PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: drah on July 09, 2007, 09:19:03 am
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Is fighting on the plaza actually a bannable offense?
I know it's "illegal" according to the in-game law, but laws can be broken ICly... I'm looking for the OOC rules relating to this. (just to clarify)
If there were, say, 50 combattants... would the guards realistically be able to do much? or would fighting with these numbers still be considered OOC?
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If there were, say, 50 combattants... would the guards realistically be able to do much? or would fighting with these numbers still be considered OOC?
There's a huge sentry tower next to the plaza. Headquarters probably somewhere nearby.
Before half of those 50 had the chance to wipe one another, they would find themselves surrounded by a huge number of crossbowmen. Yes, I think it would be easy to stop them.
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It wouldnt be ooc to fight there. It would be ooc if you refused to disarm and be placed into jail for some amount of time.
Edit: This may be good to write about:
Current game mechanics are so undeveloped that most actions cant be roleplayed by these game mechanics. For instance, you can go to Plazaa make duels beetwen all, but in the meanwhile you should keep in mind there are guards gathering around, as they wouldn't miss so much trouble makes gathering in town (what game mechanics can't provide). Then its hard to say what exactly the guards woud do: try to stop before you start, or let your numbers decrease a bit as you fight each another. Then you would have to figure out who would exactly win (probably guards, but nothign is sure), if someone escape, what would be the losses, who would be taken... what would happen in jail, what punisment, if you got all stuff taken from you back... and so on.
All this can't be provided by game mechanics.
If you want to ignore all this, then you aren't playing RP game, but just a game.
Or RP game where are rules of life are screwed up and has almost nothing to do with how everyone RP in a game like Planeshift.
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Thanks for the responses. I was only asking so I can better know the limits of what is and isn't plausible.
I never really gave consideration to the guards that we can't see and obviously, because of this... was under the false impression that Hydlaa only had about 10 guards. :)
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Roleplay your invasion, and it will be IC.
The "common law" mostly exists to avoid an impression to newcomers, that PlaneShift could be a completely lawless, hostile environment: There is a PvP area in the arena, and there are pacified areas in contrast. You may see it as a strong recommendation not to play egoistically, not to slay noobs whereever they are so careless to accept a challenge.
Furthermore, there are a few "IC guards", if you like to see some lawful good guilds this way.
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I think its been well established by Ligh, Nikodemus, and Draklar that its possible to make it ooc by ignoring the fact that hydlaa is a secure city and not a defesnless city. But at the same time if role played properly it can be IC, i've seen occasions, they typically take place behind a building, somewhere far from harnquists out of the public eye.
Realisticly if you were going to kill someone, would you do it in the middle of the most lively, active part of the city? or would you wait and follow them to a more quiet, unknown part of town where there are fewer eyes to witness your crime?
So the answer, No, fighting in hydlaa is not always ooc... but it certainly is when ahem you kill a guy at the fountain and don't role play the fact that EVERYONE likely knows that you just murdered, including the guards. Or how about the famous battles at harnquist?
Harnquist seems to be a hub for all passing by hydlaa, so its typical for lazy, carless thugs to start fights there, however most don't realise that since its such a big gathering spot that they don't stand a chance of escaping the law.
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If there were, say, 50 combattants... would the guards realistically be able to do much? or would fighting with these numbers still be considered OOC?
There's a huge sentry tower next to the plaza. Headquarters probably somewhere nearby.
Before half of those 50 had the chance to wipe one another, they would find themselves surrounded by a huge number of crossbowmen. Yes, I think it would be easy to stop them.
There are no crossbows in yliakum. Whats more, what, are the guards just going to open fire in a crowd? BTW- said crossbows would hold one shot, and have a RoF of about 2 bolts per min.
I think you've not thought your position out very well.
What law? There is no law. I can write anything down on a piece of paper and call it a law. doesnt mean anyone will follow it. There is no law at harns cause no one enforces it, and certainly not in an IC fashion.
I'll tell you whats OC, a GM freezing and levitating 30 players, then letting them all drop at once, killing many of them. THAT is ooc.
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I think you've not thought your position out very well.
I think your post is amusing.
What law? There is no law. I can write anything down on a piece of paper and call it a law. doesnt mean anyone will follow it. I'll tell you whats OC, a GM freezing and levitating 30 players, then letting them all drop at once, killing many of them. THAT is ooc.
1) Go to Jayose's library.
2) Look for a book dealing with Yliakum's decree's.
3) Read it.
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That would be awesome o.o But anyways... Who said there are no crossbows in PS?
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Valorius Rageway
You are terribly missing what do we RP in this world ;P
What you say maybe wouldmake sense in some other world you made (well, in fact many of the so calld MMORPGs ;P), but not Yliakum.
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In response to this ...
why was there a GM dueling event in the plaza not long ago?
(I'm all for GM events and truly appreciate the effort that goes into them ... it just struck me as odd)
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I think you've not thought your position out very well.
I think your post is amusing.
What law? There is no law. I can write anything down on a piece of paper and call it a law. doesnt mean anyone will follow it. I'll tell you whats OC, a GM freezing and levitating 30 players, then letting them all drop at once, killing many of them. THAT is ooc.
1) Go to Jayose's library.
2) Look for a book dealing with Yliakum's decree's.
3) Read it.
You miss my point entirely. When no one is there to enforce a law, it's not a law at all. It's wishful thinking. There is no enforcement at harns. It is simply wishful thinking to expect that there be no fighting there. Heck, we can't stop crime and murder NOW, in the 21st century.
What's more, by their very nature bans are ineffective at best. All over the moden world murder is 'banned', yet....all around us, carnage. And there's laws against all of it. Yet it still proliferates.
PS: Please- don't start with the stupid flaming.
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Laanx shouts: Please fight outside my Plaza, This is a place af peace and will remain that way. You can go outside the gates of Hydlaa or visit the arena, if you need to fight.
Laanx shouts: if i notice you are fighting at my Plaza, you will meet my vengeance.
Is it this what the topic is about?
It happend some days ago. And I saw Valorius and Drah and many of their guildmembers at the plaza.
According to the often criticised behaviour of Valaorius and her guilds the question have to be: "Dueling ALWAYS OOC???"
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I still wanna know who said there was no crossbows in yliakum :/
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I still wanna know who said there was no crossbows in yliakum :/
Only make-believe ones my friend. (be great if they were in 019 though. :))
Laanx shouts: Please fight outside my Plaza, This is a place af peace and will remain that way. You can go outside the gates of Hydlaa or visit the arena, if you need to fight.
Laanx shouts: if i notice you are fighting at my Plaza, you will meet my vengeance.
Is it this what the topic is about?
It happend some days ago. And I saw Valorius and Drah and many of their guildmembers at the plaza.
According to the often criticised behaviour of Valaorius and her guilds the question have to be: "Dueling ALWAYS OOC???"
That was a guild war vs the Lost Souls and Vlahii/Prophets of Chaos and some allied volunteers. Two guilds that many would call 'evil', or 'bad'. Yet they're expected to respect an invisible authority at harns like good citizens? If i may diverge a little, How can you even RP a 'bad guy' (or an enforcer for the good guys) when half time you do something 'bad'(or even in character), you get into trouble, warned, frozen and moved to DR, or OOC harassment warnings over it? You can't RP anything that may 'offend' the other player, as they can simply escape any RP by claiming OOC harassment, though the comments or behaviour that they're reporting is actually completely IC, and completely RP appropriate. Not to mention those slick players that know they can abuse the OOC harassment rules nearly at will to avoid any negative RP consequence they may create for themselves via their IC actions.
For instance, if you catch a spy in your guild. Or a traitor. Pursuing and 'harassing' such players for 'vengeance' is 100% realistic. Not just appropriate, but actually called for to maintain any sort of realistic flavor. In medievil times, traitors hung by the neck until dead...if they were lucky....But not in PS? PS is an RP game, right? How is it such if you can't even IC insult a spy & traitor to their face?
Back to the few guards handling a big warring army, there were and still are riots and mobs and demonstrations in city sqaures all over the planet. Even with machine guns, riot police, and CS gas large crowds are hard to control. Rarely are rioters who criminally misbehave caught. In a medievil setting, the challenge for the guards is 100x tougher.
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There are crossbows, just the general populace is not allowed to have them yet. The guards may have them as much as they wish.
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Still ever so amusing xD
Valorius, did you by any chance notice the context of this thread? It's not about what's already implemented. It's about what behaviour is proper RP-wise, and what is OOC.
Examples:
Hydlaa has to withstand serious attacks from roaming beasts... it most likely has a serious guard service.
If someone has crossbow aimed at you, it isn't very likely you'll think about how many bolts it has to shoot.
Just because something isn't implemented, doesn't mean it doesn't exist RP-wise.
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You miss my point entirely.
Actually noone is missing your point, but it is you who mis ours ;P
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Valorius. If you walk into the middle of London (or whatever your capital may be) and stab someone you get arrested and put in jail. Same happens in the Hydlaa, its just as a game the mechanics aren't there. So, you would have to RP your character as an idiot if you wanted to kill someone in broad daylight in the Hydlaa. And then you wouldn't log on with them because as far as everyone else is concerned you are in jail. Now as far as the large attack Drah mentioned goes, that could very reasonably be done within the realms of good RP because there is no reason to assume that our characters know the level of protection in the Hydlaa so they might well think they can pull it off.
I think there should be a mob called 'Guard' that GMs can spawn anywhere in the hydlaa. These would attack anyone taking a combat stance. The GM could then take the role of lead guard which would lend to the RP immersion.
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Still ever so amusing xD
Valorius, did you by any chance notice the context of this thread? It's not about what's already implemented. It's about what behaviour is proper RP-wise, and what is OOC.
Examples:
Hydlaa has to withstand serious attacks from roaming beasts... it most likely has a serious guard service.
If someone has crossbow aimed at you, it isn't very likely you'll think about how many bolts it has to shoot.
Just because something isn't implemented, doesn't mean it doesn't exist RP-wise.
Sigh....
A crossbow holds one bolt, everyone knows it. A crossbow takes a long time to load, everyone knows that too.
A guard tower can only hold a few crossbowmen, and only a few would be on duty at once. Do you really think warring guilds or factions wouldn't consider these facts and take them into account? Any leader with any kind of sense would carefully assess such factors.
As for attacks from outside the city, Hydlaa has WALLS with controlled access gates for external security, so it can effectively defend itself with a minimal security contingent(which is the entire purpose of walls to begin with). And my friend, that is utterly irrelevant to it's ability to maintain internal security. You may be amused at the observations of this ex-professional soldier and non-commissioned officer all you want-
It doesnt mean you're right though.
Farren: If bows were invented everyone would have them- they can be made from simple wood and twine. A crossbow is simply a more powerful bow. The notion of the guards alone having them is laughable on it's very face. "Gun control" doesnt work now, it certainly wouldnt work back then. What are implemented are wizards, and a high level wizard could certainly outgun a guard in a tower with a crossbow, dont you think?
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everyone WILL have cross bows when they are implemented. *Resists flaming as much as he can*
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Valorius. If you walk into the middle of London (or whatever your capital may be) and stab someone you get arrested and put in jail.
Sometimes you'd get caught, and sometimes you wouldn't. And in almost all cases, you wouldn't get caught right then and there, but later. And we're talking about 21st century london. Look at the murder rates for philadelphia where i live sometime. ANd less than half our killers get caught.
Same happens in the Hydlaa, its just as a game the mechanics aren't there.
Sorry, in a midevil setting that level of control is simply impossible to attain against a large warring crowd. Let alone one bristiling with high level mages.
So, you would have to RP your character as an idiot if you wanted to kill someone in broad daylight in the Hydlaa.
People are killed in broad daylight in cities all accross america and all over the world, even today. Probably even right now...
And then you wouldn't log on with them because as far as everyone else is concerned you are in jail. Now as far as the large attack Drah mentioned goes, that could very reasonably be done within the realms of good RP because there is no reason to assume that our characters know the level of protection in the Hydlaa so they might well think they can pull it off.
Again, this is EXACTLY the sort of thing a guild would very carefully study and monitor not just to prepare for war, but at all times. Seriously, the absolute and total lack of basic knowledge with regards to operational neccesities and basic military planning is overwhelming.
You simply wouldnt war in a city without knowing the guards response times and capabilities.
I think there should be a mob called 'Guard' that GMs can spawn anywhere in the hydlaa. These would attack anyone taking a combat stance. The GM could then take the role of lead guard which would lend to the RP immersion.
THAT i agree with, and ive suggested it to a few GMs of late.
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Okay, first of all: bows and crossbows are completely different things.
Now: Is it really that hard to comprehend when you're surrounded by a group of guards, no one will stand out due to the fear of facing certain death?
It doesn't matter how many bolts they can shoot. Crossbow is a weapon that any peasant can use and at the same time weapon that can easily pierce plate mail. That's why the weapon was despised so much. When you're surrounded by a group of people, each of whom can kill you with but a trigger of their finger, it's downright stupid to attack.
And fight between 50 people will give enough time for the guards to gather and stop whoever remains. Especially that there's a sentry tower right next to the plaza (place they can easily shoot people from too).
And looking at your recent arguments, I really have to underline it... Apparently it's extremely hard to understand.
There's a huge sentry tower right next to the plaza. If someone duels there, the guards will see it well enough.
Even if you somehow manage to run away, they will know who you are.
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And then you wouldn't log on with them because as far as everyone else is concerned you are in jail. Now as far as the large attack Drah mentioned goes, that could very reasonably be done within the realms of good RP because there is no reason to assume that our characters know the level of protection in the Hydlaa so they might well think they can pull it off.
Again, this is EXACTLY the sort of thing a guild would very carefully study and monitor not just to prepare for war, but at all times. Seriously, the absolute and total lack of basic knowledge with regards to operational neccesities and basic military planning is overwhelming.
You simply wouldnt war in a city without knowing the guards response times and capabilities.
Who said anything about a guild war?
P.S Oh and a lot less people get killed everyday than you seem to think :)
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Okay, first of all: bows and crossbows are completely different things.
Yes, crossbows are far more complex bows- yet there are no bows.
Now: Is it really that hard to comprehend when you're surrounded by a group of guards, no one will stand out due to the fear of facing certain death?
The problem is, anyone in hyldaa plaza IS NOT completely surrounded by guards. There is one tower, and one guard over by the winch- and that's it.
It doesn't matter how many bolts they can shoot. Crossbow is a weapon that any peasant can use and at the same time weapon that can easily pierce plate mail.
Sure, if you dont miss. And if youre the one in 50 thats unlucky enough to be targetted by the few gaurds.
That's why the weapon was despised so much. When you're surrounded by a group of people, each of whom can kill you with but a trigger of their finger, it's downright stupid to attack.
