk about reallife topics, simply pretend that
you don't understand and ask him/her to explain."
"RP Tip: If someone does not roleplay, try to give him or her a positive
example rather then telling him/her, what s/he is doing wrong in your eyes."
"The point of using [brackets] is to emphasize, something being OOC in a
roleplay conversation. You are not required to use them, if the OOC nature
is obvious anyway."
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/me track announcer:
And at the corner we have "more welcoming" by a nose over "no cost" followed closely by "to hell with you" then by "definitive price" with "snorks" trailing badly. It's a nail biter folks.
I think it is kind of sad the number of people choosing "the hell" because it is a pretty elitist point of view. It is not too far from "does not role play" to "does not role play to my standards" and the two are easily mistaken for each other. It is all very well to promote and prefer role playing but the world will get pretty lonely as it grows if the population doesn't also grow. What would be the point of building the rest of the maps if the player base can't even fill Hydlaa?
Anyway, I think this poll is intended as a wake up call to the forum denizens to think more and react less. The choices seem loaded with emotional baggage and are not neutrally expressed.
Perhaps I read too much into things.
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Prolix it would be correct to say that almost half of the options have some sort of emotional baggage attached, but it is hard to say that about "Yes." or "No."
There is both a wake up call and an earnest wish for information on my part. I have some thoughts to add when we reach 100 votes.
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Prollix... you are not alone in your interpretation of things. It sincerely bothers me when there are so many comments about either not needing new players, or we won't miss them if they can't conform, or whatever. I have not really experienced this in-game, but encounter it daily on the forums.
Tuxide... I don't recall the url to the thread. If i find it I will PM it to you.
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'Honestly, do you believe that PlaneShift's focus on Role-playing is costing it players?'
Answer: No because people manage to play the game without Role Playing.
There are three main hooks to PlaneShift, why people play
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a. The ability to 'mine' accumulate wealth, possessions, skill and then playfully posture to show off and talk about their achievements.
b. Multi-player, team play. Meet people on-line, meet friends on-line.
c. The environment. The PlaneShift world is attractive to move around in and listen to.
We unavoidably Role Play to some degree when we do any of these things.
Role Play
---------------
It's taken seriously, in varying degrees.
A day or two ago someone typed (in square brackets), that they would like to have ago at role playing but didn't know how.
New players are afraid that the Role Play Police will chastise them if they don't do it properly.
Role Playing is improvised and loosely, very loosely, based on a story thread which may have been improvised right there and then. Role Playing is literally making it up as you go along. Role Playing should not be tainted by Role Play Gestapo who insist on pedantic-to-the-letter accurate dialogue.
Improvisation can actually become hilarious. Having clean fun is what PlaneShift is all about.
Role Play Gestapo
----------------------------
Role Playing is not the problem, the pedantic-to-the-letter Role Play Gestapo are.
Coincidentally(!) as I was typing this message, with PS running in another window, someone sent me a /tell and and told me that they considered themselves a 'Strict Role Player'. They wanted to know why I had done something that violated their story line... a few days ago!
My reply was/is: As polite as possible :: Mind your own business! I mean that most sincerely folks. Mind your OWN business, Mr StrictRolePlayer!
:-)
There AREN'T any no-go-areas in PlaneShift. If you consider yourself a strict Role Player then you will have no problem improvising around the unexpected.
My Role Playing activities are fun, not drop-dead-serious and my description certainly highlites that.
It's just bolox to impose pedantic-to-the-letter Role Play rules on people (within reason of course).
Using the communication tabs, there are enough ways to limit interference from non-strict-role-players if they are interrupting your play.
However, I for one would be disappointed if Role Players started to use the Group tab to talk among themselves. I enjoy evesdropping on them and occasionally trying to get involved.
Role Playing IS fun but stops being fun when the Role Play Gestapo get involved.
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It sincerely bothers me when there are so many comments about either not needing new players, or we won't miss them if they can't conform, or whatever.
I have tested some other MMO(RP)Gs out there. In most of them roleplay was nearly none existent. And you really know how hard it is to roleplay if you seem to be the only one interested in it. I mean there are plenty MMO(RP)Gs out there for those not interested in roleplaying. Why not have one or two MMORPGs for those with a stronger interest in roleplaying without others, who are not interested in this type of game, destroying the atmosphere of the game? Maybe that explains why some players (including me) say that Planeshift does not "need" the "wrong" kind of players. Please note the quotation marks in the last sentence before putting a sling around my neck.
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I do wish people would stop using Nazi terminology. It completely demeans the discussion and makes the people using it look ignorant. If you do not like the terms I created -- Roplard and Poleard, for role players and powerlevelers respectively -- use something else. I really hate having my side of the argument marginalized because some people have no sense of proportion.
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The problem being the terms fit. The manner of enforcement, the attitude, the whole package fits. I can't help the connotation that goes along with those terms, that was defined long before I was around. There is a band of people, largely on the forums (and possibly in the tavern) that behaves in this manner. I don't know if they are all part of the same group, or just happen to have the same way of talking down to everyone that isn't RPing the way they are, but they are here, and they are very active on the forums, and it is simpler to use a single word that people have some concept of rather than having to invent and define new ones.
What I find interesting about a lot of this... is that the people that are the most vocal about calling people out are not the devs... are not the settings team... but players that think they own the place. What gives?
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Voted no, because i think it's not because of RP that PS does not have a huge player base :
_ the game is still in alpha/beta/whatever, and while it's a very appealing game because of the RP plus all that's specific to PS (i love the music, the quests, and many more), it still lacks features, objects, more maps, and still have too many bugs, to draw a lot of players.
_ Not just because of the RP, but the way PS is (real interaction with npcs (not just to be clicked and i get a quest of bringing him back 100 rat skins), quests that are really well-thought and interesting (most of the time :D), the great people and RP, and more that i forgot for now), it is not a game that it's simple to get into. Thus the small player base.
I think Xillix's comment about PS being a niche game is right : while PS could draw more people's attention in the future, with more features and less bugs, i don't think it will ever get a very large player base, at least not in the near future. Lots of MMO players are just stupid teenagers whose (thanks Prolix ;) ) preferred comment is "60k dmg, pawned you, lawl". I hope i never see such people here.
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as I said I really hate this forum
Why are you still here?
The problem being the terms fit.
The terms do not fit. This forum is not a group of "RP Nazis". Whatever you may think, RP is encouraged. Look at the great RPs that have started up in the past couple months: The Market, The Games, HoG, just to name a few. I know this has been said before but apparently it takes a few hundred times for it to get pounded into your skull: there is no discouraging of RP here unless it completely disagrees with the settings. Yes, i can hear it now, "But the settings are wrong!". Yes? What decides what is wrong? What decides what makes sense and what is inconsistent? Just for example, the sky could be friggin tie-dye and i would accept the simple explanation of "Thats just how this game is." The rules and laws in this game DO NOT have to be plausible or consistent with the rules and laws of the world we live in.
Just go with it.
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Shoot, I'd check all of these buttons off, but if you are asking if role playing is costing PS the "most" players, then no way, if anything it probably keeps more players than it loses.
This is how the game is advertised:
http://www.planeshift.it/about.html
So this is why you should assume that most players are trying PS out. Now given this type of advertising, it should be fairly easy to look at all the stats, all the downloads of the clients, the installs and registrations, the length of stay in game, average activity, etc. and you can figure out most player's patterns.
I think just by the concentration of players at the pt mine and the arena, shows you there is not enough depth to the game to appease a bigger base, yet. I concentrated on the quests for the first few weeks, but that got old and tiresome, so I decided to try this role playing thing everyone was arguing about. I joined a guild, chatted with some regulars around the area and the game actually improved for me and now I plan on sticking around for much longer. I hear more complaints about game mechanics/dynamics (lag, impervious monsters, etc.) and that affects role playing more than anti-role players, in my opinion. And I think it is a given that everyone should be more welcoming, not sure when "the community should be less welcoming" would ever be an option? I don't think that means you go around welcoming everyone, I think that means more role playing. You don't have to be nice, just be your character. That is the best way for people to learn, to see how it is done, and if they stumble, then help them out. If someone walks around for a week and never gets greeted or acknowledged, then I can pretty much guarantee they won't be there for much longer. That is if they are in the game because they read the "About" page...
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I'm not talking so much about RP in-game, although the fact that people are critiqued in-game by "strict" role players is yet another example of what I am talking about. I am talking primarily about the forums. If people dare to say something that doesn't fit with the view held by those I have referred to in this "derogatory" way, they swarm them, flame broil them, and all but tell them that they can take their opinions with them and don't let the door hit them on the way out. This is not only rude, but completely uncalled for. People take the time to comment that they could either be using to play or do any number of other things. There are occasions where they are simply complaining, but usually it is an attempt to improve areas of the "in development" game.
[Edit} Quoted from the About link above "We decided to open it to the public because we want to have your feedback on improving the game". This means that the DEVS want feedback, even if a handful of posters on the forums don't. This tells me that those responsible for coding the game do desire feedback, and are or will be miffed if they see people being chased off because of incredibly negative feedback on the forums.
[Edit 2] RP is "encouraged"... A lot of the posts I am referring to would only be seen as "encouragement" if you believe that 6 big guys jumping you in a dark alley and telling you they don't like your shoes and NEVER to wear them again, is seen as encouraging people to dress better.
Just out of curiosity, how exactly is it that the "strict" roleplayers are supposed to get Q300 weapons and such if there aren't people in-game that are taking the time to make them? NPCs can't sell anything higher than Q50 (by game design) to encourage players to craft items. Why is it that so many people get upset when players choose to explore the game mechanics instead of sitting around the tavern BSing all day?
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Sounds like you understood, Mythryndel: Neither "strict roleplayers" nor "strict crafters" nor "strict powerlevelers" could make PlaneShift a game worth to play. Players with a compromising playing style must exist. So they deserve a bit of freedom to find their personal limits in each degree of freedom this game offers. And if their trials scratch the limits of the "average player", we can only hope that there is a bit of tolerance on both sides.
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LigH... exactly!
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First a comment about these polls: when I open a new thread and see a poll, I am often firstly interested in how many votes all options got. This means I (and I guess others) may vote without thinking too much, and before noticing the 5 pages of comments. This may explain the high number of "to hell" votes, as well as mine :) Maybe a more serious tone or less funny options may give a more accurate result.
Honestly, do you believe that PlaneShift's focus on Role-playing is costing it players?
Yes.
Some people will definitely be leaving because they get the idea it is not ok to just have fun playing the game. This includes those unable to spell without using numbers, so I personally do not mind.
No.
Other players will come and stay because of role-play. My guess is these out number the no's.
I think the community should try to be more welcoming.
This may be true for some. Both in game and in the forums. I notice my answers in the help channel (has been a while as well that I advised) and in the forum and bug reports sometimes get a bit less friendly, when I spent much time answering the same questions and closing the same bugs, when I could be spending it in solving bugs, or making reports better. Let alone spent time in game. I also notice this with others in the forum. So I can see Mythrindils point. I do not really know how to fix it though, and Mythrindils tone certainly does not help either.
To hell with anyone who does not role play.
I think people who play this game for a while and still use OOC talk all the time, might as well leave. Not sure if that is what is meant here :). I don't like the suggestion someone gave of labeling new players with a big mark above their heads though :)
Snorks.
Well, since either all of the above applied, or non at all, this one did make the most sense :)
One remark about 'roleplayers'. I see three types:
1. players trying to get as much as quickly as possible, not noticing they may be disturbing others with OOC talk.
3. players role playing most things (only using levels when they have them)
2. the 95% in between, training some skills to get nice items, be able to cast fun spells, drink a lot of beer, do quests, annoy NPCs by asking difficult questions, talk and have fun with others, all the time trying to stay in character.
There are many type 1 players in the world, most of them in other games. You may get many new players by making it more fun for them (by allowing leet speek and introducing a floating number over their head indicating there leetness). There may be much less type 3 players, but they seem to like PS. Not much to win there, except pointing those who are lost in other games to Yliakum. There are many players of type 2. They may try out PS, some stay, some become type 3, some leave. They leave because the game is not as finished as they hoped (after reading the description of 12 races, etc), get bored because there are only a few ways to progress (some crafting combined with fighting, mining combined with fighting, or just fighting, but no magic at all). My guess is that there is much to win by making more different ways of life possible (i.e., no need for having high level in swords to get PP to learn crafting or magic), spent some time balancing (so level 40 in crystal will make some things at least easier to kill than with level 5 in melee), and improve the stability of NPCs. Luckily a lot of progress is being made. There is cooking now. Also, last weeks I see many changes to the code by Khaki, Xordan and others that I am guessing is making the game much more stable, and possibly less laggy.
