PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Aiwendil on July 14, 2009, 04:58:07 pm
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Like every few few month it's time again to rant a bit about the ignorance of most of the PS players. Nothing new, I know. For me the only news about this is that I start such a thread. Maybe I just have become too annoyed over the pasts years with this...or, what I think is more likely it got far worse the last months.
But I know, it's asking too much of players to read some in-game books or a player guide. Most people are just too busy to form new guilds with interesting names...how should they find the time to go for an hour to the library and read those boring books. And sure, thinking of such creative names takes all the time so it's only understandable that the history of the guild is missed out. For what is that history useful at all? It's not needed to start guild wars with other guilds and turning the plaza into a second arena. What, it is not allowed to fight within the city walls? Where is that written? A book in the library? You must be kidding, neither I nor my character can read. I just copied the letters from the tutorial walk-through to the chat window.
That tutorial is stupid anyway, when I want to play a game like this I only need the movement keys and the attack key..no idea why anyone wants me to read what a stupid NPC says. I have my quest-cheat-charts to get the glyph rewards, no need to bother myself with those stupid stories the NPCs tell. I just ignore NPCs at all. So even if there is such a law that fighting is not allowed in towns, who cares? I have never seen any of the NPC guards acting at all, even if I kill others right in front of them. So leave me alone with your useless talking about an Octarchal Decree. Nobody cares about it, so why should I.
Roleplay you say? I am Roleplaying. I play a character in a world where the name tags float above other's heads, where I can steal beer mugs from barrels from some distance without even touching the barrels and then can run away and laugh about the stupidity of others who didn't notice it. And why should I use OOC-brackets? Nobody at the mines uses them so why should I? And there isn't really a difference of what my character and I think. What, you say there are people who enjoy themselves playing out arguments in this game and laugh behind their screens while their characters are in an argument? How should this work? I'm always really upset when someone kills me in the PvP pit and I won't stop hunting him down until I killed him at least twice in revenge. Other kinds of arguments? With the current game mechanics there is not much else I can do than killing monsters or other players. How could I get upset about a thievery there...what, you mean people argue about religion here? Xiosia? I thought that is the female version of Santa Claus who maxed my Brown Way skill. There isn't even a skill for religion in game, so no sense arguing about it. I don't get this whole IC/OOC difference at all. Why can't my character just buy a notebook from Jirosh, login the RL Internet and read the PS forums. There are computers in the winch and with such a computer I wouldn't have to care about using OOC information from the forum in game. I could just lookup what others say in the forums and then react with my character in game to this by killing them. And why should I bother myself with finding out in game who is my enemy. I can just look at their guild tags to know this, or for secret guilds I go to their forums to find out who is a member. It's much faster this way, and there isn't the problem that I maybe kill the wrong one.
Other solutions than killing characters? I already said the game mechanics doesn't allow much other things! You say talking in the chat window? Wait, let me see...I think I have turned that damned window off. It took away far too much space on my screen which I need to spot my enemies to kill them. It's already annoying that I have to turn on that window again if I want to auction my Q300 weapons. Quality is OOC and shouldn't go to the IC auction tab? Now you start with that stupid IC/OOC stuff again. It's IC. I can read the quality when I right-click my weapons. And what I know knows my character too.
But please excuse me now. A member of an enemy guild just ran past us to the plaza. Maybe I can catch him there. The plaza is a good plaza for this, we will have enough space there to duel. We are currently at war with three other guilds. And our new members already start to complain in the help channel that they are constantly killed by players of our enemy guilds. So it's time that I kill most of them to show them who we are. I'm sure if I kill them often enough they will surrender and declare us as the winners. And isn't this what this game is about...to pwn other players?. That is why I spend every spare minute at the platinum mines and slaying Ulbernauts. I needed that to max all magic ways, all armor skills and the two weapons skills. Right now I'm training the third weapon skill..and I also need more than 1 million tria to get one of those weapons which increases my dark way skill. Soon I will be unbeatable. Then I maybe even survive a evening in Kada El's with the three fights there every hour.
And I need all those skills to protect my Klyros wife. What, Krans are genderless? But I had the marry button with her, and now we even have a child together. One of my guild mates plays that child and he will soon be as powerful as me. And I'm not genderless. I'm a male Kran...I hate all those players who play characters with a different gender than they have in RL. Those are all perverted. Before I married my wife I made sure she is a girl IRL too. What you say roleplaying is about playing different roles? You must be wrong there...I'm sure it's about skill-numbers defining your role. But I really have to go now or that other player will escape. Now I have to turn on that damned chat window again to call my guild mates to the plaza.
[sarcasm mode off again...I'm somewhat serious about the following]
Please wipe ezpcusa and make it the RP server. Nearly nobody on laanx cares about roleplay at all anymore. So leave them their precious skills and give the Roleplayers a safe place again. And yes...it will take much longer for Roleplayers to gain some skills, but it's still better than the current situation on Laanx.
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Sorry Aiwendil, but I have to disagree... ;D One I did all the training I can stand to do years ago before I started RPing... I will not be going through that again. :P Two, Laanx is our server, if anything we should take it back. ;) I say if the rules of the server aren't being followed, make petitions. Sometimes it's not about the speed with which a problem is dealt with but that it is dealt with some how. If we give up on working with it, the problem will get worse. If necessary I will test the limits of how many petitions one person can submit. If the rules of the sever aren't followed, I will most definitely comment on it. ;)
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/me get's out his pitchfork "shoo shoo you perky plers"
;D soory just had to ;)
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Funny.
I'd say wipe both and let people make informed choices for the next release.
(and stop pestering me about xiosia :P )
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I must say this was no doubt the truth and it gave me a good laugh while I was skimming through the forum ;D
Please wipe ezpcusa and make it the RP server. Nearly nobody on laanx cares about roleplay at all anymore. So leave them their precious skills and give the Roleplayers a safe place again. And yes...it will take much longer for Roleplayers to gain some skills, but it's still better than the current situation on Laanx.
Meh, wouldn't bug me in the least bit if this was done. Of course, I've only ever personally trained one of my characters and that alt is dead so I'm less attached than other players.
Funny.
I'd say wipe both and let people make informed choices for the next release.
(and stop pestering me about xiosia :P )
I'd say go for this (but I only care about having my characters name so what do I know?)...but then let Santa's favorite helper Xiosia come visit the RP server bearing gifts :P
Edit:
On a more serious note I hardly log on unless I've the intent to RP and have the specific plan down. Basically, I don't do any casual RP on PS, or what I'd consider casual, so I can't really comment on the status of RP on the server, though I'm bias enough to agree with you just because you said it.
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I agree with everything except one little thing that was mentioned. The tavern fights stopped happening from what I've seen... the Yulbars and Rangers of Yliakum have calmed down. :P
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The nice thing about Planeshift is that it was created to be for everyone, this of course hampers the immersive gestalt of a thematically unified community at any given moment in time. But I look forward to the once and future zeitgeists of Yliakum.
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I like to level some and RP some. I really like to be able to run from RP in area A to RP in area B without having to rest several times in between. I'm not willing to give up my levels to go to a new RP server. I hope I'm not the only one who thinks there needs to be a balance between leveling and RP as I personally think that either pure RP or pure leveling is to limiting.
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I'd say wipe both and let people make informed choices for the next release.
Yes. Clear things out. My characters are old and rich and trained and like their names. I still say: Yes.
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I like to level some and RP some. I really like to be able to run from RP in area A to RP in area B without having to rest several times in between. I'm not willing to give up my levels to go to a new RP server. I hope I'm not the only one who thinks there needs to be a balance between leveling and RP as I personally think that either pure RP or pure leveling is to limiting.
I think so.
I'd say wipe both and let people make informed choices for the next release.
Yes. Clear things out. My characters are old and rich and trained and like their names. I still say: Yes.
Nuuuuuuu!!!! :-\ Wipes are never good unless they fix technically problems like the quest system and such.
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Illysia the fact that it fixes MANY issues is automatically true.
It will raise new bugs and give devs new inspiration.
Anyone want a poll on it?
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No. Decision should come as an executive order, not as a democratic consensus. Too many will say, "My precious!"
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Much as I love my characters and as much effort as I've put into levelling them, I wouldn't mind either a wipe or migrating to EZ.
Admittedly, however, my okay-ness with migrating is a little biased because I have such low ping on it *cough* >>;
As for uninformed players making all these pointless new guilds and duelling in the plaza, yes, that's incredibly obnoxious and needs to stop.
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Sorry Aiwendil, but I have to disagree... ;D One I did all the training I can stand to do years ago before I started RPing... I will not be going through that again. :P Two, Laanx is our server, if anything we should take it back. ;) I say if the rules of the server aren't being followed, make petitions. Sometimes it's not about the speed with which a problem is dealt with but that it is dealt with some how. If we give up on working with it, the problem will get worse. If necessary I will test the limits of how many petitions one person can submit. If the rules of the sever aren't followed, I will most definitely comment on it. ;)
I play Aiwendil now for a long time, and I also spent a lot time on leveling her. Still I think a wipe isn't the worst solution. Of course I would prefer to take Laanx back, I just see no way to do this. It's not that there weren't any tries like this (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35201.0), this (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34124.0) or this (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34105.0) (And a lot more, I'm just too stupid to search the PS forums). But still I see the situation getting worser and worser, especially in the past two or three month. We have a non-RP server but nobody wants to go there because there aren't enough others players to kill or to compete with. Nearly every new player on laanx gets caught by one of the new guilds in the first days they play by OOC recruiting. Not even a chance to show most of them that there are others things than endless guild wars. That's why I suggested moving the RPers to ezpcusa. They are a minority, I have to accept that. So it's easier to move them there than the rest 90% of the players. And by moving the RPers I also see the advantage that people think twice before they join the RP server and not just register to the first server in the list.
I'd say wipe both and let people make informed choices for the next release.
Sure, would be even a better solution. I just didn't dare to suggest this.
(and stop pestering me about xiosia :P )
This time it was not aimed at you ;) *Aiwendil hide*
On a more serious note I hardly log on unless I've the intent to RP and have the specific plan down. Basically, I don't do any casual RP on PS, or what I'd consider casual, so I can't really comment on the status of RP on the server, though I'm bias enough to agree with you just because you said it.
Thanks for this, but as always I suggest people shouldn't rely on my words and have a look for themselves. I'm too much of a "text-player" to be not biased in this issue.
I agree with everything except one little thing that was mentioned. The tavern fights stopped happening from what I've seen... the Yulbars and Rangers of Yliakum have calmed down. :P
Sorry, I can't agree there. I used to spend a lot time with Aiwendil in Kada El's. Just lately I have less time to visit Allelia. And the few times I managed to escape the Red Crystal Den and went there I almost every time witnessed a fight there. And sure, the three fights in an hour were a little bit exaggerated...I think it was two hours I spend there to see those fights.
I like to level some and RP some. I really like to be able to run from RP in area A to RP in area B without having to rest several times in between. I'm not willing to give up my levels to go to a new RP server. I hope I'm not the only one who thinks there needs to be a balance between leveling and RP as I personally think that either pure RP or pure leveling is to limiting.
Oh, please don't get me wrong Elady. This is not about PLing at all. It's about disruptive behavior. Nothing wrong with people who train their chars. I also don't have a problem if they never Roleplay at all. But people who think the plaza is a good place for their duels make it really hard for others to enjoy the atmosphere of Hydlaa. A better balancing would be nice indeed, but I'm not sure if it will stop things like this.
Anyone want a poll on it?
I agree with verden there. We all know what the outcome of such a poll would be. One of the reasons why I suggested moving the RPers to ezpcusa...there is no way that most players will agree on a wipe of Laanx, no matter if it would help to solve some issues. This is something the PS team had to decide.
So allow me some more words: We have two server, so please let us make use of them. Events like defending a fortress (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35577.0), Dlayo Slayer Championship (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35303.0) or Winch Duelling Championship (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34564.0) are for sure fun for a lot of players. But they don't belong on the RP server. I don't want to turn this in a fight what is the better...or main server. Players have different views on what is fun in PlaneShift. But for me it's obvious that those different views will always result in troubles when all people play on the same server.
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*Bakin gets out his soapbox*
I play my character when I'm online, sometimes "rp'ing", sometimes "pl'ing", but always in a polite and IC manner.
For me there is no distinction - I play my character. period.
Last time I was in Kada-El's, there was no trouble, and I've seen no disruptive behaviour for a long time.
I have never visited the other server, and it is only for testing. (maybe not, but that's my stance)
I certainly won't be moving there just because there are spoiled teens running around foolishly.
So I say don't make a big deal about it - If there's a player which is causing problems, /report him.
If our beloved Devs *may they develop fruitfully* decide to do something, I'm gonna support 'em 100%
But until something is done from their side, I'm just gonna play my char to my pleasure, and I suggest you others do the same.
*Bakin steps down again and moves on with his life*
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Im personally not sure if it really got worse or better; there are developments into both directions.
For example, when I meet new people I often see that they e.g. rp asking for how to get here and there, and I don't recall having seen that often in the past :) What happens more often to me is that people are, as you have written, so busy with their own stuff that it sometimes looks more like a single player game where others are widely ignored if they don't have anything to offer that helps in progressing with skills or items.
Nevertheless I have to agree that such behaviour like you were referring to is rather annoying. Happily are roleplaying rules enforced on laanx so this shouldn't happen there ::| </irony>
Like stated in other threads started many who rp on laanx as non-rpers or something between. Sure there are always people who do not even want to learn or consider it, but for the less serious cases there is hope that they will good players somewhen.
And as last point: No wipe! People like me who are only half-rpers would suffer ;D
Sen
#edit# Typo...
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Just my two tria ... but I think that raising the requirements for starting a new guild on laanx might help.
Currently anyone who can swing a pick for an hour or two and convince four other players to join can start one... For laanx I think it would help if only experienced players could start one. Perhaps raise the requirements to 500k or so and an IC interview with a gm or some in-game official who would test their ability to rp and their knowledge of the settings.
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ah wipe threads....
the memories, the memories.....
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Last time I was in Kada-El's, there was no trouble, and I've seen no disruptive behaviour for a long time.
I think two killed persons yesteday on the plaza and three the day before just in the short time I was there. People attacking others in Kada El's with their pets and spamming the main chat with useless attack messages. Ah, and I forgot all those people in guilds in war at the moment that run around in hyldaa with drawn weapons searching for their next victim.
So I say don't make a big deal about it - If there's a player which is causing problems, /report him.
This is not about OOC disruption. It's simple to deal with those for me. I just put the players on /ignore. A /report is not even needed for this. This is about the 90% of players on laanx who have no clue about Roleplay at all. At the moment there is no point in calling Laanx a RP server, it's simply not true (anymore).
Like stated in other threads started many who rp on laanx as non-rpers or something between. Sure there are always people who do not even want to learn or consider it, but for the less serious cases there is hope that they will good players somewhen.