A) Youre not surrounded, B) you have far more firepower than a guy with a crossbow if youre a mage. Arrow spell goes through walls. And then there's meteors...
And fight between 50 people will give enough time for the guards to gather and stop whoever remains. Especially that there's a sentry tower right next to the plaza (place they can easily shoot people from too).
That's why everyone that gets into bar fights or fights at the sporting arena is caught...cause that many people fighting always get caught. Except they dont....not even today, with radios and cops and cameras and dogs, and etc, etc.
And looking at your recent arguments, I really have to underline it... Apparently it's extremely hard to understand.
There's a huge sentry tower right next to the plaza. If someone duels there, the guards will see it well enough.
Even if you somehow manage to run away, they will know who you are.
Yes, cause one could never wear a disguise or hide out in the countryside or an uncle's house in Oja until the heat settled down. People- look around you at our world today- even with our modern tech we still have prolific crime.
Again...you wish for a utopia that is unrealistic in almost every possible way to achieve.
And then you wouldn't log on with them because as far as everyone else is concerned you are in jail. Now as far as the large attack Drah mentioned goes, that could very reasonably be done within the realms of good RP because there is no reason to assume that our characters know the level of protection in the Hydlaa so they might well think they can pull it off.
Again, this is EXACTLY the sort of thing a guild would very carefully study and monitor not just to prepare for war, but at all times. Seriously, the absolute and total lack of basic knowledge with regards to operational neccesities and basic military planning is overwhelming.
You simply wouldnt war in a city without knowing the guards response times and capabilities.
Who said anything about a guild war?
This thread is posted in direct response to events surrounding a guild war this weekend.
My various observations in this thread are based on my military MOUT/COIN training and experience as a former infantryman in the US Army(which all grunts get). I am sorry they do not reconcile with your notions of what's actually attainable or even realistic for security forces. (let alone in the dark ages).
I've said my piece.
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There ARE bows, they just haven't been put in the game. Jeez.
Doesn't say anything about that in the 1st post.
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Valorius... No one's asking what is implemented.
In likewise manner, no one cares what you have to say.
And as far as I remember, after dueling you don't run away to hide all the way in Oja. You keep standing by the plaza in the most visible place possible. You're trying to make a point or just trying to be funny?
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Valorius... No one's asking what is implemented.
In likewise manner, no one cares what you have to say.
And as far as I remember, after dueling you don't run away to hide all the way to Oja. You keep standing by the plaza in the most visible place possible. You're trying to make a point or just trying to be funny?
If you dont care what i have to say why are you responding to my posts? Why have you devolved into petty insults? Oh, right, because arguing with someone that has a professional background in a subject you obviously know little about casts you in a poor light.
One guard on foot and one guard tower is not an inviolable security environment, nor even close. You totally discount things like diversions, limited visibility, blindspots, deliberate obscuration, magic, etc, etc. What if i cast dazzling light at the towers occupants first? Or phantasmal voices? Or just plain arrow them to death right through the stone walls? I'll take lvl 90CW Enrg Arrow over a crossbow any day my friend. It never misses...and it goes through any armor.
PS: Characters in game do not run away because they all know that no one is coming to get them. If GMs appeared in plate armor dealing justice and death, i assure you, duelists would run after a slaying.
At any rate, since "no one cares what i say", Ciao.
Hello!
I think there is only one solution for this PvP versus Non-PvP(RPG?) discussion: create a PvP-server and a RPG-server. On the PvP-server you can have all the PvP you want and limit the PvP on the RPG-server to certain areas or conditions, such as challenges.
With kind regards
Kaityra
That would be great.
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Hello!
I think there is only one solution for this PvP versus Non-PvP(RPG?) discussion: create a PvP-server and a RPG-server. On the PvP-server you can have all the PvP you want and limit the PvP on the RPG-server to certain areas or conditions, such as challenges.
With kind regards
Kaityra
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If you dont care what i have to say why are you responding to my posts?
Because you clutter the thread with irrelevant stuff.
This thread isn't about what is implemented and what isn't.
This thread is a question aimed at role-players, or otherwise people who know anything about it. What you posted so far works as nothing else than misleading information.
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Valorius... No one's asking what is implemented.
In likewise manner, no one cares what you have to say.
And as far as I remember, after dueling you don't run away to hide all the way to Oja. You keep standing by the plaza in the most visible place possible. You're trying to make a point or just trying to be funny?
If you dont care what i have to say why are you responding to my posts? Why have you devolved into petty insults? Oh, right, because arguing with someone that has a professional background in a subject you obviously know little about casts you in a poor light.
One guard on foot and one guard tower is not an inviolable security environment, nor even close. You totally discount things like diversions, limited visibility, blindspots, deliberate obscuration, magic, etc, etc. What if i cast dazzling light at the towers occupants first? Or phantasmal voices? Or just plain arrow them to death right through the stone walls? I'll take lvl 90CW Enrg Arrow over a crossbow any day my friend. It never misses...and it goes through any armor.
PS: Characters in game do not run away because they all know that no one is coming to get them. If GMs appeared in plate armor dealing justice and death, i assure you, duelists would run after a slaying.
At any rate, since "no one cares what i say", Ciao.
Hello!
I think there is only one solution for this PvP versus Non-PvP(RPG?) discussion: create a PvP-server and a RPG-server. On the PvP-server you can have all the PvP you want and limit the PvP on the RPG-server to certain areas or conditions, such as challenges.
With kind regards
Kaityra
That would be great.
I think the idea is that he is replying so gullible people don't take your ideas whole heartedly on board. Our CHARACTERS do think the guards are coming to get them. Its the PLAYERS that don't. Hence bad roleplay. There could be a million guards for all you know.
This is a RP game. Not a PvP game. Find a PvP game or learn to RP here.
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I'll tell you whats OC, a GM freezing and levitating 30 players, then letting them all drop at once, killing many of them. THAT is ooc.
Nah, thats laanx, he likes to kill people who anger him, and dueling in his plaza angers him, nuff said... Fight in the plaza and be estinguished by the wrath of a god whom no mortal can rival.
The cross bows and bows crap is really off topic yes cross bows exist in yliakum its not as difficult of a comtraption as you may think... but even if you don't buy the fact that crossbows don't exist in yliakum, they still have glyphs, and everyone knows from first hand experiance a guard is more powerful then the best of warriors.
Duel in the plaza and..
-Lannx will smite you for sheding blood in his city
-The guards will lock you up
Nuff said.
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If you dont care what i have to say why are you responding to my posts?
Because you clutter the thread with irrelevant stuff.
This thread isn't about what is implemented and what isn't.
This thread is a question aimed at role-players, or otherwise people who know anything about it. What you posted so far works as nothing else than misleading information.
Sorry, you have absolutely no notion whatsoever of the capabilities or lack thereof of a single guard tower and one guard on foot(by winch gate). Your lack of knowledge wrt this matter is mind blowing. But please do, continue to teach me all about security and military capabilities.
(what a surprise, a FLAME FEST!)
Bye
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Bye
Thank you o/
@Kaityra: Planeshift will never be split into seperate servers. And most certainly there won't be a PvP one. This game isn't aimed at duelers. It's aimed at role-players. As the time passes, the development of PS will (hopefully) make it more visible.
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Bye
Please don't come back anytime soon :)
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Valorius, its not a flame fest, its trying to establish WHY people shouldn't duel in the plaza, Because... its horrible RP, plain and simple, no one is Attacking you, from what i read its more 'disagreeing' and then stating 'Why'
Wether or not guards can control a crowd is irrelivant, this is a beta mmorpg and although guards don't run around arresting people like they no doubt will, to stay in a realm of what Hydlaa is, there should still be that healthy respect of fear...
pff and if not that, laanx can always enforce his will by zapping people ;)
Please don't come back anytime soon :)
well that was kinda mean :-\
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Greetings!
@Kaityra: Planeshift will never be split into seperate servers. And most certainly there won't be a PvP one. This game isn't aimed at duelers. It's aimed at role-players. As the time passes, the development of PS will (hopefully) make it more visible.
Well, I'm not into PvP, so I like it as it is. But there will always be players who would like to test their character skills against others and these players will always complain how bad PvP is supported by this game. It will go on and on ...
Either these gamers find a PS-server which will fulfill their needs or they have to find another game that supports PvP to their liking. I don't see more options for them.
With kind regards
Kaityra
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Quote from: Valorius Rageway on 09 July 2007, 18:02:11
Quote from: Draklar on 09 July 2007, 17:55:33
That's why the weapon was despised so much. When you're surrounded by a group of people, each of whom can kill you with but a trigger of their finger, it's downright stupid to attack.
A) Youre not surrounded, B) you have far more firepower than a guy with a crossbow if youre a mage. Arrow spell goes through walls. And then there's meteors...
Who says the guards don't have mages, too? :whistling:
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I have seen good fight scenarios played out in the plaza before, although nearer to the fountain. Amazingly enough, they combined roleplay and dueling mechanics in a believable manner as part of a story involving the characters. A story that all of these players cooperated on. It was a short fight, and to the point, it did not run over into the area of the smithy nor disturb anyone.
The point about not fighting in the plaza is just one of courtesy. The point about not fighting there, because it is in the middle of the busiest area of the city, is just a basic reason. Not a reason that would hold up to the hair-splitting tedious debate that every single bit of minutiae about the game is subject to on these forums. It's just better, and more respectful to other characters to do it elsewhere. I would also not advise anyone to hold their breath for a second server, people should work together to make Laanx a good server for everyone.
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or they have to find another game that supports PvP to their liking.
Sounds good to me :P
eldoth: There's role-play and pseudo role-play. People who duel on the plaza more often than not do the latter.
If people would get away with dueling on the plaza, more guards would be appointed to patrol it. Simple as that.
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My point about that fight was that it was an exception, rather than the rule. Fighting should occur away from the plaza as a general rule. As for role-play and pseudo-roleplay, that sounds like the subject of a different tedious hair-splitting thread.
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I think the idea is that he is replying so gullible people don't take your ideas whole heartedly on board. Our CHARACTERS do think the guards are coming to get them. Its the PLAYERS that don't. Hence bad roleplay. There could be a million guards for all you know.
This is a RP game. Not a PvP game. Find a PvP game or learn to RP here.
Why would everyone's character think that the guards were coming for them? If true RP is encouraged then there would be possibility of very agile and cunning criminals, just as in real life, just as there were in medieval times. What if "our CHARACTER" was one of these? Or is all RP just meant to be a "hiya/social" network?
In answer to the Drah's original question (and as has been dispersed throughout this thread) I think that the reason for "no dueling" in the plaza is an ooc reason, "because it's the busiest area". In reality, if a shady character wanted to "take someone out" they'd sneak up behind them, perhaps while they're busy at the smiith's furnace and stick a shiv in their side ... unless of course you're assuming that everyone in Yliakum plays by the "Warrior Code" of challenging someone to a duel and meeting them "in the arena at noon" ...
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I'll tell you whats OC, a GM freezing and levitating 30 players, then letting them all drop at once, killing many of them. THAT is ooc.
Nah, thats laanx, he likes to kill people who anger him, and dueling in his plaza angers him, nuff said... Fight in the plaza and be estinguished by the wrath of a god whom no mortal can rival.
I really dislike this... as it could be used to justify anything(including harassment) at all as being IC as long as it comes from a GM or dev(not that it will be used for it),and the less gods are present, more freedom of roleplaying different characters and perspectives will exist. Now with a god stomping everybody who goes "out of line"(I mean it from an IC perspective), it should be very uniform the type of citizen that will be alive in Yliakum, though it's realistically plausible that Talad would somehow restrain the destructive and murderous will of Laanx or the Settings would be centered around an onipotent and brutal tyranny.
@Valorius: As you are leaving PlaneShift, you should try a MMOFPS then, because they are obviously more fun for the PvP than any MMORPG.
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Nicana is correct, there did seem to be a different rulebook used for a GM event compared to the one used for everyone else.
(I never saw any GMs getting frozen, suspended in the air and killed, so yes... a rule for them and a rule for us... and in our case, we had many in numbers, they had what... one??!... ya gotta smile at that.)
Also, the claims of harrassment to avoid repurcussions for your IC and RP'd actions has been an annoyance lately. You have auto-decline, you have /ignore, yet some people choose to NOT use those functions and instead, almost conspiratorally try to use the GMs as tools to get people banned, which effectively becomes OOC harassment as a revenge for the IC harassment. Using the GMs in such a manner has happened at least twice now.
That's not to say it's the fault of the GMs, it's just some people know how to manipulate them.
Draklar: Valorius is posting because Valorius is aware of the reasons behind my original post and is effectively adding some background and context to it. I avoided giving that info away because I knew what to expect in regards to the responses, by pulling it out of it's context... I stood a better chance of getting opinions that I could use at a later date to justify my actions rather than knee-jerk reactions... and to some degree it was successful. ;)
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"Hydlaa has to withstand serious attacks from roaming beasts"
And these roaming beasts are as intelligent and tactical as 20-30 trained warriors many of whom can use magic, have armor, etc..? AND have an intelligence network behind them?? - I don't think so.
"If someone has crossbow aimed at you, it isn't very likely you'll think about how many bolts it has to shoot."
When a guard aims a crossbow at us, we can debate that point!
"Just because something isn't implemented, doesn't mean it doesn't exist RP-wise."
In that case there should be some sort of IC force with the capability of protecting Hydlaa properly. Anybody wish to step forward? --- If there are a number of guards in a certain location on a regular basis and we can't see them... CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL US?!?!
"Actually noone is missing your point, but it is you who mis ours"
50/50 I'd say!!!
"Valorius. If you walk into the middle of London"
Try London when it was the size of Hydlaa!!! - It was a lot different to modern London, so that comparison is already invalid.
"I think there should be a mob called 'Guard' that GMs can spawn anywhere in the hydlaa. These would attack anyone taking a combat stance. The GM could then take the role of lead guard which would lend to the RP immersion."
I couldn't agree more, the GMs should be empowered to repel people fighting on the plaza... it'd be fun for them and fun for the players and add to the RP all-round. Even if they made themselves damn near invincible, I'd still rather be driven out of town by the guards than frozen in the air by a GM and subsequently killed when released... that was even more ridiculous than any fighting on the plaza I've ever seen.
I SHOULD be killed by a guard... not fall from the damn sky. Pfffft!!!
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As for knowing the guards movements, if you knew the conversation I have with people in-character, you'd know that I (and Valorius and several other people) would make it our job to recognize the forces in Hydlaa (if we had some sort of indication from somewhere, would be helpful) and with that, assess what would need to be done to neutralize a threat from the guards there.
We don't have that liberty, we simply see what our characters can see and so, base everything off that... we don't "god-mod" imaginary guards into the game... we just use what our characters can see... because playing the characters role, immersing yourself... is what is encouraged. I'll immerse myself in PS.. but I'm not going to go on a fantastical journey imagining everything else because that heads towards god-modding and is unsubstanciated by any ACTUAL FACT that we as both players AND characters are made aware of.
