Usual, semi-annual complain

[verden]

The game is meant to be played for fun by everyone. Roleplaying is encouraged ... but not enforced.

It is an offer that may be taken or rejected.

All you can do with those you fail to convince, is to ignore them.

[LigH]

Funny LigH. Yes, no bat, but I do find it funny that many don't see the need at all to meet RPers half way and say hello at least when spoken too. I can live with them staying at the mine all  day, but please.... when you come into the tavern and there are people there, acknowledge their presence..... :p And to the people training cooking there... don't litter my tavern please, do clean up after yourself. 

Well ... that's a matter of parental education. Like in real life, like in game - a minimum level of civility can hardly be guaranteed for each player. But it surely helps enjoying PlaneShift.

(German) "Was du nicht willst, was man dir tu, das füg auch keinem andern zu" ~ Don't treat others like you wouldn't want to be treated yourself. I don't like to imagine that modern families might not even be able to teach that basic kind of behaviour.

[khoridor]

This is basically true, but it goes back to my point about willingness to learn. Unfortunately, many want the more established community to adjust around them instead of learning how the community RPs and then finding a less disruptive way of working their ideas for RP in. I am going to be perfectly frank, if you are a well known well loved RPer, you can skirt a some aspects of settings in your RPs...[...]

My experience is different enough to lead me to a different point of view as well. I'll skip the full background details (too long a list of differences), but let's just say I'm not part of the "established" community, yet I live happily within the PS community as an established RPing random encounter. When I meet a RPer, either our game goes smoothly, or our styles are too different and we make it short and say goodbye. With an apparently new player, I keep IC in all circumstances, and I often see, on his part, less and less OOC lines in return. I don't teach anything, I just happen to show something different, which I believe is more enjoyable. I won't teach anything if I'm not asked to do so. I don't consider a priori that people don't know how to RP, or don't want to, only that newcomers need to adjust to PS itself, just as we all do all the time. In the end, how I act is not different than with confident RPers. Then they meet you and see some more, then someone else... People who RP, people who don't, they can see it all and play the way they like.

That's for the RP vs OOC part. Game disruption, that's for the GMs entirely. I was addressed by a GM once, for disruption, while I was RPing and perfectly IC; just an example to show how different the two matters are.
Maybe there is some feeling of superiority in some RPers, and not just a reading impression. But the fact is, there are no elites, only people who won't meet.

Btw, is littering your tavern a disruptive behaviour, or a possibly bad RP ? Maybe what you need is a way to enclose the place and keep people at hand to lecture them ? 

[Morla Phlint]

LMAO! Guys you are funny! You are having this discussion for the 1000th time in the history of PS. I thought after so long time somebody would realize that all this debate has achieved, achieves and will achieve is increasing number of pages and post count (and a monstrous amount of stuff to read  . I must confess I didn't read every single post in this thread. Or the forums.) Six pages in four days. Why was I even suprised to see this "development"?

The actual purpose of this post is this: http://www.geezmagazine.org/issue06/find-the-eyes-to-see . Related to the picture Utm posted. Might be worth a read. Me personally will check now.

Have fun.

Vanitas vanitatum et omnia vanitas. (which is taken from "Asterix. The Gladiator" if you are curious)

[Illysia]

LigH: You'd be surprised. 


Khoridor: You may not see a where RP doesn't fit but RP is not a golden standard. From my observations, the way RP is handled in PS would not work for most other RP in other games. You do have to learn the ropes for RP in PS in particular. And if you are addressed for disruption by a GM then that means that your RP was inappropriate in some way. There is more to good RP than staying in character. If a GM asked you to stop believe there was a good reason as GM will sit an observe before they actually act. You play a character and you are RPing, doesn't mean you are doing it well. Good RP means it is enjoyable for more than yourself. However, it is in fact subjective to who you are around to a certain extent so, that is where there are certain standards. Like: no smilies outside of brackets, no stealing without asking, no PvP in the city. Nevertheless, we do have to tolerate each other, meaning tolerating the more strict RPers as well. :p , to form a somewhat cohesive community. No MMO can survive without a decent community.