Please let me say again that this is not a complain about people who do RP and PL at the same time or people who only train their skills but stay out of all RP. It's a complain about those who completely ignore everything around them and think that everything the game meachanics allow them to do is fine.
Just my two tria ... but I think that raising the requirements for starting a new guild on laanx might help.
Currently anyone who can swing a pick for an hour or two and convince four other players to join can start one... For laanx I think it would help if only experienced players could start one. Perhaps raise the requirements to 500k or so and an IC interview with a gm or some in-game official who would test their ability to rp and their knowledge of the settings.
Not sure about the 500K, that's a lot money...at least for me. I think I never had that much money in the two years I play. But an IC interview or at least a discussion in the forums about each new guild before it is allowed to be created seems to be a really good idea to me.
ah wipe threads....
the memories, the memories.....
Hehe, I'm open for every other solution. I only mentioned the wipe of ezpcusa because it just couldn't be turned in the RP server with the current naming policy there.
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A wipe isn't going to cure problems like people dueling on the plaza ( or people running around in Hydlaa with weapons drawn) or fighting in Kada-Els. To stop those problems we need some basic enforcement of the rules. Yes the number of GMs is limited and they have other issues to deal with most of the time I'm sure. Maybe the GM team needs to recruit some players who have proven to be trustworthy and have them run some additional guards who can enforce the no dueling and weapons drawn rules in Hydlaa. If someone is caught to many times breaking the rules in Hydlaa then ban them form laanx. People break the rules because they know they can get away with breaking the rules. That will not change no matter how many wipes or server moves you have. Now if people get caught breaking the rules and have to serve some kind of penalty then they will stop breaking the rules so often.
As for new guilds and new players getting sucked into them maybe we need some kind of mentor program. Established characters who are willing to spend some time helping newer characters/players. Yes some of this help would be OOC via tells or group but if it helps new characters along and gives them a more enjoyable time and makes them better players I think it is a good thing. I know I have a reputation as knowing a lot about cooking and will often get tells from people I've never met asking for help with getting started in cooking. I have no problem helping people when I can. Maybe we need a list of people willing to be mentors or advisors to new players. I think new people look to join a guild since they are looking for a support system. Offer them a support system outside of joining a guild ( and newer players don't know the difference from joining an older established guild vs joining a new guild) and maybe they would be more willing to take their time before joining a guild. I didn't join the first guild that asked me to join but I have a more independent nature than a lot of people.
Another idea is maybe we need to set up regular guild recruiting events so that people could get information about several guilds easily and then hopefully make a better decision about what guild they want to join. Kind of like meet and greet for guild who are looking for new members.
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To throw in another point:
Even if I put myself out of favour I think that gms should pay more attention to this. We made a big thing out of roleplaying rules and covenant, and now it looks like it has no consequences at all.
We assume there are laws within the game world, guards and whatever we need. But players/chars can simply ignore and do what they want, because nothing they do has consequences due to the lack of possibilities in game mechanics. Therefore we now have the rp rules. But players can simply ignore and do what they want, because nothing they do has consequences due to.... why?
Rather than <forbidden word that looks like w**e> I would hope that the rules actually do get enforced. If a gm sees a chars fighting in front of the guard tower they should get arrested[tm] (Like, get told they committed a crime and either put into jail or get banned for two hours or so). That would have a learning effect at least on those who just didn't know better.
A petition can't fully replace a system like that since they are wether realtime nor have comprhensive information/proofs about what happened.
The idea about guilds having to be approved is very good :)
Sen
#edit# And again I was too slow with my post...
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All protests against a wipe are "my precious" protests whether stated as such or not. This is a development system in an alpha state. If this was any other company in the world other than Atomic Blue, the characters would have been reset multiple times at this point. These developers have been too nice to you for this stage of development in a game. The database is jammed packed with the indirect fruits of past exploits. There is old bad data sitting around in the database. This is going to have to be cleared. Whether a wipe happens tomorrow or in two years, its going to happen. One of the primary benefits to a wipe is that a whole new class of bugs will surface and get taken care of, as well as the cleaning of the database. Nobody has yet posted details of what exactly a wipe will mean, so arguments on this are somewhat gratuitous until the terms of the wipe are actually stated.
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A wipe isn't going to cure problems like people dueling on the plaza ( or people running around in Hydlaa with weapons drawn) or fighting in Kada-Els. To stop those problems we need some basic enforcement of the rules.
I completely agree there. A wipe isn't helping at all...a strict separation of RP and Non-RP server will. Sorry if I wasn't clear about this, but this was my main intention for my suggesting to wipe ezpcusa. But if all those issues can be solved by enforcing the rules I'm the last one who will complain about it.
As for new guilds and new players getting sucked into them maybe we need some kind of mentor program. Established characters who are willing to spend some time helping newer characters/players. Yes some of this help would be OOC via tells or group but if it helps new characters along and gives them a more enjoyable time and makes them better players I think it is a good thing. I know I have a reputation as knowing a lot about cooking and will often get tells from people I've never met asking for help with getting started in cooking. I have no problem helping people when I can. Maybe we need a list of people willing to be mentors or advisors to new players. I think new people look to join a guild since they are looking for a support system. Offer them a support system outside of joining a guild ( and newer players don't know the difference from joining an older established guild vs joining a new guild) and maybe they would be more willing to take their time before joining a guild. I didn't join the first guild that asked me to join but I have a more independent nature than a lot of people.
I don't blame new players for joining those guilds, I blame the guilds for even existing on a RP server. And the idea of mentors is nice, but who is going to do this? And how should they be selected? Should everyone be able to become such a mentor? What is the difference to the current situation with OOC guilds teaching new players then? Hehe...and I doubt I'm the right person to complain about OOC help. Nothing wrong with this.
Xargon Guurn says: Let's see if you are paying attention... Is using the help channel asking how to use the furnace an in character or out of character means of getting help?
Another idea is maybe we need to set up regular guild recruiting events so that people could get information about several guilds easily and then hopefully make a better decision about what guild they want to join. Kind of like meet and greet for guild who are looking for new members.
Sure, but that's something the guilds need to organize themselves. Not so sure if it would be a good idea for the outlaws to attend such an recruitment event.
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Actually, we could just have Non-RP and RP instances on each server. By default, one would be in the Non-RP instance, and would have to actually apply for the RP instance. Guilds costs should be raised to 100k (after a wipe). The problem with rules-enforcement, organizing, approval of guilds, tutoring players is that the people that provide these functions need to be present 24/7 otherwise they will not get taken seriously by anyone. A programmatic series of approaches will be the only thing in the long run that will guarantee that the features are applied equally to all users without bias or hint of bias. There has been significant trouble in the past with people abusing the system from both without and within.
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Actually, we could just have Non-RP and RP instances on each server. By default, one would be in the Non-RP instance, and would have to actually apply for the RP instance. Guilds costs should be raised to 100k (after a wipe). The problem with rules-enforcement, organizing, approval of guilds, tutoring players is that the people that provide these functions need to be present 24/7 otherwise they will not get taken seriously by anyone. A programmatic series of approaches will be the only thing in the long run that will guarantee that the features are applied equally to all users without bias or hint of bias. There has been significant trouble in the past with people abusing the system from both without and within.
Umm.. nice a idea but if people don't want to put the effort into going to EZPC why would they hassle with the instance? ??? And raising the guild cost 100k is not a problem for people willing to grind. It is a bad idea to separate RPers from eveyone else though. I'm sorry but a great deal of RPers complain a great deal and then when appeased sit and do nothing. >:(
I have been running the Stonehead tavern for months now. If you have a problem with the RP atmosphere in Hydlaa come out to the tavern. And there are plenty ways to justify it. If you can't spread out and let your character do slightly different things then you have a problem much greater than ooc guild battles. Nothing will ever fix what goes on in hydlaa... people comming from other MMOs will initially treat PS the same, so there always bee these infractures. But if you let it make you not find other ways or places to RP then that shows a lack of imagination... ;)
And to add for good measure... http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35293.msg407468#msg407468 (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35293.msg407468#msg407468)
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Poll proposal:
What would you prefer?
A Enforce roleplay on Laanx, punish more violations and punish harder
B Soften rules on Laanx
C Keep things as they are
Maybe you could also offer people to migrate their trained char(s) to ezpcusa. This might be an alternative, because I think many PL-onlyers just do not switch servers because of the high skills of their chars (among other reasons Aiwendil described above).
I think a wipe is no solution at the moment because many might leave after a wipe and there are too few players around already.
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I'll just say yes I realize the game in in development and I can liven with a wipe if it is needed to further the development process. I just don't want to see a wipe as a solution for people behaving badly in the game when such a wipe will not do anything to solve the problem.
The better enforce the laws in Hydlaa we don't need guards on duty 24/7. The idea isn't to catch every single instance of fighting or people running around with weapons in hand. The idea is to catch enough people, and punish them, so that people will think twice about doing these things. Some people wil always push their luck and break the rules and hope they don't get caught. But most people will tend to avoid breaking the rules if they feel there is enough of a chance that they will get caught and busted for breaking the rules. Maybe just a concentrated period of rule enforcement for a short period will be enough to reduce the problem of fighting in the city for a long time. I have plenty of RL experience to know you can tell people until you are blue in the face to stop breaking rule but it isn't until you have a period of strict enforcement of the rules and you penalize some people that most will start to follow the rules.. Generally once you have gotten the message across you can lighten up on the enforcement for a while until the problem starts getting bad again.
As for people who are willing to act as mentors maybe have them sign up on the forum and then hopefully advisors or others in game can use that list to refer new characters looking for help to the volunteer mentors.
No proposal will be perfect and if you want to you can pick holes in any proposal. The idea isn't to make things perfect but how to take steps to make things better than they are currently.
And I'll second Illysia's plug for people looking for RP to come out to the Stonehead and keep us volunteers to are working there company and RP with us. Illysia has done a great job getting the Stonehead up and running and I think we have a good crew of folks who are there on a regular basis to give you someone to talk to or help support your RP.
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Just some things I'd like to mention...
Firstly @Verden specifically, raising prices to make a guild isn't going to help.... Raising the prices will just encourage more grind. I'm not saying players raising money is wrong, or leveling is wrong, only that your logic there is faulty. The more you raise the price won't discourage players from trying to make it. It will only increase the amount who do...Look at WoW for example, they raise the levels and the amount of grind needed, but that only makes players more desperate to
reach it. It's the whole 'beat the game' mindset.
The idea about guilds having to be approved is very good.
Approved guilds is a good idea. I'm sure its been mentioned before in the past and then it was no doubt a good idea too. The question is who is doing the approving? We have, in the past, had a specific guild forums mod if I'm remembering right and he was pretty good at his job. Even then though, you didn't get 'approved' to be a guild. You could run the guild however you wanted regardless...You can try to make a Guild Covenant (like the RP Covenant) but I question how well the method would work. Still, its a good idea. I prefer the idea of someone waving a hammer towards everything that sucks but you've got to have someone chosen for the job who can do it.
As for new guilds and new players getting sucked into them maybe we need some kind of mentor program.
A mentor program sounds good too but I'm unsure on how it would be executed. A way that works doesn't directly come to mind.
At the moment I'm tempted to say that the guild creation system should be changed....But I think I'll make a separate thread to express those thoughts and not let this thread go off topic.
I think a wipe is no solution at the moment because many might leave after a wipe and there are too few players around already.
Its a good point but one day players will have to realize wipes will be inevitable, whether to fix bugs or because XilliX feels like it :P
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just meh two tria [i always thought tria is better pluralized as tria] about the law enforcment
it needs to be handled IC which is sorta the problem, they need more guards and all. If i [hypothetically :P ] was evil then i should be able to attack someone in a city, however i shouldnt be banned, i should have a guard or 30 sicked on me. I think the gms could totally have "higher citizens] or guards who are entitled to be officers of the peace. But you cant deal with it with bans, IC, i draw my sword and disapear for a week? I think not, i draw my sword a guard sees me and arrests, much better [you know what i mean].
yeah
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Bah you don't need a wipe, you just need random instances of perma-death, when your number comes up dakkru owns your soul.
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just meh two tria [i always thought tria is better pluralized as tria] about the law enforcment
it needs to be handled IC which is sorta the problem, they need more guards and all. If i [hypothetically :P ] was evil then i should be able to attack someone in a city, however i shouldnt be banned, i should have a guard or 30 sicked on me. I think the gms could totally have "higher citizens] or guards who are entitled to be officers of the peace. But you cant deal with it with bans, IC, i draw my sword and disapear for a week? I think not, i draw my sword a guard sees me and arrests, much better [you know what i mean].
yeah
Ok... yeah.... X-/ No offense, good idea in theory but not in practice. Players have the chance to be guards now and won't touch the position with a ten foot pole in most cases. If not enough players can do guard duty for the player run areas, there is no way the Devs or GMs are going to let them be Hydlaa city guards. Player guards is a nice idea up until we all admit that very few people actually want to do the job.
And on the topic of bans... OOC problems deserve and OOC response. We don't want people thinking they can be "smart" and hem the GMs up with a little fake RP. I'm sorry but for awhile at least the banhammer needs to drop constantly. Then when people get a clear idea of the boundaries and that their foolishness won't be tolerated, then maybe let up. ;) Depends on how seriously players take this. This ain't WoW and people need to learn to adjust quick or take it to EZPC.
Bah you don't need a wipe, you just need random instances of perma-death, when your number comes up dakkru owns your soul.
That would be funny actually. ;D
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Oh god, you maniacs... I got some bug drive time in before the Lloigor took my soul and made me treat this like a serious conversation... I bet if we rewarded bug testing with forum post credits we'd get a lot more work and less rambling... but anyway. Sorry to do this, but dammit I wrote it out and its getting posted.
Duraza, you are correct. But consider theoretically 1) wipe then 2) raise guild price to 1 million tria. I bet you wouldn't see many out-of-settings guilds around for a while. If someone really wanted to be a pisser about it, each successive guild created could increment the cost of buying a guild system-wide. Nothing in way of price of creating a guild right now is going to do anything. I am considering this from starting with a zero point on the system. Also, there will always be grind. Show me one system where it does not exist that anyone gives a damn about. Character progression is the whole point of a game. No progression, no game.
Umm.. nice a idea but if people don't want to put the effort into going to EZPC why would they hassle with the instance?
They wouldn't, they would still be playing on the open field, the default instance. But instancing would provide a place for the roleplayers to be able to focus upon their stories without interruption in the secondary instance. Perhaps even there could be a means for talented folks such as yourself to traverse the instances at will and continue with your productions for the benefit of the unenlightened masses.
I think a wipe is no solution at the moment because many might leave after a wipe and there are too few players around already.
We have lost players many times; bugs, the game being incomplete, exploits, lack of content, changes to existing systems, et cetera. Shortly after the Tria & Silverweave party a couple of years ago, we lost a bunch including but not limited to about 90% of The Enlightened. Changes to the dueling system made a goodly chunk of players leave a bit after that. Remember the infamous Silverweave nerf? And there have been incidents involving people of authority on the system in the past that have caused players to leave.