It's almost like we're blamed for not imaging the guards that aren't actually there... how terrible of us!!! ;)
This is why I asked the question in my original post, Truthfully, I just wanted to know what would be a realistic size force to neutralize the guards so that if there were any further conflicts on that passed through the Plaza... we'd be able to keep it realistic.
Kaityra... you're effectively saying the two can't coincide... we're not pushing for segregation, we're looking for integration of both elements... the battle that passed through the Plaza involved only people willing to take part, we weren't running around challenging people or giving people grief directly... but were still treated as if we had.
"There could be a million guards for all you know."
There could be just the ones we see and the watch tower could be empty. There's no indication one way or another, so to make claims of "It's OOC 'cuz the guards would get you"... is actually YOUR INTERPRETATION... and it's not based on the physical evidence we have in-game... so it's also
supposition because there aren't any facts that ACTUALLY support it.
Earl, remember "Nobody cares what you say", that's actually attacking Valorius personally OOCly... as you even mentioned "Please don't come back anytime soon".. so yes, Valorius does get attacked personally.
This is why Valorius, myself and many others stay mute a lot of the time on various issues, because this is what we've come to expect.
A simple answer is... if the PvP doesn't involve you... ignore it... but WHOA... that's waaaay too much to ask. (the majority of the fighting on the plaza in our war was actually away from Harnquists... but let's use Harnquist's location as a strawman argument here too.. because that'll further make people look bad.)
"Who says the guards don't have mages, too?"
Who says they do, what books or evidence in-game is there to this effect?? - Based on the available evidence they don't... and yet this is more supposition/assumption-making.
"The point about not fighting in the plaza is just one of courtesy." - Enforceable by a ban... so it IS actually an unwritten OOC RULE enforced by GMs.
"or they have to find another game that supports PvP to their liking." - PS supports PvP to our liking, it's the GMs who assume there are rules where there aren't that cause us the headaches and use their interpretation of what is and isn't OOC as a rulebook... and with each GM comes a different perception and way of handling things... AGAIN... NOT a direct criticism of the GMs... JUST of the situation. (please understand that GMs... I'm not trying to take swipes at you really... you're in the most awkard position of anyone, I suspect.)
And... there's my head on the chopping block.
Chop away... :)
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In reality, if a shady character wanted to "take someone out" they'd sneak up behind them, perhaps while they're busy at the smiith's furnace and stick a shiv in their side ...
Of course. But we're not talking about people /me'ing assassination at the furnace.
We're talking about dueling at plaza.
"Hydlaa has to withstand serious attacks from roaming beasts"
And these roaming beasts are as intelligent and tactical as 20-30 trained warriors many of whom can use magic, have armor, etc..? AND have an intelligence network behind them?? - I don't think so.
If there's a band of people that:
1) commit a crime
2) in the middle of a town
3) well guarded town
4) wiping themselves with no regard of the above
Then I dare say a band of mindless horde storming walls of the said town will pose much greater danger.
Let alone horde that isn't quite mindless...
And in reference to fighting in the middle of a town... Intelligent and tactical? Are you joking? xD
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GMs don't assume there are rules. GMs have them via settings material - the same material that is available to everyone else in the game libraries.
Now I'd like to know who was recently banned for fighting in the plaza.
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Nobody, because really, we're good girls and boys... and when we get told off (even without being frozen and killed from falling!!!)... we try to accomodate.
We changed our MOTD's to warn players NOT to fight there and if anyone broke that rule we started screaming at them in guildchat, fearful of being killed by a GM, banned by a GM, etc.
And Karyuu... I'm not blaming GMs at all... They don't have the answers to EVERY question given to them... and they just try to do the best they can based on who's complaining about what... and that IS fair enough, I can't fault them for that.
As I said, they're in the more awkward position... ALWAYS caught in the cross-fire between players when things get out of hand.
The problem isn't the GMs, it's just that nobody KNOWS what is and isn't true in the game besides that which is apparent. Because we're supposed to imagine ("roleplay"?) a lot of it different people have different expectations of what the game holds and that we can also not see or have any indication of.
No matter how this thread turns out, I can assure you that my guildmates and myself are planning on ensuring future wars use the Plaza as a "safe-zone". We don't like the idea, we think it sucks... but we're trying to accomodate for those who are offended by a guild-war running through the Plaza.
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Nicana is correct, there did seem to be a different rulebook used for a GM event compared to the one used for everyone else.
(I never saw any GMs getting frozen, suspended in the air and killed, so yes... a rule for them and a rule for us... and in our case, we had many in numbers, they had what... one??!... ya gotta smile at that.)
Also, the claims of harrassment to avoid repurcussions for your IC and RP'd actions has been an annoyance lately. You have auto-decline, you have /ignore, yet some people choose to NOT use those functions and instead, almost conspiratorally try to use the GMs as tools to get people banned, which effectively becomes OOC harassment as a revenge for the IC harassment. Using the GMs in such a manner has happened at least twice now.
That's not to say it's the fault of the GMs, it's just some people know how to manipulate them.
Draklar: Valorius is posting because Valorius is aware of the reasons behind my original post and is effectively adding some background and context to it. I avoided giving that info away because I knew what to expect in regards to the responses, by pulling it out of it's context... I stood a better chance of getting opinions that I could use at a later date to justify my actions rather than knee-jerk reactions... and to some degree it was successful. ;)
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I couldn't agree more, the GMs should be empowered to repel people fighting on the plaza... it'd be fun for them and fun for the players and add to the RP all-round. Even if they made themselves damn near invincible, I'd still rather be driven out of town by the guards than frozen in the air by a GM and subsequently killed when released... that was even more ridiculous than any fighting on the plaza I've ever seen.
I SHOULD be killed by a guard... not fall from the damn sky. Pfffft!!!
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As for knowing the guards movements, if you knew the conversation I have with people in-character, you'd know that I (and Valorius) would make it our job to recognize the forces in Hydlaa (if we had some sort of indication from somewhere, would be helpful) and with that, assess what would need to be done to neutralize a threat from the guards there.
We don't have that liberty, we simply see what our characters can see and so, base everything off that... we don't "god-mod" imaginary guards into the game... we just use what our characters can see... because playing the characters role, immersing yourself... is what is encouraged. I'll immerse myself in PS.. but I'm not going to go on a fantastical journey imagining everything else because that heads towards god-modding and is unsubstanciated by any ACTUAL FACT that we as both players AND characters are made aware of.
PlaneShift is pre-alpha(According to what I readed, alpha means a software with all main planned features already developed, but yet to have its bugs fixed), and there is very little information on how should the outcome of such event happen, and anyway, those towers descriptions say there are "rumors" about guards using them and as pointed out, it requires some real imagination to claim that everytime something happens there are guards there by a coincidence. From a testing perspective, there is nothing wrong on having a PvP game in the middle of the Plaza, as roleplay can only surpass technical limitations until a certain point, now if we treat PlaneShift as something unfinished we should play as if it was finished regarding the roleplay, then the wilderness still remains as an excellent place for warfare. On the other question, I think gods should be NPCs, not PCs, because roleplaying a god without getting the worse of one's egocentrism isn't something easy, too much power in one side means easeness of abuse on it(unless the one with it is really responsable), and impotency on the other, and as I said before, it can justify anything a GM does as being IC, and I think GMs should worry less about having overpowered characters to interact in game(there are some who do that, I won't give names). Having the undefeatable uber dude won't make things fun at all for anybody, being a GM doesn't mean that one's character should never "lose" in game, but it seems a sad fact that the undefeatable GM PCs for events is a common choice now(or perhaps players are too afraid to go against them) and it only makes things highly linear and predictable. If it is to deal with OOC problems, an OOC solution would be better than a poorly-written IC action. The question of people going too much for GMs also has many things to do with the "not wanting to lose" syndrome(forgetting that it is your character and not you who loses) that doesn't exist in a Pen and Paper RPG, where if your character dies in the hands of a villain, he is usually dead forever, and a good GM won't punish the player behind the "evil" character who did that.
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GMs don't assume there are rules. GMs have them via settings material - the same material that is available to everyone else in the game libraries.
I think that it's more the "law" that's being questioned rather than "settings rules" (i.e. the law in Hydlaa says there's to be no fighting in the Plaza. We know it's physically/settings possible)
... and Draklar ... we're talking about "fighting in the plaza" ... why, when it comes to RP you can see a thousand guards but not the opportunity to shiv someone?? is it only your RP that counts?
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Why are you questioning a law, Nicana? It makes perfect sense that fighting be made illegal in a central plaza of a city that is called a capitol of the first level. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you - can you further clarify your position?
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I don't think Nicana is questioning the law, just observing that it is being questioned. (and ICly ignored by some)
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I feel compelled to defend my views.
"Valorius. If you walk into the middle of London"
Try London when it was the size of Hydlaa!!! - It was a lot different to modern London, so that comparison is already invalid.
I meant comparatively in the fact that it is the biggest city and has the best law enforcement. London didn't have anywhere near the liberal stand point and organised higher achy as the Hyldaa, which obviously does have a good guard force because its built like a military barracks.
"There could be a million guards for all you know."
There could be just the ones we see and the watch tower could be empty. There's no indication one way or another, so to make claims of "It's OOC 'cuz the guards would get you"... is actually YOUR INTERPRETATION... and it's not based on the physical evidence we have in-game... so it's also
supposition because there aren't any facts that ACTUALLY support it.
My point is more that your character doesn't know how many there are and you should RP it as such.
Now if its the heat of battle and your characters wouldn't give a second thought to the guard force then I think it's fair enough. It would be a stupid planned attack though. But if what you did made sense RP wise, considering what your, I assume, Intelligent characters, would have done with the guard situation in mind then its the games fault and not yours. The GMs could have taken a better course of action.
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Nicana: Care to explain how does shiving someone go along with this?
If there were, say, 50 combattants... would the guards realistically be able to do much?
Because as far as I remember that was what we were answering and that's what we were confronted on.
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Drah: Understandable, it's good to play evil characters sometimes. I think the point of people debating with you, however, is that to play an evil character means understanding that there are consequences for murdering someone in a public place, and in plain sight. So long as you do your shady business in a location that seems like it would not have any patrols, you should be alright. And if you don't, and give someone the sharp end of your weapon where others are around, it makes no sense at all to stick around and pretend as though nothing has happened, or that no one saw anything because there are no NPC guards within a foot of your character.
But the argument of "It's not in the game yet therefore it doesn't exist" is IMO ludicrous. Might as well ignore that there are other levels in Yliakum, rivnaks, Octarchs, etc. You have to use your imagination and common sense every now and then.
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I think that it's more the "law" that's being questioned rather than "settings rules" (i.e. the law in Hydlaa says there's to be no fighting in the Plaza. We know it's physically/settings possible)
Remember, it is IC law. "Common law" in Yliakum is roleplayed. Those who break this law are to be scolded in a roleplaying manner ... if they don't understand the common law, they obviously don't understand this game. And those who scold them out-of-character, don't either.
I am sure you remember how we roleplayed to ban the Outlaws out of the cities where they constantly broke the law. At least those who understood that it was a roleplay.
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is the law , No Fighting in Hydlaa, the result of attitudes expressed over time by hydlaa citizens throughout hydlaas history? or just an idea that a handfull of decision makers think is suitable, so suitable these same decision makers employ others, called GMs to enforce the idea on the imagination of PS players, as well as manipulate their in-game actions.
Is there a story relating to PS history that explains why violence in the plaza is frowned on any more than in any other area of yliakum?
Is there a point in time where the people who make up the community of hydlaa actually have a say in its common laws, or are they always going to be handed to them?
If violence in the plaza was such an issue and bearing in mind that it probably happens daily, why isn't there mechanics in-game that prevents it at all?
i know developers always say they are busy busy busy, but usually if ps has a problem or bug that is an issue, it gets attention before other ideas do.
Why after so many releases, can violence ocur there?
The only answer i could think of was to add to the feeling of reality, but this didn't make sense to me, when i remembered how many times the sense of reality in-game had been destroyed for me, through the attempted enforcement of PS rules, that like all rules are open to interpretation.
But now i'm wondering, .......are PS rules open to interpretation???
And do these rules evolve with the community that grows alongside the developing game, or against it?
probably all stupid questions, but thats how my head works.........Ok, target is ready(me) .....time to attack!!
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Something called morals is behind the idea of not killing each other. We CAN be attack each other, but we have to accept that the punishment for such is not implemented so you have to RP it. Okay?
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I think ereale is right.
We need ingame mechanics fitting the setting, before actually expecting players to follow it.
There's one simple solution. Let's remove PvP feature altogether \o/
I think that would be a nice (lack of) feature that could simulate fear of breaking law and characters having (*gasp*) sense of morality.
I may sound sarcastic, but I'm not. After participating in this thread I really have to pull back my opinion that there's nothing wrong with a bit of PvP. Role-players will do with /me anyway.
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"I meant comparatively..."
Comparitively, Hydlaa is tiny in comparison still... if we're being realistic.
"My point is more that your character doesn't know how many there are and you should RP it as such."
My point is that I play as my character, I see what my character sees, I immerse myself in my character and it's environment (and as a player I do make an effort to try to find solid information that I can use within roleplay)... I don't go assuming or "godmodding" things that aren't evident.. into existence. I thought generally, making stuff up without any solid indications would potentially cause conflict with the world of Planeshift... and I don't think I'm unreasonable in taking that stance.
"Now if its the heat of battle and your characters wouldn't give a second thought to the guard force then I think it's fair enough."
THANK YOU.. we were in the middle of a war involving 4 guilds. It wasn't a planned attack though... it was just a case of the war passing-through the plaza. We even tried to move things towards the Arena but noticed the opposition sneaking up behind... as soon as they fired their first arrow, we retaliated... and then seconds later... we all found ourselves frozen.
Karyuu, regarding "there are consequences for murdering someone in a public place, and in plain sight." - and I'm NOT arguing with you here, just seeking clarification...
With this being at a time of war, what are the rules regarding such an event and how the laws pertain to warring guilds, retaliation, defense, etc.? -- I'm not disputing you, I just want to know whether a guild-war would be a mitigating circumstance and whether those reasons (retaliation / defense) would be a consideration or not?
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Draklar... even many who enjoy RP would leave if the option of PvP was completely removed... Guild-War functions were implemented for a reason, because people like the option to engage in conflict... like it or not, it's true.
People fight every day, but it seems you live in some utopia were any form of conflict is unrealistic or should somehow be impossible by magical forces that prevent it... is that realistic? is that the way to push Planeshift?