And the littering is thoughtlessness... like some people's RPs.


Morla: If you have never engaged in a stalemate debate before, you simply have not found the thing closest to your heart to make you do it. :p You may not care about this argument but one will come which will make you do the same as we are even though you know it won't go anywhere. 

[Morla Phlint]

Morla: If you have never engaged in a stalemate debate before, you simply have not found the thing closest to your heart to make you do it. :p You may not care about this argument but one will come which will make you do the same as we are even though you know it won't go anywhere. 

Nuo, nuo, I have taken part in a few of those. So even if it leads nowhere, we should continue to talk? Whyy? Enlighten the ignorant pls!

[khoridor]

And if you are addressed for disruption by a GM then that means that your RP was inappropriate in some way.

As I briefly mentioned, it wasn't. The point of that precise example is that before being a RP game, it's a MMO game; I do not therefore argue with a GM. If I have to use an OOC tool to avoid being disruptive, I'll do it. Anyway, I do not wish to emphasize 5 minutes of fairly needed OOCness in decades of flawless Khoridorness. 

Nevertheless, we do have to tolerate each other, meaning tolerating the more strict RPers as well. :p , [...]

Indeed we do. Tolerate, and if possible enjoy. I do have good time with some very OOC-prone characters, personally; it's even hard not to get contaminated sometimes.

So we all play the way we want, and we don't disrupt each other's game. That's good enough a common ground for me. Who to play or not to play with... well, that's more a question of opportunities, really.

[Aiwendil]

- i think some miscommunication or perhaps misunderstanding is this: people can at a certain point play a role of a fighter in a championship [IRL festivities with people fighting were held many times just for the fun of watching fighters, plus of course the fighters wanting to win a prize and perhaps fame]

Sure, nobody denies this. But coming up with always more spectacular tournaments and places for such occasions isn't appropriate when you want to do an IC tournaments. The winch is meant to be a place where the wares of the other levels come in. Doing a tournament there just for the thrill of not falling down is not really something I can consider good roleplay. And I also don't see how killing as much as possible NPCs in a given time can be seen as Roleplay. Oh...and a attack on the Eagle Bronze doors fortress...mmh..sure, and I guess the characters who do the attack live with the consequences afterward too. I doubt the Octarchy would be very happy about this or that the guards based in the fortress would just ignore this.

- and why should people that want to form a guild go to ezpcusa? like i stated earlier.. they want a family and home (in the widest sense of the word home.. [i don't see how that isn't rp]

Okay, sorry, was not very clear on that. If someone wants to make a guild just for the sake to stay in touch with his player friends he/she should go to ezpcusa. I'm not the one who complains about players using the guild mechanics to create families or organizations with a RP background.

- about breaking the law, there are rules.. and i abide them (mostly), but i don't see the problem in people who don't, if they choose to be b@d@sses, let them [what's wrong with that kind of RP?]

Nothing wrong if they accept consequences. I just don't see that most characters who show such behavior accept those. They continue killing characters in towns, ignore guards at all and don't give anyone the chance to react to their doings.

- about ENFORCING RP.. it must be me.. but i think some ppl have weird ideas [i am not gonna say what i think, cuz i abide forum rules]

As far as I know laanx is even in the login screen called a RP server. So asking for rules to enforce RP there shouldn't be too surprising. People who don't want to follow those rules have an alternative in ezpcusa.

- Some people also need to narrow their idea of what rp is

Thanks Rigwyn, to me it seems a lot of people call everything they RP just because they play a RPG.

I fully believe that "the roleplayers" can ease off the rudeness and self-superiority, and that the "powerlevelers" can play in character without being rude.

No sorry, I don't believe this. And you already said so too in a way:

Many have already been doing it for years, with or without enforcement. Thats why this discussion keeps coming up, again and again.

Yes, this or a similar discussion comes up every few month. But there is a difference in my view now. We have two servers and the possibility to separate the players now. So what's wrong with one server where RP is enforced and another without such rules. One server would be like laanx is now for the Non-Rpers and the other could offer RPers the safe place without disruption. So if we want to avoid the same discussion over and over again the only reason I see is to keeps the player apart from each other. Right now we have a server that by no means can be called a RP server and another server that isn't used at all. Is that the situation we all want?