There another page of comments to scare of new players ;)
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as I said I really hate this forum
Why are you still here?
Because I haven't been banned yet? Because I'm a fan of the game? Because I see myself needed here the most now? Because nobody else here knows how to behave on this blasted forum? [on-topic] Because "I think the community should try to be more welcoming"? I am not trying to start a flamewar or anything, but I am done everywhere else, this forum is really getting on my nerves, and I wish to do something about it. I am not leaving until I am done here as well.
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Are the forums really that bad? (never mind don't answer that because then off topicness will happen) I must be missing something ........
I have put in my vote. I think people leave for different reasons. I don't believe it has anything to do with the roleplay and more to do with the drama that sometimes rears it's ugly head in this community. That could be blamed on differences in ages and different cultures, point of views and power struggles.
I do wish people would stop using Nazi terminology.
And this I fully agree with. YES please! These "RP Nazi's" are not as plentiful as players like to think or exaggerated. X-/ Gesh ...
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[Edit 2] RP is "encouraged"... A lot of the posts I am referring to would only be seen as "encouragement" if you believe that 6 big guys jumping you in a dark alley and telling you they don't like your shoes and NEVER to wear them again, is seen as encouraging people to dress better.
There is no doubt that such a thing is encouragement, just perhaps not the most positive kind.
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Hmmm. Interesting quandary. My answer would have to be... Yes, it drives away some. No, it is not the reason the community stays small. The community could be more welcoming and to hell with people who will not respect roleplaying once they are here and learn the ropes (that includes those blasted Snorks).
People who like the PvP, stuff getting, and action of WoW and such leave because PS does not deliver on that aspect, not because of the focus on roleplaying. If the game was fun for them, they would stay despite having to leave their l33t behind. You will find that people are very adaptable and compromising when it comes to something they really enjoy.
To give an honest answer, I'll have to say the reason roleplaying people leave is not because of a focus on roleplaying, but rather a lack of emphasis on it. Yes, it is touted as a 'true' roleplay game. Yes, there is a strict naming policy and restricted use of netspeak and OOC. Yes, players have the ability to become skilled in whatever they wish without restrictions. This does create the base of a good roleplaying atmosphere. However, once ingame... the well dries up. Level up. Do all the quests. Join guilds. Make friends and enemies. Partake in small or grand RPs. Get rich... whatever. In the end, none of it really matters to anything but the other players you know. The world does not change to acknowledge that your character accomplished anything, be it large or small. You are left with the feeling that what you do as your character does not even matter. The fact is that it does not.
Gamers (Plers, PvPers, whatever) want to have all the best stuff, do all the cool things, and their name at the top of the high score while having fun doing it all.
Roleplayers, on the other hand, want their actions to matter (and have fun, of course).
Most people are a combination of the two, so it takes them a bit longer to see that PS does not quite have what they are looking for on either side before parting. Some people are happy enough with this, and just enjoy interacting with their friends without the help of game mechanics or mattering to the realm. Those, by the far majority, are the ones who are staying. As I see it, anyways. I have been known to be wrong on occasion.
Other people (RPers and Gamers both) leave because the player to area ratio is off balanced, making the world seem rather empty and lonely. Dropping some of the road maps might help with this, encouraging people to travel more between towns. The 'alpha'nes' of the game drives other people away, either because they can't run the game well, they don't like that it is not finished, they can't find enough to do, or do not like the quality of some features.
As the game is still in alpha, many of the above things will change as we progress. However, the above reasons are why the community stays small right now.
The biggest reason of all? 99% (yay for made up statistics!) of the people who would love playing PlaneShift have not heard of it yet. I have talked to many people who have said something like: "Roleplaying is dead in 3D MMOs, and they cost too much, so I stopped trying and went back to MUDs and PnP."
Me- "Have you tried PlaneShift?"
Them- "No... what is it?"
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The layers of systems that comprise the game are complex, making it an unwieldy but beautiful and fascinating beast. It has successfully achieved a number of things. The uniqueness of the settings, the coherence of the artistic style, the detail of the writing are alluring. So is the NPC interaction as far as I am concerned. Other games will have this sort of system in the future because it -- the NPC system as envisioned -- will be so interesting to interact with once it is fully populated. The beast is available on three operating systems, which is impressive by itself. I could go on.
Before any of the things we are discussing here could ever have been discussed, let alone resolved, the system had to exist. It needed to 1) allow for these interactions between people that we call roleplay and 2) be successful in creating a real experience that is important to the players. That was achieved and a community formed. Like a crystal, a gestalt, a coven. Mechanics, artwork and other content have been added in a steady trickle ... and serious work on the underlying codebase continues as time allows.
But there is more... quintessence, synchronicity, karma, fate, initiation, revelation, catharsis, epiphany ... call it whatever you will, but there is a magical dimension to the dynamics of this world and there are plenty of past and present players who have experienced it. It is this quality that defines whether or not the system is successful. It is. Because of this, people will always return. There is an ebb and flow to the player base here, it will continue forever.
By the way, I voted for being nicer. I mean it: be nice to people! There were all kinds of bizarre ideas running around in human history about how the world was formed or what it was comprised of. None of it meant anything to the world, which was always, most stubbornly round while the arguments went on.
Moon, the distinction you just made between gamers and roleplayers does not make any sense. They all want their actions to count. What one considers as counting varies from player to player. Not to mention that the "gamers' you mention are the very community that this community draws from. Duraza has mentioned playing console games before, should I fault him for it? Or anyone?
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Nothing I said was against gamers. I do not know where you see that. I am a gamer at times, if I find that aspect of the game to my liking. I am a roleplayer in PS because I do not like the gaming aspects of PS. If you read what I wrote, those are the two extremes, and I said most people fall in the middle of the two. For 'mattering', what I am speaking of is worldly settings/story things. Becoming a part of the greater story. The far RP side cares about that over 'getting stuff', while the far gaming side would rather just get stuff and ignore the story. As said, most people fall between the two. Both are welcome by me (as long as they are not rude). My distinction stands firm.
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The far RP side cares about that over 'getting stuff', while the far gaming side would rather just get stuff and ignore the story.
Well said, UtM. That is clearer... and that is the nexus of the crisis. The origin of storms.
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I ordered a special pair of daggers once.. I RP'd the whole thing. The deal, the exchange, the place to do it, the timing, etc. All was role-played (or expressed in my character's way to do it) but I added something extra without suspecting it would spice things up: I paid in advance!. And those were no cheapos.
One of my guildmates was 'lurking' around and in a not-so-swift move, gained domain of an object.
My deal for the daggers was 'kidnapped' as a result of an attempt to balkanize (c*) the situation for it was a member of the crafter's guild who was robbed.
Some of my guildmates believed that escalating this issue was in order and I should pull some strings to evolve in a guild-scale conflict. I had a meeting with the counterpart's leader and I just told him/her in other words: "We have a deal prior to this nonsense. No matter how long it takes, we both know I'll get my daggers.. even after the war".
Eventually, I got my daggers which carry the inscription of the crafter (of course) and is my second most valuable set of possesions. (even if that guild, crafter, leader and even my ex-guildmate are long gone from PS). btw, sorry.. there was no war.
It took a long time IG to finish that deal, lots of RP, meetings, uncomfty encounters, grinding, etc.. to make it short: fun!
I brought up this example to illustrate the meaning of 'actions' that lead to RP. My ex-guildmate never said a single word (typed). When I read the poll, I wondered about the meaning of 'focus'. And I thought it meant that the game itself (the settings, mechanics, etc) were since some point being twisted in favor of RP. This is something I'm not sure of, but I think it's true.
And I consider this to act in contradiction with the 'nature' of the game or at least with some parts of it.
I don't believe in scripted RP. I've seen some great efforts to articulate a storyline by some groups or guilds but I cannot say those were great RPs. Geez!, taking advantage of the fact we haven't come to an agreement of the meaning of RP, I'd dare to say scripted RP is no RP at all!.
Even on the heading of this post I find a great definition; Role-Play: To express your character's way to be. --
I still, after reading the full thread, believe that 'focusing' the game into RP is wrong and that of course, has driven some here and there away. But hey!, it's kinda complicated to ask why some people move from one place in the place itself. And tht makes the poll automatically biased. Just try to mind-count some of the players that are gone because of this. How many?.. 20, 10, fifteen? .. well, they are not here to say so, right?. Xillix, I suggest you to consider this when you compose this thread's requiem.
And finally, for those curious enough, my most valuable possesion is the infamous SACKHEAD! go figure..
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Some very good comments while I was at work.
I have this to add: Lots of MMO players are just stupid teenagers whom whose (grammar stop : is it whom, or what else should i use here?) preferred comment...
Whose \Whose\ (h[=oo]z), pron. [OE. whos, whas, AS. hw[ae]s,
gen. of hw[=a]. See Who.]
The possessive case of who or which. See Who, and Which.
[1913 Webster]
19 more votes until Xilly tells us the method of his madness.... Get voting!
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Zwenze, critic isn't to put you down, but to perfect your roleplay. We are trying to aid you to make your roleplay events as perfect as possible, so you can look back at them and say "Wow, that went well.".
Well, I was setting or one or two events where many players said "Wow, that went well." Looking back that was because those where spotanious events and no one tried to improve them by criticising them to death. People took part, had fun and ignored the flaws that where wider then the abyss in bronze doors. An event that is enjoyed by people, like the "Rise of the Kra" event maybe one year ago [that one was enjoyed by rpers and plers at the same time] is not to be improved by nitpicking and complaints. You are hardly able to do anything in game because you will get criticised for the most rediculous reasons.
Seriously, this is a gmae and its there so that people can do stuff in this world and having fun. But planeshift has changed a lot since I play. You hardly can set one foot in front of another without considering, if that step is against the settings and how many role-players will complain. Playing under such conditions is not entertaining, its just exhausting.
TBH, those events that you may consider as broken beyond repair might be considered as entertaining fun stuff. I am sick that every thing you are doing in this game must be prepared with scientific acuracy nowadays. Looking back, the role play in the events could have been imroved. But thats for the cost of spontaneousness and entertainment. I just feel exhausted and frustrated that every role player thinks he has to improve how i role play and try to do an event. And to be more hinest, to me it seems the intention is not to improve anything. If I see several posts fired by a hand full people within a few minutes that only deliver dismissive comments and accusations then i hardly can buy the we-want-to-help thingy.
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Seriously, this is a gmae and its there so that people can do stuff in this world and having fun. But planeshift has changed a lot since I play. You hardly can set one foot in front of another without considering, if that step is against the settings and how many role-players will complain. Playing under such conditions is not entertaining, its just exhausting.
Ok, quite frankly I don't see this ANYwhere in game. This I think is blowing it way out of proportion. Yes there are RP nazis, but there certainly aren't enough of them to make the game less enjoyable for me. And to be honest, it's quite possible to NOT let them spoil your fun.
The problem I see with the roleplaying is it tends to be a very selfish act. What I mean is most characters (not all) enjoy being the central pillar to a given RP. What we as players need to do is properly recognise our roles in the RPs. Any RP will become less enjoyable if it becomes an battle for attention. Sure we all would LIKE to be the hero in the story, but since there are about 100 other players seeking the same thing we just have to let the story decide. This means players need to have both respect and tolerance for other players, even if they have not yet fully grasped the ins and outs of RPing.
The other problem I see is that for some it is actually quite difficult to include new RPers into their RP "circle" so to speak. What we need to do is learn to step back from our characters and let them live without our own emotions and desires getting in the way. Even the most hard-core roleplayers do not yet fully understand the concept of their characters being completely separate from ourselves.
The bottom line is that it is very difficult do RP and keep everyone happy at the same time. Peoples RP styles are always going to clash, battles for attention will always take place. The important thing for each player is to not let anyone spoil your fun. If something happens that obstructs the flow of your RP, improvise and move on. It's all about adapting to unexpected events.
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I do wish people would stop using Nazi terminology.
I second that and I'm even going further by asking that such comments get removed because they are insulting. Most of the people using this terminology have absolutely no idea what and how the "Drittes Reich" was.