"simulate fear of breaking law" ... no, it would BE, not even simulate... the end of Planeshift as a fun or exciting game. --- Hacking at mobs is not exciting, and every other form of "excitement" (from some peoples perspective) besides battle is typically the sort of thing that could be carried out in an IRC chat room. I guess in Planeshift... nobody can "live for war" or be blood-thirsty from your perspective.
We're not talking about people going around challenging new players and bullying people... we're talking about four consenting guilds engaging in war... but if you had your way, you'd spoil that fun.
A slightly less unusual request... would be to make the game mechanics stop fighting in the plaza altogether and a slightly more preferred AND realistic option would be to either have NPC guards that could attack people who fight there.. OR... let the GMs have some FUN... become guards and repel any forces that fight on the plaza. -- If they're late in coming... they're "Shadow Squadron" guards from the Bronze Doors (and that's why it took them time to respond).
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Thanks for clarifying Drah, it's a lot easier to understand your point now. Unfortunately you're not going to find the answer to this from anyone that's not on the settings team - so why not try to send Xillix and Jeraphon a PM with your question? If you're looking for an official response, a forum thread like this isn't going to achieve the best results. More often than not, developers avoid stepping into something that looks like a bee hive with players passionately arguing amongst each other. So if you have a question on something, I would recommend you get in contact with a dev directly.
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Regarding to drah's original post (yet most of the other posts were flames about what's implemented or not and about what one knows irl or not and so on - no hard feelings, guys, but read the thread as a whole again and you'll notice the same)
Fights at plaza are, of course, not always ooc, there have been fights directly at harns shop being totally ic with a reason for the fight
just giving an example: dermorian lords enslaving enkis, enkis were hunted, got to decide to get enslaved freely or get enforced to it. we all know that enkis are as proud as dwarfs, so hardly an enkis let them enslave them without defending theirselves -> fight -> enki got beaten and enslaved.
this is just one example, i am sure there have been a lot of other examples.
Some fights are OOC all over, no rp behind, nothing just a plain challange. (to stay neutral on this matter i won't look up my logs to prove that :P)
about the army of 50 fighting at the plaza: guards or not is not the matter, not at all. one can't tell me that if an army of 50 comes right up to the plaza and wars against another guild everyone else would keep doing their own businesses. peasants probably will get scared and run away until it is safe again. lawful guilds probably would try to interact in one or another way. guilds based on fightings (guarding guilds, rangers, warriors etc etc [not meaning the guild names here :P]) will most probably jump in and either join one side or enforce the peace on plaza, depending on what the guild is about. but who, seriously, is going to tell me that people would just ignore it and keep doing their stuff? thats like telling me (getting back to london :P) that if 2 groups of hooligans would just fight eachother somewhere in central london everyone else would just continue the shoping tour, the sightseeing tour or whatever. i for myself care for my life and would most probably run to somewhere i won't get attacked by them (by accident?)
about the gm reaction i have read about here (wasn't at plaza when that happened): i think the sliding up and freezing was a way to make you stop for a moment to listen to the gm's (noone can tell me they'd reply on tells while being in a fight :P) and after releasing it most probably was a mistake of the gm to not teleport you down again - gm's also are only humans, don't we all make mistakes from time to time?
[at the gm's, feel fre to correct me here if my point of view is wrong]
about the war these guilds had: it may have started ic, but mate, it ended in a mess. i haven't seen the beginning, just a bit of it at plaza and then a lot of it in dr while checking my mules for an item - what i saw there, was very much ooc in my opinion, not to blame anyone i blame both: both sides did it, i watched it for a while and what i saw: enemy spawn in dr, x people around slaying him right away, if he made it out of the entrance hall he was found at the dr spawn just a few moments later -> got slain again right away at the spawn point.
it is, in my opinion, very much ooc to wait at a spawn point and kill someone right away before he even gets the chance to react - also imho it's senseless to war down there, since it's the realm of the dead, one is already dead when he enters the realm, killing the dead? :P [again, this is just my opinion]
about this thread: drah made up a good question, he was actually asking for the opinion of the community and maybe also of the devs and gm's, yet the whole thread turned into a total flame war. i wonder why you can't just simply read a thread, answer it in a polite way with your opinion and check back for replies? why you have to insult eachothers? (yet i dislike valorius and she knows that, but i won't call her off of the forum for telling her opinion. she may have stressed her experiences from RL too much, but is that actually a reason to call her off? she may or may not have missed the point, is that a reason to call her off? she may or may not have insulted you, but aren't you smart enough to oversee such and answer neutral? if you think this are reasons for calling her off, then please think about yourself - because you did the same. if you're not smart enough to oversee the insults and answer neutraly, then why even wasting your time with an answer to her? *grin* i know what i am talking about - i learned from my faults)
resume: this thread should be closed by a moderator to prevent further flaming
PS: don't we all play the game to have a great time and fun? do we have to trouble eachother on the forums? really? think about it please.
PS2: if you feel offended by any of my comments, feel free to ignore them - i didn't address you directly :P (and i mean all of you, not single persons)
greetings, cebot
PS3:
More often than not, developers avoid stepping into something that looks like a bee hive with players passionately arguing amongst each other. So if you have a question on something, I would recommend you get in contact with a dev directly.
A pity tho, really. Devs could easily stop these arguings by just stepping in and giving a clear answer about the given question :)
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A pity tho, really. Devs could easily stop these arguings by just stepping in and giving a clear answer about the given question :)
That's true, but devs aren't on the forums 24/7 to answer questions before some threads turn into bee hives. So it's up to you guys to chill yourselves out sometimes.
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That's true, but devs aren't on the forums 24/7 to answer questions before some threads turn into bee hives. So it's up to you guys to chill yourselves out sometimes.
/me smiles at karyuu "hope they calmed by ready my long post :P"
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As a GM, I'm all for supporting evildoers do their IC bad deeds all over the stalactite. Feel free to PM me or contact me on IRC if you have a plot in the making and need some advice or clearance to make sure you are not breaking any rules or to prevent potential OOC conflicts. I do not have all the answers but I can certainly ask around for you and let the team know what you are planning so your RP can unfold with good results.
This means you might need to compromise certain aspects of your RP in order to fit game settings/game rules and whatnot but, having experienced this before becoming a GM, I find that all player events that are run through GMs/Devs find better outcomes and less unnecessary OOC discussions. Note that not all Devs. or GMs may be able to help you due to other responsibilities they may have but I will do my best to help out, so feel free to try me first.
Same applies with goodie-goodies who want to have a goodie-goodie player event, btw.
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Hi,
First of all: I loved the battle! I think these 'events' make playing PS a little bit more exciting. At least it is better than training cw at level 90 or leveling black smith!
it is, in my opinion, very much ooc to wait at a spawn point and kill someone right away before he even gets the chance to react - also imho it's senseless to war down there, since it's the realm of the dead, one is already dead when he enters the realm, killing the dead? :P [again, this is just my opinion]
I agree in DR we went to far... especially the spawn killing. Drah I think you killed me like 20 spawns one after the other ;-)
Cebot, did you read the books in the citadel? I think it said that you aren't dead if you are in the DR...
Cheers and let the chaos spread the worlds
Sliss, Chaos prophet
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Indeed, the DR thing was where it went too far.. (As someone mentioned before, it was an attempt to make our enemies become POWs but still.. it was excessive.) --- In future we're going to ensure there are terms of victory clearly in place and until we know any better... probably treat DR and the plaza as 'safe-zones'.
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A pity tho, really. Devs could easily stop these arguings by just stepping in and giving a clear answer about the given question :)
There was a clear answer at the very beginning. There are more guards than what can be seen. They are all around and patrolling.
It was a simple decision from certain people to deny this information and argue against it.
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There was a clear answer at the very beginning. There are more guards than what can be seen. They are all around and patrolling.
It was a simple decision from certain people to deny this information and argue against it.
Haha. Clear answer, right. "The imaginary guards are what's stopping them!" I'm not saying you're wrong or right...but in no way can you call that clear (or a way to make a convincing argument).
I'm sorry I missed most of this thread, there's so many of your posts that would have been fun to pick apart. Damn you slip n slide! ...oh well.
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but in no way can you call that clear
You know, I believe I just did.
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but in no way can you call that clear
You know, I believe I just did.
Haha. See what I mean? You're fantastic Draklar...I thought you were trying to convince someone of your point, not make grandiose statements and have no way to back them up.
Let me know next time you're going to try and argue with someone. It'll be funsies.
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Back them up? Oh sure.
The question was about clear answer relating to setting.
You know? Like that we're in a giant stalactite despite the stalactite not being developed visual-wise?
The question was meant to bring forth an answer that could clarify how things should be role-played.
As such the answer was crystal-clear. There are more guards than what can be perceived visually. Setting-wise anyway. Not yet implemented, since PS isn't quite complete game. For all the time you spent here, Kiern, you should know that. Or maybe not, considering you don't actually play...
How about less attempting to be witty, and more actually being?
And I think you made a false assumption I tried to convince you. You don't even care, so why do you want me to explain anything to you?
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As such the answer was crystal-clear. There are more guards than what can be perceived visually. Setting-wise anyway. Not yet implemented, since PS isn't quite complete game. For all the time you spent here, Kiern, you should know that. Or maybe not, considering you don't actually play...
How about less attempting to be witty, and more actually being?
And I think you made a false assumption I tried to convince you. You don't even care, so why do you want me to explain anything to you?
There we go.
I understand completely the setting is not entirely implemented, because back when I was involved in the game, there was none! (and I did actually take part in the community then)
Yes, there are things that assumed to be there, but when you say that there are guards who are SUPPOSED to be there, how do we know that is true? Why would there be tons of guards patrolling everywhere? Maybe Hydlaa is renowned for it's lack of good security? The place seemed pretty shoddy to me last time I was there. Big cities tend to be. The fact is, the Planeshift setting leaves a lot open for discussion.
Anyways that's getting off topic, my issue was more dealing with the way you presented your argument, not the game itself. Since, you're right, I don't play the game and the only statements I can make from that are from a theoretical standpoint from what I've read.
There have been (very few) times we have agreed on certain topics, and you had no problem with my posts then. That seems to be the trend, unsurprisingly.
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Yes, there are things that assumed to be there, but when you say that there are guards who are SUPPOSED to be there, how do we know that is true?
If people duel on plaza often, more patrols will be sent there. Also, as I said several times there's a sentry tower (right next to the plaza) with guards in it (and no, it's not a rumour. Rumour is there are underground tunnels that allow the guards to move between military objects -- not for you)
Next, with forces like Shadow Squadron being set all around the Dome, it's not very likely town of such importance as Hydlaa would have absolutely no possibility of finding out about organised plans to fight. Either way I don't think they would have problems with people who actually believe it's a good tactical move to fight within city walls, where they have to face yet another opposition in form of well organised city guards... Basically on their territory.
At this point it's safe to assume the city guards aren't a bunch of brainless figures (even if they have problems with understnading lots of phrases :) ) and people can either agree to what's commonly accepted (and that should be displayed by the first few posts), or go to the Settings Team, but that isn't likely to give any results as:
1) much stuff is still top secret.
2) x-man is already annoyed with people here
3) most of the folks there are too busy to answer questions about things which should be downright obvious.
Maybe Hydlaa is renowned for it's lack of good security?
It isn't. Good example of town renowned for lack of security is Ojaveda. You even have rogues running about there. Inside problems cause lockout of security, other than goodwill of the passing adventurers.
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Ok fair enough.
But you're saying that, because of this, people would not get into fights here? It's such a high-traffic area it actually seems to be the most logical place for fights to break out. Especially because if this was in fact reality, guards would have a much harder time breaking up the miscreants due to the mass quantity of bodies. Especially if there are a lot of them (mobs anyone?). People are stupid. They do not generally take everything into account before throwing down. It's just what happens.
And should guards, legally, be able to just kill the people causing the problems? If not, then they would have a much harder time breaking things up but it makes sense. You can't just massacre people causing problems. Because on a day-to-day basis they are (generally) normal people who add to the community.
Then again, maybe killing someone isn't thought of as too bad in a world where no one actually "dies". But then why care if people fight?
Eh. I think I've talked myself into a circle. That's all from me (your welcome). Night.
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/me smiles at karyuu "hope they calmed by ready my long post :P"
/me tends to ignore too long posts, beause it is too hard to spot the few important facts in the heap of emotions, flames, or similar distracting content - I'm not a native english speaker.
Once again:
I enjoy roleplayed fights, if they have some minimum IC reason.
As much I hate players who slay down people out of boredom.
How about changing the XML/CFG files so that the default option will be "auto decline"? And even much more important: How about changing them so that the double-click on players defaults to "look at", instead of "challenge" or "trade" or whatever it is at the moment?
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According to the decree, murder is mostly considered a high crime because many people are lost in the Death Realm. Also, there are ways to cause permanent death. It's only good thing not available to players >.>
Fights are possible, yes. But as has already been said (by Nikodemus, I think), when role-playing, people should take into account the activity of guards. Run out of town, hide somewhere, assume being caught. Instead it's a common activity observed in game, that a dueler either remains in the spot where he killed someone and just chats with other people, or goes to the most visible place possible and stays there.
I've seen much more reasonable duels within Hydlaa's walls. Recently I've seen one in a back alley, or spot which isn't very likely to be patrolled by guards. But there are also duels appearing to be downright stupid... Like those that happen right next to a captain of (north?) city guards.
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As long as ruthless players (yes, OOC) don't need to fear any consequences due to the game mechanics (they can decline, they can walk through other chars), why should they stop slaying others whereever they like?
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I think to ASSUME there are over 50 guards present in or near the plaza, when there are in fact only a few physical ones scattered around the plaza, is a big as in any IC RPing that i would take part in. Im all for IC RP, but to just make things up out of thin air, is not IC as far as I see it. Most of the comments made about the numerous guards, were also implying that the bad deed done, was a single handed murder, not a WAR.
Now, OOC, i don't know of a single war in history, that when it entered a city, everyone stopped fighting when they got to the centre of town because people were smithing nearby. A WAR will go were it wills, and clear a path in its wake. So it would have been extremely OOC for me to chase my enemy (the other army) all the way to the plaza, to just stop and not slay them, or defend myself, whichever the case at the time may have been.
IC, my character has not ONCE, seen a guard patrolling the plaza itself, nor seen a sign prohibiting fighting, so why would he not fight there in a time of war? Why would he think to himself that 50 guards will surround me if i slay this person here, when he has never seen ONE guard in that plaza itself, nor ever been warned by a guard, or a resident of Hydlaa, that it is not acceptable. It would also be OOC for him to take a message from the guilds MOTD that says dont fight there. So if we want things IC, lets truly be IC.