I fully believe that "the roleplayers" can ease off the rudeness and self-superiority, and that the "powerlevelers" can play in character without being rude.

This isn't really about rudeness or self-superiority. It's just about the fact that it isn't possible for both parties to have fun with each other. There is no right way to play PlaneShift. It has been said often enough now...Everyone should have fun, so I only ask for a solution how this is possible.

Bad behaviour is not (directly) about RP. It's about players, game balance, fairness, etc. And actually, in the recent posts, It feels like it is not about RP vs PL anymore; it sounds more like about good RP vs bad RP. Seems to me that there is a contingent of new RP enthusiasts somewhere, only a bit rough and loud. Show them something more polished (one by one, most likely), and you may all get fun in the end.

Yes it is and I never intended to make it a RP vs PLer debate. But how to help players "improve" their RP if they try to mug or kill you right in front of a guard ignoring all IC references of you to that guard?. Using polite OOC tells I have give up already some time ago as the only answers I got was "screw it, nobody cares about that".

LMAO! Guys you are funny! You are having this discussion for the 1000th time in the history of PS. I thought after so long time somebody would realize that all this debate has achieved, achieves and will achieve is increasing number of pages and post count (and a monstrous amount of stuff to read  . I must confess I didn't read every single post in this thread. Or the forums.) Six pages in four days. Why was I even suprised to see this "development"?

Nuo, nuo, I have taken part in a few of those. So even if it leads nowhere, we should continue to talk? Whyy? Enlighten the ignorant pls!

Sure Morla, I think my thread title already indicates that I'm fully aware that this isn't discussed for the first time and that it won't lead to any solution. But I also see no reason to stay silent about this. Is it a good solution to just not talk about problems and ignore that they even exist. And there is always the chance that someone reads this thread and then starts to adjust his/her behavior...be it to the one side or the other.

[Sen]

Many have already been doing it for years, with or without enforcement. Thats why this discussion keeps coming up, again and again.

Yes, this or a similar discussion comes up every few month. But there is a difference in my view now. We have two servers and the possibility to separate the players now. So what's wrong with one server where RP is enforced and another without such rules. One server would be like laanx is now for the Non-Rpers and the other could offer RPers the safe place without disruption. So if we want to avoid the same discussion over and over again the only reason I see is to keeps the player apart from each other. Right now we have a server that by no means can be called a RP server and another server that isn't used at all. Is that the situation we all want?

I also think the discussion is now a different just because what Aiwendil said. We do not speak about planeshift itself like before, we speak about the RP-server of planeshift.

And inside this RP-server it is about:

Nevertheless, we do have to tolerate each other, meaning tolerating the more strict RPers as well.

This thread is imho only (!) about people who do not care at all about others and who are not even willing to think about it or change. And that something should be done about that.

(I also said before we should try to give examples of what we[tm] think is better, but this is, if I understand Aiwendil right, not the topic of this thread. How to react on disruptive OOC behaviour in general should be discussed in a different thread. I hope I got it right this time )


Sen

[zoran]

Polarizing this thread into "enforcing RP" vs being "tolerant" to all ways of playing the game isn't really fair.

The RP'ers have pointed out that there is a fundamental problem for RP on the "tolerant" side: when faced with blatant OOC circumvention of settings or disruptive OOC-driven play, there is only a choice of lesser evils, all of which blow one's own RP.

• Engaging the out-of-settings play in an IC-manner will actually validate it as RP.
• Ignoring it will work for some kind of out-of-settings descriptions and such, but not for disruptive OOC-driven play (example: bystanders are killed in front of you in the plaza). It will actually be very OOC for the RPer in the latter case.

This situation is completely skewed one-sidedly against the RP'er!