None of these incidents, despite much haranguing on the part of the players du jour, have incredibly impacted the system. That is because the system is primary, and the players are secondary. That is not a slight, only the observable fact. The players could not be on the system, if the system did not exist in the first place. The system is primary. Nature abhors a void, and there will always be players.
I have been watching this system for a few years now. The online numbers ebb and flow. But if anyone has a graph of population daily for the last five years, it would be interesting to see -- as I think it would be -- if it has roughly remained constant over time. For every person who leaves in a huff, there are 1000 more people looking for something, something to play and provide them with a level of distraction. And the ones that would persist through the wipe would be gold. Like yourselves.
The tricky thing about this project is that it is a test/alpha getting treated like a stable release by most players. Because of this there are players that have accrued substantial benefits in the past. How much does 34,596 glyphs weigh? Why don't we allow trading between sacks? The most obvious issues were reset partially. In the case of the Tria & Silverweave Party, money values were wiped. That is not to say that someone did not fill their alts up and still end up with a ton of free money.
Consider the effect of the NPC server behavior. NPC server is down most of the time. Want 10000 PP? If you have any clue at all, you know where to go and what to do, you can get that in a day or two or four. All characters on the system unless completely passive, and possibly even then, have gained benefits by virtue of the fact that the MOB AI and server are unfinished. This is wrong. The team knows it. It is only a matter of time before imbalances are addressed.
Since the team is committed to providing a game for all, then the gaussian noise of the unenlightened will continue and guess what? Its going to get WORSE. People can't afford their WoW accounts anymore. They don't like the item shops in other games. None of the other games has the feel of PlaneShift when it is good.
Okay, I am sorry I wrote a novel and talked about wipes, Neko. Xillix started it... Xillix is very wise. And maybe he just likes to snap peoples shorts occasionally for fun.
And on the topic of bans... OOC problems deserve and OOC response. We don't want people thinking they can be "smart" and hem the GMs up with a little fake RP. I'm sorry but for awhile at least the banhammer needs to drop constantly. Then when people get a clear idea of the boundaries and that their foolishness won't be tolerated, then maybe let up. ;) Depends on how seriously players take this. This ain't WoW and people need to learn to adjust quick or take it to EZPC.
I see nothing wrong with this. Except if it was an instance they could be there a lot quicker. It could fire after Laanx strikes someone down. The player wouldn't notice.
Bah you don't need a wipe, you just need random instances of perma-death, when your number comes up dakkru owns your soul.
I bet two tria perma-death is in the plan. I highly doubt that the various quests are just being developed to go nowhere. But I like Dakkroulette!
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just meh two tria [i always thought tria is better pluralized as tria] about the law enforcment
it needs to be handled IC which is sorta the problem, they need more guards and all. If i [hypothetically :P ] was evil then i should be able to attack someone in a city, however i shouldnt be banned, i should have a guard or 30 sicked on me. I think the gms could totally have "higher citizens] or guards who are entitled to be officers of the peace. But you cant deal with it with bans, IC, i draw my sword and disapear for a week? I think not, i draw my sword a guard sees me and arrests, much better [you know what i mean].
yeah
I agree, but for the more difficult cases who just /die out of the prison a second step might be needed in order to make the enforcement meaningful.
Sen
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One complains about people not roleplaying on the roleplay server.
Others could complain about roleplaying and not being recognised by other roleplayers as such. Famous roleplayers not being curious about a strange character is something unexpected.
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Duraza, you are correct. But consider theoretically 1) wipe then 2) raise guild price to 1 million tria. I bet you wouldn't see many out-of-settings guilds around for a while. If someone really wanted to be a pisser about it, each successive guild created could increment the cost of buying a guild system-wide. Nothing in way of price of creating a guild right now is going to do anything. I am considering this from starting with a zero point on the system. Also, there will always be grind. Show me one system where it does not exist that anyone gives a damn about. Character progression is the whole point of a game. No progression, no game.
All that would do is create a race to be the first and then the next and the next and the next. It's wouldn't be much of a deterrent until it got insanely high as people will race each other to take advantage of the lower price.
I think a wipe is no solution at the moment because many might leave after a wipe and there are too few players around already.
We have lost players many times; bugs, the game being incomplete, exploits, lack of content, changes to existing systems, et cetera. Shortly after the Tria & Silverweave party a couple of years ago, we lost a bunch including but not limited to about 90% of The Enlightened. Changes to the dueling system made a goodly chunk of players leave a bit after that. Remember the infamous Silverweave nerf? And there have been incidents involving people of authority on the system in the past that have caused players to leave.
None of these incidents, despite much haranguing on the part of the players du jour, have incredibly impacted the system. That is because the system is primary, and the players are secondary. That is not a slight, only the observable fact. The players could not be on the system, if the system did not exist in the first place. The system is primary. Nature abhors a void, and there will always be players.
I have been watching this system for a few years now. The online numbers ebb and flow. But if anyone has a graph of population daily for the last five years, it would be interesting to see -- as I think it would be -- if it has roughly remained constant over time. For every person who leaves in a huff, there are 1000 more people looking for something, something to play and provide them with a level of distraction. And the ones that would persist through the wipe would be gold. Like yourselves.
Sorry but this one is just not true... I have been playing for around 4 years and there has been a considerable drop in players and too, the increase in areas has lead to a lot of spreading out. Way back when, if nothing else you could go to Harn's and find several GROUPS of people standing around RPing, now... X-/ All too often, people leave and aren't replaced. It used to be balanced when PS was one of the only free to play games, but now there are too many. It's not a choice between One subscription game and any others. There are tons of free to play games out there now and people will go to the more developed games a lot of the time.
Bah you don't need a wipe, you just need random instances of perma-death, when your number comes up dakkru owns your soul.
I bet two tria perma-death is in the plan. I highly doubt that the various quests are just being developed to go nowhere. But I like Dakkroulette!
Nah, I think a wipe will come before people just start getting their accounts deleted.
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Actually, we could just have Non-RP and RP instances on each server. By default, one would be in the Non-RP instance, and would have to actually apply for the RP instance.
So we have a RP and a Non-RP instance on the RP server? What's the point in calling it a RP-server at all then?
I have been running the Stonehead tavern for months now. If you have a problem with the RP atmosphere in Hydlaa come out to the tavern. And there are plenty ways to justify it. If you can't spread out and let your character do slightly different things then you have a problem much greater than ooc guild battles. Nothing will ever fix what goes on in hydlaa... people comming from other MMOs will initially treat PS the same, so there always bee these infractures. But if you let it make you not find other ways or places to RP then that shows a lack of imagination... ;)
And to add for good measure... http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35293.msg407468#msg407468 (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35293.msg407468#msg407468)
And I'll second Illysia's plug for people looking for RP to come out to the Stonehead and keep us volunteers to are working there company and RP with us. Illysia has done a great job getting the Stonehead up and running and I think we have a good crew of folks who are there on a regular basis to give you someone to talk to or help support your RP.
Sorry, as much as I appreciate your efforts in the Stonehead tavern I can't agree on giving up the whole RP server and surrender to the last RP spots that are still there.
Firstly @Verden specifically, raising prices to make a guild isn't going to help.... Raising the prices will just encourage more grind. I'm not saying players raising money is wrong, or leveling is wrong, only that your logic there is faulty. The more you raise the price won't discourage players from trying to make it. It will only increase the amount who do...Look at WoW for example, they raise the levels and the amount of grind needed, but that only makes players more desperate to
reach it. It's the whole 'beat the game' mindset.
I can only agree there. I can't see how more grinding should lead to more RP guilds. I'm pretty sure that all those new guilds really wanted to create their guild. And if we increase the price for creating a guild they still will do it...it will just take three days longer. My problem is that they choose the wrong server to create those guilds. Approved guilds could be a solution for this.
it needs to be handled IC which is sorta the problem, they need more guards and all. If i [hypothetically :P ] was evil then i should be able to attack someone in a city, however i shouldnt be banned, i should have a guard or 30 sicked on me. I think the gms could totally have "higher citizens] or guards who are entitled to be officers of the peace. But you cant deal with it with bans, IC, i draw my sword and disapear for a week? I think not, i draw my sword a guard sees me and arrests, much better [you know what i mean].
I can only agree with Illysia here. Yes, OOC solutions are not nice, but someone fighting right in front of a NPC guard already destroyed the atmosphere...not much a OOC ban can destroyed there more. We have a second server for this kind of behaviour, people just need to realize that it's not appropriate for the RP server.
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Duraza, you are correct. But consider theoretically 1) wipe then 2) raise guild price to 1 million tria. I bet you wouldn't see many out-of-settings guilds around for a while. If someone really wanted to be a pisser about it, each successive guild created could increment the cost of buying a guild system-wide. Nothing in way of price of creating a guild right now is going to do anything. I am considering this from starting with a zero point on the system. Also, there will always be grind. Show me one system where it does not exist that anyone gives a damn about. Character progression is the whole point of a game. No progression, no game.
All that would do is create a race to be the first and then the next and the next and the next. It's wouldn't be much of a deterrent until it got insanely high as people will race each other to take advantage of the lower price.
Is it just me, or would this be interesting to see? Sorry about being off topic, its just it would be cool to study the conscious/sub-conscious drive of the masses, therefore be able to accurately decide what would be the best way to make things happen. Learn which hound will heard the most sheep. :D
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(http://towardintelligence.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/geez-magazine-find-the-eyes-to-see.jpg)
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Maybe you can enlight stupid people like me what you actually want to say with that picture...?
Sen
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The more people, the more points-of-view. ;)
Everyone has his own style of roleplaying. Some are more compatible to non-roleplayers, some less.
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And lets not overlook the tape that is locking their hands to the tunnels...
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[...] What happens more often to me is that people are, as you have written, so busy with their own stuff that it sometimes looks more like a single player game where others are widely ignored if they don't have anything to offer that helps in progressing with skills or items.
[...]
Just wanted to quote this, as it is such simple and true a statement (albeit not specifically a PS one).
Add, to that possible difficulty of finding a likely minded player, the said rise of unchecked, unchallenged disrupting behaviour (I'll trust the author of the post on that one), and I'd say that something would be good that helps to somewhat identify the players, not only the characters. Simplest thing that comes to mind is the name label; there are colours for PCs, NPCs, GMs, etc., so maybe let people check a RP open or Kick Ass Only or whatnot box and make that appear in the label (with a colour tone, a sign, underline...)
Something like that can benefits all players, including the new ones, who would direct their dialog according to their preferences.
I still believe in playing by example, and that IC response if the best to OOC behaviour. RPers have to contaminate their fellow players. A RPer will always have his immersion ruined once in a while by an obviously much younger, uneducated, uncivilised, possibly alien philistine; well, for what I've seen, RPers don't even need non RPers to achieve that. My point is: why talk about banning people, when the same people can potentially become characters you'll enjoy playing with ?
Obviously, what PS lacks is a jail, or something similarly appropriate to deliver an IC response to OOC disruption. I'm not talking about playing rogues and a justice system here, just a basic punishment system for players, not for characters. Punishing a player by punishing a character offers the advantage of rehabilitation, for most of the disruption is not malevolent. 24 IG hours in jail for the 1st fight in town is not a big deal, but annoying enough for a player (at least if /die is temporarily disabled, his equipment taken until he is out, and whatever is technically doable to make it feel real is added to the pain). No extra load for the GMs (/jail instead of /ban or whatever they use), no need to watch the Plaza 24/7, no visitors inside the jail, ever... I would even add a NPC in there, with no other purpose than to constantly lecture the naughty boys and girls, feed them, and lecture them some more (with some tutorial-like NPC chat).
One final thought about showing examples: the Auction tab is always full of OOC stuff. One might as well use it to advertise, once in a while, a RP session where everybody is welcome as long as they bring their ICness.
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just meh two tria [i always thought tria is better pluralized as tria] about the law enforcment
2 tria = a value equal to the one of 2 tria coins
2 trias = 2 single tria coins, physically
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From http://www.planeshift.it/policies.html (http://www.planeshift.it/policies.html):
The game is about roleplay, so part of the rules are to encourage or "enforce" it as smoothly as possible.
Looking at the rules, as smoothly as possible doesn't seem very smooth or possible:
While playing PlaneShift, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players.
You may not enter into gameplay practices that cause disruption of gameplay for other players, or adversely affect game performance.
You may not use any harmful, hateful, abusive, vulgar, defamatory, obscene, racial, ethnically offensive, nor sexually explicit language to any other players nor members of the PlaneShift team.
You may not impersonate any Game Masters nor members of the PlaneShift team.
You may not violate any Local, State, National, or International law or regulation.
You may not organize nor be part of any guilds or groups that are based on, or espouse, any racist, sexist, anti-religious, anti-ethnic, anti-gay or other hate-mongering philosophy.
When communicating in Planeshift using the Chat, you may not spam, flood, or make duplicate messages.
You may not post or communicate personal information of any player in the game or the website/forum of Planeshift.
You will not attempt to interfere with, hack into, or decipher any transmissions to or from the servers running Planeshift.
You may not create "bots" or automation programs with the purpose of profiteering or advancing unattended.
You will not exploit any bug in Planeshift.
You may not market, promote, advertise, or solicit within the PlaneShift game or on the official PlaneShift website.
You may not advertise the intent to or commit the act of buying or selling game items for real money.
Aside of the naming policy (which I'm fine with) these are by no means the rules of an RP server, or game for the matter.
Now let's assume (which may be assuming too much) that PS does really strive to be an RP game, which would mean (correct me if I'm wrong) that RP is above anything else and every change/implementation is done with improving it in mind.
These could be the rules for an RP game/server (taken and translated from a Lineage 2 RP server):
General
Account Validation
- <Naming policy similar to PS's>
- About the character's background:
Backgrounds must fit to the server's setting, taking the happened events, the history and the current situation into account.
Backgrounds must be original. Not borrowed or adapted or translated nor modified. Unique for any single character and written by your own.
Backgrounds that mod the server's setting won't be allowed.
The presented text must be readable and easy to understand, it is advised to make good use of spelling and grammar.
Game Rules
Behavior
Respect and good manners towards every other user. Lack of respect out of RP will be punished, including private tabs.
Chat tabs
Main: Only RP within the game setting.
Shout: Only RP, used to raise your voice. Conversations shall not be held in shouts.
Auction: Used to trade, announce RP events, or ask for help. Conversations here may be punished.
Group: For OOC conversations within the members of the same party.
Guild: OOC chat amongst guild members.
Alliance: OOC chat amongst alliance members.
Whisper: IC when chracters are close to each other, can be used OOC when both characters are far away from each other.
<Peace Areas - useless in PS since most of it is not a PvP area>
Harshly punishable actions (added only the ones not regarding strictly L2 mechanics)
- Infiltrating a guild with the objective of getting information or equipment for third parties is strictly prohibited and punished with the only exception of both parties being aware of the player's situation and accept it due to RP matters.