Kaityra
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People who like the PvP, stuff getting, and action of WoW and such leave because PS does not deliver on that aspect, not because of the focus on roleplaying. If the game was fun for them, they would stay despite having to leave their l33t behind. You will find that people are very adaptable and compromising when it comes to something they really enjoy.
Truth be out, and this'll probably get me banned. :'( but I am also the guild leader of a fairly large guild in WoW. All that you mention kills WoW as well, and people leave all the time because of that damn l33t attitude. I have members level to 70 and then stop playing as soon as they hit that wall and realize that there is only PVP awaiting them, and that kills our PVE aspirations because we can't seem to get them all coordinated at the same time. It's one of the main reason I'm here, because I can't stand the direction WoW is heading, which is nothing but PVP. The affect WoW has had on the market that is probably affecting you is that they set a standard for MMORPG's that you are being measured against. They dumbed the genre down a ton, and the direction the market is going is to simpler PVP based systems and less on hard core PVE. Look what happened to Vanguard. There are also a ton of people out there who can't stand EQ because of what Sony did to it, and quite frankly, PS is more of a clone of EQ than anything. People will come here, realize that PS has the same frustrating quest dialog engine that EQ had, and will just leave. After WoW threw all that out for a menu driven quest interface, a lot of people are never going to go back to this style. I hate the menu driven system as I'm sure most of you do as well. It has lead to a completely useless PVE experience for most people who just click their way through quests to get to the reward. I hated it when it was first introduced in Baldure's Gate, but at least there you had choices that affected your characters development. Your quest log is a great step towards supporting the engine you have at least.
If you could create a really good dialog engine with NPC's, you would have something that would hold people here. No one likes to deal with an NPC that does nothing but tell you they don't understand. This will be a big challenge for you to overcome, and I hope you do it. I would suggest looking at some of the technologies in speech recognition as an assist, if you're not already doing so. There are some good tech's out there that may make the job easier. It will not be easy to do what you want. The amount of language you will have to support is staggering, but a good phraseology tree can go a long way towards making it a reality.
I will say as a newb here that I haven't experienced the RP police. I do my best to stay in character, but I'm still defining who that character is as I learn more about the game world. You have to give people that time to learn the world, but no one has come up to me and said I needed to roleplay better. That's probably because I am not in the higher end parts of the game. I would bet that most people do not leave because of this reason because they don't stay around long enough to experience it. They leave because the game is in alpha, and given what I've seen of the server and game so far, you aren't ready for a massive influx of players. You are about where you need to be for the game world you have. As it gets larger, the game gets better, you will grow accordingly.
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Lol, i don't think being a WoW player wll get you banned ;) but i know what you are talking about. I recently have played Guild Wars to the fullest extent of its PvE. I got sick and tired, though, of all the updates and such being for PvPers. So, i left and came to PS and it was quite a relief. The game is almost completely PvE, yet theres always a duel going on somewhere.
As far as the NPC engine goes, there are currently only a few people working on it, so changes come slowly, and understandably so. I really don't want to see a menu quest system, but having many more different options of phrases that will be accepted would be nice. Just have to sit back and, once again, say "Coming soon(tm)!"
The RP Police? Hmmf, i heard they don't exist, just some crazy idea to scare us ;)
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If you could create a really good dialog engine with NPC's, you would have something that would hold people here. No one likes to deal with an NPC that does nothing but tell you they don't understand. This will be a big challenge for you to overcome, and I hope you do it. I would suggest looking at some of the technologies in speech recognition as an assist, if you're not already doing so.
Why the one-place-that-is-under-the-moon would speech recognition (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y_Jp6PxsSQ) help? I know this is off-topic but natural language processing and speech recognition are two very completely different fields in AI. I don't mean to disparage you, but I'm not too sure you knew what you were talking about. I'm a graduate assistant researcher and my field is in natural language processing so I would know. PlaneShift-the-engine uses synonym rings, or synsets defined within the server database, and the only way to improve NPC dialog is to expand the synsets by either adding more words to them or to generalize the query dialogue using something like Porter Stemmer or Soundex.
And no, saying that you're a guild leader on WoW will not get you banned here. It probably would on WoW though, but I don't know. That-place-that-is-under-the-moon, last I heard even acraig plays WoW so he would know.
Edit:
My thought was that in speech recognition, sooner or later you have to take the spoken word and decode it and pass it into a recognition system to figure out what was said. We use it in the training system I support, but I don't do the speech decoding myself.
OK so you do know what you mean. But I don't know, literally talking to NPCs sounds rather silly in my opinion. If PlaneShift-the-engine ever did this then I wouldn't want to be caught playing such a game in an airport. This has gone very off-topic so I will stop here.
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Why the hell would speech recognition (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y_Jp6PxsSQ) help? I know this is off-topic but natural language processing and speech recognition are two very completely different fields in AI. I don't mean to disparage you, but I'm not too sure you knew what you were talking about. I'm a graduate assistant researcher and my field is in natural language processing so I would know. PlaneShift-the-engine uses synonym rings, or synsets defined within the server database, and the only way to improve NPC dialog is to expand the synsets by either adding more words to them or to generalize the query dialogue using something like Porter Stemmer or Soundex.
Settle down. It was just a suggestion and no one is saying you don't know what you're doing. My thought was that in speech recognition, sooner or later you have to take the spoken word and decode it and pass it into a recognition system to figure out what was said. We use it in the training system I support, but I don't do the speech decoding myself. We use an engine where all we have to do is define the phraseology that leads to an input into the logic systems. It's not that bad and is very easy to use. Under it all, is probably the tech you are referring too. All I was saying was that there may be some techniques to leverage off of there, "if you aren't already doing so", which it appears you are, and I wish you all the best with it.
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I may be the exception to the rule here, but I know exactly what a Nazi is and was. I am second generation German living in the US. My Oma was born there and lived through WWII. I have also taken several years of German in school and translated from the original, Anne Frank Diary. THE SHOE FITS. Sorry the PC environment doesn't appreciate this. I am not trying to say that all RPers are nazis. But in all seriousness there are a few that behave this way, and it tends to kill discussions on the forums. Fortunately I haven't encountered one in-game yet.
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Mythryndel, I understand the point you are trying to make, but maybe we can make our points with less inflammatory language for the sake of the argument.
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/me thumps Tuxide with the Stick of Use Less Why-the-hell's when commenting to other's suggestions.
I have pondered over voice to text as well (and text to voice), so it is not an outrageous suggestion. Not something PS can do itself, but there are other programs that could be adapted to work on someone's own computer if they wished and had some ingenuity.
The hardest part about making quests and NPC responses is figuring out everything players are going to ask in every way (as the syntax is based on phrases, not keywords), and answering it. Even with an easier to use keyword system, we still have to come up with all the answers in a meaningful way for each NPC. That is why we need players to tell us what they are asking that does not work. As a Dev, when you know about everything behind the scenes sometimes you overlook things that someone who does not would ask.
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/me thumps Tuxide with the Stick of Use Less Why-the-hell's when commenting to other's suggestions.
OK fine I change it UTM to a more general location of where hell is, since you are totally asking for it xD Enjoy. Now we really need to reword the fourth option in the poll as well.
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But I love the fourth option, it is so telling!
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I think you are Mything the point about the Nazi comments. When was the last time you literally had your door smashed in, got dragged down to a forced labor camp and ultimately gassed by a role player? What? You only had your feelings hurt by an insensitive comment? Ohh Boo Hoo Hoo, suck it up!
Continually trivializing the legacy of the Nazi Party serves only to aid those who would see it return. Were they the worst group of people in history? I guess not, they are rivaled by the legacy of the Communists, the Spanish Inquisition, and many others. Is it appropriate to casually slander people with the term? Not at all. Give it up or lose any credibility you may want.
I know you Wormtongue, get back to your master Saruman! :@#\
Only 14 votes to go I know we can do it. Maybe we can get Xillix to forgo the rest if we grovel properly...
Xilly! Xilly! Xilly!
Now I am getting pretty Xilly! err silly.
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Sounds like you understood, Mythryndel: Neither "strict roleplayers" nor "strict crafters" nor "strict powerlevelers" could make PlaneShift a game worth to play. Players with a compromising playing style must exist. So they deserve a bit of freedom to find their personal limits in each degree of freedom this game offers. And if their trials scratch the limits of the "average player", we can only hope that there is a bit of tolerance on both sides.
yes, yes, and yes! now seriously, this is the truth of the matter.
There must be a certain ammount of freedom for both. Not a completely game-distorting ammount, but....enough.
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Prolix... you think i was over the top??? I am not trying to trivialize anything. There was a lot more to the group everyone dislikes me mentioning than the concentration camps. They didn't start out that way. They started out as a positive thing. They were pro-Germany. They had a very positive view of the country and it's people. They were very proud. They started with the children (read: newbies) getting them to tow the party line. It was only later that they started silencing people who disagreed. It was only AFTER they had the majority opinion that the few in charge could fully execute their agenda. The National Socialist party was around for a LONG time before they started requiring people to register their status and sending people away. Apparently the later exploits are all people remember about them though. Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The prevailing attitude i dislike seeing is people being overzealous about protecting PS and it's strict roleplay environment. What they don't seem to realize is that they are killing the environment here on the forums (and possibly in-game, but Yliakum is a lot larger place than these forums so I haven't bumped into them there). They seem to be trying to squash any opinion that is not pro-strict-rp. There are a lot of players here for a lot of different reasons. There is room for all of them, and all of their opinions are valid. Please keep this in mind when posting.
I don't believe that the strict-RPers aren't or shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinion. They just tend to make a lot of people that don't agree with them feel unwelcome and that they should just go away. They are like the scenario i posited before about jumping the guy in the alley about his shoes. They are ganging up on the newbies and berating them into either NOT RPing at all and therefore silencing them forever, or discouraging them to the point that they leave. Neither option is positive in my view. Nor can I see this as "encouraging".
[Edit] I suppose I should be going to cry now, but I think i will just bash down Prolix door and... Gotta love the personal attacks people dish out. You make my point excellently though. I am apparently not welcome here in your eyes.
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I think Neko should be given the mandate to lock threads that mention Nazis, Hitler or the Third-Reich. This is in accord with Godwin's Law. Its just not a good comparison to use because it causes discussions to suddenly veer off into a political area that is best kept away from Planeshift.
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/
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myth, calm down.
I agree with a lot of what you said, and even some of the characterization.
Prolix has a point though, and while I too have used the terminology of rp nazi, to refer to some here, I now see the merits of avoiding this language.
For the sake of keeping this vital argument clean and allowing people to express their views let's avoid flamey flames
I am very curious to hear from more people who voted "to hell with anyone who does not rp" as well as those who voted yes.
If it helps the thread try to direct your commentary at me instead of each other for the time being.
Sh*t, now someone has evoked godwin's law! The thread is doomed! Vote fast!
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I picked "To hell with anyone who doesn't RP!" Thanks for putting that in there. :D
This is an RP-based game, is it not? Follow the rules of the game! You wouldn't go into a football match and use your hands....(don't say anything about a keeper ;)) So, don't play PS if you have no intention to RP...
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I really can't tell you how little I care about the language references.
But I can tell you I'm fed up with that stuff!
I suggest that some moderator should delete all posts or partial posts or whatever with undesired content (including this one if necesary).
I find hard to believe that someone who has the knowledge to derivate such language references is unable to find another word to express such simpleness.
English is not my first language. I try really hard for being understood by you all. At least show some respect for me and please focus on the thread.
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This is an RP-based game, is it not? Follow the rules of the game! You wouldn't go into a football match and use your hands....(don't say anything about a keeper ;)) So, don't play PS if you have no intention to RP...
There is a difference between asking players to correct their errors, or to send them to hell. Are you sure you think the latter will get a better increase in player numbers?
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Hm, can I change my vote from No to To hell with anyone who doesn't RP? I really don't see the point in playing a game meant for RP when you're looking for hack 'n slash. Just doesn't make a damn bit of sense. When I looked for this game, I read that it was meant solely for roleplay, and that's why I joined it. Its purpose would be destroyed if PVPers were allowed to do as they please, and it would only become some crappy free-to-play RuneScape-ish game.
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If you choose "to hell with..." ... Does that mean PS is losing players cux of RP focus or not?
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If one is looking to hack and slash so bad, then they should play WoW. If it is the free game they are after, they should go to RuneScape.
Coming to a game designed for roleplaying and insisting that it conforms to their standards of hack and slash is just foolishness. To hell with them! Planeshift shouldn't change to match RuneScape because some want it to be another RuneScape.