I agree with those that have said that a GM should take over a guards NPC to stop the fighting, the best idea that has come from this thread IMO. But, back to the numbers. If we are truly expected to pretend that 1 guard is to simulate 50, then how many were in fact in our army of 10 or so characters, by my calculations, that would have made our army 500 strong, an impossible task for any guard 50 strong. If we go higher to lets say 1000 guards, lets make the same assumption, that makes our army 10000 strong, that would wipe out the entire city.
I also agree with the OOC DR spawn killing, i didnt like the idea from the start, but given game mechanics, how else are we to imprison our enemy and make them yield? I suggested in another thread, that we perhaps should have a spell, that makes the mage able to hold a person, even if only for 10secs (gotta make the mage work for it), this would then allow us to take prisoners of war, and keep the fight out of the DR, and furthermore the city. Also if character spawn points were not within the city walls, this would then also make it more possible to keep the war outside the city. But the way things are set up, you spawn in the city, so to keep it out of the DR, the fighting would be in the city. It would be ridiculous to expect an enemy to respond to "/me takes so and so hostage" it just wouldnt happen, and i would be extremely disappointed if it did.
So lets face the facts, WAR within the city will happen, and to keep it out of one area, would be extremely OOC. Why is it that if fighting in the plaza is against the law, fighting anywhere else within the city walls isnt? If 1 person was to commit a murder, then yes, if the murder was pre-meditated, that would be crazy, especially if you stayed there and not ran. But if in the case of my character, if I were to kill 1 person, it would be because of provocation, and I wouldnt say, come to arena so I can kill you, again, OOC.
But I ask this.... If so many are against fighting a WAR in the plaza, why did no one step up to stop it? The war was fun, you should try it sometime, and it was a 1 day event, if you dont like it, step up to stop it IC, or run for your life, but if I am to stay IC, in future WARS, I will not stop at the plaza, I will chase down my enemy and kill him, wherever he stands, that is what a WAR is.
Killian Therin (Lost Souls)
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According to the decree, murder is mostly considered a high crime because many people are lost in the Death Realm. Also, there are ways to cause permanent death. It's only good thing not available to players >.>
Wrong, it is a bad thing war doesn't bring permanent death, though it's a world design decision so it's not going to change. If death was absolute, people would think twice before going into PvP with others and levelling as it would be a great deterrent to constant wars(If there would be any PvP in this case, it would be mostly the average people brawl instead of duelling of warriors then) . Of course it would have some disadvantages, but I remain as a supporter permanent death in RPGs. In many of the pen and paper RPGs there is permanent death, and also I know some few great roleplayers in PlaneShift that decided to assume their characters will never escape the DR and made their deaths permanent, though they are the exception to the rule. I know it's a question of newbie-friendliness, and I know that with the yet existing bugs that provoke death it won't be possible to think about it a all now, but perhaps then, there could be a permanent death where even death(and Cthullu :P) can die, perhaps if your character dies in the DR, it is definitive then, and perhaps there could be a chance to become lost there forever(as the law considering murder as a high crime mentions). Just remember, the more death becomes endangering and final to a character, more seriously people will treat it on roleplay and less futile combat will exist. I hope this post won't be fully dismissed in a shower of flames.
As long as ruthless players (yes, OOC) don't need to fear any consequences due to the game mechanics (they can decline, they can walk through other chars), why should they stop slaying others whereever they like?
Because my friend is a GM. :whistling:
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As long as ruthless players (yes, OOC) don't need to fear any consequences due to the game mechanics (they can decline, they can walk through other chars), why should they stop slaying others whereever they like?
Oh, they can do it all they want. No one will punish them for such behaviour. Unless it's downright annoying to everyone around, they're free to do as they wish. We don't have any RP-enforcement.
However, if that is the case they shouldn't be coming around spreading excuses for their ooc behaviour, should they?
@wither: who exactly needs more than 50 guards when the people engaged in "WAR" are wiping one another to start with? They can easily take on what survivors are left.
And your character has seen lots of guards patroling the area. It's you, as player, who hasn't.
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@wither: who exactly needs more than 50 guards when the people engaged in "WAR" are wiping one another to start with? They can easily take on what survivors are left.
And your character has seen lots of guards patroling the area. It's you, as player, who hasn't.
Sorry to say, but not in all wars are all warriors wiped out, there are alot of wars where 1 side is completely overcome. And I'm happy to meet your character ingame with my character, so that he can have all the 100s of supposed guards pointed out to him.
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If you are sorry to say something, don't say it.
wither... Get a hold of the history of role-playing. Then argue about it. Start with theatre.
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I havent seen any theatre around Hydlaa mate, so for now, Ill just stay IC, since no one knows my character better than I, except himself.
There is no changing my point of view on this, so I will stick to what I said in my original post, and stay TRULY IC, rather than plucking ideas out of thin air, and if there are consequences, I will take them, as long as they are IC also.
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I haven't read the entire thread so I'm probably just repeating what someone else said.
Dueling in cities is prohibited by Yliakum Law, this means anyone who does it, is a criminal. If there are witnesses they'll be hunted down by guard. If there were no witnesses and due to bodies disappearing towards the Death Realm ... well they'll get away with it most likely. At least until the victim eventually returns from the realm of the dead.
In this thread I see two extremes coming forward mostly ...
The extreme of there being no enforcement of the law and thereby ignoring realism and common sense.
Or
The extreme of the guards breathing down your neck with every misstep you make.
Reality teaches us that extremes usually fall apart in different shades of grey. So in a good, realistic RP one should keep the Guards into account but you don't have to assume that the guards are allpowerful, they're just characters like ours.
Of course when one goes against the entire government and uses a city as a field of battle ... well you're not only painting a big neon arrow over your guild's head saying 'criminals" but you're also likely to have to deal with the government's army on top of the detachment of city guards. Sure you could maybe hold the city siege for a short bit but eventually your guild would be completely destroyed. No guild in-game is capable of fighting the government and winning at this moment.
In the case of the Outlaws, they can still fight the government and live up to their name but they'll have to live a life of running and hiding from any official armed force and risk being spotted by good citizens.
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The extreme of the guards breathing down your neck with every misstep you make.
Huh?
Fights are possible, yes. But as has already been said (by Nikodemus, I think), when role-playing, people should take into account the activity of guards. Run out of town, hide somewhere, assume being caught. Instead it's a common activity observed in game, that a dueler either remains in the spot where he killed someone and just chats with other people, or goes to the most visible place possible and stays there.
I've seen much more reasonable duels within Hydlaa's walls. Recently I've seen one in a back alley, or spot which isn't very likely to be patrolled by guards. But there are also duels appearing to be downright stupid... Like those that happen right next to a captain of (north?) city guards.
I thought that's the stance we're taking?
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Like I said, haven't read the entire thread, only the first couple pages and in there I mainly saw extreme stances being taken :P Anyways good to see that we're on the same level, ignore my post then.
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I thought that's the stance we're taking?
If this is your stance, it is not relevant to this discussion, since this discussion is not using a single person killing another as an example. Perhaps you need to go back over the entire thread, as this whole discussion, is talking about a time of WAR, between 4 guilds, 2 vs 2, an army, against another army. If you expect an entire army to run away from a few guards, I dont see how that is IC.
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Recently I saw a newcomer I met just 10 minutes ago, who got killed by another player, and after I told her that he was new and surely only challenged in accident, she was so ambarrassed about it...
Is it too easy to challenge by accident, due to the default settings after the installation?
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Like I said, haven't read the entire thread, only the first couple pages and in there I mainly saw extreme stances being taken :P Anyways good to see that we're on the same level, ignore my post then.
Okay, I guess I can see that :P
Was mostly refering to the case when 50 people start fighting between one another.
Anyway, I would find the idea of city being overthrown by a powerful guild quite interesting. I just don't think it could be started by a guildwar in its center :P
Much more likely it would need to be started by shady characters taking out archers on the walls. Then the muscle dudes focusing on some strategic points (taking Jafecra as hostage?) Some thinking like that anyway. Still such guild would need to take into account the participation of other adventurers. Someone trying to free the captain and so on. Could make things quite interesting, if role-played out well :)
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Now I'm probably going to start to seem like im singling you out Draklar, but believe me, thats not my intention. Quite the opposite, I like some of your ideas in this last post... "Still such guild would need to take into account the participation of other adventurers."
This would be great, but it seems in the past, most guild wars are frowned upon by the so called "RPers" of Yliakum, which means, that any interaction from other "adventurers" is nil. Even if you write an entire novel IC, which would have to be posted on these forums, otherwise it would bore everyone before it even started, people still avoid guild wars like the plague, they seem to right away assume that its not IC enough. What they dont understand is, that the flare up of the war, has already been acted out IC, just cos said people were not present, they think its OOC.
As I said earlier, in my first post, it would have been great if another guild stepped in to our war, to cease fighting in the city centre, this would have been fantastically IC, but instead, people OOC'ly complain to GMs, and we end up with an OOC war, because the war has not travelled its natural path.
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Well. I had given up on this thread after a few pages back as I found that much of the discussion here didn't deserve a reply, but now that Zan came up and already mentioned some of the points, I'll reply. Take in mind I only read about 5 of the 6 pages this thread is made of currently.
For those who seem to be pro-fighting in Hydlaa and use a "there's only x guards!" argument, you seem to lack two things already mentioned by Draklar and Zan: and those are 1) imagination, which is required in a roleplaying game where the system is flawed and unfinished and 2) common sense.
If you can't see past the "fact" that there's only about 10 guards in all Hydlaa, you're just not roleplaying PlaneShift. You're roleplaying some other thing inside it, but not PlaneShift. The only thing you're doing to PlaneShift at that moment is you're playing it, not roleplaying it. That which you do could be defined as the reverse of godmodding, in which you simply refuse to accept anything that, even if supported by abstract concepts implemented in-game, isn't implemented in a way you can touch and feel.
You know what? From a concrete point of view PlaneShift is a mess. A simple question, why are doors to other Dsars closed in Ojaveda? Just because that's how the game state is? No. These things have roleplayed reasons and that's what it's all about. If you can explain the closing of the Dsars, then you are roleplaying. Because truth is there's no "plague" (or whatever IC reason in given for it), we're just roleplaying to fill in the holes of the current state of the game, if the way we fit that is with npc-given information, or even off-game received information, or just with the use of common sense, just depends on the situation.
In this situation, just a little bit of common sense would help. Think, you're doing a war inside the capital of all Yliakum. All Yliakum. There's no wonder we extreme this position: it's a whole lot of area. And from a strategical point of view, who the hell would fight in a place where they'd fight both their enemy and the guard? Yeah, you'd think about how many guards there'd be and even if they were a little amount, why the hell would you do it there? Because you feel like it and you don't care if just five more of your warriors die to the guards, what you really want is to fight your enemy there and then? Geesh.
Finally, I really laughed with the "Omg, a GM killed me in a terrible terrible way for me fighting there". Guess what the GM was telling you? No fighting in the Plaaza. And hey, he did it in a roleplay-like fashion, didn't he? It was Laanx that said it, that's an in-game thing. So, wither, for example, a realistic "IC", by your definition, reason for you not to fight on the Hydlaa Plaaza is because it is a sacred place for Laanx and he'll send you to the DR if you do.
Honestly, it's just barbaric to have people fight on the Plaaza. Even duels there are. If that's how your character is, good for you. Do it as you wish, even though it's quite normal you'll find people point the finger at you, you're roleplaying a part of the game that is flawed and so they'll pull to their side and you'll pull to yours. But I think it'd make more sense if you just would leave the plaaza. It isn't that hard to have battles somewhere else and you won't upset everyone who're just enjoying the plaaza by making it look they live in a chaotic society with no rules and no capacity of rule enforcement what-so-ever.
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I agree. Fighting in the plaza, or in any part of the city, is wrong for rp. Sensibly the guards would find you and you have to remember that not only are there a lot of guards but they have more advanced armor and weapons. You have to assume that even if your strong one of the guards would be able to match your strength. However I don't think just because you start to fight suddenly 20 guards will be surrounding you. So lets say you start a fight with someone else. You'd have to assume that within 10 to 15 minutes the guard would be about. Maybe one or 2 would appear at first. That should be enough to stop the fight and if no one is dead or majorly hurt then I doubt that you will just be put in jail ( I believe thats just for murder). Maybe though you have 3 more friends that come. That would give you maybe a little more time to fight before there are more guards. Also the fact that your fighting the guards back will mean that you'll most likely be arrested. However these couple more minutes could be used as time to escape instead of fight.
In the end you have to know that the guards are strong but they are also capable of dieing just like you (as in they are mortal). Make sensible actions. If you suddenly start a really big fight then know you'll most likely only have 5 minutes before the guard members surround you and the exits to Hydlaa. Try and make sensible decisions. Fighting in the Plaza isn't OOC but you can't go on four hours trying to kill someone. At max it should be 15 minutes of fighting between 2 people and even then they will most likely get caught. So if you want to fight someone either do it outside of Hydlaa or make it a hit and run because there won't be time to do much more if you plan to escape.
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I think that it's more the "law" that's being questioned rather than "settings rules" (i.e. the law in Hydlaa says there's to be no fighting in the Plaza. We know it's physically/settings possible)
Remember, it is IC law. "Common law" in Yliakum is roleplayed. Those who break this law are to be scolded in a roleplaying manner ... if they don't understand the common law, they obviously don't understand this game. And those who scold them out-of-character, don't either.
I agree fully.
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Just to add some "food for thought":
It's not only conceivable, but quiet realistic to imagine two lawless factions having a series deadly skirmishes in a larger war within the boundaries of large, well ordered cities. Often this involved paying local law enforcement and politicians to turn a blind eye.
Two examples that come to mind would be the Bowery Boys and Dead Rabbits, among other groups fighting very publicly in New York city in the 1850's, and the Northside and Southside gangs of Chicago (Bugs Moran and Al Capone) battling publicly during the prohibition days of the US. The two had very different outcomes. The first example eventually did end with law enforcement engaging everyone and killing pretty much all of the battling parties. The second ended in the St. Valentine's Day Massacre, which Capone won and ruled Chicago crime.
Ultimately, Capone was, as many know, prosecuted, not for killing, but for another crime --income tax evasion. Interestingly, the ultimate result of gang wars involving control of liquor sales was to change the laws and end prohibition in the United States.
So, while military strategists looking to wage war sanctioned by governments might find urban warfare untenable, petty thugs and other lowlife seem quite adept at having bloody battles in very large, well policed cities, while, at least for the short term, living with impunity.
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Anyway, I would find the idea of city being overthrown by a powerful guild quite interesting. I just don't think it could be started by a guildwar in its center :P
Much more likely it would need to be started by shady characters taking out archers on the walls. Then the muscle dudes focusing on some strategic points (taking Jafecra as hostage?) Some thinking like that anyway. Still such guild would need to take into account the participation of other adventurers. Someone trying to free the captain and so on. Could make things quite interesting, if role-played out well :)
It is an interesting idea and I'd even say it is something several of the current guilds would like to do. But first of all because of game mechanic limitations it's impossible to influence the government and secondly not even the biggest, baddest guild that PS has to offer now can challenge the government on it's own. The only real way to overthrow a government is by starting a revolution and getting the people on your side, just take the french revolution and following american revolution as an example.
