Personally I think that the game itself is going along just as planned, with perhaps a few changes for technological changes in the last 5 or 6 years, but without much change in the actual -content- ideals (although I'm the type of person who, if creating such a project, would write up exactly what I would want by exactly what release, with the biggest stuff last after the frameworks were down, and then pray to the god of computer development that computers would be good enough to handle what I'd thought up years before by the time we got there ).

I have a feeling the Devs have always intended Planeshift not only to be a free 3d mmorpg, but to be the biggest and the best 3d mmorpg in terms of content, etc.  Considering it now has as many features as some "finished" games (although those games use a different system for combat, leveling, etc., so although feature wise they're about equal they're ahead insofar as that they have developed their system to fit a much more narrow thing), and is only .3 (meaning .7 versions to go till it's considered a "full" game), and the fact that development of features is going along at a much more rapid pace (as far as I can tell) then it had been before Crystalspace was 1.0...  I think as far as dev team aspirations, the sky's the limit (perhaps literally--it is called "planeshift", which gives the idea of going to different planes, as opposed to "Big Stalactite", or "Yliakum 3d" ).  (Look out WoW, open source freeware is coming up behind you).

I do think the community is going in a way the devs perhaps didn't originally intend (when people spend more time killing things then roleplaying), and predictably so, but from Dev hintings, that could change.  (and I've shamelessly advocated another possible solution for it that I've thought up in no less then 2 threads.   Perhaps a third, if this counts as advocating it. X.X)

Despite all this praise, which I wholeheartedly agree with (since I barely play anymore, there isn't any benefit to me to making the devs like me ), all my previous complaining about powerleveling v. roleplaying still stands, and I am a shameless elitist (although as long as they're making an effort, I commemorate them, and then sometimes explain what they're doing wrong in my typical elitist way).  That's a devs-community thing, not a devs-game thing.  I think the game itself is going along fine

It's possible to powerlevel a char to max stats and almost maxed weapon skill within two weeks, not to forget armor and magic - and you will still find the time to roleplay this char most of the time. Think it's impossible to get a char up in skills and stats that fast and still rp all the time? Well, I have done it, I had the time to PL him, I had the time to make up a RP story for him, to give him a history that explains why he is doing what he is doing and I had time to do quests with him too, at the same time I had the time to sometimes even play with Cebot. So you see, it is possible to train and rp, just remember that you do not need 200k to begin with, remember that you do not have to boringly stay in front of a gladiator to fight it, remember that they are gladiators and use tactics too, so think about tactics you could use to beat em when you are too weak.

Of course, how realistic is it that everyone is a super powerful magician-warrior with no weaknesses?  It makes little sense ICly.

When playing PS (I usually play a more rp intensive game), I try (rather, tried) to roleplay my stats.  As such, I was a relatively competent warrior, but nothing special, who had learned a few tricks in the various ways (basic spells) in order to suppliment his fighting.  Mercenary, too.

Playing such is pointless when you have so many people with maxed stats roleplaying their stats--in any given situation, the person who spends little time powerleveling in comparison to roleplay will be made obsolete by the people who keep their skills maxed at all times.  Obviously, they're more skilled then someone else, but it makes roleplay seem pointless, because there is little spot for those who do not become the l337-uber warrior mage smith that everyone else has become.

I also tried another mmorpg. it is like choosing a class, being totally restricted to that class until you have killed enough mobs to be lvl 10, then you can choose between 2 subclasses (archer: hunter / marksman) quests are boring as there is no real interaction with the npc, you just click on the npc with the BIG FAT ! above the head. and the best, I got told that most mmorpg's are like that. I know a lot have tried the same game and some have returned to PS, but why did they return? ps is soooo crappy according to what so many people say, yet the people come back after playing a finished comercial game for some time - a wild guess: most mmorpg's do not deserve the RP in the name and thats what people were missing? *shrugs* Welcome back everyone, btw
It saddens me tho that some of my earlier PS friends have left. but who knows, hopefully they will come back one day too.