- Any action that, provided mechanics, has no other objective than become annyoing or harmful for other players in any way.
<Bug Exploiting - useless since we have other bugs in PS>
Items
Stealing gear, materials or any other kind of items is strictly forbidden and punished with the only exception of both parties agreeing due to RP matters.
The staff doesn't transfer items from one player to another even under petition of the owner. Lent items are under his/her responsability and risk must be assumed by the owner.
Roleplay Coherence
The game's main objective is fun thus, under any circumstamce, the player must stick to his/her character's role leaving OOC problems or arguments behind. It's important to hold the role and alignment considering every character and not doing so may be punished.
Roleplaying Rules
Roleplaying
- In order to keep the roleplay atmosphere it is strictly forbidden to use modern language (such as dood, lol, cool, etc) and abusive insults or those that are out of the roleplay context.
- Nothing of the spoken in the OOC tabs may have an influence in the IC ones.
- Name labels aren't visible thus your character can't see them.
Behavior in Main tab
- Thoughts: They are thoughts of your (or other) character that can't be taken into account for RP. Player will know but the character won't.
- Whispers: Only the receptor can hear it. It shall not be taken into account into RP by other players.
- Actions: Any physical action described by an emote.
- OOC: Exclusive to clearing up IC matters with more than 2 players involved. Avoid as much as possible.
<Stealth - Set of rules on how to use cloaks and other disguises, not that we have such a system yet>
Guild badges
- If the player has specified bearing the guild's crest it will be understood it is visible. Otherwise it will be understood that it is hidden and it will not be possible for your character to tell which order does the individual belong to.
Godmodding
Godmodding happens when a character is forced into a situation without his/her consent.
<set of examples very similar to any you can find in a decent RPing guide>
Guilds and Alliances
Guilds
Creation of guilds is free for the user, even though only the lvl 3 or higher, which have at least 5 members and a posted guild thread will be considered Official. Official guilds will have a political and social weight (voice and vote in Leaders Management).
The thread must be approved by the staff and must include:
- Guild history
- Reason for the union and defined objectives.
- Politics and ideology
Alliances
Creation of alliances is free amongst guilds as long as they stick to their role and alignment carried to the day.
It's also advised to post in the forums and explain the causes and consequences of the alliance.
Guilds Autocontrol
- Guilds shall work as autocontroled cores thus if a guild keeps a well known offender, the punishement after teh second high offense will affect both player and guild.
- The punishment system is as follows:
1st offense: Punishment to the player and warning to the guild leader so that he/she fixes it.
2nd offense: Punishment to the player and chance for the guild leader to either remove him/her for the guild or to assume the player's same punishment.
3rd offense: Punishment to the player, leader and guild as a whole.
- Punishment to the guild may differ depending on the fault:
Economical punishment
Guild level decrease
Loss of Reputation points
Loss of part of the guild's items
Loss of the guildhouse
Guild's disbanding
Fights
PvP
It is demanded to stay coherent in regard to the character's role/alignment in all cases. It makes no sense to attack somebody else for no reason.
- Looser shall sit for 5 minures. In this state, the looser won't be able to oppose to any of the winner's actions.
- Winner can arrest the looser if desired.
The arrested must stay in place and do as the winner says, so he can't move. Once resurrected he/she won't be able to escape the chains in any way or escape. He/she shall stay where commanded without unsheathing weapons until liberation.
If an arrest doesn't happen, the looser shall wait at least 15 minutes before going back to the battlefield for revenge.
PK
It is demanded to stay coherent in regard to the character's role/alignment in all cases. It makes no sense to attack somebody else for no reason.
- Killing the same character more than once a day is forbidden unless such is provoking the PK.
- It isn't possible to identify a PK due to his label or accuse or suspect him/her of murder. PK will be affected the same way when interacting to NPCs.
Guild wars
War happens only when the struggle has been accepted by both parties. If one of the parties doesn't accept the war, the usual procedure for PvP and PK shall be used.
- Guildhouses: Attacking inside guildhouses is allowed as long as the doors are open or the aggressor is inside such guildhouse. Once the PvP is over the agressor must exit the guildhouse. Rules about robbery stand.
- Roleplay: Even in war state you must roleplay at least a minimum amount before or after the PvP considering the scene's background. PvP happening without any roleplay will be punished.
- Peace areas: Churches and respawn poitns are considered safe areas even during war.
Before you say this wouldn't work: I can tell it does, I play there eventually and the player counts are usually around 150-200 even if it's a non-english server. These are the rules, no suggestions, no encouragement. Simply the rules to be allowed to play.
...
At this point, GMs will usually do nothing to prevent blatantly low quality "RP" such as bazookas and pokemon fights (trust me, I've seen these on Laanx).
New players see this kind of RP and assume it's fine to do it.
New players join the ultimate mass-recruiting guild whose leaders also think it's fine.
New players don't get the chance to learn how to RP properly (as in following the setting and keeping IC/OOC separated, etc).
New players get involved and used to doubtful "RP" thus tend to take it as something normal and valid.
If we want to have an RP game RP must be enforced. Most new players will still take the easiest path and "encouraging" won't really work, even less if it's "encouraged" by material rewards; players will do anything to get the rewards and forget about RP once the event is done. From http://www.planeshift.it/index.html (http://www.planeshift.it/index.html): Events are a good way to develop your character and to earn yourself rare and valuable rewards.
GMs should RP often, should be good RPers, should be able to interfere in RP that goes out of the setting, should be able to give new players advice as to what direction should they progress into to become a better RPer.
Give the GMs the tools they need to do this, namely a set of rules for Roleplay. We do have an RP server? I don't see it yet.
Recruit GMs who can and want to RP and rid of the ones who can't or want not.
Have GMs intervene when off-setting RP happens and put it back in the right path.
Give players who can RP and want to help with this the right tools to also 1) teach new players and 2) conduct RPs to the right path.
Elady's suggestion is good in my point of view, but as it is now, there'll always be somebody sending a tell who can be much faster getting a new player's attention than any RPer will be in Main.
The amount of OOC driven gameplay and RP must decrease.
Stop the stupid guilds creation via rulesets (most of those guild leaders won't bother reading them, that stops a few already).
Stop the complains about favoritism via rulesets, make decisions objective.
Wipes won't fix anything and there is no point in discussing them. There'll be one whenever it has to be and soon after the same players who have them now will have the higher levels.
The hippy sort of reply such as "it's all fine, be tolerant" isn't going anywhere either. Anybody who actually plays can see the situation in-game isn't specially good. Acting like nothing happens will only make it worse.
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For the guild creation problem here is an idea. We have the OSP which after the recent first round now has a combination of GMs and guild reps that will judge the second round of OSP applications. What if there was a OSP type committee for handing out licenses for new guilds. Basically if someone wants to do a new guild they would have to make a presentation to the OSP style committee and convince the committee that there is a need for the new proposed guild. If the guild applicant convinces the majority of the committee then the new guild is given permission to be formed.
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[i got tired after page 2.5
i especially like under the moon's cartoon... it's real good!.. stating exactly what this is about]
[in general about RP:
1) people can want to form guilds for RP reasons (gives them a home and friends)
2) people can fight in places they are not allowed by law for RP reasons (they wanna break the law)
3) people can make troubles in bars for RP reasons (they get drunk, or wanna break the law)
4) people can back up RP actions with game mechanics for even better RP (they are so called natural players, if you don't understand that: go on a chat box.. RPG is RPG after all]
[to Aiwendil:
two of the 3 player events you mentioned were IC... the 3rd is not that IC.. i admit, BUT who are you to judge em having not organised any event?]
[in general.. easier to point fingers at others than at oneself]
Perlan bows
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[to Aiwendil:
two of the 3 player events you mentioned were IC... the 3rd is not that IC.. i admit, BUT who are you to judge em having not organised any event?]
You, who can't tell the difference between IC and OOC (proof is in the brackets of your own post, thank you) must be somewhat kidding.
I must admit that it gave me a good laugh, but also the urge to post which ashames me.
This much about the ones not having organized any event:
http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35325.0
http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35474.0
http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34877.0
http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35262.0
You have to think twice before pressing the Post button.
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ok, so you bite....
i treat ppl the same way as they treat others... i know there were events
dlayo championship had IC reasons, since our sword was stolen, we were getting it back
duelling championships are always IC.. ppl gathering in festivities from all over the land to fight (as to where is pointed to the magic shop championship)
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perlyboy... get real. Seriously. Dlayo Championships? Dude, there are FOUR Dlayo Gladiators in that pit. All they do is sit there. They are GLADIATORS. They don't steal swords, or harm you... they're just gladiators, and they fight in the arena. That's all. There was no point whatsoever in that event.
As for these dueling championships... no, they're not always IC. I'll be surprised if they're IC. People always yell out OOC obscenities and silly crap that you can't possibly tell me is IC.
It's guilds like the Warriors, Nexus, Wayward Kingdom, Prophets, Guardian merchants, etc. etc... that really degrade what roleplay is supposed to be. You set the standards so low that the game is becoming a cesspool of retardation. That's what this post is about... you can keep trying to defend yourself, but before you go on with your silly claims, take a look in the mirror.
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It's guilds like the Warriors, Nexus, Wayward Kingdom, Prophets, Guardian merchants, etc. etc... that really degrade what roleplay is supposed to be.
Skrein you're the second person to make me laugh :P
Honestly though, as much as I hate to side against you, don't target the guilds. Why? There are still roleplays, at least in the Warriors and Nexus. I can't speak for Wayward Kingdom and Guardian Merchants. As for Prophets, I'll hold comment. Point is don't blame the guild for existing, blame the players who guided the guild wrongly of created it for reasons that only degrade RP. They don't have to promote it but if they degrade it as has been complained then it is those players who are at fault.
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It's guilds like the Warriors, Nexus, Wayward Kingdom, Prophets, Guardian merchants, etc. etc... that really degrade what roleplay is supposed to be.
Skrein you're the second person to make me laugh :P
Honestly though, as much as I hate to side against you, don't target the guilds. Why? There are still roleplays, at least in the Warriors and Nexus. I can't speak for Wayward Kingdom and Guardian Merchants. As for Prophets, I'll hold comment. Point is don't blame the guild for existing, blame the players who guided the guild wrongly of created it for reasons that only degrade RP. They don't have to promote it but if they degrade it as has been complained then it is those players who are at fault.
Fair enough.
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perlyboy... get real. Seriously. Dlayo Championships? Dude, there are FOUR Dlayo Gladiators in that pit. All they do is sit there. They are GLADIATORS. They don't steal swords, or harm you... they're just gladiators, and they fight in the arena. That's all. There was no point whatsoever in that event.
WRONG! The Dlayo's don't just sit there, I'm sure they babble amongst themselves, have their favorite opponent, discuss how stupid their previous attackers were... the Dlayo's have personalities too! Let's keep the RP in here!! Why isn't a Dlayo capable of doing something bad, eh? Because it's a mob you just fight? I know that one of em gets very cuddly when drunk :) [GM playing a Dlayo said that once, hehe]
What I'm trying to say is, use your imagination. You're not going to like all the things that happen in a city, but just because you don't like them doesn't mean they're bad. I welcome any event in the game, because whatever it is, it creates life in PS, and can always be used IC'ly. [Hey, did you hear? A Dlayo's been out of the arena at night and broke in...] I will agree however that there are players attracted to these events that shout out random OOC language, but don't blame the event for that, blame the players who do so during the event. [However, OOC remarks can be pretty hilarious sometimes too *giggle* ]
Basically what I'm trying to point out is a bit of tolerance towards those who enjoy fighting. Tournaments are IC, I enjoy going there and watching them. The last event where each player had 5 minutes to slay as many Dlayo's as possible was also very interesting and fun to watch. Warriors coming together to compete, why not?
The choice is up to you, be annoyed and make a hassle, or see the good in it and make the best out of all that happens.
Relax, and enjoy the game. RP is king, it never dies anyway <3
~ Melly
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Perlan sighs
[so we can use our imagination whenever, as long as it doesn't concern something that one would have maybe trained for?....
tournaments are bad, m'kay, fighting is bad, m'kay, you shouldn't do tournaments, m'kay]]
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No one even knows what a Dlayo is. As far as I know, they're a tribe forced into gladiator combat... not night-time thieves. Point is, go ahead and use your imagination, but don't do things that are obviously against or threaten to be against current/future rules. That fortress combat thing posted recently is a good example of something against RP.
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I have read every single post in this thread and I must say that in my point of view all this OOC versus IC war (kinda) is thriving because of the fact that the implemented rules in the game aren't especially restricted to one or another's favor. Now, to solve this dilemma once and for all there is only one solution: Force all game-play (observe the "-play", chat should - and could never be anything else than - still be divided in both IC and OOC in my opinion) to be IC code-wise. As new OOC-related issues arise, solve them in favor for IC. I would definitely not disagree, since there already are plenty of IC+OOC-MMORPG:s, and a tough IC-biased one would be a fresh alternative for those who either wants to dedicate their computer-game-based spare-time playing a fictious role and for those who wants to do it for some time and playing WoW for example for the rest of the time.
As it is now, I still like the concept, but I only want to say that I personally miss an IC-dedicated MMORPG with advanced functions to let an alternative universe come to life. After all, this is an opportunity for a few to create/experience a world totally different to the real world. A saga. A neverending story. He has the tool. He has the power. We can only leave this decision to Laanx. Obey and He might listen.
Besides, the RP in MMORPG is something at least I do respect. A game is a game and a computer game can take the (former) board games a step further by forcing the players to obey the rules, thus making it even easier for the player to be a part of the community and to enjoy finding the possibilities in the restrictions. That's what it is all about. You can bring the simplest thing to life by pure imagination. Aren't we already stuffed with enough diversity IRL? Do we all need to be interested in politics (that is, unresolved issues) to get the most out of a computer game?
And here's some RP-favored suggestions from me:
* No quests. More events. Prevents massive cheating and makes it possible to implement further rules to make it even harder to cheat. Make it clear for everyone how hard an event is to solve and when it is over the solution should be official and bring something to the Planeshift history. "Boring", you might say, and "This will not appear frequently enough", but I say it is something that we have to live with for a deeper RP:ing experience. And, who knows, creating new events may be something mighty popular? A game in the game so to speak, with rewards (trias, xp, items etc) for the players who creates them?
* Weapons should still be allowed in towns but a warning box appears every time a player gets near the gates allowing the player to accept the possibility to become outlawed by some intricate game mechanics (I don't care to give any thought about) or to obey the rule and press an accept button that forces his weapons to become unwieldable while in town. Not realistic? -This rule actually increases the realism in-game by forcing the user to think about the act before running around waving his axes in the air at the plaza. As I mentioned before, I think a good game forces the user to obey certain laws, as in any board game, or at least face the consequences.
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No quests. More events. Prevents massive cheating and makes it possible to implement further rules to make it even harder to cheat.
Yes, remove the 300+ quests in game and dump all the development hours. Nobody will ever cheat after that, ever again.