Like I said, people can break the law, they can fight the government and the guards but they can't win. The best they'll be able to do is survive ... which a good criminal will manage.
This is where the appeal of RPing criminals lies for me ... you're always the underdog with most odds against you and you can never really win but every day you survive is a victory on it's own. Just staying out of the clutches of the guards and the people while scoring some occasional loot is the best a criminal can and should hope for.
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It But first of all because of game mechanic limitations it's impossible to influence the government and secondly not even the biggest, baddest guild that PS has to offer now can challenge the government on it's own. The only real way to overthrow a government is by starting a revolution and getting the people on your side, just take the french revolution and following american revolution as an example.
Because of game mechanics no guild has to take on the gov't. There is no gov't to take on unless some GMs show up to RP one (which is always fun). What's more- there are no archers on the wall, there aren't even bows (i personally will consider they day they're implemented to be the day they're 'invented'). There are ranged spells....but alas, there arent any guards on the walls to cast them. The only time ive ever been attacked from the Hydlaa wall was by a Onyx Dagger GM (yes- a BAD GUY), with arrows....whom i killed. Valorius has slain many GMs in many guises.
As far as guards(or GMs in general) having superior arms and armor, so does the US army. And where exactly has that gotten them in Iraq?
The US Army's technological and materiel superiority over the Iraqi/Al-Q insurgents- right now, IRL- is INFINITELY more prohibitive than what a criminal/guild/insurgency would face in PS. And yet, there is a vibrant, active, and deadly insurgency- even in Baghdad. It is simple FACTS like these that make some arguments on this thread look extremely naive and foolish. As for examples of places where combatants fight in the presence of a heavy guard presence: Night clubs, prisons, BAGHDAD. Want more examples?
PS: The American Revolution was first.
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Valorius, i thought you were going away? It was much better when you were gone >.> I think this topic needs to be locked :P The questions has long since been answered.
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and secondly not even the biggest, baddest guild that PS has to offer now can challenge the government on it's own.
I disagree there :devil: . Besides it doesn't take numbers to win a fight, they just help.
I think that it's more the "law" that's being questioned rather than "settings rules" (i.e. the law in Hydlaa says there's to be no fighting in the Plaza. We know it's physically/settings possible)
Remember, it is IC law. "Common law" in Yliakum is roleplayed. Those who break this law are to be scolded in a roleplaying manner ... if they don't understand the common law, they obviously don't understand this game. And those who scold them out-of-character, don't either.
I agree fully.
Yeah, thats totally true. Fighting in the Plaza should not be responded to OOCly. An IC response is needed. Possibly if people started yelling "I'm going to call the guard!" it would give people the warning/reminder they need and then most likely run away.
Like I said, people can break the law, they can fight the government and the guards but they can't win. The best they'll be able to do is survive ... which a good criminal will manage.
But that makes the game so unrealistic. Fighting Laanx and Talad and not being able to win makes sense. However the goverment is as able to die as we players are. I always thought it would be intresting if the GM's made something like that happen. Kinda like when those rogues took over Oja. A uprising started from NPC's and GM's and helped out by we the players.
As far as guards(or GMs in general) having superior arms and armor, so does the US army. And where exactly has that gotten them in Iraq?
The US Army's technological and materiel superiority over the Iraqi/Al-Q insurgents- right now, IRL- is INFINITELY more prohibitive than what a criminal/guild/insurgency would face in PS. And yet, there is a vibrant, active, and deadly insurgency- even in Baghdad. It is simple FACTS like these that make some arguments on this thread look extremely naive and foolish. As for examples of places where combatants fight in the presence of a heavy guard presence: Night clubs, prisons, BAGHDAD. Want more examples?
Oh and you make a good point there. Even with better weapons and armor someone smart would be able to fight back regardless. Fact is until the guards can actually appear and fight you back whatever happens is really in the hands of the player.
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Some food for thought:
From Hydlaa plaza it's approx:
15 seconds to the sewers,
30 seconds to the arena
20 seconds to the dungeons
45 seconds to either city gate
So anyone attempting to flee would have convenient and readily accessible escape routes in every direction from the plaza. Those would have to be some VERY fast acting guards if they wanted to catch anyone fighting at harns. And on top of it, there are no street lights.
Furthermore, if we are to pretend there are guards with (unimplemented) crossbows everywhere, including on the walls, then it is also neccesary to pretend there is a huge crowd of citizens and merchants packed into the square (and on the paths) at all the stands and shops that WOULD be in operation there. This would heavily obstruct sightlines and ready movement of reserve forces.
So either way, the guards task is untenable, to say the least. Street crime is very, very hard to stop. Even today with all our modern technology, in most 1st world cities in the world violent street crime is a very real problem.
I do not dispute that it's 'illegal' to kill at harns, i just think that the vast majority of the time, it would be unenforceable.
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I'll have to disagree with you Duraza, a well established government ... in fact the only well established government, the one and only government that controls everything which happens within the eight levels of Yliakum ... is not very easy to overthrow at all. People can die, sure, the guards can die and even the vigisimi and octarchs can die but the government is bigger than just a handful of people. Without doubt it has a hand in nearly everything going on in Yliakum, commands the largest military force, has plenty of informants, spies, a treasury bigger than we can all imagine and extremely influential people within it's ranks.
Something like that can't be overthrown easily, the best you could hope to do is work your way into the government and trying to pull as much power towards you as possible. Sadly that would go against the settings and can't be done with the current game mechanics. I wouldn't mind RPing it but I'm very sure that you'll get the opposition of loads of players as soon as you claim to have become a powerful vigesimi :P People become jealous quickly so I stay away from things like that.
Valorius .. I'm only going to say one thing, you're the only person I've ever met that calls themselves a good roleplayer and considers everything not implemented yet non-existent. I'd think about that if I were you. ::)
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Some food for thought:
From Hydlaa plaza it's approx:
15 seconds to the sewers,
30 seconds to the arena
20 seconds to the dungeons
45 seconds to either city gate
Well, the time in Yliakum (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29117.msg334685#msg334685) is not the time on your clock, Valorius. But a good roleplayer knows this.
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Some food for thought:
From Hydlaa plaza it's approx:
15 seconds to the sewers,
30 seconds to the arena
20 seconds to the dungeons
45 seconds to either city gate
Well, the time in Yliakum (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29117.msg334685#msg334685) is not the time on your clock, Valorius. But a good roleplayer knows this.
I ask, why was this post even neccesary? It was an irrelevant addition that, in reality, was just a lame excuse for a thinly vieled insult.
I quantified my post in REAL TIME MEASUREMENTS cause even "non RPers, PKers, PVPers, and Powerlevelers" would recognize it. Unlike you, i am all-inclusive. :)
Valorius .. I'm only going to say one thing, you're the only person I've ever met that calls themselves a good roleplayer and considers everything not implemented yet non-existent. I'd think about that if I were you. ::)
I simply dont pick and choose what to include, like all you "RPing Pros" do. MANY PSer simply include what aspects of 'how it would really be" they can cherry-pick that supports your their position, and then conveniently overlook the rest. Like crowds, and congestion and sight obstruction, etc, as i mentioned in my last post.
I simply RP what's implemented. It's IMO the most honest way to do it. I go by what's in game when acting on a scenario. IOW, i do not pretend i can turn ethereal (like one player does), or can blast black fire out my hands (like anohter player does), nor do i pretend i am the equal of a player FAR STRONGER than i am (while, of course, declining his challenges), just to avoid training because "only RP fighting is real fighting", or because "PvP is OOC. Sorry, no, the Devs included PvP to resolve disputes between players.
You know what IS TERRIBLY OOC? Declining a challenge when someone attacks you. "Oh? You're attacking me at a full charge with your swords? Well, pffft, i'll simply decline and ignore you or bicker some more."
Anyone who has ever declined such a challenge has NO ROOM to talk about anyone else's RP deficiencies.
As for me, i RP what's implemented. So sue me.
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I won't sue you but I will chose not to RP that way :P
If I'm challenged when I'm in the vicinity of a guard or friend who could possibly come to my assistance, I'll refuse that challenge. I don't find the duel/combat system realistic enough in such situations for my RP preferences ... and I find that everyone has the choice to decide this. If someone makes it impossible for me to get out of fighting them in an IC manner I'll simply /ignore that player after saying "No thanks."
I hope you realize that your extreme standpoints are no better than the 'elite' roleplaying standpoints that are being taken by some people. People should remember that we're all here to have fun respect eachother's wishes more .. I know I've also been guilty of not doing it but I do my best to remember it.
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I won't sue you but I will chose not to RP that way :P
If I'm challenged when I'm in the vicinity of a guard or friend who could possibly come to my assistance, I'll refuse that challenge. I don't find the duel/combat system realistic enough in such situations for my RP preferences ... and I find that everyone has the choice to decide this. If someone makes it impossible for me to get out of fighting them in an IC manner I'll simply /ignore that player after saying "No thanks."
And THAT is good RP? Totally ignoring it cause the PvP system doesnt suit you? That is a 100% OOC reason not to duel.
To RP someone attacking you (not challenging- attacking- there is a differerence) there are two choices- RUN, or fight. "No thanks" as a response to an attack will only get you a belly full of steel in reality. If one has made a conscious decision not to fight, one should be very polite IC indeed to keep any kind of realism to the fact that its in an era when people would kill one another for virtually any reason at all (oh, wait, most of the world is still like that, hehe).
Hmmm.
I hope you realize that your extreme standpoints are no better than the 'elite' roleplaying standpoints that are being taken by some people. People should remember that we're all here to have fun respect eachother's wishes more .. I know I've also been guilty of not doing it but I do my best to remember it.
I humbly suggest that anyone who doesnt want to duel with a known pvper not actively provoke them in main chat and(or) tells. Yet, i see it all the time. "RPers" provoking "PvPers", and then simply declining, and often taunting in tells or main chat OOC.
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I'll have to disagree with you Duraza, a well established government ... in fact the only well established government, the one and only government that controls everything which happens within the eight levels of Yliakum ... is not very easy to overthrow at all. People can die, sure, the guards can die and even the vigisimi and octarchs can die but the government is bigger than just a handful of people. Without doubt it has a hand in nearly everything going on in Yliakum, commands the largest military force, has plenty of informants, spies, a treasury bigger than we can all imagine and extremely influential people within it's ranks.
Something like that can't be overthrown easily, the best you could hope to do is work your way into the government and trying to pull as much power towards you as possible. Sadly that would go against the settings and can't be done with the current game mechanics. I wouldn't mind RPing it but I'm very sure that you'll get the opposition of loads of players as soon as you claim to have become a powerful vigesimi :P People become jealous quickly so I stay away from things like that.
Never said it would be easy nor that I would attempt it. Only that it was possible. Its definately not probable ;)
Some food for thought:
From Hydlaa plaza it's approx:
15 seconds to the sewers,
30 seconds to the arena
20 seconds to the dungeons
45 seconds to either city gate
Well, the time in Yliakum (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29117.msg334685#msg334685) is not the time on your clock, Valorius. But a good roleplayer knows this.
I ask, why was this post even neccesary? It was an irrelevant addition that, in reality, was just a lame excuse for a thinly vieled insult.
I quantified my post in REAL TIME MEASUREMENTS cause even "non RPers, PKers, PVPers, and Powerlevelers" would recognize it. Unlike you, i am all-inclusive. :)
I think the point of that was to tell you that 15 seconds in RL could be 10 minutes in Ylikuam. What you call a short time in RL really would be a very long time giving guards plenty to catch up.
I simply dont pick and choose what to include, like all you "RPing Pros" do. MANY PSer simply include what aspects of 'how it would really be" they can cherry-pick that supports your their position, and then conveniently overlook the rest. Like crowds, and congestion and sight obstruction, etc, as i mentioned in my last post.
I simply RP what's implemented. It's IMO the most honest way to do it. I go by what's in game when acting on a scenario. IOW, i do not pretend i can turn ethereal (like one player does), or can blast black fire out my hands (like anohter player does), nor do i pretend i am the equal of a player FAR STRONGER than i am (while, of course, declining his challenges), just to avoid training because "only RP fighting is real fighting", or because "PvP is OOC. Sorry, no, the Devs included PvP to resolve disputes between players.
You know what IS TERRIBLY OOC? Declining a challenge when someone attacks you. "Oh? You're attacking me at a full charge with your swords? Well, pffft, i'll simply decline and ignore you or bicker some more."
Anyone who has ever declined such a challenge has NO ROOM to talk about anyone else's RP deficiencies.
As for me, i RP what's implemented. So sue me.
I can't say that your way of Rping is any better than mine. After all who are we the players to say what is in the game and what isn't? What's implemented is the safest way to go about rping. However I still feel when you RP you should look at the game as a whole and not an unfinished product because the fact that it is unfinished is OOC. You should not let that affect how you rp because OOC does not belong in the IC rping world, it leads to bad rp. The best way to make sure that something you rp is in the game or possible is to ask a gm. They have the best idea of what the finished game will be like and will be able to respond to you the best.
As for the bit about PvP I can't speak for everyone but I don't PvP because I find it an unrealistic way to fight. I believe that it was mentioned that the PvP system will be changed to make it more realistic and when that happens I'll start to PvP and train. The other reason is because as I said I like to look at the game as complete when I rp. When it is our characters will have limitations, something not displayed currently. Right now anyone can get a lot of money and just train till all their stats are maxed so they can rp their character as really strong and beat anyone PvP. However when the game is complete depending on how you make your character during creation you won't be able to reach higher levels in certain stats. I rp by those limitations. For example my character Duraza is rped to be a strong dark mage however he isn't very agile. He has very low skill at using any weapon and because of his low strength he rather stick to magic. Now if I were to try and train Duraza according to those limits I put on myself for rp then I'd still lose PvP. The reason why is most people just spend their time maxing every stat ignoring the fact that their character too should have limits.
This ties in to my reson for declining challenges. It's not OOC for one thing because the character challenging is usually "uber" strong having just trained all their stats to max as if they were the perfect warrior. Secondly doesn't it make sense that the character who declined decided to run away? After all when I accept I could just /yield anyways without my opponent getting to me at all. If I wanted to when someone engages me in a duel I could accept then just run really far away. However that would be pretty useless when I can just decline and run in the first place.