Things like that are meant to keep powerleveling and reality defying uber l337 warrior mage smiths from existing.  A more open system would be nice in PS, where you can't master one skill except at the expense of others (for instance, if you spent all your time training in heavy armor, after a certain point your fighting in medium and light armor would be effected, because of habits that are good in heavy armor that aren't good in light or medium armor).  A balance would have to be reached, of course (because there are feasible medium-heavy and light-medium armor mixes that make rp sense, such as chainmail armor but leather armor on the legs.).  The same could be true for magic classes, weapons (related ones wouldn't suffer as much penalty, such as swords and daggers, but there are few swords you use like a battleaxe, polearm, or mace), and skills in general.

In the end there is nothing that can end powerleveling.

If you make it harder to powerlevel then to roleplay, people will roleplay more.  However, few see any reason to without a punishment for not doing so or a reward for doing so.

A Mage would want to learn all the 6 ways of magic and master them

And they likely could, to a point--but realistically no mage that did equally well in all spell schools would be as good as one who specialized in one, simply because the one who is specializing would be able to put time into his or her specialty at the detriment of his other magical skills (particularly opposing ways), because of habit building and whatnot.  It's the same in real life, with doctors:  generalists are never as good as specialists in the specialist's field, but might be able to diagnose or pass along a patient to the appropriate specialist in a much better way.

there are 3 kinds of armor and a really good warrior would know how to use all 3 kinds

A really good warrior would know how to use all 3 kinds to a point, but specialization comes into play here:  if one builds up the responses one has to make in heavy armor (blocking, using weight to their advantage, etc.), they would build bad habits for light armor (which relies much more on the person's ability to dodge and offers minimal protection, but is light and inexpensive).

A crafter would want to learn how to craft different things, for example they start with crafting knifes and daggers, become masters in that, but then want to craft axes and swords and shields (and armor, when it will be available) too and a really good blacksmith would want to master those areas too

Specialists > jack of all trades.  However, a jack of all trades will be of more use to an organization that needs a variety of weapons that don't necessarily need to be top quality.

---

I’ve been thinking about the original topic of this thread. Of course I have my opinions about both sides of the coin but they’re just that, my opinion. I’ve been trying to figure out a way to help come up with an in game solution that couldn’t be broken by the so-called ‘power levelers’ but I cant seem to find one...

Not allowing people to become masters of all trades would be a good first step to keeping powerleveling from being exceptionally effective (as it means that they will have to make choices, decisions, etc.).

For the here and now we could maybe start a thread where once a week (real time) characters are nominated for good role-playing. Simply add the character name you thought was well played to the thread (maybe even add a copy of your PC log showing an example of what you liked). Those PC’s that get X amount of votes get something like PP, tria, maybe some type of badge added to the character’s profile. There would have to be rules of course, like the obvious, you can’t nominate your own PC. Maybe also have a rule where you can’t vote for members of the same guild or guilds that you belong to <(this would be hard to monitor though). Maybe somebody better at this than me could expand on it and make it work somehow. I’m thinking it isn’t for Dev’s to work on, it’s to help in-game role-playing here and now. Give an incentive to help coax players into role-play.
Ok, Dev’s may need to add any bonuses to the character (PP, tria, etc.). 

(I've mentioned this before, but I'm going to shamelessly do it again)
Or we could have the GMs give bonuses for good rp outside of GM events (perhaps a bonus that gives xp towards progression points, perhaps trias (although that'd seem stranger OOCly, but as progression points are already not IC knowledge..) as the IG or OOC clock ticks) for rp.  And of course, have an official policy that requires that players do not complain about the GM team in public as far as RPing bonuses, and if favoritism is suspected, to report it in a special form only viewable by the dev team.

Oh, and ask the GMs to watch for those without bonuses before giving more to those who are already getting them, of course.  And if someone is just mindlessly mining away or mindlessly killing monsters, have the game system suspend it (making the assumption that they are already getting xp from the monsters/gold and don't need an extra bonus).