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Hm, can I change my vote from No to To hell with anyone who doesn't RP? I really don't see the point in playing a game meant for RP when you're looking for hack 'n slash.
So I repeat:
There is a difference between asking players to correct their errors, or to send them to hell. Are you sure you think the latter will get a better increase in player numbers?
With the addition that I did not mean this as 'increase numbers by allowing non-rp', but as in that it is better to correct their ways (and make them become non-hack&slash players that stay enough in character for you to not be annoyed) instead of sending potentially good rp-ers to hell :)
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I find it rather interesting the number of Roplards posting. I wonder how many of you actively report bugs in the game mechanics. I suspect there are whole swaths of the game some of you ignore because all you need to do is walk around, chat and roll dice. If all you do is role play and do not test then a case could be made for "who needs you!" After all "testers first, players second," right? I am not saying this should be the prevailing sentiment just that it could be. It is no less offensive than "to hell with people who don't role play."
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With the addition that I did not mean this as 'increase numbers by allowing non-rp', but as in that it is better to correct their ways (and make them become non-hack&slash players that stay enough in character for you to not be annoyed) instead of sending potentially good rp-ers to hell :)
Well, potentially good RPers doesn't count... Only people who won't even try to roleplay should go to hell. ::)
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This is an RP-based game, is it not? Follow the rules of the game! You wouldn't go into a football match and use your hands....(don't say anything about a keeper ;)) So, don't play PS if you have no intention to RP...
There is a difference between asking players to correct their errors, or to send them to hell. Are you sure you think the latter will get a better increase in player numbers?
Well, i saw that answer as anyone who doesn't RP (but is able to and should know how), to hell wit' em...
You make a good point, but i keep my answer. And yes, perhaps the latter will keep PS a great Rping community, which is a huge plus, for me at least.
With the addition that I did not mean this as 'increase numbers by allowing non-rp', but as in that it is better to correct their ways (and make them become non-hack&slash players that stay enough in character for you to not be annoyed) instead of sending potentially good rp-ers to hell :)
Well, potentially good RPers doesn't count... Only people who won't even try to roleplay should go to hell. ::)
Can i getta amen?
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Hmm well, I reported a quest typo today, and had it fixed. What have you done? ::)
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Wanna have a tester fight? ;D
I'd lose though, i never report typos cuz i cant speel ;)
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Hmm well, I reported a quest typo today, and had it fixed. What have you done? ::)
\\o//
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"To hell with anyone who doesn't roleplay."
This, to me, simply means: It might or might not cost the game players (I know it will cost players) but in my opinion the Devs shouldn't really care about that. They either make a roleplaying game or they make just another game.
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This is taking forever to get to 100, guess I'll login my two alternate characters and vote "snorks."
By the way, :offtopic:, the RFC in my guild forum post means request for comments. Have at it. It sort of seems a bit on topic here of course as it is an attempt at a logical role play being totally ignored by all the Roplards! What's with that?
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I voted snorks cuz I already voted seriously with another account.
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What bilbous said goes for me too.
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I find it rather interesting the number of Roplards posting.
Must be that all others are busy leveling :). I do not consider myself a Roplard, but more of an example of someone who likes to play the game (try out some crafting, do quests, talk with NPCs and players), and was helped when starting to play to do this in a way that does not annoy others. At least I hope. So my character (used to) spend most of the time 'on the road' doing quests, exploring new areas, trying out new crafts, waiting to pick up alchemy :), stopping often to talk with others, and hanging out the rest of the time drinking beer. Most fun I had were things that were organized by others on the border of RP, such as Proglins tournaments (bumping into one was the thing that got me hooked to PS), the big war in trepor valley, Explorer guild's HAGS, gambling games.
I wonder how many of you actively report bugs in the game mechanics. I suspect there are whole swaths of the game some of you ignore because all you need to do is walk around, chat and roll dice. If all you do is role play and do not test then a case could be made for "who needs you!" After all "testers first, players second," right? I am not saying this should be the prevailing sentiment just that it could be. It is no less offensive than "to hell with people who don't role play."
Actually, I prefer "player first, but tester as well" (my personal opinion). Meaning everyone should have fun playing the game, but not forget to report problems they encounter, and not getting too upset when something bad happens due to bugs. Being one of (too) few members of the testing team I spent most of my time now going through the bugs, and "tester first, player once in a while" seems more accurate for me :), but I think the game would benefit more if a larger number of people would play the game (using game mechanics or just sitting in the tavern until your client crashes). I do agree that you are also a tester and should report though.
I voted snorks cuz I already voted seriously with another account.
You are devaluating my vote! I voted snorks as all/none of the above, not to get to 100 votes :)
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You're making a mmorpg and focusing it on rp...
...
Of course that'll score you few players!
The genre is all about hack&slash. Most people that play mmorpg's look for the stats challenge, fighting with other players, slashing monsters, guild wars, casual chatter and stuff like that. Who cares about role-play?
The people you aim for grow up on tabletops and on MUDs. They don't need fancy graphics and most of all a 3D world.
Add to that many MUDs are actually free, and it seems you're competing with games that have more features, much more mature player-base, insanely large worlds and a greater role-play focus. And you have graphics. Again, how many role-players actually care about these?
Oh, and I do believe many role-players will choose a commercial mmorpg over Planeshift. Otherwise, why would the commercial mmorpg's host entire rp servers? I think it's some recent trend or something.
So yeah, you're making a game that is ought to be a niche one.
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There are most things said already... there are a few points that are still remarkable for me.
I think the roleplay focus doesn't provide us more players, but ones that tend to stay here longer and maybe be more loyal (correct me if Im wrong). Though I regard the players as players and not as testers this is probably also a plus from development point of view. Players that play the game for a periode of levelling and then leave again doesn't bring the game forward.
If we try to make the game more attractive for players that are (only) here for levelling etc. Im not even sure if this will provide us more players (Independent from how much the community wants the majority of the players to be like this). Playing planeshift has for me three major advantages: free, OS independent and roleplay. Other games have better graphics, engine, better whatever... and maybe is even free. So why take planeshift when other games fulfill one's needs better..?
But actually I think we can combine the advantages of more players and roleplayers/long term players to some extend if we are more welcoming to new players. How many of the roleplayers started as powerlevellers or at least non-roleplayers? I was happy with having a free mmorpg running under linux to stay long enough to get introduced to roleplay.
I think the players aswell as the game should try to introduce new players and potential players to roleplay and we hopefully get this way more (role)players to let this niche game grow.
Sen
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Before I get into some analysis of the specific numbers of the poll I want to make a bit of a statement about what I think of polls. Polling is at best a snapshot of a group of people at a specific juncture in time. It is not reasonable to draw from a poll generalizations that apply to long spans of time. The results expressed here are only a minor reflection of an aspect of the community RIGHT NOW.
This poll does not have ANY scientific pretensions. I knew that the way certain things were phrased would be somewhat leading and there were intended pitfalls in the options to help me to illustrate certain points I wanted to make about the community. Also however, these numbers do bear a narrative. To me, the results of this poll indicate both some positive trends and some dynamics that I would really like to change with the help of the community.
Question: Honestly, do you believe that PlaneShift's focus on Role-playing is costing it players?
------------------------------Yes. - 13 (12.9%)
To XilliX it is beyond the shadow of a doubt that planeshift's rp focus does cost it players. If I had expressed myself in a conditional way as some in the is thread have, asking something like "Does planeshift's role-playing focus cost it any players that the game would want to keep?" I am sure this would have been a more solid no, I might even have agreed to an extent. I have had numerous people tell me they have quit due to people "policing" how they speak in game.
The settings team made a large effort to include some instruction on how to respect "roleplay conventions" which were established by the players in the tutorial itself. The work on the tutorial is continuing aggressively as I type this. The entire gm team and Rizin are on it now. Our having adopted the conventions of the players should be seen as a way in which we are trying to insulate the new player from the kind of chiding they receive in game for not adhering to what is recognized as rp etiquette in game. This is not to say that the tutorial grants a tester any right or any official sanction to chastise other players about how they speak.
Someone in this thread brought up the idea that "roleplay is encourgaed" it is important to focus on this; roleplay is "encouraged" not enforced. Any guidance toward a new player should be gentle and not matter of fact. It is very certainly a fact that we want players to role play, but we also want to provide a friendly atmosphere for those who will only embrace rp when they discover that rp is appealing. No one is doing a good job at encouraging rp when they start "judging" the rp of other people.
-------------------------------No. - 31 (30.7%)
This answer I find either completely mistaken or less than intellectually honest. I am not saying there is any intentional dishonesty in those who firmly believe the rp focus is not costing ps players, I just hope those people will be open to my arguments throughout this post. I have confidence that people come here get scolded by someone and leave, not only never to return, but also certain to post a negative review somewhere due to how they were treated by their fellow players. I will admit we lost the single largest cross-section of players to the incomplete state of the game, but the fact that we lose any potential future rpers to the didactic tone of one player to another is something the whole community should be wary of.
-------------------------------I think the community should try to be more welcoming. - 28 (27.7%)
You think? :) to me this is a big no brainer you can look at the fact that 20.8 percent voted for the option below and easily see that there is an attitude present on the part of some role players that is unbecoming toward other styles of play. It does not serve the game at all to be elitist in regard to its roleplaying focus. It is and will remain a bastion for roleplayers, but this does not mean that it is ok to be rude to more casual gamers.
As a passionate and committed developer I am calling on the community to work very hard to be more welcoming. I feel as though I have recruited everyone I can from the current community and this indicates to me that we MUST increase the player pool. I earnestly need the player community to help with this by trying to exhibit more patience with incoming players. That "Pling (btw I still HATE this term) loudmouth that refused to rp" may well be the genius coder who figures out great ways to reward rp via game mechanics, or they may be the brilliant artist who finishes all the races, but we will never know, because most of those people quit before they come to love the game or the community enough to get involved. Sure in many cases this does not happen, but the dev team has more than one person who was focused on game mechanics who joined us and did wonders for the game's development.
How we behave (I know I can be the biggest asshat in asshat-town sometimes so I mean me too) on the forums and irc is huge in this regard. We must work on how we talk to each other here. Not just dev to player, but player to gm, player to player, dev to gm, gm to dev, Talad to team and team to Talad. Across the board I think we can all communicate with a bit more grace.
I have seen a very marked tendency for people to argue a lot especially around rps that have been done. The same is true for gm events. Everyone has their two cents to put in on everything. I offer one advice: start with what you did enjoy about someone's work before you dig into them. It is always easier to take advice from someone we believe respects us and has our best interest in mind, than to take advice from some scathing jackass who is out to prove how smart, witty, deep, intelligent, they are. It is easy to dismiss someone who is advancing some personal agenda we individually do not agree to. Establish a common ground, define your terms, then argue with civility
When we fight about the definition of good roleplay I feel that we all must realize their is no objective definition, that the topic is elaborate, and that every assertion is subject to debate. Taking an approach that is more open and positive in tone is essential to furthering not just PS, but what it means to rp in the 21st century. It is always hazardous to make such a claim, but I believe PS is uniquely positioned to help to define the direction of roleplaying over the internet in the next years. Haughty? Sure. To me however this is an ideal we should at least consider shooting for.
-----------------------------To hell with anyone who does not role play. - 21 (20.8%)
I have a hard time believing that fully a fifth of those polled allowed themselves to fall into this category. IT'S A TRAP!!! should have been labeled in this question. This statistic illustrates to me that at least among those commenting on the forums there is a solid core of very judgmental players who are willing to FIGHT for rp. This is not all bad at all. I am glad we have some very passionate role players. I do want to point out however that this attitude may in part inform why some people stated in this thread that they hate these forums.
The attitude expressed here is completely antithetical to what I identify as our goals in this community, to build a game that is legitimate competition for all mmorpgs on all fronts, but more specifically as the premier mmoRPg. Just because PlaneShift has an intention of becoming the most rp focused of supposed "roleplaying" games does not grant license to damn players with interests other than roleplaying. It does no service to PlaneShift for it to be known as a pocket of crazies who will be rude to anyone who does not roleplay.
Having worked for a couple months on Public Relations for planeshift I can say with certainty that the attitudes of many people here are an extreme turn off to people who cone to window shop PlaneShift (this is not just the players but the devs and gms in some cases so don't feel as though there is no introspection in my saying so). We need to assure that everyone and ESPECIALLY those who voted for this option make an effort to be more welcoming to new players.