A game is a game and a computer game can take the (former) board games a step further by forcing the players to obey the rules
I hated how nobody obeyed the rules in PlaneShift: The Board Game.
Weapons should still be allowed in towns but a warning box appears every time a player gets near the gates allowing the player to accept the possibility to become outlawed by some intricate game mechanics (I don't care to give any thought about) or to obey the rule and press an accept button that forces his weapons to become unwieldable while in town.
Or we could use simple game mechanics, and just dequip weapons automatically in towns.
A saga. A neverending story. He has the tool. He has the power. We can only leave this decision to Laanx. Obey and He might listen.
Must... comment... no... no... leave... alone...
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Too many thoughts about rules and laws... hey, leave all that to the germans. And play instead.
Play being a bad guy who wields weapons whereever he likes.
Play being a smartass who constantly complains, and would look all day out of the window if he had a house.
Play a miner who is mentally retarded enough to be satisfied by his production line job.
There are such people in real life too. So play them. If you are satisfied by playing such characters.
But be fair, and play it so that you will take the consequences. So if you wield weapons everywhere, expect windowwatchers to complain about you.
__
P.S.: I am german.
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@Utm: Sure I know I'm stubborn and blind for other ways. But wasn't it pointed out when the new server went online that it's also a reaction to the RP/Non-RP problem because over the time it became obvious that it's not really possible to keep both on the same server without troubles. We have the Non-RP server for about seven month now, but this the situation on the RP server gets worse and worse. At least I can't see any efforts to enforce RP more on laanx.
No extra load for the GMs (/jail instead of /ban or whatever they use), no need to watch the Plaza 24/7, no visitors inside the jail, ever... I would even add a NPC in there, with no other purpose than to constantly lecture the naughty boys and girls, feed them, and lecture them some more (with some tutorial-like NPC chat).
Sending characters to some kind of tutorial again....hehe, I really like that idea.
Thanks for those rules Lhaa. That's how a RP server should be.
If we want to have an RP game RP must be enforced. Most new players will still take the easiest path and "encouraging" won't really work, even less if it's "encouraged" by material rewards; players will do anything to get the rewards and forget about RP once the event is done. From http://www.planeshift.it/index.html: Events are a good way to develop your character and to earn yourself rare and valuable rewards.
Yes, encouraging won't work. But at the moment I don't have the feeling RP is even encouraged.
Wipes won't fix anything and there is no point in discussing them. There'll be one whenever it has to be and soon after the same players who have them now will have the higher levels.
Okay, then no more talking about wipes at all and about solutions for the situation. I like most of what you suggest Lhaa. And sorry if I'm too "hippy". Everyone who knows me should know how I feel about the situation if I start a complain like this even if it isn't as harsh as some others would do it. And I'm really interested in a solution here, but most suggested here was already suggested in the past too...and either it didn't work or nobody had an interest in doing it.
For the guild creation problem here is an idea. We have the OSP which after the recent first round now has a combination of GMs and guild reps that will judge the second round of OSP applications. What if there was a OSP type committee for handing out licenses for new guilds. Basically if someone wants to do a new guild they would have to make a presentation to the OSP style committee and convince the committee that there is a need for the new proposed guild. If the guild applicant convinces the majority of the committee then the new guild is given permission to be formed.
That indeed sounds like a good idea. I'm just afraid it has to be some kind of OOC committee if all guilds needs to be approved by this. I don't think an IC committee would accept chaotic or unlawful guilds. But I don't really see a problem with this. Enforcing rules can't always be IC.
[i got tired after page 2.5
i especially like under the moon's cartoon... it's real good!.. stating exactly what this is about]
[in general about RP:
1) people can want to form guilds for RP reasons (gives them a home and friends)
2) people can fight in places they are not allowed by law for RP reasons (they wanna break the law)
3) people can make troubles in bars for RP reasons (they get drunk, or wanna break the law)
4) people can back up RP actions with game mechanics for even better RP (they are so called natural players, if you don't understand that: go on a chat box.. RPG is RPG after all]
1) If they want to do this they should go to the Non-RP server
2)Of course, but they shouldn't ignore the surroundings and settings. Starting a fight in Kada El's will soon get the attention of the guards outside. And no way that I can take it IC if someone even starts a fight right in front of a guard just ignoring it.
3)Of course, same answer as in 2)
4)Also no problem, game mechanics are fine. Nobody complained about players using them. Just not everything that is possible with game mechanics should be done on the RP server. Calling for help in guild chat is no RP, standing on the edge of the Dlayo pit just waiting for someone to enter and then kill him/her/kra is no RP. (okay, it can be in a few cases...but I doubt that is true for most of the incidents that happen there), Challenging someone in front of the guards and ignoring them is no RP.
[to Aiwendil:
two of the 3 player events you mentioned were IC... the 3rd is not that IC.. i admit, BUT who are you to judge em having not organised any event?]
[in general.. easier to point fingers at others than at oneself]
Perlan bows
Sorry, I can't agree there. All three events are not really RP for me. I don't say that a tournament can't be RP. But those three events didn't come up with any real reason for them beside the fun of fighting. And I won't comment the "having not organised any event".
Perlan sighs
[so we can use our imagination whenever, as long as it doesn't concern something that one would have maybe trained for?....
tournaments are bad, m'kay, fighting is bad, m'kay, you shouldn't do tournaments, m'kay]]
No idea how you got that idea. Tournaments are fine if they are done in a RP way on the RP server. If you just want to fight others because of the fun of it go to the non-rp server. This whole discussion isn't about training and PLing at all. Was never my intention to bring up that topic. It's about an RP server where most of the player have no clue what RP means. I don't want anyone to tell how to play the game, but we have two servers and don't make use of them. There isn't any problem with PLers who accept the settings and maybe just don't say much in main. The problem is about those people who ignore the settings but also can't stay silent and disturb others who still "think" that guards in PS are able to keep up the order.
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Too many thoughts about rules and laws... hey, leave all that to the germans. And play instead.
Play being a bad guy who wields weapons whereever he likes.
Play being a smartass who constantly complains, and would look all day out of the window if he had a house.
I beg to differ.... Those kinds of people are exactly why a lot people are playing immersive MMOs.... to get away from those kinds of people in RL. Why meet these kinds of people in game when you can just walk outside your door and find them? :thumbdown:
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This is just the consequence from the rule not to spoil the fun of other players, Illysia... ;)
Who are you to disallow them playing PS, only because you don't like their playing.
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- i think some miscommunication or perhaps misunderstanding is this: people can at a certain point play a role of a fighter in a championship [IRL festivities with people fighting were held many times just for the fun of watching fighters, plus of course the fighters wanting to win a prize and perhaps fame]
- i think some people need to widen their vision of what is RP and what isn't
- and why should people that want to form a guild go to ezpcusa? like i stated earlier.. they want a family and home (in the widest sense of the word home.. [i don't see how that isn't rp]
- about breaking the law, there are rules.. and i abide them (mostly), but i don't see the problem in people who don't, if they choose to be b@d@sses, let them [what's wrong with that kind of RP?]
- about ENFORCING RP.. it must be me.. but i think some ppl have weird ideas [i am not gonna say what i think, cuz i abide forum rules]
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"about ENFORCING RP"
- ever try and rp on yahoo chat ? You walk into a room called something like "The Dragon Slayers Den" lets say.... you get there and its just a group of zit nosed kids iterating about what music they listed to last night, what they ate, what their farts smell like, how many supermodels that sacked last night - and how lame they were .. etc... Not fun.
- ever rp fight with someone that constantly breaks the rules ( like being invincible, godmodding or using ooc means to pull in others ) - again , not fun.
- If good/correct rp is not enforced then everyone will start doing this .. not fun.
"about breaking the law"
- yes, break the law if you choose and do it well but keep it realistic.
- don't stomp on somone's face in front of the guards and then sit there and order a drink.. thats just not realistic. Not fun.
- don't put a knife to someone's neck in a crowded bar and expect to get out unharmed and unnoticed .. duh...
" and why should people that want to form a guild go to ezpcusa"
- who cares .. make an ez guild however - rp does not apply there
" i think some people need to widen their vision of what is RP and what isn't"
- I Agree .. if people would take a little time and read some tutorials - or humbly ask a more experienced player for guidance then some of these problems might lessen.
- Some people also need to narrow their idea of what rp is
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- i think some miscommunication or perhaps misunderstanding is this: people can at a certain point play a role of a fighter in a championship [IRL festivities with people fighting were held many times just for the fun of watching fighters, plus of course the fighters wanting to win a prize and perhaps fame]
- i think some people need to widen their vision of what is RP and what isn't
- and why should people that want to form a guild go to ezpcusa? like i stated earlier.. they want a family and home (in the widest sense of the word home.. [i don't see how that isn't rp]
- about breaking the law, there are rules.. and i abide them (mostly), but i don't see the problem in people who don't, if they choose to be b@d@sses, let them [what's wrong with that kind of RP?]
- about ENFORCING RP.. it must be me.. but i think some ppl have weird ideas [i am not gonna say what i think, cuz i abide forum rules]
I can't comment on the tournaments as I have never been to one. But as for widening out their vision of RP, some people need to understand that "lol is not good RP, if you don't belive me, try speaking in leet or chatspeak on a job interview or to some random person you don't know. That kind of stuff is only appropriate under certain circumstance and outside of brackets isn't one of them.
Also, running around with weapons without it being in the proper context (i.e fighting outside of the city) isn't good RP either as you have the guards telling you to obey the law and sheath your sword. It's like people running around breaking the law in RL, they aren't heros for defying authority and they aren't just harmless citizens.... they are usually dangerous or at least pains in the rear.
I'm sorry, but most of the people trying to be "b@d@sses" are not able to pull it off convincingly. It takes a certain amount of skill to pull it off convincingly and most people give up the idea of needing to be one by the time they get the experience necessary to do that. As for Enforcing RP, it would be nice as long as it isn't heavy handed. Some of the bad RPers and people who grind all day will eventually turn out to be decent RPers... I know, I was one. :sweatdrop:
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If good/correct rp is not enforced then everyone will start doing this .. not fun.
Many have already been doing it for years, with or without enforcement. Thats why this discussion keeps coming up, again and again.
who cares .. make an ez guild however - rp does not apply there
That doesn't mean anything goes. Rules still apply there. Check for moved posts in the guilds forum.
Who are you to disallow them playing PS, only because you don't like their playing.
The game is free for all to play. This was decided long ago by the team from the top down. That concept takes precedence over RP.
Or does it...?
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The game is free for all to play. This was decided long ago by the team from the top down. That concept takes precedence over RP.
Or does it...?
Free to play for all as long as they follow the rules and staying in character as much as possible is apart of that. It is and always will be an RP centric game. Otherwise they would have ditched a lot of things and just followed the development model of a lot of other free to play games.
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staying in character as much as possible
You said it, not I.
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The official rules may be light on that but yes, it is expected you spend most of the time in character. At least that is what the motd used to say.
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I remember when it was said we'd never have a second non-rp server.
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as much as possible
Who are you to disallow them playing PS, only because you don't like their playing.
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as much as possible
Who are you to disallow them playing PS, only because you don't like their playing.
Because it being an RP game was established by Talad and go figure... the people developing the game have some say in the way it is. :) This will always be a RP game. Anyone that doesn't like it has plenty of other options. ;)
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It being a game for everyone to play was established by those same people. Go figure. And they explicitly indicated staying in character as much as possible. They also seem to have a much more intelligent regard for the people who do play this game, no matter who they are. But I also think that the game needs to be finished, fair, and balanced because the vision encompasses both the RP and the game, and having anything else is going to drive away players. I fully believe that "the roleplayers" can ease off the rudeness and self-superiority, and that the "powerlevelers" can play in character without being rude. But I do not believe substituting community for good game mechanics will ever but dent the issues being discussed here. You might have have the staying power, Illysia, to keep up an ongoing scenario like the Stone Head, but most of the rest of the players do not. And most of the people who have played this game have wanted a combination of both progression and roleplay. I also believe that if new players who go OOC are treated rudely, that they will NOT go away OR modify their behavior. A lot has improved on these forums and in game, but slapping people with one's sense of self-superiority is not the way to go about improving the community.
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Illysia - you missed an important piece of my text (possibly because I edited it a few times...):
"Play such characters ... if this satisfies you".
I hoped this would give a hook to think about. But probably noone even noticed.
It stays this way: The game is meant to be played for fun by everyone. Roleplaying is encouraged ... but not enforced.
Of course it wouldn't harm anyone on the platinum hill do go to the Stonehead tavern once in a while and sigh audibly "Oh boy, I need a beer now". They don't need to fear that the platinum is gone when they return from the tavern. But you are not allowed to beat this point of view into their minds with a bat. It is an offer that may be taken or rejected.
All you can do with those you fail to convince, is to ignore them. They decided that their hard gained skills and money is worth being "associal" (in the most neutral possible meaning). But they got a warranty of their own right to enjoy this game in their meaning of joy.
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It being a game for everyone to play was established by those same people. Go figure. And they explicitly indicated staying in character as much as possible. They also seem to have a much more intelligent regard for the people who do play this game, no matter who they are. But I also think that the game needs to be finished, fair, and balanced because the vision encompasses both the RP and the game, and having anything else is going to drive away players. I fully believe that "the roleplayers" can ease off the rudeness and self-superiority, and that the "powerlevelers" can play in character without being rude. But I do not believe substituting community for good game mechanics will ever but dent the issues being discussed here. You might have have the staying power, Illysia, to keep up an ongoing scenario like the Stone Head, but most of the rest of the players do not. And most of the people who have played this game have wanted a combination of both progression and roleplay. I also believe that if new players who go OOC are treated rudely, that they will NOT go away OR modify their behavior. A lot has improved on these forums and in game, but slapping people with one's sense of self-superiority is not the way to go about improving the community.
Coming off as thinking you are "better than thou" is partially a perspective issue as your post above could be seen as the same thing. ;) But the problem is that I have tried treating people like that very well and I still get mixed results. However, for a fact, the people who have "lol" after every statement are usually never heard from again or cause a certain amount of trouble... I've seen it time and time again... This is not a given however. The problem is not who is new to the game, but who is willing to learn and with more free to play games out there that is a shrinking number.
Many want to turn PS into one of those kinds of games where people are knocking each other around in the streets indiscriminately instead of excepting PS's uniqueness. If I tried to RP in another game and people said "no, take that to another game", I could live with that I can go to a game where it is acceptable or find a way to isolate my RP from the public (groups or what have you). People should be able to do the same with dueling and the like. There are plenty of empty places and places where it is acceptable to duel... just don't do it in the city. There are also games where there are no RP restrictions if it is too much to go to the arena or outside of the city.
Often PLers don't take into account that they can play numerous games and have fun just fine. RP is hard to find anyway and finding a place that suits your RP style is even harder. Yes, everyone should be able to play the way they like but be a little considerate. RP is not as easily transferable to other games as grinding and PLing are. I know, I've tried. ;)
Illysia - you missed an important piece of my text (possibly because I edited it a few times...):
"Play such characters ... if this satisfies you".