Pros:  More people will roleplay and less will power level, especially if the system goes on--even more so if it becomes a better source of xp to keep IC and roleplay with others then mindlessly kill things.  The main "powerleveling" trend would go away, instead favoring those who either want to make money (from drops or from gold) or level up in a skill.  You would still be getting the practice necessary for leveling, of course, but progression points would build up without the need to go fight and kill lots and lots of things.

Cons:  There will be numerous initial complaints about GM favoritism and how the dev team are going to mess up again (of course, this is Planeshift, what else do you expect ).  Could theoretically be exploited by powerlevelers, but only if they were good rpers (The main idea is to balance it so that a -good- rper gets almost as much progression points xp as a powerleveler would, but has more fun).  Monster xp would have to be dropped a bit (or a lot) in order to keep that from being a viable means or creating a huge excess of PP, which could cause a huge money sink and really mess up the economy.  It doesn't fix the power-moneymaking problem (as just having trias appear in your inventory would be OOC).  One more duty for the GM team.

Solutions to some of the cons:  Say that the GM team will endeavor to keep it fair, and also say that it isn't open for discussion (this creates the con of deleting a lot of forum topics).  Set up very clear levels of roleplay and explain them to the GM team and the players.  Set up a way to give someone roleplay kudos (forum board simply for congratulating other players on their roleplay), which could serve as a way to keep track of people who should be watched because of good roleplay (esp. if they have a low rating in the first place).  There would be a lot of complaints about the xp drop in monsters and how you can't level as fast, make it clear that it's a necessary transition period.  Another solution for money obviously would have to be found (weekly gladiatorial competitions, poetry contests, and the like?  Mining would remain an option, of course, as would hunting monsters--it just wouldn't be great for xp.).  The GM team could likely adjust, and new members could be added if necessary.

The best time for such a system to be implemented would be right after a wipe, of course, so that everyone is starting on an even footing in regards to experience, so that complaints of "now it's hard" wouldn't be as common--it would be hard for everyone, not just players who hadn't already maxed their stats and accumulated huge amounts of PP.

Quote

Another thing that could be cool is a private rp rating, that gives you a certain amount of exp. per ingame hour, and is set by the GMs when they see you rping well, or decently, and can fluctuate between being high and low (depending on quality of rp--you get less for mindlessly grinding, and more if you're rping beyond a certain level, at the GM's digression within a set group of guidelines).

You have to realize just how much grief the GM team will get if people see them judging roleplay and trying to figure out who is doing a good job. There will be cries of abuse, favoritism, and how no GM is ever on during some person's timezone so they never get the benefit of this system. It's going to be pure madness.

On enforcing roleplay, I'm strongly against this, as are many other developers. We encourage, not enforce here. Enforcing may mean driving away people with potential who are not ready or willing to roleplay just yet. Many people with whom you have enjoyed great roleplays with did not start out as they are now, and they may not be here at all if they were greeted in the beginning by a GM waving a banstick.

The thing is:  in the beginning, sure, there would be complaints.  Favoritism, abuse, no GMs online, etc.  Pure madness, perhaps, in the beginning.  People will be mad that they aren't getting what they feel they deserve.  Etc.  People will leave, it wouldn't be a pretty sight.

However, in the place I brought this idea from (yes, my ideas aren't original.  Oh noes.  Our GMs are actually DMs), the general consensus (it had been in place for years by this point) was "if no DMs are online when you are, ever, suck it up", along with "abuse will be looked into, but not openly discussed"--the same for favoritism.  Frankly, I feel sorry for the people on at 5:00 EST and no other times, because the chances of a DM seeing their rp is low.