I think it is somewhat alarming that one in five players participating in this poll would make such an intense statement. What do you think are the odds of a new player encountering someone who things they should piss off because they do not or cannot rp?
-----------------------------Snorks. - 8 (8.1%)
I always include a joke vote because I would rather have people who don't care about the argument at hand enough to vote seriously to vote for something flippant. In this poll I did not do that: "LONG LIVE THE SNORKS!"
By way of a last word (for this post) I want to thank everyone who has participated so far for their contributions to this thread. I believe we have taken a good snapshot of views about the game here. I think we have also seen some good arguments for various view points played out here. Looking forward i would like all of us to do our best to get new players. MUDS and other types of rpg games were mentioned, I will start a thread at some point about strategies we might use to draw good rpers from these outlets into planeshift. I do think we have a shot at being a forerunner among 3d mmoRPgs and we should look forward in that way. Remember always that how you conduct yourself toward new players is their first impression of the community.
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The attitude expressed here is completely antithetical to what I identify as our goals in this community, to build a game that is legitimate competition for all mmorpgs on all fronts, but more specifically as the premier mmoRPg.
Sorry, but I don't think that this is realistic. I can only advise that you have a look around the MMO(RP)G-market and see for yourself what other games offer in comparison with Planeshift. In my eyes Planeshift is years behind of what is state of the art.
You can try to follow mainstream but you sure will have to face serious competition. Or you can offer something special and get your share of people who are interested in this and couldn't find it in other games. The problem with roleplaying is that just a few players, who do not follow it, are enough to spoil the fun for other who are into it. Just my two cents.
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Hear, hear. It is the community that can make people stay despite the bugs or the long way to go before the game is finished as well as the reason why people leave with a sour aftertaste in their mouths. Still, there are many ways players can make this a better community (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32147.msg369645#msg369645).
I do think that, ultimately, it is the people behind this project (devs, moderators, game masters, testers) who need to lead the effort to recruit more players (with PR, advertising, focused and professional moderation, etc.), while the community tries to be more welcoming. We all can help out from where we stand.
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I prefer that we not defer responsibility for expanding the game to the devs.
I am not compensated, I have no more interest in ps than someone who was once a player who decided to volunteer to make the game better.
I think the community should be absolutely allied to advancing the game if they want to fight and fuss about what needs to be done to improve the game they must take an active roll in making those advances possible.
We should not foist all responsibility for advancing the game on the volunteer developers.
My hope is that people can see that participating in the quest to build a free mmoRPg is a goal we all hold in common regardless of the level of commitment from person to person.
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XilliX: I couldnt agree more with your long post. which makes this a very short one :P
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A very good analysis, Xillix. As someone who recently fell into the "some scathing jackass who is out to prove how smart, witty, deep, intelligent," category, I did sit back and try to find out why I fell into that trap so quickly. Time and time again, what I noticed was that lead in sentences had so much to do with it. So many times, the initial statement had a harsh criticism in it, both on my own part and from others, but I just bit at it and ignored all the other things that were said. I think we all do that, so I would just like to add that when communicating with others, pay close attention to how you start your replies. Flame wars start with that first spark. Build up your arguments first, then maybe the person you're talking to will realize what a jerk they were being before you even have to tell them. Sometimes at least. ;)
I do believe you have a few challenges ahead of you to reach the goals you are striving for, some based on your design choices, some based on your community decisions, but overall, PS is progressing very well from where it was a few years ago when I first came here The competition is pretty fierce. You do have the advantage of being free, and that can be hard to beat. The best part, you're multi-platform. As M$ continues to kill demand for Windows PC gaming, you could be well positioned to be the next big thing... on Linux. :thumbup:
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I think Xillix's analysis is spot-on.
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I think people play PS for mainly three reasons:
1. Roleplay
2. Powelevelling
3. Chatting ICly and/or OOCly to people
I have seen many people losing interest in PS and leave for other games. Mainly those only focused on 2. and/or 3.
I, myself play PS because of a mixture of all three and I think many share this attitude. The community I know is usually very welcoming, although I, myself, sometimes feel frustrated after spending hours showing people around, then see them leave for WoW.
However, here are some observations, that might help:
- I agree, the area of PS is too huge. Too much space for too few players.
- However, the spots where people gathered are few:
- Some gather at the mine. Those are usually PLers and hence chatting is mainly OOC, even in main.
- Some gather at the arena. Same here, I seldom find IC speech here.
- The rest usually gathers in the plaza or taverns. A good place to find the roleplay naz.. I mean fanatics :P
I somehow am dissatisfied with the PLers, who fight for no IC reasons, sometimes. I also dislike the RP fanatics who create a char every week and give them supernatural powers while never training a thing. I try to be somewhere in between, which is an attitude not many seem to share. This might be the reason why it is difficult to find someone to rp/fight with. I also think that the settings limit me in my actions as a player, because fighting is not allowed in the cities, where the crowds gather. The area outside town walls is usually very empty and only travellers can be found there.
Summarizing: I think people actually are leaving because of the focus on RP (I vote 'yes' for that reason). But do numbers count? I think there should be a way to make our few guys stick more together in some areas and thus enforce interaction (with maybe less limits).
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I earnestly need the player community to help with this by trying to exhibit more patience with incoming players. That "Pling (btw I still HATE this term) loudmouth that refused to rp" may well be the genius coder who figures out great ways to reward rp via game mechanics, or they may be the brilliant artist who finishes all the races, but we will never know, because most of those people quit before they come to love the game or the community enough to get involved. Sure in many cases this does not happen, but the dev team has more than one person who was focused on game mechanics who joined us and did wonders for the game's development.
Case in point: I had no idea what real "RP" was before starting playing the game. If it wouldn't have been chance that I met nice people that were willing to put up with my stupidness, then I probably wouldn't have enjoyed playing so much ad would have left long ago. And then you wouldn't have me as your moderator.
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Still curious about what others have to say, perhaps we will give this thread a couple more days to live before locking it.
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I earnestly need the player community to help with this by trying to exhibit more patience with incoming players. That "Pling (btw I still HATE this term) loudmouth that refused to rp" may well be the genius coder who figures out great ways to reward rp via game mechanics, or they may be the brilliant artist who finishes all the races, but we will never know, because most of those people quit before they come to love the game or the community enough to get involved. Sure in many cases this does not happen, but the dev team has more than one person who was focused on game mechanics who joined us and did wonders for the game's development.
Case in point: I had no idea what real "RP" was before starting playing the game. If it wouldn't have been chance that I met nice people that were willing to put up with my stupidness, then I probably wouldn't have enjoyed playing so much ad would have left long ago. And then you wouldn't have me as your moderator.
Same here. Planeshift was my first official MMORPG (EVER!!) and i had never experienced any of the gaming culture or tendencies before this. As i waited for my download, luckily i thought of reading the PS site and trying to understand the settings, RP, etc..so i -did- come into the game with at least a tiny idea of what to do. However, it was actually a PLer who "took me under his wing" so to speak and showed me everything about the game. He took the time to show me around, to teach me the ropes and even introduced me to some good friends that i still maintain now. So I entered PS as a PLer, and thought nothing of it..since i was surrounded by many people who were PLing as well, i didnt really see a lot of RP, and though i knew i technically -should- be RPIng i didnt see it so i didnt think anything of it. I also did not know the difference between brackets and no brackets, or any of that, so i was fairly clueless when it came to RP. Eventually, however i was introduced to RP and it intrigued me completely. I have been blessed (or cursed) with an overactive imagination, so the plots and schemes that i started to encounter definitely pulled me away from PLing and transformed me into a sole RPer.
So even now, when i may encounter someone who uses "LOL"s and "OMG"s in mainchat and who talk about "pwning" Ulbers, i may inwardly cringe a bit, but i do remember my first teacher and just smile. I also know several people in game who may use these terms, but who also RP in their own way. Though they may be using those terms, they are still in-character (in their own way), so appearances can be deceiving. I think the line between RP and PL is blurred (and yes i agree with Xillix, about the term PL...i also dont like it, but for the sake of being understood im using it). Its quite a broad spectrum, with hardcore RPers on one end who police anything that moves, and the sole PLers who dont RP in the slightest on the other end. I think everyone can fit somewhere in that spectrum, and even if someone may RP "LOL"s in their speech, thats their choice, and at least they are trying. I think its very easy to at least maintain the proper persona (i know that sounds snooty...but i didnt mean it that way) in mainchat, and its very easy to learn...we just need to be patient as players and be more willing to teach, not just point fingers.
I hope that was relevant...i kinda went on a tangent there for a bit ;)
Anyways..nice poll and review Xillix, i agree 100%
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I voted No. These ideas have been stated before many times in the thread, so I will just reiterate:
Do we need a bigger player base? My opinion: The developers may need it, yes, but I don't. Having a smaller but specialized player base is sometimes better than large numbers and it will affect the quality of gameplay.
That said, I haven't seen too many roleplayers these days really, or even taken part in many roleplays.
RP does not hinder other type of play in the game, as a matter of fact I do believe that non RP or very mild RP people are the majority.
Why most people move on is because the status of the game as alpha / open beta. Bugs, balancing issues, or just plain boredom after they have attained what they felt they could from such a game are the main reasons for people leaving. RP-ers tend stay more if they find other RP-ers to hang with, but for the achiever types, once they have reached a certain goal, they move on to another game leaving temporarily or for good since there's nothing else to do.
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-------------------------------No. - 31 (30.7%)
This answer I find either completely mistaken or less than intellectually honest. I am not saying there is any intentional dishonesty in those who firmly believe the rp focus is not costing ps players, I just hope those people will be open to my arguments throughout this post. I have confidence that people come here get scolded by someone and leave, not only never to return, but also certain to post a negative review somewhere due to how they were treated by their fellow players. I will admit we lost the single largest cross-section of players to the incomplete state of the game, but the fact that we lose any potential future rpers to the didactic tone of one player to another is something the whole community should be wary of.
It's very important here to distinguish between community and game development. RP focus in the community will drive off certain types of players, just like roleplayers are usually driven off elsewhere. RP focus in game development doesn't need to drive off players in my eyes.
Mechanics-wise focusing on roleplay generally means creating many options and a large freedom for interaction with the world and extensive character development, as well as decreasing the need to grind mindlessly to get somewhere. I don't see how that has to drive off those who aren't interested in roleplay.
The poll did not specify any distinction so don't be too quick to disregard this answer.
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I did not disregard it, I just disagree with it.
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When I voted and posted, I was hoping my decision to be shared by most of you (as anyone would). But more than that, I truly wanted to read about the underlying reasons for each one's decision.
By watching the numbers grow, so did my disappointment and sometimes I even felt worse, particularly while reading some derailments towards language references which have absolutely nothing to do with the poll or thread.
As I expect you all did, I was positively surprised and to some point, amazed while reading the poll's 'requiem'. If Xillix analysis was a result of the evolution of the thread itself, then it is good that we have such individual working 'for us' for free. But if it was an articulated setup conceived from the start, then I'm more than happy and somehow proud to be around.
Sometimes we forget that these guys take this thing seriously and believe that whatever happens against our desire is like a personal offense towards us and we get up in arms immediately.
While getting near the 100 vote, I couldn't avoid to feel a bit awkward to the point that I thought the outcome would result in perhaps a new poll like ''Queen of Fools' focus" and perhaps the question would read: "Do you think Xillix is costing PS players?".. I'm serious!
And perhaps it did.. (I'm still serious) As it did a great invitation for me to revise my approach, I hope it helped you to at least meditate about yours. And then you may decide if staying on this endeavor.
Although my questions were not answered for some being derailing the thread or maybe cux of the stupid things I ask, I still think this experience is worth every penny.
When I came into this game, I had a personal guide. Someone willing to teach me about this world and I cannot be more grateful for all the fun I got for nothing.. I hope my silly jokes did pay the favor, specially when I took my first step ever in RPing: "I can't speak PlaneShiftian" which may sound as the most OOClyish thing ever but hey! I may not be excellent or competent but I'm present! and yes, I did better later on. And I do keep my logs from those days.. I still smile when reading my first words: "What the %^$# is this $&!^" No one was around, luckily.
I followed my friends and most admired guildmates when our guild exploded for selfish reasons and then their guild fell for the same ones (ain't it odd?) to another MMORPG but I came back almost immediately. Reason: Respect for my character. My comrades know very well what I mean. This epoch I go solo but I kept myself part of the guild till my character felt otherwise. I know in my char's heart we all felt bad at that moment but the persons in front of their keyboards only expressed it OOCly.. At those moments is when RP is most useful.