I hoped this would give a hook to think about. But probably noone even noticed.
It stays this way: The game is meant to be played for fun by everyone. Roleplaying is encouraged ... but not enforced.
Of course it wouldn't harm anyone on the platinum hill do go to the Stonehead tavern once in a while and sigh audibly "Oh boy, I need a beer now". They don't need to fear that the platinum is gone when they return from the tavern. But you are not allowed to beat this point of view into their minds with a bat. It is an offer that may be taken or rejected.
All you can do with those you fail to convince, is to ignore them. They decided that their hard gained skills and money is worth being "associal" (in the most neutral possible meaning). But they got a warranty of their own right to enjoy this game in their meaning of joy.
;D Funny LigH. Yes, no bat, but I do find it funny that many don't see the need at all to meet RPers half way and say hello at least when spoken too. I can live with them staying at the mine all day, but please.... when you come into the tavern and there are people there, acknowledge their presence..... :p And to the people training cooking there... don't litter my tavern please, do clean up after yourself. :sweatdrop:
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I fully believe that "the roleplayers" can ease off the rudeness and self-superiority, and that the "powerlevelers" can play in character without being rude.
I also believe that.
I often feel that there is a confusion between RP and IC in these debates.
Calling myself a RPer, all I ask from others is to not ruin my immersion. This is possibly why I favor casual RPs, not planned (/tell-ed) ones. And I find the game achieving that pretty well, keeping in mind that it is always improvable but not perfectible.
As to judge if things are in-settings or not, it's not our place to do so, out of the obvious vampire or dragon cases. Out of the many reasons for that, I'd just pick the fact that in the current, under construction, limited shape of the environment, imagination is a must, if only to fill in what makes sense. As an example, I'd raise an interrogative brow to anyone telling me that I play my glassblower out of setting. Of course I do. I'll stop making up excuses for not crafting when the industry will be there. In the mean time, I make up, keeping the immersion, instead of being OOC with a /tell [but the skill is not implemented yet].
Bad behaviour is not (directly) about RP. It's about players, game balance, fairness, etc. And actually, in the recent posts, It feels like it is not about RP vs PL anymore; it sounds more like about good RP vs bad RP. Seems to me that there is a contingent of new RP enthusiasts somewhere, only a bit rough and loud. Show them something more polished (one by one, most likely), and you may all get fun in the end.
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it sounds more like about good RP vs bad RP. Seems to me that there is a contingent of new RP enthusiasts somewhere, only a bit rough and loud. Show them something more polished (one by one, most likely), and you may all get fun in the end.
This is basically true, but it goes back to my point about willingness to learn. Unfortunately, many want the more established community to adjust around them instead of learning how the community RPs and then finding a less disruptive way of working their ideas for RP in. I am going to be perfectly frank, if you are a well known well loved RPer, you can skirt a some aspects of settings in your RPs... Lolitra and Duraza come to mind. However, you have to establish yourself as an RPer with a decent amount experience and skills before it will be accepted. That is why I am working to integrate new people people into the community. Once they get in and get their bearing, there should be no problem. I let everyone into the tavern and I am ready to help with the adjustment problem....
To all the people out there who feel they are harassed by people not accepting their RP: If you don't know where your RP is causing trouble, ask me... I will help you work it out! :)
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The game is meant to be played for fun by everyone. Roleplaying is encouraged ... but not enforced.
It is an offer that may be taken or rejected.
All you can do with those you fail to convince, is to ignore them.
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;D Funny LigH. Yes, no bat, but I do find it funny that many don't see the need at all to meet RPers half way and say hello at least when spoken too. I can live with them staying at the mine all day, but please.... when you come into the tavern and there are people there, acknowledge their presence..... :p And to the people training cooking there... don't litter my tavern please, do clean up after yourself. :sweatdrop:
Well ... that's a matter of parental education. Like in real life, like in game - a minimum level of civility can hardly be guaranteed for each player. But it surely helps enjoying PlaneShift.
(German) "Was du nicht willst, was man dir tu, das füg auch keinem andern zu" ~ Don't treat others like you wouldn't want to be treated yourself. I don't like to imagine that modern families might not even be able to teach that basic kind of behaviour.
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This is basically true, but it goes back to my point about willingness to learn. Unfortunately, many want the more established community to adjust around them instead of learning how the community RPs and then finding a less disruptive way of working their ideas for RP in. I am going to be perfectly frank, if you are a well known well loved RPer, you can skirt a some aspects of settings in your RPs...[...]
My experience is different enough to lead me to a different point of view as well. I'll skip the full background details (too long a list of differences), but let's just say I'm not part of the "established" community, yet I live happily within the PS community as an established RPing random encounter. When I meet a RPer, either our game goes smoothly, or our styles are too different and we make it short and say goodbye. With an apparently new player, I keep IC in all circumstances, and I often see, on his part, less and less OOC lines in return. I don't teach anything, I just happen to show something different, which I believe is more enjoyable. I won't teach anything if I'm not asked to do so. I don't consider a priori that people don't know how to RP, or don't want to, only that newcomers need to adjust to PS itself, just as we all do all the time. In the end, how I act is not different than with confident RPers. Then they meet you and see some more, then someone else... People who RP, people who don't, they can see it all and play the way they like.
That's for the RP vs OOC part. Game disruption, that's for the GMs entirely. I was addressed by a GM once, for disruption, while I was RPing and perfectly IC; just an example to show how different the two matters are.
Maybe there is some feeling of superiority in some RPers, and not just a reading impression. But the fact is, there are no elites, only people who won't meet.
Btw, is littering your tavern a disruptive behaviour, or a possibly bad RP ? Maybe what you need is a way to enclose the place and keep people at hand to lecture them ? ;D
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LMAO! Guys you are funny! You are having this discussion for the 1000th time in the history of PS. I thought after so long time somebody would realize that all this debate has achieved, achieves and will achieve is increasing number of pages and post count (and a monstrous amount of stuff to read ::|. I must confess I didn't read every single post in this thread. Or the forums.) Six pages in four days. Why was I even suprised to see this "development"?
The actual purpose of this post is this: http://www.geezmagazine.org/issue06/find-the-eyes-to-see . Related to the picture Utm posted. Might be worth a read. Me personally will check now.
Have fun.
Vanitas vanitatum et omnia vanitas. (which is taken from "Asterix. The Gladiator" if you are curious)
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LigH: You'd be surprised. :whistling:
Khoridor: You may not see a where RP doesn't fit but RP is not a golden standard. From my observations, the way RP is handled in PS would not work for most other RP in other games. You do have to learn the ropes for RP in PS in particular. And if you are addressed for disruption by a GM then that means that your RP was inappropriate in some way. There is more to good RP than staying in character. If a GM asked you to stop believe there was a good reason as GM will sit an observe before they actually act. You play a character and you are RPing, doesn't mean you are doing it well. Good RP means it is enjoyable for more than yourself. However, it is in fact subjective to who you are around to a certain extent so, that is where there are certain standards. Like: no smilies outside of brackets, no stealing without asking, no PvP in the city. Nevertheless, we do have to tolerate each other, meaning tolerating the more strict RPers as well. :p , to form a somewhat cohesive community. No MMO can survive without a decent community. :)
And the littering is thoughtlessness... like some people's RPs. :P
Morla: If you have never engaged in a stalemate debate before, you simply have not found the thing closest to your heart to make you do it. :p You may not care about this argument but one will come which will make you do the same as we are even though you know it won't go anywhere. ;D
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Morla: If you have never engaged in a stalemate debate before, you simply have not found the thing closest to your heart to make you do it. :p You may not care about this argument but one will come which will make you do the same as we are even though you know it won't go anywhere. ;D
Nuo, nuo, I have taken part in a few of those. So even if it leads nowhere, we should continue to talk? Whyy? Enlighten the ignorant pls!
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And if you are addressed for disruption by a GM then that means that your RP was inappropriate in some way.
As I briefly mentioned, it wasn't. The point of that precise example is that before being a RP game, it's a MMO game; I do not therefore argue with a GM. If I have to use an OOC tool to avoid being disruptive, I'll do it. Anyway, I do not wish to emphasize 5 minutes of fairly needed OOCness in decades of flawless Khoridorness. :P
Nevertheless, we do have to tolerate each other, meaning tolerating the more strict RPers as well. :p , [...]
Indeed we do. Tolerate, and if possible enjoy. I do have good time with some very OOC-prone characters, personally; it's even hard not to get contaminated sometimes.
So we all play the way we want, and we don't disrupt each other's game. That's good enough a common ground for me. Who to play or not to play with... well, that's more a question of opportunities, really.
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- i think some miscommunication or perhaps misunderstanding is this: people can at a certain point play a role of a fighter in a championship [IRL festivities with people fighting were held many times just for the fun of watching fighters, plus of course the fighters wanting to win a prize and perhaps fame]
Sure, nobody denies this. But coming up with always more spectacular tournaments and places for such occasions isn't appropriate when you want to do an IC tournaments. The winch is meant to be a place where the wares of the other levels come in. Doing a tournament there just for the thrill of not falling down is not really something I can consider good roleplay. And I also don't see how killing as much as possible NPCs in a given time can be seen as Roleplay. Oh...and a attack on the Eagle Bronze doors fortress...mmh..sure, and I guess the characters who do the attack live with the consequences afterward too. I doubt the Octarchy would be very happy about this or that the guards based in the fortress would just ignore this.
- and why should people that want to form a guild go to ezpcusa? like i stated earlier.. they want a family and home (in the widest sense of the word home.. [i don't see how that isn't rp]
Okay, sorry, was not very clear on that. If someone wants to make a guild just for the sake to stay in touch with his player friends he/she should go to ezpcusa. I'm not the one who complains about players using the guild mechanics to create families or organizations with a RP background.
- about breaking the law, there are rules.. and i abide them (mostly), but i don't see the problem in people who don't, if they choose to be b@d@sses, let them [what's wrong with that kind of RP?]
Nothing wrong if they accept consequences. I just don't see that most characters who show such behavior accept those. They continue killing characters in towns, ignore guards at all and don't give anyone the chance to react to their doings.
- about ENFORCING RP.. it must be me.. but i think some ppl have weird ideas [i am not gonna say what i think, cuz i abide forum rules]
As far as I know laanx is even in the login screen called a RP server. So asking for rules to enforce RP there shouldn't be too surprising. People who don't want to follow those rules have an alternative in ezpcusa.
- Some people also need to narrow their idea of what rp is
Thanks Rigwyn, to me it seems a lot of people call everything they RP just because they play a RPG.
I fully believe that "the roleplayers" can ease off the rudeness and self-superiority, and that the "powerlevelers" can play in character without being rude.
No sorry, I don't believe this. And you already said so too in a way:
Many have already been doing it for years, with or without enforcement. Thats why this discussion keeps coming up, again and again.
Yes, this or a similar discussion comes up every few month. But there is a difference in my view now. We have two servers and the possibility to separate the players now. So what's wrong with one server where RP is enforced and another without such rules. One server would be like laanx is now for the Non-Rpers and the other could offer RPers the safe place without disruption. So if we want to avoid the same discussion over and over again the only reason I see is to keeps the player apart from each other. Right now we have a server that by no means can be called a RP server and another server that isn't used at all. Is that the situation we all want?
I fully believe that "the roleplayers" can ease off the rudeness and self-superiority, and that the "powerlevelers" can play in character without being rude.
This isn't really about rudeness or self-superiority. It's just about the fact that it isn't possible for both parties to have fun with each other. There is no right way to play PlaneShift. It has been said often enough now...Everyone should have fun, so I only ask for a solution how this is possible.
Bad behaviour is not (directly) about RP. It's about players, game balance, fairness, etc. And actually, in the recent posts, It feels like it is not about RP vs PL anymore; it sounds more like about good RP vs bad RP. Seems to me that there is a contingent of new RP enthusiasts somewhere, only a bit rough and loud. Show them something more polished (one by one, most likely), and you may all get fun in the end.
Yes it is and I never intended to make it a RP vs PLer debate. But how to help players "improve" their RP if they try to mug or kill you right in front of a guard ignoring all IC references of you to that guard?. Using polite OOC tells I have give up already some time ago as the only answers I got was "screw it, nobody cares about that".
LMAO! Guys you are funny! You are having this discussion for the 1000th time in the history of PS. I thought after so long time somebody would realize that all this debate has achieved, achieves and will achieve is increasing number of pages and post count (and a monstrous amount of stuff to read ::|. I must confess I didn't read every single post in this thread. Or the forums.) Six pages in four days. Why was I even suprised to see this "development"?
Nuo, nuo, I have taken part in a few of those. So even if it leads nowhere, we should continue to talk? Whyy? Enlighten the ignorant pls!
Sure Morla, I think my thread title already indicates that I'm fully aware that this isn't discussed for the first time and that it won't lead to any solution. But I also see no reason to stay silent about this. Is it a good solution to just not talk about problems and ignore that they even exist. And there is always the chance that someone reads this thread and then starts to adjust his/her behavior...be it to the one side or the other.
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Many have already been doing it for years, with or without enforcement. Thats why this discussion keeps coming up, again and again.
Yes, this or a similar discussion comes up every few month. But there is a difference in my view now. We have two servers and the possibility to separate the players now. So what's wrong with one server where RP is enforced and another without such rules. One server would be like laanx is now for the Non-Rpers and the other could offer RPers the safe place without disruption. So if we want to avoid the same discussion over and over again the only reason I see is to keeps the player apart from each other. Right now we have a server that by no means can be called a RP server and another server that isn't used at all. Is that the situation we all want?
I also think the discussion is now a different just because what Aiwendil said. We do not speak about planeshift itself like before, we speak about the RP-server of planeshift.
And inside this RP-server it is about:
Nevertheless, we do have to tolerate each other, meaning tolerating the more strict RPers as well.
This thread is imho only (!) about people who do not care at all about others and who are not even willing to think about it or change. And that something should be done about that.
(I also said before we should try to give examples of what we[tm] think is better, but this is, if I understand Aiwendil right, not the topic of this thread. How to react on disruptive OOC behaviour in general should be discussed in a different thread. I hope I got it right this time ;) )
Sen
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Polarizing this thread into "enforcing RP" vs being "tolerant" to all ways of playing the game isn't really fair.
The RP'ers have pointed out that there is a fundamental problem for RP on the "tolerant" side: when faced with blatant OOC circumvention of settings or disruptive OOC-driven play, there is only a choice of lesser evils, all of which blow one's own RP.
- Engaging the out-of-settings play in an IC-manner will actually validate it as RP.
- Ignoring it will work for some kind of out-of-settings descriptions and such, but not for disruptive OOC-driven play (example: bystanders are killed in front of you in the plaza). It will actually be very OOC for the RPer in the latter case.
This situation is completely skewed one-sidedly against the RP'er!