I have a rather bleak outlook on rp in Planeshift if things continue as they are:

If you merely say "we encourage roleplay", you won't be doing anything more then saying "oh, roleplay is okay, if you want to do it, but hey, if you godmod/metagame ("my guildmate is now in trouble, a city away, I must be off"), that's fine too".  Godmodding and metagaming are a lot easier then rping, and if allowed, many will do those (driving good rp'ers away from the game).  Enforcing exceptionally strictly is bad (the ban stick should be used after repeated warnings over a long timespan, not before)--however, without enforcement, there will be about as much good rp as there is in WoW rp servers (from what I hear of them), except less so, because there isn't an rp planeshift server and a pvp planeshift server--all players of Planeshift will come to the same world.  I didn't start out as a great rp'er either (I had come from playing Grindscape, it was to be expected.  Either way, when I came, I had little knowledge of it, although I read the rules and tried it.  I slowly got better.  Those who cannot or will not rp, in my opinion, are detrimental to roleplay, and therefore, in the encouragement of roleplay, enforcement is necessary.), but from my time spent in Arelith (Neverwinter nights persistent world, they enforce rp with a rating, make it hard to grind, and in extreme cases they use the ban stick, however, the fact that it's harder to grind to get exp, and nearly impossible to grind to get money (daily crafting quota) drives away those who would rather grind then roleplay--enforcement of obvious metagaming/godmodding (using OOC information ICly) abuses, and such with detriments to the character (stat lowering), and in excessive amounts, the ban stick, keeps those who would do such things away or from doing them).  I realized that while I was a relatively good rp'er here (from personal observataion; those who knew Garon's circumstances perhaps could speak better or worse of his RP, if not particularly well known--Garon didn't want to be well known, though, so it was IC to stick to the shadows, make few friends outside a select group), there I was average, at best, because the average was much higher then it is here, and still is.

In closing, the quality of rp is going to go downhill as the game gains more features, unless it's enforced, or given heavy shoves towards rp.  This is because, as the game gains features, it becomes more likable for people who -enjoy- grinding and don't care at all for rp--and then less likable for those who enjoy rp, because it's disruptive to see someone chatting about game mechanics or the like.


Edit:  In what way will rp be required to do things in the final (aside from NPC interaction, but that's always roleplayed to some degree, even in Runescape)?  If not through heavy encouragement/making it seem better to the player xp wise, then what?  This seems much easier said then done at this point.

----

Also, a good policy as far as complaints about abuse/favoritism/not on at the right time in relation to the RP rating (or GM actions in general--it seems like a good policy to keep GM abuse reports private, if only because if the GM -is- abusive, imagine what they would do to someone who pointed it out on the forums? ) could be that reports will be checked out, but absolutely will not be discussed openly.  Also, if there are 10 or so GMs who are known to be trustworthy (basically, a small, core group--from what I've seen, there is, although you never know), there would be a system of checks and balances in place that would prevent rampant abuse.  Also, forcing them to give a reason (this would help the players, as well--for instance "very nice dialogue about the nature of government", or "how did you know your friend on the other side of the map was in trouble?"), and then checking that with the logs if necessary to see if they matched, would work as far as enforcement checkings.

Here is an odd thought (probably divorced from reality): make "City Guard" one of the preset classes distinct from the others in that it comes with specific stats, advances in a different manner no pps, no skill training and give it a non-lethal combat attack ability that bypasses the /challenge system. Thus players could choose to have one, not more, of their characters on an account be a city guard. Then when some players decide to start trouble in the plaza, say, one or more other players could log in with their guards and react. Obviously the idea needs more polish and the possibility of guard on guard action must be considered but there it is in a nutshell.

The result of the nonlethal combat would be to beat down stamina to zero at which point the luckless miscreant having failed to escape is knocked unconscious for an arbitrary period of time. Make it so that the guards cannot use their abilities outside of their spawn town so the wrongdoers can always escape to the wilderness if they are lucky.

Probably not something possible but something to think about anyway.