Too much drama?.. yes.. bt since I can't play now (puter issues) I have enough time even for that! I hope U have some to kep reading
RolePlay: To express your character's way to be.
I could give you all some advise: Recall your first time in here or try to focus on the moment you fell for it.. and duplicate that for a noob. My character did that a few times and I'm still receiving the thanyous (which sometimes catch me off base for not recalling their names). Even though my char's style may not be the friendliest most of the time.
I tried this game because I was lurking @ mininova and it was listed as top dwnld.. so I gave it a try. I hope this helps at least for where to promote or something.
I have only recomended this game to one person (seriously) just because I found that one to be the perfect fit. English is not her language or mine and I told her she could learn from the whole experience.. now, she seems more devoted than me.
If you see Neoma, tell her I said "muickkk!"
ty
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I did not disregard it, I just disagree with it.
Fair enough :)
@ Zan
Mechanics-wise focusing on roleplay generally means creating many options and a large freedom for interaction with the world and extensive character development, as well as decreasing the need to grind mindlessly to get somewhere. I don't see how that has to drive off those who aren't interested in roleplay.
I think the distinction is a very good one. RP is often something that falls under the player's hat. The quality of roleplay in the game is in effect the sum of roleplays and roleplayers who stick around. However, if game-mechanics encourage roleplay as an alternative to level grinding, then we will have a balanced environment.
It's not even about RP-ers driving off other types of gamers (as a matter of fact I have seen very little if any of that happening).
It's about attracting more players & what to do with them afterwards, how to keep them interested. If the game is balanced, then the type of player will emerge by himself without much interference.
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Mechanics-wise focusing on roleplay generally means creating many options and a large freedom for interaction with the world and extensive character development, as well as decreasing the need to grind mindlessly to get somewhere. I don't see how that has to drive off those who aren't interested in roleplay.
Because a long mindless grind can lead someone to be "the best" on the server, which is what many people seek in the MMORPGs.
Oh, and those noobs, who reject duels, because "you gave no rp reason" are annoying.
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Oh, and those noobs, who reject duels, because "you gave no rp reason" are annoying.
And those uber-noobs who just want to duel just because it is their idea of fun are uber-annoying.
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"Just because"?
Isn't having fun a major factor in any form of recreational gaming?
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Maybe because it is not fun to the other?
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Someone who powerlevels his character (without signs of RP) and then walks from here to there and puts challenges just to proove that...
"I am teh best of teh srver n00b"...
...are more annoying then those who refuzes those duels.
:flowers:
At least when this game is supposed to be foccused to RP, not to leveling and duelling. For that are there many else (and yes.. better) games.
Problem maybe is that its hard to become best in community of powerlevelers and its quite easy in community of roleplayers :)
..then teh n00b appears here and thinks that he is good.
(just a thought.. but I think not too far from truth) :surrender:
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Maybe because it is not fun to the other?
I do believe I asked a yes/no question, not a why one.
@Miaua: We're talking specifically about people that aren't interested in roleplay. Not about what is more annoying.
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One suggestion. This poll seemed to be about why people are not staying around to play Planeshift. But there's one problem... you're asking the people who are playing it. Seems to me you should be asking the people who are not playing it. Maybe there could be something in game that allows a person to give instant feedback on why they don't think they would want to play PS anymore? Explain in the tutorial exactly how to provide that feedback if the player should decide to move on? Just an idea, not sure how you motivate people who just stop playing to provide it, but that's where the data should be coming from. Everything else is just speculation.
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Just an idea, not sure how you motivate people who just stop playing to provide it, but that's where the data should be coming from.
Spam their email boxes!
No, but seriously, the X-man already explained why he asked this question to the folks that still play PS.
And if I may refer to Xil's opinion (as presented both earlier and more recent), I don't think a slight shift in Planeshift's focus would beg for changed mechanics. I mean, it did already happen in Planeshift's history. If you'd look at PS community from back around middle of 2003 and from today, the focus is very different. Back then roleplay wasn't the aim of the community - it was more of a tool. Basically no one had anything against ooc chatter in the shoutbox (but no French! >:| ), no one whined about people who never roleplayed, but rather chased after crystals, and no one criticized less-than-appropriate names (heck, people named like Enraged, Clawhand, Seperot, Moogie, Pooky, Silenthero, or Karyuu had a high social status). Sure, there was roleplay. But it was only an optional tool and no one would bite your head off if you'd roleplay something against the settings. Free for all, I would say, so long as you don't actually offend another person.
It was a healthy environment, I think. People roleplayed for fun, not because they were expected to. And there was nothing wrong with pausing the roleplay and instead making ooc references, or just mindlessly hunting the crystals <3
Nowadays roleplay seems to be the only accepted form of fun and if you do as little as make a slight ooc reference to lighten up the general atmosphere, people will ICly treat you as if you were some sort of a lunatic (I still remember peeking in to the newly released CB after a longer absence in PS /o\ )... I don't think this is very healthy. I mean, I can see everyone takes things harder than we used to all those years ago.
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And if I may refer to Xil's opinion
...
I don't think this is very healthy. I mean, I can see everyone takes things harder than we used to all those years ago.
Truth.
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I don't think this is very healthy. I mean, I can see everyone takes things harder than we used to all those years ago.
Agreed.
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The lack of conflict in the game is what drives away players.
Theres no problem with shoving rp down people's throats.
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Lack of conflict?!?
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He means IC lack of conflict I believe.
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Indeed, im not going to go into it though the devs are already working on it so no point in debating such.
And yes we have plenty of drama in ooc ps hehe...
I just don't see whats wrong with the current system of 'rp or gtfo' I've met many people who joined ps with an ooc mind set, but after hearing that we all rp here they conformed without a fuss.
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Well, if you really wanted to get in peoples faces over it, Earl, I would bet the non-rp'ers could bring more people here who would tell you to stop RP'ing and gtfo if you don't like it. As PS gets better and better, that may very well happen. Co-existence will be needed so you don't lose the environment you love. Other games do it with special RP servers, and I can say that on many of those servers, non-RP'ers go there all the time to grief the RP'ers, and it totally sucks for the environment. They can do mass bannings, and probably should and will, but there will limits that will only let you go so far with that.
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If i understand Draklar's post, PS was not originally a RP-only game. This "focus" has come from players who have claimed some ownership of the game and, from the tone of this thread, are a little overeager in their zeal for RP. I know that those players that do absolutely nothing but level grind are likely to burn out quickly and don't add much to the community per se. I see the far other end of the spectrum as worse. While the player that doesn't interact with anybody isn't adding anything, the extremely vocal, condescending, nitpicking strict-RPers are much more visible and give the game a undeserved reputation. In the end, PS is a game. This is not RL, but an escape from it for people to enjoy.
If you cannot possibly tolerate people in-game that are actually exploring game mechanics and not sitting in the tavern RPing the entire time they are in-game, then why are you here instead of on a mud or irc? There is room for everyone here from the so-called PLers to the so-called strict-RPers. I am not trying to start, yet another, fight here. I am seriously interested in hearing why the strict-RPers in the community are drawn to PS. From some of the posts I have seen where someone "interrupted" their RP, it feels like some would be happy with typing Shakespeare into their chat window in a prearranged exchange. Why do you need a very nice 3D world with game mechanics to do this? Should there be a RP server that contains no NPCs, no game mechanics, and 50 or so Taverns around Hyldaa plaza?
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Well, if you really wanted to get in peoples faces over it, Earl, I would bet the non-rp'ers could bring more people here who would tell you to stop RP'ing and gtfo if you don't like it. As PS gets better and better, that may very well happen. Co-existence will be needed so you don't lose the environment you love. Other games do it with special RP servers, and I can say that on many of those servers, non-RP'ers go there all the time to grief the RP'ers, and it totally sucks for the environment. They can do mass bannings, and probably should and will, but there will limits that will only let you go so far with that.
You underestimate the strength of a game master. As polls on this very forum have proven, zergs don't win.
Frankly though, you don't have to be an in depth rper to be in ps, just so long as you are not running around spouting. "lul omg fish card!"
I find 100% of the people who actually show an interest in playing ps have no problem rping. Its a single package deal really.
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I think that people see RP as being some sort of work, being much more big deal than it really has to be. For me, it reinforces the experience even if people just use simple emotes or simple phrases here and there when in the public channel. Its funny sometimes because you see people arguing about it, shouting about it OOC, complaining about how they have to be in character, et cetera. Which always seems to take a lot more effort than just typing /me laughs and walks away...
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The playerbase is small, yes... But that's not always a bad thing. The game being RP oriented, we drive off many people who just want to play, not RP (Which is why Blizz sets up 4 types of servers: Normal, PvP, RP, RPPvP). To me, though... that's a godsend. I'd much rather roleplay than listen to whiny little 12 year olds, who are going through the fussies because of puberty, complain and moan for some reason or another (Which is why I NEVER seek parties in Guild Wars... My henchies and heroes are smarter AND don't whine! :o ). The fact that PS is a full RP world is what I loved (maybe still) about it.
Just my 2 tria.
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Not only I want more players but I think that for a free game's dev team, the numbers are more important than for a commercial one. I don't think devs will have growing stamina with a less count by the day.
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I don’t generally post on forums but a few friends suggested I do so and say what I think... There are many reasons why people play Planeshift..
1. roleplay: which is the way it should be
2. Powerleveling: which should be used to back up your roleplay
3. Socializing: Used by all to speak OOC or IC
each person has their own experience as Waoknie stated earlier.. It all depends on what the player wants to do.. There are many options in the game and many guilds to help enhance the options.
1. evil
2. good
3.nuetral
then there is many ways to play these factions such as..
1. roguish ways
2. lawful ways
3. healers
4. hunters
5. guides
6. information gatherers
7. secret and hidden guilds inside other guilds
8. hermits
9. fighters
10. etc etc etc etc
With all these options we can create a playing field that works well.. Yes many options have limits as to what degree one can travel in roleplay.. One thing I found to work rather well.. is find a new person and introduce roleplay to them at a very young stage in planeshift.. drawing someone into a roleplay situation usually brings them back wanting more and more..
a few suggestions would be a post of guilds and what they have to offer.. that would help many find a home and a place to fit in.. forcing roleplay is not a good idea.. it will only make the non-compliant fight more against it.. I find that introducing roleplay in guild chat, everyplace your character decides to stop, and thru your actions makes people look..
I once played a rogue in the Outlaws.. many know me.. many hate me.. flame me if you wish.. So many take actions of roleplay as OOC acts against them.. just because I played a evil character doesn’t mean I am evil nor do I act like it in real life.. I played my character as a rogue would in the planeshift world.. you take the OOC out and you’ll have a much happier environment.. If you don’t like my roleplay just walk away.. simple enough..
The power of the old ways still flows thru my veins.. Thanks brother Waoknie for keeping it alive as well
I am me, JUST ME
Thinzall
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The way I play the game, I both roleplay and strive to level up...frankly, I think that's the best way to fully enjoy the game, and I don't see the point in saying "Both or gtfo!" to the power-levelers or the strict roleplayers, nor do I see the point in them forcing their way of playing on me. This game is supposed to be enjoyable for everyone, is it not?
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1. evil
2. good
3.nuetral
I would like to see this implemented in a game somewhere and be the only deciding factor in alignment. It has never made sense to me that an entire population would be totally aligned the same way.
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I would like to see this implemented in a game somewhere and be the only deciding factor in alignment. It has never made sense to me that an entire population would be totally aligned the same way.
What is this -- and what would be the only deciding factor in alignment? The traditional alignment system has been debated many times on these forums, but what you are saying right there is not clear...?
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1. evil
2. good
3.nuetral
I would like to see this implemented in a game somewhere and be the only deciding factor in alignment. It has never made sense to me that an entire population would be totally aligned the same way.
I'm not too sure I understand what you mean. There is already a faction system in PlaneShift that is like the old DnD alignments but expanded.
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Factions are based on how the NPCs perceive you, nothing more. They have nothing to do with your character's alignment. You can be a complete evil monster on the inside, yet NPCs (and other players) will think your character is a saint by the way you act. You could be a saint, but one wrong action will make everyone see you as the monster. Alignments are your choice, not the system's.
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In many cases, a new person would like to role play, but everyone seems to ignore them. this is often because they don't have a description, so people assume they are a non-rper and don't role play. thats why some newbies try to force others to rp.