Note that addressing the problem OOC is a valiant attempt to get at the source of the problem, which will work in the case of a player who is just casually disruptive or against settings or a new player discovering his style of play. However, in a lot of cases (and these are the cases described here), it will not help since the player is committed to his play. In any case, this is a break in the flow of RP and an IC solution will have to be found anyway unless the disrupting player backs off from his play completely.

I think it's not very constructive to put forward as only solution to this problem of "what can *we* do about it?" that "*you* just need to learn to cope with it". That may or may not be the case, but it doesn't answer the question (or rather, gives "nothing can be done" as an answer).

The "tolerant" approach is not to try to blend all styles of play into one, but to try to identify different needs and address them as such.

The "enforcing" approach should not create out-of-game or in-game processes, institutions or committees which will not be able to work transparently and consistently over time or have a punishing nature. (one-time wipes - not that they might not be a good idea for other reasons - or guild-approval committees fall in this category)

Useful questions (while understanding that the game is far from complete yet) are:
1. How do existing mechanics or game aspects fail to protect and foster "deep RP"?
2. What does the game or settings lack for players that seek more excitement that could be there at this point of development?

The first question probably has been discussed a lot already. For me particularly, these things stand out:

• character progression is practically impossible to achieve ICly unless you play a gladiator-miner  
• quests are a great way to get introduced to the settings gradually, but there are not enough of them that are linked to the settings rather than being of a personal nature, and many quests are very OOC to complete for various characters, but still necessary to gain some item or glyph (or winch access?)
• there is no kind of in-game bulletin or message board or rumor system other than leaving books in various places
• the faction system is of no consequence

The second question I don't see discussed much:

• Yliakum apparently doesn't hold a lot of conflict. The races get along well, the government is stable, and luckily there's no black-and-white good vs evil struggle going on. But for the newcomer, this set-up is extremely hard to position oneself in. It feels almost placid. Now I understand that there are intrigues, corruption on various levels, and other realms with beings looking to get into Yliakum all waiting to be discovered or unleashed on the players, but all this seems pretty fictional to the players (who can merely read about it in various books).
• Apparently, we need some dramatic windswept mountain ledge that served as a long-standing duelling or tournament spot...
• There are few places in the game that hold danger, and those that do don't lead to anywhere (...apparently...). Of course this is largely limited by NPC AI, too. But it's not like these places encourage players to group up for an expedition (unless RP'ed).

To sum it up... (not meaning to criticize the devs here, but to point out what could need more attention)

• there's too little to do in-settings for people who seek some excitement, which is why they bring it to others (possibly disruptively)
• there's too few means for people who try to progress their characters' ICly
• and the mechanics don't bring these two aspects together enough

[Orgonwukh]

I doubt that the roleplayers will become more tolerant because of this discussion. I also doubt that PLers will try to stick closer to the settings because of this discussion. The only thing that might change something is intervention from above!
*Orgonwukh looks at the crystal sky and wonders about what is going to happen*

[Lhaa]

First of all, let me quote the definition of Planeshift from Planeshift.it. Not the one I gave it, the one the PS team gave to it:
PlaneShift is a Role Playing Game immersed into a 3D virtual fantasy world which is FULLY FREE to play.

- about ENFORCING RP.. it must be me.. but i think some ppl have weird ideas

Read above.

Too many thoughts about rules and laws...
[...]
But be fair, and play it so that you will take the consequences.

You have provided the answer yourself. No rules, but you want people to be fair.
Why'd you ever expect everybody to play fair when there are no rules at all to follow?

Take this to a RL situation then. Would every sportsman play fair without a referee? Have you pondered how'd Germany (just 'cause it's where you live) be without a police? Without jails? Rules are there because some people isn't able to behave without them and that won't change, not IRL, not IG.
Some will play fair, some won't. Some will roleplay, some won't.
Expecting everybody to do it without enforcement is as naive as expecting everybody to pay the taxes gladly "because it's good for our country".
This simply won't happen. Politicians found this out thousands of years ago.