An interesting idea, although preventing abuse of it by players would be hard.  Perhaps something you have to apply for the ability to do, or the like.  City guards don't make for bad rp.

i see no criminals anymore in the game and from resorces am told they are barely around. it just ruins the game if you cant get robbed or assaulted just by logging in thats part of what makes an rp world. constant good vs evil battles if its a small pickpocketing and arrest to a major battle headed by the elemental light and outlaws. not sure if EL is still around. and why in the world is there an npc at kada's? since she left that has been the prime RP spot.

The main problem is that there aren't the resources to be a villian without the good guys agreeing to it.  If pickpocketing (takes a random item under a certain size, or trias, possible to spot the person), a low level spell that would keep people from running (If you've heard of Neverwinter Nights, the comparison would be "hold") were available, and full pvp existed (maybe a list of everyone in the area, with a like/dislike ability, and very strict rules about it (such as--MUST have an rp reason, no interaction for 24 real hours unless otherwise agreed upon by both the killer and the killed, a cap on the number that can be killed within a time limit, and a flag for any player that kills another without 'x' lines of dialogue between them in that area within a talking radius, or a tell warning them that they're in for a possible assassination)).  There would have to be strict enforcing, and the ban stick would have to be applied liberally for abuse.  VERY liberally.  However, it would be in the GM's hands as to what was acceptable, and they'd have to come up with a standard to enforce.  Petitions would be the main way to report it.  Also, we'd need guards that did something while in town.

---
On improving rp in general:
Another thing that could be cool is a private rp rating, that gives you a certain amount of exp. per ingame hour, and is set by the GMs when they see you rping well, or decently, and can fluctuate between being high and low (depending on quality of rp--you get less for mindlessly grinding, and more if you're rping beyond a certain level, at the GM's digression within a set group of guidelines).  It should give comparable exp. to killing monsters (perhaps monster xp rates should be lowered, as well, to make training harder, and the trias needed lowered (quite a bit) as well--and then make gold harder to mine   Right now, all people need massive amounts of trias for is training, so the only real reason to amass that number of trias is to go on a training binge).  Perhaps bounty hunting, as well, would be a good thing to implement (hunting extra strong NPCs for a bounty, that're randomly spawned with a name and then added to some sort of board that says their name, a *description* (for IC recognition purposes only) and they loot what they were using, and their head (captured head, or the like), which a npc will buy for 1000-10000 trias, depending on how difficult the enemy was ("is considered: *danger level* and, if targeted, should be attacked with caution").  Perferably they would be far away from the roads, have some guards, and not move unless attacked, in which case when you attack them, they can run and it would probably take a few (3-5) players of a skill level comparative with the enemy's danger level.  Spawning them randomly throughout the map would be good (with exceptions for cities/BD guard area, of course).

In closing, if this is going to be an rp game, the dev team needs to make it HARD to grind.  Make it less rewarding to grind then to rp.  MUCH less rewarding.  Make it so that player's main source of xp is roleplay, the better, the more xp.  Make it so that grinding doesn't help you very much (perhaps a "day-endurance" that lowers when you craft something/dig something up, related to the run endurance, that resets every IG day.  This would keep people from grinding mining and the like (of course, make it easier to level up trade-skills, because of this).  Enforce a level of RP, and use the ban/xp drain/delevel stick liberally on those who obviously metagame (OOC information ICly), godmod (dictate what their actions do, to the determent of others--it's fine if you RP missing, but you can't hit every time, doesn't make sense), or abuse the death realm as a means of transportation.  I know, sounds hard for the GM team to do, but it can be done (I've seen this done before in NWN, that's where I'm getting most of these ideas, and with a smaller team of DMs then there are GMs here, from what I know of it.  I will admit, the server is capped at 60 players there (what's the average online here?  It'd make policing here hard, that much I'll admit.  Might need more GMs.), but it almost always is full, or past full (61/60) during daytime (est) hours, and I haven't seen it drop below 20 people (5 in the morning, EST) without a crash or reset).