As I said its not bad to Rp whats implemented but its not the best way in my opinion. And as for that black fire thing I do something simular to it. I don't know who you meet who did it but for me I pretty much rp the effects simularly to those of regular fire. The fact that its black is just to make it unique ;)
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I think the point of that was to tell you that 15 seconds in RL could be 10 minutes in Ylikuam. What you call a short time in RL really would be a very long time giving guards plenty to catch up.
Well that is the exact opposite of reality. In busy city streets and winding back alleys(what youre saying should be simulated), the fleet of foot escaping killer would have a huge edge over the platemail encumbered guard who was probably standing in the sun all day, bored, and who would really rather be taking a nap. And, oh, by the way.....Elite warriors are very expensive, and are rarely used as guards. Typically the youngest, most inexperienced soldiers in a garrison are. And what's more, guard duty is deathly boring, and guards tend to stop caring about the daily details of their duties, and tend to get distracted by the pretty young girls, or magazines, or anything they can think of to break up the boredom of that oldest of soldier's banes.
One poster said, "They'd just hire more guards until there would be no more killings." Hmmm, a simple sounding solution, but it overlooks the fact that trained professional troops (let alone wizards) do not grow on trees, nor are they free, and that almost no place on earth(using reality as our guild) is there a 0% murder rate. Surely if it was easy as 'just hiring more guards' there would be no inner city street crime anywhere in the 1st world. Yet...
Finally, if these troops were the cream of the crop, they'd be at BD guarding that far more important strategic location. I imagine that'd be doubly so for any mages employed by the Gov't.
So, there are a few more daggers of reality into the heart of the assertion that the hydlaa guards are some inviolable force that could easily deal with any threat.
I can't say that your way of Rping is any better than mine. After all who are we the players to say what is in the game and what isn't? What's implemented is the safest way to go about rping. However I still feel when you RP you should look at the game as a whole and not an unfinished product because the fact that it is unfinished is OOC.
Im not saying my style of play is in anyway superior- just that it's valid. Further, no world is ever in a 'finished state'. It is very easy for me to say blasters dont exist, cause they dont. At such a time as they're invented(implemented), then they exist. I simply choose to view PS as a living, growing world, where the flurry of rennaissance and invention is firmly in place. Things like bows, and riding beasts, and more spells are being devised by the learned of the realm every day.
That's how i look at it. Ylaikum is alive and growing.
PS: As for you being at a disadvantage in fights because you train only mage stats/skills- i will tell you that mages (especially massed mages) totally dominated the war that spurred this thread.
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Now that this discussion was opened to other veins...
People shouldn't be afraid of their government, the government should be afraid of their people
So in other words, any government will exist only as long as the people tolerate or support it, if the majority is convinced that they are corrupt and evil(even if this isn't true), then things will start heating up, but convincing a majority, in secret, isn't trivial(Both French and Russian revolutions had massive popular support, or they would've probably failed). Otherwise the only way to successfully overthrow a government is with the support of a foreign nation(or by this nation itself). Also,making a network of secret societies could be another step to it as shown here (http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/revolution.html). An interesting prospect, no matter the final result. Though I advise anybody to wait for certain features to be implemented instead of going to fight with something that gameplay-wise doesn't exist. "Roleplaying" a government that doesn't exist in game is next to impossible.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GPfI9oxZuEo (http://youtube.com/watch?v=GPfI9oxZuEo) :detective:
P.S.: In the Soviet Black Sun Union, the Revolution starts YOU!!
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I can't say that your way of Rping is any better than mine. After all who are we the players to say what is in the game and what isn't? What's implemented is the safest way to go about rping. However I still feel when you RP you should look at the game as a whole and not an unfinished product because the fact that it is unfinished is OOC.
Im not saying my style of play is in anyway superior- just that it's valid. Further, no world is ever in a 'finished state'. It is very easy for me to say blasters dont exist, cause they dont. At such a time as they're invented(implemented), then they exist. I simply choose to view PS as a living, growing world, where the flurry of rennaissance and invention is firmly in place. Things like bows, and riding beasts, and more spells are being devised by the learned of the realm every day.
That's how i look at it. Ylaikum is alive and growing.
I can understand that. Your view is that when it was implemented it was newly discovered. My warning is not to always think like that. For example we've had weapons far before we were able to craft. Even though it wasn't implemented you'd have to have assumed that crafting existed. You could say its something that has not yet been taught to the public but you have to know that it did exist. My other piece of advice is not to always shun something just because its not implemented. As you said Ylikuam is growing so who knows, some player might start using arrows. In that way they would have "invented" arrows. Its just not used yet because its a new invention. Then when bow and arrows is placed ingame that person technically was just one of the first to propose the idea.
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This whole argument is getting a little silly. Both sides arguments are full of holes. V says "only role-play what is" well every citizen is subject to being called up into the militia and if the government thinks you are enough of a problem it would not take very long to sweep the sewers/dungeon and certainly someone will notice where the fleeing miscreant trailing blood went. As for RPing what you know will exist regardless of its implementation ... well ... That isn't Harnquist I am standing next to, it is the smith on the bottom level of the realm, I made my getaway clean. The fact you see me in Hydlaa is just because the other levels are not available.
Once they finish the character wipe for .19 we will all be nice and equal again. :devil:
Since this discussion has wandered off into the nether regions here is some infernal torture from the river Styx (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntzCi1lu2ys)
Just kidding, please don't hurt me.
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Now I really don't regret my decision of abandoning completelly the level treadmill and mining gold treadmill to focuse exclusively on roleplay. And I wonder if @bilbous posted that as a way to push a lock on this thread. So I'm going against it... by trying to push it back on topic.
I'm sure some drunk people will fight in the Plaza sometimes, but nothing with an outcome as death, that would require either RP-fight or a new game combat mechanics that allows non-lethal takedowns.
*edit*
I think that if Harnquist is enoughly drunk, even he might engage in a brawl with somebody in the plaza, specially if he isn't too patient and can't hold insults(something yet to be known). Guards would probably be alert(or not, who knows? Perhaps in the time the brawl happens they are patrolling elsewhere) and take action if the confusion becomes too big.
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*sigh*
This game isn't about PvPers vs RPers > its mmoRPg < there are no PvPers. PvP as you have itis only part of game doing extension to RP as you could have RP duel but if both sides want they can have duel by gamemechanics.
To fight on plaza, it does not matter if you run away or how many guards are around, first you have to have some story for that fight and it can take only a short while. When you want to fight in way you did, please do it off public as it is more annoying than interesting, thanks.
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For the "PvPers", a couple of FPS' for you to show off your 1337 5K1LLZ
http://www.warrock.net/ and http://www.americasarmy.com/
Both free.
As socia said, PvP is just something to AID RP not a different activity.
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FP.. some people make an assumption that others are after an FPS whereas they enjoy both the RP and PvP elements of the game, that's not really fair, is it?
But this mischaracterise the argument here... which actually... is about realism and staying in-character regarding fights and imparticular, war that passes through the Plaza.
Socia... just to clarify about the war you had witnessed...
- The issues behind the war were IC.
- RP events were the catalyst.
- Some characters (not players) already had grudges between them already, which were also the result of roleplay.
- The DR fighting sucked and shouldn't be repeated.
The Plaza fighting is quetionable but we have no realistic idea of the threshold (the number of combattants at which the guards would rather sit back and let the warring factions kill each other before trying to tackle the trouble.) and that in itself will continue to cause different people to have different perceptions... and ultimately argue OOC about it... really, I just wanted to find out what people thought was reasonable and whether there were any solid indications as to what, if anything, we should imagine into the game... instead of what we actually have to go off, which is, to quote... "a rumour" about the occupation of the guard-tower.
I just wanted to find what where realistic limits to this would be and what to really expect from the guards.
As usual though... it's devolved into someone trying to make out that people who enjoy both RP and PvP are simply FPS fanatics... and sadly... that pushes things away from being a productive or constructive discussion.
Please stop bashing each other and stick to the facts. (and that's aimed at nobody imparticular, just in-general)
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FP.. some people make an assumption that others are after an FPS whereas they enjoy both the RP and PvP elements of the game, that's not really fair, is it?
But this mischaracterise the argument here... which actually... is about realism and staying in-character regarding fights and imparticular, war that passes through the Plaza.
I was going on the impression others in the discussion had given me. Everyone is different and I feel that some better suited to a multiplayer FPS are ruining the ambience of the game for others and it is part of the issue we are debating. I'm all for less civilised characters having to use the PvP to aid their roleplay, as is DOES make the game more interesting. However I cannot sympathise with people who play the game to have PvP and the means to achieving it as the main activity.
Obviously we don't actually know the answer to the question you have and its something for the Devs to answer, and hopefully see fit to actually implement something into the game that portrays that fact.
I may be dancing the flame line here but I'd already stuck my foot in it really :-[
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FP.. some people make an assumption that others are after an FPS whereas they enjoy both the RP and PvP elements of the game, that's not really fair, is it?
But this mischaracterise the argument here... which actually... is about realism and staying in-character regarding fights and imparticular, war that passes through the Plaza.
Socia... just to clarify about the war you had witnessed...
- The issues behind the war were IC.
- RP events were the catalyst.
- Some characters (not players) already had grudges between them already, which were also the result of roleplay.
- The DR fighting sucked and shouldn't be repeated.
The Plaza fighting is quetionable but we have no realistic idea of the threshold (the number of combattants at which the guards would rather sit back and let the warring factions kill each other before trying to tackle the trouble.) and that in itself will continue to cause different people to have different perceptions... and ultimately argue OOC about it... really, I just wanted to find out what people thought was reasonable and whether there were any solid indications as to what, if anything, we should imagine into the game... instead of what we actually have to go off, which is, to quote... "a rumour" about the occupation of the guard-tower.
I just wanted to find what where realistic limits to this would be and what to really expect from the guards.
As usual though... it's devolved into someone trying to make out that people who enjoy both RP and PvP are simply FPS fanatics... and sadly... that pushes things away from being a productive or constructive discussion.
Please stop bashing each other and stick to the facts. (and that's aimed at nobody imparticular, just in-general)
TYVM for putting a stop to the mess with Valorius, Drah.
P.S. do you think you could post some of the backstory stuff from this war up? It'd really help alleviate the confusion about this guild war being IC vs. OOC.
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@Kaerli... I'll ask those who were directly involved to do that.
As I wanted to try to keep this thread in more of a hypothetical mode... they might just post something briefly to the roleplaying thread to explain what had happened just prior to things kicking off. :)
Valorius indepently asked her guild to avoid fighting on the plaza too, we both had reached the conclusion that we didn't want any more trouble from the GMs or from other players pretty much at the same time.
@FP .. I don't think you flamed there at all and I understand your point that if people are looking primarily for PvP then PS isn't for them... I agree.
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ooc reason: there's a lot of pressure on the plaza already
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Hello,
I am not a long time PS player and I am not really a good RP-er, but however this don't mean that I can't understand what RP is and I want also share my opinion, since I have this opportunity. Actually I didn't read all posts from this topic, but from some of them I red I saw some good points and some totally senseless .
First of all I don't understand why all this wasting of words around realism. This is a game, and more specifically a game with fantasy setting, so the realism of it can be totally different from the realism we are all familiar with. And usually in role playing games (like D&D) the realism is defined by game masters, if you don't like the way of leading the game, you leave the group and find another one that is more adequate for you. Arguing decisions of game masters, show only a immaturity of the person in consideration. Of course I think everyone should be able to give a suggestion to improve the game, but this can be done in polite and calm way. Personally I had only good experiences in communication with game masters and developers.
Now back to the main topic. Fighting in plaza, as some said, can be also considered IC if you play a criminal or fool character that provoke people in a guarded city and get the IC response of self-defense or defense of honour from the challenged character. But still in the case this fool or criminal kill the honest citizen (even if he/she think that has right), would be an expected IC reaction to run away and no stand there and showing of. Of course a fool have no sense and at this point can be also the discussion open. So I think if someone want play a criminal, can kill in plaza and run away, if someone want play a fool, can kill and stay there, but don't be surprised if that character is considered as such after it. A big step forward for PS would be, if when a fight start or it seems to starting, a guard would come and show the authority. Also a option of banning from city would be appreciated.
About guild wars in general, I also agree with the fact, that if the war have no background, it is OOC. So as kaerli said, if Drah give us some more details of this it would help to understand if it was OOC or IC.
Also I found a good point from Nicana. If plaza has a rule not to fight on it, guards should be first who should give a good example. So organizing a fight was not really a smart decision.
As conclusion I want to say, that PS team do alot of voluntary work for our pleasure, so folowing few their requests would be the minimum we can give them back.
Stylee
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*socia's tail nervously taps on chair while she waits for the story....*
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There were already existing tensions because of an ongoing grudge between guild-#1 leader and a senior member of guild-#2.
At an auction not long before the war there was some confusion on behalf of a senior member (not the one with the grudge initially) of guild-#2, a member from guild-#1 developed an attitude and started being extremely rude to the guild-#2 member. guild-#2 member responded that there was no need for that kind of attitude or rudeness, guild-#1 member became even more aggressive, guild-#2 member became aggressive...
Guild-#1 member felt guild-#2 member was an idiot... guild-#2 member felt he'd been greatly dishonored because of the insults... and so they agreed to meet for a fight.
Guild-#2 member turned up at the agreed place only to find that the entire Guild-#1 had turned up... seemingly neither side trusted the other to turn up alone as some of Guild-#2 had come along too.
After guild-#1's member was disposed of... guild-#1's leader confronted guild-#2's member... and with the existing tensions... the arguments soon escalated from individual-vs-individual into guild-vs.-guild.
War was declared, guild-#2 received intel that guild-#1 was calling on their former guild for assistance and so guild-#2 called upon their allies.
Then... there were 2 guilds at war with another 2 guilds.
I can't post logs as the person directly involved in the initial argument had lost the logs when they uninstalled .018... but at least you know the story now... and yes, I've kept it vague on purpose as my intent for this thread was more for posing a hypothetical question.
If you want more details I'd suggest you go and ask those who were involved, in-character. :)
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Knowing a little about both guilds, i believe this war could have been avoided. But of course this is my personal opinion. I believe it was IC though
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Well, well.
I've read almost everything of this scattered thread. (took quite some time)
Here my points:
What's the OOC problem with fighting at the plaza: Less experienced players may think that it's common to fight everywhere without taking into consideration that anything may happen.
Ignoring the fact that there are guards, independant of the count, is OOC. Taking it as IC that they (those who can be seen) won't do anything is even worse. And even if you can escape (it doesn't matter how many seconds/minutes/hours you need to get from the plaza to the gate/sewers/whatever) (allthough there are guards at the gates, near the sewers entrances) they would at least banish you from the city after you slayd someone there. (Won't let you get back in).
Of course, fighting happens IC at the plaza also. It's normal that people get in rage when offending each other and soon a fight happens, no matter what the law is. But ignoring that guards would come to sort it out (as long as it isn't too late), or would track you after killing someone, at least inside the city walls, is ludicrous.