For the guild creation problem here is an idea. We have the OSP which after the recent first round now has a combination of GMs and guild reps that will judge the second round of OSP applications. What if there was a OSP type committee for handing out licenses for new guilds.  Basically if someone wants to do a new guild they would have to make a presentation to the OSP style committee and convince the committee that there is a need for the new proposed guild. If the guild applicant convinces the majority of the committee then the new guild is given permission to be formed.

That indeed sounds like a good idea. I'm just afraid it has to be some kind of OOC committee if all guilds needs to be approved by this. I don't think an IC committee would accept chaotic or unlawful guilds. But I don't really see a problem with this. Enforcing rules can't always be IC.

I can't agree with this. For the same reasons above. Make an IC committe with players (be them the OSP winners, be them the GMs, be them whoever) and you'll find another, much larger, amount of players complaining about favoritism and about those players being given the power to decide. Not saying I wouldn't like this, I'm sure I'd be happier about their decisions than the average PS player, simply don't think it'd work without causing a lot of trouble.
So, I stress, make rules. Define what is acceptable and what not, and have the people creating guilds abide to such. You can still have your IC council, which would work decisions -from- these very clear rules. Way to avoid conflict.

The game is free for all to play. This was decided long ago by the team from the top down. That concept takes precedence over RP.

I must have got something wrong, can't see the relation within money and roleplay.
If you can explain this, please enlighten me.

I remember when it was said we'd never have a second non-rp server.

The whole idea of an non-RP server for an RP game (read the 2nd line in my post is already somewhat hilarious. But what's worse is that server isn't even used at all. Not by non-RPers, not by RPers, not even for testing... or at least this is how it does look like seeing that the NPC client keeps lagging Laanx out once and again.

And most of the people who have played this game have wanted a combination of both progression and roleplay.

Progression should be part of the roleplay. You are the one making splits.

I fully believe that "the roleplayers" can ease off the rudeness and self-superiority, and that the "powerlevelers" can play in character without being rude.

I'm amused at the fact some players in an RP game are not roleplayers and are not called such without any modesty.
When you play a shooter you don't try to RP, you shoot people; when you play a puzzles game you don't shoot people, you try to solve the puzzles; when you play chess you don't try to solve puzzles, you look for the best strategy to kill the king; when you play frisbee you don't look for the best strategy to kill a king, simply grab and shoot the freakin' thing.
The fact that some people won't RP in an RP game is simply funny.

I'd raise an interrogative brow to anyone telling me that I play my glassblower out of setting.

Playing non implemented skills is not off-setting. Playing laser sabres is.
Mechanics are not yet developed to allow glassblowing, no way it means there are no glassblowers in Yliakum.

All you can do with those you fail to convince, is to ignore them.

Ignoring players shouldn't be the ultimate solution to disrupting behaviors, an end should be put to them.

Morla: If you have never engaged in a stalemate debate before, you simply have not found the thing closest to your heart to make you do it. :p You may not care about this argument but one will come which will make you do the same as we are even though you know it won't go anywhere.  

Nuo, nuo, I have taken part in a few of those. So even if it leads nowhere, we should continue to talk? Whyy? Enlighten the ignorant pls!

I disagree. It does lead somewhere.
I've seen GM guards patrolling the streets of Hydlaa thrice in te last three days.

Right now we have a server that by no means can be called a RP server and another server that isn't used at all. Is that the situation we all want?

Apparently, yes.

I doubt that the roleplayers will become more tolerant because of this discussion. I also doubt that PLers will try to stick closer to the settings because of this discussion. The only thing that might change something is intervention from above!
*Orgonwukh looks at the crystal sky and wonders about what is going to happen*

In a way, this is already happening.

* Lhaa runs off now, fearing Orgonwukh may have unleashed the wrath of the Gods...

Edit: Fixed a couple of typos

[Keldrena]

The whole idea of an non-RP server for an RP game (read the 2nd line in my post Wink is already somewhat hilarious. But what's worse is that server isn't even used at all. Not by non-RPers, not by RPers, not even for testing... or at least this is how it does look like seeing that the NPC client keeps lagging Laanx out once and again.

Lhaa, I've been here since 2003/2004. I know. I think if would be a simple matter that if you keep breaking rules on Laanx, you get kicked to EZ.