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[/quote]
I'm not too sure I understand what you mean. There is already a faction system in PlaneShift that is like the old DnD alignments but expanded.
[/quote]
Yes the faction reads 110 good, 55 evil, 35 chaos, 85 law..... all which means totalled Neutral..... one can not choose path unless they roleplay it... there should be a set scripture in the path you choose as there is in getting into the winch... so should the path of the quests and factions
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I don't think changing the focus away from RP is a good idea, because that is one of the things making planeshift unique and valuable.
However, I do think the community should be more welcoming. If someone violates the rules, try to inform the person of the way we do things in a way that doesn't make him feel like he/she is "getting yelled at". People leave when they feel unwelcome. Most people don't read the documentation before playing, since with most other games they are used to, you just download and play. The tutorial area was a good step forward. More of that stuff.
We don't have enough people to fill all the areas we have, however, to attract more people, I suggest making these areas more interesting. Put more neat random hidden stuff in the vast planes (eg: bdroad2 and the ojaroad's), making it more worth the effort to actually wander around and explore!!
Also, consider having more diversity for the lower level characters. Spending all day killing rats or mining gets old VERY quick. Put in some more low-level creatures with loot that would be useful to low level characters, perhaps.
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No.
The game cannot dictate to the players in such a way to 'make' them role play. It can only encourage it. As it is at the moment, role playing is encouraged, both in the mechanics of the game, and in the forums - it is now up to the player base to exploit that which is available to aid their imaginative role playing. Also it is up to the players to ensure that they stay within the settings... Something that is hard to do when it is ever changing - I know this only too well having played here for a number of years now.
Obviously, the game will do best expanding the playable areas... and introducing more 'objects' that can be used as props... and so on and so forth, to help stimulate the less creative of players.
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The game cannot dictate to the players in such a way to 'make' them role play.
Has been done over and over again in many recent single player games.
I don't think it was achieved in any MMO game yet, but for these the question isn't whether it can be achieved - rather how it can be achieved.
Most MMORPGs use the same gaming system that obviously doesn't go hand-in-hand with roleplay, but in this still relatively fresh genre many systems are yet to be explored, so don't talk as if the road was already closed.
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I find this interesting .......
I think the community should try to be more welcoming. Number of voters ----> 35 (27.3%)
I really wonder if half the people if not all of them who voted for this option are as nice to new comers as they request from other players? From all the people who voted this option it is the second choice in the running and it seems silly to me to see this voted so high up in the options when I know from my own experiences that the people of PlaneShift are pertty friendly. Very rarely did I see rude players. I also wonder if some of these votes are just because the player had one bad run in with another. If that is the case, that doesn't mean the community should try to turn up the niceness just because of one bad experience.
It would be nice to see a poll about "Is the PlaneShift community welcoming and polite" and leave options to choose if the player has had one bad experience or more. I think that poll would help alot of players see that it isn't as bad as some make it out to be. From all of the communities online that I am apart of I still find this to be one of the most friendly communities out there. Then again maybe I was just lucky and the friendly community I see is possibly an illusion?
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But Zorbels, you're the sort of person this community craves for :x
It's obvious you won't experience rude behaviour from the PS commoners.
Myself, I remember being assumed to be a non-roleplayer for the most ridiculous reasons (never for anything I've been doing ingame) and for this simply attacked.
I can only imagine what the actual non-roleplayers receive when they decide to open their mouths :P
For the record, I didn't vote.
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I think it was a 'best of a bad lot' choice for many, Xillix as much as said the options were skewed to make a point. The greatest number of votes went to an even worse option if you ask me. Of course you didn't ;)
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I think shifting the focus away from RP will replace quality of players with quantities of players. It's a balance only the head staff can decide on, but personally, I would be very sada to see the focus shift away from RP.. and then would go find another game that does focus on RP.
As things stand, RP is encouraged but not enforced. Those that do not want to RP can still have fun here. I think it's a good mix.
Actual RP-focused MMORPG's are relatively small as a general rule. For an incomplete game, the playerbase here, honestly, is huge. Of the two other 'good' (IMHO) RP MMORPG's I've played, the playerbase here is about double one of them, and triple the other, based solely on number of players online at any given time. I recall not so long ago throwing a party in the staff channel when we hit 65 players online in the smaller (and IMO better) of them... first time it had ever happened. And that is, by most accounts, a thriving RPG.
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I have a question... Was this game supposed to be purely RP-based in the first place?
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Oh but according to many rp is dying and everyone is leaving!
oh noes!
and according to others the cities are empty and everyone is only mining!
oh noes!
and according to others planeshift is NOT rp oriented enough!
oh noes!
Ps was conceived by rpers, built by various people though.
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Oh but according to many rp is dying and everyone is leaving!
oh noes!
That's pretty normal for most RP games. They go in cycles, and when 'the old crowd' starts growing thin, people tend not to notice that 'the new crowd' has something to offer, and so complain about RP dying out. It evens out eventually.
and according to others the cities are empty and everyone is only mining!
oh noes!
Well... in part... though I've found no lack of RP whatsoever. However... now that I have been working a little more on gaining skill instead of only RPing, I see the problem a little more. Gaining skill is VERY time consuming on here. But that's another matter entirely
I also think the attempts to strictly keep large-scale 'fighting' between the players has backfired a bit in this. In many of the RPGs I've been a part of, town-against-town conflicts have been the life's blood of the large-scale RP, not to mention player-based governments of said towns.
and according to others planeshift is NOT rp oriented enough!
oh noes!
As I said, I think it's a pretty good mix between 'video game' and RPG. You can do both quite well here. Just my personal opinion, of course. And again, it is incomplete; there are a lot of things missing that will add tremendously to the RP (all the player graphics, clothes, expanded/elaborated areas, the rest of the skills (esp. crafting), etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum).
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Oh and zorbels, also according to the poll results fully one in five people on this poll say "to hell with anyone who doesn't rp" that means that the average noob has roughly a one in five chance of running into someone who will act like a complete ass to them if they have not altered their description or come up asking a noob question. So technically, we could probably be a bit nicer :)
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I voted "to hell with anyone who doesn't rp," but that doesn't mean I'd be a complete ass to noobs. There's a difference between noobs and people who don't roleplay on a roleplaying game. I don't think anyone who voted that option actually meant they hate noobs. They just don't want people who don't want to roleplay on a game that's meant for roleplaying. Doesn't really make sense, anyway...
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I agree with what Raa said (though I voted "No", and I mean that I agree with what she said comparing noobs to people who don't want to roleplay). I've met someone who's apparently been playing for a year and still doesn't roleplay, despite constant attempts to teach said person. I'm new here, but I wanted to roleplay, so I did, and still do. It's fun, and perhaps if there's a way to actually state that this is a roleplaying game (since other games are technically roleplaying games too, but don't have roleplay in them) more people will be drawn to it. They consider this no different from runescape at first, sadly.
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I agree with Raa 100%. I also voted 'To hell with those who don't RP', but meant it as 'those who choose not to' rather than 'those who don't know how yet'. I'm always up for helping to teach someone how to RP... as long as they have a willingness to learn it.
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The attitude is still way off the mark folks, roleplaying is encouraged, not enforced. I really do not think we can increase to reasonable player numbers by being hard line on rp.
This is not to say that we won't continue to support rp.
Remember from my initial post, the other option I presented is that the role players bring more roleplayers.
Try to soften the rhetoric.
As it stands there is no real reason to ever add another area to ps, they are sparse to the point of absurdity atm. How about reaching out to some of your real life friends, or if it is that bad, go get some and then bring them back here. :oops:
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I am! :flowers:
I have gotten one person in that plays daily, two that are going to try it soon (one has no reliable internet connection at the moment, and the other is in the middle of a move), and one that is going to start tonight (she was finishing up classes). Plus, I have about 5 more that I have been trying to talk into trying, but they are resisting because they are hooked on other games. Foolish peoples! hehe
But there is a flipside to that coin... existing RP-contacts are finite, and once those are used up, in order to try and recruit, you have to go spend time elsewhere to try and make friends, thus reducing your effective players-online potential.
It's a tricky question.
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NirAntae ftw!
We could probably accomplish a lot by asking friends to ask friends.
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I find this interesting .......
I think the community should try to be more welcoming. Number of voters ----> 35 (27.3%)
I really wonder if half the people if not all of them who voted for this option are as nice to new comers as they request from other players? From all the people who voted this option it is the second choice in the running and it seems silly to me to see this voted so high up in the options when I know from my own experiences that the people of PlaneShift are pertty friendly. Very rarely did I see rude players. I also wonder if some of these votes are just because the player had one bad run in with another. If that is the case, that doesn't mean the community should try to turn up the niceness just because of one bad experience.
It would be nice to see a poll about "Is the PlaneShift community welcoming and polite" and leave options to choose if the player has had one bad experience or more. I think that poll would help alot of players see that it isn't as bad as some make it out to be. From all of the communities online that I am apart of I still find this to be one of the most friendly communities out there. Then again maybe I was just lucky and the friendly community I see is possibly an illusion?
I'd like to see a poll on this as well, though I'm on the other side of this. maybe there seems to be more unfriendly players than many think? though...the poll itself will be a little biased, simply because the people who wander this forum...are the ones who stayed.
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Wow we could offer recruitment prizes for each player recruited who plays for at least 100 hours,
for 5 players 10 levels on the stat of your choice
for 10 players a mention by one of the npc's
for 20 players a House of your own and
for 50 players a street permanently named after you
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Wow we could offer recruitment prizes for each player recruited who plays for at least 100 hours,
for 5 players 10 levels on the stat of your choice
for 10 players a mention by one of the npc's
for 20 players a House of your own and
for 50 players a street permanently named after you
There already is recruitment prizes for bringing your buddies on board, it's more platinum. That and a larger guild.
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I have a small issue on teh RP side of things. I have to say that I don't RP that often, but recognize and respect the need for it as a clear goal within the game as set by the developers.
Yesterday, I was invited to the tavern for a little RP and decided to engage as a break from other game tasks. I was dismayed to be told in no uncertain terms OOC that addressing other characters by name.. i.e. using their name in the text is not acceptable RP protocol and also the use of custom emoting
i./e. /me glances round the tavern and consider purchasing an ale
is also frowned upon.
Whilst I accept this may be something somebody has decided, it just does not make sense. If custom emoting is not acceptable, then I don't know what RP really is. Also, by not addressing another character directly by name, there is no way of knowing who is speaking to who. This causes confusion.
I was told that to speak to someone directly, I must "face" them. This, I did and got told "What you looking at?!" I done RP in other games and used similar style and it has not been frowned upon. If these rules are how it is on PlaneShift, then that is fine, however, it may be a reason why many folk choose not to RP. I for one have been put off it.
BTW. I do use the /introduce system before addressing other characters and have introduced myself with my name (which does seem pointless when character descriptions are available for those who wish to look.)
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This would be a clear indication of RP Zealotry, not something I am remotely comfortable with.
Again, an indication not being nice enough.
How in the heck people come to these WEIRD "conventions" and try to force them on people is beyond me.
When people make the process absurdly complicated they also make it more daunting for people who don't normally RP.
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potatoehead64,
perhaps you didnt fully understand it, or the guy who told you wasnt precise enough. Not using names of people in general of course is nonsense. But I presume it was meant that using names of people your char cannot know, since he never met them before or whatever, to adress one with is frowned upon.
Just imagine you walk around the street and you would know everyone's name, as if they had it floating above their head.
Second thing, the emoting-one.. People may not like to see it because it causes them trouble to know oocly on one hand about your char's current intentions/feelings aso, on the other hand have to continue playing their own one not having a clue.
Just imagine you spot a guy outside who is looking about, and for some odd reason you clearly know that he is intenting to go to the bus-stop to go visiting his grandma.
How in the heck people come to these WEIRD "conventions" and try to force them on people is beyond me.
I think it's simply because people think Planeshift is indeed a roleplaying game. But in fact there are many factors that oppose this view. Meanwhile I consider Planeshift a game where everyone is invited to do what he wants, merely testing the mechanics, trying to establish deep and exciting stories, collect as many items as possible etc. "Roleplaying is encouraged" as stated on one of the official pages (if still there) may misguide people to falsly believe roleplaying is as well motivated by officials, GMs or Devs. But in the end officials just enjoy to see people roleplaying, while arent bothered at all as well to see players bringing mechanics to its limit or max out char after char silently.