Note that addressing the problem OOC is a valiant attempt to get at the source of the problem, which will work in the case of a player who is just casually disruptive or against settings or a new player discovering his style of play. However, in a lot of cases (and these are the cases described here), it will not help since the player is committed to his play. In any case, this is a break in the flow of RP and an IC solution will have to be found anyway unless the disrupting player backs off from his play completely.
I think it's not very constructive to put forward as only solution to this problem of "what can *we* do about it?" that "*you* just need to learn to cope with it". That may or may not be the case, but it doesn't answer the question (or rather, gives "nothing can be done" as an answer).
The "tolerant" approach is not to try to blend all styles of play into one, but to try to identify different needs and address them as such.
The "enforcing" approach should not create out-of-game or in-game processes, institutions or committees which will not be able to work transparently and consistently over time or have a punishing nature. (one-time wipes - not that they might not be a good idea for other reasons - or guild-approval committees fall in this category)
Useful questions (while understanding that the game is far from complete yet) are:
1. How do existing mechanics or game aspects fail to protect and foster "deep RP"?
2. What does the game or settings lack for players that seek more excitement that could be there at this point of development?
The first question probably has been discussed a lot already. For me particularly, these things stand out:
- character progression is practically impossible to achieve ICly unless you play a gladiator-miner ;D
- quests are a great way to get introduced to the settings gradually, but there are not enough of them that are linked to the settings rather than being of a personal nature, and many quests are very OOC to complete for various characters, but still necessary to gain some item or glyph (or winch access?)
- there is no kind of in-game bulletin or message board or rumor system other than leaving books in various places
- the faction system is of no consequence
The second question I don't see discussed much:
- Yliakum apparently doesn't hold a lot of conflict. The races get along well, the government is stable, and luckily there's no black-and-white good vs evil struggle going on. But for the newcomer, this set-up is extremely hard to position oneself in. It feels almost placid. Now I understand that there are intrigues, corruption on various levels, and other realms with beings looking to get into Yliakum all waiting to be discovered or unleashed on the players, but all this seems pretty fictional to the players (who can merely read about it in various books).
- Apparently, we need some dramatic windswept mountain ledge that served as a long-standing duelling or tournament spot... ;)
- There are few places in the game that hold danger, and those that do don't lead to anywhere (...apparently...). Of course this is largely limited by NPC AI, too. But it's not like these places encourage players to group up for an expedition (unless RP'ed).
To sum it up... (not meaning to criticize the devs here, but to point out what could need more attention)
- there's too little to do in-settings for people who seek some excitement, which is why they bring it to others (possibly disruptively)
- there's too few means for people who try to progress their characters' ICly
- and the mechanics don't bring these two aspects together enough
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I doubt that the roleplayers will become more tolerant because of this discussion. I also doubt that PLers will try to stick closer to the settings because of this discussion. The only thing that might change something is intervention from above!
*Orgonwukh looks at the crystal sky and wonders about what is going to happen*
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First of all, let me quote the definition of Planeshift from Planeshift.it (http://www.planeshift.it/about.html). Not the one I gave it, the one the PS team gave to it:
PlaneShift is a Role Playing Game immersed into a 3D virtual fantasy world which is FULLY FREE to play.
- about ENFORCING RP.. it must be me.. but i think some ppl have weird ideas
Read above. ;)
Too many thoughts about rules and laws...
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But be fair, and play it so that you will take the consequences.
You have provided the answer yourself. No rules, but you want people to be fair.
Why'd you ever expect everybody to play fair when there are no rules at all to follow?
Take this to a RL situation then. Would every sportsman play fair without a referee? Have you pondered how'd Germany (just 'cause it's where you live) be without a police? Without jails? Rules are there because some people isn't able to behave without them and that won't change, not IRL, not IG.
Some will play fair, some won't. Some will roleplay, some won't.
Expecting everybody to do it without enforcement is as naive as expecting everybody to pay the taxes gladly "because it's good for our country".
This simply won't happen. Politicians found this out thousands of years ago.
For the guild creation problem here is an idea. We have the OSP which after the recent first round now has a combination of GMs and guild reps that will judge the second round of OSP applications. What if there was a OSP type committee for handing out licenses for new guilds. Basically if someone wants to do a new guild they would have to make a presentation to the OSP style committee and convince the committee that there is a need for the new proposed guild. If the guild applicant convinces the majority of the committee then the new guild is given permission to be formed.
That indeed sounds like a good idea. I'm just afraid it has to be some kind of OOC committee if all guilds needs to be approved by this. I don't think an IC committee would accept chaotic or unlawful guilds. But I don't really see a problem with this. Enforcing rules can't always be IC.
I can't agree with this. For the same reasons above. Make an IC committe with players (be them the OSP winners, be them the GMs, be them whoever) and you'll find another, much larger, amount of players complaining about favoritism and about those players being given the power to decide. Not saying I wouldn't like this, I'm sure I'd be happier about their decisions than the average PS player, simply don't think it'd work without causing a lot of trouble.
So, I stress, make rules. Define what is acceptable and what not, and have the people creating guilds abide to such. You can still have your IC council, which would work decisions -from- these very clear rules. Way to avoid conflict.
The game is free for all to play. This was decided long ago by the team from the top down. That concept takes precedence over RP.
I must have got something wrong, can't see the relation within money and roleplay.
If you can explain this, please enlighten me.
I remember when it was said we'd never have a second non-rp server.
The whole idea of an non-RP server for an RP game (read the 2nd line in my post ;) is already somewhat hilarious. But what's worse is that server isn't even used at all. Not by non-RPers, not by RPers, not even for testing... or at least this is how it does look like seeing that the NPC client keeps lagging Laanx out once and again.
And most of the people who have played this game have wanted a combination of both progression and roleplay.
Progression should be part of the roleplay. You are the one making splits.
I fully believe that "the roleplayers" can ease off the rudeness and self-superiority, and that the "powerlevelers" can play in character without being rude.
I'm amused at the fact some players in an RP game are not roleplayers and are not called such without any modesty.
When you play a shooter you don't try to RP, you shoot people; when you play a puzzles game you don't shoot people, you try to solve the puzzles; when you play chess you don't try to solve puzzles, you look for the best strategy to kill the king; when you play frisbee you don't look for the best strategy to kill a king, simply grab and shoot the freakin' thing.
The fact that some people won't RP in an RP game is simply funny.
I'd raise an interrogative brow to anyone telling me that I play my glassblower out of setting.
Playing non implemented skills is not off-setting. Playing laser sabres is.
Mechanics are not yet developed to allow glassblowing, no way it means there are no glassblowers in Yliakum.
All you can do with those you fail to convince, is to ignore them.
Ignoring players shouldn't be the ultimate solution to disrupting behaviors, an end should be put to them.
Morla: If you have never engaged in a stalemate debate before, you simply have not found the thing closest to your heart to make you do it. :p You may not care about this argument but one will come which will make you do the same as we are even though you know it won't go anywhere. ;D
Nuo, nuo, I have taken part in a few of those. So even if it leads nowhere, we should continue to talk? Whyy? Enlighten the ignorant pls!
I disagree. It does lead somewhere.
I've seen GM guards patrolling the streets of Hydlaa thrice in te last three days.
Right now we have a server that by no means can be called a RP server and another server that isn't used at all. Is that the situation we all want?
Apparently, yes.
I doubt that the roleplayers will become more tolerant because of this discussion. I also doubt that PLers will try to stick closer to the settings because of this discussion. The only thing that might change something is intervention from above!
*Orgonwukh looks at the crystal sky and wonders about what is going to happen*
In a way, this is already happening.
/me runs off now, fearing Orgonwukh may have unleashed the wrath of the Gods...
Edit: Fixed a couple of typos
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The whole idea of an non-RP server for an RP game (read the 2nd line in my post Wink is already somewhat hilarious. But what's worse is that server isn't even used at all. Not by non-RPers, not by RPers, not even for testing... or at least this is how it does look like seeing that the NPC client keeps lagging Laanx out once and again.
Lhaa, I've been here since 2003/2004. I know. I think if would be a simple matter that if you keep breaking rules on Laanx, you get kicked to EZ.
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No sorry, I don't believe this. And you already said so too in a way:
I simply said that I believe that people can get along, not that I believe that they do. I believe this about the Middle East as well.
Right now we have a server that by no means can be called a RP server and another server that isn't used at all. Is that the situation we all want?
I don't believe that is what anyone wants. But it is what we have. The question is why is there so little RP on Laanx, and why do those other players not want to go to EZ-PC? Saying the other server isn't used at all is not precise, it is and has been being used.
So asking for rules to enforce RP there shouldn't be too surprising. People who don't want to follow those rules have an alternative in ezpcusa.
Since RP is not disallowed on the second server, and since "nobody is over there", then why hasn't any RP simply moved over to the second server? I think that the reasons this has not happened, are the same reasons that most others are not going over there.
This isn't really about rudeness or self-superiority. It's just about the fact that it isn't possible for both parties to have fun with each other. There is no right way to play PlaneShift. It has been said often enough now...Everyone should have fun, so I only ask for a solution how this is possible.
Yes, it is. The rudeness and self-superiority are the reason both parties cannot have fun with each other. But you are asking for some kind of final solution that does not exist, or cannot be implemented. If it did, the developers would have implemented it or would have made a serious proposal for a feature that would allow for it. But it leads to a very gray and tricky area, and these people are making a game, not coding a system to judge people and then mete out punishment to those that don't agree with them.
This situation is completely skewed one-sidedly against the RP'er!
The situation is skewed against the RP'er. But that is because of human nature, not because of the game system. And the game system isn't going to be able to solve it. That is why ignoring it is the only way. In the past I played on private servers running NWN that were completely immersive and RP-oriented. People who disrupted or refused to play in character were simply banned. PlaneShift does not want to do this because it does not fit with the egalitarian ideals that the project is based on.
character progression is practically impossible to achieve ICly unless you play a gladiator-miner ;D
Due to the game not being finished. This is why I am in favor of finishing the development on the game before attempting to create systems that enforce or punish behavior. We do not know how the game will play when it is finished.
quests are a great way to get introduced to the settings gradually, but there are not enough of them that are linked to the settings rather than being of a personal nature, and many quests are very OOC to complete for various characters, but still necessary to gain some item or glyph (or winch access?)
the faction system is of no consequence
I think that the development of the Government Way and the Rogues Way for Winch access is a IC development-oriented use of the quest and faction system.
there is no kind of in-game bulletin or message board or rumor system other than leaving books in various places
A couple of years ago, books didn't exist.
The "enforcing" approach should not create out-of-game or in-game processes, institutions or committees which will not be able to work transparently and consistently over time or have a punishing nature. (one-time wipes - not that they might not be a good idea for other reasons - or guild-approval committees fall in this category)
I agree. I also think that any attempts to do this will embolden the griefers. Due also to the prevalence of "your RP isn't RP, only my RP is RP" many who did RP fine within the game have left and will leave.
Nuo, nuo, I have taken part in a few of those. So even if it leads nowhere, we should continue to talk? Whyy? Enlighten the ignorant pls!
If the discussion is not continued, then nobody will learn anything. Development proceeds from dialog and discussion.
I must have got something wrong, can't see the relation within money and roleplay. If you can explain this, please enlighten me.
If the developers wanted to exclude anyone who did not roleplay. They would have stated this explicitly. Perhaps you can explain why people who do not play in character are not simply banned outright the first time they say "lol"?
Ignoring players shouldn't be the ultimate solution to disrupting behaviors, an end should be put to them.
It would appear that Talad and the team don't appear to agree with that treatment, otherwise we would not have the situation as it is.
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@ Lhaa:
You have a talent of cutting out parts of sentences that don't belong together at all... criminal. ;)
With a bit of good will, you could interpret it this way: Don't try to make new and explicitly written game rules which are much more complicated than parental advises, generic etiquette, civility. The more complex a law is, the easier it can be misunderstood.
The more we argue about sentences, the less we argue about content. (^ next post by khoridor)
If you want to play an ass, expect to be kicked.
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Guys, could you please synthesise your opinions ?
If you keep arguing line for line, it will soon become unreadable... :whistling:
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My Opinion: People need to understand that PS has a very unique RP environment. They should try to fit in before trying to change or add to it. (basic rules of entering a new community). They should also understand that not everybody RPs for excitement. So while the RP might be in character it might become problematic as not everyone is getting something out of it.
I don't care for theft RPs at all, but I am willing to tolerate it a bit. However, with the amount of people who want to RP thieves because it is exciting, it can get overwhelming. In a regularly patrolled city, you should be able to walk around fairly safely. So getting robbed by each thief passing would be disruptive as it conflicts with the settings of that area. I understand that people are going to RP thieves where there are other people around but it doesn't fit in the middle of Hydlaa. At least not until mechanics can teleport you to the jail after a failed attempt.
For what it is worth, that is exactly what camp banished is for. Those kinds of characters. The reason it is away from the city base is because those kinds of characters would not be accepted in the city... i.e. thieves, murderers, con artists... what have you. Unless you can RP you character as decreetly being one of those things, having them in the city just doesn't fit.
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I found a perfect solution (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35511.msg407803#msg407803) for this issue... ;)
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Agreed.
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Of course. Why don't we all go and worry only about mechanics?
All those silly roleplayers are so annoying and all they do is complain... and they don't even add to the game's economy or anything, I never saw one at the mines!
Babbling and babbling all day, somebody should build them a chatbox and put them all in it, locked.
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This thread is imho only (!) about people who do not care at all about others and who are not even willing to think about it or change. And that something should be done about that.
Yes, I only woud change "...about people who do not care at all about others.." to "...about people who do not care at all about others or the settings..."
I don't believe that is what anyone wants. But it is what we have. The question is why is there so little RP on Laanx, and why do those other players not want to go to EZ-PC? Saying the other server isn't used at all is not precise, it is and has been being used.
This is not about too less RP on laanx! It's about disruptive "IC" behavior ignoring all settings and other players.
And for the why nobody went to ezpcusa:
One I did all the training I can stand to do years ago before I started RPing... I will not be going through that again.
I like to level some and RP some. I really like to be able to run from RP in area A to RP in area B without having to rest several times in between. I'm not willing to give up my levels to go to a new RP server.
Since RP is not disallowed on the second server, and since "nobody is over there", then why hasn't any RP simply moved over to the second server? I think that the reasons this has not happened, are the same reasons that most others are not going over there.
Please wipe ezpcusa and make it the RP server. Nearly nobody on laanx cares about roleplay at all anymore. So leave them their precious skills and give the Roleplayers a safe place again. And yes...it will take much longer for Roleplayers to gain some skills, but it's still better than the current situation on Laanx.
Yes, it is. The rudeness and self-superiority are the reason both parties cannot have fun with each other. But you are asking for some kind of final solution that does not exist, or cannot be implemented. If it did, the developers would have implemented it or would have made a serious proposal for a feature that would allow for it. But it leads to a very gray and tricky area, and these people are making a game, not coding a system to judge people and then mete out punishment to those that don't agree with them.