[verden]

No sorry, I don't believe this. And you already said so too in a way:

I simply said that I believe that people can get along, not that I believe that they do. I believe this about the Middle East as well.

Right now we have a server that by no means can be called a RP server and another server that isn't used at all. Is that the situation we all want?

I don't believe that is what anyone wants. But it is what we have. The question is why is there so little RP on Laanx, and why do those other players not want to go to EZ-PC? Saying the other server isn't used at all is not precise, it is and has been being used.

So asking for rules to enforce RP there shouldn't be too surprising. People who don't want to follow those rules have an alternative in ezpcusa.

Since RP is not disallowed on the second server, and since "nobody is over there", then why hasn't any RP simply moved over to the second server? I think that the reasons this has not happened, are the same reasons that most others are not going over there.

This isn't really about rudeness or self-superiority. It's just about the fact that it isn't possible for both parties to have fun with each other. There is no right way to play PlaneShift. It has been said often enough now...Everyone should have fun, so I only ask for a solution how this is possible.

Yes, it is. The rudeness and self-superiority are the reason both parties cannot have fun with each other. But you are asking for some kind of final solution that does not exist, or cannot be implemented. If it did, the developers would have implemented it or would have made a serious proposal for a feature that would allow for it. But it leads to a very gray and tricky area, and these people are making a game, not coding a system to judge people and then mete out punishment to those that don't agree with them.

This situation is completely skewed one-sidedly against the RP'er!

The situation is skewed against the RP'er. But that is because of human nature, not because of the game system. And the game system isn't going to be able to solve it. That is why ignoring it is the only way. In the past I played on private servers running NWN that were completely immersive and RP-oriented. People who disrupted or refused to play in character were simply banned. PlaneShift does not want to do this because it does not fit with the egalitarian ideals that the project is based on.

character progression is practically impossible to achieve ICly unless you play a gladiator-miner 

Due to the game not being finished. This is why I am in favor of finishing the development on the game before attempting to create systems that enforce or punish behavior. We do not know how the game will play when it is finished.

quests are a great way to get introduced to the settings gradually, but there are not enough of them that are linked to the settings rather than being of a personal nature, and many quests are very OOC to complete for various characters, but still necessary to gain some item or glyph (or winch access?)

the faction system is of no consequence

I think that the development of the Government Way and the Rogues Way for Winch access is a IC development-oriented use of the quest and faction system.

there is no kind of in-game bulletin or message board or rumor system other than leaving books in various places

A couple of years ago, books didn't exist.

The "enforcing" approach should not create out-of-game or in-game processes, institutions or committees which will not be able to work transparently and consistently over time or have a punishing nature. (one-time wipes - not that they might not be a good idea for other reasons - or guild-approval committees fall in this category)

I agree. I also think that any attempts to do this will embolden the griefers. Due also to the prevalence of "your RP isn't RP, only my RP is RP" many who did RP fine within the game have left and will leave.

Nuo, nuo, I have taken part in a few of those. So even if it leads nowhere, we should continue to talk? Whyy? Enlighten the ignorant pls!

If the discussion is not continued, then nobody will learn anything. Development proceeds from dialog and discussion.

I must have got something wrong, can't see the relation within money and roleplay. If you can explain this, please enlighten me.

If the developers wanted to exclude anyone who did not roleplay. They would have stated this explicitly. Perhaps you can explain why people who do not play in character are not simply banned outright the first time they say "lol"?

Ignoring players shouldn't be the ultimate solution to disrupting behaviors, an end should be put to them.

It would appear that Talad and the team don't appear to agree with that treatment, otherwise we would not have the situation as it is.

[LigH]

@ Lhaa:

You have a talent of cutting out parts of sentences that don't belong together at all... criminal.

With a bit of good will, you could interpret it this way: Don't try to make new and explicitly written game rules which are much more complicated than parental advises, generic etiquette, civility. The more complex a law is, the easier it can be misunderstood.

The more we argue about sentences, the less we argue about content. (^ next post by khoridor)

If you want to play an ass, expect to be kicked.