I even once heard one saying: "Fine, call the guards. When they tell me to stop, I will."
Yes, people could be arrogant enougth to say that IC. But such an sentence come, in my oppinion, from the fact that the PLAYER knows that guards won't come nor do anything..
About "GM's could have fun also playing guards": Yes, maybe.. sometimes. But that's not what they are there for. It's not their task to RP the guards and I also don't think that it always would be fun to do so. (Will be quite annoying soon for them).
And then, there will be people arguing how "one single guard" can't be able to stop X persons fighting.
Sure, it wouldn't be easy for the guards to stop a war which happens among 4 guilds, but they would at least be able to surge them out of the city.
Too bad one can't walk "awound" Hydlaa, yet. I mean from the east gate to the north gate. (For example to go to BD when coming from Ojaveda). This makes it hard to RP being punished from Hydlaa without actually walking throught it.
Possible Improovements: (Suggestions)
Make the area from the east gate to the north gate passable. (Oh, well. There's a "kind of" river, but I guess that people should be able to "swim" or "walk" through it [this would require map-changes])
Make it possible to ban people from hydlaa. (Of course, this must happen IC, the enforcement could be game-mechanics wise [for example by GM's who impersonate guards])
Make it possible for GM's who're able to impersonate a guard to have "helper guards" (maybe somewhat similar like pets who should be able to "follow"/"assist"/"attack", btw "follow a target" [track someone down within Hydlaa])
Of course, guards who's track someone down and would get into a fight with the one, most likely won't "kill" the one but knock him/her down. A follow-up after a fight could be "teleport back to the place where the one 'died'", then banish from hydlaa ICly [+game mechanigs wise when implemented]
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Just some comments and suggestions. Some may not yet be that well thought out.
Greetings Arerano.
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"Ignoring the fact that there are guards, independant of the count, is OOC."
a) Imagining an **infinite** number of guards that can't be seen... is IC??
b) Thinking there's a limit to which the guards would be able to operate effectively... is OOC??
"Taking it as IC that they (those who can be seen) won't do anything is even worse."
a) Imagining that the 4 or 5 guards who would have been able to see this would have ran in to take on 30+ people is IC??
b) Imagining that the handful of guards would want to wait for reinforcements or wait until the warring guilds had injured each other enough to be easily apprehended... is OOC??
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As for ignoring the guards, well, for me, I'd have explained to the guards exactly what happened. After all, I was getting shot in the back with arrows as I was making my way to the arena ... had I not retaliated.. I'd have probably been killed.
And I'm sure it will be, in some people's opinions... OOC for me to expect the guards not to recognize me despite wearing different clothes and that I had a battle helm obscuring my face on the day in question... furthermore, I'm sure some people will try to claim that this is "OOC" that I don't imagine that they can see my face from the other size of plaza and also "OOC" if I don't imagine them having photographic memory. ;)
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Drah, being spotted by guards and labeled as an offender of the law can have direct consequences ... though in your case it probably wouldn't have been. However it will have long term consequences because such a huge crime cannot be overlooked and will be spread throughout the city and beyond in a matter of days. The world of Yliakum doesn't end when people decide their RP event is finished. That's what I see with a lot of people who haven't really gotten the hang of roleplaying yet. Those people RP events and just wander about leveling or casually chatting with others in between those events. Very few characters actually RP 100% of the time and take long term consequences of their actions into account ... this is especially true for the criminal type of characters.
Every time I see a 'bad guy' wandering casually past a guard, training in the Arena or chatting on the plaza, I prefer to ignore them and pretend they're not there. Murderers, killers and criminals don't get to simply wander about in a well guarded capital like Hydlaa. If they do it in rogue-infested Ojaveda I can live with it.
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[warning]Long post. Sorry[/warning]
Hydlaa has guards. Enough guards to safe keep the city. Assuming there are both only those you currently see in-game or an infinite number of them is godmodding. No point in arguing which case scenario has the highest probability of taking place.
Is it IC to have a fight? Sure is, as long as your character has a reason to. Does it mean you can fight anywhere? Depends on how smart your character is.
- They could be dumb enough to fight in front of a guard.
- They could be dumb enough to fight in the death realm, knowing their attempts are rather futile beyond the short term (when they could be trying to find the way out, that is if living is somewhat a priority for them).
- They could be dumb enough to forget they are wanted criminals and think they can pull out the respected citizen card whenever it's convenient.
I call all these actions "dumb" just because the character is completely oblivious of the consequences their own actions have brought as in:
- Logically, a guard would react if a crime is committed in front of him. Whatever they would do is not the issue here, but it is the most unlikely that they would sit idly.
- Logically, part of the reaction would be letting other guards know of the crime committed and the perpetrator. That makes the character in question a wanted criminal.
- Logically, wanted criminals should lay low, cover their faces, don't go out in public, etc. That is, of course, if they wish not to be caught/killed on sight.
Do all players do this? No, but some do. And those who answer "the guards don't do anything in-game. I can't be arrested" are simply being not logical and their characters are the dumbest ever.
Can we do something about this? No. Roleplay quality is self-controlling. Only those involved in a roleplay can improve its content. Only when there is a blatant failure to fit the RP in the settings is when some official opinion will be given. As it has been in the case of dragons, vampires, werewolves, etc., etc. Will this stop players from having a RP against settings? Hell no. Otherwise we wouldn't have these discussions over and over. It would only prevent them from freely exposing their RP in any official space: guild names, character names, forum posts, irc, etc. They will be frowned upon in those spaces but in-game, they can RP whatever they want. Simple fact.
But here's another fact: when you completely ignore the community and the settings you are a bad roleplayer.
Bad roleplayer! Bad!
Drah:
I agree with most of your points and I believe there was IC motivation for a guild fight. I also believe there were a few bad roleplayers involved in it because of the reasons exposed above. That, unfortunately, undermines any roleplay.
Now, does the fact that something can have a place IC mean that is ok to go ahead and do it? This is relative. As this long thread has proven, some actions, whether IC or not, have OOC consequences as well, being the most serious one spoiling the game experience for others. If that happens, the fact that it is IC becomes secondary. GMs will intervene when that happens by listening to all parties and taking proper action. Sometimes, players will be annoyed at anything but some others they will have valid points. There isn't a fixed rule that draws acceptable or unacceptable. Each case will be looked at, discussed and dealt with accordingly. Sometimes it will be as simple as "if you don't like it, walk away" and some others it will be a more drastic intervention. It is relative.
My advice next time you plan a RP that is in a gray area is: check with settings team, check with GMs, state all the rules of engagement necessary and then have fun. Some players find it amusing when they get away with a loophole in the rules that allows them to pwn other players. They have fun by themselves and at the expense of others and that is something I personally find reproachable. Player events share the same objective as GM events: to promote roleplay and make the game experience better. Checking with the teams makes that a lot easier to achieve.
Enjoy the game.
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This thread in the end, really sounds like 2 kids bickering... "I killed you, youre dead"...."No Im not, I killed you...."
Argh
Most of the posts referring to fighting in the plaza, are still forgetting that we are talking about a war. A WAR!!!. A soldier in an army is not a murdering, thieving criminal, he is a soldier, fighting for his army, his cause. Name me one soldier from history that was arrested by "the guards of the city", for murdering a soldier on the opposing army. Its childish to think otherwise.
Perhaps some more people need to watch the history channel, more documentaries, read more books, to realise exactly what was realistic in medieval times.
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That is just silly. They got Al Capone for tax evasion. You are not talking about legitimate armies you are talking about gang violence. Wasn't there a crip leader recently executed in the States despite a jail-house conversion? That is what you are talking about, not England vs France or the U.S vs the world.
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I know exactly what Im talking about. Remember also we are talking about medieval times, not 1920 or 1940. We are NOT talking about gangs, we are talking about 2 hostile forces fighting one another in medieval warfare, mercenary armies, or Militia. Sure, i agree, not a country, but when a city is under seige, the "guards" are civilian, and the army would have to move in to defend the city, so if any civilian took up arms, they would be considered guerilla's, and the army may not be successful. So lets think about a few armies in the Middle Ages that were not backed by a leader of a country, shall we? And we will see who is the silly one, as you put it.
It would be more on topic to speak of the likes of The Huns, this is more the timezone we are all RPing. The Huns moved out of central Asia and took whatever they liked in front of them. They didnt get into a city plaza and stop fighting because the civilians might complain, lmao.
Or perhaps the Goths, around the time of 370AD. Starting as refugees from the Huns, they migrated across the Denube, and into the Roman Empire, where they were treated like crap, so they revolted, taking down not only the emperor, but 2/3 of his army. This was done within the Balkan Provinces, again, no stopping the warriors because a civilian may complain.
The Goths were people without a country, they invaded the West Roman Empire, and had an overwhelming victory, which some say marked the beginning of the end of the Roman Empire. So that takes care of the comment that we arent talking about England vs France, you dont need to be a leader of a country to invade a city. Many leaders, kings, emperors have been taken down, along with their armies, by alot less than the likes of another country's army.
I wonder if all armies in history, no, lets just stay within medieval warfare, if they would have stopped at the city walls, well, we would still have Troy around today, there would never have been the fall of the Roman Empire, and England may well still be run by the Romans.
If we want to talk history, lets talk history, since this is when this game is set, and the time we are RP'ing, so again I say, it would not be IC for me to stop and not fight in the plaza, if that is where my enemy has headed, I would pursue him, capture him, and slay him, and I would have my army at my back to resist any other forces that appeared. And if we were to go down, we would go down fighting.
We could talk about this until we are all blue in the face, but the fact will remain, that no one is here to listen to other's comments, they are only here to put their point across, and of course, your point is always the best, and the only one that matters. So until the contributants of this thread, every one of them, are willing to consider all the idea's put forth, there is no reason to continue this conversation. I would just suggest that people should learn a little bit of history, before trying to sound like they know what they are talking about in regards to wars of the middle ages, and therefore what is acceptable RP.
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Just out of curiosity (since I wasn't there when it happened). How many characters were involved in this war?
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Probably 30-40 each army. Well we had 30-40 at any time, and the other side had 20-25 most times.
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A pretty decent number for a guild. I bet there were more Huns than that though. ;)
Anyway, I'm glad you had fun and again, feel free to contact me if you need help for future events.
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Wither good points but I think you're missing one vital idea ...
Your examples were all of one group invading another, this example is one of two groups fighting in territory controlled by a third. Hydlaa is the capital of Yliakum, the seat of the Octarchy. The Octarchy has four Bronze Door fortresses which are fully manned on the first level alone (settings, correct me if I'm wrong here) and I imagine plenty more reserve troops around. The Octarchy has a total army much, much larger than 40 or even 70 men, if you combine both warring guilds. On top of that they control most of the cities and have hardened, veteran troops fighting off the creatures from the Stone Labyrinth.
That is the issue here, two guilds warring on property that is owned by a much more powerful government, without it's consent.
Personally I'd rather see any type of war being played out in the wilds .. we have plenty of room there and it keeps problems like this away.
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If you do not like my modern day example think the Montegues and the Capulets from Romeo and Juliet. Two rival factions within their town held in check by the forces of their liege lord who was a Duke or something. Your guild would be akin to a minor house while the Hydlaa guard are the forces of the territorial Lord. You have to know that the territorial forces will scale to the resistance they may encounter as Yliakum has a stable government according to the settings so your rival army analogy is flawed from the get-go. The overthrow of the government or at least the rendering of it ineffective is out of context even if it is in character.
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Well, for starters, Romeo and Juliet is a story, not an historical event. 2ndly, the hydlaa guard is very limited in its resources, a guard is not an army, a guard is not set up for war, it is set up to protect the city from general crime, but not an army moving in.
I think Hwnae has some good points though, 12 BD's i think there are in fact, and agreed, all well fortified. But remember, it is a long way from the BD1 area to Hydlaa, and this is the closest BD's.
As far as minor houses overthrowing territorial lords, history is full of this. The setting also suggest that PC's could possibly challenge and overthrow the government, unfortunately, it isnt possible in the game mechanics, perhaps some day that will change.
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Planeshift is more of a story than a historical event. What two factions fighting in the plaza has to do with either overthrowing it I don't know. You'll find with such a stable government they'll have a sufficient army to rid of any invaders. Especially as all citizens have to be trained in combat.
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Since I was the GM who started this I shall give my point of view
Firstly when I started to receive complaints from players and I looked at the Plaza there were 6 or 8 players taking it in turns to duel by the fountain, hardly a war situation and it wasn't till I started to follow them to the arena I saw more
Secondly I asked repeatedly for the fighting to be moved to the arena where it belonged and the players finally agreed saying they were informing their guilds
Thirdly after my fourth warning shout I started Freezing and raising out of combat reach and finally it was taken to the arena when I had finished and some sort of order was established I thawed the players intending to bring them down unharmed but they must have moved because they all fell before I could lower them, I did
not drop them on purpose after all I could have just teleported them to the DR with the same effect.
In reply to those comments that the guard doesn't exist or crossbows don't exist because they aren't implemented yet neither are opening doors but does the entire population of Hydlaa (est 1000+) sleep in the streets?
As for crossbows maybe a mage could get a spell off in time to defeat the firepower of a crossbows 2-4 shots a minute, but I'd be surprised if a mage could stay concentrated under the 10-15 a minute a good longbowman can get off
At no time was there 60+ chars fighting at once on the plaza 20 tops and mostly right under the guard tower so the guards would have the advantage of higher ground as well as a fortified defensible position
Whether the war was IC/OOC or just for fun didn't really bother me at the time and the only thing OOC about fighting in the Plaza or any of the public areas is assuming there will be no reaction from guards or that there are no guards, purely because we haven't had time to implement a proper Hydlaa Guard detail
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Just out of curiosity (since I wasn't there when it happened). How many characters were involved in this war?
VLAHII(Alecsandre , Lupul , Gargaru , Rybbamma , Kaatz) Prophets of Chaos (Plank , Sissarliss , Thorinas) about the rest ask Drah , he knows well that .
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(http://members.aol.com/atamas/impaler.jpg)
Assume for rp purposes that this is what would happen to a mob in Hydlaa that was violent and refused to disperse.
Medieval justice was often not pretty. The arrogance and disregard of authority and reasonable argumentation i see in this thread is disconcerting to say the least and i commend Mordraugion for taking action to stop it.
A read of the Octarchal Decree reveals a cold and arbitrary justice that is meted out by a small minority, get used to it or ride your pike to the DR happily.
BTW that could easily be me sitting and having dinner whille the OOC people are writhing.
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Did everyone here miss wither's statement? :P Wither, there are 7 BDs, not 12.
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they included " i think" to their statement, and they were in the general ballpark so at least they have made time to read some settings material.
lets not start getting nit picky people. play nice.