And what is wrong with separating the different players by applying more strict RP rules to one of the servers?
Due to the game not being finished. This is why I am in favor of finishing the development on the game before attempting to create systems that enforce or punish behavior. We do not know how the game will play when it is finished.
So you want to say there is no point in doing things like the RP Covenant (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34124.0) or setting up any rules for a server as long as it is not finished? Sorry, but I can't agree there. What about the naming policy? Also useless because the final game maybe checks all names at the start and rejects unwanted right from the start?
I found a perfect solution (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35511.msg407803#msg407803) for this issue... ;)
A solution? Oh, I see, yes, let us all ignore the problem and do something else...maybe the problem solves it's own alone.
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I know my post earlier was extreme in many ways, but I wanted to put some more fire in this interesting discussion (as if it is even needed haha). All I asked was for at least someone to read between the lines.
Yes, remove the 300+ quests in game and dump all the development hours. Nobody will ever cheat after that, ever again.
Did I actually mean that the quests should be erased? All of them? - No. I am weird but not a total madman and do fully understand the time and effort behind the quests and further how absurd to even think that they would repel them. A harmless way of putting some more wood in the fire in other words. And my hope that someone out there would think about what actually would happen if. A free thought straight out of my mind.
I hated how nobody obeyed the rules in PlaneShift: The Board Game.
PlaneShift: The Board Game? Yes! Bring out the popcorn and some cold beer! No. What I wanted was people to remember the time when roleplay was made with pen and paper and some different dices and even games like poker or whatever. How we enjoyed the simple game mechanics back then and never questioned the rules (or, at least my family didn't). The lack of unquestionable rules in a game can be frustrating and PlaneShift really needs to evolve regarding some forcing rules before we all quote to death in this forum. I admit I am a bit crazy since I do like rules. At least rules that makes it a bit harder for people to stomp on others.
Or we could use simple game mechanics, and just dequip weapons automatically in towns.
As it is now, it isn't especially RP with no consequenses whatsoever for the ones who deliberately chooses to wield their weapons in a guarded town full of others fully equipped with weapons and ready for any action. As in your "suggestion", it wouldn't be RP, since there must be room for less lawful characters. But I guess you lost your temper in this matter.
A saga. A neverending story. He has the tool. He has the power. We can only leave this decision to Laanx. Obey and He might listen.
Must... comment... no... no... leave... alone...
Lastly, I am quite disappointed you didn't comment on that last quote, mr Verden.
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Lastly, I am quite disappointed you didn't comment on that last quote, mr Verden.
I doubt if anyone else shares that sentiment, and those were really just meant to be tongue-in-cheek. I staying over here now...
http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35576.msg407871;topicseen#msg407871 (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35576.msg407871;topicseen#msg407871)
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OOC = Out Of Context. I hope the quotes and remarks will confuse you and make you angry. This whole thread is exploding with silliness so I'm flaming it with my newspaperguild.
At this point, GMs will usually do nothing to prevent blatantly low quality "RP" such as bazookas and pokemon fights (trust me, I've seen these on Laanx).
So you think you are better at RPing bazookas and pokemonfights?
Stop the complains about favoritism via rulesets, make decisions objective.
Who makes objective decisions in RL? The Freemasons? The police? Your local racist gang? Nobody. Favoritism is good RP.
You have to think twice before pressing the Post button.
Is that an IC rule or a OOC rule? How does it fit in with settings? How do you control if a player or person has done this? The statement is a fail.
It's guilds like the Warriors, Nexus, Wayward Kingdom, Prophets, Guardian merchants, etc. etc... that really degrade what roleplay is supposed to be.
No it's people like you that say that guilds like these degrade what RP is supposed to be when infact it's guilds like these that degrade you with RP as it's supposed to be.
we can use our imagination whenever, as long as it doesn't concern something that one would have maybe trained for
Who made you the boss?
Tournaments are fine if they are done in a RP way on the RP server. If you just want to fight others because of the fun of it go to the non-rp server.
People fight for fun in RL. Best fighters in RL are the ones NOT standing for 10minutes clenching their fists or making faces or rubbing their toes and talking long boring sentences.
Why meet these kinds of people in game when you can just walk outside your door and find them?
So... if I live in a neighborhood with only nice people I should press them to leave PS because I can just go outside for those kind of people?
OOC = Out Of Context. I hope the quotes and remarks will confuse you and make you angry. This whole thread is exploding with silliness so I'm flaming it with my newspaperguild.
At this point, GMs will usually do nothing to prevent blatantly low quality "RP" such as bazookas and pokemon fights (trust me, I've seen these on Laanx).
So you think you are better at RPing bazookas and pokemonfights?
Stop the complains about favoritism via rulesets, make decisions objective.
Who makes objective decisions in RL? The Freemasons? The police? Your local racist gang? Nobody. Favoritism is good RP.
You have to think twice before pressing the Post button.
Is that an IC rule or a OOC rule? How does it fit in with settings? How do you control if a player or person has done this? The statement is a fail.
It's guilds like the Warriors, Nexus, Wayward Kingdom, Prophets, Guardian merchants, etc. etc... that really degrade what roleplay is supposed to be.
No it's people like you that say that guilds like these degrade what RP is supposed to be when infact it's guilds like these that degrade you with RP as it's supposed to be.
we can use our imagination whenever, as long as it doesn't concern something that one would have maybe trained for
Who made you the boss?
Tournaments are fine if they are done in a RP way on the RP server. If you just want to fight others because of the fun of it go to the non-rp server.
People fight for fun in RL. Best fighters in RL are the ones NOT standing for 10minutes clenching their fists or making faces or rubbing their toes and talking long boring sentences.
Why meet these kinds of people in game when you can just walk outside your door and find them?
So... if I live in a neighborhood with only nice people I should press them to leave PS because I can just go outside for those kind of people?
Who cares? The thread is boring and could have been compressed into something debatable but it wasn't. My own points are pointless therefor I am victorious.
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Who cares? The thread is boring and could have been compressed into something debatable but it wasn't. My own points are pointless therefor I am victorious.
Fail....
You bothered to read it enough to make commentary. If it meant nothing to you, you just wasted a good chunk of time for nothing... :whistling:
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"They see me trollin, they hatein'"
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Who cares? The thread is boring and could have been compressed into something debatable but it wasn't. My own points are pointless therefor I am victorious.
Fail....
You bothered to read it enough to make commentary. If it meant nothing to you, you just wasted a good chunk of time for nothing... :whistling:
Exactly!
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You all killed roleplay, there you go, a constructive opinion ;)
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we have many players in PS whose mothertongue isn't english. for some of these people, including myself, is it very hard to roleplay in english. I wish the complainers could keep this in mind before judging us all. we try hard not to break the rp-rules of PS. but you cannot await that we start a firework of high professional rp-talk for you. that would only be possible in our own mothertongue.
on the other hand: I know how it was 2 years ago at the gold mine: highly entertaining, groovy and full of life - with many players of different cultures like today. what has happened to PS that now places like the platinum mine are as silent as burial grounds and as boring as tv-primetime-news? I don't wanna answer this question in detail because then you would have me there where you wanna have me with this thread: in your trollish PVP.
kids, world is grey, not black and white. and I'm lesser interested in what you are posting here than I'm interested in how you can bring your personality and some tolerance/coolness back on Laanx.
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I don't think this post is aimed at those who do not speak English natively, infact the OP Aiwendil doesnt speak English as a first language.
Most if not all of the roleplayers I know are very tolerant of those with less than perfect English, making allowances and helping those who make the attempt to RP instead of just being disruptive.
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we have many players in PS whose mothertongue isn't english. for some of these people, including myself, is it very hard to roleplay in english. I wish the complainers could keep this in mind before judging us all. we try hard not to break the rp-rules of PS. but you cannot await that we start a firework of high professional rp-talk for you. that would only be possible in our own mothertongue.
on the other hand: I know how it was 2 years ago at the gold mine: highly entertaining, groovy and full of life - with many players of different cultures like today. what has happened to PS that now places like the platinum mine are as silent as burial grounds and as boring as tv-primetime-news? I don't wanna answer this question in detail because then you would have me there where you wanna have me with this thread: in your trollish PVP.
kids, world is grey, not black and white. and I'm lesser interested in what you are posting here than I'm interested in how you can bring your personality and some tolerance/coolness back on Laanx.
Sorry but Mordraugion is right, this isn't about bad English, and while we are on the topic of what is being isn't being considered, keep in mind that some of the people with complaints are running player areas. That is more than a little bit of effort to bring personality to laanx.
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It's guilds like the Warriors, Nexus, Wayward Kingdom, Prophets, Guardian merchants, etc. etc... that really degrade what roleplay is supposed to be.
I disagree. The Warriors were founded by an RPer who went on to join Settings, and they have good RPers among them. Like Grizzlyus, who stays IC at the mines, but gives off some good humour.
I agree Nexus, PoC, and the Guardian merchants are bad RPers.
Is Phaat still in Wayward Kingdom? He was an excellent RPer.
Akaiddo's message of the day: Don't judge a book by its cover, or a guild by it's name.
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It seems the topic has drifted a bit from the original post which was basically a complaint about how so many players either do not roleplay at all - or who role play in such a way that they make themselves incompatible with other role players. I believe the bulk of the role playing flaws in question are:
A. Trying to control the role play ( god modding, not letting the other player choose the outcome of your actions )
B. Not keeping OOC info and IC info separate
C. Little to no awareness of the settings ( which is expected for new players )
D. Refusal to accept correction or to understand how one may not be adhering to these concepts.
"D" is the biggest problem IMHO as one who is willing to learn will eventually be corrected and learn.
I really don't think that fluency in English or one's ability to write using fancy wording and complex sentences are issues at all.
Lastly, It would be nice to see an in-game reference or something on the help menu with these points explained in very few words - maybe just a few sentences per point. This way when there is a dispute about whether or not one's actions are incorrect - one could simply refer to this text as an official source.
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Thanks Rigwyn. I for sure shouldn't complain about bad english. Everyone who played with me knows how bad my english and typing skills are. And I also don't want to argue which guild is a RP guild just because they have one or two players in them who RP at all. But my intention was also not to complain about players who do not RP at all. As long as they are not disruptive or keep messing around with others RPs I see no problem in those players. Sure, it's not nice if you try to talk to someone and don't get an answer at all. But that's nothing I get annoyed about.
I think the 4 points you made summarize it pretty well. Of course I know there will be always arguments what is godmodding and what not. But in case players don't do the mistake you mentioned as D it should be possible to deal with such problems in an OOC chat.
I can only agree that a ruleset for roleplaying on laanx would be a good idea. Something like the ruleset Lhaa posted here (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35576.msg407674#msg407674) would give players the chance to point out what others do wrong in their opinion without getting stupid replies. And it would give players the chance to try to deal with some problems for themselves before they have to get in contact with a GM to ask for moderation.
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Well there is always this little forgotten thing.... http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34508.msg396263#msg396263 (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34508.msg396263#msg396263) :whistling:
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Oh, I remember it Illysia. But I can't see anything about using OOC information in it. Or a explanation what is considered godmodding. Or something about respecting NPCs...an a lot more.
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Something to think about. See sea, Hear here, would wood etc.......Our characters hear and do not read. Just something I've thought about for a while. Sorry slightly :offtopic: but not really.
Bad english should be overlooked imo. As lonng as the generral message is gettings across. On purpose just to annoy might be a different matter though.
To be proactive in another way give this a shot http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=32697.0
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http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35576.msg407812#msg407812 (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35576.msg407812#msg407812)
http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35576.msg408516#msg408516 (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35576.msg408516#msg408516)
Oh, I should read the forum rules (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35709.0) more often. ;)
These will be promptly deleted, as well as any one-word posts or posts consisting of smilies only. Posting for the sole reason of increasing your rank is not allowed.
- Post comments in threads for the purpose of drawing attention to another thread on a different subject.
But to not violate
- “Bump” threads with no useful information or to keep them at the top of the list.
a few more words on rules for the laanx server. Right now we have these (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=31960.0). The only rules I see there covering aspects of RP are [GAME POLICY 01] IC and OOC (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=31960.msg367014#msg367014) and [GAME POLICY 02] Naming Policy (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=31960.msg367015#msg367015). All other rules only deal with OOC aspects like what is appropriate to say in main chat or how to format your character description. There isn't a single words in [GAME POLICY 10] Character Descriptions (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=31960.msg367024#msg367024) about not including the whole character background. And what does
Overbearing OOC information regarding RL issues or problems with other players or guilds.
mean? At least half of the description should be IC? A few lines of OOC information are fine to tell others to send you a tell if they are offended by your RP?
And the rules that cover RP aspects are very interesting too. From the IC/OOC rule (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=31960.msg367014#msg367014)
Read the setting for official information about the world your character belongs to – and while your character can certainly come from another “plane” outside of it, don’t do something outrageous like try to bring in “RP” guns. Keep with the medieval fantasy atmosphere as much as you can.
Didn't some people from the settings team try to tell us for some time that ALL characters currently in Planeshift are born in Ylikaum? But maybe I got something wrong there.... Oh and obviously it's not forbidden in that rule to use all OOC infos from the forums and planeshift page. Seems it's fine to play a character who knows about Vodul or already all guilds, their politics and members.
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Overbearing OOC information regarding RL issues or problems with other players or guilds.
[What does this] mean? At least half of the description should be IC? A few lines of OOC information are fine to tell others to send you a tell if they are offended by your RP?
Overbearing (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/overbearing) OOC information=when you use your character description window to make OOC entries about RL to the detriment of appropriate IC info, using it as some sort of blog rather than for the purpose it was intended. Like in the main channel, it is ok to make OOC entries but they should be limited to the minimum. Common sense should be common enough to avoid any extremes. Use the other guidelines in that post to make sure your description is ok. "A few lines of OOC information" related to your RP are, of course, acceptable.
And the rules that cover RP aspects are very interesting too. From the IC/OOC rule (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=31960.msg367014#msg367014)
Read the setting for official information about the world your character belongs to – and while your character can certainly come from another “plane” outside of it, don’t do something outrageous like try to bring in “RP” guns. Keep with the medieval fantasy atmosphere as much as you can.
Didn't some people from the settings team try to tell us for some time that ALL characters currently in Planeshift are born in Ylikaum? But maybe I got something wrong there.... Oh and obviously it's not forbidden in that rule to use all OOC infos from the forums and planeshift page. Seems it's fine to play a character who knows about Vodul or already all guilds, their politics and members.
Game policies are there to prevent OOC disruptive behavior. Bad RP is not punishable for the time being, hence the lack of reference to such behavior. Using information acquired through OOC channels as IC is regarded as bad RP and, as such, frowned upon. Earnest RPers should use their energy in trying to help those who still have a way to go in the RP area and are willing to learn.
RP may be enforced in Laanx in the future but there are still many things to consider before making any official rules. We have to consider that there's always a learning curve and that a RP server does not have to be a hostile one.
The IC/OOC rule has been updated to prevent any confusion now.