I installed that updater thing, and now the setup and client apps wont open at all

From what I understand, the updater shouldn't be run at this time.  Because you ran it, I think you'll need to reinstall in order to fix the fact that you just filled your client with a lot of outdated files.  You will note that you were told to read the Mac Client Status before following the Mac guide, and I will note that it says "Do NOT run the updater as the binaries have not yet been uploaded yet."

You were having graphical glitches, it had a point for those with graphical glitches... after reinstalling, because that's what I think you'll need to do, try solving your problem by following point "IMPORTANT1" in that guide.

----

Although I was under the impression that it's now off by default--it's certainly off already in my download.

And yet, the "director" happily gives interviews that completely contradict all of it. Suddenly, there is good vs evil - two major realms (one good, one evil), big wars between them etc. Same pattern as with "Alpha", "Pre-Alpha" and "Beta", it seems.

Eh, I wouldn't say that's Good v. Evil.  The Death Realm is a place people go when they die.  Not really an 'evil' place, as it were... Nor is Yliakum necessarily a good place.  Big wars is the exception, though... but it still isn't really good v. evil.  (despite the mention that the Death Realm is where evil characters could start building their webs, I would think it'd be much easier to do that in the living realm, where you know your enemies and don't have to compete with the silly people building their webs in the death realm, who're sure to bump heads often.

Okay, so I recently completed a quest and got an item called "hydlaa housing layout". I have no idea what its for  I don't even know how to use it or view it. Is it some form of a map or something? Can someone inform me please 

*Points out that the FIRST thing he would do if he got such a document is try to sell it on the black market, especially in Planeshift, where Garon is always looking to make a quick tria*


NOTE:  This isn't meant to be a spoiler/clue.  I've never heard of this item, in fact, and all I know about it is it's name.  Sco---err... not a member of that.... swimmer's honor

1.) How big is the community?  Big enough that there will be people who you like less then others.  Big enough that there are better and worse players.  Not gigantic, however, meaning that really well known players are really well known players, they aren't just well known among certain circles.  As Karyuu says, it can be nice.  (or it can be mean)
2.) How good is the game?  I believe the term is 'uber', especially if you can roleplay.
3.) Is there pvp?  Some.  There's a pvp room and dueling, but you should have a in character reason for doing either of those.  If you don't know what I'm talking about, head ye over to the newbie forum and read the guides on roleplay.
4.) How good are the quests if any?  There's over 100 quests, and they're fun, although the NPC system can be a little bit frustrating.  Just a little bit.  It takes a bit of learning, and once they get all the quests on the same wavelength, it should be easier (if they haven't done that already, of course).
5.) How many differant monsters are there?  A good number, although not a huge number.  The worst monsters, of course, are the other players themselves when they play evil characters
6.) Are there any bosses?  Well.... Laanx, the server, is the uber boss.  You  manage to crash him (not through exploiting a bug), and you "win".  Of course, he crashes often enough that there's lots of "winners" and nobody ever loses... Talad is another boss, and the head honcho.  Each of the Devs, of course, can be a boss in their own right, and so can most gms.  Of course, they have to have set themselves up as a boss, and you have to have an IC reason for killing them
7.) Is it group involving?  Very much so, if you don't want it to be boring.
8.) How big is the map?  There's numerous areas, and right now it has very little of the final thing completed and takes ~15 minutes to get from one side to the other (BD to Oja or back, and iirc) without extra potions for energy (allows running, which is how most people get around).
9.) Is there lots to do? Yes.  Infact, if your imagination is good, the number of things you can do reaches towards infinity, as long as you stay within the settings.  And much more on the way as far as the actual game goes, too.
10.) Are there proffesions? If so how many?  No specific professions, although many choose to take up one or another, such as metallurgy or the like.  Mining is a favorite too.
11.) How many classes?  No specific "classes", each person has equal opportunity for any given skill.
12.) How many races?  Read the guide, as I can't remember the number off the top of my head and that's good knowledge to have anyways... hmm.... *counts off on his fingers* 12 or so, if I'm not missing anything...