"Planeshift provides a platform where you can feel free to do what ever you want to do!" - replace the Roleplaying part from the game's description with this one and perhaps less people will be scared off? I am in no way meaning to mock, but to suggest to adjust the current descriptions about the game to be fitting better and more adequately.
I really do not think we can increase to reasonable player numbers by being hard line on rp.
For the sake of merely increasing numbers I wonder if your (Anti-)Nooby Song (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32466.msg373990#msg373990) is an appriopriate approach.
By the way, how about making a somewhat clearer statement on what sort of people you would like to see joining Planeshift, what's the type of player you worry to be driven off by too much roleplay, and what kind of player you happily see leaving? Or better, who will be left? The occasional player?
In my eyes though, if Planeshift tries to copy others, and even if its only for the sake of appearing to be more successful it will fail at some point. There are heaploads of commercial games doing doing a much better job.
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I have already stated (if one actually reads the whole thread) we really don't have intent to move away from that rp niche. The issue is how the players actually manifest this could probably use some work.
If potatoehead64 is having trouble, I doubt he is alone. I understand what you said above velh and I agree with most of it, but it does seem clear from potatoehead64's post that people weren't incredibly patient as they explained themselves.
Here is what I advocate: If you find a player who wants to learn rp take them aside from the rping space and give them some pointers, allow them to practice with it with you in pms, THEN go back to the group RP.
Of course people will say, "I just want to play, not teach."
Well, I want to build for a game that has a tolerant instructive approach to rping where players go out of their way to use the bug tracker, help others learn the ropes, and go out of their way to bring new rpers to the game.
Even if someone had played DND or VAMPIRE for years, when they get to ps the conventions of roleplay are different and take some explaining.
We are doing all we can with a rewrite of the tutorial, but we hope that players will take some of this on as well.
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If references to roleplay were changed to say acting it might be clearer what was wanted in PS. What you are really looking for is improvisational character actors that can assimilate background information and type well. One could argue that since there is no formal system of rules or personal referee in PS to run scenarios (for every character all the time), it is not really a roleplaying game. Horrors!
Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, they may improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roleplaying
Unlike other forms of interactive narrative, they can, in theory, be played with no tools and virtually no financial outlay: all that is necessary is that there be interaction between a player and a referee.
http://www.rpg.net/oracle/essays/rpgoverview.html
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The whole "that's not how you RP properly..." approach a few players have here and there is presumptuous, snobbish, rude, and unwanted. Don't do that. Don't police other people's RP. It doesn't help. It only alienates them. It puts them on the spot and they don't really have to hear that crap. If you want to be positive with your input and "teach" someone about RP, you have to be patient and respectful.
If you've ever been "told off" by someone trying to "teach" you how to RP, don't give it much importance. There are only a few of those players out there and while the damage they can do is big (so big that the whole community can be seen as unwelcoming), in reality, there are a lot more players who make up for that kind of attitude.
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potatoehead64,
perhaps you didnt fully understand it, or the guy who told you wasnt precise enough. Not using names of people in general of course is nonsense. But I presume it was meant that using names of people your char cannot know, since he never met them before or whatever, to adress one with is frowned upon.
Just imagine you walk around the street and you would know everyone's name, as if they had it floating above their head.
My suggestion here would be, if I'm not supposed to know somebody who has a name above their head, then why is it there? The fact is it IS there in much the same way as when you walk into a shop and somebody has their name badge on for the purposes of you being able to address them directly. Perhaps Devs could consider the ability for players to hide their name to other players... Maybe there could be a level where they are able to show it to friends only perhaps. That would also serve as a good way of stopping any sort of mobbing that goes on (bearing in mind that characters from the same race look very much the same).
As for emotes. The graphics cannot show that I approach the bar to buy a beer and drink it, so why not state it in an emote? After all, in a real world, that is what folk would see me do.
In any case, this is all tiny detail. As I said, if the way things are, are how Devs and the majority prefer it, then I respect it as so, but I'm less likely to engage in RP as it stands. The debate seems to be about whether people play the game for RP and the if's but's and maybe's as to why folk leave the game.
On the whole, I love this game and play it daily. 99% of it is how I like it. I've tried one or 2 others like Second Life and Regnum and they don't come close. Runescape has it's uses when PS has time out, but thats about it.
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i./e. /me glances round the tavern and consider purchasing an ale
is also frowned upon.
I have a feeling the problem here may be the fact this custom contains an indication of thought, which shouldn't in any way be apparent to characters lacking any sense of telepathy.
Of course, it's not much of a deal, but with Planeshifters taking huge pride in their increasingly "mad roleplaying skills", such issue doesn't really come as a surprise.
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I was going to say the same thing draklar, here is a suggestion as to what might have been more acceptable:/me glances round the tavern and his gaze comes to rest upon the bar.
This would effectively say the same thing. Of course I probably would not have said anything in the game, myself.
As for the labels you can turn them off in option if they confuse you.
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Oh and zorbels, also according to the poll results fully one in five people on this poll say "to hell with anyone who doesn't rp" that means that the average noob has roughly a one in five chance of running into someone who will act like a complete ass to them if they have not altered their description or come up asking a noob question. So technically, we could probably be a bit nicer :)
That makes sense. I wish it didn't and that we could claim to have a sickenly nice community. (I feel it used to be that way, but I have a feeling the volume of players might have something to do with that. There were less players a couple of years ago.)
/me rants X-/ (Sorry ahead of time!)
Players stop the maddness. Teach the newbies, don't tell them they can't RP this way or that! Why? Because you really don't have that right. Suggsting is one thing but demanding is another. Just teach them what you have learned from experience. If you don't want to teach them then don't say anything. Better yet direct them to someone you know who would be more than happy to help the newbie. If your not willing to help someone better themselves with their RP in this game then do the rest of us a favor who do try to give this community a good rep with being helpful and keep your negitive comments to yourself. Please?
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Well Said Zorbels - now why are you not in game? miss you.
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I think of Planeshift as if it stage were I can play out my character. The thing is I am only as good as the ‘actor’ next to me. We are all in this together. There are some that play a major role and some that play a minor role and some that just play ‘extras.’ It is true we need an imagination to role play and some might not think they have it. IMHO if we all work together to make this the best it can be then no one will be left out. We must remember by helping others we help ourselves. And who knows just maybe someday the ‘extra’ might turn into the star and steal the show.
If we think of it this way then I believe that the role play focus would not be costing us players because we would then be a family or if you wish to called it a team that is fine too. Each and every addition would be more then welcomed.
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Oh dear, that took me ages to read all of this... :sleeping:
At first I thought I'd read the whole thing and then vote at the end once I got a feel for the topic... about half way through I voted Snorks.
It got really intimidating at one point, scary even. I almost wanted to leave. :(
I played way back when, in the crystal hunting days. I stopped playing with the update to the next version, not because I didn't want to, but because my computer was being a pain and other RL issues.
It was fun... OOC was all around, but when we got to it, RP was fun.
I tried to come back, but got scared off a few times.
And now I'm back again, but trying much harder to stay put. I read a lot of the threads but I'm scared at times to post, because I don't want to make myself look bad or get flamed for saying something stupid... because it does seem very, how should I say, intense in the forums at times.
I keep on coming back because I love what I see to be the games future, what it seems to want to be. I want to be a part of it's development. I want to see it thrive... it's sad to see the troubles it seems to be going through, but I have hope that it'll sort itself out.
I knew what RP was when I first came here, and I still do. It's causing me to be really, really, really cautious. I don't want to make a fool of myself... I've always been that way though, I hardly ever get deep into a game that has RP because I'm too cautious. ::) I should really learn to let loose, I think.
So.. that's how I feel, I wonder if it helps any?
I'm currently trying to badger a friend to come play with me so I don't feel so nervous all the time. :P
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All I know is that we need more warm bodies.
I hope the player community can fill the cities with intelligent rpers who more than meet the needs rpers seem to have for more of their own kind.
Ultimately if PS is to remain a niche for rper it MUST attract more people of this kind.
Strategies on how to do this would be welcomed.
Remember PS is not going to pay to advertise itself among rp types of players, this must be a player initiative.
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The only other system that I found that was as focused on RP was the NWN Nordock world, Richterm's Retreat. I talked to people about PS in there, and have done so on a few systems anytime I have a conversation with a player who is dissatisfied with the other players on the system, and who is being distracted from immersing in the game world. Eternal lands usually has a few at any given time, and is cross platorm and also free. Just to name a couple...
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How to attract more people: Give players more possibilities, like approved guilds or players in positions of power like vigesimi.
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how is catering to the elite going to help recruit more proletariat?
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Proletariat has a valid chance to raise to Elite in this case. (Not very pleased about your choice of words myself though)
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People on complain when they are the once receiving benefits. Some peope's complaint about approved guilds or players holding the office of Vigesimi would dry up if they received the benefits. :whistling: I like the idea of central characters (like vigesimi) being played by real people. It would justify and simplify adding them into RP. I haven't had the time for it, but I had wanted to start a Charm school that was really an RP school. It would provide basic courses in starting RPs, doing small RPs and eventually larger one. Maybe I should try writing up a plan for it and post it so someone else could try it. Easing people into RP would encourage growth far more than a scripted approach. No offense to whoever came up with the tutorial. :sweatdrop:
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Aside from the negative connotations of the word I used that I did not intend to impart despite the use of the word, the vigisemis and octarchs hold generally hereditary positions so how is character born as a peasant to come into such a position? There is very much a class system in Yliakum, just look to the restriction to the Winch for evidence. It would seem to me that having players take these positions would take too much control of the game from the developers. If you become Vigesemi of Hydlaa what becomes of the Dangerous Winds quest? does Amidson become your secretary or do you have to stand around to give it out. If you become Vigisemi of the Winch can you declare an entry tax of 5 circles each time someone sets foot in the place? Can you then allow the members of your guild to not pay it? If I am Octarch of Dome could I not bar you from the level? What will stop me from using my power arbitrarily?
At least with NPCs in the places of power control is in the hands of the people with the most interest in the game itself and not their position in the game.
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Great idea Illysia. A charm school sounds great for a role play lesson. Go for it!!
/me applauds the idea.
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Ah, you give us humans such little credit. Wouldn't it just be a little fun to turn off the NPCs and give the players some control, at some point, someday. This is way down the road of course because the game would have to be pretty much finished with the ability to build, uphold/enforce laws, create their own markets, etc., but it would also be fun to test it out in the current stage, just to see what would happen. It would be chaos and things would get out of control, but after the 10th or 11th try, people may learn how to do it right. But, I have confidence that us humans would find a balance and it could make for a pretty incredible game.
This may be for a wishlist item, but felt I should explain the above and how I envision it would allow for an incredible roleplaying experience. Yliakum would be a disposable world. You may still be able to come back from Death, but the world itself was destroyable and had limited resources and space. For example, in the beginning, one Yliakum is built from the ground up. And I mean ground up, no cities, no buildings, just like the RTS strategy games, from scratch. As the real community builds cities, establishes governments, trade routes, economies, I can imagine total chaos, anarchy, rebellions, booms and busts, and if Yliakum doesn't make it, if it gets destroyed by the roleplayers, then so be it, the world is destroyed and another instance of Yliakum is started from scratch and off everyone goes again. The players would have to have some serious control on the game though, hardly any restrictions except for the laws of Yliakum, gravity, environment, available resources, etc. I'm curious to see what kind of roleplaying occurs in a place like that, alas, if I was only a programming genius, oh, and had a couple supercomputers lying around...
But giving players the control to have a "position" in the game, does not give them automatic power, they can and would be overthrown if they were not being fair to their role. As long as the game allowed for others to uprise and have an opposite and equal effect in the game.
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here's my take. i think although it is in the rules to be RP, people don't obey them outside central zones (and even then, not all the time). for this, i don't think it's the cause of a low player base.
what i think's the cause is that it IS an rp game - it's not meant to be like other mmorpgs. i see it as half a conventional rpg and half a rp area. also, think about it, have you ever seen PS give you a better reason to give you money other than "it'll help out PS as a whole" which, though VERY honorable, doesn't lead to many upgrades on the game's part. for this, i commend PS for not selling out. i honestly don't get how it's still up and running w/ how little money it brings in. PS doesn't have a $100,000 budget to keep up w/ new game trends and a $50,000 budget to advertise. this is why we have few players.
nonetheless, it's VERY impressive what you've done, devs. every time i see PS i wanna rip out 3ds and photoshop and help in the work
thank you, donaters, we love you